Israel begins sell-off of refugees' land

[StrawDog]

A disturbing development, not even causing a ripple in Western media. Unbelievably flagrant disregard for International Law from the apartheid regime in Israel as it goes about redistributing stolen Palestinian land to Jews.
"According to international law, Israel holds the property of more than four million Palestinian refugees in custodianship, until a final peace deal determines whether some or all of them will be allowed back to their 400-plus destroyed Palestinian villages or are compensated for their loss. But last week, in a violation of international law and the refugees’ property rights that went unnoticed both inside Israel and abroad, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, forced through a revolutionary land reform."

The new law begins a process of creeping privatisation of much of Israel’s developed land, including refugee property, said Oren Yiftachel, a geographer at Ben Gurion University in Beersheva.

Arguments from the Palestinian minority’s leaders against the reform, meanwhile, were ignored -- until Hizbollah’s leader, Hassan Nasrallah, added his voice at the weekend. In a statement, he warned that the law “validates and perpetuates the crime of land and property theft from the Palestinian refugees of the 1948 Nakba”.

Suhad Bishara, a lawyer from the Adalah legal centre for Israel’s Palestinian minority, said the law had been carefully drafted to ensure that foreigners, including wealthy sheikhs, cannot buy land inside Israel.

“Only Israeli citizens and anyone who can come to Israel under the Law of Return -- that is, any Jew -- can buy the lands on offer, so no ‘foreigner’ will be eligible.” (http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/65425)

Any comments regarding 1. the brazen disregard for the law, and 2. the entrenchment of Jewish settlements that may prove almost impossible to undo, and 3. the inherent dishonesty of this process?

[S.A.M.]

Oh well, the Arabs are buying in.

Wealthy Arab investors from Persian Gulf states have bankrolled the purchase of hundreds of dunams of privately-owned agricultural land in the Galilee, according to Israel Radio.

Agrarian non-government groups banded together in a bid to halt the sale of land to Arab buyers, though they were unsuccessful in raising the necessary funds needed to buy the land from owners who were forced to sell the property due to economic hardship, Israel Radio reported.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1107652.html


Although, its optimistic of them to think they can help. I can see Israel using the excuse of dominion and government use to steal it back from investors.

[mike47]

It seems Obama promised Palestinians fruits and he is delivering spikes instead .
Palestinians' suffering is well on the rise and their own differences are not helping as well .

[ElectricFetus]

It seems Obama promised Palestinians fruits and he is delivering spikes instead .
Palestinians' suffering is well on the rise and their own differences are not helping as well .

Obama is not doing this, how is Obama suppose to stop the Israelis?

[pjdude1219]

obama is not doing this, how is obama suppose to stop the israelis?

b-2s

[ElectricFetus]

b-2s

¿qué?

[S.A.M.]

Isn't this ironic?

–The Fatah movement of Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas has elected an Israeli Jew to one of its governing bodies for the first time in the movement’s half-century history.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/08/20098162359704900.html

–The J Street political action committee has received tens of thousands of dollars in donations from dozens of Arab and Muslim Americans, as well as

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1249418604334&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Meanwhile in fa-la-la-la land:

Within an hour of arriving at the Palestinian hamlet of Susiya, the local settlers decided to make an unwelcome appearance on the farmers’ land, shattering the calm of dusk as the sun set over the Judean hills. The intruders drove their sheep all the way to the edge of the Palestinians’ encampment, encouraging their animals to gorge themselves on the sparse flora belonging to their neighbours’ flocks.

Watching a crime take place is never pleasant for onlookers, but the experience is made infinitely worse when there is no recourse whatsoever to ameliorate the situation. In more tolerant and equitable societies, witnesses can pick up the phone and call the authorities, in the hope and expectation that the police will intervene on behalf of the victim and right the wrong being committed. But when the very security forces meant to deal out justice are standing alongside the criminals and providing armed cover for their actions, the sense of disbelief and disaffection with the status quo is off the scale.

In this case, the two settlers were aided and abetted by a pair of M16-toting Israel Defence Force guards, who stood menacingly in position to keep the distraught Palestinian farmers at bay; the hopeless cries of opposition by the landowners falling on deaf ears, the stony-faced soldiers gazed on impassively and let the settlers brazenly steal the crops from under their noses. Neither the farmers, their families, the NGO workers staying with them nor our group of eight visiting observers could do a thing to prevent the theft – and the micro-story on this remote patch of scrubland embodies the macro situation across the region as a whole.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/aug/17/israel-settlers-army-susiya

[pjdude1219]

¿qué?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-2_Spirit
B-2 spirit

[spidergoat]

Those sheep must be stopped by any means necessary!

[ElectricFetus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-2_Spirit
B-2 spirit

I figured that already but that does what for who now?

[pjdude1219]

Those sheep must be stopped by any means necessary!

Yes they do. Next time one of those sheep does that they should be shot.

[CheskiChips]

What do you want Israel to do, they have a population exploding and nowhere to put their citizens. "Property encroachment" is the result of being unable to find housing for anyone as a result of the building freeze implemented by the US Government. When the population grows and building new housing is outlawed what are Israelis to do? They'd build new cities, but it's not permitted...so they simply expand their present cities.

[StrawDog]

Isn't this ironic?
Meanwhile in fa-la-la-la land:

This is ironic. Milibrand, in all his wisdom, says, that some terrorist organizations, who perpetrate violence to gain freedom, like the ANC, (who were supported by the UK) are acceptable. So, if a shred of honesty is employed, Milibrand should support HAMAS against the apartheid Israeli regime. This is a sad epoch for justice and integrity.

[pjdude1219]

What do you want Israel to do, they have a population exploding and nowhere to put their citizens. "Property encroachment" is the result of being unable to find housing for anyone as a result of the building freeze implemented by the US Government. When the population grows and building new housing is outlawed what are Israelis to do? They'd build new cities, but it's not permitted...so they simply expand their present cities.

So there stealing palestinians land because the US won't let them steal palestinian land? The building freeze is in the west bank and gaza if they actually built on the land that they stole that everyone acknowledges is "theirs" there wouldn't be a problem.

[quadraphonics]

So there stealing palestinians land because the US won't let them steal palestinian land?

More like they're stealing nominally Palestinian land in order to prove to their electorate that they are resisting American prohibitions on stealing actual Palestinian land.


The building freeze is in the west bank and gaza if they actually built on the land that they stole that everyone acknowledges is "theirs" there wouldn't be a problem.

There is no land that everyone aknowledges is "theirs."

[CheskiChips]

So there stealing palestinians land because the US won't let them steal palestinian land? The building freeze is in the west bank and gaza if they actually built on the land that they stole that everyone acknowledges is "theirs" there wouldn't be a problem.


PM's Office confirms moratorium will be in effect until beginning of 2010 to give peace process chance to gain steam, entice international community to recognize Israel's sovereignty in Jerusalem, large settlement blocs. Right, haredim express disappointment over policy; 'We don’t intervene in construction in Arizona,' MK Hershkowitz says

I remember reading an entire interview in an Israeli paper where that guy simply referred to the US as 'Rome', repeatedly.

So seriously what do you expect of the people here? The agreement is that they won't build in any disputed areas. But the problem is no one can agree on what's being disputed! You ask an Arab in the south and the dispute is over Aza, you ask one in the North...they say everything from Hebron north...you ask one in Jerusalem...they say "East Jerusalem" and you ask one in the middle of the country they say "All of Israel". So should Israel appease all of them and cease to exist? Asking any of the Arab nations nearby that's the fairest compromise.

Basically it can all be summed up by this translation.
'Justice' translated to 'התפשר' which translates to ' هيمنة'
And in reverse...
' توصل الى تفاهم' translates to 'שמד' which translates as 'Peace in the Middle East'

[ElectricFetus]

Still waiting for the answer on how obama can stop this.

[Asguard]

What would happen if there as a compleate frezze on all money tranfered to israil?

[noodler]

I could not help but notice a certain parallel, vis-a-vis a poster's comment about the poor, underpopulated Israelis:

"
What do you want [Palestinians] to do, they have a population exploding and nowhere to put their citizens. "Property encroachment" is the result of being unable to find housing for anyone as a result of the building ... implemented by the [Israeli] Government. When the population grows and building new housing is [prevented by the IDF] what are [Palestinians] to do? They'd build new cities, but it's not permitted [by Israel's regime and its military wing]...so they simply [stay] in their present [ghettos].
"

[ElectricFetus]

What would happen if there as a complete freeze on all money transferred to Israel?

And how could that happen?

[Asguard]

err the same way its has been enforced on other countries in the past?

Most (if not all) international fund transfers go through banks which are regulated by goverments or the goverments themselves. You cut off the money surply you cut off the ability for a corupt goverment to buy ammo and there for you cut off there ability to win. As most of the money surply to israil comes from the US all it would require is a vote in congress rather than the UN to serverly cut israils "punch". You can further inhanse this by trade embargoes and the next level again by a full naval blockade of the country (though this one would require a UN resolution i belive)

[ElectricFetus]

err the same way its has been enforced on other countries in the past?

Most (if not all) international fund transfers go through banks which are regulated by goverments or the goverments themselves. You cut off the money surply you cut off the ability for a corupt goverment to buy ammo and there for you cut off there ability to win. As most of the money surply to israil comes from the US all it would require is a vote in congress rather than the UN to serverly cut israils "punch". You can further inhanse this by trade embargoes and the next level again by a full naval blockade of the country (though this one would require a UN resolution i belive)

Other countries did not have the Israeli lobby.

[pjdude1219]

More like they're stealing nominally Palestinian land in order to prove to their electorate that they are resisting American prohibitions on stealing actual Palestinian land. international law says that what the refugees owned cannot be taken. But than considering Israel's compliance with international law.



There is no land that everyone aknowledges is "theirs."

Ok what most people acknowledge as "theirs" so they won't throw a hissyfit.

[pjdude1219]

I remember reading an entire interview in an Israeli paper where that guy simply referred to the US as 'Rome', repeatedly.

So seriously what do you expect of the people here? The agreement is that they won't build in any disputed areas. But the problem is no one can agree on what's being disputed! You ask an Arab in the south and the dispute is over Aza, you ask one in the North...they say everything from Hebron north...you ask one in Jerusalem...they say "East Jerusalem" and you ask one in the middle of the country they say "All of Israel". So should Israel appease all of them and cease to exist? Asking any of the Arab nations nearby that's the fairest compromise.
I expect them not to be self absorbed(minimizing everyone else and inflating themselves and their needs and concerns) greedy(taking more and more land that isn't theirs when they have availibe land that can be used.) bigoted(putting one people above all others) assholes( all of the previous reasons) and given the past 60 years that's too much. I expect them to treat the rightful owners of palestine with respect and work toward a future where all residents of palestine can live and prosper there in equality.

Basically it can all be summed up by this translation.
'Justice' translated to 'התפשר' which translates to ' هيمنة'
And in reverse...
' توصل الى تفاهم' translates to 'שמד' which translates as 'Peace in the Middle East'
thats closer to tranliteration than translation.

[StrawDog]

More like they're stealing nominally Palestinian land in order to prove to their electorate that they are resisting American prohibitions on stealing actual Palestinian land.
There is no land that everyone aknowledges is "theirs."
To reiterate.
According to international law, Israel holds the property of more than four million Palestinian refugees in custodianship, until a final peace deal determines whether some or all of them will be allowed back to their 400-plus destroyed Palestinian villages or are compensated for their loss. But last week, in a violation of international law and the refugees’ property rights that went unnoticed both inside Israel and abroad, Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister, forced through a revolutionary land reform. (http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/65425)
The binding law of custodianship under refugee property rights is being violated. Period.

[CheskiChips]

I expect them not to be self absorbed(minimizing everyone else and inflating themselves and their needs and concerns) greedy(taking more and more land that isn't theirs when they have availibe land that can be used.) bigoted(putting one people above all others) assholes( all of the previous reasons) and given the past 60 years that's too much. I expect them to treat the rightful owners of palestine with respect and work toward a future where all residents of palestine can live and prosper there in equality.

That's the Israeli attitude...probably not going to change.

thats closer to tranliteration than translation.

It's neither. It is however, a joke.

Basically it can all be summed up by this translation.
'Justice' translated to 'התפשר' which translates to ' هيمنة'
And in reverse...
' توصل الى تفاهم' translates to 'שמד' which translates as 'Peace in the Middle East'

'Justice' --> התפשר ("Compromise") -->هيمنة ("Dominance")
توصل الى تفاهم ("Compromise") --> שמד ("Religious Persecution") --> 'Peace in the Middle East'

[pjdude1219]

That's the Israeli attitude...probably not going to change. Probably not but just because the right thing is impossible i9s no reason not to try and achieve it.

[S.A.M.]

That's the Israeli attitude...probably not going to change.

It will, simply because they have turned into a society where violence is acceptable. That kind of attitude doesn't take you very far. Collectively, they will change how Jews are viewed by others [from victim to aggressor] and themselves in a way that will put them at odds, not only with the very polite and thoughtful Arab societies that surround them but also a world getting increasingly diverse and well connected. Their approach is anachronistic to any person who lives in a mixed society and considers all humans as equal.

Here is an example of what they face

Bi'lin Habibati (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WynTOY04Ac8)

[Fukushi]

What would happen if all the people talking about it on the internet, would come out of their cave, get together and actually protest on the streets about it?

[S.A.M.]

Depends on where. If in Bilin they may end up with a gas grenade through their skull. (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3552749,00.html)

[spidergoat]

What would happen if all the people talking about it on the internet, would come out of their cave, get together and actually protest on the streets about it?

nothing

[S.A.M.]

Who cares what Cheski translated? The issue is refugee land being sold off by Israelis. Start a new thread in linguistics

[quadraphonics]

The issue is refugee land being sold off by Israelis.

No, it's being sold by Israel (to Israelis). The issue would be very much different, if this were something being done by some individual "Israelis."

[StrawDog]

No, it's being sold by Israel (to Israelis). The issue would be very much different, if this were something being done by some individual "Israelis."
So under these circumstances, the LAW does not apply?

[quadraphonics]

So under these circumstances, the LAW does not apply?

Huh?

[mike47]

Israel's history is full of injustice and full of killings the innocent people .

[Buffalo Roam]

Israel's history is full of injustice and full of killings the innocent people .

And what of the History of the Arabs in Palestine, and Arab States, it is a history full of injustice and killings of innocent people, the Jews and their own fellow Arabs.

[mike47]

And what of the History of the Arabs in Palestine, and Arab States, it is a history full of injustice and killings of innocent people, the Jews and their own fellow Arabs.

Déjà vu indeed !.
And indeed !.
What about the atrocities of the US and their puppets NATO ?.
Read history as it is its own witness !.
:shrug::shrug: .

