Europeans and other Foreign Nationals who Trash America [Archive]

WillNever

11-17-09, 09:57 PM

Those who know me on this board know me to be someone who is rabidly against any sort of blind, nationalistic fervor or mindless brow-beating, especially in matters concerning the USA, which to many of us here is our place of birth. However, that does not mean that I condone all the nasty, arrogant, and self-righteous condemnation that Americans often have to deal with, especially from those who originate in Europe. One of the biggest accusations stemming from all that is the criticism that Americans are lazy and narrow-minded because they don't apply for passports and travel to foreign countries as often as Europeans do.

Now, I myself have been abroad several times in my life, so I have a very even-handed approach to the matter as both a natural, home-born American and a traveler, and I have to say that the fact that American foreign travel is disproportionate to the amount of traveling that foreigners take part in is perfectly acceptable and healthy, given the special circumstances that are unique to only America. In the meantime, the Europeans who criticize Americans on that basis need to get their heads rewired and think a little bit more with their brains instead of their mouths before trashing the freest and most productive country in the world. Here are my words to those people:

Do you European critics not understand the fact that unlike the small little territory that your country occupies, the USA is ENORMOUS in comparison? Our vast country is roughly twice the size of your whole continent, which is where you conduct most of your so-called "international travel." Does everyone get the picture? We have the majority of all earthly climates within our own borders, including sub-tropical climates. Meanwhile, your whole country probably resembles upstate New York. Our own country on its own is big enough for traveling, and the two countries that border our north and south, the ones we visit most, are likewise HUGE in comparison to yours.

We also have a far more diverse range of foods, ethnicities, religions, and natural attractions in our own borders than you can ever dream of. And in addition to that, we work the longest hours and have the least vacation time out of the year than any other country, meaning we simply don't have as much time to burn traveling as you do.

Please keep the above in mind when you Europeans (or any other foreign nationals) get it in your heads to call Americans lazy or narrow-minded for not traveling abroad because quite simply, unlike you, we don't need to travel abroad in order to get our kicks. :cool:

Doreen

11-17-09, 10:35 PM

There is no European country with its ecosystems limited to resembling upstate New York. Though you general point is correct.

However, I don't think Europeans expect US citizens to travel abroad more. At least none I have ever met complained about this.

They did expect US cits to be more aware of other countries more than they are. Not just neighbors, but also countries far away. IOW Europeans seem to know more about countries in the far East and South America often much better than US cits.

I do think geography plays an inevitable role, even here. If you brush up against other countries and borders are all around you, within a day's drive or less, you have an immediate sense of other countries and this affects how you learn about the world. You take it for granted you need to learn about other countries and this carries over even for countries far away.

But there is a kind of 'we are the best and other countries really want to be like us - or they are jealous and hate our way of life - so there is little reason to learn about them' attitude also.

I have never, ever been challenged on my having traveled enough by Europeans. Now I would satisfy most challengers, but even before I would have, no one did. I think Europeans also know that many Americans cannot afford to travel, even inside the US and might be less quick to judge someone like that in the ways upper class Americans might.

Are there other US cits, other than the OP writer who have met complaints that US cits don't travel enough?

S.A.M.

11-17-09, 10:37 PM

I would not say Americans do not travel. There are 700 US military bases around the world and there is always some country somewhere occupied by Americans.

WillNever

11-17-09, 10:39 PM

There is no European country with its ecosystems limited to resembling upstate New York.

You're right. Upstate New York + Northern Pennsylvania together is much more representative of European ecosystems. :cool:

But there is a kind of 'we are the best and other countries really want to be like us - or they are jealous and hate our way of life - so there is little reason to learn about them' attitude also.

I do agree. In order to travel internationally, most Europeans simply need to take a train or an automobile in order to cross national borders into another country. They can make a weekend trip out of it, and this costs Europeans almost nothing at all, just the price of a train ticket or the gas. In order for an American to travel internationally, we usually have to drive or fly 1000 miles or more just to get to Canada or Mexico, two very large countries which Europeans like to say "don't count" despite all their intra-European travel somehow counting. Also, in order to make a weeklong visit to a country in Europe for a couple weeks, Americans can expect to pay up to three to five grand for a reasonably comfortable stay, including air fare... especially when it's a whole family.

There are special circumstances at work here that are unique only to Americans, and that's something Europeans need to consider.

Asguard

11-17-09, 10:40 PM

i was thinking the same thing SAM:p

Tiassa

11-17-09, 11:52 PM

... unlike you, we don't need to travel abroad in order to get our kicks.

I find this whole thread a bit of a straw man.

A few basic considerations:

(1) Americans frequently opine on other cultures in such a manner as to demand that others view the world as Americans do. That is, what does not make sense to Americans because of their standards and priorities is not necessarily nonsensical to someone of other standards and priorities.

(2) Yes, other people do this, too.

(3) What makes the American consideration special is the nation's place in the world order. With great influence comes at least some responsibility. Americans are really big on influence, but responsibility is something more of a political buzzword kicked around for lack of anything better.

(4) The range of what constitutes "any sort of blind, nationalistic fervor or mindless brow-beating" is broad and nearly amorphous.

What strikes me about your rant is twofold: First, it is very general; see #4 above. Secondly, though, it really does seem to be about one-upping our European neighbors. The middle paragraphs are problematic to the point of being laughable, except I'm not sure comedy was your aim.

• • •

Are there other US cits, other than the OP writer who have met complaints that US cits don't travel enough?

This is a discussion that comes up in geopolitics and American elections. It's hard to claim foreign policy experience when you've never left the country. While it seems perhaps a small issue to fight over, George W. Bush wasn't particularly well-traveled; whether or not that has anything to do with his foreign policy disasters is a moot point, though. There was enough wrong with his approach to other nations that we don't need to crawl that far down the ladder.

Sarah Palin was a pretty obvious mockery of foreign policy experience. Oh, good; some days she can see Russia. Yeah, and I've been into Canada on a boat how many times? Do I get to claim myself a foreign trade specialist?

It's partially a reaction to anti-intellectualism among the right wing. At some point, exasperated people roll their eyes and say, "Okay, so he's some international jet-setting effete liberal. What did you learn about people abroad while staying home?"

It's a lot easier to reduce the French to cheese-eating surrender monkeys, or Muslims to a bunch of rabid terrorists, if you've never met them. But knowing these people is part of the problem, too. Everyone I know, for instance, knows the bit about French or Russian people and a lack of personal hygiene. And for every joke I hear about how French and Russian people stink, I never hear anyone mention the number of French and Russian people who don't stink. It's not necessarily that these folks hate the Russians and French, but that they don't notice the ones who don't stink. You get out, you immerse yourself in a culture, and you don't have to accept it as the right way, but it stops being so weird and foreign, which makes it inherently less scary.

• Roger Waters, "'Leaving Beirut' Speech (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFldNjOLlqM)"

• Roger Waters, "Leaving Beirut (Sienkiewicz Frames) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJJGgioWiq8)"

John99

11-17-09, 11:58 PM

Doreen:

However, I don't think Europeans expect US citizens to travel abroad more. At least none I have ever met complained about this.

They did expect US cits to be more aware of other countries more than they are. Not just neighbors, but also countries far away. IOW Europeans seem to know more about countries in the far East and South America often much better than US cits.

I do think geography plays an inevitable role, even here. If you brush up against other countries and borders are all around you, within a day's drive or less, you have an immediate sense of other countries and this affects how you learn about the world. You take it for granted you need to learn about other countries and this carries over even for countries far away.

have you taken a survey? did you go door to door with a pad?

But there is a kind of 'we are the best and other countries really want to be like us - or they are jealous and hate our way of life - so there is little reason to learn about them' attitude also.

does more need to be said?

John99

11-18-09, 12:29 AM

it is so funny how people make judgment calls based on knowing one or two people, or even a handful of people. i just never understood that. what part of the brain is responsible for this phenomenon?

countezero

11-18-09, 01:12 AM

I lived in two European cultures, immersed myself in both of them.

In general, their views about America and American policies are boneheaded and ignorant. And, in the case of continental Europeans, their smug sense of superiority (which in reality is born of inferiority) is both real and obvious. I don't know how many times I heard the crack about not knowing geography, for example . . .

superstring01

11-18-09, 01:53 AM

EntropyAlwaysWins

11-18-09, 04:14 AM

Next time I go to Asia, I'll be sure to visit France and spit on all the Brazilians who live there.

~String

:D
I hear their neighbours in Zimbabwe are similarly unfriendly.

Doreen

11-18-09, 10:04 AM

have you taken a survey? did you go door to door with a pad?Did I say I did? No. Did I make it clear it was based on my experience? Yes. Did the writer of the OP go door to door? I doubt it, but for some reason you did not care about his approach. Why? Because you like his opinion and not mine. Hypocrite.

Americans score much lower on geography tests than Europeans. Sorry John.

synthesizer-patel

11-18-09, 02:08 PM

Europeans, their smug sense of superiority (which in reality is born of inferiority) . . .

ok I'll bite - name 7 things that you think make the US culturally superior to Europe

MacGyver1968

11-18-09, 02:16 PM

The point is still very clear: Texas is home to a disproportionate amount of gross, self-serving fatbodies.

So I guess it's ok for your to bash on Texas, but not ok for Europeans to bash on the U.S.?

Cowboy

11-18-09, 02:19 PM

Next time I go to Asia, I'll be sure to visit France and spit on all the Brazilians who live there.

~String

Go to Japan. There are Brazilians there, believe it or not.

iceaura

11-18-09, 02:49 PM

ok I'll bite - name 7 things that you think make the US culturally superior to Europe
National parks and wilderness areas, together with the intellectual and cultural foundation of them.

"A man's home is his castle", principle and cultural attitude established in law and custom.

Jazz, blues, rock and roll.

Competitive team sports.

Common language established over huge geographical regions and diverse cultures.

Legal and cultural egalitarian treatment of individuals across income classes, principle and enforcement - common terms of address, provision of "public defenders", etc.

Land grant universities, public schools, and similar establishments - education as appropriate for any given individual.

Granted these things are eroding and threatened, that the US is resting on some achievements it needs to be working to maintain, but nevertheless - - - -

Tiassa

11-18-09, 03:34 PM

So I guess it's ok for your to bash on Texas, but not ok for Europeans to bash on the U.S.?

Well, Texas is part of the U.S. Should we start viewing it otherwise?

The thing is that people tend to "pick on their own" more than they accept others picking on the same. This, of course, is not a reliable boundary since it can be drawn anywhere:

I'll give y'all this much: I apologize for putting the noose in the cartoon. That was one step too far and went beyond the more gentle stereotypes. The rest, though, was just a joke and joking is my job. If I apologized every time I offended someone with a cartoon, I'd be begging forgiveness 24 hours a day. It wouldn't bother me one bit if some Carolinian cartoonist portrayed folks in Seattle as latté-swilling, recycling-obsessed, Prius-driving liberals. Of course, such a caricature would have the added virtue of being accurate.

(Horsey (http://blog.seattlepi.com/davidhorsey/archives/184373.asp))

So maybe compared to all of us liberal, left-coast effetes, Texas is something else entirely, but if we agreed with you on that point, we'd be horrible people.

Still, though, I rather doubt your example. To the one, no wonder you didn't want to link to the quote (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2416641&postcount=76). To the other, though, every once in a while someone goes and does something stupid and offensive like looking it up.

You're upset because someone bashed Texas in the seventy-sixth post of a thread called "Which is the most redneck state (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=16755)"?

Texas is part of the United States of America, and Texans need to either accept this fact or do something about it. In the meantime, though, as long as we three hundred millions will live in familial disdain, I don't see how being from Texas is any particular reason to excuse you from the dinner table.

Now, if we want to put an end to all that stupid regionalism, Texans can do their part by not being the crazy uncle that everyone just humors while wondering when the state commitment papers will be processed. Seriously. Everyone has their part to do. Up here in Seattle, we need to stop being so depressingly cynical. Down in California, they have to learn to shit in the toilet and not all over everyone else. Floridans need to wake up; there's a reason the place is called "America's wang". Louisiana: get off their daughters. Texas: accept the fact that you're Americans and stop embarrassing everyone else. New York: being nice won't kill you. New Jersey ... um ... well ... yeah. It's New Jersey. Iowa, Montana, Idaho ... you name it.

Seriously, though. Nationalism and regionalism are silly, to the one. To the other, people are really oversensitive about this shit. Hell, I remember when asking where the WMDs were was sympathizing with terrorists. I mean, come on. Right or wrong, doesn't matter. U.S.A.!

Two words: Freedom fries.

I would have much more faith in people's objections to international criticism if there wasn't so damn much to criticize. Regionally speaking: Come on, dude. It's Texas. Get a legislature with a clue. Dump the textbook adoption committees that demand alternative history. Accept the fact that y'all are Americans. And the next time one of your idiot governors decides to run for president, please stop him. Yeah, I know people are mean to Texas. Just like they were mean to Florida when a bunch of people couldn't figure out how to vote.
____________________

Notes:

Horsey, David. "In the South Carolina dog house". Drawing Power. November 6, 2009. Blog.SeattlePI.com. November 18, 2009. http://blog.seattlepi.com/davidhorsey/archives/184373.asp

countezero

11-18-09, 03:48 PM

ok I'll bite - name 7 things that you think make the US culturally superior to Europe

I'm not making the claim America is better.

I'm pointing out that Europeans continually walk around making the claim that their culture is more superior, their politics are more enlightened, their populations are more educated, etc. They do this all the time...

StrawDog

11-18-09, 04:04 PM

National parks and wilderness areas, together with the intellectual and cultural foundation of them.

"A man's home is his castle", principle and cultural attitude established in law and custom.

Jazz, blues, rock and roll.

Competitive team sports.

Common language established over huge geographical regions and diverse cultures.

Legal and cultural egalitarian treatment of individuals across income classes, principle and enforcement - common terms of address, provision of "public defenders", etc.

Land grant universities, public schools, and similar establishments - education as appropriate for any given individual.

Granted these things are eroding and threatened, that the US is resting on some achievements it needs to be working to maintain, but nevertheless - - - -

I would add Movies and the Movie experience. The Americans are (IMHO) the uncontested masters of the Art of Cinema. (and yes, notwithstanding the arty movie scene in Europe and Asia :D) And to learn the art of storytelling via movies, one has to travel to the US and become immersed in the incredible amount of talent available. :m:

synthesizer-patel

11-18-09, 04:54 PM

I'm not making the claim America is better.

. And, in the case of continental Europeans, their smug sense of superiority (which in reality is born of inferiority) . . .

sure sounds like it!

Personally I dont see America as worse neccesarily - just very backward and very conflicted - but considering it's at least 200 years younger as a nation than pretty much every other developed country in the world, there's no reason why it shouldnt be 200 years behind the rest of the world cuturally, and politically.

You'll catch up

In the meantime keep making great rock music

but less of the international terrorism please

quadraphonics

11-18-09, 05:04 PM

One of the biggest accusations stemming from all that is the criticism that Americans are lazy and narrow-minded because they don't apply for passports and travel to foreign countries as often as Europeans do.

