:bawl:

New research has shown that goldfish can remember pain for at least a day, shattering the widespread misconception that these fish have a three-second memory span yet again.

Peter Laming, Sarah Millsopp and Rebecca Dunlop of the Queen's University in Belfast are to publish the results of a new study in the journal Applied Animal Behaviour Science which says that goldfish can learn to avoid parts of their tank in which they receive electric shocks for at least 24 hours.

Trout showed similar responses to the shocks, but strayed into the areas in which shocks were administered more frequently than goldfish.

Dunlop told The Telegraph: "Angling is not considered to be a cruel sport as it has been assumed that fish cannot perceive pain. Rather it is a reflex action.

"This paper shows that pain avoidance in fish does not seem to be a reflex response, rather one that is learned, remembered and is changed according to different circumstances. Therefore, if fish can perceive pain, then angling cannot be continued to be considered a non-cruel sport."

And then there are lobsters who are hideously boiled alive and prawns that actually feel pain despite being invertebrates.

STOP THIS TORTURE NOW! :mad:

I always thought boiling lobsters and crabs live was cruel. What is the big deal killing them quickly first? It doesn't take long to kill them. They sure taste good once their done.

I watch Iron Chef and I'm always shocked when they start chopping it in half or tearing the tail off when its still alive.
Boiling it doesn't bother me. Its a fairly quick death.

I can't watch iron chef. It freaks me out. There was one episode where a chef was chopping up an octopus. It kept trying to get away. The individual legs were crawling out of the bowl. I know it was mostly reflexes but eeww!

Yes, fish feel pain. This discussion has taken place already some time ago though.. :shrug:

I don't think fish feel pain the way we consider pain to be felt.

Anyone who has gone fishing and hooked a fish knows that they fight against the line, tugging, pulling and generally applying as much pressure to the hook and line as they can.

Now imagine if you had a hook in your mouth. Would you be tugging, pulling and applying pressure to the hook?

I don't think fish feel pain the way we consider pain to be felt.

Anyone who has gone fishing and hooked a fish knows that they fight against the line, tugging, pulling and generally applying as much pressure to the hook and line as they can.

Now imagine if you had a hook in your mouth. Would you be tugging, pulling and applying pressure to the hook?

You bet I would ! The fish are panicking, they think they are being eaten or something.
What if you found a hook in your mouth tugging you skyward ? Wouldn't you want to get away no matter what !?

Animals will chew their own legs off to get out of leg hold traps.

Animals will chew their own legs off to get out of leg hold traps.

Yes, and so will people if they still have some will to live left..

Yes, fish feel pain. This discussion has taken place already some time ago though.. :shrug:

So has every other discussion, Enmos. :rolleyes:

Yes, and so will people if they still have some will to live left..

That happened a few years ago...some guy stuck up a mountain sawed his arm off.

Then there was a bloke called John Bobbit who...er..:confused:

So has every other discussion, Enmos. :rolleyes:

Hey, I was just saying.. maybe you didn't know. Anyway, it might be interesting for you to look up that other thread.

That happened a few years ago...some guy stuck up a mountain sawed his arm off.

Then there was a bloke called John Bobbit who...er..:confused:

So, fish tugging on the line doesn't proof they don't feel pain.

While I can't say definitively that fish do not feel pain I tend to agree with Dr. Rose. Fish might feel something but I don't think it is what humans call pain.

"Do fish feel pain?
The world's foremost expert on the subject is Dr. James D. Rose of the University of Wyoming. He's spent 30 years working on questions of neurology, examining data on the responses of animals to painful stimuli. In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them.

But doesn't it hurt to have a hook in your mouth?

There's a big difference between pain and the perception of pain (which scientists call "nociception"). Dr. Rose explained to London's Telegraph newspaper:

"Pain is predicated on awareness … A person who is anaesthetized in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain."
I don't imagine animal-rights activists are very fond of Dr. Rose.

Right you are. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), for instance, operates a misleading "Fishing Hurts" propaganda campaign based on the work of a few "neutral" experts. (PETA says Dr. Rose isn't neutral because he enjoys fishing.) One of PETA's experts is a "Professor of Animal Welfare" who also believes it's cruel to raise faster-growing cows and turkeys. Another is a microbiologist who claims it's "unthinkable that fish do not have pain receptors" -- despite having done no scientific work with fish -- and equates our "lack of justice and compassion to other animals" with human slavery.

It's worth noting that PETA has sought fishing bans in state parks and called for a Constitutional amendment protecting fish. In 2005 when PETA tried to scare fishermen away from their sport by claiming fish contain "poison," campaign director Bruce Friedrich admitted his strategy on an animal-rights mailing list: "For people who don't care about the suffering of fish, I suspect this will terrify them into not eating them."