[CptBork]

What do you want Israel to do, they have a population exploding and nowhere to put their citizens. "Property encroachment" is the result of being unable to find housing for anyone as a result of the building freeze implemented by the US Government. When the population grows and building new housing is outlawed what are Israelis to do? They'd build new cities, but it's not permitted...so they simply expand their present cities.

That's a major load of podunk right there. Israel's population is suddenly exploding and they have nowhere to go? Then what's all this talk about a demographic problem and how not enough jews are being born? I mean, you could have tried to either deny this report or provide a different explanation and context, or you could have passed it off as a minor incident and not a major factor in the big scheme of things, citing positive developments as a contrast. But no. You decided to tie this thing in to a settlement freeze, which is utterly ridiculous and embarasses your cause more than it helps.

Firstly, the report says the settlers were pushing their herds out to the very edges of their fields and beyond. The wording implies that they had plenty of room for their sheep to graze on their own lands, but instead they chose to push them out as far as possible, to be utter righteous pricks to their neighbours. You didn't challenge this claim, you tried to justify it. Gee, where have I heard people trying to come up with intelligent and systematic justifications for the crimes of their countrymen before?

Secondly, if a population bursting at the seams is a valid excuse for invading and then stealing someone else's land and property, why is this not a valid excuse for the Palestinians? You think you guys are crammed in tight? I believe Gaza is now the most densely populated region on the entire planet.

Thirdly, Israel has a (comparatively) vast and mostly unused region in its southern underbelly, called the Negev. As I understand it, all kinds of infrastructure projects are currently underway to make the region more habitable and profitable for future generations. Once all the tree planting and water desalinating kicks into gear, the whole region will be like a lush oasis in the desert. So if there's a lack of room to move, why not focus on that instead of kicking a bunch of Palestinian farmers off land their families have owned and worked for generations? And in any case, screw the Negev. There's lots of unused and unsettled land up in the northern parts around the Golan. "We need more land" just isn't a valid excuse, that's the kind of thinking which will isolate and destroy your country.

[CheskiChips]

That's a major load of podunk right there. Israel's population is suddenly exploding and they have nowhere to go? Then what's all this talk about a demographic problem and how not enough jews are being born? I mean, you could have tried to either deny this report or provide a different explanation and context, or you could have passed it off as a minor incident and not a major factor in the big scheme of things, citing positive developments as a contrast. But no. You decided to tie this thing in to a settlement freeze, which is utterly ridiculous and embarasses your cause more than it helps.

Orthodox families have 8-10 kids...and the birthrate of Israel is still higher than the majority (if not all) of 1st world countries.


Firstly, the report says the settlers were pushing their herds out to the very edges of their fields and beyond. The wording implies that they had plenty of room for their sheep to graze on their own lands, but instead they chose to push them out as far as possible, to be utter righteous pricks to their neighbours. You didn't challenge this claim, you tried to justify it. Gee, where have I heard people trying to come up with intelligent and systematic justifications for the crimes of their countrymen before?

I don't know anything about this, it seems like an isolated incident with factors currently unknown. So most likely you don't know anything about it either.


Secondly, if a population bursting at the seams is a valid excuse for invading and then stealing someone else's land and property, why is this not a valid excuse for the Palestinians? You think you guys are crammed in tight? I believe Gaza is now the most densely populated region on the entire planet.

Probably because no one agrees on the boundaries in the first place.


Thirdly, Israel has a (comparatively) vast and mostly unused region in its southern underbelly, called the Negev. As I understand it, all kinds of infrastructure projects are currently underway to make the region more habitable and profitable for future generations. Once all the tree planting and water desalinating kicks into gear, the whole region will be like a lush oasis in the desert. So if there's a lack of room to move, why not focus on that instead of kicking a bunch of Palestinian farmers off land their families have owned and worked for generations? And in any case, screw the Negev. There's lots of unused and unsettled land up in the northern parts around the Golan. "We need more land" just isn't a valid excuse, that's the kind of thinking which will isolate and destroy your country.

The Negev has no water resources. If war were to occur everyone there would be outside of Israel's capability of defense. It's militarily, economic, and socially bad idea to colonize the Negev.


------------

I've got a solution. Iran owes Jews 600billion dollars from illegal confiscations. That's on par with the HIGHEST claims of Gazan value...so high they're absurd. In any case...why doesn't Iran take every single person in GAZA to the Jewish confiscations...and Iraq, which owes 20billion will pay for transport. And then Egypt will pay to feed them on the way with their 15billion. Then Morocco and other northern African countries could pay their luxuries with their confiscated values. Sound reasonable? Why not? The Mizrachi live in poverty today thanks to those lovely countries.

[StrawDog]

The Mizrachi live in poverty today thanks to those lovely countries.
The Palestinians have lived in poverty for 60 years and counting, thanks to those Ashkenazim and Sephardim that stole their land.

[CheskiChips]

The Palestinians have lived in poverty for 60 years and counting, thanks to those Ashkenazim and Sephardim that stole their land.

Mizrach just means "East". So it basically means anyone East of Israel...which is Iraq, Iran, etc etc. Now consider their land was confiscated pre-1948...now analyze the chronology of your statement again and it just so happens you made a statement in support of myself!

[StrawDog]

Mizrach just means "East". So it basically means anyone East of Israel...which is Iraq, Iran, etc etc. Now consider their land was confiscated pre-1948...now analyze the chronology of your statement again and it just so happens you made a statement in support of myself!
Also meaning "Easteners" ie. Middle Eastern, ie. Palestinian Jews. I have no issue with Mizrahim, who have some kind of link to the land. Its the foreigners (East Europeans) who have caused the problems.

[CheskiChips]

Since you don't get it.


I've got a solution. Iran owes Jews 600billion dollars from illegal confiscations. That's on par with the HIGHEST claims of Gazan value...so high they're absurd. In any case...why doesn't Iran take every single person in GAZA to the Jewish confiscations...and Iraq, which owes 20billion will pay for transport. And then Egypt will pay to feed them on the way with their 15billion. Then Morocco and other northern African countries could pay their luxuries with their confiscated values. Sound reasonable? Why not? The Mizrachi live in poverty today thanks to those lovely countries.

The Mizrachi lived in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen etc etc...those are the people who had over $650 billion stolen from them.

Then you said...

The Palestinians have lived in poverty for 60 years and counting, thanks to those Ashkenazim and Sephardim that stole their land.

The Mizrachim were the first settlers of the land and outnumber Ashkenazim.

----------------------
The Jews had property confiscated in the post WWII era due to NAZI propaganda reaching the Arab world...now let's look at the Country of Origin of Israel.


Mizrahi Jews, and Sephardic Jews 49.4%
Ashkenazi Jews 47.6%
---
European & Former Soviet Union 20.9%
Morocco 15.2%
Poland 8.3%
Iraq 7.7%
Romania 7.6%
Yemen 4.9%
Iran 4.0%
Algeria/Tunisia 3.8%
...
..
.
The Arabs kicked people out of their lands and stole their money... so they moved to Israel. Why don't those countries give back the assets to the Palestinians (Their brethren) to make all well in the land?

Not to mention the others had pretty compelling reasons to flee as well...

[WillNever]

QUERY: What do you propose happens to the Irsraeli families who bought this formerly refugee land? Your automatic reaction might be "kick them off so that the Palestinian refugees can come back." But then you aren't thinking of the ramicifactions this has for individual Jewish people, which aren't fair.

Firstly, if the law somehow prohibits palestinians from purchasing the land, then it's a bad law. However, if I'm not mistaken, Jewish people have to pay for that property. And many if not most Jewish people probably have no idea about these weird laws. Kicking them off without due compensation would be immoral. They have lives and children too. Telling them to hit the road makes you no better than anyone else, and it is not the fault of recently born Israelis that they were born on the benefitting side. If you want someone to blame, blame the Israeli government instead of blaming (and wanting to punish) the Israeli people who just want to live their lives.

People need to stop looking this in terms of ethnic affiliation. You have to see with better eyes than that, at the individuals who your proposals are hurting.

[S.A.M.]

These Jewish people are moving from Russia, Europe and the US to occupy Palestinian lands for a 2000 year old mythology. If you chase rainbows for pots of gold, you shouldn't be surprised if all you get is blisters on your feet.

Meanwhile:

Despite the video footage and the international public outcry it generated, the Judea and Samaria police are closing the case of a severe beating of three Palestinians by masked settlers, without having managed to produce even a single suspect, according to the complete investigation file obtained by Haaretz.

The beating, which was filmed by an eyewitness, took place on June 8, 2008 in a field near the settlement of Sussia. Tamam Nawaja, 57, her husband Khalil, 70, and their relative Amran were herding their flocks near their encampment, some three kilometers from Sussia. Three young men, residents of the area, two of them masked, approached them and requested that they leave. When they refused, the settlers walked away.

About half an hour later, four masked men came down from a nearby mountain, holding clubs, and began beating the Palestinians. Another family member who was nearby called for help. Soldiers who arrived in a military vehicle gave the victims first aid, and an ambulance took Tamam Nawaja to the Soroka University Hospital in Beer Sheva. The other injured Palestinians were taken to a hospital in Hebron.
Advertisement
The incident was filmed by a relative of Tamam, who had a camera given to her by the B'Tselem human rights group as part of their camera distribution project, in which cameras are handed out to Palestinians living in high-conflict areas. The video shows one settler approaching the area on a tractor, followed by the four masked men. The graphic footage, which shows the settlers swing their clubs into the shepherds, was transmitted in Israel and around the world and generated furious condemnation.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109015.html


"Judea" and "Samaria" being the illegally occupied West Bank. Assholes.



Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcmjR-cVu8w

[pjdude1219]

QUERY: What do you propose happens to the Irsraeli families who bought this formerly refugee land? Your automatic reaction might be "kick them off so that the Palestinian refugees can come back." But then you aren't thinking of the ramicifactions this has for individual Jewish people, which aren't fair.

Firstly, if the law somehow prohibits palestinians from purchasing the land, then it's a bad law. However, if I'm not mistaken, Jewish people have to pay for that property. And many if not most Jewish people probably have no idea about these weird laws. Kicking them off without due compensation would be immoral. They have lives and children too. Telling them to hit the road makes you no better than anyone else, and it is not the fault of recently born Israelis that they were born on the benefitting side. If you want someone to blame, blame the Israeli government instead of blaming (and wanting to punish) the Israeli people who just want to live their lives.

People need to stop looking this in terms of ethnic affiliation. You have to see with better eyes than that, at the individuals who your proposals are hurting.

but there is legal precedent for taking things from people when it was gained illegally. Take the art work returned to the jews after the nazis stole it. If they want compensation let the Israeli government compensate them but the people it was stolen from shouldn't have to pay to get their own fucking land back.



The people currently residing on it who gained it illegally don't matter more than those it was stolen from.

[pjdude1219]

Since you don't get it.



The Mizrachi lived in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Yemen etc etc...those are the people who had over $650 billion stolen from them.

Then you said...


The Mizrachim were the first settlers of the land and outnumber Ashkenazim.

----------------------
The Jews had property confiscated in the post WWII era due to NAZI propaganda reaching the Arab world...now let's look at the Country of Origin of Israel.


Mizrahi Jews, and Sephardic Jews 49.4%
Ashkenazi Jews 47.6%
---
European & Former Soviet Union 20.9%
Morocco 15.2%
Poland 8.3%
Iraq 7.7%
Romania 7.6%
Yemen 4.9%
Iran 4.0%
Algeria/Tunisia 3.8%
...
..
.
The Arabs kicked people out of their lands and stole their money... so they moved to Israel. Why don't those countries give back the assets to the Palestinians (Their brethren) to make all well in the land?

Not to mention the others had pretty compelling reasons to flee as well...
Um the arabs only kicked out the jews AFTER the jews expelled the arabs. and to make all well would be the palestinians getting palestine back.

[S.A.M.]

but there is legal precedent for taking things from people when it was gained illegally. Take the art work returned to the jews after the nazis stole it. If they want compensation let the Israeli government compensate them but the people it was stolen from shouldn't have to pay to get their own fucking land back.



The people currently residing on it who gained it illegally don't matter more than those it was stolen from.

I also read that Jews are trying to get "compensation" for the supposed billions they had in Arab lands. While living in a land they stole. :rolleyes:

Breaking News!!



Earlier this week the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions movement got a big break when Amnesty International announced that it was withdrawing from any sponsorship of Leonard Cohen’s concert in Tel Aviv next month. Today brings another.The amazing LA Times op-ed page breaks new ground in the mainstream media by running "Boycott Israel," an eloquent argument in favor of BDS from an Israeli, Neve Gordon. (Maybe some day LAT will allow Americans to weigh in on this issue?).

The piece suggests that Gordon would be for one state, because it already is one virtually, but for the "ideological" attachment of Israelis to the Jewish state.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-gordon20-2009aug20,0,6144555,print.story

[Challenger78]

QUERY: What do you propose happens to the Irsraeli families who bought this formerly refugee land? Your automatic reaction might be "kick them off so that the Palestinian refugees can come back." But then you aren't thinking of the ramicifactions this has for individual Jewish people, which aren't fair.

Firstly, if the law somehow prohibits palestinians from purchasing the land, then it's a bad law. However, if I'm not mistaken, Jewish people have to pay for that property. And many if not most Jewish people probably have no idea about these weird laws. Kicking them off without due compensation would be immoral. They have lives and children too. Telling them to hit the road makes you no better than anyone else, and it is not the fault of recently born Israelis that they were born on the benefitting side. If you want someone to blame, blame the Israeli government instead of blaming (and wanting to punish) the Israeli people who just want to live their lives.

People need to stop looking this in terms of ethnic affiliation. You have to see with better eyes than that, at the individuals who your proposals are hurting.

The Israelis who move into those houses know the full cost of what they paid for, and it is not in dollars. Are you serious ? Who would pay for something and not know where it is located, and what had been done to acquire it ?

and it is not the fault of recently born Israelis that they were born on the benefitting side.


We had that argument too, On the case of Aboriginals, and you know what ? We still apologized. Because even though it is not our fault, we are still benefiting from the crimes that white forefathers committed. Do I hear an apology from the Israel government, or demands for one from the population ? No.

[StrawDog]

Breaking News!!
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-gordon20-2009aug20,0,6144555,print.story
Holy moly. :m:

[mike47]

Palestine is for the Arab Palestinians and any other talk is pure non sense .

[WillNever]

No one is "owed" an apology from people who weren't actually the ones to harm them, and the fact of the matter is that most Israelis have never done anything to harm a Palestinian person. It's the government you have to blame, not the people at large. The only thing you can blame most Israeli people for is for supporting illegal actions of their government -- but not simply for living on land. Countries around the world were built this way, so I honestly don't care about "we as a people lived here first" arguments. Unless you are a first generation palestinian who was kicked off the land, then you aren't owed anything. The palestinians who were born after that period have no claim to it, pure and simple. The whole of Egypt was conquered by foreignborn muslims who decided to take over and occupy the place. You think that if some ancient Eygptians who followed the old gods were to emerge and say they wanted their country back... that the muslims in Egypt would actually hand it over? The answer is no, because today's muslims weren't the ones who tore the place up. They believe (and are correct) that the land is now theirs.