It's my experience that this is more of a British phenomenon than a pan-European one. Perhaps it's just that they speak English more, and so we hear it more from them, but I've almost never heard that trope from any other Europeans (one curmudgeonly Swiss marijuana retailer being the exception, but that was something of a special case). Perhaps it's simply that other European cultures do not display the confrontational rudeness that typifies Britain, and so have the decency to keep that sort of chauvinism hidden.

This all started to make sense to me when I realized that British tourists are considered a drunken, rude, unruly and unwelcome intrusion in most of Europe (and elsewhere), soccer-hooligans that they are. So, in typical fashion, they try to compensate by recasting this as cultural superiority to those insular, stupid Americans. This is largely accomplished via binge-drinking circle-jerks in pubs, where they invent ridiculous statistics about American passport ownership and travel habits and congratulate themselves on their enlightenment for spending a week getting shitfaced on club drugs in Ibiza or Ko Samui.

Seriously though, American international travel habits come down to distance and time. We recently hired a guy from Europe at my job, and within a month he was complaining that the amount of time off we are allotted, combined with the travel time to/from Europe and the level of jet-lag, pretty much precludes travelling to other continents with any regularity. You have to save up all your days off for an entire year, just for a single trip. And we get more time off than your average American worker (and are paid better to boot), so you can imagine how the rest of the country fares.

Differences in average family size also matter. Your average European has fewer children, later in life, and so has more years wherein big intercontinental trips are feasible. Not that I'm convinced that Europeans travel to other continents more frequently than Americans; the greater level of international travel that is claimed seems to be largely a function of travel between European countries.

Dywyddyr

11-18-09, 05:11 PM

It's my experience that this is more of a British phenomenon than a pan-European one. Perhaps it's just that they speak English more, and so we hear it more from them, but I've almost never heard that trope from any other Europeans (one curmudgeonly Swiss marijuana retailer being the exception, but that was something of a special case). Perhaps it's simply that other European cultures do not display the confrontational rudeness that typifies Britain, and so have the decency to keep that sort of chauvinism hidden.
Try France if you want to see a similar attitude. Really. They could teach us Brits a thing or two about superior attitudes. Especially Parisians who even manage to look down on the rest the French.

This all started to make sense to me when I realized that British tourists are considered a drunken, rude, unruly and unwelcome intrusion in most of Europe (and elsewhere), soccer-hooligans that they are. So, in typical fashion, they try to compensate by recasting this as cultural superiority to those insular, stupid Americans. This is largely accomplished via binge-drinking circle-jerks in pubs, where they invent ridiculous statistics about American passport ownership and travel habits and congratulate themselves on their enlightenment for spending a week getting shitfaced on club drugs in Ibiza or Ko Samui.
Yep, we Brits are perceived that way on the continent, but our attitude certainly doesn't stem from trying to compensate. It's more probably a legacy of empire. And generally isn't held by the sort who get "shitfaced on club drugs in Ibiza or Ko Samui" since they're largely incoherent idiots.

John99

11-18-09, 05:15 PM

Did I say I did? No. Did I make it clear it was based on my experience? Yes. Did the writer of the OP go door to door? I doubt it, but for some reason you did not care about his approach. Why? Because you like his opinion and not mine. Hypocrite.

Americans score much lower on geography tests than Europeans. Sorry John.

doh...:wallbang:

quadraphonics

11-18-09, 05:16 PM

Try France if you want to see a similar attitude. Really. They could teach us Brits a thing or two about superior attitudes.

I've spent a lot more time in France than Britain, as it happens, and have found these steretypes to be totally baseless. In my experience the French are uniformly friendly and unassuming towards Americans, even the vaunted Parisians. Maybe it's just that I'm thoughtful enough to toss out a "bon jour" before asking if people speak English, and am able to converse at sub-Texan volumes...

The British, on the other hand... I've gotten unsolicited political/cultural snobbery from them in pretty much every country I've ever visited, often from complete strangers. They will literally butt into your conversations in bars and restaurants and start talking shit about your nationality. Most recently I spent an entire lunch here in the US smiling and nodding politely at the barrage of unsolicited cultural derision from a British co-worker in town on business. This is apparently considered a polite way for guests to behave.

Many can't seem to help themselves; some level of brashness seems inculcated from birth. I have British friends that reside here who will do it without thinking, and then come to a sudden halt when they notice that everyone has ceased talking or smiling and is staring at them uncomfortably, the way you would at someone who'd just shat in their own pants.

Dywyddyr

11-18-09, 05:27 PM

I've spent a lot more time in France than Britain, as it happens, and have found these steretypes to be totally baseless. In my experience the French are uniformly friendly and unassuming towards Americans, even the vaunted Parisians. Maybe it's just that I'm thoughtful enough to toss out a "bon jour" before asking if people speak English...
Maybe it's the fact that I'm thoughtful enough to speak in French all the time when in France that I found that attitude to be somewhat more than a stereotype.
When you speak the language you hear what they're saying when they're NOT directly interacting and being polite.

quadraphonics

11-18-09, 05:31 PM

Maybe it's the fact that I'm thoughtful enough to speak in French all the time when in France that I found that attitude to be somewhat more than a stereotype.

I get the idea that they're a bit like the Japanese that way. Politeness to visitors is highly valued, but the moment you try to act like you're "one of them" (by speaking the language, say), you're entering a vicious hierarchy of cultural one-upsmanship.

Dywyddyr

11-18-09, 05:42 PM

I get the idea that they're a bit like the Japanese that way. Politeness to visitors is highly valued, but the moment you try to act like you're "one of them" (by speaking the language, say), you're entering a vicious hierarchy of cultural one-upsmanship.
No, see my edit: by speaking the language you hear what's said when they're not being polite.
And besides I'm a Brit so they'd be one-upping the UK not the States if that were the case.

mike47

11-18-09, 05:54 PM

America was and still is the envy of the world . Millions of folks all around the world dream of living and settling in the US if they can . The problem with America is their foreign policy, crimes rate,not being interested about knowing the rest of the world among other things .

quadraphonics

11-18-09, 06:00 PM

No, see my edit: by speaking the language you hear what's said when they're not being polite.

Of course. But I understand enough French to tell when I'm being derided, and haven't had a problem. There was one grumpy hostel worker who got pissed when I didn't understand French once, but I chalk that up to the early hour.

And besides I'm a Brit so they'd be one-upping the UK not the States if that were the case.

Right, the French have a certain special disdain for the UK, so I expect that you'll get it a lot worse from them than just about any other nationality.

Dywyddyr

11-18-09, 06:05 PM

Of course. But I understand enough French to tell when I'm being derided, and haven't had a problem. There was one grumpy hostel worker who got pissed when I didn't understand French once, but I chalk that up to the early hour.
Point missed. I'm not talking about individuals so much as the attitude toward America as a whole.

Right, the French have a certain special disdain for the UK, so I expect that you'll get it a lot worse from them than just about any other nationality.
But we don't.
Again you missed my point. Living with a French family, socialising with them and on my own I found the overall attitude toward the US is far more disdainful.

quadraphonics

11-18-09, 06:14 PM

Point missed. I'm not talking about individuals so much as the attitude toward America as a whole.

Which is a ensemble of individual attitudes, no?

Again you missed my point. Living with a French family, socialising with them and on my own I found the overall attitude toward the US is far more disdainful.

Perhaps they aren't telling you their true feelings, out of respect for your nationality.

On the other hand, perhaps the ones who have told me they like Americans fine but can't stand the Brits were doing the same thing. Could be we're both being played here...

Dywyddyr

11-18-09, 06:23 PM

Which is a ensemble of individual attitudes, no?
Plus a national, governmental attitude.
I meant "not an attitude toward an individual" rather than from an individual. Anyone can be polite (or otherwise) toward someone there at the time, for however long it takes for them to go away.

Perhaps they aren't telling you their true feelings, out of respect for your nationality.
I LIVED there.
TV, newspapers, passers-by, crowd conversations...

On the other hand, perhaps the ones who have told me they like Americans fine but can't stand the Brits were doing the same thing. Could be we're both being played here...
Re-read my post.
I listened to what was said generally.
Even the stuff that was spoken by people who didn't know I was English.

draqon

11-18-09, 07:25 PM

trashing America = non-CNN/FOX propaganda

truth hurts, doesn't it?

quadraphonics

11-18-09, 08:14 PM

I LIVED there.
TV, newspapers, passers-by, crowd conversations...

Re-read my post.
I listened to what was said generally.
Even the stuff that was spoken by people who didn't know I was English.

Good for you. But I still find your credentials as a spokesman for France inferior to those of my French friends and coworkers. So I'm going to defer to them when it comes to finding out what French people think. And they're pretty consistent on the point of despising the UK. Even the one who lived in the UK for a decade agrees.

S.A.M.

11-18-09, 08:17 PM

Dywyddyr

11-18-09, 08:19 PM

But I still find your credentials as a spokesman for France inferior to those of my French friends and coworkers. So I'm going to defer to them when it comes to finding out what French people think.
Okay.

Perhaps they aren't telling you their true feelings, out of respect for your nationality.

And they're pretty consistent on the point of despising the UK. Even the one who lived in the UK for a decade agrees.
I know.

Gustav

11-18-09, 09:37 PM

Those who know me on this board

indeed :D

Doreen

11-18-09, 10:24 PM

I think, aside from the English, there are probably very few people who will tell Americans what they think about their country. Most Indians would not, for instance. In mixed company, be it Korean, Chinese, Arab or European the consesus of opinion I am familiar with is that Americans have no clue.Oh, people tell me all the time, from all over the place. They often begin with little probing questions....the probe is not inserted far at first, but they are checking to see how far the next probe can go and when they can lecture. I actually have experienced the English to be far less political than other nationalities - but this could be chance. Hell, even the Scandavians, with their genetic reticence, get across their opinions of my homeland even in a single meeting.

These opinions are both positive and negative. I mean Eastern Europeans tend to be rather positive, for example. Which often puts me in the uncomfortable position of having to be more negative. When pressed. And Iraquis were often rather vocally pro Bush/US shortly after the second invasion. This changed, but it led to a number of awkward discussions which I hope, I really hope they remembered later, because the looks I got - for opinions most of them probably had a year later, were really unpleasant to receive.

Tiassa

11-18-09, 11:05 PM

A general rant ... based on—

This is largely accomplished via binge-drinking circle-jerks in pubs ....

Well-written video games are gifts that keep on giving. Or, to be more precise, I'm reminded by the above quote of callers to James Pedeaston (http://gta.wikia.com/James_Pedeaston)'s Wild Traveler radio show in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas.

"Yeah. Hi, my name's Geraldine, calling from Casa City. This is such a great country! Why would you go anywhere else? It's unpatriotic to travel. I mean, I got war, famine, depression, and pollution right here on my doorstep. And parents—don't let your kids Eurorail after college. They'll come back with ludicrous misconceptions about health care, charity, and civilization. Europe is not the real world. This is!"

(Wild Traveler #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znzFmDT-dCk))

• • •

"Hey, I've been listening to you go on and on about travel, and do you know how expensive it is to fly to Asia? Russia saw the light; they're all coming here to set up crime families and run numbers. South America? Everyone went extinct there. They have less culture there than the contents of my toilet bowl. Rainforest, schmainforest! And Mexico—if I wanted to be that close to my ancient ancestors, I'd be banging my mother-in-law instead of my wife's best friend."

(ibid)

• • •

Caller #1: I can't believe you actually recommended we go to Barbados on our honeymoon! It was revolting! There were poor people! I live in Vinewood to be away from poor people!

Pedeaston: Barbados is lovely.

Caller #1: Look, I wanna be very clear: I'm not racist, just careful.

Pedeaston: Okay.

Caller #1: I like all-inclusive resorts, where you can drink as much as you want, be around other people from San Andreas, and the only interaction you have with the locals is if you need a cocktail, or some spice in the bedroom with your husband.

Pedeaston: Well, that sounds lovely. With people like you, it's no wonder we don't bother curing cancer. Next caller, you're on The Wild Traveler—roar!

Caller #2: Yeah, it's funny; you go on and on about other countries, but you live here! America rules, you Commie! Eat me!

Pedeaston: Well, we've been trying. Tom, you're on the line.

Tom: I'm so sick of England! "Oh, let's go to the pub." They're all alcoholics. At least we drink a twenty-four pack in private instead of hangin' out in some social setting making a fool of ourselves. People say, "It's so civilized in Europe; they got thousands of years of history." Well, I saw a movie about Europe once, and I was disgusted! I mean, people still defecate in their living rooms and cover it up with dirt like a cat! You can't find a decent turlet anywhere! Or good chicken wings! And the strippers? Heh. Overcharge.

Pedeaston: Good Lord, you philistine. You should stay out of England. I hear there is a casino in Venturas that is just like the rest of the world, only with better toilets and full of morons like you. Do you want culture or do you want safety? It's your choice. Personally, I want irrigation, of the colonic variety. But that's a whole different story, and it is early.

(Wild Traveler #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr4tmk6Bn28))

The thing is that these sketches are entirely about Americans and travel. Pedeaston is a neurotic, self-obsessed pedophile. The joke, of course, is that only pedophiles and other effete idiots go to places like Thailand or India for recreation; thus, Pedeaston's travel stories always involve trying to have sex with little boys. The callers are "regular Americans" insofar as angry, ignorant people like Sarah Palin and the "Middle America" movement are regular Americans.

There are some members here who are too young to remember the Cold War; while the sketches for The Wild Traveler are, to be certain, exaggerated, they aren't false. The whole of the radio programming for the video game is written to lampoon various American subcultures: Sage (Radio X) mocks alt-pop shoegazers; Tommy Smith (W. Axl Rose; KDST) plays the classic glam-rocker; Marshal Peters & Johnny (Sly and Robbie; KJAH) are an irie stereotype; Peyton and Mary Phillips (WCTR) are a combination of James Carville and Mary Matalin, to the one, and Frasier and Lilith Crane to the other. There's an Art Bell parody in there, too. And a black midget named "The Love Giant". George Clinton is hilarious as The Funktipus, and DJ Forthright MC (Chuck D; Playback FM) just nails pop-culture gangsta geekstas. Dieter on acid, a hick parade, the oversexed gay gardener ....

And James Pedeaston? He's just this creepy guy who can afford to run around the world doing drugs and little boys. But the script revolves around the idea of pathetic Americans sounding off through talk radio, and among my social circle, what makes these jokes stand out as genuinely funny is that we all remember hearing that sort of talk on a fairly regular basis.

People over about the age of twenty-five ought to be able to remember some of this. I'm not sure what fantasy land people have been living in for the last eighteen years, but it's not so much that we've gotten smarter, nicer, or more enlightened that has reduced such talk. Rather, we've diverted into other things.

