Black/Brown/Gay etc Pride = Good; White Pride = Racism [Archive]

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MZ3Boy84

08-10-09, 08:42 PM

Doreen

08-10-09, 08:55 PM

1) If your group has been shit on or marginalized it has a different feeling when you are pro your group explicitly. If you are generally taken as the norm from which other groups deviate from, which is the position white people are in, then it can feel like a hankering to have it over others.

2) Whites aren't really a group. I see Irish parades and generally these are not seen as racist. If you have some cultural or experiential thing in common and that's what you focus on, even if you are pretty much all white, it ain't taken as racist. It's actually an odd thing to be pro-white. But if you as a German american want to have a German culture day with a focus on the German american experience, or whatever, most people are not going to take this as racist unless Nazi flags are flown.

3) There are millions of daily pro-white messages that are implicit. Once you add on the explicit it comes off as a power play.

WillNever

08-10-09, 09:15 PM

Minority racial groups expect whites to be held to a different standard of public behavior than themselves. It's been that way for twenty years. Songs with anti-white lyrics are celebrated by blacks everywhere. But if you get Don Imus on the radio calling a group of girls nappy-headed hos, and then apologize for it, you can bet that Al Sharpton will immediately see to it that he's fired -- which Imus was.

For those who don't know, Al Sharpton is a self-promoting instigator of racial unrest who, along with Jessie Jackson, masquerades as a black civil rights activist. Sharpton is the one who shows up whenever anything even *remotely* racial is happening. If there are any black people involved, and if they're clashing with any white people (whether it's due to racial reasons or not), then you can bet that Reverend Al will eventually jump on it. Then he pours as much gasoline onto the proverbial fire as it takes for them to get another spot on the 11 o'clock news.

He is also the racist, flaming shitwheel who completely fabricated the infamous Tawana Brawley case (look it up) back in 1987, and he did so in order to (1) make himself famous and (2) attack some white cops on the NYC police force that he and his followers didn't like. Al Sharpton also once dreamt of being the nation's first black president. During his one and only presidential campaign, Sharpton used his campaign contributions to line his own pockets, by claiming that the money was needed to help support his "ministry" while he was busy with the duties of campaigning. Apparently, Reverend Al's ministry includes a swimming pool, a sauna, and a maid. I guess he needs all of that stuff to get closer to Jesus. What he deserves is a prison sentence.

What we're faced with is an ethnic group that on the one hand, screams that they want equality. On the other hand, they say and do all sorts of self-defeating things which willingly draw a dividing line between themselves and every other ethnic group. That's not moving towards integration and equality -- that's moving backwards, into even worse divisiveness and mutual mistrust.

Doreen

08-10-09, 09:30 PM

What we're faced with is an ethnic group that on the one hand, screams that they want equality. On the other hand, they say and do all sorts of self-defeating things which willingly draw a dividing line between themselves and every other ethnic group.

Wow, look a summation of an ethnic group.
Do you think it is genetic?
What does it mean about me if I have had radically different experiences of the members of this group?

But hey, if German americans are regularly discriminated against, as the OP writer claims, perhaps I live in another USA.

Or is he, as a German American, screaming that he wants equality, when in fact he is doing self-defeating things which willingly draw a line between himself and every other group.

So much research to be done, so little time.

Varda

08-10-09, 09:42 PM

Why can't we get rid of pride altogether?

MZ3Boy84

08-10-09, 10:32 PM

1)
2) Whites aren't really a group. I see Irish parades and generally these are not seen as racist.

You are just helping my point. Whites aren't socially allowed to be proud of their race unless it relates to nationality, which isn't proud to be white at all, because there are non-whites from the same countries as well.

But yet somehow it's ok for blacks to be proud of being black not for being American, African, Irish or anything else but for ONLY being black... but I guess blacks aren't really a group either?????? See my point?

WillNever

08-10-09, 10:43 PM

Doreen

08-10-09, 10:52 PM

I'm not just talking in vague generalizations here, Doreen. There are specific examples and easily demonstratable patterns of blacks expecting white people to behave in a wholly different set of rules than they. Let me give you an example. Blacks often freak out when white people use the word "nigger" in almost every usage of the term -- and rightfully so. It is a degrading label. However, those same blacks will often then use that degrading label "nigger" to refer to themselves or others who are black. That's not a parallel. A parallel was if blacks expected white to accept a term with the kind of charge and history nigger has for them. Honkey does not cut it. Nigger meant subhuman beast. If blacks had a word with that kind of charge for white, you can damn well bet whites would call them on using it.

Now, if blacks are going to openly and casually use the word "nigger" (and they do -- all the time), then white people can use it, too. For blacks to tell whites that it's "okay for us to say nigger, but it's not okay for YOU to say it" is in itself an openly racist attitude. Nah. It does not mean the same thing in these two cases. Not that I appreciate it when other blacks use the word, but it is definitely not the same thing. Ask gays about in-group use of faggot or lesbians about dyke. If you had a name like that aimed at you consistantly you would understand how using between in group members is a way of working on that charge. But it is not the same as someone else using it.

By telling me that I am not allowed to say certain words because of my race, you are basically saying that the color of a person's skin should determine how they are allowed to behave in our society. Now tell me... how exactly is that any different than whites telling blacks that because of the color of their skin, they aren't allowed to ride in the front end of the bus..?
So you are equating your not being allowed to use the word nigger with people being considered less human and not having the same rights in public transportation.

Fundamentally speaking, there is no real difference here. Making ethnically based decisions about what people are allowed to say, or how they can behave, or anything else for that matter is RACISM, pure and simple.You have no experience. You are living in a world of ideas on this issue.

Doreen

08-10-09, 10:54 PM

You are just helping my point. Whites aren't socially allowed to be proud of their race unless it relates to nationality, which isn't proud to be white at all, because there are non-whites from the same countries as well.
Celts can and do. Scandanavians do. White subgroups get together around ethinicity all the time.

But yet somehow it's ok for blacks to be proud of being black not for being American, African, Irish or anything else but for ONLY being black... but I guess blacks aren't really a group either?????? See my point?

Nope. They are a group that has been treated as a separate group, giving them similar experiences. Here in the US they have a kind of group identity that would not make as much sense if they lived in Africa.

mike47

08-10-09, 10:59 PM

In my community we have some black people and some of them are racist against anyone who is not black .

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:02 PM

The idea that white people can only use the word to talk down to blacks makes the automatic assumption that whites are superior to blacks. Is that the way black people see it..? Then they have even bigger problems than what words white people may or may not use. They have a much deeper inferiority complex and their behavior is only serving to continually reinforce that complex. Furthermore, when a black calls another black a "nigger," it is still an insulting and degrading label. So the only thing that you are telling me is that it is okay for blacks to degrade other blacks, but it's not okay for anyone else to degrade blacks. That's sheer hypocrisy.

If I meet someone who thinks of himself as a nigger, then who am I to tell him otherwise..? Fine, if that's the way you want it, then have it your way: you're a nigger, if that's what suits you. But if you hear me using the same label that you yourself are using on a constant and regular basis, then don't tell me that because of my race, I'm not allowed to employ the same language that YOU do. If you don't like hearing it, then DON'T SAY IT.

If blacks wish to rid themselves of that inferiorty complex, then they can start by declaring that NO ONE should be using the word "nigger" in a casual context. When I see them taking that stance, then I'll start worrying about which words I do or do not use. But in the meantime, I'm not going to care more about someone than they care about themselves... and telling me how I can speak, based upon my race, is still a downright racist attitude if there ever was one.

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:07 PM

What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:12 PM

What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

Wow that's so insulting. Are you saying that european culture hasn't achieved anything and therefore white people have nothing to be proud of? If someone had said this to a person of colour you would have been upset right?

I can just see you saying to a black person 'what exactly are you proud of that is exclusively 'black'. Hmm.

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:16 PM

See what we mean about applying a double standard, Lucysnow? :cool:

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:19 PM

See what we mean about applying a double standard, Lucysnow? :cool:

Well it is a double standard...in the U.S at least. Just because someone is proud of their culture doesn't mean that they are immediately negating anyone else's. I just find it completely condescending to infer that European culture hasn't done anything worthy of pride. Actually I'm offended.

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:21 PM

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:27 PM

The only demonstrations I have seen of "white pride" are usually accompanied by "fuck the nigger". I'm just wondering what exactly Mz wants to celebrate that he is being denied as a white person.

So should people associate 'black pride' with 'fuck the hunky'? You're simply mimicking those who associate islam with extremism. You're bias is showing again I think you should pull up your knickers.

Challenger78

08-10-09, 11:28 PM

Wow that's so insulting. Are you saying that european culture hasn't achieved anything and therefore white people have nothing to be proud of? If someone had said this to a person of colour you would have been upset right?

I can just see you saying to a black person 'what exactly are you proud of that is exclusively 'black'. Hmm.

You know, Somehow literature and arts, don't really compare to celebrating Bastile day, with shoving a dynamite up a black slave's ass, and lighting it. That's what I think when I think European culture, Call me a pessimist, whatever, but it stuck with me since I read about the Race for Africa.

I guess there's a sort of vindication of survival. White culture, and by consequence have never been oppressed on the basis of race. It's either been nationality or religion. Non Whites, on the other hand, have been subjugated based on their race.

Also, what exactly is "White Culture" ?

Is it aptly described in New Zealand's Stereiogram's White Trash[ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dQ-4IV_8xo)?

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:31 PM

So should people associate 'black pride' with 'fuck the hunky'? You're simply mimicking those who associate islam with extremism. You're bias is showing again I think you should pull up your knickers.

Are there black pride demonstrations where they say "fuck the honky?" The ones I have seen [mostly in black cultural organisations] mostly involve fried chicken or other associated stuff on campus and in local institutions during black history month.

I think demonstrations of white pride suffer from association. When your "pride" is irrevocably linked to men in hoods and burning crosses, not to mention piles of starved dead bodies near concentration camps, its a little hard to look at any mention of it without a sense of unease

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:31 PM

So having been subjugated on the basis of your race is the requirement for a politically correct celebration of racial pride..? ;)

Challenger78

08-10-09, 11:32 PM

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:33 PM

So having been subjugated on the basis of your race is the requirement for a politically correct celebration of racial pride..? ;)

Yes, I would think so. The most fervent expressions of patriotism are seen under occupation. See for example, the Swadeshi movement in India.

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:36 PM

Are there black pride demonstrations where they say "fuck the honky?" The ones I have seen [mostly in black cultural organisations] mostly involve fried chicken or other associated stuff on campus and in local institutions during black history month.

WHAT! What the hell are you talking about? There is a great deal of black on white prejudice it just doesn't equate to racism because there is a lack of power. I have PERSONALLY known african americans to say the worse things about white people like for example that they are 'the devil' that their hair smells like 'dog' when its wet etc.

But this isn't the point is it? That's not what this pride debate is about. Pride does not equate to racism but you somehow have decided that it does. Ethnic pride is an acknowledgment of achievement. So what is wrong with whites simply being proud of their cultural achievements. You are as usual speaking out of your ass.

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:37 PM

So there are white demonstrations that don't say Fuck the nigger ?
Really ?

No, seriously, I'm interested.

Where did I say that there are demonstrations where blacks say this? There are Blacks who DO in fact say this.

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:37 PM

That's inherently racist, SAM. You are making the assumption that when a white person expresses racial pride, he or she intends for it to be an insult to non-whites.

Why is is automatically assumed to be an insult if a white person does it, but it is not an insult if a black person does it..? It's the exact same act being carried out. Is it because blacks are allowed to say and do things that whites are not allowed to say and do... even if the white person meant it in exactly the same context as the black person did..?

Racism again... from blacks towards whites. A double standard based upon ethnicity is racism. :cool:

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:38 PM

Pride does not equate to racism but you somehow have decided that it does

You are making the assumption that when a white person expresses racial pride, he or she intends for it to be an insult to non-whites.

Not me. All the ones who decided that white pride was about "fuck the nigger". I would like to see some demonstrations of white pride that did not involve racism.

Got any examples?

Challenger78

08-10-09, 11:39 PM

Where did I say that there are demonstrations where blacks say this? There are Blacks who DO in fact say this.

I'm asking if there are white demonstrations that don't say "fuck the nigger and everyone else"...

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:39 PM

Such demonstrations are not acceptable in the eyes of non-whites, SAM. That is why we don't see them. It would enrage too many politically correct soothsayers.

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:40 PM

So there are no examples of white pride demonstrations that do not involve racism? But plenty that do?

Why do you suppose that is?

Challenger78

08-10-09, 11:41 PM

Why is is automatically assumed to be an insult if a white person does it, but it is not an insult if a black person does it..? It's the exact same act being carried out. Is it because blacks are allowed to say and do things that whites are not allowed to say and do... even if the white person meant it in exactly the same context as the black person did..?

If you consider the historical injustices reaped upon races of every colour from the white man, an expression of pride in that history is literally saying "fuck you" to the rest of the world.
It would be like germany taking pride in both WWI and WWII.

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:41 PM

Challenger: You know, Somehow literature and arts, don't really compare to celebrating Bastile day, with shoving a dynamite up a black slave's ass, and lighting it. That's what I think when I think European culture, Call me a pessimist, whatever, but it stuck with me since I read about the Race for Africa.

So this is all you see when you think of Bastille Day? The French national holiday is equated with black slaves.
:roflmao:

Challenger: I guess there's a sort of vindication of survival. White culture, and by consequence have never been oppressed on the basis of race. It's either been nationality or religion. Non Whites, on the other hand, have been subjugated based on their race.

So what? Is it okay to be subjugated by the English if you were Irish? Discriminated against? What you think discrimination is worse if one is black?

Challenger: Also, what exactly is "White Culture" ?

European culture.

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:43 PM

I'm asking if there are white demonstrations that don't say "fuck the nigger and everyone else"...

Yes there are demonstrations where white people actually demonstrate against the war in Iraq, or against health care.

Both you and Sam are trolling this thread and attempting to railroad it into a discussion of white oppression when its really about ethnic pride.

Please I don't ever want to hear you or Sam moan again about anti-islam sentiments you are both hypocrites.

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:44 PM

Yes there are demonstrations where white people actually demonstrate against the war in Iraq, or against health care.

Are you seriously suggesting these are examples of demonstrations of white pride? :confused:

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:46 PM

So there are no examples of white pride demonstrations that do not involve racism? But plenty that do?

Why do you suppose that is?

Who spoke of white pride demonstrations? You are speaking specifically about hate groups not about white people.

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:48 PM

If you consider the historical injustices reaped upon races of every colour from the white man, an expression of pride in that history is literally saying "fuck you" to the rest of the world.

Which is a joke, quite honestly. People are people and they act more or less the same given the same cirumstances, regardless of their skin color.

FOR EXAMPLE... Blacks themselves enslaved their own people and sold them off to whites. It should also be noted that Europeans weren't the first ones to buy black slaves... the Arabs were the first to enslave blacks, centuries before any whites did. On BOTH occasions, however, the Africans were the ones who originally enslaved their own people in order to sell them off in exchange for beads, rifles, and venerial disease. Europeans at first rarely ventured into the interior of the continent... because the Africans were perfectly willing to do that nasty work themselves. They would launch raiding expeditions and kill and enslave the villages of tribes who had never once done anything bad to them. The practice of Africans brutalizing their own people in order to enslave them dated far before the Europeans ever gave a hoot about Africa. I wonder why blacks don't cover that little gem of a fact during Black History month..?

Because it's more convenient to blame all of your own failures upon an outside entity... even if that entity no longer exists. That's why.

REMINDER: This does not somehow justify the European's practice of owning slaves... but to blame the white race for visiting horrors on other races is illogical, incorrect, and self-deluded.

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:50 PM

So there are no examples of white pride demonstrations that do not involve racism? But plenty that do?

Why do you suppose that is?

More stupid games from stupid acting posters.

I said why and you know it: such white pride demonstrations are deemed unacceptable by non-whites, whether they involve hate speech or not. We're seeing that in this very thread. :cool:

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:53 PM

More stupid games from stupid acting posters.

I said why and you know it: such white pride demonstrations are deemed unacceptable by non-whites:

But demonstrations where hate speech is made are not?

WillNever

08-10-09, 11:55 PM

You need to read entire posts.

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:55 PM

Check out this debate in another forum:

Ariel wrote:

Black's racism towards white is often called reverse racism because of the oppresion that blacks suffered from whites over hundreds of years.
However, I consider it just plain racism.
We need to stop being racist against all people...All of us should stop. Let's not be jaded and overlook this.

216 Elite wrote: *shakes head*.....So whites aren't racist anymore, lmao!!!!!!! Thats basically what you've just sumarized in so many words, woman CAUSE AND EFFECT, thats all i'm going to tell you, lol, i have no idea what you face in your world, but in mine, these pigs are evil! There is no paradise, quit with the dreaming, and focus on reality!*shakes head*

Black And Proud Forever

http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/T9NRO1O6JU9FRULL3

Here's a clue Sam, you're reasoning is the same as 216 Elite. Just look at the wonderful language he uses to describe whites but he feels JUSTIFIED in his prejudice. I believe its people like the both of you who would ensure a future of bias and division.

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:56 PM

Who spoke of white pride demonstrations?

The OP?