What about lobsters and crabs? Do they feel pain when they're boiled or steamed?

A 2005 Norwegian study reported that lobsters and crabs don't have the capacity to feel pain either. The British Guardian newspaper detailed the study's findings, explaining that lobsters and crabs have only about 100 thousand neurons. Many vertebrates have upwards of 100 billion. "

http://fishscam.com/faqPain.cfm

Of course they fish feel pain, they have to. Crustaceans might not be as sensitive because they have an external skeleton.

My friends in the Chesapeake Bay are kind to the crabs they eat. Before boiling they cut their face off with scissors.

Of course they fish feel pain, they have to. Crustaceans might not be as sensitive because they have an external skeleton.

My friends in the Chesapeake Bay are kind to the crabs they eat. Before boiling they cut their face off with scissors.

yeah, I agree. I don't even know why people would think they don't hurt.

And how do you cut off a crabs face??

with a knife.

or scissors

But where is their face?? How far back does it begin?

About half way. Form either end.

Any sharp implement will do.

There's a soft part on the front. Anyway, there's no way to kill an animal without some pain involved. Knowing that they feel pain isn't enough to make me stop eating them.

True. good point.

If you dont like it, turn veg

animals have a considerable survival instinct. If an animal asumes that there life is endanger they'll take the pain to get away. Humans aren't exactly like that. We consider the pain first. In animals pain seems to be a signal to engage survival mode.

same as me really.

;)

Pain is an evolutionary survival trait. Any higher animal like a fish certainly feels pain as a warning signal.

Certain necessary processes continue independently in an animal so that whereas a fish remembers about being fed every day and what to do when the next feeding comes along, that is not a sign of intelligence among them.

As to lobsters, I think if anything were thrown into a pot of boiling water, they would instantly die of the equivalent of a heart attack. It is said that the noise they make is merely air coming out of and going through their bodies. Burned corpses will sometimes sit up due to the gases inside them.

While I can't say definitively that fish do not feel pain I tend to agree with Dr. Rose. Fish might feel something but I don't think it is what humans call pain.

"Do fish feel pain?
The world's foremost expert on the subject is Dr. James D. Rose of the University of Wyoming. He's spent 30 years working on questions of neurology, examining data on the responses of animals to painful stimuli. In 2003 Rose published a landmark study in the journal Reviews of Fisheries Science, concluding that animals need specific regions of the cerebral cortex in order to feel pain. And fish do not have them.

But doesn't it hurt to have a hook in your mouth?

There's a big difference between pain and the perception of pain (which scientists call "nociception"). Dr. Rose explained to London's Telegraph newspaper:

"Pain is predicated on awareness … A person who is anaesthetized in an operating theatre will still respond physically to an external stimulus, but he or she will not feel pain. Anyone who has seen a chicken with its head cut off will know that, while its body can respond to stimuli, it cannot be feeling pain."
I don't imagine animal-rights activists are very fond of Dr. Rose.

Right you are. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), for instance, operates a misleading "Fishing Hurts" propaganda campaign based on the work of a few "neutral" experts. (PETA says Dr. Rose isn't neutral because he enjoys fishing.) One of PETA's experts is a "Professor of Animal Welfare" who also believes it's cruel to raise faster-growing cows and turkeys. Another is a microbiologist who claims it's "unthinkable that fish do not have pain receptors" -- despite having done no scientific work with fish -- and equates our "lack of justice and compassion to other animals" with human slavery.

It's worth noting that PETA has sought fishing bans in state parks and called for a Constitutional amendment protecting fish. In 2005 when PETA tried to scare fishermen away from their sport by claiming fish contain "poison," campaign director Bruce Friedrich admitted his strategy on an animal-rights mailing list: "For people who don't care about the suffering of fish, I suspect this will terrify them into not eating them."

What about lobsters and crabs? Do they feel pain when they're boiled or steamed?

A 2005 Norwegian study reported that lobsters and crabs don't have the capacity to feel pain either. The British Guardian newspaper detailed the study's findings, explaining that lobsters and crabs have only about 100 thousand neurons. Many vertebrates have upwards of 100 billion. "

http://fishscam.com/faqPain.cfm

Sorry but what bullshit. Pain is pain. Fish feel it, just like you.

But where is their face?? How far back does it begin?

A crab's face :)
Oh uhm.. better follow the link, the image is a bit large.
http://plaza.ufl.edu/mtrager/crab2.JPG

All animals (including fish, whale etc), insects and crabs feel pain.

