Israel & Palestine

[hypewaders]

Israel & Palestine



Reference Links

If you would like to contribute links for general reference here, please ask a moderator. PM Hypewaders (http://www.sciforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=8749)




Israel:

B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp):Israeli human rights group

Ha'aretz (http://www.haaretz.com/): left leaning newspaper chronicling Israeli POV

Zochrot (http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?lang=english) [Remembering]: To educate the Nakba deniers

ICAHD (http://www.icahd.org/eng/): Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

Machsom watch (http://www.machsomwatch.org/en): tracking abuse at the checkpoints

Shministim (http://www.whywerefuse.org/): Israeli teenagers who refuse to join the IDF

Ometz LeSarev (http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp) [Courage to Refuse]: IDF refuseniks

ibn Ezra (http://josephdana.com/): blog of Joseph Dana from Israel, he is also part of the Ta'ayush movement (http://www.taayush.org/) for Arab-Israeli partnership


Palestine:

Maan News Agency (http://www.maannews.net/eng/Default.aspx): the local news source for most Palestinians

The Palestine Chronicle (http://www.palestinechronicle.com/): leading online magazine/blog/newspaper for Palestinian issues

Palestine Remembered (http://www.palestineremembered.com/): Keeping alive the Palestinian nation

Bi'lin (http://www.bilin-village.org/english/): a Palestinian village, center of the nonviolent resistance

Raising Yousuf and Noor (http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/): a mother from Gaza [although technically she is American]


USA:

Tikun Olam (http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/) -essays on politics, culture and ideas about Israeli-Arab peace

Electronic Intifada (http://electronicintifada.net/) -news, commentary, analysis, reference materials from a Palestinian perspective

Jewish Voice for Peace (http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/) -news, commentary from peace activists inspired by Jewish tradition

Jews sans frontieres (http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/) -An Anti-Zionist blog browsing the media

Mondoweiss (http://mondoweiss.net/) -American foreign policy in the Middle East from a progressive Jewish perspective

Ta'anit Tzedek (http://www.fastforgaza.net/) - Jewish Fast For Gaza

Lawrence of Cyberia (http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/): American activist Diane Mason

Just World News (http://justworldnews.org/): by Helen Cobban

Israel: Balancing Demographics in the Jewish State (http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=321) -Migration Information Source


U.K.

"Chatham House" (http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/about/) (Royal Institute of International Affairs)

On The Palestinian Refugee Issue:


Past as Prelude? (http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/631/)
A Palestinian Perspective (http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/703/)
An Israeli Perspective (http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/632/)
A Regional Perspective (http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/739/)



Australia:

Antony Loewenstein (http://antonyloewenstein.com/) -Sydney-based journalist/author blog


Other:

The Goldstone Report (large .pdf) (http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/specialsession/9/docs/UNFFMGC_Report.pdf) -UN Human Rights Council, concerning the 2008-2009 Gaza War


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Some tired retired &or retarded threads about Israel/Palestine

News from Gaza (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=77263); News from Gaza 2 (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=89373); Foreign Opinions on Israel (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=77263); Is Israel in the Wrong? (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=92825); A Short History (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=90537); The 2 State Solution (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=90151); 1 State (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=80757); Does Israel Target Civilians? (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=89588); "Concentration Camp" (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=88957); Hummus War (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=86391); Shebaa Farms (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=83738); Right of Return (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=81209); American Assistance to Israel (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=79767); "Stolen Land"? (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=72799);


---------------------------------------------------
OP /Thread Notes:

Formerly titled The Promised Thread, the objectives here include accommodation of those who tire of the proliferation of threads on the subject, and better service and encouragement to those who have been disappointed in the curtailment and disruption of discussion and debate surrounding Israeli/Palestinian issues.


The format of the long promised/threatened thread will be intended to follow the same pattern as would any redirection of following discussions. I hope that the most recent Israel/Palestine events may be discussed briefly in a catch-all thread, until discussion (as is typically the case) turns to revisiting an underlying issue. At that point, I (or another so-inclined fellow moderator) may direct us all to a more appropriate thread in special, well-agreed cases.


In addition to your patience with the redirection of new threads and posts, I would ask members to scrupulously avoid even the appearance of hateful posts on this general subject. It's a blurry line between being provocative and contributing to the derailment of a discussion- so the success of this initiative will also require redoubled attention to avoiding offense, by giving that fuzzy line a wide berth.

I'm hoping to devote particular attention as a moderator to an area of discussion that is particularly prone to getting out of hand, and I'm hoping that with some attention to continuity of discussion, we'll create clearer paths to understanding for all sides. I have no desire to implement anything as a moderator that I would find unacceptable as a member. As a member, I am interested in seeing if less tangle of Israel/Palestine threads, along with more respectful debate, may offer something more stimulating and worthwhile here.

Salaam and Shalom.

-hypewaders

[hypewaders]

OK, I'll start. It's the same game as always, people. We're just trying to talk about Palestine/Israel in fewer threads, like one big happy family that really needs to talk:

Palestine News Network: Injunction in case of Palestinian workers fired inside Israeli boundaries for not entering army (http://english.pnn.ps/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7026&Itemid=99999999)


Tel Aviv Regional Labor Court issued a temporary injunction preventing the firing of Arab railway inspectors by the Israel Railway Company on the grounds that they have not performed military service.

This is an example of why the Israeli system is unsustainable, and also why there is hope for Israelis.

[hypewaders]

Haaretz: Israel, U.S. working to limit damage of Goldstone report (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117314.html)
This is a report that should worry every country fighting terror," said Jonathan Peled, spokesman of the Israeli Embassy in Washington. "We need to make sure this report does not endanger the U.S. and other countries."

Ayalon urged American Jewish leaders to take on the report. Most major Jewish groups issued statements condemning Goldstone's findings and calling on the international community to look at the Israeli military's inquiry into its Gaza operation. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee called the report "deeply flawed" and said that Goldstone's investigation was rigged.

Key supporters of Israel in Congress also lashed out at the council. New York Democrat Gary Ackerman, chair of the House Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia, fumed that the report's authors lived in a "self-righteous fantasyland."

Some Israeli officials went after Goldstone, who is Jewish, personally. Israeli Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz denounced him as an "anti-Semite."

The spinmeisters are not being very original, but I must say they have been very effective. I pay attention to news more than most USAmericans, but I only discovered that this report had been released 2 weeks back, by reading a post today on Sciforums.

[spidergoat]

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2366756&postcount=86

I tend to think the report is more or less accurate. What does Israel expect if they didn't participate? Did they refuse to cooperate in order to be able to deny the report?

[S.A.M.]

Did they refuse to cooperate in order to be able to deny the report?

They had no choice really. Think of all the stuff that came out of Israel after the war. The army rabbis, the tee shirts, the troops testimonies, the planning of the war from the beginning of the ceasefire, the statements about the blockade.

Imagine what the report would have looked like with the Israeli testimonies added to it.

Then what could they have said in response?


Outgoing statement of the UN General Assembly President:


My greatest frustration this year has been the Palestine situation," he told the 192-nation assembly in his final address on 14 September before handing over the one-year presidency to Libyan diplomat Ali Trek...

My chief consultant on humanitarian affairs, Dr. Kevin Cahill, was sent to Gaza from 17 to 22 February to prepare a report on the humanitarian situation in Gaza immediately after the aggression. Dr. Cahill’s report was issued on Wednesday 19 August, on the occasion of World Humanitarian Day commemorating the sacrifices of United Nations staff in conflict zones; it had originally been intended for release at a Special Session on Gaza, but that did not take place for the reasons mentioned.

I find disgraceful the passivity and apparent indifference of some highly influential members of the Security Council to the fact that the blockade of Gaza has continued uninterrupted for two years, in flagrant violation of international law and of the resolution of the Security Council itself, causing immense damage and suffering to the Palestinian population of Gaza. This situation threatens to become even more serious if immediate measures are not taken, now that winter is approaching. Now is the time to demonstrate, with actions and not simply words, a true commitment to the concept of the Responsibility to Protect."

Some background on the man:


Fr Miguel is not your usual time-serving career diplomat. In 1961 was ordained a priest in the Catholic church. In 1962, he obtained a Master of Science degree from Columbia University’s School of Journalism (Pulitzer Institute). He served for over a decade as Nicaragua’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, during which he spearheaded his Government’s claim in the International Court of Justice against the United States for supporting military and paramilitary actions against his country. The Court ruled in Nicaragua’s favour.

Who will hold the most moral leaders in the world accountable for their actions?

link (http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/opinion/?id=34425)


The world watches hypocrisy in action.


Project Communicate or How to get/keep Americans into the pro-Israel camp:


When Benjamin Netanyahu visited Los Angeles in May as part of The Jewish Federation’s Jews in Crisis campaign, a group of 25 entertainment industry creative people and executives from across the political spectrum held a breakfast meeting with the former prime minister. Since that time, Project Communicate has identified college students as its first priority, commissioning prominent political consultant Frank Luntz to report on the issues, arguments and ideas that can effect pro-Israel attitudes on campus.

Whoever is making the case for Israel — organization or individual, student or teacher, Jew or non-Jew — convincing Americans of any position requires the right words, the right language and the right framing. At the behest of Project Communicate, the American Jewish Committee and other organizations, Luntz went beyond college students, examining a range of U.S. attitudes toward the situation and the language that works to persuade Americans.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/los_angeles/article/the_new_middle_east_battleground_college_campuses_ 20020823/




One of their undertakings:
Hasbara Handbook: Defending Israel on Campus (http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf)

Another one:
The Israel Project's 2009 Global Language Dictionary (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8303274/The-Israel-Projects-2009-Global-Language-Dictionary)



http://www.theisraelproject.org/

[pjdude1219]

just skimming through the Israel projects 2009 global language dictionary shows just how in my opinion morally bankrupt the pro Israel side is.

[S.A.M.]

How do you think commercial advertising and public relations works?

We used to study the importance of framing the argument in our undergrad class in public communications

This is Sales 101.

[pjdude1219]

How do you think commercial advertising and public relations works?

We used to study the importance of framing the argument in our undergrad class in public communications

This is Sales 101.

their preying on people to lazy to get real info. Though this conclusively proves in my opinion that one so called nuetral was pro israeli whn they make the same demand pro israeli groups do. that we should ignore the palestinians legal rights as refugees because it would be inconveinent for Israel. Yes it sucks for the Israelis that would have to be removed for the palestinians who made the choice to return to their lands rather than accept compensation( rights the jewish refugees have as well) but Israel created the problem when they violated international law putting their concerns ahead of those they abused is just evil to me.

[S.A.M.]

Israel created the problem when they violated international law

Thats the naive idealist view.

In the real world no one really cares

As Frank Lutz said: And remember, it’s not what you say that counts. It’s what people hear

[pjdude1219]

Thats the naive idealist view. How is a confirmable fact idealist?


In the real world no one really cares than i shall endevor to make them

[spidergoat]

The world watches hypocrisy in action.

At least Hamas isn't hypocritical about their immorality. Israel may have done some violent things in reaction to being bombed every day for 8 years, but I'm still not anti-Israel. Just like the My Lai Massacre didn't make me anti-American.

[S.A.M.]

At least Hamas isn't hypocritical about their immorality. Israel may have done some violent things in reaction to being bombed every day for 8 years, but I'm still not anti-Israel. Just like the My Lai Massacre didn't make me anti-American.

Yeah, you're a good German. My countries, right or wrong.

[spidergoat]

One can object to specific actions without condemning the entire enterprise. No one in this conflict sets a good moral example.

[S.A.M.]

Indeed, they are all equal, victim and oppressor.

[spidergoat]

They are both victims and oppressors at various times. The situation is more complex than you have ever been willing to admit.

[S.A.M.]

yeah, I read the Goldstone report too

Indeed, its a very "complex" situation.

Reads exactly like the ICRC report in 1942, did you notice that?

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/6AYG86

[Gustav]

why dont you two fuckers go chat on msn or something?

[spidergoat]

Why don't you amputate your fingers, maggot?

[S.A.M.]

Interesting changes in Haaretz talkbacks:

I have been noting an interesting change in Haaretz talkbacks; not sure if it is because of selective moderation by Haaretz [most of my comments do not get published, even innocent ones] or a real sea change in the comments themselves. More and more Americans Jewish and non-Jewish, are giving their opinions in articles related to the US.

e.g. one article Poll: 56% of American Jews think U.S. should strike Iran (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1117995.html) which has probably been published a few hours ago has, so far, the following comments


Title: What !? Wasn`t Iraq enough for you people?
Name: Another American
City: State:
Do you really want another world war?
Title: poll of dubious value
Name: American Jew
City: State: USA-Northern California
A meaningless poll. As an American Jew, I am well aware, as most American Jews are, what are the personal consequence in our communities of openly expressing an alternative opinion to the AIPAC "line". Slander, threats, community shunning of self and family, all are meant to silence any alternative American-Jewish "voice" from that which we are bombarded with from the likes of AIPAC and Foxman`s ADL. M community, I am proud to say,is making some progress to open debate and dialogue,something that I was raised to believe was the very essence of Jewish intellectual tradition..
Title: U.S. striking Iran
Name: H
City: State: Europe
Extremely good timing for this survey by The American Jewish Commitee to appear right now - and wow look at the results! American Jews becoming as warmongering as the Israelis - very convincing, indeed!If Goldstone is accused of finding what he wants, then there are others who could be, as well.......
Really getting some good help on Iran now, diverting attention from uncomfortable issues in Israel. Same old tactics! Never-ending!
Title: Face
Name: jjvanka
City: State: NL
When Obama spoke out against an Iran attack, most US Jews supported him. Have they tucked away their US passports and identify themselves with the Israeli one?
Title: so few?
Name: Chaim Ben Kahan
City: Efrat State: Israel
They must be polling Left wing Jews because I think the percentage is far higher in favor of attacking Iran. I would say its closer to %85.

Title: Was this poll made in AIPAC building?
Name: David
City: NYC State:

Title: 56% approve bombing Iran
Name: hank curtis
City: buenos aires State: argentina
If the US were to bomb Iran, it would lead to the end of US and World support of Israel and from there the end of Israel.