Why is it that blacks can be pro-black without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that Hispanics can be pro-Hispanic without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that almost every single racial and cultural group in America can be pro-their culture or race with out being anti-anybody...

Every group that is, except for whites.

Why is it that being pro-white automatically equates to being anti-everybody else in the eyes of society?

Discuss!

(Waiting to be banned lol)

You are speaking specifically about hate groups not about white people.

No, I'm asking for examples of demonstrations of white pride that do not involve racism against non-whites

Lucysnow

08-10-09, 11:58 PM

White pride? You mean the racist group? Or are you speaking of whites demonstrating?

What does this have to do with ethnic pride?

S.A.M.

08-10-09, 11:59 PM

The OP is insinuiting that whites are not allowed to demonstrate their white pride without being considered racist [see thread title]. I'm asking for an example of such a non-racist white pride demonstration that was shut down. As far as I have seen, no one even shuts down the racist demos.

WillNever

08-11-09, 12:01 AM

Only militants engage in racial hate demonstrations. Every race has them.

However, normal, everyday, non militant white people typically do not engage in white pride demonstrations of any kind. That is because (1) whites are simply so far above and beyond the inferiority complexes that plague non-white communities and (2) such demonstrations would be met with extreme outrage by those non-white communities.

The question has been answered. :cool:

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:01 AM

The OP is insinuiting that whites are not allowed to demonstrate their pride without being considered racist. I'm asking for an example of such a non-racist demonstration that was shut down.

Well its true Sam and you are proof of that. You assume that white pride equates to 'white pride' the racist organization when he is speaking of ethnic pride based on culture.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:05 AM

non militant white people typically do not engage in non-racist white pride demonstrations. That is because (1) whites are simply so far above and beyond the inferiority complexes that plague non-white communities and (2) such demonstrations would be met with extreme outrage by those non-white communities.

Since we have yet to see any examples of nopnwhite outrage over non-racist white demos [including the ones where whites apparently campaigned against the war], I don't see how the question has been answered.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:05 AM

Sam can you please explain this post of yours?

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

Are you saying that european culture hasn't achieved anything and therefore white people have nothing to be proud of?

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:13 AM

And since you have a problem understanding the topic among other things this evening, here is his post again:

"Why is it that blacks can be pro-black without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that Hispanics can be pro-Hispanic without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that almost every single racial and cultural group in America can be pro-their culture or race with out being anti-anybody...

Every group that is, except for whites.

Why is it that being pro-white automatically equates to being anti-everybody else in the eyes of society?

Discuss!"

So where is he speaking of demonstrations?

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:15 AM

Why is it that being pro-white automatically equates to being anti-everybody else in the eyes of society?

Thats why I asked him what he wanted to do that was denied him or considered racist. I have no idea what he is referring to, do you? The only "pro-white" examples I have seen have been demonstrations where White Power is accompanied by hate speech against nonwhites

Challenger78

08-11-09, 12:18 AM

Yes there are demonstrations where white people actually demonstrate against the war in Iraq, or against health care.
.

You misread me. I meant Demonstrations of "white pride".

WillNever

08-11-09, 12:18 AM

Thats why I asked him what he wanted to do that was denied him or considered racist. I have no idea what he is referring to, do you? The only "pro-white" examples I have seen have been demonstrations where White Power is accompanied by hate speech against nonwhites

Perhaps he simply wanted to celebrate the unique accomplishments of the white race throughout history, or whatever it is that blacks say they do in those black history months? Is that so wrong if it's white people saying it?

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:20 AM

No Sam he is asking why is it deemed racist for a white person to express pride in not only being white but white achievement. You know there was a high school student in California a few years back that started a white achievement group to go along with all the other ethnic achievement groups that were in her high school. Do you know the reaction? They decided that it was racist to have a white group and wanted it stopped; its an example of what he is talking about in the OP.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:21 AM

Challenger78

08-11-09, 12:21 AM

So this is all you see when you think of Bastille Day? The French national holiday is equated with black slaves.
:roflmao:

No, colonialism, and the subjugation of Blacks is. To their credit, the french actually raised some concerns about this, after the event, of course.

So what? Is it okay to be subjugated by the English if you were Irish? Discriminated against? What you think discrimination is worse if one is black?

Challenger: Also, what exactly is "White Culture" ?

European culture.
Says who. I'm sure our American friends, not to mention New Zealanders, and Australians would disagree. Actually, I'm sure they'd disagree on a lot of things. Are we talking about modern day white culture, or all the horrendous literature from the past?
To speak of one, is definitely not to speak of the other.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:22 AM

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:22 AM

Who was the "they" who decided that it was racist?

School admin

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 12:22 AM

for example that they are 'the devil' that their hair smells like 'dog' when its wet etc.

that's cool...i never heard that

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:23 AM

Its the second time I have asked you. Sam can you please explain this post of yours?

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

Are you saying that european culture hasn't achieved anything and therefore white people have nothing to be proud of?

I am saying that such demonstrations suffer from past association. Its like naming your kennel club after Hitler, everyone knows he loved dogs, but its hard to ignore the associations.

Challenger78

08-11-09, 12:23 AM

Which is a joke, quite honestly. People are people and they act more or less the same given the same cirumstances, regardless of their skin color.

FOR EXAMPLE... Blacks themselves enslaved their own people and sold them off to whites. It should also be noted that Europeans weren't the first ones to buy black slaves... the Arabs were the first to enslave blacks, centuries before any whites did. On BOTH occasions, however, the Africans were the ones who originally enslaved their own people in order to sell them off in exchange for beads, rifles, and venerial disease. Europeans at first rarely ventured into the interior of the continent... because the Africans were perfectly willing to do that nasty work themselves. They would launch raiding expeditions and kill and enslave the villages of tribes who had never once done anything bad to them. The practice of Africans brutalizing their own people in order to enslave them dated far before the Europeans ever gave a hoot about Africa. I wonder why blacks don't cover that little gem of a fact during Black History month..?

Because it's more convenient to blame all of your own failures upon an outside entity... even if that entity no longer exists. That's why.

REMINDER: This does not somehow justify the European's practice of owning slaves... but to blame the white race for visiting horrors on other races is illogical, incorrect, and self-deluded.

It's not correct to blame everything on the white race. The OP asked for an explanation. I attempted to provide a cultural one. Whether it is correct or not, is not up to an individual to judge, but rather the whole community.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:25 AM

I am saying that such demonstrations suffer from association. Its like naming your kennel club after Hitler, everyone knows he loved dogs, but its hard to ignore the associations.

What demonstrations? You are speaking of demonstrations but no one else is speaking about demonstrations. What did you mean by 'What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?" Why should blacks be proud of being black? I mean what is it that is 'exclusively' black to be proud of?

Are you saying that Americans have the right to treat muslims as terrorits because of past and present associations? Are blacks to be treated as criminals because of past associations?

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:28 AM

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:28 AM

for example that they are 'the devil' that their hair smells like 'dog' when its wet etc.

that's cool...i never heard that

I know its weird. The first time someone said that to me I was :eek: and then :jawdrop:

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:29 AM

I am talking about demonstrations of white pride, like the kennel club. e.g. if I were to see a person wearing a button that said black pride, I'd assume he belonged to some black culture club. However, if I saw someone with a button that said white pride, I would first want to ascertain that he wasn't a neo-nazi. This is just common sense, since the vast majority of "white priders" are neo-nazis.

What demonstrations? You are speaking of demonstrations but no one else is speaking about demonstrations. What did you mean by 'What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?" Why should blacks be proud of being black? I mean what is it that is 'exclusively' black to be proud of?

Are you saying that Americans have the right to treat muslims as terrorits because of past and present associations? Are blacks to be treated as criminals because of past associations?

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:31 AM

Does repeating the question elicit different responses?

I've already answered what I meant/

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:35 AM

Does repeating the question elicit different responses?

I've already answered what I meant/

No you haven't answered the question. You, as usual, are avoiding the question. You speak of past associations so I am asking you if you saying that Americans have the right to think of and treat muslims as terrorits because of past and present associations? Are blacks to be treated and thought of as criminals because of past associations?

You keep bringing up demonstrations when no one has brought up demonstrations. You really haven't answered what you mean by "What are you proud of that is 'exclusively white'. Not at all.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:35 AM

And I said, they are. Thats what past association means.

If you are not "demonstrating" white pride, there is no need to worry about social approval.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:38 AM

No one is speaking of demonstrations you are. Do you need to re-read the OP? I think it may help. Again with past associations I ask you this?

You speak of past associations so I am asking you if you saying that Americans have the right to think of and treat muslims as terrorits because of past and present associations? Are blacks to be treated and thought of as criminals because of past associations?

Are you saying its ok to say whites should not have pride because of past associations?

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:41 AM

WillNever

08-11-09, 12:41 AM

I am talking about demonstrations of white pride, like the kennel club. e.g. if I were to see a person wearing a button that said black pride, I'd assume he belonged to some black culture club. However, if I saw someone with a button that said white pride, I would first want to ascertain that he wasn't a neo-nazi. This is just common sense, since the vast majority of "white priders" are neo-nazis.

SAM... I feel forced to point out that racial profiling (and indeed, most other forms of racism) are based on the method you are describing yourself using here: the use of a generally experienced trend being used to treat people of a different race in a different way. Let me explain why.

Police officers will often try to justify cases of racial profiling when they questions blacks on suspicion of drug dealing or carrying weapons. They explain it away with "Well, you can't blame me for being more suspicious of blacks. More of them just happen to be criminals, in my experience."

That may be the case... but we still condemn racial profiling on the basis of past experience with black criminals.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:44 AM

I was merely attempting to answer the OP, if you have a better explanation, go for it. Myself, I have yet to see a demonstration of white pride that was not racist [I have seen three that were] or a black one that was. So I can only go by my own experience in this regard

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:45 AM

Why don't you try it out?

Wear a patch like this n your person:

And let me know how its perceived.

Sam you are not keeping to the point. THAT represents an organization this is not about extremism nor is it about hate groups. Or are you saying that being proud of being white is hateful? What you are doing is like putting up a swastika because someone asks why is it wrong to be proud of being german. In other words german pride=nazi

Again I ask, you speak of past associations so I am asking you if you saying that Americans have the right to think of and treat muslims as terrorits because of past and present associations? Are blacks to be treated and thought of as criminals because of past associations?

Are you saying whites should not have pride because of past associations?

AGAIN no one is speaking of demonstrations except YOU!!!!

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 12:49 AM

Are you saying whites should not have pride because of past associations?

Frankly just saying "white pride" puts one into mind of ugly neo-nazi demonstrations. Maybe whites could come up with an alternate term.

AGAIN no one is speaking of demonstrations except YOU!!!!

Perhaps that is a legacy of my association with the term

white pride = neonazi demonstrations.

Japarican

08-11-09, 12:51 AM

I would have to agree with SAM. I just feel the general public will not receive it so well if white pride was started. Unfortunately, people tend to make assumptions based on past associations.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:53 AM

Frankly just saying "white pride" puts one into mind of ugly neo-nazi demonstrations. Maybe whites could come up with an alternate term.

Perhaps that is a legacy of my association with the term

white pride = neonazi demonstrations.

And that is the point of the OP. He is saying that pride in being white is immediately equated with racism.

But again no one is speaking of demonstrations so for you to keep bringing it up is just a form of trolling, distracting from the OP so it is about racism=white pride.

Congratulations you have proven his point.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 12:54 AM

I would have to agree with SAM. I just feel the general public will not receive it so well if white pride was started. Unfortunately, people tend to make assumptions based on past associations.

I know which is why she shouldn't be so pissed off when americans make associations between muslims and terrorists. Its only natural right? :shrug:

Japarican

08-11-09, 12:58 AM

Yes, you are absolutely right. I suppose it's only natural for her to defend her beliefs just like you are now. We all feel strongly about certain things that pertain to us. We are only human. Sometimes it can make us a bit hypocritical.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:00 AM

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:01 AM

And that is the point of the OP. He is saying that pride in being white is immediately equated with racism.

But again no one is speaking of demonstrations so for you to keep bringing it up is just a form of trolling, distracting from the OP so it is about racism=white pride.

Congratulations you have proven his point.

I didn't realise it needed to be proven.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:05 AM

Well you see the fact is that YOU equate white's with racism Sam but you get your knickers in a twist if anyone has anyone makes negative associations with your lot. The fact is that its hypocritical and OPPRESSIVE to say or infer that whites should not have pride in their ethnicity and cultural heritage. So yeah you're a hypocrite and dare I say prejudiced.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:10 AM

I didn't create the associations with white pride anymore than I did the one with Islamic terrorism. But you can be sure that if Muslims get profiled for terrorism, there is very little I can do about it. And thats inspite of the fact that people have met many Muslims who are not terrorists, while I have yet to meet anyone who self identifies with white pride and is not a neo-nazi.

Pandaemoni

08-11-09, 01:11 AM

Why is it that blacks can be pro-black without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that Hispanics can be pro-Hispanic without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that almost every single racial and cultural group in America can be pro-their culture or race with out being anti-anybody...

Every group that is, except for whites.

The answer is "history." Historically speaking, groups of white people coming together based on race has had certain tendencies. The reason is that white people have power, and when you come together in a group that as power, there is a tendency to exercise it.

When blacks and gays come together on the basis of their common traits, the result is usually a group that lacks political power, and do the only thing they have is a social impact--they speak. Sometimes those groups are intolerant too, but at the end of the day they only are there to jabber on. If there were a long history of serious oppression of whites, white pride events would be just as acceptable.

Couple that with the fact that every existing white pride group that anyone has ever heard of believe in straight up racial superiority of the white race or they believe that the races must be physically separated into their own nations (and, really, that whites are superior anyway, at least by any standard that whites care about).

Plus further consider that whites presently have all the power. Imagine how unseemly it would be if there were a "Well Bred Pride" movement, where people from long-established, powerful and wealthy families got together and celebrated their disproportionate impact on the world and their role in U.S. and world history. Does anyone want to hear from some scion of the Rockefellers or Rothschilds talk about how great it is to be in his family, and how because of all the power his family has accumulated, he has his pick of jobs and mansions, and how he can still get his congressman/MP on the phone with a single phone call based on his name alone? The answer is "not really." No one wants to hear about how awesome it has been having power on the basis of the genetic lottery, and then all the stuff your family got to do with that power.

I think it is tolerable to hear the the segregated and less powerful segments of society chime in with a "and we helped!" But hearing the powerful talk about how their power enables them to do so very much, is, again, unseemly.

The argument seems to be that there should be exact parity between the races. If blacks can do it, so can whites. If blacks can use the word "nigger" white should be allowed too. If Carlos Mencia can make fun of Mexicans, whites should be able to. If the NAACP can operate openly and have national status, then so should white pride groups. If there's a Black History Month, then there should be a White History Month.

That's certainly "fair" in the very abstract, but in the real world our history and contexts are not "fair" in the same way. The socio-historical context matters, and simply arguing for exact parity ignores the that social and historical context in which the differences arose.

The truth is, right now, I cannot imagine a need to express pride in the white race. Caucasian accomplishments seem to advertise themselves pretty well, and no one is confused about were the power base of the west currently lays. No one "forgets" that the West is composed mostly of whites and anyone who glosses over their contributions to western history is producing a laughably bad version of western history (if it is intended to be comprehensive at all, at least). The main reason I can conceive to express white pride is as a counter to other kinds of pride, because you are tired of hearing of their contributions and want to remind them of the rest of history for a bit. (Stated differently, to remind them who was really in charge while they tinkered at the edges). As such any "white pride" movement probably will consist of 1 intellectually interested person and 99 racists who feel threatened by a perceived loss of power.

There are two bad things about "black power". The first is that they feel so marginalized and insecure that they feel the need to assert it at all, for fear people would forget their heritage. The second is that our culture has so beaten them down, that they take pride in the accomplishments of others unrelated to them save for the fact that they share "race." It's like being proud that a Nobel Prize winner lives in you city: it doesn't say anything about you or your accomplishments. That said, we held them down on the basis of race, so it is to be expected that they would develop a perceived bond on that basis, even if it is irrational.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:13 AM

I didn't create the associations with white pride anymore than I did the one with Islamic terrorism. But you can be sure that if Muslims get profiled for terrorism, there is very little I can do about it.

Oh really. Is that your excuse? Americans didn't create the associations between islam and terrorism, it seems muslim past and present actions did. Is that the reasoning you were using?

You IMMEDIATELY jumped in and thought hate group. You IMMEDIATELY made a glib remark asking what it was he had to be proud of. I say that this shows your own bias. Well its all fair you know, I mean associations being what they are, to not only profile muslims but to see them as backward and violent. Toche Sam sometimes you drown your own arguments.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:14 AM

I didn't immediately do anything. I actually asked Mz what he was being denied pride in. I think you're the one who took offense to that

What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

Wow that's so insulting. Are you saying that european culture hasn't achieved anything and therefore white people have nothing to be proud of? If someone had said this to a person of colour you would have been upset right?