It doesn't matter if the Israeli government is the one to compensate the Israelis for that land or if it's the Palestinians who want that land. The point is that someone has to compensate them. Those families don't deserve to be deprived of their wealth and their way of life either. Taking it away from them won't bring an end to suffering. It would merely be a transferrance of suffering onto other people who, in most cases, didn't do anything bad. That is not a noble aspiration, and that is why the Israelis are there to stay.

Also, about world world II: Actual concentration camp victims who SURVIVED were paid reparations. There were no reparations paid to surviving relatives of Holocaust victims, in most cases. Usually, what the survivors received was a stipend. And some Holocaust victims (Jewish or not) were able to recover stolen artwork -- and only if it was stolen, not purchased. Most of the artwork recovered was held in museums owned by the state, not by private citizens.

[S.A.M.]

No one is "owed" an apology from people who weren't actually the ones to harm them, and the fact of the matter is that most Israelis have never done anything to harm a Palestinian person. .

Are you kidding me? They all go into the IDF, they all occupy land they know belongs to Palestinians and most of them will accept any frigging Jew from around the world while Palestinians are kicked out of their homes.

They are all complicit in millions of stories like this:

A month ago, there was loud banging on their door around 1:00 am. Frightened, Rania asked who it was. They said they were Israeli soldiers. Rania knew they were there to arrest Sharif, though neither of them knew why. This is standard operating procedure for Israeli army arrest operations—entering homes in the dead of night when people are at their most psychologically and physically vulnerable. She had no choice but to open the door, knowing it would be blown up or knocked down if she refused. They asked if her husband was home. She said no. They asked if they could come in and make sure. Again, she had no choice but to allow them.



When they found Sharif hiding in the bedroom, they gave a loud order, and twenty more armed soldiers stormed in. They beat Sharif in front of his wife and son, called Rania a lying sharmouta (whore) while holding a gun to her head, and took Sharif away. He’s been charged with car theft in Israel , an absurd charge. He’s never been to Israel , though he had recently been given a permit to work in Israel . Rania said to me, “It is very difficult for a Palestinian to get a permit to work in Israel . Why would they give him a permit if they thought he was stealing cars?”

An Israeli friend of mine guesses it might be to pad their statistics on cracking down on car theft, or they might be trying to recruit him as a spy—offering to let him go if he will inform on his neighbors or extended family members. This is one of the most devastating tactics an occupier has for tearing the fabric of a society apart, sowing suspicion and division between neighbors and family members. How can a man be forced to choose between lying about his neighbors and family members, or spending a year away from his wife, son, and soon new daughter, knowing that without his support, they may not have enough to live on? He may be in prison himself because another man chose to falsely inform on him rather than pay this terrible price.

I visited Rania in her brother-in-law’s home in Tulkarem as soon as I learned about the situation. She can’t stay in her own home because she’s too scared to be alone. She can’t sleep because every time she closes her eyes she sees Israeli soldiers. Every time she hears a car outside she thinks it’s an Israeli army Jeep.

Because she and her husband have been putting most of their savings into their new home, she was left with only about a month’s budget when her husband was taken. She has been trying hard to get a job, but unemployment is bad in the West Bank even for people who don’t have a small child and aren’t five months pregnant.

She’s spent much of the past month crying. She says the worst is when Karim walks to the front door (where he’s used to seeing his father burst in and scoop him up and hug him after work) and says, “Baba?” (Daddy?) He doesn’t seem to be scarred by the violence he witnessed. His first birthday happened to be the day I visited Rania (Sharif had planned a nice party and to buy him a little car he could scoot around in)—he’s too young to understand what’s going on. He’s actually one of the happiest toddlers I’ve ever spent time with. But when he asks several times a day where his Baba is, Rania says quietly, “Baba fi sijin, habibi.” (Daddy’s in prison, sweetie.) It’s a hard thing to witness.

http://mondoweiss.net/2009/08/an-arrest-on-the-west-bank.html#more-8482

They are all occupiers.

And what is the sin of these Palestinians? They all live in their own homes or wish to, where the Jews base their mythological state.

[StrawDog]

QUERY: What do you propose happens to the Irsraeli families who bought this formerly refugee land? Your automatic reaction might be "kick them off so that the Palestinian refugees can come back." But then you aren't thinking of the ramicifactions this has for individual Jewish people, which aren't fair.
Before making that leap, the Israeli gov should not be selling land that does not belong to them.
Having made that leap, the Israeli gov would have to reimburse and compensate its citizens for having sold them property illegally.

Firstly, if the law somehow prohibits palestinians from purchasing the land, then it's a bad law. However, if I'm not mistaken, Jewish people have to pay for that property.
The binding law, as articulated in the documentation, should remain in place until a final peace deal is negotiated or achieved, obviously with agreement by both parties.
And many if not most Jewish people probably have no idea about these weird laws. Kicking them off without due compensation would be immoral. They have lives and children too. Telling them to hit the road makes you no better than anyone else, and it is not the fault of recently born Israelis that they were born on the benefitting side. If you want someone to blame, blame the Israeli government instead of blaming (and wanting to punish) the Israeli people who just want to live their lives.
Yes, of course.

People need to stop looking this in terms of ethnic affiliation. You have to see with better eyes than that, at the individuals who your proposals are hurting.
Israel is ALL about ethnic and religious affiliation. Thus breaking laws on behalf of Jews is not acceptable.

[WillNever]

Are you kidding me? They all go into the IDF, they all occupy land they know belongs to Palestinians and most of them will accept any frigging Jew from around the world while Palestinians are kicked out of their homes.

They are all complicit in millions of stories like this:



They are all occupiers.

And what is the sin of these Palestinians? They all live in their own homes or wish to, where the Jews base their mythological state.

Blowing themselves up in Jewish supermarkets is a sin. Oh wait.. not all of them do that. Well, the same holds true for the Jews you are describing. You can name countless stories all you want, but what are you going to do, prosecute every Jew until you get everyone who did it? Even if most act that way, the bottom line is that a ton probably do not... and condoning a resolution that punishes even a *few* innocents for things they didn't do would mean that you support some pretty horrible ideals. Punishing everyone for something you don't like is barbaric and you would object if it were happening to the Palestinians.

Anyone who entertains such a double-dealing mentality probably does not side with the Palestinians on moral or legal grounds... but instead on grounds that are based on (or influenced by) their ethnicity and/or culture.

[S.A.M.]

Blowing themselves up in Jewish supermarkets is a sin. Oh wait.. not all of them do that. Well, the same holds true for the Jews you are describing. You can name countless stories all you want, but what are you going to do, prosecute every Jew until you get everyone who did it? Even if most act that way, the bottom line is that a ton probably do not... and condoning a resolution that punishes even a *few* innocents for things they didn't do would mean that you support some pretty horrible ideals. Punishing everyone for something you don't like is barbaric and you would object if it were happening to the Palestinians.

Anyone who entertains such a double-dealing mentality probably does not side with the Palestinians on moral or legal grounds... but instead on grounds that are based on (or influenced by) their ethnicity and/or culture.

There is a vast difference between you being shot in your home by a robber and you shooting the robber in your own home. The one is a crime, the other self defence. I dare anyone confronted by a killer in their own home to not defend themselves. The Jews should stick their mythology where the sun don't shine and join the rest of the world in the current century.

[Buffalo Roam]

Um the arabs only kicked out the jews AFTER the jews expelled the arabs. and to make all well would be the palestinians getting palestine back.


So did that make it legal? did that even make it moral? and guess what, U.N. 141 doesn't mention Palestinians, it applies to all refugees, even the right of return or reimbursement for land lost that belonged to the Jews.

So, until the Jews are paid for, or given the right of return to their lands, it is a even trade, now the most interesting thing about the who deal is that the Jews took in the refugees from all the Arab lands and integrated them into their society, what did the Arabs do?

Shit all over their Arab Palestinian brethren, there are no refugee camps in Israel for displaced Jews from Arab Countries, but every Arab country has refugee camps for displaced Arabs from the Palestine.

The Arab countries took over 4 times as much Jewish land and property as there is in all of Israel, and still can't find a way to settle the Arabs of Palestine into that land, or integrate then into their societies, yes, so sad, to bad, it is the Arabs and Fellow Muslims who are the ones who have screwed the Arabs of Palestine, even today Egypt still blockades the border of Gaza and strictly limits access from Gaza into Egypt, Jordan does the same, and Jordan is the homeland of the Palestinians.

[S.A.M.]

So did that make it legal?

If Americans feel that Jews are undermining national security and kick them out, is it legal?

What if they do it to the Somalis (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1842616.stm)?

Is it legal?

[WillNever]

There is a vast difference between you being shot in your home by a robber and you shooting the robber in your own home. The one is a crime, the other self defence. I dare anyone confronted by a killer in their own home to not defend themselves. The Jews should stick their mythology where the sun don't shine and join the rest of the world in the current century.

What are you basing your perceptions on exactly..? The normal, everday Jews who are buying property are not "killers." That's just dehumanizing crappola, and anyone who would believe that crappola -- and then use it an excuse to kill others -- is dangerously deluded. Blowing yourself up in a supermarket to kill a whole bunch of innocent people (including children) is not "self defense."

And as I said before, the only Palestinians who have any claim to any property are the ones who owned it in their lifetime, not their relatives or their future generations.

[S.A.M.]

What are you basing your perceptions on exactly..? The normal, everday Jews who are buying property are not "killers." That's just dehumanizing crappola, and anyone who would believe that crappola -- and then use it an excuse to kill others -- is dangerously deluded. Blowing yourself up in a supermarket to kill a whole bunch of innocent people (including children) is not "self defense."



The "normal" everyday Jews who are buying property are moving from New York to make olia in internationally recognised occupied lands. They are signing up for the IDF to kill Palestinians who defend themselves against this encroachment by croaking that they have an ideological right to dispossess Palestinians because mythology told them so [scientifically, there is no evidence supporting any of their mythology]

The dehumanising is not mine, its of those Jews who think this "right" is justified. Its the same if some guy broke into my house and shot me because he heard voices in his head telling him my house was actually his. And then complained that I was unjust for shooting back.

And as I said before, the only Palestinians who have any claim to any property are the ones who owned it in their lifetime, not their relatives or their future generations.[

Then you should ask yourself why you hold different standards for Jews making olia to "buy" land stolen by other Jews who think they have a mythological ancestral right to it.

[WillNever]

Most Jews haven't shot anybody in their lives. Clearly, the only way you can substantiate the indiscriminatory killing of Jews is by thinking of them as a group of single-minded people who collectively carry out every single negative action. That's what dehumanization is: it's a shift away from thinking of someone as an individual human being and instead as part of a group of nameless "enemies." Meanwhile, deep down inside, as a fellow human being, you know that most individual Jews, and their kids, haven't done anything to deserve such deaths. Try to divorce yourself from seeing people in terms of these groups and religions: "The Jews." "The Palestinians." You will find that doing so frees your mind a great deal.

People are people,and they behave generally the same way given the same set of circumstances, and Palestinians are no exception to that rule. I think it's safe to say that anybody who makes a claim to a land on religious grounds is thinking in mythological terms, including any muslims. Nature didn't design any part of the world for a certain group of people, and scientifically speaking, ALL groups at one point originated in Africa.

[S.A.M.]

Since you avoided my points, just answer this:

Why do you hold different standards for Jews "buying" land stolen by other Jews who believe they have a mythological ancestral right to it?

Also, do you think that being put in bantustans under a system of racial apartheid over a period of 600 years lost native South Africans the right of return to their homes? Was the world wrong to demand that apartheid be ended and the blacks permitted to come home? Should the blacks have just been absorbed by other black countries around them?

Do you believe white South Africans had a right to a demographic that was white and Caucasian rather than black and African because they wanted it to be so?

[WillNever]

You are just ignoring my points too, SAM. This topic isn't about South Africa. Keep it that way. But since you asked, I don't think anyone has the right to enforce that only one race live in a country, when that race, even though once foreign to it already exists there. White South Africans did (and still do) have as much a right as black South Africans to live in South Africa, as citizens. After all, many were born there, just like black South Africans were. Them being the descendants of foreign colonists doesn't take away from that, because they are not responsible for the crimes of their forefathers.

To your question on Jews, I don't hold them to a different standard. But most Jews in Israel were BORN in Israel and kicking them out of the country and land of their birth is immoral. That's something the Palestinians will just need to deal with, peacefully.

[S.A.M.]

You are just ignoring my points too, SAM. This topic isn't about South Africa. Keep it that way. But since you asked, I don't think anyone has the right to enforce that only one race live in a country, when that race, even though once foreign to it already exists there. White South Africans did (and still do) have as much a right as black South Africans to live in South Africa, as citizens. After all, many were born there, just like black South Africans were. Them being the descendants of foreign colonists doesn't take away from that, because they are not responsible for the crimes of their forefathers.

So where would you put black South Africans forced into bantustans against their will when for 600 years their land has changed many hands and ended up with descendents of white settlers and they had no control over any of it? How would you apply this to the forced occupation of Palestinians by Jews who to-date are forcibly evicting Palestinians from their ancestral homes to fulfill a mythological belief?

[Buffalo Roam]

War is hell, if your going to start one, Win, it is the only justification.

[S.A.M.]

War is hell, if your going to start one, Win, it is the only justification.

So you also disagree with the world decision to back the South Africans forced into bantustans? You think the white South Africans "won" themselves a white state?

[WillNever]

I'm not seeing a point here, SAM. Only questions. If you have a point to make, then state it.

[S.A.M.]

I'm not seeing a point here, SAM. Only questions. If you have a point to make, then state it.

Yeah you said:

And as I said before, the only Palestinians who have any claim to any property are the ones who owned it in their lifetime, not their relatives or their future generations

Which is why I asked you about 600 years of apartheid vs 60 years of Palestinian dispossession.

Where would YOU put native black South Africans if not in bantustans?

Where would YOU put Palestinian refugees who were evicted [and are being evicted right now (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32259294)] by Jews "buying" their land from other Jews who stole it?

What is your solution to the refugees plight and how would you have resolved the situation of those forced into batustans?

[WillNever]

As I said before, if there are people living there, then kicking them from THEIR homes would be immoral. The government can monetarily compensate the ones who actually stood to lose property at the time the home was lost and then they can find new homes. There is room to go around. But not their relatives. Not their future generations. They didn't lose anything.

It is sad that they lost their homes and have only to receive money for it, but visiting that sadness onto other people (which is what relocating current residents would do) does not end the sadness. It just transfers it to people who you don't happen to side with, which is a selfish resolution.

[S.A.M.]

Like I said, if there are people living there, then kicking them from THEIR homes would be immoral. The government can compensate the ones who actually stood to lose property at the time the home was lost and then they can find new homes. But not their relatives. Not their future generations. They didn't lose anything. And there is plenty of room in South Africa to go around.