Don`t American Jews and Israelis undrstand that every day every thing Israel does to the Palestininas and other Muslims costs them support? It is only a question of time until
world pressure on Israel will make the continuity of the country impossible.
Title: Strike Iran
Name: Darwish
City: Tampa State: FL
Are those the same Jews that voted for Bush and his gang to strike Iraq? Our economy is more important than what a few American Radical Jews want....
Title: 56% of american jews think........
Name: herbert
City: ny State: ny
what about the rest of us 245000000 who are non-jews, what is their opinion?
Title: 56%of American Jews
Name: dr.Joji Cherian
City: Aluva State: India
56% of American Jews think US should strike Iran. Obama SHOULD strike Iran.Afterall 56%percent of Jews means 1% of American population.

Any regular reader of Haaretz will recognise that these kinds of comments are really really unusual in the paper.

[S.A.M.]

Abbas rolls over and plays dead for his puppet masters:



The Palestinian Authority on Thursday decided to drop its draft resolution condemning Israel's conduct during the Gaza Strip offensive, in effect deferring its adoption of the Goldstone's Commission report accusing both sides of war crimes.

The source added that the decision appears to be based on pressure from the Obama administration, exerted by way of U.S. representatives in Geneva, as well as through contacts between Washington and Ramallah.

The Obama administration has told the Palestinians that a renewal of the peace process must come before any diplomatic initiatives based on the Goldstone report, or any other initiatives that could stifle efforts to renew Israel-PA negotiations.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has stated in recent days that efforts to use the Goldstone report to advance anti-Israel measures in the Human Rights Council or the International Tribunal in The Hague will deal a death blow to the peace process.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1118235.html

Nothing like accountability for war crimes to destroy a "peace" process

This must be the "change we can believe in".

[S.A.M.]

Some resources on the IP conflict [hype and the other mods could add to these as they see fit or move it to the OP]

From Palestinian groups:

Maan News Agency (http://www.maannews.net/eng/Default.aspx): the local news source for most Palestinians

The Palestine Chronicle (http://www.palestinechronicle.com/): leading online magazine/blog/newspaper for Palestinian issues

Palestine Remembered (http://www.palestineremembered.com/): Keeping alive the Palestinian nation

Bi'lin (http://www.bilin-village.org/english/): a Palestinian village, center of the nonviolent resistance

Raising Yousuf and Noor (http://a-mother-from-gaza.blogspot.com/): a mother from Gaza [although technically she is American]


From Israeli groups:

B'Tselem (http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp):Israeli human rights group

Ha'aretz (http://www.haaretz.com/): left leaning newspaper chronicling Israeli POV

Zochrot (http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?lang=english) [Remembering]: To educate the Nakba deniers

ICAHD (http://www.icahd.org/eng/): Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions

Machsom watch (http://www.machsomwatch.org/en): tracking abuse at the checkpoints

Shministim (http://www.whywerefuse.org/): Israeli teenagers who refuse to join the IDF

Ometz LeSarev (http://www.seruv.org.il/english/default.asp) [Courage to Refuse]: IDF refuseniks

ibn Ezra (http://josephdana.com/): blog of Joseph Dana from Israel, he is also part of the Ta'ayush movement (http://www.taayush.org/) for Arab-Israeli partnership


from American groups:

Tikun Olam (http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/)

Electronic Intifada (http://electronicintifada.net/)

Jewish Voice for Peace (http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/)

Jews sans frontieres (http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/)

Mondoweiss (http://mondoweiss.net/)

Ta'anit Tzedek (http://www.fastforgaza.net/) - Jewish Fast For Gaza

Lawrence of Cyberia (http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/): American activist Diane Mason

Just World News (http://justworldnews.org/): by Helen Cobban


from Australian groups:

Antony Loewenstein (http://antonyloewenstein.com/)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Moderator Note:

Thanks, that's very helpful Sam.

IP Conflict References can now be accessed at the Top of this thread. (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=96231) If anyone would like to augment these references with further links, please let me know.

-hypewaders (http://www.sciforums.com/private.php?do=newpm&u=8749)

[S.A.M.]

Gazans paint stripes on donkey so children can still go to the zoo:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/3056/stripeddonkey.png

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/10/gazans-paint-stripes-on-donkeys-so-kids-can-still-go-to-zoo.html

[Musichascolors]

Moderator Note- Thread Merged. Original title: Why so many people think most Israeli Jews come from Europe/are white?

The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahim, whoa re from the million Jwes who were expelled from the middle east in the 40s.

Out of 5,393,000 Jews in Israel

3,100,000 are Mizrahi

725,000 are Sephardi

2,817,000 are Ashkenazi


Yet over and over and over again one hears that Israelis are "European" or "White" etc etc. I guess this is an example of the success of the rhetoric by the surrounding countries, but it has no basis in reality.

[spidergoat]

Source?

[nirakar]

Musichascolors source does not seem to be internet or at least a little quick googling with his information did not turn up any candidates for his source.

Still his/her numbers are in line with what Wikipedia has give or take a few hundred thousand. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel

Unrelated to Musichascolors stats the Wikipedia article never said whether the 400,00+ Israeli Citizens living in the occupied territories are part of the "The State of Israel had population of approximately 7,465,500 inhabitants as of September 2009." I assume the Israeli citizens living in the occupied territories are counted as "inhabitants" while Israeli citizens living in the USA would not be inhabitants of Israel.

I assume that mixed Mizrahim and Ashkenazi couples have already had 100,00+ children together.

Mizrahim may be equal to Ashkenazi in numbers but are they also equal in political clout?

[Musichascolors]

Go to the wiki pages for Mizrahi Jews, Sepahrdic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews.

Mizrahi are the vast majority.

I expect the Anti-Israel posters will change from lying about Israelis being Europeans, to lying and saying most Israelis are discriminated against. Which will be laughable, but they most likely will try to change the subject to that.

[pjdude1219]

The majority of Israeli Jews are Mizrahim, whoa re from the million Jwes who were expelled from the middle east in the 40s.

Out of 5,636,000 Jews in Israel

3,100,000 are Mizrahi

725,000 are Sephardi

2,817,000 are Ashkenazi


Yet over and over and over again one hears that Israelis are "European" or "White" etc etc. I guess this is an example of the success of the rhetoric by the surrounding countries, but it has no basis in reality.

so a total of roughly 3.5 million are european as compared to 3.1 not european is proof that most Israelis aren't european descent? (note to music has colors the Iberian pennisula is part of europe)

[pjdude1219]

Go to the wiki pages for Mizrahi Jews, Sepahrdic Jews and Ashkenazi Jews.

Mizrahi are the vast majority.

I expect the Anti-Israel posters will change from lying about Israelis being Europeans, to lying and saying most Israelis are discriminated against. Which will be laughable, but they most likely will try to change the subject to that.

what's laughable is you own proof that most Israelis aren't european shows the oppisite. Sepahrdi and Ashkenazi are both European.

[Musichascolors]

what's laughable is you own proof that most Israelis aren't european shows the oppisite. Sepahrdi and Ashkenazi are both European.

You should also learn to read the topic title.

Sephardi includes Jews from North Africa.

Everyone knows how many times "anti Israelis" go off about the Jews in Israel being "white Europeans" and of course its BS. But they keep saying it.

[pjdude1219]

You should also learn to read the topic title.

Sephardi includes Jews from North Africa.

Everyone knows how many times "anti Israelis" go off about the Jews in Israel being "white Europeans" and of course its BS. But they keep saying it.

I know. and much of the north african jewry came from the Iberian with the christian efforts against them. Its not BS its true as your own fucking data shows but your to biased to admit it. I read the topic title its bullshit

[Musichascolors]

I know. and much of the north african jewry came from the Iberian with the christian efforts against them. Its not BS its true as your own fucking data shows but your to biased to admit it. I read the topic title its bullshit

Lol, so you are saying they're still white Europeans because they came to Morocco in the 7th century?

It's ridiculous.

Most Sephardim aren't white, just letting you know.

[pjdude1219]

Lol, so you are saying they're still white Europeans because they came to Morocco in the 7th century?

It's ridiculous.

if they didn't intergrate like they did in spain yes

[Musichascolors]

if they didn't intergrate like they did in spain yes

Classic, they're not white anyway.

Hey, guess what everyone, Jews who originated in the Middle East, were in Spain for a short period of time, and then went to Morrocco for over a thousand years, are EUROPEAN. And white... somehow (but they're not) (/sarcasm)

Amazing the logic hoops you'll twist yourself through.

Not only that, but you'll ignore the topic title, and argue a different point, just so long as you can argue SOMETHING.

It's so predictable.

[hypewaders]

Musichascolors: "Why so many people think most Israeli Jews come from Europe/are white?"

It's not about their hue, it's about their due.

[pjdude1219]

Classic, they're not white anyway. the people of the Iberian are white.


Hey, guess what everyone, Jews who originated in the Middle East, were in Spain for a short period of time, and then went to Morrocco for over a thousand years, are EUROPEAN. And white... somehow (but they're not) (/sarcasm) Funny last time i checked the year isn't 2500. The jews forced out were forced out in the late 1400's. but than again little things like facts clearly aren't going to sway you.


Amazing the logic hoops you'll twist yourself through. no hoops or twisting just common sense.


Not only that, but you'll ignore the topic title, and argue a different point, just so long as you can argue SOMETHING. So answering the question by refuting your wrong conclusion is ignoring the topic at hand. Your twisting of reality, logic and reason is awe inspiring

[Musichascolors]

Musichascolors: "Why so many people think most Israeli Jews come from Europe/are white?"

It's not about their hue, it's about their due.

And that explains people lying and saying they're white Europeans how?

[pjdude1219]

Musichascolors: "Why so many people think most Israeli Jews come from Europe/are white?"

It's not about their hue, it's about their due.

due?

[pjdude1219]

And that explains people lying and saying they're white Europeans how?

So saying the truth is lying now? most Israelis are white and european culturally if not from their

[hypewaders]

pj: "due?"

due- something owed or deserved.

[pjdude1219]

pj: "due?"

due- something owed or deserved.

I know what due means i just don't get what you mean by its not their hue its their due

[Musichascolors]

most Israelis are white and european culturally

Lol, false, either a lie or a falsity, but no basis in reality whatsoever.

[pjdude1219]

Lol, false, either a lie or a falsity, but no basis in reality whatsoever.

Your delusional and talking out of your ass. You now on my list of people to read for humor. Just because you don't like reality doesn't make it not real. no matter how you want to cut it Israel and the jews are a western(ie european influenced) country

[Musichascolors]

Your delusional and talking out of your ass. You now on my list of people to read for humor. Just because you don't like reality doesn't make it not real. no matter how you want to cut it Israel and the jews are a western(ie european influenced) country

Oh there is no doubt that Israel is a Western influenced country. That's a fact, just as it's a fact that most Israelis are brown.

P.S. I go to a Sephardic synagogue and most of my family lives in Israel. I've spent months there. The majority of Israelis are brown.

[S.A.M.]

Lol, false, either a lie or a falsity, but no basis in reality whatsoever.

80% of all Jews [in the world] are of Ashkenazi origin and are ethnically "white"

Getting tanned in the Middle Eastern sun does not make them less European in origin.

However, that is irrelevant here, the base problem although compounded by the ethnocentrism of Judaism, is that of human rights.

[pjdude1219]

Oh there is no doubt that Israel is a Western influenced country. That's a fact, just as it's a fact that most Israelis are brown. being tan doesn't make someone brown. they are dark white people.


P.S. I go to a Sephardic synagogue and most of my family lives in Israel. I've spent months there. The majority of Israelis are brown.

I believe that as much as i believe everything else you have ranted. Your an extremist with an axe to grind.

[Musichascolors]

80% of all Jews [in the world] are of Ashkenazi origin and are ethnically "white"

Most Israeli Jews aren't Ashkenazi.

You can "believe" what you like. Facts are so much better :)


being tan doesn't make someone brown. they are dark white people.

Yup, the 3,000,000 + middle eastern Jews in Israel are just tan. Hey, so are the Iraqis!

The stupidity is delightful. Just admit that you were wrong.

[S.A.M.]

Lol, most Israeli Jews aren't Ashkenazi.

How do you tell? What identifies an Ashkenazi from a Mizrahi or a Sephardim?

[pjdude1219]

Just TRY backing that lie up.
Why should I your first post backs it up. by the way thank you for providing the info to refute your argument. and its not a lie most Israeli jews are Sepahrdic and Ashkenazi. the formor coming from spain and portugual the other trace to northern france and germany. these too groups comprise 400000 more people than the third jewish group. Now 20 years down the road you will be right do to eastern people and eastern influenced people tending to have a higher birth rate but we are still here in the present.

[pjdude1219]

During the Jewish Diasporah (leaving Israel) Jews fled to various places, the ones who remained in the Middle East (and are now the majority in Israel, are Mizrahi. The ones who went to the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa are Sephardi, the ones who went to Europe are Ashkenazi. All have slightly different customs.

Humorous how you don't know this and yet vehemently argue a factually wrong point, repeatedly.

Humourous you don't know that the Iberian is part of Europe.

[Musichascolors]

I explained the whole north africa thing to you.

And your explanation, that Middle easterners who spent a couple of hundred years in Spain before spending 1500 in North Africa are somehow "European" is hilarious.

Most Israelis are Mizrahi, and Sephardim aren't white (and neither are most Israelis)

You've never been to Israel have you?

[S.A.M.]

And your explanation, that Middle easterners who spent a couple of hundred years in Spain before spending 1500 in North Africa are somehow "European" is hilarious.

So how are you calculating ethnicity?


Most Israelis are Mizrahi, and Sephardim aren't white (and neither are most Israelis)

You've never been to Israel have you?

What percent?


During the Jewish Diasporah (leaving Israel) Jews fled to various places, the ones who remained in the Middle East (and are now the majority in Israel, are Mizrahi. The ones who went to the Iberian Peninsula and North Africa are Sephardi, the ones who went to Europe are Ashkenazi. All have slightly different customs.