I can just see you saying to a black person 'what exactly are you proud of that is exclusively 'black'. Hmm.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:16 AM

I didn't immediately do anything. I actually asked Mz what he was being denied pride in. I think you're the one who took offense to that

One should take offense. You asked what there was to be proud of that was exclusively white, I would have been offended had you asked that to someone who was black. It was a off-handed insult.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:18 AM

One should take offense. You asked what there was to be proud of that was exclusively white, I would have been offended had you asked that to someone who was black. It was a off-handed insult.

I wouldn't need to ask anyone who was black. I already know what they are proud of. Overcoming this:

http://www.fairspeech.com/ctl/segregated%20water%20fountain.jpg

Thats what they take pride in. I have seen it myself at black pride events. African students wept when Obama was elected.

It was a moment of vindication, of regaining their dignity.

http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/law/obama_time_cover_102306.jpg

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:23 AM

Is that all there is to take pride in? You only associate black achievement with THAT? Not with the writers and poets, musicians and scholars

Langston hughes,

James Baldwin and

Miles Davis

Duke Ellington

Zora neale Hurston

and the legendary black cardiac pioneer Vivien Thomas

Would all be rolling in their grave. Black pride is about black achievement in CULTURE. Now I see your prejudice extends deeper than even you realize.

You're a condescending *so and so*

Oh yeah and they had reason to be proud waaay before Obama came along you #$&@!

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:25 AM

Not with the writers and poets, musicians and scholars

As compared to being elected the most powerful man in the world by a vast number of whites? Not even close. Black students improved in grades immediately after the election.

Revenge of the Black Nerd
Finally, an end to the myth that being bookish means you’re “acting white.”
http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/52025/

I wonder what Mz feels is comparable to this in white pride.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:26 AM

As compared to being elected the most powerful man in the world by a vast number of whites? Not even close. Black students improved in grades immediately after the election.

I wonder what Mz feels is comparable to this in white pride.

Oh so blacks had nothing to be proud of before Obama? Well if you're criteria is being a powerful world leader then MZ has a chock full to to be proud of

Japarican

08-11-09, 01:27 AM

Langston hughes,

James Baldwin and

Miles Davis

Duke Ellington

Zora neale Hurston

and the legendary black cardiac pioneer Vivien Thomas

Nice list. Very brillant people

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:28 AM

Oh so blacks had nothing to be proud of before Obama?

I'm sure they did. It was called "acting white"

Well if you're criteria is being a powerful world leader then MZ has a chock full to to be proud of

Especially with a German heritage :p

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:28 AM

Second insult. You seem to think that everything before Obama in african american history is irrelevant.

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:30 AM

I'm sure they did. It was called "acting white"

Especially with a German heritage :p

So ALL the people who were bright and accomplished BEFORE Obama were 'acting white'?
:roflmao:

So you ARE a racist. Keep talking. I'm loving it. You dig a deeper hole with every post.

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:30 AM

I think you skipped a few posts there. It wasn't just African-Americans who wept at Obama's election. It was blacks, from as far away as Kenya and the Dominican Republic.

So ALL the people who were bright and accomplished BEFORE Obama were 'acting white'?
So you ARE a racist

Me and all the other people who saw it as a landmark in black history.

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 01:31 AM

don't the dots have some sort of caste system...

ohhh..The Caste system does not demarcate racial division. Caste system is a social division of people of the same race :rolleyes:

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:32 AM

Yeah how about that? The Brahmins are killing themselves over discrimination :p

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:33 AM

I think you skipped a few posts there. It wasn't just African-Americans who wept at Obama's election. It was blacks.

So you know of no other accomplished african american before Obama?

Oh what did these poor blacks ever have to be proud of before that:rolleyes:

You're a passive bigot sam and you don't even realize it. Next you'll be saying how nice it is that there is a black president who can set and example by speaking proper English. :bravo:

S.A.M.

08-11-09, 01:37 AM

I see the situation of whites as analogous to the Brahmins in post independence India. Frankly, I have as much sympathy for the one as for the other/

The reverse discrimination is rooted in Indian history and politics. For decades, Brahmins were resented for their dominance of the government, economy and culture. Indeed, political parties in Tamil Nadu sprang from anti-Brahmin feelings. “If you see a Brahmin and a snake, kill the Brahmin first” was an old slogan.

A national constitution adopted in 1950 reserved more than 20% of government jobs for lower castes. In 1990, an additional 27% were set aside for what were called “other backward castes.” Some states set higher quotas, including Tamil Nadu, which reserves 69% of government jobs for lower castes and other needy groups.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the reverse discrimination against Brahmins has induced some members of this community to migrate to the West or look for opportunities in the business world that was once the mainstay of the Vaishya caste.

The French evangelist and Christian bigot Abbe Dubois, who traveled widely in South India in the late 18th century and early 19th century, had this to say about the Brahmins in his lengthy work Hindu Manners, Customs and Ceremonies:

Naturally cunning, wily, double-tongued, and servile, they turn the most undesirable qualities to account by insinuating themselves everywhere; their main object, upon which they expend the greatest ingenuity, being to gain access to the courts of princes or other people of high rank.

Brahmins once dominated the elite Indian Civil Service and in post-independent India, the Indian Administrative Service but their numbers in the bureaucracy are now dwindling.

http://indiablogs.searchindia.com/2007/12/29/wall-street-journal-discovers-sorry-plight-of-brahmins/

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 01:40 AM

I see the situation of whites as analogous to the Brahmins in post independence India. Frankly, I have as much sympathy for the one as for the other/

Oh please save us your analogies. :rolleyes:

There is no analogy between Brahmins and whites unless you mean to infer that all whites are racist and that all of European cultural heritage is racist.

Insult three.

Go on soon you'll be batting a hundred.

And would you mind sticking to the OP. This isn't a place for YOUR regional issues.

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 01:53 AM

damn... you hens like to go at it ;)

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 02:07 AM

male pride.....grrrrrrr

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 02:08 AM

male pride.....grrrrrrr

Now don't start:D

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 02:16 AM

best thing if you encounter racism is to keep moving forward

yeah ..you'll hold your own types..but try not to express them at individual levels

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 02:20 AM

True.

Well I for one think men should be proud. I like men. Real men. All that rationality and muscularity:D

Like Oliver Reed

Someone actually told me once that he thought I was like oliver reed in a woman's body. I liked that compliment.:p

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 02:24 AM

so can I get your phone number after the show .....lol

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 02:25 AM

oh..here it is

"If a man hasn't found something to die for he isn't fit to live"

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 02:48 AM

so can I get your phone number after the show .....lol

Very funny.

What do you mean by the quote?

MZ3Boy84

08-11-09, 10:44 AM

Wow. This thread blew the hell up over night. Thanks to all who participated and is still. And a special thanks to WillNever and Lucysnow for having the intelligence enough to fully comprehend the message in my original post.

And what the hell, and thank you SAM for further proving my point.

Keep talking, I'm enjoying this quite a lot.

John99

08-11-09, 11:02 AM

Slysoon

08-11-09, 01:23 PM

What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

White pride revolves around the uniqueness of the various rich cultures of European-derived peoples, their eloquent languages and cuisines, their astounding contributions to the fields of science, mathematics, and astronomy, their world-renowned beauty and uniqueness as a people, and their disproportionate contributions of polymaths and geniuses to the world. Black pride groups share a very similar philosophy, in that they promote the richness of African cultures, the uniqueness of the appearances of African peoples, the contributions of African-derived peopes to the world, and so on.

I wouldn't need to ask anyone who was black. I already know what they are proud of. Overcoming this:

http://www.fairspeech.com/ctl/segregated%20water%20fountain.jpg

Thats what they take pride in. I have seen it myself at black pride events. African students wept when Obama was elected.

It was a moment of vindication, of regaining their dignity.

I'll bite.

First and foremost, "I already know what they are proud of. Overcoming this: ..." implies overcoming segregation in the United States was a battle waged and won by African-derived peoples. The reality behind the matter is that Jews - who have unrivalled group cohesion and activity - in America were almost exclusively responsible for the political and economic organization of African-derived peoples in the United States in the post-World War II era and their subsequent political victories.

Let us begin with the fundamentals: the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People) was founded intellectually and financially by American Jewish activists who were also at the time largely responsible for the embodiment and activities of the anti-restrictionist organizations in the United States. By nineteen-fifteen, brothers Joel and Arthur Spingarn were serving as board chairman and chief legal counsel of the NAACP, respectively; Herbert Lehman on the executive committee; Lillian Wald and Walter Sachs on the board. Financially, the association was supported by Jacob Schiff and Paul Warburg. By the nineteen-twenties, Herbert Seligman was director of public relations, and Martha Greuning his assistant. Until 1933, there was not a single African American lawyer in the NAACP legal department, which is astonishing considering the assosiation began in the early nineteen-hundreds. But perhaps what is most startling is the fact that the NAACP did not elect an African American president until 1975, over a decade after the Civil Rights Act; from the association's inception in 1909, nearly every president had been Jewish. Even Marcus Garvey stormed out of the NAACP's headquarters at one time, mumbling it was a "White organization".

Similar to the NAACP's Jewish roots is the NUL (National Urban League). Levering-Lewis wrote, " Edwin Seligman's chairmanship, and the presence on the board of Felix Adler, Lillian Wald, Abraham Lefkowitz, and, shortly thereafter, Julius Rosenwald, principal Sears, Roebuck Company stockholder, forecast significant Jewish contributions to the League". Prominent Jewish organizations which were involved in issues important to African-derived peoples of the United States were the American Jewish Committee, American Jewish Congress, and of course, the Anti-Defamation League. Civil rights groups functioning in the nineteen-sixties received between two thirds and three quarters of their money from American Jews. Jewish groups, who "with professionally trained personnel, fully equipped offices, and public relations know-how, they had the resources to make a difference" - according to Milton Friedman - played the leading role in drafting civil rights legislation and pursuing legal challenges for the apparent benefit of African-Americans.

Levering-Lewis notes: "Jewish support, legal and monetary, afforded the civil rights movement a string of legal victories ... There is little exaggertion in an American Jewish Congress lawyer's claim that 'many of these laws were actually written in the offices of Jewish agencies by Jewish staff people, introduced by Jewish legislators and pressured into being by Jewish voters'".

Lucysnow

08-11-09, 04:11 PM

Slysoon: The reality behind the matter is that Jews - who have unrivalled group cohesion and activity - in America were almost exclusively responsible for the political and economic organization of African-derived peoples in the United States in the post-World War II era and their subsequent political victories.

Excellent point.

mike47

08-11-09, 04:25 PM

best thing if you encounter racism is to keep moving forward

yeah ..you'll hold your own types..but try not to express them at individual levels

Every society has some sort of racism in it . Racism is not born over night . It is influenced by religion, nationality, history, language, heritage, colour.....etc . To deny the existence of racism is like denying the existence of air around us . In my City we have many blacks and Somalis .....and lots of them are really racist against others . When you teach kids that our religion, language, customs, traditions, nationality....etc are better than others'....what do you expect ?!.

spidergoat

08-11-09, 04:35 PM

There are white groups that celebrate ethnic pride, but they are Polish, Italian, Jewish, etc. The only reason there aren't more specialized black groups is that slavery destroyed ethnic awareness, and so blacks share the same sort of experiences. In modern times, generic celebration of whiteness is associated only with supremecists.

Challenger78

08-11-09, 04:35 PM

You know, white pride could be seen as racism because it represents a still continued white dominance, that everyone sees but no one is willing to admit (In australia anyway), and black pride, the mere fact that they're able to express that pride without having a baton jammed up their ass, is seen as progress.

John99

08-11-09, 04:45 PM

The only reason there aren't more specialized black groups is that slavery destroyed ethnic awareness, and so blacks share the same sort of experiences. In modern times, generic celebration of whiteness is associated only with supremecists.

In the U.S there are many specialized celebrations. There is West Indian and Jamaican Day etc. It all depends on the group and if they want to organize one, i dont know if there are any Asian (China\Japanese) but there are various Chinese New Year celebrations.

spidergoat

08-11-09, 04:47 PM

Yes, but West Indians and Jamaicans are relative newcomers to the American scene.

John99

08-11-09, 04:49 PM

Every society has some sort of racism in it . Racism is not born over night . It is influenced by religion, nationality, history, language, heritage, colour.....etc . To deny the existence of racism is like denying the existence of air around us . In my City we have many blacks and Somalis .....and lots of them are really racist against others . When you teach kids that our religion, language, customs, traditions, nationality....etc are better than others'....what do you expect ?!.

they are confusing being proud of their origins with racism. when i was younger i was more aware of my country of origin but now i dont really care about that aspect so i really have no ethnic roots any longer.

mike47

08-11-09, 04:49 PM

You know, white pride could be seen as racism because it represents a still continued white dominance, that everyone sees but no one is willing to admit (In Australia anyway), and black pride, the mere fact that they're able to express that pride without having a baton jammed up their ass, is seen as progress.
When it comes to crimes and corruption, I am sure blacks and whites have equal share....:D .

John99

08-11-09, 04:50 PM

Yes, but West Indians and Jamaicans are relative newcomers to the American scene.

exactly. they are still more aware of their home country because many\most are first and second generation.

John99

08-11-09, 04:55 PM

When it comes to crimes and corruption, I am sure blacks and whites have equal share....:D .

oh yeah. no one has a monopoly on crimninal behavior. but isnt that the essence of racism?

iceaura

08-11-09, 06:36 PM

White pride revolves around the uniqueness of the various rich cultures of European-derived peoples, their eloquent languages and cuisines, their astounding contributions to the fields of science, mathematics, and astronomy, their world-renowned beauty and uniqueness as a people, and their disproportionate contributions of polymaths and geniuses to the world. I have never seen an organization, holiday, or event labeled "white pride" with that as its central content.

There would be no attraction of "black pride" for anyone if the ethnic category "black" - with no differentiation by racial or ethnic origin at the time - had not been created. And it was created by brute force, deliberately, between about 1750 and about 1850 in the Americas.

"Black" in the US exactly corresponds to Scottish or French or German or Irish in the US - it's an ancestral cultural identity, derived from and dating to the people of a specific region and time: New World plantation slavery. It does not correspond to "white", which has no ancestral cultural unity.

Doreen

08-11-09, 08:56 PM

In response to the

IF BLACK PEOPLE CAN USE NIGGER WHY CAN'T I THAT'S RACISM TOO

'logic'

A lesson in Wittgenstein's idea that meaning is use:

A friend of yours has been waiting for you at the movie theater, sees you arriving late.

Asshole, you're late.

You are playing basketball with the same friend. You drop a nice J over his hands.

Asshole.

He say, smiling and shaking his head, then he laughs.

A big guy you do not know is standing leaning on a building as you walk past late at night.

Asshole.

He says.

Your mother sees you spill some milk and calls you an

Asshole.

Same word, different situations, different relationships. Entirely different meanings.

ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SPEECH ACTS.

Imagine how 'needle dick' would feel coming from a variety of different people, men, women, people you know, people you do not know. If it is in front of a group of men or a group of women. If the woman who say it is your ex. Etc.

And notice how a friend calling you asshole can even be affectionate, but the issue is not simple. I do not think anyone's mother can pull off calling her child asshole and it comes off OK.

You can whine that you are somehow being discriminated against for not being able to use nigger in front of black people. Or what you are really asking is you want to use it and they don't get angry
and this comes off so naive,
not just about the philosophy of language
but about what is really going on in yourself.

PieAreSquared

08-11-09, 08:58 PM

Very funny.

What do you mean by the quote?

it's who made the quote ;)

takethewarhome

08-11-09, 09:07 PM

It, like everything else in the world, is the product of steriotype and how people associate some idea in their mind with another, even if this 'other' idea is completely unfounded and obsolete.

Its doomed to reccur again and agiain. At least I see no end in sight....

Ganymede

08-12-09, 12:36 PM

John99

08-12-09, 01:02 PM

Gmede, you cant be serious.

Ganymede

08-12-09, 01:17 PM

Gmede, you cant be serious.

Name one?

John99

08-12-09, 01:26 PM

Liebling

08-12-09, 01:27 PM

Dr. Martin Luther King

So respected in fact, that we have a National Holiday to honor him.

How about Fredrick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Zora Neale Hurston...

Still alive you ask?

Colin Powell, Charlayne Hunter-Gault, and August Wilson to name a few.

All of them respected by the "White community", and all of them champion pride in their own race.

Enmos

08-12-09, 01:30 PM

Cowboy

08-12-09, 01:43 PM

Thats what they take pride in. I have seen it myself at black pride events. African students wept when Obama was elected.

It was a moment of vindication, of regaining their dignity.

http://www.patentlyo.com/patent/law/obama_time_cover_102306.jpg

Obama is half-white. I hope those students were only crying out of one eye.

Cowboy

08-12-09, 01:45 PM

What exactly are you proud of that is exclusively "white"?

The cultural, technological and intellectual achievements of Ancient Greece and Rome? Classical music? Renaissance art? Flight? Automobiles/motorcycles? Space flight?

Ganymede

08-12-09, 01:50 PM

Dr. Martin Luther King

So respected in fact, that we have a National Holiday to honor him.

You're confusing Black people with pro Black? Do you know the definition of pro Black? Malcom X was pro Black, MLK wasn't.

How about Fredrick Douglass, Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Zora Neale Hurston...

Name one deed they participated in that sought to subjugate other races?

Still alive you ask?