It is sad that they lost their homes but visiting that sadness onto other people (which is what relocating current residents would do) does not end the sadness. It just transfers it to people who you don't happen to side with, which is a selfish resolution.

There may be plenty of land in South Africa, but it was all owned by whites since for 600 years, they did not permit blacks the dignity of recognising them as humans. So what land would you give to the blacks who owned none of it in their lifetime through no fault of their own?

Also land is a premium in Palestine. The Jews immigrate by the millions and occupy Palestinian homes then fill them with civilian shields even though they know Palestinians were living there [none of it is ancient history] and will fight to return home. Where would you put refugees who want to return to their land? Do they have any rights?

[WillNever]

I'm not sure what you mean by "blacks who didn't own it in their lifetime through no fault of their own." Are you trying to suggest that it is the fault of people today that they didn't own anything? A lot of people in the USA don't own a home when they turn 18 either. We don't give them other people's homes, though.

Any Palestinians who kill civilians are common murderers and are not worthy of getting their homes back.

[S.A.M.]

I'm not sure what you mean by "blacks who didn't own it in their lifetime through no fault of their own." Are you trying to suggest that it is the fault of people today that they didn't own anything? A lot of people in the USA don't own a home when they turn 18 either. We don't give them other people's homes, though.

Now you're being evasive. Blacks were transferred to bantustans and could not own land which whites stole and then sold to successive generations of whites only. Do the dispossessed black nation of South Africans have any rights to the land stolen from them? Or should they have been kept in the bantustans?

Any Palestinians who kill civilians are common murderers and are not worthy of getting their homes back.
What about all the Jews who have been killing for Palestinian land? Can we take away their homes and return them to Palestinians who did not kill anyone?

[WillNever]

Now you're being evasive. Blacks were transferred to bantustans and could not own land which whites stole and then sold to successive generations of whites only. Do the dispossessed black nation of South Africans have any rights to the land stolen from them? Or should they have been kept in the bantustans?

The answer is no, they have no right. What have they (today's whites) done to deserve being kicked out of their own homes? We know that blacks didn't deserve being removed either. But forcing your suffering on innocents is not acceptable, sorry.

What about all the Jews who have been killing for Palestinian land? Can we take away their homes and return them to Palestinians who did not kill anyone?

*Anybody* who killed somebody and then took over a home should be punished and return the home, and that includes both Jews and Palestinians. Most jews have not killed one person, however.

[S.A.M.]

The answer is no, they have no right. What have they (today's whites) done to deserve being kicked out of their own homes? We know that blacks didn't deserve being removed either. But forcing your suffering on innocents is not acceptable, sorry.

Hmm so if a dictator takes over a country and declares all land as his realm and his descendents continue the dictatorship, then the people of the country have no rights?



*Anybody* who killed somebody and then took over a home should be punished and return the home, and that includes both Jews and Palestinians. Most jews have not killed one person, however.

All of them are occupiers and should be sent home, like the British in India after 125 years. They can use the European system of determining home for second generation immigrants since most of them came from there.

[WillNever]

Occupiers how? Most Jews in Israel were born there and that has been there home. You have a real complex with wanting people to inherit the crimes of their parents. So why should your religion supercede the actual place that you were born in, when determining your home?

[S.A.M.]

Occupiers how? Most Jews in Israel were born there and that has been there home.

Most second generation immigrants in Europe are not considered automatic citizens of the state. Thats where the most Israeli Jews came from, so they should not be surprised.

You have a real complex with wanting people to inherit the crimes of their parents. So why should your religion supercede the actual place that you were born in, when determining your home?

I have a real complex with people living off their parents crimes and protesting their innocence.

[WillNever]

Most Israeli Jews come from Israel, SAM. Their parents come from Europe.

I have a real complex with people living off their parents crimes and protesting their innocence.

But most of them are innocent. Most haven't hurt anyone. Them benefitting from bad things that their parents did doesn't change that, nor does it warrant ruining their own life (and their families' lives) by going on some guilt trip.

[S.A.M.]

Most Israeli Jews come from Israel, SAM. Their parents come from Europe.

But most of them are innocent. Most haven't hurt anyone. Them benefitting from bad things that their parents did doesn't change that, nor does it warrant ruining their own life (and their families' lives) by going on some guilt trip.

Hey if my father killed somone and left me everything they owned, I think the owners or their descendents have a right to kick my butt and take it back. Even if it stolen property he bought from someone else. The Jews certainly seem to think so, since they lay claim to everything the Nazis stole from their grandparents. The descendents of German Nazis are still paying billions to grandchildren of Holocaust victims.

[WillNever]

The owners would have that right, but the descendants really wouldn't. They definitely don't have a right to hurt you or kill you, either.

The descendents of German Nazis are still paying billions to grandchildren of Holocaust victims.

Nay, those who apply for reparations in Germany receive a stipend from the government, and you have to prove that you are damaged in some way as a result of what happened. Usually a mental disorder. Most Germans are opposed to reparations, because they feel it burdens a generation of Germans who were never involved with the Holocaust. It is definitely not true that being a descendant of a Nazi means you need to send money to somebody though, lol.

[S.A.M.]

The Germans give the money to the Jews. Maybe there are many Jews who are not descended from the holocaust who also get it. Maybe there are many non-Nazi Germans whose descendents tax money goes into it. But Israel demands and gets the money, regardless of the innocence of present day Germans or the ethnic cleansing done by present day Jews. They also got back artwork that the Nazis stole and are now demanding the Arabs compensate them for their assets in Arab lands. So don't give me any crap about innocent Jews.

In fact, the Israelis squeeze more than they have a right to considering they already stole all the Palestinian land which the Europeans generously donated to them. Even the Germans are fed up

Germany Refuses to Negotiate with Israel over New Claims

The German government is refusing to negotiate with Israel over new compensation claims for Holocaust survivors. The dispute is causing tension between Israel and the Jewish Claims Conference -- which Germany says is its correct negotiating partner.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,523846,00.html

[WillNever]

Of course the Germans are fed up. The Third Reich is gone. There is no one who deserves to pay them. Reparations blow, and the only artwork they give to Jews are pieces that are held in state owned museums. Descendants of Nazis aren't required to pay anybody simply for being a Nazi descendant, however.

Anyone who thinks that they deserve reparations for events that they were not even alive to see is a nutcase who needs to get their head rewired, and that includes Jews and Palestinians alike. History sucks... but life goes on. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

Right, but if you take land and compensation for crimes against your grandparents, you also pay for crimes by them. Time for the Jews of Israel and their Zionist supporters to pony up their debts.

[WillNever]

What percentage of the Israeli population ardently seeks out German reparations..? I doubt that many do. Regardless of what they believe, they shouldn't get any reparations... and the only reparations that Palestinians should get are ones that don't deprive Jews of their homes.

And who are the Zionist supporters? I'm not Jewish but I recognize Israel's right to exist. I don't see how I could possibly owe money to Palestinians for that, however. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

Who cares? If they disagree with compensation, they can return everything to the Europeans including the gift of 51% of Palestine.

[pjdude1219]

No one is "owed" an apology from people who weren't actually the ones to harm them, and the fact of the matter is that most Israelis have never done anything to harm a Palestinian person. It's the government you have to blame, not the people at large. The only thing you can blame most Israeli people for is for supporting illegal actions of their government -- but not simply for living on land. Countries around the world were built this way, so I honestly don't care about "we as a people lived here first" arguments. Unless you are a first generation palestinian who was kicked off the land, then you aren't owed anything. The palestinians who were born after that period have no claim to it, pure and simple. The whole of Egypt was conquered by foreignborn muslims who decided to take over and occupy the place. You think that if some ancient Eygptians who followed the old gods were to emerge and say they wanted their country back... that the muslims in Egypt would actually hand it over? The answer is no, because today's muslims weren't the ones who tore the place up. They believe (and are correct) that the land is now theirs.

It doesn't matter if the Israeli government is the one to compensate the Israelis for that land or if it's the Palestinians who want that land. The point is that someone has to compensate them. Those families don't deserve to be deprived of their wealth and their way of life either. Taking it away from them won't bring an end to suffering. It would merely be a transferrance of suffering onto other people who, in most cases, didn't do anything bad. That is not a noble aspiration, and that is why the Israelis are there to stay.

Also, about world world II: Actual concentration camp victims who SURVIVED were paid reparations. There were no reparations paid to surviving relatives of Holocaust victims, in most cases. Usually, what the survivors received was a stipend. And some Holocaust victims (Jewish or not) were able to recover stolen artwork -- and only if it was stolen, not purchased. Most of the artwork recovered was held in museums owned by the state, not by private citizens.

I got into the same argument with eltric fetus just because justice is painful to those who have commited crimes and gained from them doesn't mean justice should be served.

[pjdude1219]

So did that make it legal? did that even make it moral? and guess what, U.N. 141 doesn't mention Palestinians, it applies to all refugees, even the right of return or reimbursement for land lost that belonged to the Jews. it wasn't a legal arguement. it was a cause and effect argument.

So, until the Jews are paid for, or given the right of return to their lands, it is a even trade, now the most interesting thing about the who deal is that the Jews took in the refugees from all the Arab lands and integrated them into their society, what did the Arabs do? and the third option?

Shit all over their Arab Palestinian brethren, there are no refugee camps in Israel for displaced Jews from Arab Countries, but every Arab country has refugee camps for displaced Arabs from the Palestine.

The Arab countries took over 4 times as much Jewish land and property as there is in all of Israel, and still can't find a way to settle the Arabs of Palestine into that land, or integrate then into their societies, yes, so sad, to bad, it is the Arabs and Fellow Muslims who are the ones who have screwed the Arabs of Palestine, even today Egypt still blockades the border of Gaza and strictly limits access from Gaza into Egypt, Jordan does the same, and Jordan is the homeland of the Palestinians.

What the arabs countries are willing to give the palestinians is irrelevant what matters is the 3 choices law gives them and you demand 2 be taken from them.

[pjdude1219]

What are you basing your perceptions on exactly..? The normal, everday Jews who are buying property are not "killers." That's just dehumanizing crappola, and anyone who would believe that crappola -- and then use it an excuse to kill others -- is dangerously deluded. Blowing yourself up in a supermarket to kill a whole bunch of innocent people (including children) is not "self defense."

And as I said before, the only Palestinians who have any claim to any property are the ones who owned it in their lifetime, not their relatives or their future generations.

and your wrong. Sorry we got away with it for this long we can't be touched is not a moral,legal,or rational argument. The palestinians still have a claim to it because guess what an illegal act cannot confer legitimacy.

[pjdude1219]

War is hell, if your going to start one, Win, it is the only justification.

So you support the jewish war of conquest in 48?

[pjdude1219]

Occupiers how? Most Jews in Israel were born there and that has been there home. You have a real complex with wanting people to inherit the crimes of their parents. So why should your religion supercede the actual place that you were born in, when determining your home?

you do not inherit the crime but you do inherit the responsbility to rectify the crime. International law gives refugess 3 choices settle in another country, gain compensation, and being allowed to return to their homes. That is there choice and no one is allowed to take that away from them which is what you want to do.

[pjdude1219]

Most Israeli Jews come from Israel, SAM. Their parents come from Europe. Irrelevant



But most of them are innocent. Most haven't hurt anyone. No they aren't innocewnt they have continued the crime of dening them basic rights. Them benefitting from bad things that their parents did doesn't change that, nor does it warrant ruining their own life (and their families' lives) by going on some guilt trip. It won't ruin them the even same would be willing to have the Israeli government pay for the movement not the person themselves.

[WillNever]

you do not inherit the crime but you do inherit the responsbility to rectify the crime.


Err, no you don't. These aren't the middle ages. You don't owe anybody *ANYTHING* for things your parents did. Your parents aren't you. You are an entirely different person.

[S.A.M.]

Err, no you don't. These aren't the middle ages. You don't owe anybody *ANYTHING* for things your parents did. Your parents aren't you. You are an entirely different person.

If you are living on occupied lands that are internationally recognised as occupied, you are still breaking international law if your parents are the ones who were the occupiers.

If you inherit stolen property from your parents it is still stolen property

Refugees don't lose their rights simply because the people who evicted them are dead

[WillNever]

Not all the land was stolen. A ton of it was abandoned when the Palestinians migrated after not accepting partition and became self-imposed refugees. As I said earlier, your proposal doesn't solve the underlying problem. It just solves the problem for only one side, while creating another group of refugees. I see no reason for that to happen.

[S.A.M.]

No one believes that hasbara anymore. Get with the real history
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxxMppPxXCw

http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?lang=english

Its very simple, if the Jews of Israel do not want to pay for the crimes of their parents, then they should give up stolen property.

[pjdude1219]

Err, no you don't. These aren't the middle ages. You don't owe anybody *ANYTHING* for things your parents did. Your parents aren't you. You are an entirely different person.

When your parents die and leave debt tell the bank that I'm sure they will listen. You are responsible for the unpayed debts(which an unrectified crime is) of your ancestors.

[pjdude1219]

Not all the land was stolen. A ton of it was abandoned when the Palestinians migrated after not accepting partition and became self-imposed refugees. As I said earlier, your proposal doesn't solve the underlying problem. It just solves the problem for only one side, while creating another group of refugees. I see no reason for that to happen.
It wasn't abandoned they had every intention of returning they just didn't want to stay in the area of the war of jewish conquest was going on.

[WillNever]

That did happen, SAM. Some were forcibly removed, some left of their own accord and were then turned away by their arab brothers in the neighboring states.

The only Palestinians who have claim to some property are those who were alive and present when they lost their home. That is the only case where it is justified to compensate the Jewish family who owns that home to allow the Palestinian owner to settle back in. However, that does not describe most Palestinians today, who were born afterward and never legally owned those homes in the first place. Their claim is purely based on mythos, not law.

[S.A.M.]

That did happen, SAM. Some were forcibly removed, some left of their own accord and were then turned away by their arab brothers in the neighboring states.

The only Palestinians who have claim to some property are those who were alive and present when they lost their home. That is the only case where it is justified to compensate the Jewish family who owns that home to allow the Palestinian owner to settle back in. However, that does not describe most Palestinians today -- who were born afterward and never legally owned those homes in the first place.

No one leaves their home "of their own accord" leaving behind all their belongings unless they are being massacred. Ethnic cleansing is not voluntary and running to save yourself from being massacred does not strip you of your rights. Thats what refugees are.

Meanwhile the Jews today continue the legacy of their parents and are fully 100% responsible for crimes against Palestinians:

Palestinians are as eager as anyone to see positive economic development for their tormented country. But they know full well that real economic progress awaits their release from Israeli military occupation (West Bank, East Jerusalem) and siege (Gaza Strip).

