Remember Dr. Azmi Bishara?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mr.Spock, Feb 22, 2010.

  1. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,938
    This guy:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azmi_Bishara

    Well, this is what he had to say about the Palestinian people:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3n5-yG-6dU


    "Well, I dont think there is a Palestinian Nation at all.
    I think there is an Arab Nation, I always thought so and I didnt change my mind.
    I dont think there is a Palestinian Nation, I think its a Colonial invention Palestinian Nation.
    When were there any Palestinians? Where did it come from? What
    I think there is an Arab Nation, I never turned to be a Palestinian Nationalist, despite of my decisive struggle against the Occupation.
    I think that until the end of the 19TH century, Palestine was the South of Great Syria."
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    You do know that doesn't make Israel right. just because his idea of how the palestinians should exercise their right to self determination is different than most doesn't mean the jews/zionists had any right to steal it.
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,938
    reading understanding is not one of your best abilities.

    if I were you I would take my money back from my teachers.
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    Actually it is. I guess you just don't understand the concepot of self determination not suprising considering you think Israel was created via self determination. Choosing to be apart of another group is self determination. IE. his view was that the palestinians were part of greater syria and should have worked to link palestine and syria. That still self determination for the people of palstine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2010
  8. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,938
    do everyone a favor, and refrain yourself from participating in this discussion. you are not contributing anything.

    go back, watch the video, read the translation and then call me.
     
  9. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    In other worlds I made you look bad. Just because you don't like the ramifications doesn't mean I'm not contributing.

    what do you want me to call you?


    first off that translation is dishonest. He said a lot more than that. and as I said it doesn't fucking matter. The palestinains(weather a seperate people or just resident of palestine) had/have the right to self determination that was stripped of them. You have made a great argument in favor of greater Israel you have just shown how debased their arguments are.
     
  10. superstring01 Moderator

    Messages:
    12,110
    Mod Notes: Mr.Spock is suspended for seven days for flaming and posting personal attacks against PJDude.
     
  11. kororoti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    252
    This thread is an interesting way of framing things. If you believe Spock's premises, then it follows that the formation of the state of Israel was done by annexing some territory from Syria, instead of destroying the state of Palestine, and changing it into the state of Israel.

    Under those circumstances, it would be no different than if say... Russia were to concede its Siberian territory to China. The people living on the land could be allowed to stay, or they might be asked to leave. If they were asked to leave, then Russia would have the obligation of absorbing them, since they were Russian citizens at the time of the change.

    I think the question can be settled by asking which national government claimed the territory at that time. .... now to go look that up...
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  12. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    Here you go again with the same old untrue song about the Jews STEALING the land, dude!!! You still do not realize that they actually BOUGHT and PAID for it. (Even though it's been brought to your attention before.):bugeye:

    If I bought the house you are living in Norcross, would you then go out and brazenly claim I stole it???????:bugeye:
     
  13. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    So all that land was bought and the palestinians are just whining because they got good money? No its hasn't been brought to my attention because its a lie. They bought about 5% of the land that conprises Israel the rest was gained through force. Just because you want ISrael to be legit it isn't. the land was stolen no matter how many times you claim it wasn't it still was. also the steal comment wasn't refering to land but to the right of self determination.

    off topic question you are just using norcross as a filler right?


    If you bought it from someone other than me than yes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  14. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    Now back to my point. that its irrelevant if the palestinians viewed them selves as part of another state or a separate one it was(and still is) there right to choose the political status of palestine. In other words Spock ot doesn't mean that Israel's creation was legit.
     
  15. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    Ho-hum. <yawn> There's no point in trying to teach the truth to someone who WANTS to believe their favorite lie. :shrug:
     
  16. kororoti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    252
    Buying individual plots is not relevant to changing political boundaries. Changing political boundaries by way of purchase requires you to compensate the government that claims the territory. Ie. The Lousiana Purchase, where the USA paid a sum of money to France in exchange for the western territories that France claimed is very very different from say.... and American real estate developer who buys some land in Mexico.

    What portion of Israel the Jews actually bought was like in the second example. Members of the Jewish community had been buying up real estate in the area for a long time before the country of Israel was actually created. However, I'm pretty sure it was like pjdude1219 mentioned: they only ever managed to purchase a small fraction of the total amount.

    No. It's not irrelevant at all. If they were citizens of Syria at the time of the territorial re-assignment, then they remain citizens of Syria, not necessarily citizens of the new country. Residency does not automatically grant citizenship.

    However, all but the oldest Palestinians alive today were born inside of Israel's borders after its creation, which should grant them a sort of squatter's right to citizenship. The country was created in 1948, so any Pali under the age of 62 is a native by birth.
     