Colin Powell, Charlayne Hunter-Gault, and August Wilson to name a few.

All of them respected by the "White community", and all of them champion pride in their own race.

Once again you're confusing Black people with pro Black people. Pro Black would be the New Black Panther party for example.

Ganymede

08-12-09, 01:51 PM

The cultural, technological and intellectual achievements of Ancient Greece and Rome? Classical music? Renaissance art? Flight? Automobiles/motorcycles? Space flight?

Are you that much of a loser where you have to live through the accomplishments of your ancestors to feel good about yourself? What have you done to better society?

Liebling

08-12-09, 02:05 PM

You're confusing Black people with pro Black? Do you know the definition of pro Black? Malcom X was pro Black, MLK wasn't.

Actually, I think that you are confusing Pro-Black people with Race Extremists. Ones who advocate violence and hatred towards any race that isn't black because of a perception (real or imagined) of being held back.

All of the people I mentioned are Pro-Black individuals, with goals to futher and enhance the culture and standing of the black community. The ones you mentioned aren't pro-black in as much as they are anti-white.

I am certainly not confused at all. Sometimes, people get so wrapped up in their pride that they are more interested in the conflict than the cause. And that's when they aren't respected anymore, even by the a great number of their own claimed culture.

Cowboy

08-12-09, 02:32 PM

Are you that much of a loser where you have to live through the accomplishments of your ancestors to feel good about yourself? What have you done to better society?

Do you ask that of black people who support black pride?

Betrayer0fHope

08-12-09, 02:37 PM

Wow that's so insulting. Are you saying that european culture hasn't achieved anything and therefore white people have nothing to be proud of? If someone had said this to a person of colour you would have been upset right?

I can just see you saying to a black person 'what exactly are you proud of that is exclusively 'black'. Hmm.

The entire notion of being proud of genetic traits is stupid. Unless you've been discriminated against. Simple. You say you're not ashamed of being black/brown/whatever. I think that's great. When someone says I'm proud to be white, it gives a different message because they've never been discriminated against. Of course, if they have, for being white, then I support them as well. Simple and intuitive stuff.

Betrayer0fHope

08-12-09, 02:40 PM

Obama is half-white. I hope those students were only crying out of one eye.

Stupidest post I've seen in a while.

Cowboy

08-12-09, 02:43 PM

The entire notion of being proud of genetic traits is stupid. Unless you've been discriminated against. Simple. You say you're not ashamed of being black/brown/whatever. I think that's great. When someone says I'm proud to be white, it gives a different message because they've never been discriminated against. Of course, if they have, for being white, then I support them as well. Simple and intuitive stuff.

Stupidest post I've seen in a while.

1) White people have been discriminated against. Sometimes by other whites, sometimes by people of other races.

2) You either believe that pride in one's heritage is acceptable or your don't. Saying it's okay for some but not for others is just another of the many double standards I've seen in this thread.

nietzschefan

08-12-09, 02:47 PM

I have not gotten several jobs because I am a white man.

That IS racism and sexism. It is not only a white man's disease.

iceaura

08-12-09, 02:56 PM

The cultural, technological and intellectual achievements of Ancient Greece and Rome? Classical music? Renaissance art? Best be careful there - a lot of those guys weren't exactly "white", and a lot of historical revision has muddied (or whitened) the waters.
Obama is half-white. Obama is black, in the US. (He'd probably be white, in Brazil). Parentage has little or nothing to do with it.
2) You either believe that pride in one's heritage is acceptable or your don't. There is no such thing as white heritage. If the slave owners had not created "black" as a category, and destroyed the ancestral ethnic ties of the members of that category, and substituted a common heritage of slavery and subsequent "racial" oppression, there would be no US black heritage either.

Lucysnow

08-12-09, 02:57 PM

The entire notion of being proud of genetic traits is stupid. Unless you've been discriminated against. Simple. You say you're not ashamed of being black/brown/whatever. I think that's great. When someone says I'm proud to be white, it gives a different message because they've never been discriminated against. Of course, if they have, for being white, then I support them as well. Simple and intuitive stuff.

Wrong. Its not just pride in ones' 'genetic traits' its also about culture. The fact that one cannot say they are proud of their race is rubbish. You can say you are proud of being black or american indian but not white? And the fact that there is a history of racism is besides the point. Every group on earth has been guilty of something against someone at some point but it doesn't mean they should feel shame for who they are.

Cowboy

08-12-09, 02:59 PM

Best be careful there - a lot of those guys weren't exactly "white", and a lot of historical revision has muddied (or whitened) the waters.
Obama is black, in the US. (He'd probably be white, in Brazil). Parentage has little or nothing to do with it.

Obama is biracial anywhere in the world. Different cultures/societies may choose to classify him as otherwise, but facts are facts.

iceaura

08-12-09, 03:29 PM

Obama is biracial anywhere in the world. Different cultures/societies may choose to classify him as otherwise, but facts are facts There are no facts involved other than the way a given society classifies him.

There are no "races" other than those classifications. He is "biracial" nowhere except where the local society/culture classifies him as "biracial". I know of no such culture these days - in the past, I think South Africa had some such classification?

In the US he is black.

Ganymede

08-12-09, 04:37 PM

i cant believe you are even asking me this.

one would be the President, would not have been elected if it was not for millions of white people voting for him. hundreds of others who are famous like oprah and people in sports and professional careers. do i have to name them? this is kind of silly. it would be poinless to name only people i know.

Once again you're talking about a Black person not a pro-black person. Minister Farrakhan is what you call pro Black. Barack Obama isn't pro Black.

Lucysnow

08-12-09, 05:19 PM

There are no facts involved other than the way a given society classifies him.

There are no "races" other than those classifications. He is "biracial" nowhere except where the local society/culture classifies him as "biracial". I know of no such culture these days - in the past, I think South Africa had some such classification?

In the US he is black.

If someone is bi-racial but looks white are they then called white? How does it work? I know there is the 'one drop' rule. Does the one drop rule still apply in the U.S?

takethewarhome

08-12-09, 05:44 PM

If someone is bi-racial but looks white are they then called white? How does it work? I know there is the 'one drop' rule. Does the one drop rule still apply in the U.S?

One drop rule? What is this rule?

Ganymede

08-12-09, 06:45 PM

One drop rule? What is this rule?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plessy_v._Ferguson

iceaura

08-12-09, 06:45 PM

If someone is bi-racial but looks white are they then called white? Yes.

They are in fact white, as long as they maintain that identity. In the old days, it used to be called "passing" - it was a way out of the ghetto - and was common. The price was more or less disowning your family.

Lucysnow

08-12-09, 06:47 PM

Yes.

They are in fact white. In the old days, it used to be called "passing" - it was a way out of the ghetto - and was common. The price was more or less disowning your family.

Does this mean the one drop rule no longer applies?

iceaura

08-12-09, 06:54 PM

Does this mean the one drop rule no longer applies? Irrelevant.

Lucysnow

08-12-09, 07:00 PM

Irrelevant.

How is it irrelevant? I just want to know if the one drop rule is still used in the U.S to determine race.

Cowboy

08-13-09, 09:07 AM

There are no facts involved other than the way a given society classifies him.

There are no "races" other than those classifications. He is "biracial" nowhere except where the local society/culture classifies him as "biracial". I know of no such culture these days - in the past, I think South Africa had some such classification?

In the US he is black.

He is half white and half black. That means his background includes two races, making him biracial. Are you saying he could be considered "Asian", if that's how some person or group of people want to arbitrarily classify him?

mike47

08-13-09, 09:11 AM

He is half white and half black. That means his background includes two races, making him biracial. Are you saying he could be considered "Asian", if that's how some person or group of people want to arbitrarily classify him?

His mother American and his father African so he is African American .
Kenya is in Africa and not Asia.....:shrug: .

Cowboy

08-13-09, 10:02 AM

His mother American and his father African so he is African American .
Kenya is in Africa and not Asia.....:shrug: .

His mother is white, his father is black. That means biracial.

The comment about Asia was regarding the legitimacy of disregarding someone's actual heritage in favor of social perceptions.

jessiej920

08-17-09, 01:58 PM

White culture, and by consequence have never been oppressed on the basis of race. It's either been nationality or religion. Non Whites, on the other hand, have been subjugated based on their race.

Also, what exactly is "White Culture" ?

But it's okay for white people to be oppressed on basis of nationality??? That makes no sense. It's still racism. You could hate all black people or you could hate someone who is Nigerian...is that not still racism?

You ask what white culture is. Well, there is no such thing because "white" is just an all-encompassing term used to identify people of European nationality and descent who come from completely different countries, cultures and heritages. As an Irish/Norwegian do you think my culture is the same as my friend from Romania? No. But we're both considered "white". There's no special race box for us to check when we fill out forms...we just get "White". Am I nothing, but the color of my skin? Everybody hates to be identified thusly.

2Pac said it best. "It ain't about Black or White because we're HUMAN"

It's time to end the war between white and black.

visceral_instinct

08-17-09, 02:22 PM

spidergoat

08-17-09, 02:33 PM

Name one pro-black person in America that has any support outside of the Black Community? Anyone who comes close to fitting that description such as Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson are reviled in White community.

Bill Clinton

iceaura

08-17-09, 02:55 PM

How is it irrelevant? I just want to know if the one drop rule is still used in the U.S to determine race. It is not. There are and have always been a lot of white people in the US who would be black people if the one drop rule had ever been widely and seriously applied.
His mother is white, his father is black. That means biracial. His mother was classified as white by US society, regardless of her parentage. His father was classified as black by US society, regardless of his parentage. Obama is classified as black by US society, regardless of his parentage (about which there have been any number of rumors, from a Black Panther official to the genetically melded Muhammed Ali, none of which would affect his racial status). There is no such societal classification as "biracial" in the US. If there were a whole lot of white people and most of the black people would be in it - not just a few like Obama.

Lucysnow

08-17-09, 03:33 PM

It is not. There are and have always been a lot of white people in the US who would be black people if the one drop rule had ever been widely and seriously applied.

But it was seriously applied. Its was utilized to keep people from engaging in miscegenation. It only applies to children of black and white parents and it was only applied in the U.S legal system, that's its history so please do not tell me its 'irrelevant'. I'm not arguing whether Obama is black or white is it obvious that he is considered Black and considers himself black (unlike Tiger Woods who acknowledges his South East Asian ancestry and doesn't consider himself simply 'black'). I am also not arguing about how he is viewed in the U.S, what I am saying is that if this is the way that race is classified then the one drop rule obviously still does apply.

Here is the definition and the history behind the rule:

The one-drop rule is the perception that any amount of non-white ancestral heritage makes a person non-white. But there is more than one interpretation of the concept. For some, the distinction is based on physical traits. If you appear to have black features, then you are black, whether it is more or less than 50% of your ancestry.

"To be considered black in the United States not even half of one's ancestry must be African black. But will one-fourth do, or one-eighth, or less? The nation's answer to the question 'Who is black?" has long been that a black is any person with any known African black ancestry. This definition reflects the long experience with slavery and later with Jim Crow segregation. In the South it became known as the "one-drop rule,'' meaning that a single drop of "black blood" makes a person a black. It is also known as the "one black ancestor rule," some courts have called it the "traceable amount rule," and anthropologists call it the "hypo-descent rule," meaning that racially mixed persons are assigned the status of the subordinate group. This definition emerged from the American South to become the nation's definition, generally accepted by whites and blacks. Blacks had no other choice. As we shall see, this American cultural definition of blacks is taken for granted as readily by judges, affirmative action officers, and black protesters as it is by Ku Klux Klansmen."

"The one-drop rule has long been taken for granted throughout the United States by whites and blacks alike, and the federal courts have taken "judicial notice" of it as being a matter of common knowledge. State courts have generally upheld the one-drop rule, but some have limited the definition to one thirty-second or one-sixteenth or one-eighth black ancestry, or made other limited exceptions for persons with both Indian and black ancestry. Most Americans seem unaware that this definition of blacks is extremely unusual in other countries, perhaps even unique to the United States, and that Americans define no other minority group in a similar way. . . ."

"It should now be apparent that the definition of a black person as one with any trace at all of black African ancestry is inextricably woven into the history of the United States. It incorporates beliefs once used to justify slavery and later used to buttress the castelike Jim Crow system of segregation. Developed in the South, the definition of "Negro" (now black) spread and became the nation's social and legal definition. Because blacks are defined according to the one-drop rule, they are a socially constructed category in which there is wide variation in racial traits and therefore not a race group in the scientific sense. However, because that category has a definite status position in the society it has become a self-conscious social group with an ethnic identity.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html

What I was asking is if this rule still applies and from what your answer it seems to still apply as far as racial classification.
In most places around the world bi-racial doesn't come down to one race but it does in the States.

Lucysnow

08-17-09, 03:57 PM

There is no such societal classification as "biracial" in the US. If there were a whole lot of white people and most of the black people would be in it - not just a few like Obama.

There is a story of three sons from an inter-racial couple. One looked white so he classified himself as white and was treated as white at school and had mostly white friends in his social group. One looked black and referred to himself as black and was treated as black in school and elsewhere and had mostly black friends. One looked hispanic so he called himself hispanic. Meanwhile they are all full brothers as DNA would have it.

True story.

There is a documentary about it that came out in the mid 90's so its not that long ago (the name escapes me I'll have to go look for it)

The one drop rule is a strange way of classifying race.

iceaura

08-17-09, 04:11 PM

what I am saying is that if this is the way that race is classified then the one drop rule obviously still does apply. You are confusing legal determinations of the past with sociological racial classifications, then and now.

No one in the US right now, and very few people ever, have been classified by race according to the one drop rule. That's not how the classification is done, in fact. If a white person in the US discovers that their "real" grandparent was black, they remain white.

MZ3Boy84

08-17-09, 04:35 PM

Lucysnow

08-17-09, 04:37 PM

You are confusing legal determinations of the past with sociological racial classifications, then and now.

No one in the US right now, and very few people ever, have been classified by race according to the one drop rule. That's not how the classification is done, in fact. If a white person in the US discovers that their "real" grandparent was black, they remain white.

No I'm not. It was both a legal and sociological classification:

"The law also defined “Negro” as having “any negro blood whatever.” Dichotomous “racial” classification was also invented in colonial times, with blood-fraction laws defining a “Negro” as having more than a given fraction of African ancestry. North America’s first blood-fraction law, in 1705, used a one-eighth rule (a person was black if one great-grandparent was entirely of African ancestry). By 1910, twenty states classified citizens by blood-fraction, most using one-fourth or one-eighth. However, appearance also played a role in racial definition in pre-1911 Arkansas, as exemplified by the case of the 1861 freedom case of Daniel v. Guy, in which slave Abby Guy was awarded her freedom largely because of her appearance and behavior. Before 1911, Arkansas’s railroad segregation law defined “Negro” as “one in whom there is a visible and distinct admixture of African blood.” However, the emergence of scientific racism gave rise to the notion that a person could look and self-identify as white but still somehow be black."

http://www.encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=5365

"The one-drop rule was a tactic in the U.S. South that codified and strengthened segregation and the disfranchisement of most blacks and many poor whites from 1890-1910. The 1910–19 decade was the nadir of the Jim Crow era. Tennessee adopted a one-drop statute in 1910, and Louisiana soon followed. Then Texas and Arkansas in 1911, Mississippi in 1917, North Carolina in 1923, Virginia in 1924, Alabama and Georgia in 1927, and Oklahoma in 1931. During this same period, Florida, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, and Utah retained their old "blood fraction" statutes de jure, but amended these fractions (one-sixteenth, one-thirtysecond) to be equivalent to one-drop de facto."

"Mainly because of the one-drop rule, there are many pale-skinned people who are considered black. In many of these instances, the person can actually have more white ancestry than black. There are examples of how this could happen through the generations. During slavery, there could have been a mulatto person, who because of the one-drop rule, was considered black. If they then had a child with a white person, the child would have been one-quarter black, but still considered black."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule

The 'rule' was intended to keep 'black' people no matter their parentage from entering white society by way of classifying themselves as white if they were bi-racial and actually looked white. That was the rule and it still has sociological standing as far as classification today. Its ridiculous to say that the way we racially classify someone based on what they look like isn't a by-product of the one drop rule and its insincere to pretend it doesn't apply if you only need one parent to be considered black or asian or whatever. If it doesn't apply then what happens to the other half of the racial lineage? The assumption here is that one drop of anything changes the racial purity of whites is it not? And if its simply based on what one looks like then there is only room for confusion like the brothers of the same parents who classify themselves as three different things because how they are perceived by a society that makes these judgements simply by how someone looks.

So you see you are wrong about the one drop rule and how it was used and how it continue to affect your perceptions of race even today in the U.S

Lucysnow

08-17-09, 05:14 PM

The problem, or rather confusion, occurs when the races merge and thus results in no clear definition of race.

For example, a white female mates with a black male. That offspring is then mixed. Eventually, they will be able to choose for themselves which of the two races that they would like to be identified by. White or black, even if genetically they have less chromosomial/physical features than the race they choose.

So even though that offspring's racial identification is only relevent to him, it still alters and effects the definition of race both past, present and future.