Humorous how you don't know this and yet vehemently argue a factually wrong point, repeatedly.

Then why does genetics put Jews in the same category as Turks and Kurds?

Why do the Ashkenazim come up as a separate ethnic group?




Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכֲּנָזִים‎, pronounced [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנָז, Yehudei Ashkenaz, "the Jews of Ashkenaz"), are the Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities of the Rhineland valley (in the west of Germany) and northern France.

Ashkenaz is also a Japhetic patriarch in the Table of Nations (Genesis 10). Thus, Ashkenazim or Ashkenazi Jews are literally "German Jews."

[pjdude1219]

interesting article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people

[pjdude1219]

And your explanation, that Middle easterners who spent a couple of hundred years in Spain before spending 1500 in North Africa are somehow "European" is hilarious. so now were in the year 2900? they spent more than a couple hundred years in the Iberian. for someone calling people stupid when they don't agree with you you have a remarkablely poor grasp of the history of the movements of the people involved


Most Israelis are Mizrahi, yes
and Sephardim aren't white (and neither are most Israelis) yes they are and also by some definitions of white people so are the Mizrahi.


You've never been to Israel have you?

Irrelevant but no I haven't. nor will i ever. I refuse to go to a country whose very existence is a violatation of international law. If Isrealis are brown why than do they look most like dark hued white people like the persians and the people of the balkans?

[Musichascolors]

What percent?

57%

5,393,000 Jews in Israel

3,100,000 are Mizrahi

[S.A.M.]

57%

5,393,000 Jews in Israel

3,100,000 are Mizrahi

Source?

[Musichascolors]

Wikipedia articles on Jews and Mizrahim. Already went through this :)

[pjdude1219]

Source?

he listed numbers earlier that showed none mizarhi jews in Israel to umber roughly 3.5 million

[S.A.M.]

he listed numbers earlier that showed none mizarhi jews in Israel to umber roughly 3.5 million

Ah I did not see that, I will check the original source in the wiki.
edit: I don't see it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews

[Musichascolors]

he listed numbers earlier that showed none mizarhi jews in Israel to umber roughly 3.5 million

However much of Sephardi Judaism comes from North Africa and the Middle East as well.

[pjdude1219]

However much of Sephardi Judaism comes from North Africa and the Middle East as well.

um by definition a middle eastern jew can't be sephardi.

[Musichascolors]

um by definition a middle eastern jew can't be sephardi.

No.

www.americansephardifederation.org/PDF/articles/TermSephardicJew.pdf

[pjdude1219]

At least Hamas isn't hypocritical about their immorality. Israel may have done some violent things in reaction to being bombed every day for 8 years, but I'm still not anti-Israel. Just like the My Lai Massacre didn't make me anti-American.

wouldn't have been bombed had they just complied with international law. The Israelis bitching about terrorism is like someone bitching after being mauled by a grizzly after beating it for an hour.

[pjdude1219]

The just and fair solution is simple but no one will go for it because most people seem to believe fair is treating the powerful better than the weak rather than following the law. Allow all palestinians who want to return to their land to do so and remove the Israelis who were allowed to settle there. Slowly turn the land over to palestinian governence while adding jewish voices into it. Have the countries responsible for the debacle pay for the modernization of infrastructure to get everything up to par. Give the palestinians who do not wish to return compensation equal to the current value of the land while doing the same for the decendents of the jewish refugees while acknowledging the jewish refugee problem was created in response to the palestinian. demilitartize the country and remove weapons from it and have a peace keeping force(probably filled with forces from europe and the far east for best results) for a period of time to let the people mesh into one palestinian people.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

However much of Sephardi Judaism comes from North Africa and the Middle East as well.

You're getting caught up in a strawman argument. What difference does it make what 'race' we consider Israeli's? I mean if you point out to Sam of PJ that there are black Israeli jews would it make a difference to them? Would it make a difference that they also serve in the IDF at checkpoints etc.? The question is of land distribution, human rights and a certain tribalism on both sides but none of this has anything to do with 'color'. Its not south africa.

[pjdude1219]

You're getting caught up in a strawman argument. No he is making one.
What difference does it make what 'race' we consider Israeli's? I mean if you point out to Sam of PJ that there are black Israeli jews would it make a difference to them? So your attaicking me and Sam for something he brought up?
Would it make a difference that they also serve in the IDF at checkpoints etc.? It makes a big deifference to me that they would help abuse people.
The question is of land distribution, human rights and a certain tribalism on both sides but none of this has anything to do with 'color'. Its not south africa.

true and yet here you are defending the person who tried to make it about color and attacking those that didn't.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

For Pete's sake PJ stop being so emotional. I am not 'attacking' anyone of anything. I simply stated that to get caught up in questions of race concerning Israelis is pointless as it doesn't change the dynamics one bit. The fact that someone with power is black or white is irrelevant when you are the one who feels somehow disenfranchised. I don't think he was making it about 'color' I think he is responding to the notion that Israel is an exclusively 'white' society which it is not, note he does admit that it is 'western' and western influenced but this also is besides the point. The problem with these discussions is that everyone takes the red herring road and the issue is never addressed but then again I doubt this is really a place for addressing these points as it always reaches a point of futility. Think of the black and white way its being discussed when there are so many grey's, well anyway in reality there is always much grey.

Now you can put back on your little boxing gloves and get back into your corner:rolleyes:

[pjdude1219]

For Pete's sake PJ stop being so emotional. than don't make bullshit implications about me
I am not 'attacking' anyone of anything. whatever you say
I simply stated that to get caught up in questions of race concerning Israelis is pointless as it doesn't change the dynamics one bit. which is why you implied me and sam made it an issue
I don't think he was making it about 'color' I think he is responding to the notion that Israel is an exclusively 'white' society which it is not, except no one thinks that we think its a mostly white society like the states.

Now you can put back on your little boxing gloves and get back into your corner:rolleyes:

don't want to get hit don't start swinging.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

You all seem to back yourself into a corner when discussing this issue.

Make bullshit implications about you? Stop being a cry baby as its no way to confront a crisis never mind discuss one. You're so defensive on this issue you don't know who's attacking you and who is simply making a point.

[pjdude1219]

You all seem to back yourself into a corner when discussing this issue.

Make bullshit implications about you? Stop being a cry baby as its no way to confront a crisis never mind discuss one. You're so defensive on this issue you don't know who's attacking you and who is simply making a point.


I mean if you point out to Sam of PJ that there are black Israeli jews would it make a difference to them? this is not making a point. its not true and implying a mindless hatred which i do not have. also you don't have a point. Your defending an extremist with an axe to grind. I'm sorry you have a problem with my reaction but i am tired of having my position on this topic misrepresented.

I am not being a crybaby. I am merely asking you to not make untrue implications and pointing out your defense/comment of musichascolors was ridiculus.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

this is not making a point. its not true and implying a mindless hatred which i do not have. also you don't have a point. Your defending an extremist with an axe to grind. I'm sorry you have a problem with my reaction but i am tired of having my position on this topic misrepresented.

I am not being a crybaby. I am merely asking you to not make untrue implications and pointing out your defense/comment of musichascolors was ridiculus.

First of all I would love for you to go back and find where I accuse you of 'blind hatred', second I did make a point not that it was directed at you. I don't know much about musichascolors but I doubt he is any more extreme than you are on this topic. In other words you both in a sense play from end-corners so the discussion never goes anywhere...much like the Israeli-palestinian situation.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Hello Hype,

Here are some download publications from Chathamhouse.org on this issue (not that I think anyone will actually take the time to read them):

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/631/

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/703/

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/632/

http://www.chathamhouse.org.uk/publications/papers/view/-/id/739/

Mod Note: Thanks Lucy. Excellent background & required reading, with a Test: As posts become noticeably better-informed, we'll know who among us have taken the time to get up to speed. -hype

[pjdude1219]

First of all I would love for you to go back and find where I accuse you of 'blind hatred', i said it was implied.
second I did make a point not that it was directed at you.Sorry you don't get to talk about others and not have them reply. and i have yet to see a point other than music was getting involved with me and sam on a strwman with the implication that we were making an argument we weren't.
I don't know much about musichascolors but I doubt he is any more extreme than you are on this topic. really because I don't have half my post equal trolling/flaming simply because someone had the aducity to disagree with me.
In other words you both in a sense play from end-corners so the discussion never goes anywhere...much like the Israeli-palestinian situation.

I'm willing to move on aspects if my beliefs. But on the matter of legal rights I won't budge.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Implied? The pot you smoke is too strong, I suggest you cut back as you have turned into a paranoid. You are so far off in whatever it is you 'think' is happening in this thread that you don't even know what the discussion is anymore, hell you don't even know who's on your side:cool: Just keep punching at air PJ as Lachlan once famously said "Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."

You speak of 'legal rights' but where there is no one to enforce them then there are no rights, its not a nice fact but its a fact nonetheless. We all know what is legal and illegal based on international law but in this situation among others there is no one to enforce these rights so its a mute point really to speak of them except as a reminder that they exist in 'theory', at this point one must talk about what is do-able and not what should be or is supposed to be. When I say you back yourself into a corner I mean your perspective is stuck on one side, just like the other is stuck on theirs, from both places the only thing you can accomplish is a proper fight but not insight nor a widening perspective nor problem solving and solution building. Its all hot air.

[S.A.M.]

How to recognise a pro-Israeli/pro-Zionist or Standard Hasbara Talking Points

The following propositions will be employed in a steadily escalating manner:

1. We rock

examples: Israel want peace; Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East; the desert blooms; kibutz; Israelis invented antibiotics, the wheel, the E minor scale; thanks to the occupation Palestinians no longer live in caves; Israel liberates Arab women; Israel has the most moral army in the world, etc.

2. They suck

examples: the legal system of Saudi Arabia, gay rights in Iran, slave trade in the Sudan, Mohammad Atta, the burqa, Palestinians dancing after 9/11, Arafat's facial hair, etc.

3. You suck

examples:Jew-hater, Arab-lover, anti-Semite, you're a pinko, a commie, a dreamer, a naive, a self-hater, you have issues, your mother worked for the Nazis, Prince Bandar buys you cookies, you forgot you were responsible for the holocaust, etc.

4. Everything sucks

examples: War, genocide, racism, oppression are everywhere. From the Roma in Italy to the Native-Americans in the U.S., the weak are victimized. Why pick on Israel? It's the way of the world. Look! Right is only in question between equals in power; the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Ethics, schmethics. Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Eat, drink! Carpe diem! The Palestinians would throw us into the sea if they could. Ha ha!

source (http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/07/how-to-make-case-for-israel-and-win.html)

More gibberish from the clueless:




Jews in Cape Town expressed deep concern Tuesday that a visit to their city by three representatives of the Shministim, conscientious objectors to IDF service, could fuel anti-Israel sentiment and even anti-Semitism.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1254861885263&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

The truth is antisemitic

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The truth is antisemitic

The 'truth' is 'antisemitic'? Interesting choice of words Sam. A very revealing perspective.:rolleyes:

Welcome to the never get anywhere discussion.

[pjdude1219]

Implied? The pot you smoke is too strong, I suggest you cut back as you have turned into a paranoid. You are so far off in whatever it is you 'think' is happening in this thread that you don't even know what the discussion is anymore, hell you don't even know who's on your side:cool: Just keep punching at air PJ as Lachlan once famously said "Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."

You speak of 'legal rights' but where there is no one to enforce them then there are no rights, its not a nice fact but its a fact nonetheless. We all know what is legal and illegal based on international law but in this situation among others there is no one to enforce these rights so its a mute point really to speak of them except as a reminder that they exist in 'theory', at this point one must talk about what is do-able and not what should be or is supposed to be. When I say you back yourself into a corner I mean your perspective is stuck on one side, just like the other is stuck on theirs, from both places the only thing you can accomplish is a proper fight but not insight nor a widening perspective nor problem solving and solution building. Its all hot air.
now I get your just trying to cover your ass for arguing against doing the right thing. Their are people who can enforce these rights and the law the meerly need to show the spine to stand up for them. Cowardice isn't the answer. Instead of whining that no one is enforce rights, which by the way aren't theory, why don't you argue that those than have the power and obligation to should enforce them. Just because the right thing is difficult doesn't mean you don't do it.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

now I get your just trying to cover your ass for arguing against doing the right thing

Wrong again. I didn't 'argue' against anything. I simply pointed out that race isn't a factor in this issue unless you want to take the train off the tracks. Talk of 'doing the right thing' is not the same thing as implementing a decent workable solution, the UN and activists both jewish and palestinian, american or not are always 'talking' about doing the right thing, unfortunately implementing a plan is more difficult than 'talk' and there are many obstacles in the way one of them being the way we discuss the situation to begin with.

So who is it that you think is going to enforce these rights? Which nation or which institution? We know the Americans won't do it and we know the UN cannot do it. So who is going to do it?

Did you read ANY of those downloads I linked?

By the way I don't need to 'cover tracks'. If I didn't think the Palestinians weren't in deep shit and Israeli's the heros I would simply say so, the problem is that the reality is complex without a 'black and white' solution though I understand that black and white thinking is useful as you then don't have to deal with the complex reality of solution building.

[pjdude1219]

The 'truth' is 'antisemitic'? Interesting choice of words Sam. A very revealing perspective.:rolleyes:

Welcome to the never get anywhere discussion.
there is no getting anywhere when people like you just go we should throw the legit framework out the window because its hard to enforce

[pjdude1219]

Wrong again. I didn't 'argue' against anything. I simply pointed out that race isn't a factor in this issue unless you want to take the train off the tracks. Talk of 'doing the right thing' is not the same thing as implementing a decent workable solution, the UN and activists both jewish and palestinian, american or not are always 'talking' about doing the right thing, unfortunately implementing a plan is more difficult than 'talk' and there are many obstacles in the way one of them the way we discuss the situation to begin with.

Did you read ANY of those downloads I linked?