Think of it this way; a friend and I were talking a couple weeks ago and something came up that caused me to ask what foreign language she had studied in school. Japanese. I said, "Oh, that's right. You went to a good school." Which is sort of a joke, but still. However, around here the schools generally taught French, German, and Spanish. And here's the thing: Spanish is a good language to know if you're in the United States. So is Japanese; I ain't knocking it. Russian? Sure. Chinese? Yes. But at my school, in a slowly gentrifying former exurb, we had French, German, and Spanish. There were generally four schools of thought about this. The least important, for our consideration, was people who took a language that was somehow familiar to them. You know, maybe your mother is French, or something, so you take the class because you already know some of the language. Set those aside. I've known plenty of people (mostly female) who took French because it was a romance language. And I knew plenty of people who studied Spanish because their parents wanted them to as an economic tool—it would help in the job market to be able to speak Spanish. But there was a group of students who took French, and especially German, because of their parents, who said, in essence, "No kid of mine is gonna talk like them."

And aside from those friends of mine whose careers took them on international journeys, nobody I know remembers how to speak the languages they learned in school except for the classicist I know who is fluent in two dead languages.

American "cultural ignorance", however it is manifested or accused, would not be of any real importance except for two factors:

• We're #1.
• We are aware of this fact.

To the one, our primacy in the world makes us very sensitive about our shortcomings. To the other, I'm not sure people around the world would care as much about our cross-cultural shortcomings is that they manifest themselves in our policies. We have, collectively, a very limited understanding of the world around us, and sometimes it shows.

There's an old line from A. Whitney Brown's "Big Picture" sketches on Saturday Night Live about illiterates, and how we shouldn't be so hard on them. They might steal all the beer nuts and tell you about how the aliens left the Rosetta stone as an intergalactic Bible, or whatever, but some of them also vote. I had one of those moments in that story I tell about leaving work on 9/11. My co-worker, a college graduate with an advanced degree was so absolutely clueless about American foreign policy it was kind of scary. Sometimes you want to shout, "What do you mean, what do I mean!" Is it really so hard to understand? At some point, someone will claim responsibility, and when that happens we'll know not only who did it, but something about why.

(What do you mean, what do I mean? Really? Seriously? You don't know?)

There's an old Doonesbury in which Ambassador Duke is talking on the phone with a Central American head of state. Duke asks what he means about American intervention, and the guy starts rattling off places and dates of American incursions into Central America. "Bad news," says Duke to his assistant, Honey. "He's studied history."

You know, a couple weeks ago I pulled a joke about being a stupid American, patting myself on the back for finding Zimbabwe on a political map without any words. I mean, it's sad; that's why I made a joke out of it. To click on a shape on a map and think, "Well, what do you know? I got it." It's a little disturbing. If I don't laugh, I might get all bitter like so many other people: "Who are you calling ignorant? So what if I can't find Burma on a map? We're Americans! What have you done for the world lately?"

Unsettling proportions of high school graduates cannot:

• Find the United States on an unmarked map of the world.
• Find their home state on an unmarked map of the U.S.
• Find their state capital on a map without names.
• Find Washington, D.C. on a map without names.
• Find New York City on a map without names.
• Find Afghanistan or Iraq on a map without names.

I'm not quite as big on the whole passport thing in the long run in part because I'm part of that crowd. I've never had the money to travel abroad, so I've never bothered. However: I'm sorry, but a night in an English pub, or listening to drunk Frenchmen curse the world, does not a solid foundation for cultural criticism make. And, no, reading a bunch of stuffy books by dead authors doesn't do the trick, either.

But here's the deal: I don't let much of the criticism bother me. I take issue sometimes with one of our Australian friends, but that's largely because we come from contrasting foundations: many of his criticisms of what's wrong with the United States actually points to generally deliberate outcomes. Thus: I'm sorry, but you think our Congress is screwed? Well, yeah. That's the way it's supposed to be. Don't like our First Amendment? Good thing you're in Australia, where you don't have to worry about it, then. I mean, after all, had the glorious Crown not completely fucked up on that one, we might still be English and, like our Australian neighbors, satisfied with a drop of honey on the tongue. The underlying problem with those criticisms is that they do something I dislike in the American worldview; they presume the supremacy and accuracy of one's own outlook. One need not draw national boundaries around that phenomenon. Indeed, it only makes things worse if we do.

It's simply a matter of outcomes, of consequences. If you're the village idiot halfway around the world, why should John Q. Englishman care how stupid you are? However, if you're roaming the streets, fucking things up, and making life more difficult in those other neighborhoods? Yes, people might wonder. And if the answer is, "Step back, please; we know what we're doing," it helps every once in a while if we show that claim to be true.

If we hadn't spent the second half of the last century propping up dictators, overthrowing democratic processes, and committing other, varied geopolitical idiocies, people in England or France might not care how fucked up Americans really are.

And this is the thing that many Americans don't seem to understand about criticism of our country. The heat we take, that nobody else does? Yes, that is often our burden because it comes with the station. How is this a difficult concept for Americans? We occupy a unique station in the world. We therefore exist under unique circumstances compared to our international neighbors. If any of them want to step up and take the lead, then maybe in a generation or three when they finally solidify their geopolitical foundations, we Americans can sit back and hurl the same sorts of criticism at them.

Perhaps I would have greater sympathy for the American "poor me" routine if the laments about people complaining about Americans showed any signs of understanding these very basic considerations.

Asguard

11-18-09, 11:17 PM

you know you guys bring it on yourselves by reinforcing the sterio-type everytime you turn around. I mean look at the guy you elected to run the country , thankfully you finally recifide THAT joke. However its not just the pollies, i was talking to a guy from the US on MSN. The conversation went like this (and no im not lying, i wish i was):

Him:"where are you from?"
Me:"Im an Australian"
Him:"where in the US is Australia?"
Me:"errr, its not"
Him: "but you speak American"

Asguard

11-19-09, 12:21 AM

i know what i wrote, so why quote it? especially with NOTHING of your own?

Giambattista

11-19-09, 03:51 AM

trashing America = non-CNN/FOX propaganda

truth hurts, doesn't it?

what the f' does that mean?

draqon

11-19-09, 04:09 AM

what the f' does that mean?

when Europeans "trash" America, they are actually saying the truth about America which Americans do not dare to understand because their so Roosevelt-minded kings of the world, they rather see CNN propaganda than know the truth going on their own backyard.

Giambattista

11-19-09, 04:40 AM

you know you guys bring it on yourselves by reinforcing the sterio-type everytime you turn around. I mean look at the guy you elected to run the country , thankfully you finally recifide THAT joke.

Who are the "you guys" you speak of? I happen to live here, thanks. I'm sure I reinforce some stereotype at one time or another, but as far as everyone I've ever met, my personal assessment is that I conform to very few stereotypes when compared to the vast majority of people.

As for guys that were elected to run the country, could you be more specific? Recifide? Do you mean rectified? Or RECTALfied? Are you implying that our current administration is an improvement over the old? Barely, IMO.

However its not just the pollies, i was talking to a guy from the US on MSN. The conversation went like this (and no im not lying, i wish i was):

Him:"where are you from?"
Me:"Im an Australian"
Him:"where in the US is Australia?"
Me:"errr, its not"
Him: "but you speak American"

WHA??? I wouldn't doubt that it's true, but why were you talking to such a dimwit on MSN in the firstplace? :o I can't say that I have ever met anyone who doesn't know what or where Australia is, but apparently they exist somewhere.

Well, all I have to say is, at least the US doesn't have a silly banned internet list. Yet.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/banned-list-a-fake-150-conroy/story-0-1225691589037

http://www.efa.org.au/2009/03/20/answering-a-few-questions-about-the-leaked-blacklist/#more-450

I’ll address the authenticity of the list in a moment, but the question is almost irrelevant for a couple of reasons, First, a leak of the blacklist is inevitable once it is distributed to every ISP in the country. It may happen tomorrow or a month from now, but the leak will occur and the contents will not be substantially different from the list we have seen on Wikileaks.

The leak has clearly demonstrated that the Government’s rhetoric about child-abuse and “ultra-violent” material on the list has not been telling the whole story. We already knew that the scope of the list was much wider than that – R-rated material has always been on the list – but the inclusion of many online gambling sites and legitimate Australian businesses has surprised many people. People are now realising that the list could affect sites they themselves visit, that controversial material and politically sensitive material will make the list, and that mistakes are bound to be made.

One of the (many) ways that censoring the internet differs from, say, the censorship of movies, is that ordinary Australian individuals and businesses are affected directly. It’s not that far-fetched to imagine that an Australian retailer could have their website defaced; a complaint is filed either maliciously or with good intentions; and they find themselves on a secret blacklist with no way of seeking redress. All they would know is that nobody in Australia was able to access their web site any more, and that they were losing business. Additions to the list are not subject to appeal, unlike censorship in other media.

http://www.efa.org.au/2009/03/19/leaked-government-blacklist-confirms-worst-fears/

“The leaking of the list has confirmed some of our worst fears,” said EFA Vice-Chair Colin Jacobs. “This was bound to happen, especially as mandatory filtering would require the list to be distributed to ISPs all around the country. The Government is now in the unenviable business of compiling and distributing a list which includes salacious and illegal material and publicising those very sites to the world.”

The blacklist, which EFA tried unsuccessfully to obtain under Freedom of Information laws, was expected to contain not only some sites publishing illegal material involving minors, but also a majority of sites that were blocked for other reasons. Nevertheless, an examination of the list by EFA has turned up a few very surprising additions. YouTube videos, a MySpace profile, online poker parlours and a site containing poison information were present, as well as many apparently harmless sites such as that of a tour operator and a satirical encyclopedia.

http://www.efa.org.au/2009/05/05/efa-gets-link-removal-notice/

EFA gets link removal notice
Posted by Colin Jacobs | Censorship, Mandatory ISP Filtering | Tuesday 5 May 2009 3:14 pm

EFA’s web hosting provider was today the recipient of a Link Deletion notice from ACMA for an article on our web site ironically entitled “Net censorship already having a chilling effect“. The original article included a link to a page at abortiontv.com that includes graphic images and was previously added to ACMA’s blacklist for being “R-18+”-level material. (For more information on the ACMA net censorship system, see here and here.)
http://libertus.net/censor/netcensor.html
http://www.efa.org.au/2008/11/15/filtering-pilot-and-acma-blacklist-not-just-illegal-material/

There are many reasons why this should alarm Australian net users. Most significantly, the link was part of a political discussion about the merits of the existing and future Internet censorship policies. The link was offered as a demonstration of the sorts of controversial content that could and would be included in any such proposal. No “offensive” material was included on our site itself. Nevertheless, we were forced to remove the link on pain of severe penalties.

Giambattista

11-19-09, 04:41 AM

when Europeans "trash" America, they are actually saying the truth about America which Americans do not dare to understand because their so Roosevelt-minded kings of the world, they rather see CNN propaganda than know the truth going on their own backyard.

I understand you live in the US. Is that correct?

Surely you must be one of these people, no?

draqon

11-19-09, 04:42 AM

I understand you live in the US. Is that correct?

Surely you must be one of these people, no?

Yes my mind is slowly being poisoned by Americans...slowly I am turning to the trash I myself mock.

Enmos

11-19-09, 04:58 AM

I'm not making the claim America is better.

I'm pointing out that Europeans continually walk around making the claim that their culture is more superior, their politics are more enlightened, their populations are more educated, etc. They do this all the time...

No, they don't.. :rolleyes:

Giambattista

11-19-09, 05:00 AM

Yes my mind is slowly being poisoned by Americans...slowly I am turning to the trash I myself mock.

Do you have any recent photos of yourself, Draq? Serious. Would you link to a photo of yourself? I'm thinking you must be really adorable!

Anywho. If you feel you are being poisoned, why not just go back to the USSR? Since it was all cool back then and all.

Being more serious, in what way do you feel you are turning into the trash you mock?

one_raven

11-19-09, 05:01 AM

I have a picture of him, but he asked me not to post it.

draqon

11-19-09, 05:08 AM

yes please don't post or destribute them one_raven. G is probably wants to nail me in a court of law for my Anti-American views.

sniffy

11-19-09, 05:29 AM

John99

11-19-09, 06:00 AM

:wtf:

Giambattista

11-19-09, 06:25 AM

I have a picture of him, but he asked me not to post it.

What does it look like? Does he look Russian? It sounds creepy!

I'm not interested in that!

I'm really interested. What the hell?

You could always send it to me in a private message! But I know you wouldn't.

Giambattista

11-19-09, 06:27 AM

yes please don't post or destribute them one_raven. G is probably wants to nail me in a court of law for my Anti-American views.

You got me! I work for you know who. They want to know why you're in America (USA) and I think they're on to you.

MacGyver1968

11-19-09, 08:00 AM

G is probably wants to nail me in a court of law for my Anti-American views.

I'm thinking he might want to "nail" you another way. :)

draqon

11-19-09, 08:11 AM

I'm thinking he might want to "nail" you another way. :)

I am not a homosexual. I am a normal straight man who desires sex with women and women only.

Asguard

11-19-09, 08:31 AM

why? no one understands how to give a blowjob than someone who has had one themselves:p

Enmos

11-19-09, 08:39 AM

Are you speaking from experience? :p

Asguard

11-19-09, 08:55 AM

i wish:p

phlogistician

11-19-09, 08:56 AM

National parks and wilderness areas, together with the intellectual and cultural foundation of them.

OK, so you have Jellystone, etc.

"A man's home is his castle", principle and cultural attitude established in law and custom.

Ah sorry, you borrowed that from us Brits. I don't see many castles in the USA, do you?

Jazz, blues, rock and roll.

Hmm, sorry, but done far better by us Brits, and you know it.

Competitive team sports.

How about Soccer, Cricket, and Rugby? You know, games more than one country actually play? The USA has baseball, and 'football' and the cheek to host 'the world series' for a game nobody else gives a rats about. Sorry, team sports is not a US superlative. I can't claim it for Britain either, while we compete internationally on more fronts, we also are defeated on them.

Common language established over huge geographical regions and diverse cultures.

You talking about Spanish, or English? :-) Sorry, you can't have that one. Get everyone speaking Esperanto and you have a point.

Legal and cultural egalitarian treatment of individuals across income classes, principle and enforcement - common terms of address, provision of "public defenders", etc.

Based on English law, and a govt modelled after the Roman Senate, ...

Land grant universities, public schools, and similar establishments - education as appropriate for any given individual.

OK, so half a point for that.

OK, so to recap. You got Jellystone and some free education. Soon you'll have the largest public health system too. THAT will be something to be proud of.

Enmos

11-19-09, 08:58 AM

i wish:p

In case you saw what I posted here earlier, never mind.. lol :D

Alien Cockroach

11-19-09, 09:57 AM

Those who know me on this board know me to be someone who is rabidly against any sort of blind, nationalistic fervor or mindless brow-beating, especially in matters concerning the USA, which to many of us here is our place of birth. However, that does not mean that I condone all the nasty, arrogant, and self-righteous condemnation that Americans often have to deal with, especially from those who originate in Europe. One of the biggest accusations stemming from all that is the criticism that Americans are lazy and narrow-minded because they don't apply for passports and travel to foreign countries as often as Europeans do.The Frenchies are just trying to carry on their medieval hillbilly feud with the British. They can't get away with slamming the UK as readily as they used to, but transit across the Atlantic Ocean is about as difficult now as the trip to Dover was two hundred years ago. Otherwise, more of us would sail over there and bloody up their noses.