Now, going back to my original post about why it is socially acceptable for non-whites to be proud of their race; we now see that racial pride can be false pride and thus hypocritical, atleast in relation to this current provided scenario. If a half white-half black chooses to be "proud to be white", then it is ironic because they are both yet neither at the same time, depending on which definition of race you would like to go by. Make sense?

Whereas if a purely white or black person, never mixed with another "race" takes pride in his racial "purity" it, atleast to me, seems more logical than "interracial pride" since the very definition and characteristcs of being interracial can have so many facets and is not contingent or consistant with other mixed individuals.

Miscegenation has become more prevalent with globalization and migration so I think there should be a mixed race or bi-racial bracket for those who wish to use it. Either that or the whole race paradigm has to change and shift emphasis towards culture. Race and culture do not necessarily go together. I know a doctor in Asia who was born and raised in China. His father was African and mother Chinese ethnic Han. He is chinese through and through and has rarely ventured outside of Asia. The Chinese associates around him both Malaysian, Indonesian and those from China for some reason see him as Chinese even though they know his father is African. They see him thus because for them culture is still more important than race. This wouldn't be true in Japan or Korea however where the reverse is true. In Cambodia they consider any child raised as Khmer to be Khmer even if the child is mixed, there is no half this and half that.

I do agree with you that in the U.S its too confusing for a half anything as they are outside of a racial loop or are designated to one side. I remember when Halle Berry won the academy awards and her mother made a comment that he daughter was 'A credit to her race'. Halle Berry's mother is a blond white woman so I thought how ironic it was that she considered her blood child to be 'of another race'. I'm not sure how Halle Berry classifies herself but I would imagine that she considers herself black. She now has a child with a white man and it will be interesting to see how this child is classified. In her situation the genetic history of black in her bloodline is becoming thin so I don't know what they will do with her.

Picture of Halle Berry's child:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.tmz.com/media/2008/08/0830_halle_berry_launch_pcn.jpg

So what do you think? Is the child black or white considering that her mixed mother is classified as black? Is the child half white and half black? How is this decided? And if the child is considered black then what happens if she too marries a white man? Does that child also become a black child though we can bet by that time the child would look purely white and have little black to claim being black.

Betrayer0fHope

08-17-09, 05:28 PM

What the hell is with everyone bitching at SAM?

This thread is terrible and only shows how racist people are.

Lucysnow

08-17-09, 05:39 PM

What the hell is with everyone bitching at SAM?

This thread is terrible and only shows how racist people are.

Where is it racist?

jessiej920

08-17-09, 09:40 PM

I think the use of the word 'nigger' or 'nigga' by black people is just a way of reclaiming a word that was once negative, cruel, and hurtful and trying to turn it into something that no longer has negative connotations. 2Pac said 'Nigga' stood for Never Ignorant Getting Goals Accomplished. A real 'nigga' was someone who represented his people and the ghetto way of life while always staying true no matter what (Dyson). If black people want to use the word then let them. Why should I have any say in it? I'm not black and I certainly don't feel the need to use the word.

I think the same could be said for the word 'bitch'. So many girls and women call each other 'bitch', 'beotch', or even 'hooker', but it's said in a way that's meant to be a word used between friends. It's taking something that was once used to oppress and turning it into something that no longer gets under the skin and hurts. It becomes a joke or even way to show solidarity, but most women would be pissed if a man called them a bitch.

I'm not saying it isn't hypocritical or even right, but everyone deals with sexism, racism, and oppression differently.

GeoffP

08-17-09, 09:44 PM

Well put.

Me, I'm proud to be whatever it is that I am.

jessiej920

08-17-09, 09:49 PM

Well put.

Me, I'm proud to be whatever it is that I am.

Thank you and I am also proud to be whatever the hell it is I want to be. I'm not to worried about the words other people use to try and define me, put me in a little box, and/or lable me so they feel more comfortable.

GeoffP

08-17-09, 09:52 PM

No problem.

I hate it when people see me as only East Korean. I mean, I'm qualified to be a dictator anywhere.

jessiej920

08-17-09, 09:53 PM

No problem.

I hate it when people see me as only East Korean. I mean, I'm qualified to be a dictator anywhere.

Well duh! You're the great and mighty Myuu. Myuu is Dictator For Life ;)

GeoffP

08-17-09, 09:57 PM

Well that's not what they thought this spring. :( Thank Myuu for CIA-induced counter-revolutionaries. The Caribbean exile thing is tolerable for just so long, you understand.

Lucysnow

08-17-09, 09:59 PM

jessiej920

08-17-09, 10:12 PM

Which post are you referring to? I don't see what this has to do with racial or cultural pride in the OP or the classification thereof.

I was making a comment on some of the discussion about the supposed hypocrisy of black people using the words 'Nigga' and 'Nigger' as a point of pride while it's seen as racist if a white person were to use it. Below is a quote from this discussion to satisfy any confusion.

I'm not just talking in vague generalizations here, Doreen. There are specific examples and easily demonstratable patterns of blacks expecting white people to behave in a wholly different set of rules than they. Let me give you an example. Blacks often freak out when white people use the word "nigger" in almost every usage of the term -- and rightfully so. It is a degrading label. However, those same blacks will often then use that degrading label "nigger" to refer to themselves or others who are black.

Now, if blacks are going to openly and casually use the word "nigger" (and they do -- all the time), then white people can use it, too. For blacks to tell whites that it's "okay for us to say nigger, but it's not okay for YOU to say it" is in itself an openly racist attitude.

By telling me that I am not allowed to say certain words because of my race, you are basically saying that the color of a person's skin should determine how they are allowed to behave in our society. Now tell me... how exactly is that any different than whites telling blacks that because of the color of their skin, they aren't allowed to ride in the front end of the bus..? Fundamentally speaking, there is no real difference here. Making ethnically based decisions about what people are allowed to say, or how they can behave, or anything else for that matter is RACISM, pure and simple.

iceaura

08-17-09, 11:57 PM

No I'm not. It was both a legal and sociological classification: As the examples you chose, all legal disputes, make clear, the legal "one drop" rule has little or no bearing on how a person is socially classified in the US.

When racial screening was in force in US colleges and corporations, it was not done by geneology - for blacks.
So you see you are wrong about the one drop rule and how it was used and how it continue to affect your perceptions of race even today in the U.S The one drop rule affects nobody's "perception" of race, in the US. No one asks about your grandparents, before assigning you to your race. It's an immediate consequence of your appearance and self-presentation.

I do agree with you that in the U.S its too confusing for a half anything as they are outside of a racial loop or are designated to one side. I remember when Halle Berry won the academy awards and her mother made a comment that he daughter was 'A credit to her race'. Halle Berry's mother is a blond white woman so I thought how ironic it was that she considered her blood child to be 'of another race'. It wasn't "ironic", it was accurate. Halle Berry is black, in the US. Her parentage is irrelevant, as her mother knows from personal experience. Is the child black or white considering that her mixed mother is classified as black? Is the child half white and half black? How is this decided? You keep asking how this is decided, and the answer is always the same - it is decided based on appearance and self-presentation. If the kid grows up looking as white as she appears in that photo, she will have to tan heavy and adopt some obvious stereotypical behaviors to have a good chance of being "black" in US society. If she darkens and grows more "black" in appearance, she will be unable to pass for white regardless of her parentage.
Eventually, they will be able to choose for themselves which of the two races that they would like to be identified by. White or black, even if genetically they have less chromosomial/physical features than the race they choose. Are you claiming that a mixed race person in the US can choose their racial classification regardless of their appearance? So that Obama, say, or Shaquille O'Neal, or Muhammed Ali, or Halle Berry, or OJ Simpson, any of the majority of US blacks looking for a house loan or a job, could become "white" in the US just by clicking their heels together three times and declaring themselves white?

Lucysnow

08-18-09, 12:19 AM

Iceaura if you say that someone is black or white by the way they look then that is a sociological aspect of 'one drop'. Why? Because you say Obama being bi-racial is irrelevant in the States because in the States he is black. Why is he considered black in the States? Because the one drop rule has instilled the idea that even if you have one white parent it doesn't count because all it takes is one drop.

Iceaura: It wasn't "ironic", it was accurate. Halle Berry is black, in the US. Her parentage is irrelevant, as her mother knows from personal experience.

I thought it ironic because its her blood child and how could you think of your blood child as being of a different race. The fact that she is black in the States doesn't change the irony for me. I find it fantastic because that child is also of her race, it would have to be but that's just my opinion. Its only in the States that I know people who consider Halle Berry to be simply black and not mixed.

Iceaura: You keep asking how this is decided, and the answer is always the same - it is decided based on appearance and self-presentation. If the kid grows up looking as white as she appears in that photo, she will have to tan heavy and adopt some obvious stereotypical behaviors to have a good chance of being "black" in US society. If she darkens and grows more "black" in appearance, she will be unable to pass for white regardless of her parentage.

LOL. This blows me away. So then the three brothers who came from the same family are right to consider themselves as two different races, not to mention the one who says he's hispanic even though that's not a race but an ethnicity, are correct to judge themselves in this way because of what they look like? I just find that weird. They're brothers with the same mother and father its not possible for them to come from different 'races' wholly. By wholly I mean one being definitely black and one being definitely white. No wonder mixed race kids who grow up in the States are so confused. I appreciate what you are trying to say but it comes across as bloody funny:D

By the way what are the stereotypical behaviours she might adopt? I am curious for example what it would mean if she looks black (very dark mind you) but being raised in a white privileged community mirrors the behaviour of that community then what would she be? I'm asking because as I said race and culture do not go together but you mention that her appearance is the first factor and stereotypical behaviour the second if I have it right. I do notice that a white person in the States who does behave as if they were raised in an inner city black environment is not considered black but white. So I wonder what bearing behaviour would have in determining Berry's daughter's race if she does turn out very dark or very light (what have you), considering a white person is always white no matter the behaviour?

iceaura

08-18-09, 01:27 AM

Why is he considered black in the States? Because the one drop rule has instilled the idea that even if you have one white parent it doesn't count because all it takes is one drop. Obama is considered black in the US because he has melanistic skin and suitable facial features.

Period.

If he looked like his mom only, he'd be white.
I thought it ironic because its her blood child and how could you think of your blood child as being of a different race. How? Because you had been told repeatedly, reminded daily, and forced to plan your entire life around the fact.
So then the three brothers who came from the same family are right to consider themselves as two different races, not to mention the one who says he's hispanic even though that's not a race but an ethnicity, are correct to judge themselves in this way because of what they look like? What do you mean by "judge themselves"? The "hispanic" one is running a (probably humorous) con - hispanic is not a race, and he's claiming a cultural identity without basis - but the other two are just labeling themselves accurately, in the US.
By the way what are the stereotypical behaviours she might adopt? I am curious for example what it would mean if she looks black (very dark mind you) but being raised in a white privileged community mirrors the behaviour of that community then what would she be? She would be black. The stereotypical behaviors (talking with "black" grammar, "loose" body language, styles of dress and hair, if she wants to pass as black; the opposite if she wants to pass as white) will only work if her appearance is borderline.

I've mentioned before that I had a girlfriend who changed races seasonally - during the transitions in the spring and fall she could break either way, for a month or two.

Lucysnow

08-18-09, 01:59 AM

Iceaura: How? Because you had been told repeatedly, reminded daily, and forced to plan your entire life around the fact.

I'm not disputing that this is an affect of social understanding in this country. I could never think of any child of mine as not belonging to my race its that simple. The fact that Halle Berry's mother doesn't think this doesn't surprise me but I still find it strange, strange that she can think of her child as being 'different' though it is of her blood and body.

Iceaura: What do you mean by "judge themselves"? The "hispanic" one is running a (probably humorous) con - hispanic is not a race, and he's claiming a cultural identity without basis - but the other two are just labeling themselves accurately, in the US.

Well no it seems that the hispanic one uses this label because everyone he meets thinks of him as being hispanic. As for the other's they are doing the same thing. You saying they are labeling themselves accurately in the States will not make it seem any less strange in my eyes. I wouldn't want any children of mine to be that confused (and confusing it must be).

Iceaura: She would be black. The stereotypical behaviors (talking with "black" grammar, "loose" body language, styles of dress and hair, if she wants to pass as black; the opposite if she wants to pass as white) will only work if her appearance is borderline.

Talking with black grammar? :bugeye: Blacks have their own grammar? What are the rules for black grammar? :D

Loose body language? Does the arms swing like a monkeys?

OK so this is what passes for being black, swinging body language and using their own grammar if your skin is dark. This doesn't count if the skin is white right? If she wants to pass as white she must do the opposite which I guess would be not to swing her body nor to use black grammar but white grammar. But then that would only work provided she is borderline in coloring which she seems to be. Do I have it right? Sam had an argument akin to this concerning african americans. She said that the only successful ones were the ones who 'acted white' whatever that means. Shouldn't you really be referring to cultural traits and not use 'black'? I mean blacks and whites who were raised in Europe, Africa or elsewhere wouldn't have any of the cultural traits you consider stereotypical which would mean that you cannot ascribe them to color.

I thought the only proper usage of the English language was The Kings English or Modern English Usage, you know something akin to standard English. Oh well.

So what are the rules for hair and dress in terms of race?

What happens to Asians if they use black grammar and swing their body are they considered black too? For example what if they are a dark asian as many South East Asians are AND they use black grammar and swing their body?

Iceaura: I've mentioned before that I had a girlfriend who changed races seasonally - during the transitions in the spring and fall she could break either way, for a month or two.

Yeah but isn't that because she lives in a confusing society that seems to have a strange form of classification? I mean why do you think she was transitioning like this? Did you ever ask?

(I truly truly truly feel sorry for Americans.)

Challenger78

08-18-09, 04:02 AM

Lucysnow

08-18-09, 11:20 AM

Jane Eliott once said,
“When we have multicultural diversity training, one of the first things they have is a dinner where they serve foods from all different lands. Except white. We don’t study white culture ‘cause that’s the right culture’. We already know white culture. We don’t call it white culture, we call it reality."

Perhaps that's why it's bad. The domineering culture that surrounds us, reminds us of what we have lost in our own cultures. And those who take pride in it could, possibly be glad of destroying other cultures.
Fascinating.
Unfortunately, the only type of white pride, (much to lucysnow's distress I assume), in Australia, is the kind that drapes the flag around a pig's head.

Its bad because its 'known'? Jane Elliot is speaking of diversity training I am sure if you asked her if white people should live in shame and self-disgust because they were white she would begin having her blue eyed brown eyed classes all over again to AGAIN reiterate her initial point of view. She held diversity classes to sensitize white's who were living in places around the U.S were there was no diversity. Notice how these classes never took place in NYC for example. What you are doing is saying that white people and european culture is INHERENTLY racist which is bullshit, insulting and to be frank a sign of ignorance. Its interesting you should bring up Eliot since it seems you may not have understood the wisdom of her experiment or you would have noticed that when she works with adults, she has minorities in the dominant group and they react with just as much prejudice and feelings of entitlement and do not behave differently because they were once targets of racism. You should watch A Class Divided and maybe then you would understand her wisdom and the beauty behind the experiment.

And I am sure Elliot would have agreed with me.

Would you agree that muslims are inherently extreme, intolerant towards non-muslims especially Jews? Would you say they were innately violent due to their religious values? Inherently misogynistic? Should we carry it further and mock them and say their culture has no value and they should be ashamed of themselves because of what they represent as terrorists against democracy and free non-muslim people everywhere? Think about it.

davesalasa

08-18-09, 11:37 PM

You know, I am pretty sure I got this right. Most hispanics, blacks, and asians are LACTOSE INTOLERANT. They lack the enzymes needed to digest milk, but still drink it and need it's benefits. Therefore they must run to European genetic structures in order to be "accepted" and included in the digestive function of Europeans. That's the simple truth. Europeans can digest dairy and a great many black people can not. That's one of the hallmark reasons for the complete lie and untruth of racism. The fact of the matter is, Europeans just don't want to deal with coming to the aid of a digestive equation cause they don't understand NOT being able to digest it. Plain and simple, hope you all learn from me! Whew, really nailin em tonight!

jessiej920

08-18-09, 11:44 PM

Lucysnow

08-18-09, 11:48 PM

Um...are you serious? :bugeye:

WTF does that have to do with anything?

Its the Return of The 'nerb

jessiej920

08-18-09, 11:52 PM

Its the Return of The 'nerb

I assume that's a bad thing :p

Lucysnow

08-19-09, 12:26 AM

I assume that's a bad thing :p

Its a 'banned' thing:D

nirakar

08-22-09, 11:06 PM

Why is it that blacks can be pro-black without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that Hispanics can be pro-Hispanic without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that almost every single racial and cultural group in America can be pro-their culture or race with out being anti-anybody...

Every group that is, except for whites.

Why is it that being pro-white automatically equates to being anti-everybody else in the eyes of society?

Discuss!

I hear bitching on conservative talk radio about whites not being treated fairly or not being allowed to be proud of being white but nobody ever gives examples.

Nobody even notices when people talk proudly about the founding fathers of the USA or Talk proudly about Shakespeare or Beethoven, or Einstein or Elvis Presley and this is not considered White Pride. The Mayflower society that celebrates descendancy from the Mayflower pilgrims is never talked about as White Pride. The big fuss over sending men to the moon is not talked about as White pride because we live in a White culture and so rather than being White pride all this is just our cultural pride and Blacks and Mexican are encouraged to to share in our cultural pride as Americans despite the overwhelming whiteness of this shared culture.