Workable workable its the same old shit code for leting Israel keep what it gained from violating the law. Fuck workable I want legal.



and of course the UN and the USA aren't doing anything because we have people like you going they aren't doing anything so we shouldn't try and get them to. Civil rights state side didn't happen because the government just decided to it took people standing up and demanding they do something.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

there is no getting anywhere when people like you just go we should throw the legit framework out the window because its hard to enforce

Where do I say we should 'throw it out the window'? I'm talking about political reality not wishful thinking. The 'rules' and 'standards' are there. When the international community is able to change human rights situation in Myanmar or Tibet or Congo or Sudan let me know and then maybe there will be a plan for Israel and the Palestinians.

What do you suggest PJ? What are you doing outside of 'talk' to aid progress in the situation in the middle-east?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Workable workable its the same old shit code for leting Israel keep what it gained from violating the law. Fuck workable I want legal.



and of course the UN and the USA aren't doing anything because we have people like you going they aren't doing anything so we shouldn't try and get them to. Civil rights state side didn't happen because the government just decided to it took people standing up and demanding they do something.

First of all don't assume to know what I do or do not do in my private life, if you don't like people making assumptions about you then you should refrain from making them about others. So how do you get 'legal' PJ? What is the solution? But we are not talking about the civil rights movement in the states or where ever. The people of Myanmar have been actively fighting for their civil rights for years now to no avail, we are talking about state institutions. How do you fight a power state?

[pjdude1219]

Where do I say we should 'throw it out the window'? If your not demanding it being enforced your throwing it out the window.
I'm talking about political reality not wishful thinking. Your talking about giving into apathy. Your talking about not trying because its hard or not likely. Your talking about giving into the evil and letting them control the debate.
When the international community is able to change human rights situation in Myanmar or Tibet or Congo or Sudan let me know and then maybe there will be a plan for Israel and the Palestinians. the problem with all of those is the same and the same thing I am railing against you. No one wants to pay the real costs to fix it.


What do you suggest PJ? go in there and drag those bastards before the ICC.
What are you doing outside of 'talk' to aid progress in the situation in the middle-east?

I send weekly letter to congress and i have sent letters to the UN.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Whom do you demand it from?

I am not talking about apathy I am talking about a discussion that deals with the stale mate reality and power brokerage that has taken place on this issue.

Who will pay the 'real' costs for Myanmar? The neighboring countries? The US? How? Sanctions that are ineffective? A bombing campaign that would de-stabilize the country and the region? What?

Who is going to drag those bastards before the ICC? They couldn't 'drag' the leader of Sudan into the ICC so how will they do so with a nation that has the worlds 4th largest military power?

Letters are good. I think you should keep writing letters but you should take it one step further and get active. Join a grass-roots organization that is actively working on this issue.

[pjdude1219]

First of all don't assume to know what I do or do not do in my private life, if you don't like people making assumptions about you then you should refrain from making them about others. I'm making no assumptions I'm just going off what your saying right here
So how do you get 'legal' PJ? you put the boots on the ground to enforce the law
What is the solution? anything from political ostrazization to war. it depends.
But we are not talking about the civil rights movement in the states or where ever. It's called an analogy
The people of Myanmar have been actively fighting for their civil rights for years now to no avail, we are talking about state institutions. How do you fight a power state?patience. considering most cases in south east asia and east asia the historical fights for independence went on for hundreds of years before success. Yes they need more international support but they are going at it the right way. These things rarely get resolved quickly.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

WHO will put the boots on the ground and enforce the law? The US has no incentive to do it and the UN cannot. So who is left to do it? Israel was already attacked by their neighbors when they didn't even have half the strength they have now and won. So who will do this?

Politically ostracizing Israel doesn't mean much when they have wealth, strength and power. War? Well again I ask you who will wage war on Israel if the US will not. What would the outcome of a war against the worlds 4th largest military machine look like? What would be the outcome? Are you sure of what the cost will be if there is a military solution? Do you really believe there would be any palestinians left to inherit the land if there was a full on military solution?

No they don't get resolved quickly. So why do you expect the situation in the middle east to be solved quickly, seeing that it is only 50 years old?

I have to go now but will check in tomorrow.

[WillNever]

being tan doesn't make someone brown. they are dark white people.



I believe that as much as i believe everything else you have ranted. Your an extremist with an axe to grind.

So you oppose the Jews' presence in Israel based on their skin color...?

*aghast*

[pjdude1219]

So you oppose the Jews' presence in Israel based on their skin color...?

*aghast*

I don't oppose their presence in palestine at all. I oppose a jewish state founded on the disenfranchisement and disspossion of the resident population

[fedr808]

Meh,

I figure Israel and Palestine to be yin and yang, they both know that no matter how hard they push the other will push just as hard, that's why they are both apealing to the UN.

The big mistake their making is the idea that the UN isnt in a similar state.

[WillNever]

I don't oppose their presence in palestine at all. I oppose a jewish state founded on the disenfranchisement and disspossion of the resident population

The people of Israel have made power politics the religion of that state, and they have made themselves the gods of that religion.

Wouldn't it just be easier for the Palestinians to simply bow down before their white gods, at this point..?

[pjdude1219]

The people of Israel have made power politics the religion of that state, and they have made themselves the gods of that religion.

Wouldn't it just be easier for the Palestinians to simply bow down before their white gods, at this point..?

:confused:

[WillNever]

What part do you not understand..?

[pjdude1219]

What part do you not understand..?

how its a reply to my post

[Musichascolors]

The truth is antisemitic

So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.

[S.A.M.]

So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.

Just use the numbers to cut down on the rhetoric

e.g.

hasbara #3

or if you must

3. You suck

Reference: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2383751&postcount=74

Or stop to think a bit and apply this logic:


So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.

to South African Jews saying that Jewish teenagers who oppose the killing and dehumanisation and occupation of Palestinians will cause antisemitism.

[Musichascolors]

You're changing what you said, I take it then that you were being sarcastic before?

[fedr808]

So in the same post where you excoriate Jews from mentioning when anti-zionists are antisemites, you admit to being an antisemitic bigot.

Pathetic.

music, the first and most important lesson you need to learn and sadly enough took me 1800 posts to finally figure out is that nobody in sciforums is such a bigot to the point of Rascism.

Calling SAM a bigot is as true as calling someone a conservative vs liberal, or democrat vs. Republican, in such a respect most people are a bigot in some sort of fashion.

I used to be Bigoted extremely towards the Jewish support and now when I post I consider myself if not at the middle, that much closer to being in the middle because I consider what I am saying and how it will be reacted to by the opposite person.

Music, anyone whom is bigoted to the point of rascism has been banned, SAM over what? 60k posts is still here, so it is a fair assumption she is not rascist.

[fedr808]

WHO will put the boots on the ground and enforce the law? The US has no incentive to do it and the UN cannot. So who is left to do it? Israel was already attacked by their neighbors when they didn't even have half the strength they have now and won. So who will do this?

Politically ostracizing Israel doesn't mean much when they have wealth, strength and power. War? Well again I ask you who will wage war on Israel if the US will not. What would the outcome of a war against the worlds 4th largest military machine look like? What would be the outcome? Are you sure of what the cost will be if there is a military solution? Do you really believe there would be any palestinians left to inherit the land if there was a full on military solution?

No they don't get resolved quickly. So why do you expect the situation in the middle east to be solved quickly, seeing that it is only 50 years old?

I have to go now but will check in tomorrow.

I can definitely see your point and I see it is very valid. The fact is that an invasion of Israel, would quite possibly be more bloody than the landings at Normandy. The Israelis are absolutely indisputably the world power in desert and urban combat. Attempting an invasion of Israel would also be dificult in the air and tank combat, because Israeli tanks are the best for a defensive war, in a desert setting, they can easily take an abrams one on one and come out on top.

I believe that Israel and Palestine are a manifestation of a problem we are embattling with today, new and old, left and right, peace and war, east and west.

Until we as mature nations and world powers can get OUR sh*t together, how can we expect Israel and Palestine to?

We are constantly chastizing Israel and Palestine for failing to solve a problem WE havent even solved. Thats like yelling at a child for getting a C on a test where you would have gotten an F

[S.A.M.]

I can definitely see your point and I see it is very valid. The fact is that an invasion of Israel, would quite possibly be more bloody than the landings at Normandy. The Israelis are absolutely indisputably the world power in desert and urban combat. Attempting an invasion of Israel would also be dificult in the air and tank combat, because Israeli tanks are the best for a defensive war, in a desert setting, they can easily take an abrams one on one and come out on top.

I believe that Israel and Palestine are a manifestation of a problem we are embattling with today, new and old, left and right, peace and war, east and west.

Until we as mature nations and world powers can get OUR sh*t together, how can we expect Israel and Palestine to?

We are constantly chastizing Israel and Palestine for failing to solve a problem WE havent even solved. Thats like yelling at a child for getting a C on a test where you would have gotten an F

Indeed. Welcome to universalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_universalism). :)

[fedr808]

Indeed. Welcome to universalism. :)

I call it hypocratism

[S.A.M.]

I call it hypocratism

Even when a rabbi says it? :p

That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn

— Talmud, Shabbat 31a, the "Great Principle"

PS I assume you mean hypocrisy? ;)

[fedr808]

PS I assume you mean hypocrisy? ;)

No, if i get remembered for something it is making up a word that is spelled similarly and measn the exact same thing as another word.

ie:

Flammable: Something that burns easily.
Inflammable: Something that burns easily.

Yes, they literaly DO mean the exact same thing.

[S.A.M.]

Except of course, there is no word called hypocratism

[fedr808]

Except of course, there is no word called hypocratism

That's why I made it up. :p

[pjdude1219]

I can definitely see your point and I see it is very valid. The fact is that an invasion of Israel, would quite possibly be more bloody than the landings at Normandy. The Israelis are absolutely indisputably the world power in desert and urban combat. I dispute that. beating people weaker than you is easy.
Attempting an invasion of Israel would also be dificult in the air and tank combat, because Israeli tanks are the best for a defensive war, in a desert setting, they can easily take an abrams one on one and come out on top. The merkav 4(spelling?) really isn't that much better than the abrams plus their are far more abrams availible than merkav 4's. Would it be bloodier than most wars yes because of more equal opponents but I think in the end Israel would in fact fall easily. They have next to no expierence fighting an equal opponent and none at all for drawn out conflicts.


I believe that Israel and Palestine are a manifestation of a problem we are embattling with today, new and old, left and right, peace and war, east and west. the problem there is the same problem in much of the former colonial world. the Western powers thought they knew better and put people over other people that had no business being in that position and throwing people together that had been at war for gods no how long.


Until we as mature nations and world powers can get OUR sh*t together, how can we expect Israel and Palestine to? I really don't think that this matters. Palestine is never going to give up her rights and quite frankly the Israelis are to drunk on the the power they have over the pals to change.


We are constantly chastizing Israel and Palestine for failing to solve a problem WE havent even solved. Thats like yelling at a child for getting a C on a test where you would have gotten an F

Untrue the solution is staring at us in the face. No one has the balls to implement it. We created the problem with our arrogance we should fix it with our power.

[CheskiChips]

I dispute that. beating people weaker than you is easy. The merkav 4(spelling?) really isn't that much better than the abrams plus their are far more abrams availible than merkav 4's. Would it be bloodier than most wars yes because of more equal opponents but I think in the end Israel would in fact fall easily. They have next to no expierence fighting an equal opponent and none at all for drawn out conflicts.

the problem there is the same problem in much of the former colonial world. the Western powers thought they knew better and put people over other people that had no business being in that position and throwing people together that had been at war for gods no how long.

I really don't think that this matters. Palestine is never going to give up her rights and quite frankly the Israelis are to drunk on the the power they have over the pals to change.



Untrue the solution is staring at us in the face. No one has the balls to implement it. We created the problem with our arrogance we should fix it with our power.

:(.

[WillNever]

Palestine is never going to give up her rights

Yes they will, once the older generation of Palestinians dies off and the new ones born under Israel's dominance have no justification of ever losing anything -- because they weren't even alive to have lost. :cool:

[pjdude1219]

Yes they will, once the older generation of Palestinians dies off and the new ones born under Israel's dominance have no justification of ever losing anything -- because they weren't even alive to have lost. :cool:

But they did lose. and the younger ones have still worked for getting their rights

[pjdude1219]

:(.

forgive me for not feeling sorry for people who willfully ignored the ramifications of their actions and ignored any semblence of moral action.

[S.A.M.]

I don't think war with Israel is the correct response. They are paranoid enough as it is.


Secret unit to monitor "Israeli Arabs" (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120635.html)

The police have recently started operating an undercover unit among Israeli citizens. Some two months ago, Police Commissioner David Cohen said the force had "no intelligence infrastructure to deal with the Arab community."

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I dispute that. beating people weaker than you is easy. Would it be bloodier than most wars yes because of more equal opponents but I think in the end Israel would in fact fall easily. They have next to no expierence fighting an equal opponent and none at all for drawn out conflicts.


Untrue the solution is staring at us in the face. No one has the balls to implement it. We created the problem with our arrogance we should fix it with our power.

Well again the problem is which equal power would do this? What would be their incentive? What would be their reasoning? What would be the outcome? Its not that no one has the balls its that no one would be willing to spend the life and resources. You still believe that most wars are fought over what is right and wrong, this has been true on a number of occasions but untrue in most. Its safe to say that the majority of the UN security council nations are not for showing a heavy hand with Israel or at least not at this time, the political stratosphere and power dynamics would have to change dramatically for this to change.

Side note: Don't forget that Vietnam rid themselves of three world powers (china, France and US) though they were smaller and less resourceful, they were not 'equal' with those who would control them and yet they won. Why do you think they won? More than any other country in SE Asia the Vietnamese have a unity that is unequalled in the region, every man woman and child gave themselves to the effort. In the face of opposition you were not fighting a military machine you were fighting each individual in the nation. This also happens to be a strength Israeli's have long had even if they fight among themselves. I say this because you come across as seeing war as an 'easy' option and it isn't, they're unpredictable and should be the last option. Just look at Afghanistan, the US are not fighting an 'equal' enemy and yet they are having a tough time and its taking a long time and still we have no idea of what the outcome will be, these people also have a history of fighting world powers and winning.