Their art stinks like Haitian armpits. Speaking of Haiti, I am firmly of the opinion that we should commence with sending Haitian illegal immigrants to France. If we send them back to Haiti, they will only sail back to the US of A before too long. They don't really belong in France, either, but at least the French are not as likely to be offended by the mixture of cheap, French perfume and unwashed underarm odor they always stink of.

Or am I going to hear the Frogs finally admit that deoderant was a good idea?

Dear Frogs: fix Haiti, or I will start writing letters to my senator demanding that YOUR government be held accountable for every penny that the American government has ever spent on that clusterfuck.

That includes the cost of shipping them back to Haiti.

And it also includes the cost of fixing their broken limbs when they are admited into American hospitals. It would be abominable to send them away if they are broken or ill, but I would be thrilled to see an international court rule that YOU owe us for it.

We know they don't stink like that due to being voodoo-practicing black people. Those things are relatively inoffensive. The smell of cheap, French perfume is kind of hard to miss, though.

unlike you, we don't need to travel abroad in order to get our kicks. :cool:I don't have to travel more than 400 miles in any direction to get mine *shrugs*. Seriously, if you venture into South Carolina, it's like landing on another planet. The Confederate flag is plastered on everything. LITERALLY EVERYTHING.

WillNever

11-19-09, 11:34 AM

Orleander

11-19-09, 03:11 PM

...Americans score much lower on geography tests than Europeans. Sorry John.

that's cuz we are so busy learning 50 states and all of their capitals. :D And I think we'd do better on Geography if all those other countries would quit changing their names after every civil war.

Dywyddyr

11-19-09, 03:17 PM

WE didn't change the name of our country after ANY of our civil wars!

iceaura

11-19-09, 04:19 PM

National parks and wilderness areas, together with the intellectual and cultural foundation of them.
”
OK, so you have Jellystone, etc. You have no clue.

"A man's home is his castle", principle and cultural attitude established in law and custom.
”
Ah sorry, you borrowed that from us Brits. I don't see many castles in the USA, do you? Lots of them. We call them homes. They're not as extravagant with the rock decor, but they have plumbing. And no, that idea was borrowed from the Scots and the Iroquois, not the Brits - IIRC the Brits still don't have it?

Jazz, blues, rock and roll.
”
Hmm, sorry, but done far better by us Brits, and you know it. Irish imitating Americans can make a fair show at the less gutty rock if they work hard at it, but the real stuff is in the US. Jazz and blues? You're hopeless.

Competitive team sports.
”
How about Soccer, Cricket, and Rugby? I agree that's the best you can do, and I rest my case.
You know, games more than one country actually play? What all these other countries regard as the apotheosis of team sports. Exactly my point.

You talking about Spanish, or English? :-) Sorry, you can't have that one. I can travel from one side of this continent to the other, for weeks, and read the signs, and read the newspapers, and talk to essentially all the people, unless I play tourist in some particular neighborhood.

You need a phrasebook and hand signals to run your car out of gas in a straight line and get home.

Legal and cultural egalitarian treatment of individuals across income classes, principle and enforcement - common terms of address, provision of "public defenders", etc.
”
Based on English law, and a govt modelled after the Roman Senate, ... And the Iroquois, and the Scots, and the old Greeks. So?

Another American cultural advantage - we assimilate from all over. Food, legal structure, music, vocabulary, you name it. We might overlook the proper credit, but we don't turn down the good stuff.

superstring01

11-19-09, 05:45 PM

I'm pointing out that Europeans continually walk around making the claim that their culture is more superior, their politics are more enlightened, their populations are more educated, etc. They do this all the time...

Oddly enough, I only heard that from the Brits when I was traveling. There were many debates with my Spanish comrades, but the Brits were the most anti-American of the bunch that I hung with.

This all started to make sense to me when I realized that British tourists are considered a drunken, rude, unruly and unwelcome intrusion in most of Europe (and elsewhere), soccer-hooligans that they are.

I wish I could find the article on British vacationing habits. I laughed out loud. They inevitably find a Hotel, stay at the pool, drink at English pubs and avoid all contact with the locals. Might as well go to Southern Florida instead of Tenerife!

When I lived in Spain, the Brits were undetectable outside of their various enclaves excpet when intoxicated to the point of public indecency. . .

. . . which is a horrid and unfair generalization to the (probably vast majority of) friendly, well behaved Brits. This may be the case of the squeaky wheel and all that.

Seriously though, American international travel habits come down to distance and time. We recently hired a guy from Europe at my job, and within a month he was complaining that the amount of time off we are allotted, combined with the travel time to/from Europe and the level of jet-lag, pretty much precludes travelling to other continents with any regularity. You have to save up all your days off for an entire year, just for a single trip. And we get more time off than your average American worker (and are paid better to boot), so you can imagine how the rest of the country fares.

To get to the Canary Islands next year, I will spend $1,450 + hotel, take 21 hours to get there and 23 to get back. Europeans are FORCED to mix with other cultures and develop various sensibilities that Americans just don't have the opportunity to develop and use. Those that I did meet overseas were usually the best behaved (especially the ones off the beaten path: hyper-awareness of the bad rep that we've earned, perhaps).

I've spent a lot more time in France than Britain, as it happens, and have found these steretypes to be totally baseless. In my experience the French are uniformly friendly and unassuming towards Americans, even the vaunted Parisians. Maybe it's just that I'm thoughtful enough to toss out a "bon jour" before asking if people speak English, and am able to converse at sub-Texan volumes...

People have a nasty habit of judging entire nations by their "quintessential" metropolitan area, which is idiotic. Parisians are assholes, there's no doubt about that. The city is so goddamned perfect (except for the pervasiveness of various effluvia bearing a strange resemblance to a typical camper toilet), that the inhabitants think they are equally perfect. Once outside Paris, the French become the most inviting people I've known and the rep they've earned is wholly off the mark.

In my travels, I've found some serious metro-exceptions:

Manhattanites (is that even the correct demonym?), on my multiple visits, were outgoing and friendly, almost to the point of making me think that they were out to sell me something (on two occasions, I had a local stop me and ask ME if I needed directions). In bars--gay or straight--most of my experiences were positive to the point of making listeners to my stories believe that I was making the whole thing up. The friendliness quotient has increased markedly since 9/11.

Madrileños (Madrid) are friendly on a level outpacing those of the American south. I was invited home--and accepted--on two occasions on nights out with friends. And we aren't even talking about the "company for the night" type of invites home. No, I'm talking: dinner with friends type invite, after only a few hours of time together.

Caraqueños (Caracas) were also nice. I spent a week there with friends, admittedly in a wealthier sub-community and frequenting nicer areas (that, oddly enough, back in the 90's charged like 25 cents [equivalent] to get in and out of; reason: kept out the beggars and the poor). But my experience on the whole with them was amazing.

The British, on the other hand... I've gotten unsolicited political/cultural snobbery from them in pretty much every country I've ever visited, often from complete strangers. They will literally butt into your conversations in bars and restaurants and start talking shit about your nationality.

Two of the three adult fist-fights I've been in were with Brits over the same issue. There was almost a fourth, but at that time in my life, I was averse to punching women in the face (I'd reconsider that option if I ever ran into that cunt-whore again). Like you, it's not like I'm the type of traveler who carries the Stars & Stripes with me when I go over seas. Shit, I have considered on multiple occasions applying for a Chilean passport (they sell them, legally) so that I could pretend to be a native (my Spanish accent being far better back in my teens), just so that I could avoid being berated--

Me? Oh, no. . . not American. My mother was from Saskatchewan and my father. . . um, definitely French extraction, but he's from Chile just like me. Ever been to Santiago? You know what I'm talking aboot, eh?
--But, over the years, I've become more pig-headed. I'm an American. I'm proud of it, despite the embarrassments like Bush, Michael Fay. . . and . . . um. . . Rosanne (I just hate her and grabbed her name out of my head). But, often times, and out of the blue, I've had Brits approach me to give me an earful of what they think is wrong with the USA and how horrible it is. Upon mentioning their stellar record in Ireland, Africa and Asia I usually got paltry excuses and downright idiotic explanations (once being told that what the British did for Ireland was a favor to them). Huh?

. . . the way you would at someone who'd just shat in their own pants.

Late for Carnival in Sta. Cruz de Tenerife, I started running from the bus stop, only to trample through the section of sidewalk that served as run-off for yummy, tasty, savory urine[!] that was streaming down walls, pissed-upon by local Brits (they have an obsession with pissing on walls, must be a biblical thing), slipped, a la Slip 'N Slide (http://www.wham-o.com/default.cfm?page=ViewProducts&Category=1), and slathered my full front (including a portion of my then, slightly cracked mouth°) in alcohol infused bladder-juice. I console myself with the fact that, by the time of my arrival, most of it was expelled alcohol. . . I think (and don't correct me if you know better).

I think, aside from the English, there are probably very few people who will tell Americans what they think about their country. Most Indians would not, for instance. In mixed company, be it Korean, Chinese, Arab or European the consesus of opinion I am familiar with is that Americans have no clue.

Wow. People around the world hold negative opinions of the USA and Americans. And I'm sure they--every single one--are born out of personal experience in engaging Americans.

when Europeans "trash" America, they are actually saying the truth about America which Americans do not dare to understand because their so Roosevelt-minded kings of the world, they rather see CNN propaganda than know the truth going on their own backyard.

Right. Coming from the well-educated boy who makes up whole tracts of history and calls for the extermination of entire nations.

Yes my mind is slowly being poisoned by Americans...slowly I am turning to the trash I myself mock.

You should hurry back to Russia. Don't let the door hit you.

I am a normal straight man who desires sex with women and women only.

Yes. . . yes. . . it's the part about women desiring you that screws the pooch, isn't it?

OK, so you have Jellystone, etc.

Were you being serious, because it seems like you were trying to be. . . but then couldn't even name a real national park.

Ah sorry, you borrowed that from us Brits. I don't see many castles in the USA, do you?

It's a popular quote. No need for castles. Telling that you missed that point.

Hmm, sorry, but done far better by us Brits, and you know it.

That's subjective. Though, to be fair, the Brits deserve every ounce of credit they've earned for their cultural (rock, included) they've exported. Still, ounce for ounce, no nation has more listeners and watchers (of entertainment) than the USA.

You talking about Spanish, or English? :-) Sorry, you can't have that one. Get everyone speaking Esperanto and you have a point.

There are few enclaves in the USA (and even less when measured by population and land proportions) where you won't hear English spoken and written by nearly as many people who speak the "alternative" language. And even now, those enclaves last, at most, 50 years before becoming English or "some other immigrant" dominated. It's part of our heritage: the assimilation of many.

Based on English law, and a govt modelled after the Roman Senate, ...

Indeed. But the first to enshrine equality into the constitution. That the USA has fallen short at times is notable, but not as notable as its continued struggle to grant it to all. More constitutions have been modeled after the American than any other.

~String

_______________________________________
°This beats the horror of seeing my uncle & aunt from Roanoke, VA--assisting in the baby-horse-making part of horse husbandry (um. . . the stallions sometimes--to put it delicately--need a helping hand. . . [guy joke in 3 - 2 - 1: Yep. . . I know how that feels]). Once finished with his part, the male horse removed an erect, swinging penis (the size of which I've never seen before or since) not quite done ejaculating, splashing the faces with mouths wide open (I looked. . . yes, I fucking looked) and saw their mugs glistening with pearlescent equine semen above and below the lip-line (indicating the significant possibility of seminal-oral insertion). Nonchalantly, they grabbed a towel and wiped it off. Not-so-nonchalantly, I pondered a full frontal lobotomy to remove the memories from my brain.

John99

11-19-09, 06:20 PM

doh...:wallbang:

quadraphonics

11-19-09, 06:27 PM

When I lived in Spain, the Brits were undetectable outside of their various enclaves excpet when intoxicated to the point of public indecency. . .

There's a hilarious scene in one of the later "Up" films (42 Up I think it was?) where Tony has retired to a British enclave in Spain, and is opening up a British-themed pub for his compatriots. Which is all fine, as far as that stuff goes. But when asked about why he moved to Spain, he launches into a tirade about how tons of immigrants have moved in to Britain and insist on importing their own cultures instead of assimilating into his, and he just can't abide that sort of arrogant disrespect. And this is without the slightest hint of irony.

To get to the Canary Islands next year, I will spend $1,450 + hotel, take 21 hours to get there and 23 to get back.

Yeah, my trip to Taiwan next month exhibits similar statistics, and must be crammed into less than 10 days in order preserve a few vacation days for the upcoming ski season. Not the sort of thing that most people are up for, even if they don't have kids to worry about.

Europeans are FORCED to mix with other cultures and develop various sensibilities that Americans just don't have the opportunity to develop and use.

And more power to them for that. It's really cool how Europe hosts such a large collection of cultures and nations in a relatively small area. It's just that it's extremely galling when this situation is attributed to superior character, rather than its actual causes (geography and history). Doubly so in the context of a lecture about cultural understanding.

Parisians are assholes, there's no doubt about that.

I really haven't found this to be the case. But perhaps it's because there aren't many actual Parisians in Paris at high-tourist times, which is typically when I'm there. Or, again, perhaps I'm just low-profile enough that they haven't the energy to give me a hard time after dealing with the throngs of dipshits.

Like you, it's not like I'm the type of traveler who carries the Stars & Stripes with me when I go over seas.

I don't carry them around at home, either. I'm one of those kids who refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school once I got old enough to understand that it wasn't mandatory.

But I have been known to vandalize baggage with prominently-displayed Canadian flags on it, while in hostels in Europe. If they consider being mistaken for an American so terrible that they feel the need to wear a badge everywhere they go, then they can damned well reap the rewards of leaving their maple-leaf-adorned luggage unattended in hostels full of American tourists. Cuts both ways, doesn't it?

I don't do anything terrible, BTW. Just tear off the flag patches in the hopes that they'll spend the rest of their vacations being confused for Americans.

But, often times, and out of the blue, I've had Brits approach me to give me an earful of what they think is wrong with the USA and how horrible it is.

In retrospect, I'm actually glad I got so many of those "lectures" back on my 2002 Europe trip, prior to the Iraq fiasco. To be treated that way when we were still digging bodies out of ground zero made it pretty easy to write off. Now I respond with mock shock, as if I'd never heard such a proposition before, and then tell them what a great service they've done by informing me, since I'm in a position to single-handedly remake American foreign policy and national character with a quick phone call back to the White House.

Dywyddyr

11-19-09, 06:35 PM

In retrospect, I'm actually glad I got so many of those "lectures" back on my 2002 Europe trip, prior to the Iraq fiasco. To be treated that way when we were still digging bodies out of ground zero made it pretty easy to write off. Now I respond with mock shock, as if I'd never heard such a proposition before, and then tell them what a great service they've done by informing me, since I'm in a position to single-handedly remake American foreign policy and national character with a quick phone call back to the White House.
Stunning!
I love it.
:bravo:

Challenger78

11-19-09, 06:37 PM

I don't think a majority of the people dislike Americans for not travelling. But what a minority of them do when they do travel.