All animals (including fish, whale etc), insects and crabs feel pain.


Of course they do.

That we even have to discuss this is a tragic testament to industrial man's lack of empathy with nature.

Hey its not "my" pain.

All animals (including fish, whale etc), insects and crabs feel pain.That's not a very scientific thing to say on a science website. All vertebrates and all cartilaginous fishes? Sure. We all have a central nervous system with lots of sensory nerves connecting our skin to our brain. We humans and our closest companion animals all have consciousness so we extrapolate that attribute to the other animals that are built like us.

But arthropods--insects, arachnids, myriapedes, crustaceans and a few odds and ends? They have nerves but there's no centralization. Much of their activity is what in a vertebrate would be called reflex: nerve impulses traveling to a regional nerve center, triggering an autonomic response. Do they feel the touch that causes them to back away from danger, or does it just happen?

Do arthropods even have a consciousness with which to feel pain--or anything else? And supposing that they do, do the lower phyla have it? AFAIK flatworms don't have anything resembling a brain. Amoebae don't have anything resembling nerves. How could these animals feel pain?

A crab's face :)
Oh uhm.. better follow the link, the image is a bit large.
http://plaza.ufl.edu/mtrager/crab2.JPG

But where does it start? I would hate to miss part of it and it keeps walking around thinking its alive (like this chicken (http://www.neilslade.com/mike.html) did)

http://www.neilslade.com/gifs/mike.jpg
Notice his face on the floor??

Do arthropods even have a consciousness with which to feel pain--or anything else?

Why limit consciousness to brains and nerves? I see no reason to assume that even atoms could not feel something. Atoms are in motion, like microorganisms, so what causes that motion? If consciousness causes animals and humans to move, why couldn't consciousness also cause insects, microorganisms and even atoms to move? What difference is there between consciousness and natural laws?

AFAIK flatworms don't have anything resembling a brain. Amoebae don't have anything resembling nerves. How could these animals feel pain?

Because if you cut a worm in half you can see (scientific observation) that it's hurt because it reacts like any other animal. But I doubt insects are as conscious as big animals, so they might also experience their feelings as less extreme.

It seems some posters are anthropomorphizing all living things. Humans and higher animals feel pain (an admitted) therefore all animals and even non-living things like atoms feel pain. While this may be a great emotional argument that is all it is, an emotional argument.

That's not a very scientific thing to say on a science website. All vertebrates and all cartilaginous fishes? Sure. We all have a central nervous system with lots of sensory nerves connecting our skin to our brain. We humans and our closest companion animals all have consciousness so we extrapolate that attribute to the other animals that are built like us.

But arthropods--insects, arachnids, myriapedes, crustaceans and a few odds and ends? They have nerves but there's no centralization. Much of their activity is what in a vertebrate would be called reflex: nerve impulses traveling to a regional nerve center, triggering an autonomic response. Do they feel the touch that causes them to back away from danger, or does it just happen?

Do arthropods even have a consciousness with which to feel pain--or anything else? And supposing that they do, do the lower phyla have it? AFAIK flatworms don't have anything resembling a brain. Amoebae don't have anything resembling nerves. How could these animals feel pain?

They feel it but may not be consciously aware of it.

But where does it start? I would hate to miss part of it and it keeps walking around thinking its alive (like this chicken (http://www.neilslade.com/mike.html) did)

http://www.neilslade.com/gifs/mike.jpg
Notice his face on the floor??

I don't know, maybe you can find some image of a dissected crab or something. My knowledge of crab anatomy is insufficient to accurately answer the question. But then, I highly doubt the ones cutting off the crab faces know exactly where the heads start, they just cut away a chunk ;)

That's not a very scientific thing to say on a science website. All vertebrates and all cartilaginous fishes? Sure. We all have a central nervous system with lots of sensory nerves connecting our skin to our brain. We humans and our closest companion animals all have consciousness so we extrapolate that attribute to the other animals that are built like us.

But arthropods--insects, arachnids, myriapedes, crustaceans and a few odds and ends? They have nerves but there's no centralization. Much of their activity is what in a vertebrate would be called reflex: nerve impulses traveling to a regional nerve center, triggering an autonomic response. Do they feel the touch that causes them to back away from danger, or does it just happen?

Of course they have centralization. read a frikking text book. and don't accuse other people of saying unscientific things

FFS

frikking dissected locust brains with my own hands.

Try cutting their heads off.