I never realized how much there was a little touch of black culture in American Whites like myself until I visited Germany and noticed the lack of that African touch. Germans may be absorbing Turkish and Kurdish traits into their culture now but in my opinion something subtle of the rhythm of being an American comes from the blacks even for pasty white geek Americans.

The reason American Whites are never noticed having White Pride is because American White pride is too hard to distinguish from American Pride.

Why is it that blacks can be pro-black without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that Hispanics can be pro-Hispanic without being anti-anybody?

Why is it that almost every single racial and cultural group in America can be pro-their culture or race with out being anti-anybody...

Every group that is, except for whites.

Why is it that being pro-white automatically equates to being anti-everybody else in the eyes of society?

Discuss!

Americans can be pro-American without being anti-anybody. But the only way to be noticed having White pride as opposed to American pride is to be against somebody who is not white.

Find me an example of somebody getting criticized for having White pride. It never happens. Whites only get criticized for being racists when they claim white superiority or non-white inferiority. Blacks also don't get a pass from American culture when they claim Whites are bad. The whole stink about Reverend Wright was because Reverend Wright claimed whites behaved badly. The media made a huge fuss about him being a racist.

This whole "poor pitiful whites" bit and the claim that there is a double standard in which minorities get to be proud or even racists but whites are not allowed to be proud or racists is a fraud. It is just political BS designed to take advantage of the left over divisions in the USA for political purposes. The Goal is for the Republicans to be "US" and for the liberals and foreigners and blacks and weirdo's to be "them". "Us versus Them" hostility is hardwired as a tendency in all social species of mammals and it can be used by anybody to turn a situation to their advantage.

jessiej920

08-22-09, 11:47 PM

Nobody even notices when people talk proudly about the founding fathers of the USA or Talk proudly about Shakespeare or Beethoven, or Einstein or Elvis Presley and this is not considered White Pride.

Because they're not being praised for being white, their being praised for their accomplishments. What about Malcolm X or Martin Luther King Jr. or Michael Jordan or Booker T. Washington? When people talk about them is that Black pride? Or, again, are they simply praising their accomplishments?

I think that is the point that the OP is trying to make; discussing Einstein isn't seen as White-pride, but discussing Martin Luther King Jr. is seen by many as Balck pride. Why is that? Both were intelligent individuals who changed the world, but why should race matter?

The reason American Whites are never noticed having White Pride is because American White pride is too hard to distinguish from American Pride.

That's a generalization. Your trying to say that all Whites are the same, with the same culture, and that is simply not true. There are plenty of 'White' people in America who don't consider themselves to be 'American'.

Americans can be pro-American without being anti-anybody. But the only way to be noticed having White pride as opposed to American pride is to be against somebody who is not white.

I think that was the point of the OP. He is questioning why that is the case.

Find me an example of somebody getting criticized for having White pride. It never happens.

That's because most White people who are not racist are too afraid to even utter the words 'White-Pride' for fear of being labeled a racist. There is this little thing called 'White-guilt' and it's unfortunate that because my skin color matches someone elses people assume then I must have had slave-owning ancestors who oppressed others, which is also very untrue.

The whole stink about Reverend Wright was because Reverend Wright claimed whites behaved badly. The media made a huge fuss about him being a racist.

What White people behaved badly? The White people who oppressed Black people and other people with different colored skin? Or is not racist to lump all 'Whites' into one category and place blame on them as if they are one ethnicity only?

This whole "poor pitiful whites" bit and the claim that there is a double standard in which minorities get to be proud or even racists but whites are not allowed to be proud or racists is a fraud.

Not only do I not believe that, but I'm sure you will find plenty of people, White or otherwise, who would also disagree with that.

nirakar

08-23-09, 02:15 AM

Because they're not being praised for being white, their being praised for their accomplishments. What about Malcolm X or Martin Luther King Jr. or Michael Jordan or Booker T. Washington? When people talk about them is that Black pride? Or, again, are they simply praising their accomplishments?

Praise of MLK, Malcolm and MJ could be either simply praising their accomplishments or Black Pride. When I praise them, being white it has nothing to do with Black Pride.

There would be no need for black history month or "Black Pride" if there was not concern about the damage done by blacks feeling inferior. Would James Brown have been able to sell "say it loud, i'm black and i'm proud" If there was not a need to assert this to counteract humiliation?

It will be great when Black Pride is just another ethnic pride like Italian Pride and Irish pride. Actually, the Italians and Irish also were humiliated by racism directed at them when they arrived so I can't say that healing a wounded ego plays no role in their ethnic pride.

I think that is the point that the OP is trying to make; discussing Einstein isn't seen as White-pride, but discussing Martin Luther King Jr. is seen by many as Balck pride. Why is that? Both were intelligent individuals who changed the world, but why should race matter?

MLK dealt with racial issues. That made him a "black" figure. Blacks needed Black pride to counteract Black shame.

Poor White Southerners may need White Pride to counteract the way wealthier educated Northern and West Coast Whites look down on them. Despite being from the areas that looks down on poor White NASCAR loving southerners I didn't mind hearing about how the South will rise again or Leonard Skynard's White Southern Pride and rebuke to the condescending Liberal White North in the Sweet Home Alabama line "I hope Neil Young will remember, A Southern man don't need him around anyhow!"

Anything that the White Americans who feel looked down on want to do to heal their pain is fine with me as long as they don't start scapegoating black or anybody else as a means of coping with the educated coastal whites looking down on them.

The reason American Whites are never noticed having White Pride is because American White pride is too hard to distinguish from American Pride. That's a generalization. Your trying to say that all Whites are the same, with the same culture, and that is simply not true. There are plenty of 'White' people in America who don't consider themselves to be 'American'.

Who would not consider themselves to be an American? A non-citizen? Somebody who did not grow up in American culture? South Carolina and Maine and Los Angeles have different cultures but they are all part of American culture.

There are cultural differences between Whites and Blacks and Mexican Americans and Vietnamese Americans but growing up in the USA makes us all share a lot culturally.

Americans can be pro-American without being anti-anybody. But the only way to be noticed having White pride as opposed to American pride is to be against somebody who is not white.
I think that was the point of the OP. He is questioning why that is the case.

How would you imagine a White person expressing White pride in a way that does not put anybody down and is not ethnic like Irish Pride or regional like Southern Pride or Religious like Born Again Christian pride? If you can't imagine how to celebrate White Pride then Minorities and Liberals should not be blamed for repressing White Pride.

The only thing that Minorities and Liberals and social deviants have tried to repress is attempts to humiliate and intimidate minorities and liberals social deviants by people claiming to be superior.

How could people express White pride. If a bunch of white people started singing "say it loud, I am White and I am proud" that might scare blacks and make them feel like they are at a Klan rally but nobody is forbidding whites from that sort of behavior. Whites just are not interested in that sort of behavior. It's boring for Whites because their is no White shame of inferiority that needs to be healed.

The White shame that does need healing is this taking on of the guilt of the slave owners, and Indian killers. What happened happened. There is no need to repress the knowledge of what happened. There is a legacy of denial and a resentment that the nasty issues keeps being brought up. If a husband gets drunk once, beats his wife gets taken to jail, gets out, come home but never apologizes; then the wife brings up the beating over and over and so does the daughter, and the son who never did anything starts to feel unfairly blamed for the beating; should the son get angry at his sister the daughter for bringing up the beating that the father never apologized for? I see the people claiming that they are not allowed to have White pride as being like the son getting made at the sister for bring up the beating of the mother that the father never apologized for. The family needs therapy or in the USA's case needs 100 more years of time passage.

That's because most White people who are not racist are too afraid to even utter the words 'White-Pride' for fear of being labeled a racist. There is this little thing called 'White-guilt' and it's unfortunate that because my skin color matches someone elses people assume then I must have had slave-owning ancestors who oppressed others, which is also very untrue.

Who would you say "white pride" to in what context? I don't think all White people are afraid to say White Pride. I am not. The problem is that once the fear of saying "White Pride" is gone it becomes pointless and boring to say "White Pride".

For some Bizarre reason that I don't understand I got all obsessed a few years back with my ancestors and did a big genealogy and their is some sort of pride (or instincts for ancestor worship) involved with that. I found out two of my ancestors did own slaves in the North and a bunch of my ancestors participated in genocide and enslavement of native Americans in king Phillips War. I am at peace with the history.

My father was a racist. The first person to ever hit me who's name I did not know was black. The only person to ever stick a knife to my throat was black. I could have chosen to not like blacks but I didn't. I know I am not 100% clean of racism towards blacks and I have a whole grab bag of negative judgements about different kinds of people but I can see most of my crap and I am not afraid of it.

Maybe you are afraid that you are a racist when basically your not. It would be difficult to grow up in the USA and have no trace of emotional issues around race but the whole racial situation is getting better and healing faster than I ever thought it would.

Challenger78

08-23-09, 03:15 AM

Would you agree that muslims are inherently extreme, intolerant towards non-muslims especially Jews? Would you say they were innately violent due to their religious values? Inherently misogynistic? Should we carry it further and mock them and say their culture has no value and they should be ashamed of themselves because of what they represent as terrorists against democracy and free non-muslim people everywhere? Think about it.
Your misreading my point. You think that I'm stereotyping white people in the image of their ancestors. No. I am arguing that white culture is reality, and is a reminder to migrants of what they have lost. Hence, it can gain negative connotations.

White culture includes pride in their history, and some aspects of that history ARE racist, and imperialist. Taking pride in those aspects, as seen by the rallies that have cropped up so far, is racist. To deny it and glaze over it, is to demean those cultures that were crushed by white culture.

I'm arguing that from the migrants point of view, This is how I perceive them to feel. Like it or not, White culture is reality. Not "Known". Reality. The migrants have to adapt to White culture. It's a good thing that they can be reminded of their own cultures for once in a while

jessiej920

08-23-09, 04:40 AM

Praise of MLK, Malcolm and MJ could be either simply praising their accomplishments or Black Pride. When I praise them, being white it has nothing to do with Black Pride.

There would be no need for black history month or "Black Pride" if there was not concern about the damage done by blacks feeling inferior. Would James Brown have been able to sell "say it loud, i'm black and i'm proud" If there was not a need to assert this to counteract humiliation?

It will be great when Black Pride is just another ethnic pride like Italian Pride and Irish pride. Actually, the Italians and Irish also were humiliated by racism directed at them when they arrived so I can't say that healing a wounded ego plays no role in their ethnic pride.

I think that you are assuming we come from two very different standpoints when actually we are just not making ourselves clear. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Of course there is a need for Black people to counteract humiliation with Black Pride and I have no problem with that whatsoever. And you're right, the Irish were humiliated and treated like dogs when they came to this country, I know this because my great grandmother was one of them. But I do think you are making a large assumption when you say no wounds need to be healed when it comes to ethnic pride. Ethnicity is the source of everything. Race is what we lump people into so that we can define and judge them easier :rolleyes:

MLK dealt with racial issues. That made him a "black" figure. Blacks needed Black pride to counteract Black shame.

Understandable, but that doesn't mean he should only be defined for his pride in his "blackness". Other races respect and honor him as well, but that doesn't mean they are thinking "Black Pride" when they do so.

Poor White Southerners may need White Pride to counteract the way wealthier educated Northern and West Coast Whites look down on them. Despite being from the areas that looks down on poor White NASCAR loving southerners I didn't mind hearing about how the South will rise again or Leonard Skynard's White Southern Pride and rebuke to the condescending Liberal White North in the Sweet Home Alabama line "I hope Neil Young will remember, A Southern man don't need him around anyhow!"

It seems that you have quite a bias. What's with all the references to "the geeky white Americans" and the "poor white southerners"? The problem with White Pride is that it simply screams 'racism!' because of the KKK, but there is nothing wrong with being proud of your skin color, white or black.

Anything that the White Americans who feel looked down on want to do to heal their pain is fine with me as long as they don't start scapegoating black or anybody else as a means of coping with the educated coastal whites looking down on them.

I don't think it's about scapegoating for anyone. Yes, people with white skin ensalved African Americans and killed the Native Americans, but that doesn't mean that all people with white skin had any part in that awful time. White American people, from all different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, have carried the guilt of slavery on their backs for as long as I can remember, even when their ancestors were never in the country at the time, never took part in such terrible acts, and even when they are guiltless simply because they never did such things or were even alive during the time it happened. Racial issues will always be there and scapegoating goes both ways. It's not sensical for a Black American who is 20 years old as of today to blame a White American who is 20 years old as of today for slavery or racism. The past hurts, but it can be healed if we move forward together, rather then pointing fingers and blaming each other.

Who would not consider themselves to be an American? A non-citizen? Somebody who did not grow up in American culture? South Carolina and Maine and Los Angeles have different cultures but they are all part of American culture.

There are cultural differences between Whites and Blacks and Mexican Americans and Vietnamese Americans but growing up in the USA makes us all share a lot culturally.

Many people, White people included, want to take pride in their ethnicity and their culture. Even while living in America, many people do not consider themselves 'American', instead they prefer to claim the heritage of where they originally came from. That doesn't make them less American in the eyes of society, but to say that everyone is proud to be an American is a generalization. It also doesn't mean that every White person thinks that to be American you have to be White.

How would you imagine a White person expressing White pride in a way that does not put anybody down and is not ethnic like Irish Pride or regional like Southern Pride or Religious like Born Again Christian pride? If you can't imagine how to celebrate White Pride then Minorities and Liberals should not be for repressing White Pride.

You are trying to distinguish ethnic pride from racial pride when for certain people there is no difference. For many White Americans, their ethnic pride has no value to them because they've been told their whole lives that 'to be an American if the best they can be' and that is all they are. Not to mention that racism is their fault. And slavery. And that to be White is something to be ashamed of because white ppl have such a negative history. For White people it is much harder to distinguish ethnic pride from racial pride without coming off as a racist. If I were to walk down the street with a shirt that read 'White Pride' ppl would assume I was a racist. It's the assumption that all White Americans are to blame for racism that is wrong. Why should I not be proud to be who I am? Why does White Pride = Racism? At the University they gave me a convenient term: Reverse-Racism. Not Racism. Reverse-Racism. As if racism began with White people. That is just a bunch of bullshit.

The only thing that Minorities and Liberals and social deviants have tried to repress is attempts to humiliate and intimidate minorities and liberals social deviants by people claiming to be superior.

And they should. No one should suffer oppression. NO ONE.

How could people express White pride. If a bunch of white people started singing "say it loud, I am White and I am proud" that might scare blacks and make them feel like they are at a Klan rally but nobody is forbidding whites from that sort of behavior. Whites just are not interested in that sort of behavior. It's boring for Whites because their is no White shame of inferiority that needs to be healed.

Another generalization. Many White people are proud to be White, but feel afraid to express it for fear that they will be labeled racists. You should have seen some of my classes in college. Half the time, White people wouldn't even speak for fear that if they said the smallest thing in defense of the White race the rest of the class would attack them. Racism is prevalent, it is real, and it happens to EVERYONE. And to say that there is no White pain to be healed is very presumptive. As I've mentioned before, White Americans have carried the burden of slavery on their backs whether they were ever involved or knew anyone involved or not.

Who would you say white pride to in what context? I don't think all White people are afraid to say White Pride. I am not. The problem is that once the fear of saying "White Pride" is gone it becomes pointless and boring to say "White Pride".

I'm not sure who I would say it to. I've been told my whole life not to declare it, so I guess I've never thought about when it would be appropriate to shout "White Pride!", like other races shout "Black pride" or "Latino Pride" ect.

I am at peace with the history.

The first person to ever hit me who's name I did not know was black. My father was a racist. The only person to ever stick a knife to my throat was black. I know I am not 100% clean of racism towards blacks and I have a whole grab bag of negative judgements about different kinds of people but I can see most of my crap and I am not afraid of it.

Maybe you are afraid that you are a racist when basically your not. It would be difficult to grow up in the USA and have no trace of emotional issues around race but the whole racial situation is getting better and healing faster than I ever thought it would.

*Sigh*. No. I am not afraid I am a racist. I wasn't going to bother responding to the first part of your post because I knew we had gotten down to the meat of the convo by the time I read your last paragraph.

Once again, you are generalizing. Why, as a White American, would I have "no trace of emotional issues around race"? That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. As a White American I am constantly reminded of racial issues, not to mention suffer through them on a daily basis, as well as blamed for them. It's super awesome :rolleyes:. So a Black person held a knife to your throat? So what? Why would that turn you into a racist? A White person could do the same thing, would you then hate white ppl?

When I was in high school I changed oil for 4 years. I worked with all different types of people; convicts, felons, hookers, pimps, college students, drop-outs, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics...it goes on....but I will tell you this, I have never been racist EVER to anyone, but when I changed oil (working mostly with men) I have never experienced so much racism in my life for being White. The Black men hated me and if they didn't hate me for being White they hated me because I was a woman changing oil and telling them what to do. To them I was the devil. For me, I was just doing my job, 15 years old, running an oil shop and trying to keep my head down to avoid the racism and sexism lest I lose my temper and beat the shit out of someone.