But, as a certain american told me. that sort of behavior is common to all anglo-saxon countries. Eastern cultures tend to be slightly more insular. Or maybe just not in the spotlight as often.
Still, there is a perverse irony in seeing representatives of the conquering "civilised" nations dispel their illusions of moral superiority so easily.

superstring01

11-19-09, 06:39 PM

I don't carry them around at home, either. I'm one of those kids who refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance in school once I got old enough to understand that it wasn't mandatory.

I refused to "march" in my graduation. I'm a bit more mellow now (and regret not having done it), but I considered the requirement to wear a cap and gown indoctrinating (And a pledge to a flag. . . really? A flag? Why the damned flag?) My father has only just now forgiven me. My principal had to frakking retire before I could pick up my diploma (ten years later). Though. . . there was the small matter of me playing "Butt Bongo Bananza" (in which a small-ish white woman get's nailed in the pooper by an exceptionally well endowed African fellow moments before the "money shot" during which she was forced to close her eyes to prevent blindness) on the school-wide closed-circuit television system (programmed to start at noon, during my geometry class). The added fact that I pounded tooth-picks into the lock to prevent ease of entry by school authorities, forcing them to break the lock & jam to enter the "electronics room", further complicated the matter.

But I have been known to vandalize baggage with prominently-displayed Canadian flags on it, while in hostels in Europe. If they consider being mistaken for an American so terrible that they feel the need to wear a badge everywhere they go, then they can damned well reap the rewards of leaving their maple-leaf-adorned luggage unattended in hostels full of American tourists. Cuts both ways, doesn't it?

ha-HA! Dick!

I don't do anything terrible, BTW. Just tear off the flag patches in the hopes that they'll spend the rest of their vacations being confused for Americans.

I've got one for you. Before you travel overseas, buy a bunch of American flag stickers, and find a few Canadian bags and "vandalize" them with that unwanted logo. Shit! That's such a good idea, I may have to do it myself!

Now I respond with mock shock, as if I'd never heard such a proposition before, and then tell them what a great service they've done by informing me, since I'm in a position to single-handedly remake American foreign policy and national character with a quick phone call back to the White House.

I'll be using that technique. I hope there's no royalty charge. Where and when I employ it, I'll be sure to give you full credit though.

~String

Alien Cockroach

11-19-09, 06:45 PM

No argument here. Much of Europe is a viciously racist, socialist, lazy bunch of whiners who essentially complain about America for their own sakes because it takes their minds off being taxed to death or the equivalent, if not greater, failures in their own countries.Actually, I have always liked the Germans who visit here. You know, maybe I am just speaking from anecdotes, but the ones I run into are invariably these friendly, intelligent, interested people. They seem to be able to turn almost anything into an enlightening experience, and they are unabashedly perverse. However, I could have just been really really lucky.

Very generally, Europe is idiolized by marginally educated college liberal wannabes for a variety of reasons,Mainly, Bush was an embarrassing, stupid douchebag, and the GOP were making us all look like retards.

However, if the Germans can live down their historical fuck-ups, we can live down ours. In fact, I would wager heavily that the reason you find that Germans tend to be a lot nicer to Americans than most European nationalities is exactly that: they have known all along that we would eventually begin behaving normally again.

The Bush regime may be a pale comparison to other horrors even in our own history, but it was nonetheless an incredibly embarrassing thing to happen so soon after Vietnam.

but if you go there...You would realize that the Frogs (who all stink and wear really horrible perfume) have actually been doing a great deal of biomedical research. To tell you the truth, their material is actually pretty reliable and fairly thorough.

And the UK's institutions are actually fairly competitive with MIT in terms of nanotech and information technology. To tell you the truth, they were working on the idea of a nanotube battery at about the same time that the MIT boys started on it. And have I mentioned that the Information Age was kind of born there?

And the Germans were actually leading the way in alternative fuels for a while, if I recall correctly. I don't know where they are at with it, at this point. By the way, their cars are still better than ours. Our automobiles are actually kind of crappy.

I am not saying that Europe is some special place where everything is fine. On the contrary, I am actually quite convinced that their culture is not all that different from ours.

parmalee

11-19-09, 07:13 PM

hmmm. interesting thread, but it's kinda all over the place. so i shall pretend that i have only read the OP:

europe: i'm usually there on "business"--as a musician, that is. the other continents: i'm usually there as an unpaid wandering minstrel, getting by on a (u.s.) dollar or two a day. but i'll stick with europe as the focus here seems to be more upon europe.

so, europe: i've been all over the place--perhaps 20 countries?--and i've visited the largest cities and tiny little villages. i've heard plenty of opinions about america and americans, both positive and negative, and a few opinions on the "average" american's propensity to travel abroad. given that i am visiting such places for the purpose of performing, most of the individuals with whom i deal most are quite accustomed to dealing with american musicians and have little to say about americans traveling for the sake of traveling. though when wandering about on my own, i occasionally encounter some dismay over the "funny american" who looks like a jew and dresses like a "gypsy." (i don't really--dress like a "gypsy"--but that seems to be the best they can come up with) i've experienced such more in eastern europe, like in little latvian villages (what the hell am i doing playing "weird" music in such places anyways?). still, opinions regarding americans and traveling are few; but i suppose context is everything.

BUT, something i do encounter fairly often--and in any and every place, east or west, big city or little village--is the "jewish issue": people invariably think me a jew (i am partly of ashkenazic descent, but i do not identify myself a jew)--why do they feel compelled to bring this up? moreover, they assume that because i am (to their eyes) a jew, i must come from money! heh, this couldn't be further from the truth.

i really do not know what to make of this. i have not really encountered any anti-semitic attitudes (apart from some skinheads on a train to wroclaw, poland one time), but there is this compulsion on their part to identify me as a jew. sure, there is a significantly smaller percentage of jews in most of europe as compared with america, but why bring it up?

the only parts of the u.s. in which i've encountered a similar phenomenon is in the southeastern states and the western central states (n. dakota, s. dakota, etc.)--but in these instances, there is often an undercurrent of antisemitism as well. in fact, it can be pretty damn creepy and disconcerting at times.

so what is it with the europeans and the jews?

quadraphonics

11-19-09, 07:18 PM

I've got one for you. Before you travel overseas, buy a bunch of American flag stickers, and find a few Canadian bags and "vandalize" them with that unwanted logo. Shit! That's such a good idea, I may have to do it myself!

That is a good idea. Unfortunately I'm now old and rich enough that I rarely stay in hostels, and so do not expect to have unfettered access to Canadian luggage... I can only hope that others pursue this plan in my stead.

superstring01

11-19-09, 07:23 PM

That is a good idea. Unfortunately I'm now old and rich enough that I rarely stay in hostels, and so do not expect to have unfettered access to Canadian luggage... I can only hope that others pursue this plan in my stead.

There's always the Airport! (you just gotta be quick)

Note: I have heard interesting stories from hetero guy-friends about the happenings in various German and Czech hostels. Something about Swedish girls having ZERO inhibitions. The words, "Head. Raunchy. Threesome." Were dropped ad nauseum. Having utilized mostly hotels back when (I was working through a respectibe inheretence [totally spent on travel and drugs]) and stayed in various hotels. My few hostel experiences were in South Beach and NYC. After the movie, of this namesake, I'll avoid any European hostels for the remainder of my life. Being able to afford better accommodations, notwithstanding.

~String

quadraphonics

11-19-09, 07:25 PM

Actually, I have always liked the Germans who visit here. You know, maybe I am just speaking from anecdotes, but the ones I run into are invariably these friendly, intelligent, interested people. They seem to be able to turn almost anything into an enlightening experience, and they are unabashedly perverse. However, I could have just been really really lucky.

However, if the Germans can live down their historical fuck-ups, we can live down ours. In fact, I would wager heavily that the reason you find that Germans tend to be a lot nicer to Americans than most European nationalities is exactly that: they have known all along that we would eventually begin behaving normally again.

The Germans are indeed very nice to Americans. Part of this is cultural affinity: Germans are, far and away, the most prolific exchange students to the US. Some ridiculous percentage of Germans spend a year of high school studying in the US. There's also the matter of there having been hundreds of thousands of US troops stationed in their country for the previous decades, so they also tend to be familiar with Americans from that route.

The other part of it, I think, is that they are very sensitive to their recent history of brutal nationalism, and are eager to put a different cast on their country. If they start talking trash to someone about their country, they'll just be met with some quip about the Holocaust, and so they smartly avoid such base behavior. The British, by way of comparison, don't seem to feel that they have anything to be ashamed of, and so don't hold back.

phlogistician

11-20-09, 03:36 AM

Were you being serious, because it seems like you were trying to be. . . but then couldn't even name a real national park.

Dude, it's Germans who are noted for their lack of sense of humour. Since the USA produced 'Friends' we think we can pull your leg a bit and you'll understand.

It's a popular quote. No need for castles. Telling that you missed that point.

The point is that the term is inherited, as proven by it's etymology and the lack and castles in the USA. Therefore, being inherited, it is not UNIQUE to the USA.

That's subjective. Though, to be fair, the Brits deserve every ounce of credit they've earned for their cultural (rock, included) they've exported. Still, ounce for ounce, no nation has more listeners and watchers (of entertainment) than the USA.

Mass consumption does not equate to the product being superlative though does it? Or McDonalds would boast Michelin star ratings. Sure the US produces a lot of quality music, but you've not had a band like 'The Beatles' or 'The Rolling Stones'. I guess you produce more individuals, like Elvis, Prince, and Michael Jackson, and I'm more into bands. What American music seems to lack for me too, is gritty reality (apart from Country, but I'm not a fan of Hugh ('I love Hugh', etc (pronunciation joke, if I need to explain it)), and music is too often an over produced and polished product.

S.A.M.

11-20-09, 03:53 AM

Just tear off the flag patches in the hopes that they'll spend the rest of their vacations being confused for Americans

Before you travel overseas, buy a bunch of American flag stickers, and find a few Canadian bags and "vandalize" them with that unwanted logo. Shit! That's such a good idea, I may have to do it myself!

So wait! You want them to be mistaken for Americans and treated as such, even when they are not? Why?

And if they are treated badly, what does it prove?

countezero

11-20-09, 10:03 AM

sure sounds like it!

Your problem, not mine.

Personally I dont see America as worse neccesarily - just very backward and very conflicted - but considering it's at least 200 years younger as a nation than pretty much every other developed country in the world, there's no reason why it shouldnt be 200 years behind the rest of the world cuturally, and politically.

You'll catch up

What was that about smug sense of superiority? Oh, yeah. You're making my argument for me. The European notion that America, the nation who invented film, computers, the blues and put a man on the moon, is "backward" and "behind" is exactly what I am talking about. Apparently, having a few Rembrandts on the wall overcomes all of that.

phlogistician

11-20-09, 10:52 AM

America, the nation who invented film,

Do you really think so? I think not. England, I think you'll find. First flexible film is the USA, but that was product development, not invention.

computers,

Ooh no, again not. The name Charles Babbage ring a bell? Alan Turing?

the blues

A good thing to come from slavery!

and put a man on the moon,

Thanks to Werner Von Braun.

Alien Cockroach

11-20-09, 11:34 AM

The British, by way of comparison, don't seem to feel that they have anything to be ashamed of, and so don't hold back.Well, I am not sure. I think the British are just naturally a very sharp-tongued bunch. It's not that they are nasty, in my experience. Far from it. They just seem to have coarse mannerisms that I am sure must grate on some people's teeth. Frankly, I find it comforting. I feel relaxed around it.

On the other hand, I can see a huge distinction between older French people and younger French people. The older ones, middle-aged and up, are just as creepy and weird as they are famous for being. They will sit there and stare at you sometimes, and they do not understand at all how rude this is to do. The younger ones seem to be pretty hip and upbeat, and they try more readily to make you feel comfortable, like you can be yourself. That has been my experience.

superstring01

11-20-09, 12:10 PM

So wait! You want them to be mistaken for Americans and treated as such, even when they are not? Why?

And if they are treated badly, what does it prove?

It was a joke, SAM. You should really learn to develop a sense of humor.

I think I can speak for Quad when I say that we have better things to do than sit around placing Stars & Stripes stickers on Canadian luggage. Do a little substitution: Pakistan for Canada. India for the USA. It's really quite amusing. Imagine the look on the mug of a Pakistani when he collects his luggage with Indian flags all over it.

Fun to think about though! Just imagine the reaction.

~String

John99

11-20-09, 12:12 PM

i met a new zealender and i asked him if he was ausrtalian he said 'i am from new zealand, it is next to australia'

Alien Cockroach

11-20-09, 12:18 PM

i met a new zealender and i asked him if he was ausrtalian he said 'i am from new zealand, it is next to australia'And Muldoon said, "New Zealanders who emigrate to Australia raise the IQ of both countries."

S.A.M.

11-20-09, 12:25 PM

It was a joke, SAM. You should really learn to develop a sense of humor.

I think I can speak for Quad when I say that we have better things to do than sit around placing Stars & Stripes stickers on Canadian luggage. Do a little substitution: Pakistan for Canada. India for the USA. It's really quite amusing. Imagine the look on the mug of a Pakistani when he collects his luggage with Indian flags all over it.

Fun to think about though! Just imagine the reaction.

~String

The real joke would be for an Indian to find himself in the questioning room of an airport because of the Pakistani flags on his luggage. Its also a more appropriate analogy.

John99

11-20-09, 12:29 PM

And Muldoon said, "New Zealanders who emigrate to Australia raise the IQ of both countries."

i've heard that before. muldoon is from the xfiles? i never saw that show.

quadraphonics

11-20-09, 01:32 PM

So wait! You want them to be mistaken for Americans and treated as such, even when they are not? Why?

The fact that an explicit flag patch is necessary to differentiate them from Americans in the first place demonstrates the absurdity of the expectation of different treatment.

And if they are treated badly, what does it prove?

That the people treating them badly are ignorant bigots.

But the point is for them to notice that people don't generally treat Americans differently than Canadians, and so the whole flag-wearing bit amounts to little more than them going out of their way to advertize their dislike of Americans.

Hence my reactions.

S.A.M.

11-20-09, 01:51 PM

people don't generally treat Americans differently than Canadians

I'm sorry. Thats just not true. Why do you think Americans pretend to be Canadians?

The package’s quick reference guide offers tips in case an American in disguise gets quizzed on Canada. On sports the guide suggests: “This is easy to remember. There is only one real sport in Canada and it is called hockey. Regardless of any trivia question, the answer is ‘Wayne Gretzky’.”

If a Canadian had to “deke out of a meeting”, it means he avoided the meeting. If someone is headed to “Hogtown”, that is Canadian for Toronto. A trip to “Cowtown” means that the person is going to Calgary.