See how well organized the response is from the rest of the body.

of course, they can feel pain even if they can't say 'hey buddy!! that hurts you jerk!!!!'

poor fish can't speak. cute things

It seems some posters are anthropomorphizing all living things. Humans and higher animals feel pain (an admitted) therefore all animals and even non-living things like atoms feel pain. While this may be a great emotional argument that is all it is, an emotional argument.

energy is imaginative. i'm not assigning human traits to energy. instead, human traits are the result of energy's characteristics.

So, fish tugging on the line doesn't proof they don't feel pain.

Its an instinctive response.

Fish are intelligant, my fish no the time of day when they are going to be fed, always at the surface, and recognise the colour of the food pot, cause as soon as they see it they swim frantically. And when a new fish is introduced into the pond they greet it.

Its an instinctive response.

Exactly..

Even if they don't feel pain it's hardly humane to impale them through the mouth with hooks.

Even if they don't feel pain it's hardly humane to impale them through the mouth with hooks.

animals kill animals for food, so why shouldn't we? after all, science says that we are animals...

Why limit consciousness to brains and nerves? I see no reason to assume that even atoms could not feel something.Somewhere else in the universe, sure! But here on earth, with what this planet's biochemistry and evolutionary processes have to work with? How?Atoms are in motion, like microorganisms, so what causes that motion? If consciousness causes animals and humans to move, why couldn't consciousness also cause insects, microorganisms and even atoms to move? What difference is there between consciousness and natural laws?Consciousness is not the cause of all animal movement. Your autonomic nervous system causes your own body to breathe when you forget to think about it. You have a vestigial reflex center in your knee that causes your leg to jump when your doctor hits it with a hammer. Birds have much more highly developed reflex centers that help them fly; that's why headless chicken bodies--which by definition have no consciousness--try to escape by taking flight.

I've been corrected on the issue of consciousness in insects, but I'll stand by my thesis in general and (after checking this time :)) say that sponges and corals do not have anything remotely resembling a brain in functionality. It's quite easy for animal motion to be generated by reflex.

As for atoms, well I'm a little better educated in physics than in zoology. Atoms move in compliance with the laws of the universe--the "natural laws" you refer to. Ultimately they're reacting to the forces of gravity and electromagnetism, although at a macro level for our own convenience of study we organize those forces into patterns and give them names like friction, pressure, buoyancy, etc. I suppose you could call this an analog of a reflex: the universe is "programmed" to work that way so the atoms simply follow some fairly simple rules. There is no need to postulate a consciousness unless you want to get metaphysical and speculate about the "programming."

Of course they have centralization.So what's the big deal about vertebrates and cartilaginous fish being unique because we have a central nervous system? Do other phyla have it too?

....But then, I highly doubt the ones cutting off the crab faces know exactly where the heads start, they just cut away a chunk

I think that's horrible!!! :(

I think that's horrible!!! :(

That's humans for ya.. they probably don't even start to think about what the animals might feel.

fish have emotional feelings and can form attachments.

fish have emotional feelings and can form attachments.

LMFAO!!!
Oh, were you serious?

That's humans for ya.. they probably don't even start to think about what the animals might feel.

I don't care if they do it right and kill it instantly, But if they didn't even know what they are chopping off, its just horrible!

Oh, were you serious?People say that koi are downright pet-like, once you've had them for a few years.

they all have different personalities.

I don't care if they do it right and kill it instantly, But if they didn't even know what they are chopping off, its just horrible!

Like I said, that's humans for ya..

People say that koi are downright pet-like, once you've had them for a few years.

or once the owners humanize them and name them and buy them toys.

My koi are fish, not pets. Of course I do put a leash on them and take them for a walk around the neighborhood whenever we have heavy rain. It's fun watching them flop from puddle to puddle.

My koi are fish, not pets. Of course I do put a leash on them and take them for a walk around the neighborhood whenever we have heavy rain. It's fun watching them flop from puddle to puddle.

LOL you are sick ;)

if i stick a battery to my tongue i feel a sensation isnt painful but, nevertheless, like pain i would still try to avoid it. if that was the only sort of 'pain' that an organism felt then would we say it felt pain or not?

So what's the big deal about vertebrates and cartilaginous fish being unique because we have a central nervous system? Do other phyla have it too?

all bilateral symmetric animals have it per definition unless they lose it due to developmental reprogramming.

It's only a matter of degree.

Like with everything in biology.

Your autonomic nervous system causes your own body to breathe when you forget to think about it.
my subconscious mind makes me breath. it also beats my heart.

the universe is "programmed" to work that way so the atoms simply follow some fairly simple rules.

if two magnets that attract is a natural law, is it also a natural law when a man and a woman are attracted? thoughts cause this attraction in humans, so i think it's also thoughts (subconscious) that cause magnets to attract.

if consciousness controls us, it controls everything. if we are made of matter, everything is made of matter. if god controls natural laws, he controls us too.