[pjdude1219]

Well again the problem is which equal power would do this? What would be their incentive? What would be their reasoning? What would be the outcome? irrelevant for my purposes. When it comes time to argue for someone to do so than you can ask these questions. Right now I am merely arguing for the moral framework.
Its not that no one has the balls its that no one would be willing to spend the life and resources. that knida of what having the balls to do it is. Willing to pay the costs to do it.
You still believe that most wars are fought over what is right and wrong, this has been true on a number of occasions but untrue in most.for someone who got cranky that I was making "assumptions" about their private life(I wasn't) you seem to enjoy making assumptions about my beliefs and views. I think most wars were started over wants and not liking the legit cost to gain them.
Its safe to say that the majority of the UN security council nations are not for showing a heavy hand with Israel or at least not at this time, the political stratosphere and power dynamics would have to change dramatically for this to change. and guess what, I know that. My purposes are to create public support to change that. Contrary to your childish assumptions about me and attempts to paint me as naive,immature, and childish I know all to well the current geopolitical situtation. Things are already begining to shift in the way for my ideas to come into play. I am merely now trying to push the shift further along.



Side note: Don't forget that Vietnam rid themselves of three world powers (china, France and US) though they were smaller and less resourceful, they were not 'equal' with those who would control them and yet they won. Why do you think they won? More than any other country in SE Asia the Vietnamese have a unity that is unequalled in the region, every man woman and child gave themselves to the effort. first off the palestinians are united in the fight for their freedom the aren't united on the sratergy to use. also vietnam has land that helps defense and they weren't handicapped in such a way that allowed their foes to have complete control over their movements. to compare palestine and vietnam is hopelessly useless and naive.
In the face of opposition you were not fighting a military machine you were fighting each individual in the nation. This also happens to be a strength Israeli's have long had even if they fight among themselves.actually Israelis blind following seems to be slipping in recent years.
I say this because you come across as seeing war as an 'easy' option and it isn't, they're unpredictable and should be the last option. I believe war is the last resort its messy and leads to unneeded deaths but when you have a country like Israel that has rejected every overture of peace, every olive branch, and every dove sent to them and continues to push people of their land with their military you have reached the last resort
Just look at Afghanistan, the US are not fighting an 'equal' enemy and yet they are having a tough time and its taking a long time and still we have no idea of what the outcome will be, these people also have a history of fighting world powers and winning.Afghanistan also favors the defenders in its lands palestine doesn't.

[CheskiChips]

forgive me for not feeling sorry for people who willfully ignored the ramifications of their actions and ignored any semblence of moral action.

Then why don't you feel sorry for me? You've insisted I am a biggoted moron on several occassions - if I am as ignorant as you say, you should be ashamed of yourself.

[pjdude1219]

I don't think war with Israel is the correct response. They are paranoid enough as it is.

if they aren't willing to use diplomacy to try and achieve real peace i say cry havic and let slip the dogs of war.

[pjdude1219]

Then why don't you feel sorry for me? You've insisted I am a biggoted moron on several occassions - if I am as ignorant as you say, you should be ashamed of yourself.

i differentiate between willfull and unwillfull ignorance

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

irrelevant for my purposes. When it comes time to argue for someone to do so than you can ask these questions. Right now I am merely arguing for the moral framework. that knida of what having the balls to do it is. Willing to pay the costs to do it. for someone who got cranky that I was making "assumptions" about their private life(I wasn't) you seem to enjoy making assumptions about my beliefs and views. I think most wars were started over wants and not liking the legit cost to gain them. and guess what, I know that. My purposes are to create public support to change that. Contrary to your childish assumptions about me and attempts to paint me as naive,immature, and childish I know all to well the current geopolitical situtation. Things are already begining to shift in the way for my ideas to come into play. I am merely now trying to push the shift further along.


first off the palestinians are united in the fight for their freedom the aren't united on the sratergy to use. also vietnam has land that helps defense and they weren't handicapped in such a way that allowed their foes to have complete control over their movements. to compare palestine and vietnam is hopelessly useless and naive. actually Israelis blind following seems to be slipping in recent years. I believe war is the last resort its messy and leads to unneeded deaths but when you have a country like Israel that has rejected every overture of peace, every olive branch, and every dove sent to them and continues to push people of their land with their military you have reached the last resort Afghanistan also favors the defenders in its lands palestine doesn't.

But you don't need to argue the moral framework. You know if the UN were a democratic institution then the general assembly would have veto power over the security council decisions but it is not so they do not. Public polls show that most people WORLDWIDE believe that the palestinians have a right to a homeland.

What are the 'shifts' you speak of? Can you give me some examples of these shifts that are political and not simply a matter of public sentiment?

[pjdude1219]

But you don't need to argue the moral framework. You know if the UN were a democratic institution then the general assembly would have veto power over the security council decisions but it is not so they do not. Public polls show that most people WORLDWIDE believe that the palestinians have a right to a homeland.

What are the 'shifts' you speak of? Can you give me some examples of these shifts that are political and not simply a matter of public sentiment?

Europe is begining to actually put political pressure on Israel. The UK(one of those responsible for the palestinians plight) has begun to cut back on their pro Israel positions and reduce aid.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

if they aren't willing to use diplomacy to try and achieve real peace i say cry havic and let slip the dogs of war.

Its statements like that which make you come across as 'naive', wise men don't talk about warfare as if it were a line from a Die Hard movie. Have you ever thought of going to Gaza and joining the resistance movement? Or maybe the US military?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Europe is begining to actually put political pressure on Israel. The UK(one of those responsible for the palestinians plight) has begun to cut back on their pro Israel positions and reduce aid.

Well Europe has always been more pro-palestinian than the US so that isn't anything new. Israel doesn't need UK support it needs US support. What the UK has done by refusing to sell what turns out to be 'spare parts' is a public gesture that has little impact on Israeli capabilities. If the UK really wanted to hurt Israel they would turn on the US in the security council. This gesture that they have made can easily be overturned without even the public having any idea it has happened.

[pjdude1219]

Well Europe has always been more pro-palestinian than the US so that isn't anything new. Israel doesn't need UK support it needs US support. What the UK has done by refusing to sell what turns out to be 'spare parts' is a public gesture that has little impact on Israeli capabilities. If the UK really wanted to hurt Israel they would turn on the US in the security council. This gesture that they have made can easily be overturned without even the public having any idea it has happened.

The Us miltiary aid isn't Israel most important. You could argue germany's is(L44 120mm smoothbore cannon is the primary armament of Israeli tanks). we are just in the begining of the swing. it will become more pronouced as time goes by

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The Us miltiary aid isn't Israel most important. You could argue germany's is(L44 120mm smoothbore cannon is the primary armament of Israeli tanks). we are just in the begining of the swing. it will become more pronouced as time goes by

The post didn't make any sense to me, particularly this part 'The US military aid isn't Israel most important'. Could you please re-phrase? You will need to show more for your case that there is a 'swing' that is indeed new and not merely a meaningless 'gesture'.

[pjdude1219]

Its statements like that which make you come across as 'naive', wise men don't talk about warfare as if it were a line from a Die Hard movie. not a big fan of the bard are you.
Have you ever thought of going to Gaza and joining the resistance movement? Do you really think I can't see through something that shallow? yeah and than have you decry me as a terrorist. though I have thought of going to palestine to help.
Or maybe the US military?so what i can be sent to ride around with the IDF as they abuse the palestinians?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Post 119 wasn't understood so could you please read post # 120 as I need you to re-phrase.

You say that to join an active resistance is hollow but you advocate full blown war? Why would 'I' de-cry you? You seem to have me mistaken for someone else.

You are so filled with righteous indignation that it clouds you. You don't even realize that I am pro-palestinian, always have been, but in a discussion about Israel and the Palestinians it is better to put emotion aside and deal with facts or it just clouds the issue.

[pjdude1219]

The post didn't make any sense to me, particularly this part 'The US military aid isn't Israel most important'. Could you please re-phrase? what didn't make sense?
You will need to show more for your case that there is a 'swing' that is indeed new and not merely a meaningless 'gesture'.what you decry as meaningless gestures are the first signs of the swing. I call reducing military aid from a country that has put boots on the ground in Israeli wars more than a meaningless gesture.

[pjdude1219]

Post 119 wasn't understood.

You say that to join an active resistance is hollow but you advocate full blown war?

I understood your post clearly. It was an obvious attempt to try and get me into saying something you could use to paint me as pro terrorism.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I understood your post clearly. It was an obvious attempt to try and get me into saying something you could use to paint me as pro terrorism.

I wasn't trying to paint you as anything, again you are being paranoid. I am simply saying that I find it strange that one who advocates warfare would find it fruitless to join a resistance movement. I am not a pacifist. I do believe that there are times to fight, also I know a lot of men who have been fighting in real warfare for a long time and continue to do so, but they are not as cavalier as to suggest war as a solution, I guess it has something to do with experience.

So how about re-phrasing post 119 as it wasn't understood?

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

what didn't make sense? what you decry as meaningless gestures are the first signs of the swing. I call reducing military aid from a country that has put boots on the ground in Israeli wars more than a meaningless gesture.

Well its meaningless like taking candy away a chocolate bar from a child who lives in a candy store. What you call a 'swing' is not a swing at all but a public gesture that can be easily overturned. A 'swing' is something significant where the majority of forces turns away from or against something and this has not happened. I mean I hope you realize that the UK helped Israel get their nuclear arsenals and continues to offer other types of military aid.

[pjdude1219]

I wasn't trying to paint you as anything, again you are being paranoid. which is why you limited it to where terrorism is for the most part the resitance?
I am simply saying that I find it strange that one who advocates warfare would find it fruitless to join a resistance movement. I don't advocate warfare. I believe in using peaceful solutions. but having looked at the Israeli/palestine conflict i think its hopelessly naive to think that their is going to be a peaceful diplomatic solution to it given the history.
I am not a pacifist. I do believe that there are times to fight, also I know a lot of men who have been fighting in real warfare for a long time but they are not as cavalier as to suggest war as a solution, I guess it has something to do with experience.

If you think i am being cavalier about war your not understanding my view. I suggest your read my posts. I'm not saying use war because its the best answer but because every other method has been tried and failed. if the political battleground changes in Israel and their willing to have real negoitations I say full on diplomacy blitz but as it stands it will require war to have peace in the area. Don't mistake my belief that war is going to happen and the only option left to try as me wanting war.

So how about re-phrasing post 119 as it wasn't understood? I understood it your just to cowardly to admit what you trying to do. Their was no reason to limit to gaza but you specificlly choose to limit it where restiance means terrorismm

[pjdude1219]

Well its meaningless like taking candy away a chocolate bar from a child who lives in a candy store. What you call a 'swing' is not a swing at all but a public gesture that can be easily overturned. A 'swing' is something significant where the majority of forces turns away from or against something and this has not happened. I mean I hope you realize that the UK helped Israel get their nuclear arsenals and continues to offer other types of military aid.

If you remember what I said it was starting to swing not that it was swinging. Its still in the begining and could be reversed hence why I believe so strongly in keeping it going that direction.

[S.A.M.]

Europe is begining to actually put political pressure on Israel. The UK(one of those responsible for the palestinians plight) has begun to cut back on their pro Israel positions and reduce aid.

I think the most important political shift re: the Palestinian issue is that it has sharply divided the developing world from the developed and is fast becoming the issue by which western power will be challenged on all fronts. It will also become the issue over which the diaspora will split with Israel and the Lobby will break down in the US.

One of the interesting shifts I have been noticing is how united the Arab street is getting over the issue and how intimately the issue of treatment of the Palestinians has become a surrogate for the American effort to "conciliate" with the Arab world. In an era where the Arabs are better informed about current global politics than the Americans [thanks to al Jazeera (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200910/al-jazeera) in no small part] and there is a growing consensus in the developing world on the issue of hostility to American intervention, it will become an issue of strategy for Americans, for whom Arab oil and money is more economically relevant, than the haemorrhage of global credibility that is Israel.

Hence now you see Iran, Venezuela and China cooperating with each other, organisations like the Shanghai Cooperative, the Latin Americans coming together with SATO, the Turks questioning whether being in the EU is really necessary [they just banned Israel from an air show this week, that special relationship is also fraying], Jordan has made a stand on Jerusalem, the Arab League has warned Israel that they don't have unlimited time to get their act together. Libya has used its rotating presidency on the UN General Assembly to bring in the 15 member council to keep the focus on the Goldstone report and waylay US attempts to get rid of it.

And you have Avigdor Leiberman and Benjamin Netanyahu, undermining Obama, while Israelis perform on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze5dbxPO8cU), showing off what they are really made of.

We live in interesting times.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

No I asked you why you didn't join a palestinian resistance group or the US military. Most of us already know the difference between a terrorist organization and a resistance movement.


There may be a peaceful solution to Israel but we don't as yet know what the future will be. A peaceful solution is possible as there are more and more Israeli's who believe that they cannot survive without a solution or settlement to the issue. This situation is not in the interest in Israel's security and more and more Israeli's understand this and as usual the best solutions to any problem is an internal one.

I'm not interested in your paranoid angst so let's just keep it out of the discussion. I mean you are trying to enlighten people right? In any case its boring to discuss how something is being discussed and we have been doing that for far too long on these boards, lets just try and deal with discussion and you can paint yourself out of it if you like. On a personal note I am not interested in you, I am not dealing with 'you'. I am dealing with the subject at hand and carrying ideas to their most logical conclusion or the exploration of those ideas. If I ask you to explain something its only because I am trying to better understand where you are coming from on the issue.

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

If you remember what I said it was starting to swing not that it was swinging. Its still in the begining and could be reversed hence why I believe so strongly in keeping it going that direction.

I also hope there is a shift in the right direction but it has to be a strong one not a 'show' or 'finger wagging'.