Consider the recent media promotion of the Netanyahu government's view that the occupied West Bank is witnessing rapid economic growth. Thomas Friedman picked up on that theme in his New York Times column, as did Michael Oren, Israel's ambassador to the United States, in this newspaper. The selective economic data they provide ignore the reality: Occupied Palestinian territory is not a sovereign country where traditional economic measures apply.

I was the manager who oversaw the establishment of the first modern mall in the West Bank—the Plaza Shopping Center in El Bireh. I can attest that the success of a West Bank mall rests on a thin layer of elite consumer privilege poised precariously over a chasm of widespread disempowerment. Until West Bank Palestinians gain free and open access to the world economy, beyond the markets of the occupying power, major enterprises in Palestinian towns will suffer.

Objective analyses by the World Bank suggest that Israel's repressive practices will not permit the Palestinian economy to develop meaningfully.

On water, a bank report from April 2009 notes that the "availability of water resources is highly disparate, with fresh water per capita in Israel approximately four times that of WBG [West Bank and Gaza]."

On mobility: "In the West Bank, restrictions on movement of people and access to natural resources has stifled economic growth."

On security: "Recurrent destruction of trees, private homes and public infrastructure, as well as [Israeli] settlers' encroachments on private land create a permanent state of insecurity."

On trade: "[Palestinians] exporting through Israel is becoming more difficult and . . . the current alternative through Jordan is severely limited. For Palestinian exporters to effectively compete on the international market they must be allowed to use modern door-to-door logistical systems."

David Craig, World Bank country director for the West Bank and Gaza, gave a realistic assessment in summing up a December bank report: "The Palestinian economy has the potential for dramatic growth, even in the midst of the current global recession. This can only be achieved by the private sector through export oriented growth. The new [Israeli] restrictions described in this report undermine this goal."

Israel's stranglehold over Palestinian economic resources is ongoing. Israel occupies or controls Palestinian land, airspace and electromagnetic spectrum used for telecommunications. By refusing to permit an already-licensed second Palestinian cellular operator to launch, Israel is putting hundreds of new jobs on hold and blocking the first step to liberalizing the Palestinian telecommunications market. I was personally involved in establishing the first Palestinian telecommunications operator in 1996 and can attest to the ongoing hinderance of Israeli practices.

Peace talk is cheap; actions by Israel that would make real peace—even economic peace—a reality are still the exception rather than the rule. I do not disparage any progress that has been made but, viewed in context, it is no more than window dressing.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052970204884404574362352547788232.html

[pjdude1219]

That did happen, SAM. Some were forcibly removed, some left of their own accord and were then turned away by their arab brothers in the neighboring states.So in other words you think its right for punishing people for not staying in a warzone?

The only Palestinians who have claim to some property are those who were alive and present when they lost their home. No will all the palestinians have a right to come back to their land. That is the only case where it is justified to compensate the Jewish family who owns that home to allow the Palestinian owner to settle back in. maybe to you but not according to the law and reason. However, that does not describe most Palestinians today -- who were born afterward and never legally owned those homes in the first place. a they owned those homes and the fact the their ancestors are dead doesn't mean it still isn't theirs they have inherited the claim.
Their claim is purely based on mythos, not law. No the palestinian claim is based in law the jewish one is mythos.

[S.A.M.]

they owned those homes and the fact the their ancestors are dead doesn't mean it still isn't theirs they have inherited the claim.

Exactly. If I leave my home to go somewhere, even for years and squatters move into it, they do not get a right to my property. Israeli Jews are all squatters.

[hypewaders]

My in-laws got their (ruined but big) family estate back from the Czech government, almost 50 years after they fled and became refugees (1948). When they came back, they hired the remaining squatters. They actually brought an extra one (me). I think the cops invited some to move along first, before they moved back. Nobody got physically hurt. It's got to happen in Israel, too. :fright:

[WillNever]

When your parents die and leave debt tell the bank that I'm sure they will listen. You are responsible for the unpayed debts(which an unrectified crime is) of your ancestors.

What country do you live in again? In the USA, no one inherits a debt from their parents except if they signed to take responsibility for that debt. So unless your parents were the joint custodians of your account, no judgements can be made against you. At all. They often will try to guilt you into paying their debts, though. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

My in-laws got their (ruined but big) family estate back from the Czech government. They hired the remaining squatters. I think the cops invited some to leave first. It needs to happen in Israel.

Correct. Many Holocaust survivors also got their property back in Europe. I don't know what happened to the squatters. But I assume they had no legal right to the property and went back where they came from.

[pjdude1219]

What country do you live in again? In the USA, no one inherits a debt from their parents except if they signed to take responsibility for that debt. So unless your parents were the joint custodians of your account, no judgements can be made against you. At all. They often will try to guilt you into paying their debts, though. :cool:

states

[WillNever]

Are you from here? I think you need to refamiliarize yourself with our laws. :cool:

[hypewaders]

Sam: "But I assume they had no legal right to the property and went back where they came from."

Nobody worried a lot about where they went. They could get housing and a job anywhere in the country, with a leg up from the government. They were too poor to leave the country.

[S.A.M.]

Have the Americans paid restitution to the descendents of native Americans?

[hypewaders]

It's an ongoing project involving casinos and cigarettes.

[pjdude1219]

Are you from here? I think you need to refamiliarize yourself with our laws. :cool:

that I do but you need to familiarize your self with international law. The palestinians still have a claim and you cannot deny them any of their 3 legally mandated choices.

[S.A.M.]

It's an ongoing project involving casinos and cigarettes.

So its still unfinished business. What about the descendents of slaves?

[hypewaders]

What about it? Do you have a problem about it? :bugeye:

[S.A.M.]

What about it? Do you have a problem about it, huh? :bugeye:

I noticed there are no native American holocaust museums. :rolleyes:

Or slavery museums.

But THE HOLOCAUST museum? One in every major city.

Seems like they might want to focus on their own victims of history rather than those of the Germans.

[WillNever]

Restitutions in the form of what? They get a raw deal, if that's what you mean. They get some pretty lousy accomodations and probably some aid, but I'm not sure.

Most of the American Indians here in New York State have become so assimilated into American culture that they are pretty hard to distinguish even physically. If you go to their casinos, you'll see that they dress like modern American business attire and some even have blonde hair. I think there are very few pure blooded Native Americans left.

But what more can they be given? Should we displace everyone to give land back to 1% of the population? Not happening. The American Indians just have to accept what took place as a result of a tragic history and move on with their lives -- which they are freely able to do.

[hypewaders]

Sam: "I noticed there are no native American holocaust museums.

Or slavery museums."

But we do have books. You must have seen them.

It would be a hollow cost if we didn't all cry to think of it.

[S.A.M.]

Sam: "I noticed there are no native American holocaust museums.

Or slavery museums."

But we do have books. You must have seen them.

It would be a hollow cost if we didn't all cry to think of it.

Yeah I read "Bury my heart at wounded knee" and "To kill a mockingbird"

But where are the 3 billion a year they are paying the Jews?

Where is the option for a free nation on top of other people already living there?

Where is the referendum of a separate state for those who want it?

After all, they did all this for the Jews.

And you have to admit, America is much much bigger than Palestine, they can afford to give a little Israel to every one of the 400 tribes.

[hypewaders]

"where are the 3 billion a year they are paying the Jews?"

Why, they're just building the most badass ghetto evah.

[WillNever]

Lol. There are tons of Native American and Black History museums in the USA. When I lived in CT, there was one right down the road from me: the Prudence Crandall museum. Check the woman out. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence_Crandall) :cool:

[S.A.M.]

I went to the native American museum and black history museum in Washington.

I didn't see any holocaust remembrance there.

[WillNever]

Probably because those weren't holocausts. There's a marked difference between the Nazi Holocaust and Slavery/Native American removal in the USA. The 20th century is recognized by historians as the birth of the idea of genocide (that's when the word was invented). Attempts at colonization and conquest (the old ways) were replaced by complete eradication. Only in the 20th century did we first have the technology for mass, organized, and systematic killing of entire groups of people. That's where death camps come in. The Holocaust is notorious for being the first of these genocides to happen on such a horrific scale. It has nothing to do with any racial bias.

The Holocaust was seen as a turning point in history, and due to the fact that there are still people around who actually were direct victims, it is still remembered.

[S.A.M.]

Maybe, but Americans are paying Jews 3 billion a year for crimes committed elsewhere to their [mostly dead] grandparentswhile ignoring their own homegrown crimes e.g. I did not see, in the native American museum, any mention of incidents like the "expression of joy" at the burning alive of 400 Pequot Indians in Massachusetts, whereas the Holocaust museum near the Washington monument had wall to wall stories of crimes against the Jews.

[WillNever]

The crimes aren't ignored. Most everyday Americans know that the American Indians were brutalized. :cool:

However, it isn't known in as much detail or with as much documentation, because it happened long, long ago. We have photographs and survivors of the Holocaust. Meanwhile, we have very boring and very hard to read writings on the Trail of Tears -- which is well covered in most Native American history displays anyway. It's the organization, the deliberateness, and the recency of the killing the Holocaust that strikes most people. It's the World War surrounding it. For the Native Americans, the point was always just to get them off the land. The Holocaust was designed purely to kill. That's a much scarier idea to many people.

[S.A.M.]

The crimes aren't ignored. Most everyday Americans know that the American Indians were brutalized. :cool:

However, it isn't known in as much detail or with as much documentation, because it happened long, long ago. We have photographs and survivors of the Holocaust. Meanwhile, we have very boring and very hard to read writings on the Trail of Tears -- which is well covered in most Native American history displays anyway. It's the organization and deliberateness of the killing the Holocaust that strikes most people. For the Native Americans, the point was always just to get them off the land. The Holocaust was designed purely to kill. That's a much scarier idea to many people.

By your logic, if they all had been killed then it would not have mattered once the Nazis were dead. But the Palestinians are still here and still alive and their stories remain unheard and the massacre goes on so Jews can resurrect a 2000 year old language and an archaic tribal mythology that contravenes the Geneva conventions and would not be the choice of Jews if they were subject to it by others.

In fact, they would at the forefront of abolishing such an inhumane and racist ideology.

[pjdude1219]

The crimes aren't ignored. Most everyday Americans know that the American Indians were brutalized. :cool:

However, it isn't known in as much detail or with as much documentation, because it happened long, long ago. We have photographs and survivors of the Holocaust. Meanwhile, we have very boring and very hard to read writings on the Trail of Tears -- which is well covered in most Native American history displays anyway. It's the organization, the deliberateness, and the recency of the killing the Holocaust that strikes most people. It's the World War surrounding it. For the Native Americans, the point was always just to get them off the land. The Holocaust was designed purely to kill. That's a much scarier idea to many people.

and the holocaust targeted more than jews but only the jews have been compensated for it.

[WillNever]

By your logic, if they all had been killed then it would not have mattered once the Nazis were dead.

How so?

[S.A.M.]

In the same way that the Americans don't think it matters enough to even mention what happened to the 400 Pequot Indians in the native American museum.

[WillNever]

and the holocaust targeted more than jews but only the jews have been compensated for it.

That isn't correct. Being Jewish is not a requirement for a stipend in Germany.

However, they shouldn't pay anybody. The Third Reich is gone and the German government today consists of nobody who took part in the Holocaust. It doesn't really make sense to burden the current generation of Germans for things they didn't do.

[WillNever]

In the same way that the Americans don't think it matters enough to even mention what happened to the 400 Pequot Indians in the native American museum.

Who are "The Americans?" Do you mean the American(s) who built some display in a museum somewhere? I'm sure that somewhere, some museum has got a record of it. What difference does it make?

[hypewaders]

Sam: "I didn't see any holocaust remembrance [in Washington]."

Then you need to come back (http://www.ushmm.org/). I'll take you there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXvKRZRofDE)

[S.A.M.]

Sam: "I didn't see any holocaust remembrance [in Washington]."

Then you need to come back (http://www.ushmm.org/).

I saw that one. Gruesome as it was it made me wonder why the Vietnam memorial was not as detailed. Or the Korean war memorial.

Vietnam memorial
http://www.whenguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/vietnam-memorial.jpg

Korean war memorial
http://www.visitingdc.com/images/korean-war-memorial-picture.jpg

Holocaust memorial museum
http://trendsupdates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/united-states-holocaust-memorial-museum-washington-dc.jpg

Why are America's victims faceless?

[hypewaders]

Not to me, and I'm not alone.
http://www.navyjack.info/i/navyjack-2.gif

[WillNever]

No documentation of the 400 Indians names? Just a thought.

[S.A.M.]

Has anyone asked the Pequots? People hold on to tragedies when they are left unfinished.

[hypewaders]

"Has anyone asked the Pequots?"

Good idea. I'll be right back...

[WillNever]

Probably nobody knows or cares, nor should they be expected to. There are muslims who don't care that some idiotic fanatics drove two planes into the World Trade Center, either. I don't hear talk of any Sept. 11 memorials in the countries where the group who did that (and the groups who harbored them) reside.

The atrocities of Germany, Korea, Iraq, etc. all happened in the last century, and we know the names of the people who were killed because how they were hunted down in many cases. Not knowing the names of the people or what they looked like doesn't make their deaths less significant. But it makes them less memorable.

[S.A.M.]

Probably nobody knows or cares

Which is why I said:

By your logic, if they all had been killed then it would not have mattered once the Nazis were dead.

[WillNever]

Nay, it still would have mattered. I gave like four reasons we remember the Holocaust, besides there being survivors. That is one reason, however.

[S.A.M.]

There are survivors of the Pequots too and it doesn't matter because no one cares.

But the native Americans are still there and their restitution still unfinished. Sometime, it will become an issue they will have to deal with

Likewise, Palestinians will be there and sometime, the Jews will have to deal with them.

[WillNever]

There are survivors of the Pequots too and it doesn't matter because no one cares.

But the native Americans are still there and their restitution still unfinished. Sometime, it will become an issue they will have to deal with

Likewise, Palestinians will be there and sometime, the Jews will have to deal with them.

No there aren't. There are descendants of the Pequots... but no direct survivors of that burning. The ones today didn't survive anything. Likely there won't be any dealing with the Pequot issue. More likely is that one day almost all of the Native Americans will have blended so far with American culture that they won't even identify themselves as Pequot at all, and life will go on.

As for the Palestinians, some day soon all the first generation muslims who had their homes taken away will be dead and gone... and all that will be left are descendants who will not have the same direct, legit claim to lost lands that their parents did. As time goes on, getting any land will be harder for Palestinians, not easier. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

As time goes on, getting any land will be harder for Palestinians, not easier

Maybe, then again, maybe not. The Jews got their mythical claim after 2000 years, even if they had to walk through a sea of dead Jews to get there. Its a cost benefit analysis, how much are you willing to give up to get your rights? Not every Palestinian will be willing to pay the price. And they shouldn't. But the Jewish state will dissolve under the weight of its own crimes and take Judaism with it. That will be what the Jews will pay for their land.