There is no need to postulate a consciousness unless you want to get metaphysical and speculate about the "programming."

i would say the opposite: there is no reason to postulate a natural law

but it's all the same... just different perspectives...

People say that koi are downright pet-like, once you've had them for a few years.

They can be taught tricks using the same clicker-training techniques they use for cats and dogs.

my subconscious mind makes me breathe. it also beats my heart.Absolutely not true. Your autonomic nervous system is controlled by your hindbrain, the ancient animal part of your brain. Your unconscious ("subconscious" is old Freudian terminology) and your conscious mind are in your forebrain, the part whose unique enlargement makes us human by giving us the ability to override our instincts with reason and learning.if two magnets that attract is a natural law, is it also a natural law when a man and a woman are attracted?You're getting into semantics here. Electromagnetism is one of the four basic forces in the universe. (The other three are gravity and the strong and weak nuclear forces.) The equations describing the workings of electromagnetism are relatively simple and we call them colloquially "natural laws." The "force" that attracts humans of opposite sexes to each other is a much more complex combination of biochemistry and personality. You could say that biochemistry is derived from natural laws, but it's not a natural law in itself. Personality has a large element of choice in it, so to an extent it is a textbook example of humans consciously using their reasoning and learning to override the natural laws that drive their biochemistry.Thoughts cause this attraction in humansAs I just pointed out, thoughts are only partially responsible for sexual attraction. Some of it is indeed biochemistry, which is a collection of natural laws at work.so i think it's also thoughts (subconscious) that cause magnets to attract.Your reasoning is derailed. Your premises were incorrect so your conclusion is invalid.if consciousness controls us, it controls everything. if we are made of matter, everything is made of matter. if god controls natural laws, he controls us too.As already noted, consciousness does not totally control us. Many of the most important things we do that keep us alive are not under conscious control.

They can be taught tricks using the same clicker-training techniques they use for cats and dogs.

That doesn't mean all that much. Planaria can be taught to turn right or left.

That's why I don't fish. And I come from a family that loves to fish. Boiling a crab alive is extremely cruel.

Your unconscious ("subconscious" is old Freudian terminology)

subconscious is a better word because nothing is really unconscious.

The equations describing the workings of electromagnetism are relatively simple and we call them colloquially "natural laws."

you could also create equations for animal behavior and call them "natural laws", but that doesn't mean they are...

animal behavior isn't as predictable because animal bodies are more complex than rocks and magnets, so consciousness can express itself in greater variety. humans are even more unpredictable/free...

As I just pointed out, thoughts are only partially responsible for sexual attraction. Some of it is indeed biochemistry, which is a collection of natural laws at work.

children have no sexuality... is there a difference in their biochemistry? if the biochemistry becomes different when you become an adult... what causes it to become different?

Many of the most important things we do that keep us alive are not under conscious control.

some people can control their heartbeat consciously. it's just a matter of becoming conscious of your subconscious parts.

I can't watch iron chef. It freaks me out. There was one episode where a chef was chopping up an octopus. It kept trying to get away. The individual legs were crawling out of the bowl. I know it was mostly reflexes but eeww!

thats nothing in china they eat live octopi

So - mutilating the crab before you boil it is kind? :bugeye:

Children and sexuality...you need to define what you mean by sexuality. If it is an awareness of sex then children certainly do have sexuality. If you mean the drive to copulate - that's a hormonal switch. The genes aren't different - different genes are "turned on."

" you could also create equations for animal behavior and call them "natural laws", but that doesn't mean they are..."

That was the point that was being made. Natural Laws are separate and distinct from behavior - but can have an affect on said behavior.

At best, any equation you could come up with to describe behavior is going to have to be statistical. "Natural laws" are hard-math based equations that describe events that have been proven to occur invariable when specific conditions exist.

You are still arguing semantics. Get your definitions straight. Remember - each profession has its own jargon (vocabulary used with a specific definition in mind) and you must be able to adhere to the correct definition.

Sorry - getting off the point.

animals kill animals for food, so why shouldn't we? after all, science says that we are animals...

Because unless you're an Inuit, you don't actually need to kill animals for food.

Because unless you're an Inuit, you don't actually need to kill animals for food.

We have a lot of poor people here in MI who live off deer meat. I think they most certainly do need it to survive.

That was my point. No need to be so pedantic. If you actually need to hunt to survive, yes, it is morally acceptable. If you don't, it isn't.