TALK LIKE A NATIVE: AN AH TO ZED GUIDE

Allophone: someone whose first language is neither English nor French
Chesterfield: a sofa
Eh?: an utterance regularly injected into conversations which has the meaning “don’t you think?”
Elevator: lift
Homo milk: full fat (homogenised) milk
Housecoat: dressing gown
Keener: sycophant, an overly keen person
Lineup: queue
Loonie: one dollar coin, on which appears a
Loon: native Canadian bird
Pogey: unemployment benefit
Poutine: a dish typical to Quebec consisting of fries, cheese curds and gravy
Runners: trainers
Tap: the same as in British English, rather than the US faucet
The States: the USA
Toonie: two dollar coin
Tuque: knitted hat
Washroom: toilet
Zed: the final letter of the alphabet

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article400327.ece

John99

11-20-09, 01:52 PM

I'm sorry. Thats just not true. Why do you think Americans pretend to be Canadians?

where does this happen?

Asguard

11-20-09, 02:29 PM

NZers really ARE jelous of Australia:p They simply regret that they turned down the offer to join Australia when the federation was created. Quick fact, did you know that NZ is actually closer to the east coast of Australia than Perth is?

quadraphonics

11-20-09, 03:36 PM

I'm sorry. Thats just not true. Why do you think Americans pretend to be Canadians?

Other than comic relief? They don't, in any significant numbers.

And by the way, "tap" and "the States" are used exactly the same ways in the USA.

S.A.M.

11-20-09, 04:11 PM

Other than comic relief? They don't, in any significant numbers.

Has anyone studied this?

And by the way, "tap" and "the States" are used exactly the same ways in the USA.

Thats probably in the travelers who used those packages :D

Tiassa

11-20-09, 04:32 PM

Sure the US produces a lot of quality music, but you've not had a band like 'The Beatles' ....

The Beach Boys.

Why do you think Sgt. Pepper sounds like it does?

quadraphonics

11-20-09, 04:34 PM

Has anyone studied this?

Not you, apparently. I've never heard of anyone seriously posing as a Canadian while travelling abroad.

Thats probably in the travelers who used those packages :D

It's everyone. I haven't heard the term "faucet" used in recent memory. "Tap" has been standard for ages now.

quadraphonics

11-20-09, 04:44 PM

The Beach Boys.

Aerosmith, Van Halen, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Guns N' Roses, Dave Mathews Band, The Eagles, Journey, Grateful Dead, The Doors, R.E.M., Metallica, KISS, Creedence Clearwater Revival, The Ramones, Slayer, CSN&Y, ZZ Top, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, etc. etc. etc.

I'd agree that the UK punches above its weight when it comes to rock bands, but it's not like the US is anything less than a colossus in that area.

mike47

11-20-09, 05:19 PM

Give me Chuck berry and take all the rest ......:D .

John99

11-20-09, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by Phlogistician

Sure the US produces a lot of quality music, but you've not had a band like 'The Beatles

i love british music. very few countries even come close, outside of the u.s but the beatles are way over rated....thats my opinion. in fact the rolling stones are\were much more muisically deeper.

iceaura

11-20-09, 10:10 PM

Do you really think so? I think not. England, I think you'll find. First flexible film is the USA, but that was product development, not invention.

”
Ooh no, again not. The name Charles Babbage ring a bell? Alan Turing?

“
the blues
”
A good thing to come from slavery!

“
and put a man on the moon,
”
Thanks to Werner Von Braun.

Another American cultural advantage - we assimilate from all over. Food, legal structure, music, vocabulary, you name it. We might overlook the proper credit, but we don't turn down the good stuff.

It's everyone. I haven't heard the term "faucet" used in recent memory. "Tap" has been standard for ages now. {the States} Also "loon".

And "eh", in some places. The US is pretty big.

phlogistician

11-21-09, 07:13 AM

The Beach Boys.

OK, a band, and popular, but I don't recall the term 'Beach Boy Mania' and the accompanying hysteria over them. Were they 'bigger than God'?

Why do you think Sgt. Pepper sounds like it does?

I attribute a lot of the Beatles lyrics and melodies to LSD. :-)

synthesizer-patel

11-21-09, 10:13 AM

What was that about smug sense of superiority?

As chairman and founder member of the RSRIFC, I'm very much afraid that its my job to have one.

http://www.sciforums.com/group.php?groupid=26

John99

11-21-09, 11:06 AM

As chairman and founder member of the RSRIFC, I'm very much afraid that its my job to have one.

http://www.sciforums.com/group.php?groupid=26

you can be an arrogant scum bag all you want. no one will care.

Dywyddyr

11-21-09, 11:07 AM

you can be an arrogant scum bag all you want. no one will care.
Hmm, do I detect a very slight sense of humour failure somewhere around here?

Obviously you cared enough to comment.:rolleyes:

John99

11-21-09, 11:08 AM

Hmm, do I detect a very slight sense of humour failure somewhere around here?

no. no failure.

synthesizer-patel

11-21-09, 12:01 PM

no. no failure.

quite right - one needs to be in possession a sense of humour in order for it to experience failure

Tiassa

11-21-09, 12:47 PM

OK, a band, and popular, but I don't recall the term 'Beach Boy Mania' and the accompanying hysteria over them. Were they 'bigger than God'?

And?

Or, to be more specific:

"Mass consumption does not equate to the product being superlative though does it?" (#2418848/78 (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2418848&postcount=78))

Beatlemania is irrelevant to the consideration.

The answer to the Sgt. Pepper question is Pet Sounds. Don't get me wrong; drugs had a bit to do with it, but a trip to the American west coast changed the Beatles.

The Beach Boys, "Vegetables (http://drop.io/sim5i9c/asset/beach-boys-vegetables-stereo)"

It's a curious song that, as I recall, was written in response to an advert Brian Wilson saw for a jingle contest. I don't recall that it was ever used to this purpose, though, eventually being released in alternate form on Smiley Smile, which was, in its own right, a disastrous album despite the number of strong tracks. However, at approximately fifty seconds, you'll hear an odd rhythmic "crunch" take up the percussion. The official credit on that, I believe, would be, "Paul McCartney, celery".

That's right. The percussion section for "Vegetables" is the Cute Beatle chewing celery, recorded in 1966.

Imagine you're Paul McCartney, and visiting The Beach Boys in the studio, and it's a completely bizarre experience. The orchestra is crawling around on the floor, barking like dogs and bleating like sheep (Pet Sounds, 1966) and performing odd compositions like "George Fell Into His French Horn" (SMiLE sessions, 1966). The experience changed the way The Beatles looked at composition, and transformed what would become Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

synthesizer-patel

11-21-09, 01:15 PM

Understood or not, these British groups left no doubt about their debt. Indeed, they went out of their way to record it. When the Beatles first came to America they told everyone they wanted to see Muddy Waters and Bo Diddley; one reporter asked: 'Muddy Waters … Where's that?' Paul McCartney laughed and said, 'Don't you know who your own famous people are here?' Eric Clapton quoted Little Walter, Chuck Berry, Bib Bill Broonzy, Robert Johnson, and Blind Boy Fuller, but above all B. B. King; Muddy Waters was discovered by white America only after the Rolling Stones took their name from one of his tunes. John Lee Hooker understood when he said: 'It may seem corny to you, but this is true: the groups from England really started the blues rolling and getting bigger among the kids – the White kids. At one time, fifteen years back, the blues was just among the blacks – the old Black people. And this uprise started in England by the Beatles, Animals, Rolling Stones, it started everybody to digging the blues'.

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/002654.html

John99

11-21-09, 01:18 PM

Eric Clapton quoted Little Walter, Chuck Berry, Bib Bill Broonzy, Robert Johnson, and Blind Boy Fuller, but above all B. B. King; Muddy Waters was discovered by white America only after the Rolling Stones took their name from one of his tunes.

gtfooh.

iceaura

11-21-09, 03:44 PM

'It may seem corny to you, but this is true: the groups from England really started the blues rolling and getting bigger among the kids – the White kids. At one time, fifteen years back, the blues was just among the blacks – the old Black people. And this uprise started in England by the Beatles, Animals, Rolling So what.

Blacks are not American? You're giving England credit for Alan Turing having invented the computer, thereby destroying all American claims to the thing (the transistor, the PC, none of it) and you aren't giving America credit for what Keith Richards lifted from the blues. Bizarre.

Even the people who brought the records to England, who dug out the old recordings and traveled the American southeast and midwest looking for the musicians - often long forgotten by the locals, who had moved on to other music - were Americans, no?

DRZion

11-21-09, 04:18 PM

However, that does not mean that I condone all the nasty, arrogant, and self-righteous condemnation that Americans often have to deal with, especially from those who originate in Europe.

In the meantime, the Europeans who criticize Americans on that basis need to get their heads rewired and think a little bit more with their brains instead of their mouths before trashing the freest and most productive country in the world.

Yes, the US is the freest in many categories, freest of outside invasions, freest of tradition, freest of military oppression, freest of any kinds of plagues and famines, freest of any kind of land struggles. If you build your capitalist-utopia on top of that, kudos to you. :cool:

EntropyAlwaysWins

11-21-09, 07:53 PM

Yes, the US is the freest in many categories, freest of outside invasions, freest of tradition, freest of military oppression, freest of any kinds of plagues and famines, freest of any kind of land struggles. If you build your capitalist-utopia on top of that, kudos to you. :cool:

Are you honestly making the claim that foreign invasion, military occupation, plagues, famines and land struggles are somehow good for a country? That they are a feature that is desirable? Because it sounded awfully like you were.
Tradition on the other hand, the US has plenty of traditions.

DRZion

11-21-09, 08:38 PM

Are you honestly making the claim that foreign invasion, military occupation, plagues, famines and land struggles are somehow good for a country? That they are a feature that is desirable? Because it sounded awfully like you were.

No Entropy, I am saying the opposite. And because the united states never had to go through any of these things it is a country of privilege. I wasn't being completely serious with my last post, I was just trying to show where my anti-american sentiment is rooted. Other than that, I don't really have any problems with the USA or US americans. :)

EntropyAlwaysWins

11-21-09, 08:44 PM

No Entropy, I am saying the opposite. And because the united states never had to go through any of these things it is a country of privilege. I wasn't being completely serious with my last post, but I can certainly empathize with anti-american sentiments.

Fair enough. No person or country is perfect, to believe otherwise would be foolish.

DRZion

11-21-09, 09:06 PM

Fair enough. No person or country is perfect, to believe otherwise would be foolish.

I'm not sure if I understand you right.. The US doesn't have to be perfect in order to draw power from a homogenized world. All america has to do is create a difference in power that will mold other countries - by setting the stage america can still have a large influence on world affairs without breaking any humanitarian conventions. :shrug:

countezero

11-22-09, 02:22 AM

Do you really think so? I think not. England, I think you'll find. First flexible film is the USA, but that was product development, not invention.

Yes, I do really think so. It was the Black Maria in Edison's workshop and the industry that eventually grew up around it that gave the world the media of films, which is a large part of why Hollywood was and remains the film capital of the world.

Elsewhere, culturally speaking, you have an American inventing the short story (Poe) and numerous American writers changing prose in the 20th century (Stein, Hemingway, Faulkner, Wolfe). You have music being radically altered first by the America blues and jazz artists, then again by the rock n roll pioneers. More recently, rap and hip-hop.

This is to say nothing of blue jeans, fast-food, trainers, television, telephones or any of the other ubiquitous items American has given the world.

Oh, and then there's the whole internet thing, right?

Ooh no, again not. The name Charles Babbage ring a bell? Alan Turing?

Yes, I know them both. Again, both men develop primitive single-function machines that have limited value until the United States revamps them. And lest we all forget, the PC and what we understand today as an operating system is developed in the US. The computer and IT revolution occurs in Silicon Valley California and Seattle.

A good thing to come from slavery

Yeah. The US is the only nation ever to enslave people. :rolleyes:

Thanks to Werner Von Braun.

Now, you're just being an ass and playing games. The fact you can point to a foreign-national involved with something totally removes an achievement from a nation's column? What other country COULD put a man on the moon? What other country HAS put a man on the moon?

But let's follow your logic; I guess England didn't win the Battle of Trafalgar, because there were Americans and Irishmen and Dutch people crewing the ships. And to return to Mr. Turing, the "bombs" he invented to break German codes could never have worked without the contributions of the Poles, so take that out of England's column, too, right?

Again, you're making my argument for me. European walks around with this ridiculous claim to "advanced" culture. What such arguments fail to grasp is that American culture is built on the same European culture. That is, it's in our background -- through our immigrants and intellectual history -- too. Where do you think our Declaration of Independence came from? Do you think we just made it up? It, like the rest of our culture, is an advancement on European ideas.

phlogistician

11-22-09, 10:22 AM

Yes, I do really think so. It was the Black Maria in Edison's workshop and the industry that eventually grew up around it that gave the world the media of films,

Forgotten the Lumiere Brothers have we?

This is to say nothing of blue jeans,

Blue jeans, made of what fabric? Of, that's right, denim, 'De Nim' a French cloth.

trainers,

The Plimsol is American?

television,

John Logie Baird was Amercian?

telephones

Alexander Graham Bell was American?

or any of the other ubiquitous items American has given the world.

So far you've only really got fast food that's standing up

Oh, and then there's the whole internet thing, right?

Yeah, but it was Tim Berners Lee that gave us the World Wide Web. There were 'Internets' before the Internet, JANET being one, and we had Prestel services in the UK from the late 70's

Yes, I know them both. Again, both men develop primitive single-function machines

Clearly you don't know the work of Alan Turing; the whole point of a 'Turing Machine' was that it was programmable, and able to perform a variety of logical tasks. It was the framework for modern computing.

that have limited value until the United States revamps them.

Again you show ignorance about Turing, and the real life use of computers to crack the Enigma cipher.

And lest we all forget, the PC and what we understand today as an operating system is developed in the US.

Ooh, no, again , Alan Turing invented the concept of the Operating System. The PC, again no, French invention, sorry.

What other country HAS put a man on the moon?

The former Soviet Union could have. China will.

On success in space, America needed the Moon landings to save face, having been beaten by the USSR at every turn;

First artifical satellite, First object to leave Earth orbit, first object to land on the Moon, first soft landing on the Moon, first to photograph the far side of the Moon, first to Venus, first to Mars first lunar rover, first man in space, first space walk, first woman in space, first space station, and holders of space endurance records thanks to the Mir space station.

OK, so you have fast food. Oh wait, did the USA invent Fish and Chips? No, OK, so you invented the burger, but not the concept of fast food.

Toodle pip, and have fun wallowing in your revisionism.

Dywyddyr

11-22-09, 10:28 AM

Clearly you don't know the work of Alan Turing; the whole point of a 'Turing Machine' was that it was programmable, and able to perform a variety of logical tasks. It was the framework for modern computing.
Babbage's was intended to be programmable, which is why Ada Lovelace spent so much time with him (and got a nod of recognition from the US DoD when they called their "universal programming language" ADA).

superstring01

11-22-09, 11:42 AM

Blue jeans, made of what fabric? Of, that's right, denim, 'De Nim' a French cloth.

Whatever, Phlo. The point is, it took an American industrialist to realize that tent material made really sturdy pants. His connection to Europe and the French only come by way of the fact that the USA is a European nation.