  17. otheadp Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,853
    The point is that today's conflict is framed in terms of a "palestinian people" who used to have an independent country where Israel exists today, and who owned the land first, who victimized whom first, Israel made the "palestinian people" refugees, etc.

    That's how most of the public who hear news about this perceive it. The non-demagogues who just hear things on the evening news and might even pay attention once in a while.

    The Arab propaganda machine has succeeded over the decades into re-framing the conflict into this false premise.

    That's the point of the thread, and not who purchased what land.

    Consequently, decision makers in the west have to treat this problem based on this idiotic lie, which is why they're being ridiculously unfair towards Israel.

    The reason that there is this concept of a make-believe "nation" called "palestinians" is because over 6 decades of Arab deliberate neglect and incitement, the cold war, and UN's enabling of this crap, there has been this birth of a new identity, that is now treated as if it's an ethnicity or a nationality. The difference is huge in terms of how this conflict should be treated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  18. kororoti Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    252
    I'm having a hard time determining what, if any, national identity Palestine had. Until the end of WW1 it was still just part of the Ottoman Empire. I'm not sure whether it enjoyed status as a province unto its own, or was just considered part of Turkey.

    Either way, Palestine, as we know it today, became British territory after that war was over, so it was theirs to do with as they saw fit. I highly doubt it was ever considered part of Syria, though.

    http://www.npr.org/news/specials/mideast/the_west/mandates_map.html

    Hard to say whether those territories were named by the British as a way of defining their territories, or because they had real significance.
     
  19. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    I agree, the Palestinians as a eternally separate people for the other arab states was a made up concept, design such so the other arab states could forgo any obligations to these people after the failures of the 6-day war and the October War. Between 1948-1967 the arabs states rule over the lands now called the Palestine territories without compliant, after losing those lands they suddenly said it was Israelis problem now in order to amplify a perpetual sore against Israel that was started when the arab states refused to assimilate the refugees as complete citizens. Israel on the other hand took in as many of the jews that were kicked out of arab states as they could, the Arab states then acquired all those banished jew's property and assists, totally more then 4 times Israel in land area, while simultaneously putting the arab refugees in camps and squalor, telling them they would get their homes back when israel was defeated. This whole problem could have been solved decades ago if the arab states had simply taken in the refugees, but by claiming the refugees are a separate people they make this solution seem impossible.
     
  20. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    ah yes the palestinian debate where the same arguments rooted in bigotry andhate are used over and over again and no progress was made. The palestinian had such a hatred for a national idienty that they were clamoring for independence before the british ever got a hold of them. The Israel absorbed the jews arguement is specious. the whole reason they were able to was because of the removal of palestinians. ITs funny really to see electric use this argument. You can't remove Israelis to give their lands back because that's a crime(No it isn't. the legal precedent for taken stolen things from decedents of the thief and returning it to decendent of the person who it was stolen from exists) but want the arabs to pay for Israeli expelling palestinians from their homes. Its the same old shit from the pro Israel bigots who twist law and logic its all the arabs fault no the fact the jews/zionists wanted their land and used force to take it is irrelevant to them.
     
  21. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    so the truth?

    Right because the media is so pro palestinian.

    its not a false premise

    well than tell your buddies to stay on topic.

    So treating the palestinian like human beings is unfair to Israel. The palestinians are a people. ITs not a lie its not something manufactured.

    this is a bald faced but its would passes for argument for your side. They are treated like a nationality because they are one. This post is just naked bigotry designed to destroy a people for your own peopl's gain.



    This thread show just the absolute idiocy that passes for argument on the pro-Israeli side. Lets for example assume the argument by spock, otheadp, and electric are right that the palestinians aren't a separate people and merely an offshoot of another arab people. Does it matter and have a major effect on the arguments requiring a great retooling? No. Because the root problem is still the same. Rather than follow the UN charter and allow the people of palestine to chose their own political status that was stolen from them and given to foreign zionist jews. Even if your right Israel still illegitimate and the people of palestinian have been denied their rights. The fact that this argument is made with out understanding it changes nothing even if correct shows the arrogance inherent in the Israeli position. In other words your argument is that depending on the palestinians choice of how they were going to exercise their right to self determination could have validated taking it away from them.