[pjdude1219]

No there aren't. There are descendants of the Pequots... but no direct survivors of that burning. The ones today didn't survive anything. Likely there won't be any dealing with the Pequot issue. More likely is that one day almost all of the Native Americans will have blended so far with American culture that they won't even identify themselves as Pequot at all, and life will go on.

As for the Palestinians, some day soon all the first generation muslims who had their homes taken away will be dead and gone... and all that will be left are descendants who will not have the same direct, legit claim to lost lands that their parents did. As time goes on, getting any land will be harder for Palestinians, not easier. :cool:

So your saying the jews are going to run out the clock so the palestinians should just forget about their rights? They have the same direct legit claim. The fact that some jew is on it now and that their parents are dead doesn't make it any less theirs

[WillNever]

Maybe, then again, maybe not. The Jews got their mythical claim after 2000 years, even if they had to walk through a sea of dead Jews to get there. Its a cost benefit analysis, how much are you willing to give up to get your rights? Not every Palestinian will be willing to pay the price. And they shouldn't. But the Jewish state will dissolve under the weight of its own crimes and take Judaism with it. That will be what the Jews will pay for their land.



I suppose anything is remotely possible, but the state of Israel dissolving? Probably not, but if it does, it will happen in a period so different from now, centuries maybe, when people's national identity shifts from religious grounds to cultural grounds. That's the the way that most of the world is headed right now. The USA and Europe and most other "Westernized," mainly white-skinned countries like Canada, Austrailia, Israel, etc. will probably never directly war with each other again, due to an increasing feeling of cultural solidarity, and places that are seen as "odd" will feel the same way. The world is slowly but surely moving away from an emphasis on religious differences and more on differences in lifestyle.

[S.A.M.]

I think it will happen much sooner than you think. It will implode in the next 50 years if not sooner. Probably, the Americans will have to bomb them into submission, eventually. Unless the Israelis rush into national suicide, which seems more likely given what is happening now. I pity the Palestinians having to share their living space with people who shoot their children in the head.

[hypewaders]

There goes the neighborhood.

-for a while.

[WillNever]

I think it will happen much sooner than you think. It will implode in the next 50 years if not sooner. Probably, the Americans will have to bomb them into submission, eventually. Unless the Israelis rush into national suicide, which seems more likely given what is happening now. I pity the Palestinians having to share their living space with people who shoot their children in the head.

As opposed to Israelis having to live with fanatics who strap bombs to their children to blow themselves AND other people up..? :cool:

[S.A.M.]

People blow themselves up in despair. But anyone who shoots a one year old child in the head or chest and goes home to his mythology is in no position to judge anyone. There is a solution for despair, justice. There is no solution for the evil that targets helpless children with cold deliberation for a mythological cult.

[hypewaders]

But you know, all in the IDF are not baby-killers (http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/03/13_refuseniks.shtml)

[S.A.M.]

But you know, all in the IDF are not baby-killers (http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/03/13_refuseniks.shtml)

Hence they are not in the IDF anymore. Are they? Or are they willing to serve in the parts that have already been ethnically cleansed of Palestinians?

[WillNever]

They are blowing other people up, not just themselves. They are blowing children up (both their children and the children of others), and that is quite demented. When people see and hear about these things, they tend to react with less sympathy, not more.

[hypewaders]

"Hence they are not in the IDF anymore."

But they show things changing. All sorts of people (even distant-relation Jews) are finding ways. Even me- I want to share a piece of the holy land, too. Maybe just for a while, while I'm alive and I think it's possible.

[S.A.M.]

They are blowing other people up, not just themselves. They are blowing children up (both their children and the children of others), and that is quite demented. When people see and hear about these things, they tend to react with less sympathy, not more.

Give them missiles so they can blow up children from the air and they will stop, in fact, they were quite surprised that it was considered wrong of them to use themselves as missile carriers in the absence of planes. Once they did, they stopped. When was the last suicide bombing?

[hypewaders]

Sam: "Or are they willing to serve in the parts that have already been ethnically cleansed of Palestinians?"

I don't think so. It's change, Sam. Not as swift as you want, but nobody can keep up with you, anyway.

[S.A.M.]

Sam: "Or are they willing to serve in the parts that have already been ethnically cleansed of Palestinians?"

I don't think so. It's change, Sam. Not as swift as you want, but nobody can keep up with you, anyway.

Thats because they don't travel, I bet these refuseniks went out and came back in and saw it differently. Its hard to smell the crap if you're living in it.

[WillNever]

Nay SAM, murdering innocents is ALWAYS wrong... regardless of what your reasons are, what your religion is, or the method by which you do it. It is wrong for the Israelis to kill individuals who didn't harm anybody... but that does not make it okay for Palestinians to kill OTHER individuals who didn't harm anybody. Placing collective responsibility on a group of people who don't act collectively is the only way that one can condone indiscriminate killing of human beings... and anyone who supports that is also supporting murder.

[S.A.M.]

Of course murdering innocents is wrong. Thats why the Palestinians stopped. The Israelis never did. Like you, as long as the victims are kept nameless and faceless, they don't care and hence ensure that the victims have no stories anywhere.

[hypewaders]

Come on, some did.

[WillNever]

Most Israelis have never killed anybody, SAM. This is a case of you assigning collective responsiblity to a group of people who don't collectively act as one. :cool:

[hypewaders]

Or want to- at least that's the overwhelming impression I've had of the Israelis I've known. Well, not always around here, but mostly.

[S.A.M.]

Not enough. Palestinians are killed everyday. And maybe worse, they are harvested.

Swedish daily: IDF killed Palestinians for organs

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3763958,00.html

Why are people shot by the IDF being returned dead and autopsied with Y incisions?

What do they doubt about the cause of death?

[hypewaders]

Hate? That's hard, but it's a bloody mess stopping it with violence.

[CheskiChips]

QUERY: What do you propose happens to the Irsraeli families who bought this formerly refugee land? Your automatic reaction might be "kick them off so that the Palestinian refugees can come back." But then you aren't thinking of the ramicifactions this has for individual Jewish people, which aren't fair.

Firstly, if the law somehow prohibits palestinians from purchasing the land, then it's a bad law. However, if I'm not mistaken, Jewish people have to pay for that property. And many if not most Jewish people probably have no idea about these weird laws. Kicking them off without due compensation would be immoral. They have lives and children too. Telling them to hit the road makes you no better than anyone else, and it is not the fault of recently born Israelis that they were born on the benefitting side. If you want someone to blame, blame the Israeli government instead of blaming (and wanting to punish) the Israeli people who just want to live their lives.

People need to stop looking this in terms of ethnic affiliation. You have to see with better eyes than that, at the individuals who your proposals are hurting.

Not really.

[pjdude1219]

Its going to take a war to fix the Palestinian/"Israeli" problem. Its going to be bad and bloody but the country that ends up will be a good one.( I just don't see the "Israelis" doing what is needed for real peace,justice, and prosperity for every one and continue trying to use bigotry as the basis for a country)

[pjdude1219]

Not really.

congrats on showing why the jews are the problem they think about the results of their actions for nonjews.

[hypewaders]

pj: "Its going to take a war to fix the Palestinian/"Israeli" problem."

We've been trying to fix it with what broke it for more than 60 years. Doesn't work. Please try again.

[pjdude1219]

pj: "Its going to take a war to fix the Palestinian/"Israeli" problem."

We've been trying to fix it with what broke it for more than 60 years. Doesn't work. Please try again.

What giving the "Israelis" everything and telling those hurt by it to fuck off. There is not going to be a peaceful solution because peace requires "Israel" to make real consessions which it isn't going to do. If Israel is not allowed to take more land from the Palestinians its going to say no. a peaceful solution would be nice but when the "Israelis" have spent 60 years refusing to even play ball with the Palestinians it time for someone out side to whip out the big guns(go to war) and establish a state their that is based on self determination and equality for all citizens.

[hypewaders]

We've already seen walls torn down, and apartheid systems beaten without war. For pete's sake pay attention.

[CheskiChips]

pjdude, why don't you go there and experience the situation first hand?

[pjdude1219]

We've already seen walls torn down, and apartheid systems beaten without war. For pete's sake pay attention.

yeah in germany and south africa not here nor do I think will we. The "Israelis" are never going to give the Palestinians their rights willingly. In 60 years what real overture for peace has "Israel" ever made to the Palestinians?

[pjdude1219]

pjdude, why don't you go there and experience the situation first hand?

I wouldn't be allowed to go to where the Israelis are stealing land. and I doubt you have been there either. Though I don't need to go there to know denying some one their rights is wrong.

[hypewaders]

That's a rather blunt point (ow). :poke:

[CheskiChips]

I wouldn't be allowed to go to where the Israelis are stealing land. and I doubt you have been there either. Though I don't need to go there to know denying some one their rights is wrong.

That's because there's no land stealing. But you can stay in border cities. And I just got back from 4 months of being there. And yes you do...because the media lies.

[hypewaders]

CheskiChips: "...the media lies."

Welcome back to the free world. Now let's rock it, with your best example right here, please. :rolleyes: /looks at icons on the right

[pjdude1219]

That's because there's no land stealing. So than what do you call evicting arabs out out of homes they own on land they own and than moving jews in to them? But you can stay in border cities. where the most land is being stolen And I just got back from 4 months of being there. Yes and you probably never went to where the land is currently being stolen the west bank or gaza and if you did you probably ignored it. Let me guess you stayed in your cushy hotel room and area around the hotel where all the rightful residents have been removed. And yes you do...because the media lies.Yes they do. Their biggest one Israel is in the right. and no i don't have to go t to Israel know that Israel is commiting evil acts on the palestinians by denying them their rights.



Let me guess the media is lying when ever it supports the palestinians and telling the truth when it supports the jewish state in palestine.

[pjdude1219]

That's a rather blunt point (ow). :poke:

I'm not going to pussy foot around i get straight to the point.

[S.A.M.]

Two sides of the same coin:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp0/Sm9_y6PRvrI/AAAAAAAACHk/sIz0hb7ahHs/s1600/Zionist%2BNazi%2Bmedal%2B2.jpg

[pjdude1219]

Two sides of the same coin:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FKUpGU_Jbp0/Sm9_y6PRvrI/AAAAAAAACHk/sIz0hb7ahHs/s1600/Zionist%2BNazi%2Bmedal%2B2.jpg

who?

[S.A.M.]

Its a Nazi coin with the star of David on one side and a swastika on the other. Priceless.

[hypewaders]

Extreme. :bugeye: Don't hack, man.

[pjdude1219]

Its a Nazi coin with the star of David on one side and a swastika on the other. Priceless.

that's uncalled for and not a good idea. While their are parralels between some things the nazis did and what Israel does doesn't mean they are the same.

[S.A.M.]

that's uncalled for and not a good idea. While their are parralels between some things the nazis did and what Israel does doesn't mean they are the same.

I didn't mint the coin, the Nazis did, after they were entertained by Zionists in Palestine.

Meanwhile, the Zionists may not be the same as the Nazis but there are quite a few similarities. Tony Greenstein has written an excellent piece on it over at Jewdas. (http://www.jewdas.org/2009/08/banning-comparisons-between-nazism-and-zionism/)

[CheskiChips]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbIQto3KPUM

[hypewaders]

Sam: "I didn't mint the coin, the Nazis did"

So don't take up the task again, whatever your "reason".

"Tony Greenstein has written an excellent piece on it over at Jewdas."

No, no thanks, I've had enough, we get it. Nobody likes repeating messages, so I won't give them.

[S.A.M.]

Sam: "I didn't mint the coin, the Nazis did"

So don't take up the task again, whatever your "reason".

"Tony Greenstein has written an excellent piece on it over at Jewdas."

No, no thanks, I've had enough, we get it.

Ah you've had enough of anti-racism? That was quick.

[hypewaders]

Thank you. :D very much. Move along now, Sister.

[S.A.M.]

I wouldn't have thought you'd be one to be daunted by Tony's habit of lengthy deatiled and pedantic prose.

But one never knows.

[hypewaders]

Well, my eyeballs were already bleeding. Sorry to diss a point.

[pjdude1219]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbIQto3KPUM

Except its bullshit and filled with wrong info. cellphones(wireless phones) were invented by AT&T an american company.

[hypewaders]

I thought česki's link was a light, but funny bagel- with a persistent Onion (http://www.theonion.com/content/index) finish.

[WillNever]

Not really.

Because why? Seeing "the Jews" in terms of a large collectively acting group makes it easier for you to condone violence against them, even when you know that on an individual basis, most Israelis have never directly harmed any Palestinians in their lives. That is why. It's time people start thinking in terms that aren't primitive.

[S.A.M.]

most Israelis have never directly harmed any Palestinians in their lives

How do you define most? The country is militarised and all Israelis, male and female are drafted into military service after high school and then perform a months service [or two months] every year.

By this measure, what percentage of Israelis has not participated in the occupation? They elected into government a man whose favourite slogan is "death to Arabs" mavet la aravim which is also the chant you can hear over here in the old city on Jerusalem day

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi4diaJU1Sw.

Secondly, this is the society we are talking about:
Over half Israeli Jews believes the marriage of a Jewish woman to an Arab man is equal to national treason and over 75 percent do not approve of apartment buildings being shared between Arabs and Jews. 60% would not allow an Arab to visit their home and about 40% agreed that “Arabs should have their right to vote for Knesset revoked”. Over half agreed that Israel should encourage its Arab citizens to emigrate from the country and would not want to work under the direct management of an Arab. 55 % said “Arabs and Jews should be separated at entertainment sites”. When asked what they thought of Arab culture, over 37 percent replied, “The Arab culture is inferior.” 27.3.07. Indeed a total of 62 percent of Israelis want the government to encourage local Arabs to leave the country, according to the 2006 democracy index by the Israel Democracy Institute.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3381978,00.html

At the height of anti-semitism in Germany, the figures on hating Jews were lower (http://www.jstor.org/pss/3788269)for the German population with most Germans disagreeing with the practices of the Third Reich. What does this say about the people of Israel and Zionism?

[WillNever]

The idea that it is an occupation is not universal, SAM. Them being there isn't actually killing Palestinians, which most haven't done. Killing people for occupying land isn't an excuse either, if you end up killing people who didn't harm anybody. There is never an excuse to justify the killing of innocents, and if it is wrong in one situation, then it is wrong in all situations. Even if just one innocent Israeli dies as a result of some violent takeover by Palestinians in some town somewhere, then it is not justified.

I honestly don't care what the mentalities of the Jews are. I believe in letting people make their own choices in life, and I draw the line only when their choices hurt others. The only acceptable retaking of Israeli land by Palestinians would be through nonviolent means.

[S.A.M.]

The idea that it is an occupation is not universal, SAM. Them being there isn't actually killing Palestinians, which most haven't done. Killing people for occupying land isn't an excuse either, if you end up killing people who didn't harm anybody. There is never an excuse to justify the killing of innocents, and if it is wrong in one situation, then it is wrong in all situations. Even if just one innocent Israeli dies as a result of some violent takeover by Palestinians in some town somewhere, then it is not justified.