Yeah, but it was Tim Berners Lee that gave us the World Wide Web. There were 'Internets' before the Internet, JANET being one, and we had Prestel services in the UK from the late 70's

Either way, none of those nascent networks really achieved anything. In the end, it took the US military to create the only lasting network of computers. In fact, so powerful is the US internet base, that ICANN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Corporation_for_Assigned_Names_and_Number s) and 10 of the 13 master DNS are American while 9 out of those 10 are fullly based and operated in the USA (effectively, under American control, even to this day despite the fact that the US government chooses to play a hands-off game with both of them). The one single master root server (the "A" server") is controlled rather quietly in an undisclosed spot in Northern Virginia, still to this day, by a US DOD controlled corporation. All this stems from one truth: the Internet is an American invention like the steel plough is. Yes, John Deere invented it, but his invention--LIKE ALL INVENTIONS--is merely another layer on top of some other person's inventions. Siting all the people the contributed to it is reasonable, but it doesn't negate the fact that Deere and Deere alone invented the steel plough.

Clearly you don't know the work of Alan Turing; the whole point of a 'Turing Machine' was that it was programmable, and able to perform a variety of logical tasks. It was the framework for modern computing.

Nobody is even debating the fact that the Brits--ounce for ounce--punch higher than any nation except, maybe, Germany in the world of scientific and cultural contributions. Nobody even compares. That said, the computer revolution, including the invention of (the first real personal computer, etc) comes from the USA. Just take a look at all the nifty stuff that's come out of Seattle, Silicon Valley, especially PARC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_PARC).

The former Soviet Union could have. China will.

That just sounded petty and pointless.

The point is: nobody else HAS. Shit, eventually the Aborigines would have invented the computer and put a man on the moon if nobody on earth existed. . . given enough time ANY civilization will do exactly what everybody else did. All of these "inventions" and "achievements" were going to be done by somebody at some point in time. The Write Brothers made the first sustainably flyable plane. . . but in a few more years--had they not--somebody somewhere else would have. The point stands that, thus far, only the US has. Speculating about what may be or would have been is not a valid argument in this case.

On success in space, America needed the Moon landings to save face, having been beaten by the USSR at every turn;

Nobody's denying Russian successes or their "firsts". They deserve every ounce of credit they get. But. . . uh, are you denying that the USA put a man on the moon?

~String

phlogistician

11-22-09, 12:19 PM

Whatever, Phlo. The point is, it took an American industrialist to realize that tent material made really sturdy pants.

Afraid not, 'De Nim' was utilised as Naval Uniform material by several nations already, long before Levi Strauss started making trousers.

Either way, none of those nascent networks really achieved anything.

I was using JANET to send emails to fellow students in the 80's. All UK Academic sites had access to JANET, so yes, those other networks rather did achieve something, they allowed British academics to colloborate.

Nobody wanted access to the Internet at home, until the World Wide Web was created. FACT. Do you think Tim Berners Lee would have thought to use the Internet, if he hadn't seen the value of JANET, and thought bigger? Nobody wanted WAIS, or Gopher, TBL gave us Mosaic, and BOOM! Here we are.

That said, the computer revolution, including the invention of (the first real personal computer, etc) comes from the USA.

FRANCE.

That just sounded petty and pointless.

Boohoo for you.

The point is: nobody else HAS. Shit, eventually the Aborigines would have invented the computer and put a man on the moon if nobody on earth existed. . .

You think? Interesting idea, but they are a stone age culture, and didn't look set to evolve cultutally much beyond that before settlement. It's rather arrogant to assume humans would always develop technology.

All of these "inventions" and "achievements" were going to be done by somebody at some point in time.

Go tell that to Zero who seems to be under several other false impressions too.

Nobody's denying Russian successes or their "firsts". They deserve every ounce of credit they get. But. . . uh, are you denying that the USA put a man on the moon?

Of course I'm not and to infer such is dishonest.

countezero

11-22-09, 03:08 PM

StrawDog

11-22-09, 03:41 PM

And?

Or, to be more specific:

"Mass consumption does not equate to the product being superlative though does it?" (#2418848/78 (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2418848&postcount=78))

Beatlemania is irrelevant to the consideration.

The answer to the Sgt. Pepper question is Pet Sounds. Don't get me wrong; drugs had a bit to do with it, but a trip to the American west coast changed the Beatles.

The Beach Boys, "Vegetables (http://drop.io/sim5i9c/asset/beach-boys-vegetables-stereo)"

It's a curious song that, as I recall, was written in response to an advert Brian Wilson saw for a jingle contest. I don't recall that it was ever used to this purpose, though, eventually being released in alternate form on Smiley Smile, which was, in its own right, a disastrous album despite the number of strong tracks. However, at approximately fifty seconds, you'll hear an odd rhythmic "crunch" take up the percussion. The official credit on that, I believe, would be, "Paul McCartney, celery".

That's right. The percussion section for "Vegetables" is the Cute Beatle chewing celery, recorded in 1966.

Imagine you're Paul McCartney, and visiting The Beach Boys in the studio, and it's a completely bizarre experience. The orchestra is crawling around on the floor, barking like dogs and bleating like sheep (Pet Sounds, 1966) and performing odd compositions like "George Fell Into His French Horn" (SMiLE sessions, 1966). The experience changed the way The Beatles looked at composition, and transformed what would become Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
Interesting take, and a definite sound shift occurred.

Do you think Donovan influenced Dylan somewhat?

PsychoTropicPuppy

11-22-09, 04:38 PM

Ah, there's this retarded conversation I had with two British about 2nd World War, and how the US Americans, and the Russians came to save us. They both claimed that the US just came fishing for medals, and that the Russians were better, etc. They kept on thrashing the US, and praising the Bolsheviks. Well, I told them that I would have preferred if the US Americans would have come to get us rid of the Nazis instead of the Bolsheviks. At least the US Americans were so kind to leave contrarily to the Bolsheviks, who then gave us 41 years of no freedom, fear, murdered our intellectuals, etc.

Well, what else could I expect from these two? They probably have no clue about what it felt like for families that were considered as a threat in the commie times. They both came off as ignorant "hail USSR" dumbies just because they hate the USA.

John99

11-22-09, 07:00 PM

the vacuum tube is also american:

http://inventors.about.com/od/uvstartinventions/a/Vacuum_tube.htm

John99

11-22-09, 07:22 PM

Perfect example.
The seemingly automatic assumption that any criticism (or dislike) is based on jealousy. :rolleyes:

where did you get that assumption from?

John99

11-22-09, 07:23 PM

*lets see, i have a pm. wonder who is busting my balls now*

John99

11-22-09, 07:24 PM

*yep i had a feeling who it was. should i read it? does it matter?*

no, it doesnt matter.

superstring01

11-23-09, 01:40 AM

You're whole argument is totally one sided. You acknowledge the inventions of "others" outside the USA while not calling in to account those who lead up to their inventions, but on every American invention you pigeon-whole them by adding the requirement that every single one be accredited to some event or person who came before them. A little hypocritical.

Afraid not, 'De Nim' was utilised as Naval Uniform material by several nations already, long before Levi Strauss started making trousers.

Didn't deny that, nor do I care about the history. All I stated is that Levi Strauss was the first one to make jeans from them. Nothing more. Nothing less.

I was using JANET to send emails to fellow students in the 80's. All UK Academic sites had access to JANET, so yes, those other networks rather did achieve something, they allowed British academics to colloborate.

Do you realize who utterly pointless this statement is? Okay, fine. Wonderful. You used another system. Are you using it now?

Nobody wanted access to the Internet at home, until the World Wide Web was created. FACT. Do you think Tim Berners Lee would have thought to use the Internet, if he hadn't seen the value of JANET, and thought bigger? Nobody wanted WAIS, or Gopher, TBL gave us Mosaic, and BOOM! Here we are.

Actually, that was either a blatant lie or an oversight due to ignorance. Universities all around the world, and certainly in North America were using and were clamoring to use TCP/IP, if they were, Phlog, why did CERN & TBL work so hard in creating the WWW to work on it, and not some other network?

See. You're so desperate to hate everything American. You won't even give credit where credit is due, even when the proof is apparent. But strive in a blatantly biased manner to stretch every invention of non-Americans as significantly important. And the funny thing is, nobody is even denying the contributions of other nations. The only person here that's doing that is you, about Americans.

FRANCE.

Prove it.

The first mass produced computers were Commodore and then Apple. Do a little digging.

Boohoo for you.

Boo hoo? You're the one acting like an ignorant fool, denying credit where credit is due just because you don't like the truth. Not that we haven't seen this from you before (hows HDDVD working out for you?)

It's rather arrogant to assume humans would always develop technology.

No, Phlog, it's empirical fact. Do a little digging. Humans develop things. They all do. That's the hallmark of intelligence. Every intelligent species on earth has many parallel technological developments. It's only arrogant to assume that yours will and others won't.

Of course I'm not and to infer such is dishonest.

Well, that's been your due course for this entire discussion. I.E> American inventions aren't American, but European ones belong to Europe, etc.

Take a look at any list of inventions over the past century and a half. Compare the recipients of the Nobel Prizes. I can't for the life of me accept that this gives the USA special privileges in the world, but it's a fact that only those blinded by their hatred would ever attempt to deny.

~String

superstring01

11-23-09, 02:01 AM

Alexander Graham Bell didn't invent the Telephone until he accepted American citizenship. Part of the greatness of the USA is in not caring about where a person was born. He was an American citizen by choice; he willingly disavowed any allegiance to his former country and swore an oath of loyalty to his new nation. This, in an age when people actually took such things seriously.

Television - (Iconoscope–T.V. camera table), Vladimir Zworkin, U.S., 1923, and also kinescope (cathode ray tube), 1928; (mechanical disk-scanning method) successfully demonstrated by J.K. Baird, England, C.F. Jenkins, U.S., 1926; (first all-electric television image), 1927, Philo T. Farnsworth, U.S; (color, mechanical disk) Baird, 1928; (color, compatible with black and white) George Valensi, France, 1938; (color, sequential rotating filter) Peter Goldmark, U.S., first introduced, 1951; (color, compatible with black and white) commercially introduced in U.S., National Television Systems Committee, 1953. (there's a lot of international bodies in there, but by weight, it's proportionately more American than anything else)

Air conditioning - Willis Carrier

Revolver - Samuel Colt

Motion pictures - Thomas A. Edison

the Airplane - Wright Brothers

Electric Transformer - William Stanley

Rocket (liquid-fueled) - Robert Goddard

Mechanical Reaper - Cyrus McCormic

Vulcanized Rubber Tires - Goodyear

Cotton Gin - Eli Whitney

Telegraph - Morse

Automated Assembly Line - Henry Ford

Windows OS - Bill Gates - Um. . . windows, you know, the software used by 90% of the world's computers. Taken from inventions by Apple (Steve Jobs) an American.

Steamboat - Robert Fulton

Zipper - W. L. Judson

Typewriter - Christopher Sholes, Carlos Glidden

Transistor: John Bardeen, Walter H. Brattain, William B. Shockley

Just to name a few of the many.

Then there are the numerous--and I admit, troublesome--cultural contributions that the USA has made to the world.

~String

______________________________________________
Famous Inventions & Discoveries (http://www.indianchild.com/inventions.htm)

sniffy

11-23-09, 03:43 AM

Though. . . there was the small matter of me playing "Butt Bongo Bananza" (in which a small-ish white woman get's nailed in the pooper by an exceptionally well endowed African fellow moments before the "money shot" during which she was forced to close her eyes to prevent blindness) on the school-wide closed-circuit television system (programmed to start at noon, during my geometry class).

LOL! Bet you got a distinction for that.

phlogistician

11-23-09, 05:02 AM

I'm not under any false impressions. Indeed, the ironic part of all of this is that you display the exact attitude I initially pointed out (the hate-America, it's never done anything attitude). So far as that goes, there's no point in discussing anything with you. You've made my argument for me. I never wished to engage in a country-to-country comparison of who did what first. All I wanted to prove is that Europeans look down on American culture. You've proved that in spades. Congratulations.

So you've given up because you can't support your claims.

I'm not America bashing, that's just a cop out allegation.

Simply, synthesizer patel issued a challenge for Iceaura to list seven things that made America _superior_ and he failed to do that, listing things common to many nations. You then piled in with a list of 'inventions' that are not solely American.

All I was doing was pointing out your errors. I was not bashing America.

phlogistician

11-23-09, 05:09 AM

[
the Airplane - Wright Brothers

Oooh, I'm afraid not. They get credit for the first _controlled_ flight.

They were not the first to fly a powered aircraft.

Tiassa

11-23-09, 05:43 AM

Was this thread going to do anything other than turn into a territorial pissing contest? Look, there are at least four distinct issues generally not considered:

• Legitimate criticism of the American endeavor
• America-bashing
• Legitimate appreciation of the American endeavor
• Jingoism

One of the problems I'm encountering with this discussion is that there's not a whole lot of consideration of the difference between legitimate and illegitimate criticism. In the media, common discourse, and here at Sciforums, there are often accusations of bashing that attempt to deflect legitimate criticism.

I might, for instance, take a hard line on abortion and denounce Ireland, but in terms of world impact, Ireland isn't about to run off invading Iraq looking for weapons of mass destruction that aren't there and then completely botching the whole show. The United States is in a unique position in the world. Right now, we are the world leaders. And while that doesn't necessarily mean that unique rules apply to us, it does mean that our actions often affect the world to a greater magnitude. If some minor fascist player tortures suspects, that's bad enough. The world condemns it. And while the world condemns the torture and abuse of terror suspects in American custody—as well as our extraordinary rendition program—the fact that America has undertaken such means, and the fact that America is prepared to look past its sins, undermines our nation—and the world—in its struggle against tyranny. Yes, that we do it has much greater impact on the world than similar crimes by smaller, less-influential nations. Leadership requires exemplary demonstration, and all throughout our culture that burden is proving greater than many are willing to accept. There is much to criticize about the direction we have chosen, and if it is true—and to some degree it is—that our relative lack of foreign travel and problems with basic geography contribute to these decisions, we might expect to hear about it.

The question, of course, is how far is too far.

To call Americans lazy, for instance, will ruffle feathers because Americans work harder than most, if not all, their first-world neighbors. They're not lazy. A useful, underlying accusation can be extracted, but what is there to separate it from the rest? In this case, the "laziness" is a matter of superficiality. Regardless of what you might think of any of our individual American members, even our misinformed neighbors are more deeply engaged than the average citizen. For instance, I've had plenty of conversations over the years with people who decry judicial activism because of some recent decision, but have never actually read any written decision, much less the one they're actually complaining about. And this is sort of where the "lazy" criticism comes from. The American middle class is highly specialized; but it is often fair to question their comprehension of issues outside their immediate spheres of interest. One might know a lot about, say, advertising—imagine it's their career—and hiking and ecology—derived from their hobbies—but be absolutely clueless about the rhetorical issues by which they select the candidates they vote for. After all, how often do people get upset because the law they voted for violates the Constitution? They might want to pass a law and enforce the rule of law, but they don't understand that the rule of law says no to the law they want to pass.

Or something like that.

And when it comes to our engagement as a nation with the international community, similar short-circuits of the logic in our national conscience can have terrifying and devastating effects. So, yes, we have the world's attention. Especially when we're fucking up.