Anyway I have got to go. By the way Sam is right that a unifying of certain alienated developing countries working together is an interesting development, more so than say some token gesture on the part of the UK

[S.A.M.]

If you remember what I said it was starting to swing not that it was swinging. Its still in the begining and could be reversed hence why I believe so strongly in keeping it going that direction.

There is a great deal of difference between perception and reality. The perception is often a mask. The notion that Americans overwhelmingly support Israel is created by the media. Its the 9 out of 10 Zionists who debate every US issue in Congress that do it and like everywhere else represent the lobbies that purchase them. Its a mistake to think that the American people are very different from the rest of the world. Or that American policy represents the opinion of the American people.


A new WorldPublicOpinion.org poll of 18 countries finds that in 14 of them people mostly say their government should not take sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just three countries favor taking the Palestinian side (Egypt, Iran, and Turkey) and one is divided (India). No country favors taking Israel's side, including the United States, where 71 percent favor taking neither side.

Yet not only is the view of "even-handedness" completely unrepresented among mainstream political figures in the U.S., it's deemed political death to go anywhere near expressing that view. Back in 2003, then-presidential-candidate Howard Dean expressed the exact position favored by an overwhelming majority of Americans, yet triggered an intense and even ugly controversy by doing so:

Dean's Israel troubles began at a Sept. 3 campaign event in Santa Fe, N.M. When it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, he said that day, "It's not our place to take sides." Then, on Sept. 9, he told the Washington Post that America should be "evenhanded" in its approach to the region.

That's all Dean said. It's a view held by more than 70% of Americans. It ought to be completely uncontroversial -- if anything, it ought to be that view that is deemed a political piety. But what happened? This, according to an excellent account of that "controversy" in Salon by Michelle Goldberg:

The media and the Democratic establishment reacted as if Dean had called Yasser Arafat a man of peace. On Sept. 10, 34 Democratic members of Congress, including House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, wrote Dean an open letter. "American foreign policy has been -- and must continue to be -- based on unequivocal support for Israel's right to exist and to be free from terror . . ." they wrote. "It is unacceptable for the U.S. to be 'evenhanded' on these fundamental issues . . . This is not a time to be sending mixed messages; on the contrary, in these difficult times we must reaffirm our unyielding commitment to Israel's survival and raise our voices against all forms of terrorism and incitement."

The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz reported that Dean had badly damaged his own campaign. "Sources in the Jewish community say that Dean has wrecked his chances of getting significant contributions from Jews . . ." the paper wrote. "Many believe Dean's statement will drive more Jews toward Lieberman and Kerry, enabling Kerry to take the lead again."

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/07/20/israel/index.html

While there is an issue with how Palestinians are represented in the US, remember that too is a media issue and those Americans who travel to the West Bank or Gaza are quickly divested of their illusions.

[pjdude1219]

No I asked you why you didn't join a palestinian resistance group or the US military. Most of us already know the difference between a terrorist organization and a resistance movement. and most of us understand what limiting to an area where terrorism is the norm implies.



There may be a peaceful solution to Israel but we don't as yet know what the future will be. A peaceful solution is possible as there are more and more Israeli's who believe that they cannot survive without a solution or settlement to the issue. This situation is not in the interest in Israel's security and more and more Israeli's understand this and as usual the best solutions to any problem is an internal one. Which is why the Israeli governments have been getting more radical.


I'm not interested in your paranoid angst so let's just keep it out of the discussion. God your whiny. if you don't like people going after your asserations about them don't make them. and there is nothing paranoid about my reaction. just because you don't want to take responsibility for what your saying don't lash out at me.

[S.A.M.]

Stepping back in history

A NYT article from 1919:


"Protest To Wilson Against Zionist State - Representative Jews Ask Him To Present It To The Peace Conference" (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=2&res=9E02E7DF1E39E13ABC4D53DFB5668382609EDE)



http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff115/deadringer_01/TWWW.jpg

"as a future form of government for Palestine will undoubtedly be considered by the approaching peace conference, we, the undersigned citizens of the United States, unite in this statement, setting forth our objection to the organization of a Jewish state in Palestine as proposed by the Zionist societies in this country and Europe and to the segregation of the Jews as a nationalistic unit in any country.

At the outset, we wish to indicate our entire sympathy with the efforts of Zionists which aim to secure for Jews at present living in lands of oppression a refuge in Palestine or elsewhere, where they may freely develop their capabilities and carry on their activities as free citizens.

But we raise our voices in warning and protest against the demand of the Zionists for the reorganization of the Jews as a national unit, to whom, now or in the future, territorial sovereignty in Palestine shall be committed. This demand not only misinterprets the trend in the history of the Jews, who ceased to be a nation 2000 years ago, but involves the limitation and possible annulment of the larger claims of Jews for full citizenship and human rights in all lands in which those rights are not yet secure. For the very reason that the new era upon which the world is entering aims to establish government everywhere on principles of true democracy, we reject the Zionistic project of a "national home for the Jewish people in Palestine."

Zionism arose as a result of intolerable conditions...in Russia and Romania. But it is evident that for the Jewish population of these countries...Palestine can become no homeland...it's limited area can offer no solution. The Jewish question...can be settled only within those countries by the grant of full rights of citizenship to Jews

We are all the more opposed to the Zionists, because they, themselves, distinctly repudiate the solely ameliorative program. They demand and hail with delight the "Balfour declaration" to establish...i.e, a home not merely for Jews living in countries in which they are oppressed, but for Jews universally. No Jew, wherever he may live, can consider himself free from the implication of such a grant. The willingness of Jews interested in the welfare of their [religious] brethren...is no acceptance of the Zionist project to segregate Jews as a political unit and to re-institute a section of such a political unit in Palestine or elsewhere.

At the present juncture in the world's affairs...we rejoice in the avowed proposal of the peace congress to put into practical application the fundamental principles of democracy. That principle which asserts equal rights for all citizens of a state, irrespective of creed or ethnic descent, should be applied in such a manner as to exclude segregation of any kind, be it nationalistic or other.

Such segregation musts inevitably create differences among the sections of the population of a country. Any such plan of segregation is necessarily reactionary in its tendency, undemocratic in spirit and totally contrary to the practices of free government, especially as they are exemplified in our
Own country. We therefore strongly urge the abandonment of such a basis for the reorganization of any state.

We object to the political segregation also of those who might succeed in establishing themselves in Palestine. The proposition involves dangers which, it is manifest, have not had the serious consideration of those who are so zealous in its advocacy... To subject the Jews to the possible recurrence of such bitter and sanguinary conflicts which would be inevitable, would be a crime against the triumphs of their whole past history and against the lofty and world-embracing visions of their great prophets and leaders.

Though these grave difficulties be met, still we protest against the political segregation of the Jews, and the re-establishment in Palestine of a distinctly Jewish state as utterly opposed to the principles of democracy which it is the avowed purpose of the world's peace conference to establish.

Whether the Jews be regarded as a "race" or as a "religion" it is contrary to the democratic principles for which the world war was waged to found a nation on either or both of these bases. The glory (of the most advanced democracies in the world) lies in the freedom of conscience and worship, in the liberty of thought and custom which binds the followers of many faiths and varied civilizations in the common bonds of political union. A Jewish state involves fundamental limitations as to race and religion, else the term "Jewish" means nothing. To unite church and state, in any form, as under the old Jewish hierarchy, would be a leap backward of two thousand years.


"the rights of other creeds and races will be respected under Jewish dominance," is the assurance of Zionism. But the keynotes of democracy are neither condescension nor tolerance but justice and equality. All this applies with special force to a country like Palestine. That land is filled with associations sacred to the followers of three great religions and as a result of migrating movements of many centuries contains an extraordinary number of different ethnic groups far out of proportion to the small extent of the country itself. Such a condition points clearly to a reorganization of Palestine on the broadest possible basis.

We object to the political segregation of the Jews because it is an error to assume that the bond uniting them is of a national character. They are bound by two factors: first, the bond of common religious beliefs...and secondly, the bond of common traditions, customs and experiences, largely, alas of common trials and sufferings. [but] nothing suggests they form in any real sense a separate nationalistic unit.



Eerily prescient.

[CheskiChips]

i differentiate between willfull and unwillfull ignorance

So I don't have to pitty you anymore? Or the Palestinians, since they have media coverage now?

[S.A.M.]

What does your conscience tell you?


Lucky pasta! When an American senator discovered Israel bans importing pasta into the Gaza Strip, a storm broke out. And ever since, senior Israeli defense officials have included noodles on their list of permitted products. And calves, how did we forget them? That was approved by the highest levels of the Defense Ministry. After all, the bureaucrat-officers would never have dared violate the siege directives.

But notebooks, textbooks, pens and pencils - whose lack is felt by Gaza's children due to the Israeli ban on letting "luxuries" into the Strip - have no well-fed public relations agents like pasta and calves did. Do Gaza's children need to draw or do their homework?
Advertisement

All right, forget about the pens. But what about the Gazan father whose Israeli son is being barred from visiting him by Israeli generals, after not seeing each other for seven years? What about the son being barred by those who carry out the orders from bidding his dying mother farewell in Jordan, or the engaged woman being barred from going to the West Bank to marry? Clearly, the wedding is a Palestinian plot to alter the demographic balance.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120642.html

Do you support this?

[S.A.M.]

A rare window into what happens to the "Gandhis" in Palestine:


On September 22, Mohammad Othman was arrested and detained by Israeli soldiers on the Allenby Bridge Crossing, the border from Jordan to Palestine. He was returning from a trip to Norway, where he was advocating for Palestinian human rights.

You can follow his case here: http://freemohammadothman.wordpress.com/

A petition to free him here: http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/301/t/9047/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=27938

Some background on this young man:


Mohammad is involved with Stop the Wall, the grassroots anti-Apartheid Wall campaign and War on Want partner organisation, and has dedicated the last 10 years of his life to the defence of Palestinian human rights. His village, Jayyous, in the occupied West Bank, has lost most of its fertile agricultural land to Israel’s illegal Wall and settlements.

It is believed that Othman is the first Palestinian to be imprisoned by Israel in response to BDS advocacy activity.

Mohammad’s ability to talk passionately about the effects of Israel’s illegal Occupation, combined with his warmth and good humour, has made him a popular activist in Palestine and with internationals alike.

"I learned more from spending a day driving around the West Bank with Othman, following the land-grabbing path of the Wall, than I have from reading dozens of books. His passion for knowledge and his love of the land are astounding and contagious." Naomi Klein 25/9/2009

http://www.waronwant.org/campaigns/fighting-occupation-in-palestine/extra/action/16671-act-now-to-free-mohammad-othman-

And here he is:

http://inthenameofsocialism.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/image-php.jpg

He is one of approximately 10,000 Palestinians being held prisoner by Israel.

[CheskiChips]

What does your conscience tell you?



http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1120642.html

Do you support this?

Yes.


A rare window into what happens to the "Gandhis" in Palestine:



You can follow his case here: http://freemohammadothman.wordpress.com/

A petition to free him here: http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/301/t/9047/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=27938

Some background on this young man:



http://www.waronwant.org/campaigns/fighting-occupation-in-palestine/extra/action/16671-act-now-to-free-mohammad-othman-

And here he is:

http://inthenameofsocialism.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/image-php.jpg

He is one of approximately 10,000 Palestinians being held prisoner by Israel.

Ghandi? Really? Don't you think you might be pushing it?

[S.A.M.]

Yes.

Then you have only to blame yourself for the inevitable consequences of what you support.


Ghandi? Really? Don't you think you might be pushing it?

Thats exactly what Gandhi did, thats exactly what happened to him. In fact, at least the British had the excuse of policemen being killed. The Israelis have none at all



Mohandas K. Gandhi emerged as the leader of India’s resistance to British colonial rule shortly after World War I. He wore the white loincloth of a Hindu holy man, led an ascetic existence, and espoused a doctrine of peaceful “non-cooperation” against the British Raj, according to The New York Times.

Gandhi was convicted in 1922 of conspiring to overthrow the government after leading a civil disobedience campaign aimed at ending British rule through such voluntary “non-cooperation” with British institutions.

His conviction came after an unruly crowd at a demonstration killed about 20 Indian policemen in the small market town of Chauri Chaura, India.

[CheskiChips]

Then you have only to blame yourself for the inevitable consequences of what you support.



Thats exactly what Gandhi did, thats exactly what happened to him. In fact, at least the British had the excuse of policemen being killed. The Israelis have none at all

If by support you mean "Mentally agree with" and by consequences you mean "Being granted citizenship to the only 1st world country in the Middle East" and by inevitable you mean "nothing will ever happen, and if it does and Islam was right...then I am screwed anyway for being Jewish."....Then you're right.

[S.A.M.]

If by support you mean "Mentally agree with" and by consequences you mean "Being granted citizenship to the only 1st world country in the Middle East" and by inevitable you mean "nothing will ever happen, and if it does and Islam was right...then I am screwed anyway for being Jewish."....Then you're right.

Here is a comforting thought. Based on 5000 years of Levantine history and especially the last 60 years of occupation history, you can rest assured that the Palestinians will not support doing to you, what you support doing to them.

[CheskiChips]

Here is a comforting thought. Based on 5000 years of Levantine history and especially the last 60 years of occupation history, you can rest assured that the Palestinians will not support doing to you, what you support doing to them.

We won't have a chance to see.

[S.A.M.]

You will, actually and probably sooner than you think. Most assuredly in your lifetime.

[CheskiChips]

You will, actually and probably sooner than you think. Most assuredly in your lifetime.

Not as long as the majority of the Middle East has something to live for. Israel won't fall, it has a unique language only local to that land, it has a currency, it has names that can't be found anywhere else, and it has a distinct style of dress. Even if you put someone else in charge for a day, it will be subverted almost immediately. (Oh yeah, Phalic Stein has none of those things)

See? Even the country of Palestine is Jewish.
Goldstein
Ripstein
Palestein.

[S.A.M.]