I honestly don't care what the mentalities of the Jews are. I believe in letting people make their own choices in life, and I draw the line only when their choices hurt others. The only acceptable retaking of Israeli land by Palestinians would be through nonviolent means.

So let me know how many Israelis have not hurt Palestinians so as to steal and hold on to their land. Any statistics?

And wrt the video above:

The video won’t mean much to you if you are unfamiliar with the Old City in Jerusalem and if you don’t understand Hebrew. In both cases you will miss what the action is all about. So, let me explain. What you will see in the video is a crowd of gung-ho happy young religious idealists marching through the Arab quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem. Let me repeat, the Arab quarter. From time to time you also see Israeli police and barricades, neither of which stop the young men from progressing in their march and chanting. And what are they chanting at the beginning? “Arabs go home,” meaning, Arabs get out (sound familiar? like ‘Juden raus,’ i.e., the Nazi’s ‘Jews out’? These young men indeed fit that much of the Nazi image well, except appear to be less disciplined). Following that, these nice sweet young bullies start chanting loudly in the Arab quarter (let me repeat: in the Arab quarter) of the Old City, “Death to the Arabs.”

http://rete-eco.it/it/documenti/35-riflessioni/1950-jerusalem-day-in-the-old-city-of-jerusalem.html

[pjdude1219]

The idea that it is an occupation is not universal, SAM. Them being there isn't actually killing Palestinians, which most haven't done. Killing people for occupying land isn't an excuse either, if you end up killing people who didn't harm anybody. There is never an excuse to justify the killing of innocents, and if it is wrong in one situation, then it is wrong in all situations. Even if just one innocent Israeli dies as a result of some violent takeover by Palestinians in some town somewhere, then it is not justified.

I honestly don't care what the mentalities of the Jews are. I believe in letting people make their own choices in life, and I draw the line only when their choices hurt others. The only acceptable retaking of Israeli land by Palestinians would be through nonviolent means.
But the jewish choices are hurting the palestinians by denying them their rights

[WillNever]

No one has denied that Israelis have used force on Palestinians. However, even if Israelis have caused the deaths of innocent Palestinians, it still would not excuse Palestinians who would later cause deaths to innocent Israelis. Those Palestinians would be killing people who, in most cases, weren't the actual ones to drive them off. [

If you want vengeance, then you have to aim it directly at the people who caused you direct harm. Aiming it at individual people who happen to belong to the same larger group as the real criminals is not a moral alternative, and that's not up for debate.

The continual response I'm seeing is that if it's okay for some Israelis to hurt innocent Palestinians, then it's okay for Palestinians to hurt ANYBODY who happens to be Israeli too. That just doesn't fly.

[S.A.M.]

I'm waiting on your statistics to support your claim that "most Israelis" have not harmed Palestinians.

Also, as you can see from the video above and the poll statistics from Israel, your claim has no leg to stand on. Apparently. most Israelis want a Judenrein Germany Arabrein Israel to the extent of standing outside homes in the Arab quarter [from where 50 Palestinians were evicted a fortnight ago and more are in the process of losing homes] and chanting "mavet la aravim" [Death To Arabs]

[WillNever]

I don't need statistics to say that SAM. Innocent until proven guilty. What you should be doing is providing statistics that state that the majority of Israelis have, on an individual basis, gone out and killed at least one Palestinian each -- if that is what you claim. Not statistics showing that a majority supports the use of violence against Arabs, and not just statistics showing that most Israelis have talked about killing Palestinians. We're talking about actually physically killing Palestinians.

You won't find such statistics however. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

So all you have is an unsupported claim. Well I have evidence that most Israelis hate Palestinians and are racists. Harming does not require killing. You can blow off the legs of a child and I would consider it harm.

[WillNever]

So all you have is an unsupported claim.

SAM, I don't need to support my claim. It's common sense. There is no statistical evidence stating that most Palestinians haven't killed someone in their lives either... but we don't act on the assumption that most Palestinians have killed people, do we? A resounding no. And you definitely don't kill people without first finding out for sure if they actually killed someone themselves.

That is how it works in the real world, my friend. Innocence before guilt. Maybe guilt is the first basis they operate on in arab countries... but since I'm not an arab, we're not going to use that basis. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

SAM, I don't need to support my claim. It's common sense. There is no statistical evidence stating that most Palestinians haven't killed someone in their lives either... but we don't act on the assumption that most Palestinians have killed people, do we? A resounding no.
Thats because we have evidence, there are almost equal numbers of Jews and Arabs in Occupied Palestine. But the statistics are not the same for both sides

Here:

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/children.gif

123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,487 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths-index.gif
1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/injuries-index.gif
8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000

...continued in next post

[S.A.M.]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/prisoners.gif

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/homes.gif
0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/settlemnts.gif
Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land

source:http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[WillNever]

SAM, those graphs don't prove that most Palestinians haven't killed at least one Israeli, nor does it prove that most Israelis have killed at least one Palestinian. All they suggest is that Israelis have killed more Palestinians than the other way around.

[S.A.M.]

I'll be happy to see those statistics. Meanwhile all Israelis join the IDF [except for the religious nutsos who nevertheless support the settlement enterprise and beat up Palestinians (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHhECvN2kQI) in "Judea" and "Samaria" ], all Palestinians are not militants.

[WillNever]

I'll also be happy to see statistics showing that most Israelis have killed at least one Palestinian each too. And since killing without established cause is immoral, my claim is going to prevail here.

Meanwhile all Israelis join the IDF [except for the religious nutsos who nevertheless support the settlement enterprise and beat up Palestinians in "Judea" and "Samaria" ], all Palestinians are not militants.

That doesn't make any difference. Being part of a military force does not make you deserving of death.

[S.A.M.]

I think the toddlers and kids probably haven't had a turn yet. There is a significant number of them. Is it most?

They can't wait to grow up though:

http://www.bdsmovement.net/files/u12/israeli-children-bombs-leba.jpg



That doesn't make any difference. Being part of a military force does not make you deserving of death.

Its an occupation army. They enlist to harm Palestinians and deprive them of their rights.

[WillNever]

And still the proof doesn't come. Why am I not surprised?

The final analysis: if you can't prove that the Israelis you kill haven't actually done anything to kill anyone (and this applies to most), then you shouldn't be killing those Israelis. I can't imagine anyone arguing against that -- unless they have a deep hatred of all others outside of their own religion.

[S.A.M.]

What proof? You made the statement, its upto you to support it, I have given sufficient evidence that most Israelis join a military, kill or injure Palestinians, demolish their homes, unlawfully imprison them and beat them without being held accountable. They are protected by the social, political and justice system in their acts.

More:


Mossawa is supported by the Human Rights Program of the European Commission and the United Nations Democracy Foundation.

The report, written by Mossawa director Jafar Farah and others, mainly examines racism against Arabs in Israel, using criteria taken from the anti-Semitism reports in Europe.

The report covers Arabs killed by the security forces and by Jewish citizens, anti-Arab incitement by leading Jewish public figures, workforce discrimination by private Jewish organizations, the barring of Arabs from public places, and the destruction of Arab property. The report particularly highlights what it calls the government's helplessness in the face of the problem.

The report lists Arab citizens killed by police, soldiers, security guards and Jewish civilians over the past seven years. It notes that only one Jewish citizen, of Ethiopian origin, was killed under similar circumstances during this period. Indictments were issued in only seven cases, the report states. In two cases, the assailants were found not guilty, and the State Prosecutor appealed the verdict in one of these cases. In another case, the indictment was dropped because the shooter was deemed mentally unfit to stand trial.

Most cases of Arab citizens injured by Jews were not fully investigated, and the attackers were not indicted in most cases, according to the report.

However, the report says Arab violence against Jews led to immediate police action, including collective punishment in villages like Jisr al-Zarqa this month.

The report also highlights employment discrimination against Arabs, and accuses the Industry, Trade and Labor Ministry of foot-dragging in enforcing the workplace anti-discrimination law.

Citing lawsuits and verdicts of recent years, the report states Arabs are subject to racial profiling at Israel's airports. "Problematic passenger" forms, filled out by security guards and bearing the names of Arab passengers, were found in Israel Airports Authority files. Similar cases occured at train stations and on trains, the report stated.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966014.html

That is "most Israelis" who harm Palestinians in one way or another.

[iceaura]

The final analysis: if you can't prove that the Israelis you kill haven't actually done anything to kill anyone (and this applies to most), then you shouldn't be killing those Israelis. Although it is unwise to kill without immediate necessity, it's hard to argue that any Israeli is free of responsibility for the conduct of their military and other forces over all these years.

That is, almost any Palestinian is probably justified in killing almost any Israeli adult, in self defense if nothing else.

They shouldn't, of course. But they have cause.

[WillNever]

, I have given sufficient evidence that most Israelis join a military, kill or injure Palestinians, demolish their homes, unlawfully imprison them and beat them without being held accountable. They are protected by the social, political and justice system in their acts.

More:




That is "most Israelis" who harm Palestinians in one way or another.

Where is evidence that most Israelis have killed or injured Palestinians? Where is evidence that most Israelis have demolished a Palestinian home? Where is evidence that most Israelis have unlawfully impirisoned and beaten a Palestinian person?

You haven't provided evidence of any of that. You haven't even provided evidence that most Israelis have done just *one* of those things.




What proof? You made the statement, its upto you to support it

Nay, I don't have any plans to kill anyone. It would be up to Palestinians to prove that most Israelis have killed somebody, if they too wanted to engage in killing. Otherwise it's wrong. :cool:

[S.A.M.]

Sorry doesn't compute. If you make the claim, you provide the evidence. This is purpotedly a science site, so you can ask the mods.

[WillNever]

That is, almost any Palestinian is probably justified in killing almost any Israeli adult, in self defense if nothing else.


Actually that would just be murder. Killing any Israeli adult indiscriminately is not self defense. Defense how? You would be assaulting someone who probably never hurt you ever. They may a citizen of a government you don't like, but that doesn't give you a right to kill people.

[WillNever]

Sorry doesn't compute. If you make the claim, you provide the evidence. This is purpotedly a science site, so you can ask the mods.

We can stop right there. That's codespeak for "I can't actually find a legit justification for advocating the indiscriminate use of violence against Israelis."

The fact of the matter is that if you want to kill someone, you need a reason to do it. So unless someone can show that most Israelis have killed, then we have no basis for killing them.

[S.A.M.]

Okay I am going to have to report your post for not supporting your claim with evidence, since that classifies it as trolling. Its the scientific way

Done.
trolling, refusing to support claims with evidence. Unscientific

Mod Note: (link below)

You Report- We Decide. (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2350681&postcount=27)

[WillNever]

Quite frankly the idea that you think I need to scientifically support a claim that most people in a country have not committted a murder is both hilarious and sad at the same time.

In the meantime, I'm going to report all these unsupported claims right now:

"Most Israelis join a military, kill or injure Palestinians, demolish their homes, unlawfully imprison them and beat them without being held accountable."

Saying you've supported them and providing stories,isn't the same as actually providing numbers showing that most Israelis have done each of these things -- which is what you said. That means it's trolling, and it's being reported.

Done and done.

Mod Note: (link below)

You Report- We Decide. (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2350681&postcount=27)

[S.A.M.]

You seem to be under the delusion that most Israelis do not want to kill Palestinians, when all polls show that they do:

Poll shows most Israelis back IDF action in Gaza

Despite pictures from Gaza depicting massive destruction and a large number of wounded and killed, including women and children, 82 percent of the public believe that Israel has not "gone too far" with the military force it is exercising against Hamas.

This means that almost all Israel's Jewish citizens warmly support the operation, its goals, firepower and management.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055564.html

All of these individuals serve in the IDF or support its actions.

And they even recruit children:

Child recruitment to the IDF is a serious social problem that needs to be addressed promptly, a report released Thursday by a nonprofit organization indicates.

The report, "Child Recruitment in Israel," investigates different ways in which children under 18 participate in the army. It was conducted by New Profile, an Israeli organization that opposes mandatory army service and its effects on society.

"This issue has been raised in the world and it's about time it's raised in Israel," said Sergey Sandler, one of the report's three authors. "We hope will lead to public debate."

According to Sandler, involving Israeli children in army-related activities prior to the legal age of 18 is prevalent throughout Israeli society, including in the educational system. He added that recruiting children under the age of 15 is considered a crime by the International Court of Justice.

"They're considered responsible for actions from age 18, but we weapons and the possibility to be hurt from the age of 16," Sandler said.

Neta Rotem, who also wrote the report, cited as an example children who train for Gadna, the paramilitary youth battalion, who are placed under the supervision of army commanders.

"It's a summer camp and they learn what soldiers do, how to search houses, and work at checkpoints," Rotem said. "But it really is recruitment. It's training for the army."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x75864

[CptBork]

The Negev has no water resources. If war were to occur everyone there would be outside of Israel's capability of defense. It's militarily, economic, and socially bad idea to colonize the Negev.

I believe I read that 33% of Israel's drinking water supplies now come from nuclear powered desalination plants that remove salts from ocean water. If you invest in more of that instead of more trailers in the middle of Palestinian land, together with tree planting and similar terraforming projects, you can make the Negev habitable. It would be much easier and less costly than sending extremists to live on other peoples' lands.

As for the argument that orthodox families are having 8-10 kids: maybe they should stop doing that if they feel the land they live on is too small. And secular Israelis shouldn't have to pay a penny for their exploits. Otherwise, these giant orthodox clans should move somewhere else where they'd be welcomed and wouldn't be displacing anyone already living there.

[Buffalo Roam]

You seem to be under the delusion that most Israelis do not want to kill Palestinians, when all polls show that they do:



All of these individuals serve in the IDF or support its actions.

And they even recruit children:

SAM, support by the People that the Government didn't go far enough in Gaza, isn't a indication of wanting to murder all Palestinians, it is a recognition that the Israeli Government didn't go far enough to end the problem of incessant attacks, and that all it did was allow Hamas to escape to kill again and keep the e Israeli People under the threat of daily attacks from Hamas and the Palestinians.

You bigotry is running amuck, and you really need a dose of reality, even I recognize that not all Palestinians/Muslims want to murder all Israelis Jews, just as I also know that all Israelis don't want to murder all Palestinians/Muslims.

[pjdude1219]

SAM, support by the People that the Government didn't go far enough in Gaza, isn't a indication of wanting to murder all Palestinians, it is a recognition that the Israeli Government didn't go far enough to end the problem of incessant attacks, and that all it did was allow Hamas to escape to kill again and keep the e Israeli People under the threat of daily attacks from Hamas and the Palestinians.

You bigotry is running amuck, and you really need a dose of reality, even I recognize that not all Palestinians/Muslims want to murder all Israelis Jews, just as I also know that all Israelis don't want to murder all Palestinians/Muslims.