I'm not prepared to relinquish our leadership role; rather, I would prefer we go about it properly.

In the meantime, international critics ought to remember that Americans are very creative within their neuroses; if your criticism is too vague, people will find a way to reject it. It's not enough just to say that Americans are fat, dumb, or lazy. There are specific processes afoot that create the outcomes you disdain. Identify these—e.g., don't be ... uh ... well, you know—and it becomes much more difficult to simply flick away the criticism as if it was a crumb on our sleeve.

superstring01

11-23-09, 10:35 AM

LOL! Bet you got a distinction for that.

There was some minor legal action. . . and the overall lack of incriminating evidence probably saved me. Rumor has it, I wore rubber medical gloves. Nobody knows for sure.

~String

Dywyddyr

11-23-09, 10:51 AM

But the Wright Brothers are credited everywhere on earth as the father's of modern aviation.
~String
Not quite.
There's quite a bit of investigation going in serious aviation history (as opposed to say, Discovery Channel watchers) and at the moment it looks as though Clement Ader's Eole is a pretty good contender.

superstring01

11-23-09, 10:57 AM

A ban? For correcting your history? Jesus wept string you've gone power mad.

No. A ban for being a troll and acting like douche. Your methodology is: everything one nation does, it does not get credit for, but all the things other nations do, they get credit for. You've continued trolling using that flawed syllogism and it's becoming tiresome.

If you have something intelligent to contribute, do so. Otherwise leave.

~String

superstring01

11-23-09, 10:58 AM

Not quite.
There's quite a bit of investigation going in serious aviation history (as opposed to say, Discovery Channel watchers) and at the moment it looks as though Clement Ader's Eole is a pretty good contender.

Really, where else? What authoritative source is debating this issue outside great non-TV network watchers like yourself?

Is this claim substantiated by any authority? Every source I can find on the guy discredits his claims.

~String

Dywyddyr

11-23-09, 11:30 AM

Really, where else? What authoritative source is debating this issue outside great non-TV network watchers like yourself?
Royal Aeronautical Society for one. ;)

Is this claim substantiated by any authority?
Until the final verdict is out it's unlikely to be.

Every source I can find on the guy discredits his claims.
Well duh!
Isn't that the case with EVERY dispute until the "old regime" is overthrown?
(IF it is, I'm not saying that Ader will be vindicated, simply that the guy has a chance of it).

phlogistician

11-23-09, 12:52 PM

Well duh!
Isn't that the case with EVERY dispute until the "old regime" is overthrown?
(IF it is, I'm not saying that Ader will be vindicated, simply that the guy has a chance of it).

Of course there's always Hiram Maxim too.

Ellie

11-23-09, 12:56 PM

So you've given up because you can't support your claims.

I'm not America bashing, that's just a cop out allegation.

Simply, synthesizer patel issued a challenge for Iceaura to list seven things that made America _superior_ and he failed to do that, listing things common to many nations.
All I was doing was pointing out your errors. I was not bashing America.

Inferiority complexes are stupid.

You then piled in with a list of 'inventions' that are not solely American.

And that is how you weasel out of things? Of course you will say 'well the sole of the shoe is not....' blah, blah, blah. It is disingenuous and you can deny it but that will not change anything.

countezero

11-23-09, 03:36 PM

So you've given up because you can't support your claims.

No, I've decided you're a complete waste of time and not worth speaking to. You address what points you want, ignore others and make inane and stupid arguments.

I'm not America bashing, that's just a cop out allegation.

Perhaps it's inevitable that America would come up in a thread about those who trash America, but as I have already pointed out, the point of my argument was the Europeans who smugly trash America -- for whatever reason -- and you've proven that by behaving in the exact same manner. Good for you.

Simply, synthesizer patel issued a challenge for Iceaura to list seven things that made America _superior_ and he failed to do that, listing things common to many nations. You then piled in with a list of 'inventions' that are not solely American.

Culture is much more than inventions, a point I've made and you've ignored. I've also listed plenty of cultural expressions -- in film and in literature -- that you chose to overlook. Suite yourself. I really don't care.

All I was doing was pointing out your errors. I was not bashing America.

To which I respond, Riiiiiiigggggghhhhhtttt.

Elsewhere you might want to address String's list, of which you pulled one item, ignoring the others. Or step back and realize that your technique seems removed of context or consequence. In other words, to use a crude metaphor, what fucking difference does it make if someone on a desert island invents something and it never sees the light of day. What matters is that the Wright Brothers "invented" airplane aviation and spurred the development of manned flight. The facts some fellow off in the weeds tooled around somewhere else in some kind of flying machine is totally irrelevant for anything other than trivia, gossip -- or anti-American bullshit...

Tiassa

11-23-09, 04:21 PM

To put it simply:

Nothing ever begins.

There is no first moment; no single word or place from which this or any other story springs.

The threads can always be traced back to some earlier tale, and to the tales that preceded that; though as the narrator's voice recedes the connections will seem to grow more tenuous, for each age will want the tale told as if it were of its own making.

Thus the pagan will be sanctified, the tragic become laughable; great lovers will stoop to sentiment, and demons dwindle to clockwork toys.

Nothing is fixed. In and out the shuttle goes, fact and fiction, mind and matter woven into patterns that may have only this in common: that hidden among them is a filigree that will, with time, become a world.

—Clive Barker, Weaveworld

There is no individual—no brilliant mind, no inventor, no pioneer—in human history whose accomplishments did not depend in some integral way on the whole of human history that preceded him.

Thus, we can argue Kitty Hawk, balloons, or ancient Chinese°, but the human endeavor is a contiguous and interdependent adventure.
____________________

Notes:

° ancient Chinese — Ray Bradbury's fictional "The Flying Machine" speculates about a Chinese emperor so concerned about the dangerous implications of a flying machine that he orders the death of its inventor.

Works Cited:

Barker, Clive. Weaveworld. New York: Poseidon, 1987.

phlogistician

11-23-09, 04:24 PM

Elsewhere you might want to address String's list,

Actually, I don't. I'd rather revisit Iceaura's list, or Countzero's, but not string's. Chap's got a boner for me, I'd far rather tease that out and slap it down when it presents itself.

of which you pulled one item, ignoring the others.

Oh indeed NOT. Please, for your comprehension, re read the thread, and see that selection isn't my sole forte old chum.

What matters is that the Wright Brothers "invented" airplane aviation and spurred the development of manned flight.

Oh dear, yet another brainwash victim. Go read some sources.

Tiassa

11-23-09, 04:47 PM

Oh dear, yet another brainwash victim. Go read some sources.

I wouldn't speak for Counte specifically in this case—or any other that I can presently conceive—but I would go so far as to point out that in dealing with Americans, you're often engaging a certain manner of convention. We still argue occasionally about whether or not it's fair to say that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America.

We can certainly understand the context of such a "discovery", but the literalists will always point out that other people had already discovered the place and were living there quite nicely on their own.

If you add to that tales of the Vikings making it to the continent, how do we treat Columbus' voyages and the cascade of results therefrom? How much of his "discovery" is undermined by the presence of Ogam scripts from Iberia and Ireland occurring in North America, or the curious "hinge Ogam" found in the twelfth-century Book of Ballymote that has only ever been identified in North America?

The revolution in modern flight starts with the Wright brothers, and while it might be, technically, improper to say they "discovered" flight, I would only note that you sound in that much like many of the people to whom I am sympathetic when they continue their argument that Columbus didn't discover anything.

With those, I agree that they are correct, but it's a futile argument. From the perspective of European history, Columbus discovered America, and as American history derives primarily from European, that's good enough for most of my countrymen.

You're going to run into the same sort of issue with flight.

Ellie

11-23-09, 04:57 PM

You're going to run into the same sort of issue with flight.

at some point you have to have some common sense. sure we can say that the first person who first saw a bird fly discovered flight but that is like something a child would think.

Tiassa

11-23-09, 05:11 PM

at some point you have to have some common sense. sure we can say that the first person who first saw a bird fly discovered flight but that is like something a child would think.

I would agree.

iceaura

11-23-09, 05:50 PM

Simply, synthesizer patel issued a challenge for Iceaura to list seven things that made America _superior_ and he failed to do that, listing things common to many nations. Patel issued no challenge to me in particular, first,

and the things I listed, in relevant response to a general challenge, were examples of American cultural achievement and superiority as requested, not necessarily uniqueness as not requested. There might be many nations with jazz bands, for example, but they pretty much suck compared with the upper levels of American jazz. The fact the jazz was invented in the US, as well, just underscores the assertion.

countezero

11-23-09, 07:27 PM

I wouldn't speak for Counte specifically in this case—or any other that I can presently conceive—but I would go so far as to point out that in dealing with Americans, you're often engaging a certain manner of convention. We still argue occasionally about whether or not it's fair to say that Christopher Columbus "discovered" America.

We can certainly understand the context of such a "discovery", but the literalists will always point out that other people had already discovered the place and were living there quite nicely on their own.

If you add to that tales of the Vikings making it to the continent, how do we treat Columbus' voyages and the cascade of results therefrom? How much of his "discovery" is undermined by the presence of Ogam scripts from Iberia and Ireland occurring in North America, or the curious "hinge Ogam" found in the twelfth-century Book of Ballymote that has only ever been identified in North America?

The revolution in modern flight starts with the Wright brothers, and while it might be, technically, improper to say they "discovered" flight, I would only note that you sound in that much like many of the people to whom I am sympathetic when they continue their argument that Columbus didn't discover anything.

With those, I agree that they are correct, but it's a futile argument. From the perspective of European history, Columbus discovered America, and as American history derives primarily from European, that's good enough for most of my countrymen.

You're going to run into the same sort of issue with flight.

Which is precisely why I put "invented" in quotations. But to return to my earlier argument, what is the point of the literalism you seem so intent on embracing?

To take your example, in all the terms that matter, Columbus "discovered" America. The fact others migrated or traveled there means not a whit to history -- European or otherwise.

And the motives of the individual here are clear, and seen by others beyond myself. He has ignored what he cannot refute in favor of nitpicking and playing spoiler over this or that -- all under the mistaken notion that he has some overarching point. He does not.

And to reiterate, my initial post had to do with the fact that I loathe Europeans who continually assert the superiority of their culture and pretend as if America is this backwards place that has given nothing of value to the world. Why that ethnocentrism is okay, but I am singled out and subtly accused of the same, is beyond me.

That is, I am making no claims about American cultural superiority. I hesitate doing so for several reasons, but chief among them, I think it's pretty damn hard to make apples-to-apples comparisons between cultures. Not to mention, how does one even begin to separate "America" for "Europe," when it's fairly obvious, to me, that American culture is an extension of European culture? Meanwhile, we have what I presume are Europeans in this thread calling America "backwards" and talking about us "catching up." Are they not proving my initial point about the sense of superiority?

Tiassa

11-23-09, 08:06 PM

But to return to my earlier argument, what is the point of the literalism you seem so intent on embracing?

It derives mostly from the argument that rose in the late '80s and early '90s when indigenous advocates began protesting the Columbus Day holiday; the backlash from that was nearly obscene insofar as they were accused of revisionism; but how is it revisionism to note Columbus' brutality when we have it in his own hand? It helps us understand history to recognize the vast impacts of his "discovery", and the literalism applied then was largely a response the elevation of Columbus to heroic status.

To take your example, in all the terms that matter, Columbus "discovered" America. The fact others migrated or traveled there means not a whit to history -- European or otherwise.

I would suggest it's important to the study of history insofar as we are intended to learn anything from it. The idea of the "empty continent", for instance; Americans have long learned a false version of history that understates the tremendous changes brought to the continent and its people by the European encounter.

The problem with these historical myths is that if you learn the wrong history, you learn the wrong lessons from history. This is part of how history comes to "repeat" itself so dramatically.

And the motives of the individual here are clear, and seen by others beyond myself. He has ignored what he cannot refute in favor of nitpicking and playing spoiler over this or that -- all under the mistaken notion that he has some overarching point. He does not.

I won't disagree with that or the remaining paragraphs in your post. This whole thread is a pissing contest, though, and unfortunately brought on by one of our own. Right now, it seems culturalist chest-beating is about all we can expect of it.

countezero

11-23-09, 08:32 PM

It derives mostly from the argument that rose in the late '80s and early '90s when indigenous advocates began protesting the Columbus Day holiday; the backlash from that was nearly obscene insofar as they were accused of revisionism; but how is it revisionism to note Columbus' brutality when we have it in his own hand? It helps us understand history to recognize the vast impacts of his "discovery", and the literalism applied then was largely a response the elevation of Columbus to heroic status.

Yes, I've seen that Sopranos episode, and I find the Native American arguments as ridiculous now as I did then. I mean, sure, only a fool would deny what actually happened, but to pretend Columbus is completely unheroic largely because he was a rather ordinary man of his time and because of what came after his life and because it's simply convenient to assign him as a scapegoat for hundreds of years of history sounds like little more than cheap victim-ology, a point Tony makes at the end of aforementioned episode.

Historians these days seem obsessed with pulling down the granite and making everyone a racist or a sexist -- and that's if they aren't trying to claim historical figures were actually all gay. It's all very chic in cause de jour kind of way, and at some point, perhaps already (see the re-revisionism of the Founders), I think that goes away and the study of real and substantive history returns. Columbus was a rotten guy who exploited natives and foreshadowed the conquering of a continent that inevitably would have been conquered? Sure, okay. But he also was a venture capitalist who had the guts to get in a ship and see what's out THERE. I can't help but respect that, especially given what passes for risk for today's venture capitalists...

I would suggest it's important to the study of history insofar as we are intended to learn anything from it.

Perhaps, but it seems like trivia. The intellectual equivalent of the guy who always one-up's the other guy's story. The Vikings et al came before Columbus, that's what, one interesting line in the ole Encyclopedia? A line that does not really change the relevance and importance of all the other lines? Forgive me if I am not impressed.

The idea of the "empty continent", for instance; Americans have long learned a false version of history that understates the tremendous changes brought to the continent and its people by the European encounter.

Funny, I was taught nothing but, to the point that the cruelty, greed and wantonness of the Native Americans was totally hidden from view. Read something like Mayflower and you realize nobody looked "good" back then, red or white, probably because they were all human and life was pretty damn violent and cruel. And yeah, America was pretty damn "empty," given any real calculation of the term "full" that we -- or they -- would understand, but I have no interest in arguing history with you, as I am willing to bet what ideology you use to interpret it all.

I won't disagree with that or the remaining paragraphs in your post. This whole thread is a pissing contest, though, and unfortunately brought on by one of our own. Right now, it seems culturalist chest-beating is about all we can expect of it.

Agreed. But you can't slag off somebody's culture and expect people to remain mum about it. I avoided conversations about American culture for long periods of time during my recent time abroad, but one night I just couldn't stomach the bullshit anymore and lashed out. I mean, it's one thing to try to put down some intellectual boundaries for the ugly Americans who crow about the greatness of the US of A, because those people are asking for it. However, it's quite another to intentionally goad people with inaccurate assessments of both your culture and theirs.