Not as long as the majority of the Middle East has something to live for. Israel won't fall, it has a unique language only local to that land, it has a currency, it has names that can't be found anywhere else, and it has a distinct style of dress. Even if you put someone else in charge for a day, it will be subverted almost immediately. (Oh yeah, Phalic Stein has none of those things)

The Hebrew language is a Canaanite one. The currency no one cares about, the style of dress is Middle Eastern and the names are found in Palestine. I don't know what that has to do with the occupation, which will assuredly fall.

[CheskiChips]

The Hebrew language is a Canaanite one. The currency no one cares about, the style of dress is Middle Eastern and the names are found in Palestine. I don't know what that has to do with the occupation, which will assuredly fall.

Okay, when somewhere a group of people that number 6 million start speaking Moabite or Edomite, then you have a point. Until then...:rolleyes:
No, Jewish style is unique. And you can tell the difference between Jewish and Arab names...my name for example...doesn't...Ezekiel is not pronounced Zulkifli.

And it's true.
Anyone with the word "Stein" in their name is automatically Jewish, therefore, Palestein is Jewish.

[S.A.M.]

Okay, when someone a group of people that number 6 million start speaking Moabite or Edomite, then you have a point. Until then...:rolleyes:
No, Jewish style is unique. And you can tell the difference between Jewish and Arab names...my name for example...doesn't...Ezekiel is not pronounced Zulkifli.

And it's true.
Anyone with the word "Stein" in their name is automatically Jewish, therefore, Palestein is Jewish.

And stein is an Ashkenazi German suffix. So all steins are also Germans, hence Palestine is Germany. :rolleyes:

[CheskiChips]

And stein is an Ashkenazi German suffix. So all steins are also Germans. :rolleyes:

Muslims also have a poorer sense of humor. Jews could not only retake the nation, but do it in a comedic fashion.

[S.A.M.]

Muslims also have a poorer sense of humor. Jews could not only retake the nation, but do it in a comedic fashion.

Moreover, stein is a German word meaning rock, so all Jews called stein are descended from rocks. Which explains why the majority of them are so hardhearted towards Palestinians.:D

It also explains why hasbara tactic number one is "We rock" :roflmao:

[pjdude1219]

We won't have a chance to see.

So you honestly believe that despite jewish states histories that Israel will not fall?

[CheskiChips]

So you honestly believe that despite jewish states histories that Israel will not fall?

Which histories? The ones that happened 2000 years ago, or the one that happened 2500 years ago?


Moreover, stein is a German word meaning rock, so all Jews called stein are descended from rocks. Which explains why the majority of them are so hardhearted towards Palestinians.:D

It also explains why hasbara tactic number one is "We rock" :roflmao:

You just proved we're more clever.

[S.A.M.]

You just proved we're more clever.

How is that working out for you?;)

[pjdude1219]

Which histories? The ones that happened 2000 years ago, or the one that happened 2500 years ago? I thought jewish states in palestine started 3000 years ago according to you. or is that only used to try and unsuccessfully claim that jewish roots go back to before it was called palestine(the etymology of palestine predates the archeological evidence of a jewish state).

of every jewish state. the longest I thinks was of the khazars when they were jewish and that only lasted tops 300 year I believe.

[CheskiChips]

I thought jewish states in palestine started 3000 years ago according to you. or is that only used to try and unsuccessfully claim that jewish roots go back to before it was called palestine(the etymology of palestine predates the archeological evidence of a jewish state).

of every jewish state. the longest I thinks was of the khazars when they were jewish and that only lasted tops 300 year I believe.

1. Canaan predates Israel, that's even written by the earliest Jews ever to live. It was called Canaan.

2. The etymology of "Palestine" comes from "Plishtim" the first ever recording of this word is in the book of Samuel, not archaeological evidence. Those people also came from the sea and were not local to the area.

3. Khazars converted to Judaism and I they existed before they were Jewish, and after they stopped being Jewish.

4. The Jewish nation lasted for 480 years in its first reign.

[S.A.M.]

The Jewish nation lasted for 480 years in its first reign.

Are you certain? Didn't it barely last a century [if at all, there has been no archaeological evidence to support its existence, while Canaanite artifacts that predate it are pretty numerous]?

[pjdude1219]

1. Canaan predates Israel, that's even written by the earliest Jews ever to live. It was called Canaan. they why not call it Canaan instead of the grossly inaccurate Israel.


2. The etymology of "Palestine" comes from "Plishtim" the first ever recording of this word is in the book of Samuel, not archaeological evidence. Those people also came from the sea and were not local to the area. actually the earliest archeological evidence for palestines etymology comes from egyptian records. Not surprising you try and pretend it was jewish.


3. Khazars converted to Judaism and I they existed before they were Jewish, and after they stopped being Jewish. they only lasted about 300 years as a jewish state.


4. The Jewish nation lasted for 480 years in its first reign.
first a nation is the people so if you believe that it would mean you don't think jews exist anymore. secondly no jewish state lasted anywhere near that long. your combining the united monarchy with its to succesor states which is dishonest.

[CheskiChips]

Are you certain? Didn't it barely last a century [if at all, there has been no archaeological evidence to support its existence, while Canaanite artifacts that predate it are pretty numerous]?

No, 480 years. And you're wrong. They've found everything from graffiti about Hezekiah implementing a draft to actual vessels under the temple. The Al-Aqsa people are trying their damnedest to get it all removed, and they're trying their best to desecrate it seems.:mad:



they why not call it Canaan instead of the grossly inaccurate Israel.


Because the Canaanites were basically slaves after the Jews entered.



actually the earliest archeological evidence for palestines etymology comes from egyptian records. Not surprising you try and pretend it was jewish.

I'd like to read about that one from a reliable source.



they only lasted about 300 years as a jewish state.


first a nation is the people so if you believe that it would mean you don't think jews exist anymore. secondly no jewish state lasted anywhere near that long. your combining the united monarchy with its to succesor states which is dishonest.

It's not dishonest, it's the same people, the same land, the lame language....different government. You're silly pjfood. :rolleyes:

[pjdude1219]

No, 480 years. And you're wrong. They've found everything from graffiti about Hezekiah implementing a draft to actual vessels under the temple. The Al-Aqsa people are trying their damnedest to get it all removed, and they're trying their best to desecrate it seems.:mad: so multiple states count as 1?





Because the Canaanites were basically slaves after the Jews entered. So you want to use a more historical insignificant name due to your personal connection to it



I'd like to read about that one from a reliable source. try looking up wikipedia's source for it. I'd like to here one reliable source to prove that it came from jewish languages




It's not dishonest, it's the same people, the same land, the lame language....different government. You're silly pjfood. :rolleyes:

different state. Its dishonest. and I have asked you before not to call me Pjfood. but than again respect is beyond you.

[CheskiChips]

Apparently the same Sea people invaded both Egypt and Israel.

[S.A.M.]

Two important documents today, both taking aim at the pro-Israel Lobby in the US as a player in the I-P crisis

1. A leaked memo from PA [intentional?] indicating loss of faith in Obama


An internal document circulated among members of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas' political party says all hopes placed in the Obama administration "have evaporated" because of alleged White House backtracking on key issues to the Palestinians.

The Fatah Party memorandum, obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press, accuses the United States of backing off from its demands that Israel freeze settlement construction and failing to set a clear agenda for new Mideast peace talks.

It wasn't immediately clear whether the Oct. 12 document reflected Abbas' views or was intended to be leaked as Fatah's attempt to pressure President Barack Obama to bear down harder on Israel.

The document said the Palestinians have lost hope in Obama and accused the American leader of caving in to pressure from pro-Israel lobbyists in Washington.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD9BA4TMO1

2. A letter from J Street to Michael Oren


We too have our own serious concerns over the policies of the present Israeli government and its impact not just on Israel’s interests but on our interests as Americans and as American Jews. As Jews who care about Israel, we fear that, on Israel’s present path, we will see our shared dream of a Jewish, democratic home in the state of Israel slip through our fingers.

As Americans, we worry about the impact of Israeli policies on vital US interests in the Middle East and around the world.

Finally, as American Jews, we worry that the health and vitality of our community will be deeply affected by what happens in the region, how the world perceives Israel and by how our community here at home deals with increasingly complex conversations around Israel.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1255450643490&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

edit: make that three documents.

A Ha'aretz exclusive: Palestinians draft a resolution on Gaza, Goldstone and the Temple mount

http://www.haaretz.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D141009/draft1.gif

source:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1121025.html

[S.A.M.]

Something to think about:




"The more I think about the President's declaration as to the right of 'self-determination,' the more convinced I am of the danger of
putting such ideas into the minds of certain races. It is bound to be the basis of impossible demands on the Peace Congress and create trouble in many lands.

"What effect will it have on the Irish, the Indians, the Egyptians, and the nationalists among the Boers? Will it not breed discontent,
disorder, and rebellion? Will not the Mohammedans of Syria and Palestine and possibly of Morocco and Tripoli rely on it? How can it
be harmonized with Zionism, to which the President is practically committed?

"The phrase is simply loaded with dynamite. It will raise hopes which can never be realized. It will, I fear, cost thousands of lives. In the end it is bound to be discredited, to be called the dream of an idealist who failed to realize the danger until too late to check those who attempt to put the principle in force. What a calamity that the phrase was ever uttered! What misery it will cause!"


-Robert Lansing, Secretary of State to Wilson




"If the race is in danger of being oppressed or even exterminated the question of legality is only of secondary importance. The established power may in such a case employ only those means which are recognized as 'legal'. yet the instinct of self-preservation on the part of the oppressed will always justify, to the highest degree, the employment of all possible resources.

"Only on the recognition of this principle was it possible for those
struggles to be carried through, of which history furnishes magnificent examples in abundance, against foreign bondage or oppression at home.

"Human rights are above the rights of the State."

-Mein Kampf

Hitler 'understood' that peoples had a right to their homeland. The 'national' part of National Socialism was not civic nationalism, the nationalism that calls on French, German, American, Italian or Spanish *citizens* to cherish and defend their countries. It was ethnic nationalism, the nationalism of 'peoples', races, who did not have a homeland, or who had suffered a diaspora or historic wrongs. Hitler held that the German people had suffered both and was threatened with extinction. The Germans wanted their homeland back, all of it. Every other people had its homeland; why not the Germans?


An excellent article on ethnic nationalism by Michael Neumann

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10142009.html

[S.A.M.]

How to advertise when you are breaking international laws:


Following reports published by The Electronic Intifada on the use of Volvo equipment in the demolition of Palestinian houses in 2007, the Volvo Group stated that it did not condone the use of its equipment for such purposes. Claiming to have no control over the use of its products, Volvo affirmed that its Code of Conduct decries unethical behavior. In spite of these claims, The Electronic Intifada has found that through its Volvo Buses branch, the Volvo Group is providing armored buses to transport Israeli settlers in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).

Volvo Buses is co-owner of Merkavim Ltd., an Israeli transport technology company. Another shareholder in the company is Mayer's Cars and Trucks, the exclusive Israeli representative of companies from the Volvo Group. According to Merkavim's website, the company was chosen by Volvo as "its major body builder in the Middle East." However, the Who Profits from the Occupation? project recently reported that Merkavim manufactures an armored version of Volvo's Mars Defender bus for the Israeli public transport company Egged. Egged uses the Mars Defender to provide bus services for illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Merkavim proudly announced on its website that the Mars Defender offers protection and ultimate comfort when traveling through war zones or routes susceptible to terrorist attacks. In a promotional video the armored bus is shown driving along Israel's wall in the West Bank and crossing checkpoints (http://www.merkavim.co.il/upload/defender.wmv, accessed 6 October). In another video on Merkavim's homepage, Volvo's Senior Vice-President of Business Region Europe, Lars Blom, declares that "Three core values that are very important to us are quality, environmental care and safety. ... [T]he products we are developing with Merkavim also deliver these three core values plus reliability" (http://www.merkavim.co.il/movies_library/merkavim.wmv, accessed 7 October 2009)

According to Merkavim, in the video promoting the bus, the Mars Defender "looks like any other modern bus," but it is "the world's most armored bus." Indeed, the company calls it "the bus that saves lives!" As the narrator explains that the bus is "designed to safeguard the most precious cargo," the camera pans over Israeli soldiers lining up to board the bus and on patrol with their machine guns at the ready. The video explains that Israel has "adapted its world renowned expertise in military and defense technologies to deal with" the "growing threat" of "terrorists and hostile forces." It adds that Merkavim "blends this state of the art know-how with its own expertise" to produce the Mars Defender. Built on a Volvo chassis, the Mars Defender's sides, front, roof and floor are shielded with steel armored panels and it is fitted with bullet- and explosion-proof armored glass windows as well as "run-flat" tires. According to the company, these safety measures allow the bus to withstand "grenades, car bombs, roadside charges and 7.62 caliber armor-piercing bullets." Merkavim claims that these features are needed because "people trust this bus with their lives."

The 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice on Israel's wall in the West Bank confirmed that settlements violate Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Article 49 explicitly states that the Occupying Power is not allowed to deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Bus services with Volvo subsidiary's Mars Defender armored buses facilitate the maintaining of illegal settlements in the OPT.

http://www.therebel.org/business/middle_east/volvo_providing_armored_buses_for_israeli_settleme nts_2009100766529/

[S.A.M.]

"Breaking their Bones" strategy during the first intifada

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMXpvOFuOQ

[CheskiChips]

How about watch this, it's why Israel will always win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMgr6awbwEE&feature=related

[S.A.M.]

Win what?

[pjdude1219]

How about watch this, it's why Israel will always win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMgr6awbwEE&feature=related

planes are nice but what if they don't have a safe place to land?

[CheskiChips]

planes are nice but what if they don't have a safe place to land?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6kKtj5vyQ

[pjdude1219]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6kKtj5vyQ

armies are nice but what if they don't know how to fight an equal opponent?

[CheskiChips]

armies are nice but what if they don't know how to fight an equal opponent?

Look at wounded / death tallies in all Israeli wars, and get back. They don't have an equal - it isn't their fault.

[pjdude1219]

Look at wounded / death tallies in all Israeli wars, and get back. They don't have an equal - it isn't their fault.

well actually it is. they engendered the difference in western support.