When I dated a man who was half-black, I experienced racism and bigotry like never before. It was astonishing to me how close-minded ppl still were about bi-racial relationships and this was fucking 2002! Not to mention the shit I got from some of my white friends. And my boyfriends black friends hated me. It was awful.

So, once again, I am not a racist, nor am I afraid that I am. I'm proud to be white. I'm proud to be fucking Irish with the same eyes as my mother, my aunt, my cousin, and my grandmother and my pale-ass white skin. I'm proud to be Norwegian with my barbaric heritage ;)

I will end this ridiculously long post with a story:

The first time I was made aware that there was something wrong with being White was when I was 4 years old. I was a shy child at a young age. One day, I ended up in an elevator. It was my mother and me (both White as can be), along with a Black mother and her child about my age. The little Black girl, being friendly and not shy at all, approached me and said "hello, what's your name?" Being shy, I smiled, but cowered behind my mother's legs. Then it happened. The Black girls mother pulled her aside, glaring at me, and in an angry voice told her daughter of 4 years old, "Don't speak to her. She's White. When they don't speak to you that means they think they're better then you". I remember feeling instant shock and humilation. It was at that moment that I learned what it meant to be White and what it meant to be Black. I will never forget that moment. It's as clear as if it were yesterday. I remember the pain. Not knowing what to do or say. I knew that I must have done something bad. The little Black girl looked confused and I was left feeling shocked into silence. What could I say to make up for what I had done unintentionally? How could I change by skin color and why was I bad? My tongue was glued to the roof of my mouth. My mother, shocked and appalled and embarrassed for being White, apologized profusely, trying to explain that I was just shy and meant no offense. I remember the Black woman leaving the elevator with her little girl in tow, treating us as if we were the plauge, and not even acknowledging my mother's apologies for something so innocent as a child's shyness.

If you think racism doesn't exist for Whites then you are living in different world then me. Racism hurts everyone, but yet it is perpetrated by peoples of all colors. Racism cannot be pinned on one race alone. Like you said, scapegoating solves nothing.

nirakar

08-23-09, 04:06 PM

Don't try to respond to everything Jessie. I am writing too much.

I think that you are assuming we come from two very different standpoints when actually we are just not making ourselves clear. I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
I did not know where you were coming from. I did not read most of this thread. We are not that far apart; we mostly seem to agree.

Where we don't agree is that I have always been suspicious that people saying some form of that that whites in the USA are being repressed or discriminated against don't know what they are talking about and or are in some way dupes of conservatives or racists or themselves racist or conservative partisans. I think everything that Limbaugh and his followers utter is usually poorly thought out, intellectually dishonest and mean spirited and all statements starting with "it is unfair that Whites are not allowed to ___________________(fill in the blank) sound on the surface like mindless, self-deceptive mean Limbaughisms to me.

I was curious whether MZ or anybody could defend any form of those sort of statements.

You have made as good a case for whites being legitimately repressed in what they are free to express has I have heard. I still believe that most complaints about whites being repressed in what they are free to express are BS because I never felt repressed.

Maybe I did not feel repressed because I never wanted to reject the ugly parts of US history or because I never felt like I was being asked to take on personal blame for the ugly parts of US history. Blacks to horrible things to blacks and whites do horrible things to whites and Asians to horrible things to Asians so racial guilt did not make much sense to me. But my early years were spent in a very white suburb that was participating in blaming other whites for racism and was indoctrinating me in school with pride and identification with Northern white abolitionists through a narrative that made Southern whites the bad guys and pretended that racism was not also a northern problem.

If you think racism doesn't exist for Whites then you are living in different world then me. Racism hurts everyone, but yet it is perpetrated by peoples of all colors. Racism cannot be pinned on one race alone.

I think my upstairs neighbor hates me because I am white. I wish racism was over because I see it hurting everybody. Unfortunately I think racism is part of human nature. You can study any nation at any point in history and you will probably find racism there.

Of course there is a need for Black people to counteract humiliation with Black Pride and I have no problem with that whatsoever. And you're right, the Irish were humiliated and treated like dogs when they came to this country, I know this because my great grandmother was one of them. But I do think you are making a large assumption when you say no wounds need to be healed when it comes to ethnic pride. Ethnicity is the source of everything. Race is what we lump people into so that we can define and judge them easier :rolleyes:

I never said that ethnic pride can not also be about healing shame. I just am open to the possibility that ancestral pride could exist without any connection to healing shame and without any connection to the issues of who is inferior or superior or who is "Us and who is Them".

It seems that you have quite a bias. What's with all the references to "the geeky white Americans" and the "poor white southerners"? Just labels, doesn't mean much. I am interested in testing the idea that much of the conservative coalition has evolved out of Southern trauma from losing the civil war. But there is another issue of cultural conservatives believing tradition and discipline as opposed to cultural liberals believing in kindness and economic conservatives believing efficiency.

I am a basically a white geek from a white geek subculture despite my having ventured out of traditional safe zones for geeks. A bunch of people here at sciforums who criticize theists remind me of my atheist geek MIT grad dad who was proud of his logic and atheism to the point of being rude to people at times. But my dad had gaping blind spots to which he would not apply the logic that he was so proud of. The pride and disdain with which some people proclaim the truth of what they think is Empiricism but which is actually not so logical physicalism reminds me vaguely of racism but reminds me more of my dad and his pride. I think if a person is going act superior based on their belief that they are more logical than they know were logic leads if you follow logic as far as you can go with it and they should know what is and is not logic and not mistake the culture of physicalism for logic. It was this debate in the philosophy section that recently got me writing about geekyness as a subculture.

The problem with White Pride is that it simply screams 'racism!' because of the KKK, but there is nothing wrong with being proud of your skin color, white or black.

Agreed.

I don't think it's about scapegoating for anyone. Yes, people with white skin ensalved African Americans and killed the Native Americans, but that doesn't mean that all people with white skin had any part in that awful time.

Who says that "all people with white skin had any part in that awful time"? Who is making you and others feel blamed and oppressed and how did I avoid feeling that way if your experience is the normal white experience in the USA?

White American people, from all different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, have carried the guilt of slavery on their backs for as long as I can remember,

Maybe I would understand the anger at political correctness if I understood the guilt. Why are you carrying the guilt and I am not when we both are White?

For me I have some intellectual ideas about redress and justice and what should be done now but these are just coming from my intellect and my sense of ethics. My sense of ethics does hook into my emotions but I don't think I have racial guilt.

even when their ancestors were never in the country at the time, never took part in such terrible acts, and even when they are guiltless simply because they never did such things or were even alive during the time it happened.

Philosophically I feel that new immigrants to America should help bear the burden of doing whatever is necessary to help blacks heal from the legacy of their experience in America. If affirmative action works then affirmative action should be policy and the new immigrants should not be jealous of blacks getting special help if the government choses to give blacks any special help. Really the "special help" is overrated by Limbaugh's audience and affirmative action as it is is not much help. Blacks don't want to hear that they are damaged and many blacks are not damaged but I have lived in some messed up predominantly black areas and I have seen that the damage from the past is not over until black parents don't pass more dysfunction down to their children than White and Asian parents pass to their children.

When you buy a corporation you get it's debts and it's assets. Immigrants should understand that when they move to the USA get the benefits and obligations of America. But America's debt to the blacks in the nations debt. This debt is not the personal responsibility of any individual Whites. This debt is the collective responsibility of every citizen of the USA and owing this debt should be no more shameful than owing a debt because you bought a corporation that was found guilty in court of poisoning people with toxic waste prior to your purchase of the corporation.

Racial issues will always be there and scapegoating goes both ways. It's not sensical for a Black American who is 20 years old as of today to blame a White American who is 20 years old as of today for slavery or racism. The past hurts, but it can be healed if we move forward together, rather then pointing fingers and blaming each other.

Why does my upstairs black neighbor hate me because I am White if I am correct about him hating me because I am White. I don't think he hates me because of what he thinks my ancestors did. If he hates me (and I feel that he does hate me but his black girlfriend doesn't hate me) then my feeling is that he hates me because of what he thinks that I feel about blacks and him.

Another black neighbor in my condo complex told me that he knows which whites in our building hate blacks and which Whites don't hate blacks and he won't speak to the whites who hate blacks. This crap is very sad when I have to be aware of it but it is mostly about what we think each others attitudes are now and it is not as much about people saying and doing cruel things to express racism.

Many people, White people included, want to take pride in their ethnicity and their culture. Even while living in America, many people do not consider themselves 'American', instead they prefer to claim the heritage of where they originally came from.

This sounds a bit like the conservative radio accusations against the Mexican immigrants. Please don't believe the conservative talkers. These Mexicans immigrants even if illegal immigrants are not much different in attitude towards America than the previous European immigrants were.

I don't remember meeting people who were citizens of the USA who did not consider themselves 'American', instead they prefer to claim the heritage of where they originally came from. I have met people who are very attached to where they came from but unless they thought they would return to live where they came from they did consider themselves Americans.

I knew Indian computer programmers on H1b visa's who don't think their Americans but they are not Americans they are guest workers who theoretically will be returning to India eventually.

That doesn't make them less American in the eyes of society, but to say that everyone is proud to be an American is a generalization. It also doesn't mean that every White person thinks that to be American you have to be White.

I have know some hard core lefties who are so disgusted with cruelty that they associate with America and American patriotism that they have sort of renounced their American identity but these people were thoroughly American and had no other ethnicity other than generic white American. Of course not everybody thinks you have to be white to be American.

You are trying to distinguish ethnic pride from racial pride when for certain people there is no difference. For many White Americans, their ethnic pride has no value to them because they've been told their whole lives that 'to be an American if the best they can be' and that is all they are.

What would white pride be? American women's magazine cover models are usually white, is that white pride? I just can't think of how to be white. I know I am white but how could I go about acting proud of being white?

I can't say that all American blacks are interested in their blackness even though it may be harder for them to forget about there blackness in America than it is for me to forget about my whiteness.

I may have instincts to be interested in history and ancestry but somebody else may not have those instincts. Attitudes towards ones ancestry my be inherited like the tendency towards shyness.

Who would be told to just be American and give up ethnic pride? Recent immigrants? My experience may be so different from you and others. nobody cared whether I did or did not have ethnic pride or whether I did or did not have white pride. It was all up to me and I am not aware of anybody trying to influence me.

When a person is descended from a bunch of different nations that might diminish their ethnic pride because how do you choose which ethnicity to be proud of.

Not to mention that racism is their fault. And slavery. And that to be White is something to be ashamed of because white ppl have such a negative history.

Nobody tried to push that attitude on me. I have wanted the inclusion of negative history in the telling of American history simply because I like accuracy.

I think the negative history reflects on humans not on whiteness. Dogs are often cruel to other dogs and we don't judge dogs. Angels are an Ideal of virtue and understanding. The sooner that humans accept that humans are something in between dogs and angels the sooner we can start improving our solutions for correcting bad human behavior.

The past is the past, why would anybody feel guilty about the past when the only use that remembering the past has is to learn from the past. This is as true about problems within families as it is about problems between races.

For White people it is much harder to distinguish ethnic pride from racial pride without coming off as a racist. If I were to walk down the street with a shirt that read 'White Pride' ppl would assume I was a racist.

Yes it would be hard. The White Pride Tshirt that would be misinterpreted as being racist and anti-minority due to American history. Other than wearing a white pride Tshirt or singing White pride songs how do you have white pride?

Can we go to the white food restaurant and eat some white food? Let's take are kids to the White museum. What could you put in the White museum? What is White culture? How can we celebrate white culture if there is no such thing as white culture?

It's the assumption that all White Americans are to blame for racism that is wrong.
Who is making this assumption? I don't feel that way.

Why should I not be proud to be who I am? Why does White Pride = Racism? At the University they gave me a convenient term: Reverse-Racism. Not Racism. Reverse-Racism. As if racism began with White people. That is just a bunch of bullshit.

Be proud of who you are. I don't see anything wrong in that.

Racism is racism. Go tell them to be logical. If somebody wants to say White racism was different because Whites had more power recently then they should say whites had more power and not try to say that racism without power is not racism.

But, "Affirmative Action" is not reverse racism. Affirmative action may be reverse discrimination but it is not reverse racism. Racism is racism and the term "reverse racism" is not a useful term.

If anybody tells you racism began with White people tell them to learn world history. Tell them to learn about the Japanese attitudes towards the Ainu.

Another generalization. Many White people are proud to be White, but feel afraid to express it for fear that they will be labeled racists. Afraid to express what exactly? How would one express white pride?

You should have seen some of my classes in college. Half the time, White people wouldn't even speak for fear that if they said the smallest thing in defense of the White race the rest of the class would attack them.

What sort of statements would get a person in trouble? Are you saying anything a white person says can and will be used against them and twisted into them being racists?

Anything a minority person says also be twisted into them being however that minority is disparaged but that probably would be done in private or on conservative talk radio.

Racism is prevalent, it is real, and it happens to EVERYONE. And to say that there is no White pain to be healed is very presumptive. As I've mentioned before, White Americans have carried the burden of slavery on their backs whether they were ever involved or knew anyone involved or not.

Ok, whites hurt too.

I'm not sure who I would say it to. I've been told my whole life not to declare it, so I guess I've never thought about when it would be appropriate to shout "White Pride!", like other races shout "Black pride" or "Latino Pride" ect.

Your average person of other races don't shout black pride or latino pride very often.

Before people get bitter and start blaming other people about them not being allowed to express themselves I think the people should figure out what it is that they are not allowed to express and be sure that they know who would punish them in which way if they did express themselves.

*Sigh*. No. I am not afraid I am a racist. Sorry. I do believe you.

Once again, you are generalizing. Why, as a White American, would I have "no trace of emotional issues around race"? That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
That is not what I meant. I must have written poorly.

When I was in high school I changed oil for 4 years. I worked with all different types of people; convicts, felons, hookers, pimps, college students, drop-outs, blacks, whites, asians, hispanics...it goes on....but I will tell you this, I have never been racist EVER to anyone, but when I changed oil (working mostly with men) I have never experienced so much racism in my life for being White. The Black men hated me and if they didn't hate me for being White they hated me because I was a woman changing oil and telling them what to do. To them I was the devil. For me, I was just doing my job, 15 years old, running an oil shop and trying to keep my head down to avoid the racism and sexism lest I lose my temper and beat the shit out of someone.

When I dated a man who was half-black, I experienced racism and bigotry like never before. It was astonishing to me how close-minded ppl still were about bi-racial relationships and this was fucking 2002! Not to mention the shit I got from some of my white friends. And my boyfriends black friends hated me. It was awful.

I get it. Racism is bad and has hurt you and hurts whites as well as minorities.

I hope racism ends some generation.

So, once again, I am not a racist, nor am I afraid that I am. I'm proud to be white. I'm proud to be fucking Irish with the same eyes as my mother, my aunt, my cousin, and my grandmother and my pale-ass white skin. I'm proud to be Norwegian with my barbaric heritage ;)

I have no problem with that.

I will end this ridiculously long post with a story:

The first time I was made aware that there was something wrong with being White was when I was 4 years old. I was a shy child at a young age. One day, I ended up in an elevator. It was my mother and me (both White as can be), along with a Black mother and her child about my age. The little Black girl, being friendly and not shy at all, approached me and said "hello, what's your name?" Being shy, I smiled, but cowered behind my mother's legs. Then it happened. The Black girls mother pulled her aside, glaring at me, and in an angry voice told her daughter of 4 years old, "Don't speak to her. She's White. When they don't speak to you that means they think they're better then you". I remember feeling instant shock and humilation. It was at that moment that I learned what it meant to be White and what it meant to be Black. I will never forget that moment. It's as clear as if it were yesterday. I remember the pain. Not knowing what to do or say. I knew that I must have done something bad. The little Black girl looked confused and I was left feeling shocked into silence. What could I say to make up for what I had done unintentionally? How could I change by skin color and why was I bad? My tongue was glued to the roof of my mouth. My mother, shocked and appalled and embarrassed for being White, apologized profusely, trying to explain that I was just shy and meant no offense. I remember the Black woman leaving the elevator with her little girl in tow, treating us as if we were the plauge, and not even acknowledging my mother's apologies for something so innocent as a child's shyness.

It is an interesting story. It is another example of the problem being in what people think that the other people are thinking.

The Black mother passed down to you and her daughter the legacy of American racism because what she learned to believe about what white people believe is a cancer poisoning America.

If you think racism doesn't exist for Whites then you are living in different world then me. Racism hurts everyone, but yet it is perpetrated by peoples of all colors. Racism cannot be pinned on one race alone. Like you said, scapegoating solves nothing.

I don't that think racism doesn't exist for Whites and I never intended to say that.

I am just wary of people unconsciously repeating ideas that come from the cultural conservative movement because I think cultural conservatism contains an energy to increase "Us-Them thinking" and therefore to increase racism. I think "Us-Them thinking" is a force within humans that can create all kinds of problems if not consciously resisted because "Us Them" thinking is an instinctual mechanism designed to create cultural and genetic diversity by using antagonism to separate groups of individuals from each other. There is a Darwinistic benefit to diversity because a culturally and genetically diverse species would be more capable of surviving environmental changes. But screw diversity because racism and war is to high an emotional price to pay for diversity and now that we have nuclear weapons war becomes a greater threat to the environment and the survival of the human species than lack of diversity ever was.