     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,523
    Whole fucking countries?? where is the legal precedent of taking a whole country and giving it to another peoples that don't even live their now? And in doing so you would desuetude millions based on some collective guilt, you can't punish an entire people like that! Again when pressured on the logical conclusion "so would you advocate the murder of children" is mention you get all defensive, you claim you would just have them removed without considering how likely that would affect their livelihoods and survivability, you claim you would simply put the Palestinians in charge and if they murder the Jews well that not your fault, or worse you just blow it all of as some kind of insult! You just can't accept that your advocating the oppression, subjugation and even murder of an entire peoples as a solution to the same thing, resulting in net zero improvement, but to you it makes sense because those people deserve it, those children deserved it. To you they are the children of thieves and they should be punished like thieves! No, many of those people and there progeny were kicked out of Arab states on no account of their own and came to Israel, america and other states merely seeking refuge. They stole nothing, owners of that land whether rightful or not said they could come, gave them refuge, the story happened may times before, America, Australia, China, etc, people moved in ignorant to those displaced and you can't go and put the original people back without doing the same crime of displacing or oppressing people. Two wrong don't make a right.

    The arabs made the israelis pay, they took everything from 800,000+ jews, took their land, took their money and then let countries like Israeli and America take these dirt poor people in, people that did not speak the same language or have the same culture, fuck israel had to resurrect and recreate a died language as to get all these different groups of jews to speak to each other, what did the arabs need to do with the Palestinians, nothing! They speak the same language their culture was the same! But instead the arab states kept all the Jewish land and money and then jammed the arab refugees up against israel and gave these people total shit, they could have easily absorbed the refugees and still made a profit from all the jews they kicked out, so no they payed nothing and only gained through theft and hatred, and now there is no chances of fixing it, now there are too many Palestinians they are to dam fucking poor and radicalized, they can't be assimilated in mass to any neighboring country without causing significant upheaval, like for example demanding the Jordanian king be overthrown and replaced with a democracy (or a theocratic democracy), like in black septemberr, gee how wrong would that be.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    No not at all, Israel could and should make reparations to the Palestinians, but calling for the removal of Israel is to much and unfair, its making a wrong to correct a wrong. And you call me a bigot and pro-Israeli yet can't stand to be called out for advocating murdering children via direct or indirect conclusion of your beliefs, refuse to accept your goals would result in the suffering of others or worse you just don't want to admit you want them to suffer.
     
  23. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,479
    Why and as for the legal precendent for giving a country away to people that don't live their how about ISRAEL your fully content to punish all the palestinians for a crime they didn't even commit.
    Because its whole sale slander.
    they won't. They have shown consistently that even with all the abuse that has been heaped on them they are willing to work with the jewish people for a brighter tomorrow. and the considerions for the Israelis lively hoods are irrelvevant. the fact they would be harmed by return their loot isn't the palestinians fault.
    It isn't in insult its libel. Your intentionally lying about my beliefs for malicious reasons.
    Because that's not what I'm advocating. You can't judge the palestinians by what the jews did.
    they didn't gain it legally they have no right to it. its the fundemental basis of property law.
    they were kicked out because of their peoples willing ness to go to war to abosrb all jewish communities into ISrael.
    and that irrelevant. if No matter how much you want to pretend that this argument is solely about how those poor jews were persicuted it isn't. Its about the law and property and the law states that anything taken illegally needs to be returned to the owners or if they died the owners decendents. Your hypocrisy is on this is amazing. If someone were to say that it was wrong to take the art work from nazi's children to give back to jewish gfamilies you'd be screaming to no end but when its jews that benefit you turn a blind eye.
    different eras different rules. and it isn't a wrong. only in your fucked up head is returning stolen property a wrong.



    That's not making Israel pay. Israel was set up for the purpose of those people leaving to come their.
    They had no obligation to take them in. Your just trying to shift blame to make your self feel better. ITs the same shit with you arabs bad jews good.
    why should jordinians be denied their country because the jews stole the palestinians. You just want a rolling mass of people getting fucked ovewr simply so the jews can get a state.



    their is nothing unfair in it. The only thing unfair is you demanding a crime to stand.
    its not a wrong to enforce the law.
    You are a bigot you would deny palestinians their rights simply for being palestinian.
    I don't want them to suffer. And your right I will not stand being libeled. The simple truth is you have a problem with the fact the law doesn't sup[port the ISraelis and you wish to throw it out.

    electruc we have been over this. Just because the Israeli have gotten away with this long and made the enforcing the law a harsher sentence on them is no reason to. Your essential argument is if someone gets away with large scale crime they should never be tried for it. The palestinians have a legal right to get their land back. I'm perfectly sure that they(the palestinians) would be willing to allow on places where their lands have been developed in a way they wouldn't have that they would keep it that way and allow the jewish people to stay on paying rent
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010

Share This Page