[CheskiChips]

well actually it is. they engendered the difference in western support.

ther waz no helpz in th0z w8rs b. U lyin.

[pjdude1219]

ther waz no helpz in th0z w8rs b. U lyin.

so all those weapons for the chezhs and money stateside were what exactly?

[CheskiChips]

so all those weapons for the chezhs and money stateside were what exactly?

Payment for "free" Mossad intelligence.

[pjdude1219]

Payment for "free" Mossad intelligence.
the Mossad didn't exist yet

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

God your whiny. if you don't like people going after your asserations about them don't make them. and there is nothing paranoid about my reaction. just because you don't want to take responsibility for what your saying don't lash out at me.

No PJ you don't take responsibility for your persecution complex. I stand by what I said, if its not understood by you because you are too emotionally infantile well that's just your problem not mine. I mean if you were not paranoid why start threads proclaiming your ancestry and a 'non-muslim' if it wasn't for the fact that you think anyone really gives a shit or that it has any bearing whatsoever in these discussions. Get over yourself!

[S.A.M.]

Ethan Heitner for Adalah-NY has made a comic poster to spread awareness of the imprisonment of Mohammed Othman, a human rights activist in Palestine [previously mentioned here (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2385960&postcount=137)]


http://mondoweiss.net/images/mohammadothman1.jpg
http://mondoweiss.net/images/mohammadothman2.jpg

Original here (http://adalahny.org/index.php/land-developers-bds/324-jailed-for-an-idea-free-mohammad-othman-comic?format=pdf)

[pjdude1219]

No PJ you don't take responsibility for your persecution complex. I don't have a persacution complex.
I stand by what I said, if its not understood by you because you are too emotionally infantile well that's just your problem not mine. I understood exactly what you were saying. you just don't want to take responsibility for your implied insult. just like everyone who uses implied insulys.
I mean if you were not paranoid why start threads proclaiming your ancestry and a 'non-muslim' if it wasn't for the fact that you think anyone really gives a shit or that it has any bearing whatsoever in these discussions. Get over yourself!

You really have no idea why I created that thread. I got tired of having to defend against that ad hominum when the facts could be used to debate. Once again whining that people called you out on bullshit while attacking over shit you don't know the reasons for.




and lucy if you weren't implying I should be a terrorist why limit to gaza rather than the occupied territories.

[Brian Foley]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 1/12


Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes
The Jerusalem Center for Social and Economic Rights (JCSER) stated that the new list of Palestinian homes slated for demolition does not include the 125 homes and apartments against which Israel had previously issued demolition orders.

Israel frequently orders hundreds of Palestinians to leave their homes in the occupied east Jerusalem Al-Quds, claiming that they do not have proper documentation for their dwellings.

The residents, however, argue that Israeli military occupation officials withhold their documents or refuse to issue documents for their houses.
The status of Jerusalem Al-Quds is among the crucial outstanding issues of the Middle East peace process, with the Palestinians reiterating that any Palestinian state should include the city as its capital.
Read more…. ( http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=108637&sectionid=351020202)
Under General Assembly Resolution 273, Israel was admitted on the condition that it grant all Palestinians the right to return to their homes and receive compensation for lost or damaged property, according to General Assembly Resolution 194, paragraph 11.

Suffice to say, Israel has never lived up to these terms.
Israel's membership in the UN is therefore null and void.

[S.A.M.]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 2/12

Apparently, this is how a "democracy" works. Any information on where the Palestinians will go? Gaza perhaps? Where they will need to be defended against with blockades and white phosphorus for not understanding the anguish of the Jewish state?

[S.A.M.]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 3/12

Well you know what they say, beware of what you wish for:



Sultan Abu al-Ghneim, who represents Fatah in the refugee camps of Lebanon, gave a speech last week at a Ramallah rally and called on Fatah to resume suicide bombings against Israel, according to the report in the London-based Al-Quds al-Arabi. But how reliable the report is remains unclear.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1121968.html

[S.A.M.]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 4/12

Too bad they don't follow the Jewish precedent of ethnic nationalism, which kinda makes your argument suck. Not for lack of trying.


The Arabs, understood as the ensemble of Arabic speakers, are by no stretch of the imagination 'a people'. They pay a heavy price for this dubious self-description. On the one hand, it associates every Arabic speaker with every crime of every other Arabic speaker - this holds even for some whose native tongue isn't Arabic but who live in officially 'Arab' countries. It is as if the Sudanese 'Arab' militias were the armies of a 'people' encompassing the Syrians of Tyre and the Berbers of Marrakesh.

Perhaps this bad press is a mere annoyance. But there is worse. Not only the rest of the world but 'the Arabs' themselves have come think they are somehow a hopeless case: why on earth can't they unite? Why don't they do more for the Palestinians? Why the endless bickering and mistrust? 'The Arabs' in these respects seem like perennial losers incapable of self-government, markedly inferior to 'the Jews'. This impression is only partly countered by savvy remarks about an 'Arab street', always on the verge of rising up against their rotten rulers, yet never, it seems, more genuinely committed to the Palestinians than a fan club to their favorite football team. To the extent that unsustainable attempts at constructing an Arab identity have contributed to the decline of Middle East secularism, they have also contributed to the rise of fanatical religious extremists. This too has hurt the Arabic-speaking world.

Not only does Arab nationalism make 'the Arabs' look bad; it also obscures what is good. When Arab states support and sustain the Palestinians, it is much more from genuine altruism than from bogus racial solidarity. But to the extent that Arabs do not do all that is expected of them - do not take in the Palestinians, do not invite them in as fellow-Arabs, the reason is simple. The Palestinians are not fellow-Arabs. They have no home, no 'homeland' if you like, but Palestine. Wondering why their 'brother Arabs' do not to take them in makes as much sense as wondering why Northern Irish Protestants would not welcome as brothers their 'fellow Anglophones' from Dublin or Watts or the slums of Kingston, Jamaica.

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10142009.html

[spidergoat]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 5/12

They tried Arab nationalism in Palestine and got their ass kicked. Now they resort to instigating violence and whining to the media about the results.

[pjdude1219]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 6/12


They tried Arab nationalism in Palestine and got their ass kicked. yes it is very said they lost to the invading powers.
Now they resort to instigating violence and whining to the media about the results.

they have to use violence. If they didn't no one would ever hear about them.

[S.A.M.]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 7/12


They tried Arab nationalism in Palestine and got their ass kicked. Now they resort to instigating violence and whining to the media about the results.

No "they" never tried Arab nationalism in Palestine. The British did. To oppose the Ottomans.

Ever see Emir Feisal of Iraq?

http://i-cias.com/e.o/ill/faisal_1_iraq.jpg

What the "Arabs" did was what the Americans would do if Canada or Australia was invaded and occupied by foreign immigrants who want to establish an ethnocratic state. They came to help. And, they never went beyond the boundaries mandated under the British as Palestine.

[Brian Foley]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 8/12


Apparently, this is how a "democracy" works. Any information on where the Palestinians will go? Gaza perhaps? Where they will need to be defended against with blockades and white phosphorus for not understanding the anguish of the Jewish state?
Israel is running out of options here, it is a case of sweeping the dust under the carpet, the problem is being moved around and it wont disappear. Staving off the inevitability of Palestinian demographic takeover of that nation.
Hopefully, they will blow themselves up with a suicide bomb.lets hope they detonate themselves within the Dimona complex that we in the Free West had to pay for, from my experience in construction detonations within confined areas become devastating.
also we don't need like daily updates on Israel's crimes hereYes we do, seeing me and the rest of the people in the free West are financing that countries existence we have a right to a say.

[S.A.M.]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 9/12

I think its ironic that most Jews are keeping silent as Israel erases all options for peace. They will pay heavily for that silence in the future, unfortunately.

[Brian Foley]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 10/12


I think its ironic that most Jews are keeping silent as Israel erases all options for peace. They will pay heavily for that silence in the future, unfortunately.
Face it as Americas economy contracts Israel will weaken and be alone, and when Israel has no benefactor to protect them there will be no nation in the Mid East that will want to trade with them either. It is a done deal for Israel.

[S.A.M.]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 11/12

The Middle East is the least of their worries. If there is anything that is Arabic, it is generosity of spirit. Its the rest of the world they should worry about.

[StrawDog]

Mod Note: Thread merged from Israel to raze 150 Palestinian homes Post 12/12


also we don't need like daily updates on Israel's crimes here
Like this.

Israel refuses French FM's request to visit Gaza link (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1122381.html)

[hypewaders]

Mod Note: The 5 posts that follow, including this one were brought over from World Events \ Iran's Nuclear Program May Have Military Dimentias (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=2394456&posted=1#post2394456)

Hitchens is inconsistent. He tries to explain it away by quoting F.Scott Fitzgerald:

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. One should, for example, be able to see that things are hopeless yet be determined to make them otherwise."


Do I sometimes wish (http://www.slate.com/id/2191193/) that Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann had never persuaded either the Jews or the gentiles to create a quasi-utopian farmer-and-worker state at the eastern end of the Mediterranean? Yes. Do I wish that the Israeli air force could find and destroy all the arsenals of Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad? Yes.

Although I've agreed with him at times I don't have a lot of respect for Hitchens. I suspect he mostly says and writes things to be televised or published, with self-promotion foremost in consideration; If he were posting here we would have a delightfully intelligent troll to wrangle.

BTW Sam "ZOG" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government) is a term I appreciate much less than Hitchens, and I'll probably go mod if I see it around more. To bandy it here even in jest (since it was coined by white supremacists) is in bad taste. Bin Laden was right about some things too, but I still don't want to see his schtick replicated much.

[S.A.M.]

since it was coined by white supremacists

Really? I came across it at mondoweiss, and I thought it was a term coined by the new Zionists or the post Zionists or the anti-zionists whatever they are calling themselves now. Its a frequent topic of discussion there.

[hypewaders]

Well, you're wrong. Small consolation, since you were right about the Israeli left. I've been catching up on them, and they're about as well-organized as "al-Qaeda". But I still believe that their greatest days are just ahead; that Likud is going to hit the skids much like their neocon partners did.

Edit: I'll get back to Israeli Leftists in the appropriate thread. I'm putting it off because it's a little bit humiliating. But this thread is supposed to be about Russia's Iran's scary atom-bombs, and our problematic Mission Gap in the USA.

[S.A.M.]

Well, you're wrong. Small consolation, since you were right about the Israeli left. I've been catching up on them, and they're about as well-organized as "al-Qaeda". But I still believe that their greatest days are just ahead; that Likud is going to hit the skids much like their neocon partners did.

Okay, if I cannot call them zoggers, can I say Israel-firsters instead? [although I love zoggers, it has a cool ring to it].

Yeah, I know about the [lack of] Israeli left. I keep up with the major players in I-P ever since I attended the Iranian students meet two years ago. I'm with the refuseniks of course. You should read the Israeli papers to see whats going on with J Street in the US currently. Although its Zionism lite, they are being thrashed soundly by the ***gers in an attempt to destroy them before they make any problems for Israel. There is nothing about it in US media of course.

Oh and if you want to meet the tiny tiny Israeli left, look for Joseph Dana and Gideon Levy.

[hypewaders]

"Zoggers" sounds good, but if anyone checks the derivation, they will be sucked into the antisamite-antisemite vortex. So think of something better, In fact I'm going to try and move our little sidebar to the Israel/Palestine thread if you don't mind.

End of post merge

[hypewaders]

look for Joseph Dana and Gideon Levy

Thanks, I'm doing that now...

Hmmm post-zionists, refuseniks, anti-zionist jews I'm also thinking about this but I think I must say "Zogger" is mamnua, yahneh.

[GeoffP]

How dare you think up the term "antiS.A.M.ite"? That occurred to me just an hour ago.

[S.A.M.]

Ok, I don't want to offend any sensitive souls, but I think it would be better in the long run, to talk about it now than have it become a powder keg later.

Since I am name dropping, check out Amira Hass, Ta'anit Tzedek, check out the kids who were/are touring the US [Shminitism] note the total media silence on these issues. Hence the ***gers/

[hypewaders]

That's right. I'm glad we got this settled. Now we just need a fitting term to replace "Zoggers".

"How dare you think up the term "antiS.A.M.ite"?"

I know I'm not the one who coined the term. I've suffered greatly as a victim of it, though. I remember the first antisamite pogroms back in 2004...

[S.A.M.]

Ok its up to you since my soul is politically incorrect. Meanwhile I shall contend myself with ***gers.

[hypewaders]

So idiots will substitute "nig"? No, you can do better than that. Sheesh I'm learning Urdu, and you can't come up with a single word? Get with the Program, Sam. :p

[S.A.M.]

I must be too full of wedding biryani, I didn't even think of niggers. Sheesh!

Urdu taaleem kaise chal rahi hai?

[GeoffP]

That's right. I'm glad we got this settled. Now we just need a fitting term to replace "Zoggers".

"How dare you think up the term "antiS.A.M.ite"?"

I know I'm not the one who coined the term. I've suffered greatly as a victim of it, though. I remember the first antisamite pogroms back in 2004...

Then I sympathize with your loss during the horrible antisamite pogroms.

Also, for attacking you during the horrible antisamite pogroms. The axe was entirely unnecessary, I agree. I can only hope we will get past the uncomfortable silences, eye avoidance and circumnavigatory conversation at tea breaks.

[hypewaders]

"Urdu taaleem kaise chal rahi hai?"

Haazir mushkil waqt.

"I can only hope we will get past the uncomfortable silences, eye avoidance and circumnavigatory conversation at tea breaks."

Um, yes Kommisar. That was very long ago.

/handshake

[S.A.M.]

"Urdu taaleem kaise chal rahi hai?"

Haazir mushkil waqt.


1/3

Bahut mushkil hai?

Dheere dheere aasaan ho jayegi.

[Zakariya04]

yawn

[hypewaders]

Moderator note: This would seem a good place to unsticky and close this first volume. Thanks to all who participated thus far.

Israel & Palestine (v2) (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=97021) is a place to continue.