Well considering what the ROE amounted too um SAM's right if their complaining that the government didn't go far enough enough they are in fact more or less advocating the whole sale slaughter of palestinians. I mean hell IDF soldiers have already come out and said in Gaza the basic idea was shoot anything that moves.

[Buffalo Roam]

Well considering what the ROE amounted too um SAM's right if their complaining that the government didn't go far enough enough they are in fact more or less advocating the whole sale slaughter of palestinians. I mean hell IDF soldiers have already come out and said in Gaza the basic idea was shoot anything that moves.

So you can post the ROE? please do.

Provide proof that it was kill anything that moves, if it was Gaza would have looked like Lidice, and the Israelis would now be eating dinner in Gaza, and enjoying the beaches on the Mediterranean.

[pjdude1219]

So you can post the ROE? please do.I'm not in the IDF I don't have access to the ROE. No country posts its ROE on the internet.

Provide proof that it was kill anything that moves, That was not what it was its what it amounted too.
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=what+were+the+rules+of+engagement+of+the+IDF +in+the+latest+gazan+war&page=1&qsrc=2417&ab=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.richardsilverstein.com%2Ftikun_ olam%2Ftag%2Fgaza-war-idf-veterans-confirm-human-rights-abuses%2F

[Buffalo Roam]

I'm not in the IDF I don't have access to the ROE. No country posts its ROE on the internet.

That was not what it was its what it amounted too.
http://www.ask.com/bar?q=what+were+the+rules+of+engagement+of+the+IDF +in+the+latest+gazan+war&page=1&qsrc=2417&ab=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.richardsilverstein.com%2Ftikun_ olam%2Ftag%2Fgaza-war-idf-veterans-confirm-human-rights-abuses%2F

So you don't have a clue to what was the reality of the situation, you just went with your preconceived bigotry.

[Challenger78]

Being part of a military force does not make you deserving of death.

Being part of a force, that trains to kill, occupy and destroy things does not make you deserving of death, but it gets you close enough.

[Challenger78]

I'm not in the IDF I don't have access to the ROE. No country posts its ROE on the internet.


But you will find that there is less information on the IDF's ROE, than any other nations.

Here's Australia's
http://www.globalcollab.org/Nautilus/australia/australian-security-general/legal-rules-of-engagement

[pjdude1219]

So you don't have a clue to what was the reality of the situation, you just went with your preconceived bigotry.

I am not a bigot and my views are based on facts. Yeah I have no idsea what i'm talking about yet I presented a source.

[StrawDog]

Nay SAM, murdering innocents is ALWAYS wrong... regardless of what your reasons are, what your religion is, or the method by which you do it. It is wrong for the Israelis to kill individuals who didn't harm anybody... but that does not make it okay for Palestinians to kill OTHER individuals who didn't harm anybody. Placing collective responsibility on a group of people who don't act collectively is the only way that one can condone indiscriminate killing of human beings... and anyone who supports that is also supporting murder.
That is a fair comment. Where, or with who, lies the responsibility to end the circumstances that result in innocents being murdered?

[Buffalo Roam]

I am not a bigot and my views are based on facts. Yeah I have no idsea what i'm talking about yet I presented a source.

Yes, a source that is using unnamed sources, and purported war crimes, yes really reliable sources, what you have presented a blog site with a agenda, with no concrete evidence, only wild speculation and conjecture, nothing in the video showed any such actions, or abuses.

Your the one who brought up ROEs and claimed that they were a shoot on sight, now provide documentable reference, fact and name, or the actual ROEs that show such were the Rules of Engagement.

pj, show one post that you have made that doesn't blame Israel from day one.

[pjdude1219]

Yes, a source that is using unnamed sources, yes because active duty soldiers always give their names so they can be punished for being a whistleblower and purported war crimes, They have been substaniated by Israeli sources. yes really reliable sources, more reliable than anything you've posted.

Your the one who brought up ROEs and claimed that they were a shoot on sight, No i didn't say that I said they ammounted to that. now provide documentable reference, fact and name, or the actual ROEs that show such were the Rules of Engagement. I did. Just because its not confirming your ideas doesn't mean its not reliable.

pj, show one post that you have made that doesn't blame Israel from day one. Blaming those responsalbe doesn't make you a bigot. By that defintion you would have to be a bigot because you don't think Israel has a blame. and even if I have never not blamed Israel for its actions doesn't make me a bigot. I blame the spanish and english for offing wqhole peoples it doesn't mean I'm a bigot.

[StrawDog]

Not enough. Palestinians are killed everyday. And maybe worse, they are harvested.
Why are people shot by the IDF being returned dead and autopsied with Y incisions?
What do they doubt about the cause of death?
Further to this grotesque outrage. A most disturbing and damning post from Kawther Salam.
The Body Snatchers of Israel
Independently of the recently published article of the Swedish journalist Donald Boström about the Israelis murdering Palestinians in order to harvesting of organs for sale, and independently of the hysteric screeching and denials by the Israelis, I want to present my readers what I witnessed, saw, observed and heard during my 22 years of journalistic work under the Israeli military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza. My personal experience confirms what Mr. Boström wrote: while I do not know the particular case which he describes, it is typical for what the Israelis do in Palestine all the time, what is “normal” since the early seventies. (http://www.kawther.info/wpr/2009/08/23/the-body-snatchers-of-israel)

Any comments regarding this article?

[S.A.M.]

SAM, support by the People that the Government didn't go far enough in Gaza, isn't a indication of wanting to murder all Palestinians, it is a recognition that the Israeli Government didn't go far enough to end the problem of incessant attacks, and that all it did was allow Hamas to escape to kill again and keep the e Israeli People under the threat of daily attacks from Hamas and the Palestinians.

You bigotry is running amuck, and you really need a dose of reality, even I recognize that not all Palestinians/Muslims want to murder all Israelis Jews, just as I also know that all Israelis don't want to murder all Palestinians/Muslims.

See the poll, Buffalo. 82% of Israelis supported the massacre in Gaza, if you compute that 20% of Israelis are Arabs, that is all the Jews who supported acts like this:

The International Committee of the Red Cross has accused the Israeli military of "unacceptable" conduct and breaching international humanitarian law after discovering four emaciated children living next to the corpses of their mothers and other adults in bomb-shattered houses in Gaza City.

The ICRC said that it had spent four days seeking Israeli guarantees of safe passage so that it could gain access to the houses in the badly damaged Zaytun neighbourhood of the city. It was finally allowed to send in a rescue team and four Palestine Red Crescent Society ambulances yesterday afternoon and said today that what they found was shocking.

In one house they discovered four small children, alive but too weak to stand, next to the bodies of their dead mothers. In all their were 12 dead bodies lying on mattresses.

In another house they found 15 survivors of the Israeli bombardment, several of them wounded, and in a third, three corpses. At that point they were ordered to leave by Israeli soldiers manning a post some 80 metres away, but they refused to do so.

The children and the wounded had to be taken to the ambulances by donkey cart because earth walls erected by the Israeli army made it impossible to bring the vehicles close enough to the houses. In all, the rescue team removed 18 wounded and 12 others who were extremely exhausted. It took away two corpses and plans to return to fetch 13 more tomorrow.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21683.htm

Ask the Peace Now movement if they can even get a thousand Jews to come for a demonstration in Israel.

To Israel’s critics abroad, the picture could not be clearer: Israel’s war in Gaza is a wildly disproportionate response to the rockets of Hamas, causing untold human suffering and bombing an already isolated and impoverished population into the Stone Age, and it must be stopped.

Since Israeli warplanes opened the assault on Gaza 17 days ago, about 900 Palestinians have been reported killed, many of them civilians. Red Cross workers were denied access to scores of dead and wounded Gazans, and a civilian crowd near a United Nations school was hit, with at least 40 people killed.

But voices of dissent in this country have been rare. And while tens of thousands have poured into the streets of world capitals demonstrating against the Israeli military operation, antiwar rallies here have struggled to draw 1,000 participants. The Peace Now organization has received many messages from supporters telling it to stay out of the streets on this one.

As the editorial page of The Jerusalem Post put it on Monday, the world must be wondering, do Israelis really believe that everybody is wrong and they alone are right?

The answer is yes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/world/middleeast/13israel.html


The ones who did not want to kill the Palestinians have probably moved out.

[Buffalo Roam]

See the poll, Buffalo. 82% of Israelis supported the massacre in Gaza, if you compute that 20% of Israelis are Arabs, that is all the Jews who supported acts like this

SAM your definition of what the story show and poll asks.

And as to;

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/13/world/middleeast/13israel.html?_r=1

Israelis deeply believe, rightly or wrongly, that their military works harder than most to spare civilians, holding their fire in many more cases than using it

“This is a just war and we don’t feel guilty when civilians we don’t intend to hurt get hurt, because we feel Hamas uses these civilians as human shields,” said Elliot Jager, editorial page editor of The Jerusalem Post, who happened to answer his phone for an interview while in Ashkelon, an Israeli city about 10 miles from Gaza, standing in front of a house that had been hit two hours earlier by a Hamas rocket.

“We do feel bad about it, but we don’t feel guilty,” Mr. Jager added. “The most ethical moral imperative is for Israel to prevail in this conflict over an immoral Islamist philosophy. It is a zero sum conflict. That is what is not understood outside this country.”

This is not a call for the destruction and murder of the Gaza Arabs.

Boaz Gaon, a playwright and peace activist,

“Hamas has pushed Israeli thinking back 30 years,” he said. “It has killed the peace camp.”

Even the Peace Camp in Israel recognizes that Hamas is responsible.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle21683.htm

If Hamas doesn't want their people to starve don't shoot rocket and mortars daily into Israel, don't start a war you can't win.

War is Hell, it is a dirty business, and there are no saints on either side, but Hamas and Gaza and the Arab Palestinians have chosen this route, they have been on the attack against Israel since before 1948.

Daily mortar attacks, rocket attacks, suicide bombers, constant probes against the security forces, kidnappings......war, that is what Hamas, Fatah, and the myriad of smaller Arab warlords have chosen.

So again show exactly in expressed words that Jews Israelis support the murder of Arabs in Palestine, show the ROEs that authorized shoot on sight, show the Operation Plans that are the necessary part to carry out such a thing.

SAM you are running rampant with Hyperbole, and bigotry, your Islamic chauvinism, is on display for all to see, and it is as ugly as any such bigotry from any raciest around the world.

Nothing you forwarded show any such sentiment from the Jews Israelis, supporting the rampant murder of Arabs in Gaza or the West Bank, or anywhere else in the world, the ROE of the Israeli Army are clear and firm on that subject and if that weren't the death toll would be in the 100reds of thousands, not 1,400 casualties.

Mod Note:

Please do not conflate all Jews with Israelis. It appears here as if you are trying to exaggerate the position of another contributor.
Please avoid ad hominems as in "SAM you are running rampant..." above.

-Hypewaders

[S.A.M.]

Well Buffalo the way I see it, ghouls can justify napalming villages or throwing white phosphorus on children or even torturing innocent civilians in unlawful detention as "self defence".

The question is, do you really want to accomodate such thinking? Are these the kind of people you want to reach a compromise with?

You can compromise with people who show some semblance of remorse at starving children lying next to the dead bodies of their mothers.

What understanding can you give to those who will deliberately keep away rescuers from them?

At what point do you say, enough! This must stop, now!


Here is a preview of Max Blumenthals new documentary called Israel's Terror Inside (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qt38N0PqrU)


What part of it do you disagree with?

[otheadp]

It is Israeli land, and they can do whatever they please with it. If you got problems, click your heals three times and go f8 yourself. Have a nice day :)

[S.A.M.]

It is Israeli land

Or so they think. Karma is waiting on them.

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=74&jumival=426

[spidergoat]

Anything missing?

[spidergoat]

Knowledge? Why don't you start a separate rant on it?

[S.A.M.]

Okay

[StrawDog]

Knowledge? Why don't you start a separate rant on it?

They evidently took your brains too.

Anything missing?
You are funny. :) I recall from some thread you have a slight mental condition? Nevertheless, feel free to respond to my post #53 in the on topic thread.

[spidergoat]

It's a developmental disorder, which often results in a higher than average IQ. I responded in post #58.

[S.A.M.]

Clueless pro-Israelis ask for right to commit genocide

http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/02022009/2133096/2wa.jpg

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3764489,00.html

[hypewaders]

It seems they never comprehended the phrase "Never Again!".

[pjdude1219]

It is Israeli land, no it isn't and they can do whatever they please with it. no they can't you see there are these things called laws. If you got problems, click your heals three times and go f8 yourself. Have a nice day :)

what a surprise an Israeli supporter thinks its perfectly ok for Israel to flaunt international law.

[spidergoat]

Clueless pro-Israelis ask for right to commit genocide

Nowhere in that article did it even imply such a thing, not that I am in favor of Israeli settlements.

[StrawDog]

It's a developmental disorder, which often results in a higher than average IQ. I responded in post #58.
Sorry to hear that friend. You seem to be function just fine though.

[S.A.M.]

Nowhere in that article did it even imply such a thing, not that I am in favor of Israeli settlements.

Yeah, they are asking that Americans not stop settlement building because they live on native American land. The Israelis want their genocide, because it was such a good thing when the Americans did it to the natives.

It seems they never comprehended the phrase "Never Again!".

When it comes to the settlements and Israeli military expansionism, its more like "Never Mind"!!!

[spidergoat]

Building is not genocide.

[S.A.M.]

Ask these people

http://www.zochrot.org/index.php?id=754

[spidergoat]

Yeah, I'll do that.

[otheadp]

If Arab squatters on Jewish land want Israel to stop building in its own damn capital, they should also stop building up villages next to Israeli towns near the "Green Line".

Reciprocation, baby.

Also, if Syria wants peace with Israel, maybe they should offer us some land as a "goodwill gesture" and a prerequisite of us even beginning to negotiate on our recognition of them. Thanks.

[pjdude1219]

If Arab squatters owning and living in homes for hun dreds of years is squating? on Jewish landits arab land want Israel to stop building in its own damn capital,which no country recognizes because most know the idea of having a conquered city as your capital is moronic and recipe for disaster. they should also stop building up villages next to Israeli towns near the "Green Line".On believable so its the palestinains fault that asshole jews built new town right next to their town that have been there for hundreds of years

Also, if Syria wants peace with Israel, maybe they should offer us some land as a "goodwill gesture" in other words let you keep what you stole and give more. and a prerequisite of us even beginning to negotiate on our recognition of them. Thanks. hoe bought we get a president in the states that wants real peace in the middle east and cuts your precious Israel off.

[S.A.M.]

If Arab squatters on Jewish land .

Please support this claim. According to genetic studies from Israel, Palestinians are descended from a core population that inhabited the region from neolothic times.

According to Jewish mythology, Abraham lived in Ur and was not from Palestine.

Do you have evidence to the contrary?

[James R]

This thread has drifted off topic. Closed.