Anyway, I don't think you are a racist but I still am not sure that I understand why you feel that people are repressing your right to have White Pride.

Lucysnow

08-24-09, 01:10 AM

Your misreading my point. You think that I'm stereotyping white people in the image of their ancestors. No. I am arguing that white culture is reality, and is a reminder to migrants of what they have lost. Hence, it can gain negative connotations.

White culture includes pride in their history, and some aspects of that history ARE racist, and imperialist. Taking pride in those aspects, as seen by the rallies that have cropped up so far, is racist. To deny it and glaze over it, is to demean those cultures that were crushed by white culture.

I'm arguing that from the migrants point of view, This is how I perceive them to feel. Like it or not, White culture is reality. Not "Known". Reality. The migrants have to adapt to White culture. It's a good thing that they can be reminded of their own cultures for once in a while

I understand about negative connotations, being black or jewish can have negative connotations but it does not prevent pride. You seem to only focus on the aspects of the history that are racist to the exclusion of everything else including whites who fought against slavery, imperialism and racism. No one has attempted to 'glaze' over it and its unfair and untrue for you to imply there is a present day attempt to do so. When you say 'white culture which culture are you referring to? American perhaps? Because african-american culture is presently mainstream and african-american achievement is part and parcel of that culture. It is only a race minded person or a continuation of a racist paradigm that would make it otherwise. james Baldwin is an american writer not just a black writer. Sidney Poitier as an actor and his films are celebrated as american classics and have their day along with Cary Grant and other greats on the Turner Channel, they don't make a special day for him titled 'black actor day'.

Do you think that the Italians or the Chinese or poles were 'welcomed' as new immigrants in US history? They are all white and suffered from discrimination:

"Anti-Italianism is a hostility toward Italian people and Italian culture. It uses stereotypes about Italian people, a popular one being that most Italians are naturally violent, or somehow associated with the Mafia. Like most racist and biased sentiments, anti-Italianism often uses discrimination, prejudice, and even violence."

"After the American Civil War, some poor Italian immigrants were recruited to fill the place of abolished slave labor by working on Southern plantations, while Italians in the North often worked in sweat shops and factories. The Italian American's role as a hard laborer has contributed to many stereotypes that persist today. Some Americans saw the swarthy, darker skinned Italians as a “missing link” between whites and blacks.[citation needed] In some areas of the South, as well as the North, Italians were “semi-segregated”. Many native Americans viewed Italian immigrants as lowlife criminals and undesirables swarming into North America. In 1921, Congress passed a nationality-based quota which limited the number of aliens, including Italians, that were allowed to immigrate to the United States annually. The quota was not repealed until 1965."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism

Anti-Polishness in America:

"An inflow and outflow of prejudice has coloured much of Polonia's life. Since they first settled in American, Polish Americans have been aware of the prejudice of non-polish Americans towards them. Prejudice against immigrants has a long history in America; Benjamin Franklin stated that although the country needed the Scots, Irish and Germans, he was worried about having so many of them and about their behaviour." Forgetting that they had been the object of prejudice, or perhaps still reacting to it, the descendants of groups who were now considered to be 'old immigrants' expressed strong negative attitudes towards the 'new immigration' from southern and eastern Europe."

http://books.google.com/books?id=F84749XfsDoC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=polish+discrimination+in+america&source=bl&ots=mb89148B3P&sig=i7qpIIE-8v1p-eGvoz8Y59jjX58&hl=en&ei=ciqSSu6OMJG0lAeTq8WrDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=&f=false

The Chinese:

Passed in 1882, the Chinese Exclusion Act was a climax to more than thirty years of progressive racism. Anti-Chinese sentiment had existed ever since the great migration from China during the gold rush, where white miners and prospectors imposed taxes and laws to inhibit the Chinese from success. Racial tensions increased as more and more Chinese emigrated, occupied jobs, and created competition on the job market. By 1882 the Chinese were hated enough to be banned from immigrating; the Chinese Exclusion Act, initially only a ten year policy, was extended indefinitely, and made permanent in 1902. The Chinese resented the idea that they were being discriminated against, but for the most part they remained quiet. In 1943, China was an important ally of the United States against Japan, so the Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed; however, a lasting impact remained. The act was both cause and effect: it came from decades of Chinese discrimination, and initiated decades of Chinese exclusion."

"The Chinese resented the fact that they were being discriminated against, yet they continued to immigrate to the United States because they felt their opportunities in the United States were still better than in China."

http://sun.menloschool.org/~mbrody/ushistory/angel/exclusion_act/

The fact is that many new immigrants had their share of trouble while trying to make it in the United States and it didn't matter that some of these who experienced discrimination were actually white. Today Blacks, hispanics, jews, poles, chinese, Irish and Italians are all accepted as part of the fabric of american life, now its the mexicans who are suffering from discrimination but trust me this is and will change for them too. Then they can join the others in turning against whatever new guy comes along to get the short end of the stick.

iceaura

08-24-09, 02:37 AM

Today Blacks, hispanics, jews, poles, chinese, Irish and Italians are all accepted as part of the fabric of american life, now its the mexicans who are suffering from discrimination Blacks still suffer from serious discrimination, and it has never had anything to do with their being "new immigrants".

WarAgainstError

08-24-09, 04:38 AM

I think it is a case of intention as well as perception.

But racism should never be allowed.

Lucysnow

08-24-09, 09:38 AM

Blacks still suffer from serious discrimination, and it has never had anything to do with their being "new immigrants".

And I know a lot blacks who have never in their lives experienced discrimination. Perhaps economics have something to do with it maybe they just live under a lucky cloud. The fact that there are still 'racists' doesn't mean that you have to tag it on the back of all whites which would make you guilty of stereotyping all whites.

We don't say Asians are racist do we? And yet if you go to South Korea you would find a socially and culturally imbedded racism towards anyone who is not part of their tribe. Have you ever been to Korea?

Kim Rahn, Korea Times (Seoul), May 20

"In Korea, where everybody has black eyes, straight black hair and yellow skin, biracial Koreans face discrimination because of their appearance—they look different.

Moreover, they are treated differently, with indirect words and in indirect ways, people are reluctant to accept them as members of our society, only because they are biracial.

With an increasing number of Koreans marrying non-Koreans, the number of biracial people is growing. But the inhospitality and discrimination against their children have not changed with the times, and Korea is still a country where biracial people face difficulties.

There are no statistics indicating the exact number of biracial people in Korea. But a figure can be estimated from the number of people registered with the nation’s only biracial welfare agency, Pearl S. Buck International (PSBI), a foundation established by the Nobel laureate to assist children suffering racial discrimination."

"Feelings of envy toward biracial people are quite rare. And they are usually children born in nurturing families, with a father and mother where one of the parents is white. Those born from a black parent, or those living in a single parent home face many more problems, even outright hatred,” Lee Ji-young, a PSBI staff said.

The main reason for the discrimination they face is that they do not look “Korean.” Korea has long been a racially homogeneous nation."

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/05/biracial_people.php

I mean its so bad they have to make laws now. Does this sound familiar?

Korea to Enact Law against Biracial Prejudice
The Korea Herald, Posted: Aug 01, 2006

"SEOUL — The South Korean government plans to amend laws to help eliminate discrimination against mixed race people, reports the Korea Herald In Korea. A largely single-race society, biracial Koreans are victims of discrimination and prejudice in their everyday lives. Biracial children in Korea tend to underperform in school, and have a higher dropout rate than other students due to poverty and discrimination from their peers. In a 2002 survey, about 30 percent of 184 mixed-race children had dropped out before completing junior high school, according to Pearl S. Buck International, a group founded in 1964 to assist biracial people. Teachers and staff will help biracial kids socialize with their peers, and provide after-school classes and tutoring. The government is also considering setting a quota for biracial Koreans as it recruits migrant workers. As of 2003, about 35,000 of Korea's population of 48 million were mixed race. About 30,000 of them have blood ties to other Asian countries and the rest to the United States."

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=8494a2586073b1bce7372 015178968e9

Now is it fair for me to label Koreans as discriminating racist and do so for as long as there are Koreans? Of course not you would find that absurd and yet you would find more progressive liberal whites than you would Koreans on the issue of race. What a hypocrisy it is to tag it on whites alone as if they were the first and last racists. White people of course being the mother's of all racists.

Ever see how the Japanese commercial by the telecommunications company Emobile poked fun at Obama during the elections?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-lSLv9b4E

But of course whites are the only ones guilty of prejudice & discrimination.:rolleyes:

iceaura

08-24-09, 12:36 PM

And I know a lot blacks who have never in their lives experienced discrimination. Not in the US, you don't.
We don't say Asians are racist do we? Who's "we"? In my circle of sayers it's common knowledge that Japan is one of the most racist societies on earth, for example - the Japanese discuss it, it's a topic during the analysis of things like the expansion of Japanese manufacturing into the US, and so forth.

And everyone knows the spics and blacks don't necessarily get along all that well, in the US.

Who is it that you claim is saying whites are the only bigots on earth?

Lucysnow

08-24-09, 12:44 PM

Not in the US, you don't.
Who's "we"? In my circle of sayers it's common knowledge that Japan is one of the most racist societies on earth, for example - the Japanese discuss it, it's a topic during the analysis of things like the expansion of Japanese manufacturing into the US, and so forth.

And everyone knows the spics and blacks don't necessarily get along all that well, in the US.

Who is it that you claim is saying whites are the only bigots on earth?

Ah yes I do Iceaura. You behave as if african americans have a singular experience.

And concerning the Koreans and the Japanese would it be fair to rate them as all rabid haters and racists? Afterall we wouldn't find it off putting if they spoke of their heritage with pride. Also I have met some incredible and open Japanese people who were not in the least bit racist, moreover I know of african americans who live there and prefer it to the States, blacks in Japan don't fear being attacked because they are black for example. My point being that if you are looking at people then you will find a human story, if you look only at one aspect of a people and say that this alone expresses who they all are then you fall into the trap of racism and discrimination, even in the attempt to reverse said discrimination. The goal is for people to deal with each other as individuals is it not?

Discrimination of all kinds are part of the story of mankind in the broadest sense. No one group is racist above and beyond any other group since we can find examples of it in each group.

iceaura

08-24-09, 01:05 PM

Ah yes I do Iceaura. No, you don't. Pay better attention, such as to stuff like this: Also I have met some incredible and open Japanese people who were not in the least bit racist, moreover I know of african americans who live there and prefer it to the States, blacks in Japan don't fear being attacked because they are black for example.
And concerning the Koreans and the Japanese would it be fair to rate them as all rabid haters and racists? Afterall we wouldn't find it off putting if they spoke of their heritage with pride Of course not. Or the Irish and Swedes, either.

The Koreans don't confuse their heritage with the Japanese. It isn't "yellow pride", in Korea. If you look at your links involving Korean bigotry against half-breeds, you'll see it is directed mostly against "biracial" Koreans with all Asian ancestry.

Swedes who are proud of their Swedish heritage are one thing. Swedes who celebrate "white pride" are not on the same track, are they.

Lucysnow

08-24-09, 01:11 PM

Yes with Korean or Japanese blood being more important than any other. So what if they don't call it 'yellow'? Which of course is how foreigners characterized them not how they characterized themselves.

In a country that feels the need to have black pride then there is nothing wrong with white pride. Its a hypocrisy to say one is fine but not the other.

And by the way I do know african americans who have never experienced discrimination, please don't be condescending to tell me what my experience is and that of others unless of course you pretend to know the experience of all blacks.

iceaura

08-24-09, 01:57 PM

Yes with Korean or Japanese blood being more important than any other. So what if they don't call it 'yellow'? So it's not the same kind of category as "white" - it's culture specific.
In a country that feels the need to have black pride then there is nothing wrong with white pride. Its a hypocrisy to say one is fine but not the other. White is not an ethnic category, but black - in the US - is, or was until very recently. Black people in the US had, and still largely have, a common heritage created by a cultural response to plantation slavery and the subsequent racial oppression.

Whites have no such common heritage, unless you want to call that racial privilege a heritage. In which case "pride" seems a bit inappropriate.
And by the way I do know african americans who have never experienced discrimination, please don't be condescending to tell me what my experience is and that of others unless of course you pretend to know the experience of all blacks. There are no blacks raised in the US who have never experienced discrimination.

GeoffP

08-24-09, 04:58 PM

Oy vey. Must we argue about which group had it worse? This is like the four Yorkshiremen skit.

Lucysnow

08-24-09, 05:16 PM

So it's not the same kind of category as "white" - it's culture specific.
White is not an ethnic category, but black - in the US - is, or was until very recently. Black people in the US had, and still largely have, a common heritage created by a cultural response to plantation slavery and the subsequent racial oppression.

Whites have no such common heritage, unless you want to call that racial privilege a heritage. In which case "pride" seems a bit inappropriate.
There are no blacks raised in the US who have never experienced discrimination.

I agree with you Geoff but hey do you want only whitey accused of discrimination and the love of white skin?

And this shared culture means that every black person who exists in america today experience discrimination? :bugeye: What you write above though true doesn't follow through with your contention that all blacks have an experience of racism just because they share a history. But you seem to forget that blacks in the United States also come from the Caribbean and africa and they do not share this same history as african americans. Maybe you should realize there are ethnic categories. You are doing what Sam has done which is to try and simplify blacks and see them as one down-trodden monolith where the only thing that comes to mind when one refers to them is some demoralized black man standing in front of a fountain. You do it to the extent that you even deny them their different ethnicities. Shame on you.

Asians do consider themselves white and it is considered definitely better than being of a darker hue from their point of view. The following places a certain focus on Japan but its also true for most Asian countries. They would never consider themselves 'yellow':

"Highly prized as an accent to beauty in ancient times, whiter skin appearance has enjoyed a revival among women around the world. It’s more evident so in Japan where female consumers are known for their pain-taking effort to shun sunlight under parasols in summer. Even in her childhood, a Japanese woman spends a great deal of time tending to her young soft skin with a wide range and scope of basic beauty products found in any drugstore throughout the nation. And the legendary beauty of geishas depends on the whiteness and softness of the skin on the nape of their necks.

To possess ‘bihaku' (beautiful white) skin, the ideal porcelain-pale complexion, has been engrained in the Japanese culture for centuries. In the past, women used to scrub their skin with ‘nuka’ (rice hulls) for skin oxidization or grind pearls into powder for swallowing. Nowadays, consumers rely on scientists to play a major role in formulating increasingly sophisticated and safer products.

Although the myth that Asian women pursue white skin is to emulate the stereotypically Caucasian beauty, the original reason behind the obsession with the lighter skin has more to do with social class differences than ‘want what you don't have' syndrome. It was believed that a lighter complexion is associated with wealth and higher education levels, whereas darker skin alludes to a life of outdoor labor toiling in the sun.

However, over the years throughout Asia, white skin viewed as a symbol of innocence and femininity has transformed to an image of youthfulness and attractiveness to the opposite sex due to aggressively marketing by major cosmetic companies. Moreover, international film industries and advertisements clearly pushed the lighter-skinned celebrities and models as emblems of Asian beauty."

Where do you get the impression that they don't see themselves as white? I don't think their love of white skin racist as much as an obsessive aestheticism.

jessiej920

08-25-09, 12:00 AM

ripleofdeath

08-25-09, 08:23 AM

jessiej920

08-25-09, 11:55 PM

the simple answer....
i shall see if i can muster one for you.
(yes yes you said discuss)

people are corrupt !

that is your answer plain and simple, just because they are black does not mean they are not or any less racist or corrupt than a white person but the vehicle has been used to provide a position of power which will not be given up easily.

i encounter far more black/dark skinned people who are racist than white/light skinned people who are racist, they seem to out number them 3 to 1.

now if you want to get into the psychology of it all im not sure that should be public knowledge.

I agree with you. I also have had the same experiences as you, where I've encountered far more racism from Black people then I have White. People might say, "Well you're White, why would White ppl be racist to you?", but I'm talking in general. In MY experience (I put 'my experience' because obviously it doesn't state truth, but simply experience in itself) I have experienced much racism from ppl of multiple races, while I can't think of a single time I have been racist to another. I may have my own judgments, like all ppl of all colors, but I keep those judgements to myself. And, even as a White-skinned person, I have experienced racism from other White-skinned ppl. When I was in a bi-racial relationship, racism was rampant from both sides.

Pandaemoni

08-26-09, 12:15 AM

White, Black, Asian, Hispanic, Brown, Mexican, Yellow, Red, whatever the fuck you want to call yourself...racism and judgement exists for us all. We are all guilty and we are all victims.

Geoff, I agree with you. Why argue anymore? But can we move forward if we can't forget?

But there is a valid distinction to be made when the people being racist wield sufficient political and economic power to make their prejudices not merely insulting but to materially adversely impact another groups political and economic well being.

If many Blacks are prejudices against Whites, the economic impact of that may be no where near as great as the reverse. That is why many minorities define racism as not *just* prejudice on the basis of race, but prejudice plus power. (And I have known whites who hate tis definitio so much that they have labelled anyone who adheres to it racist, since it guarantees that only the dominant groups can even be "racist.")

Minority pride is seen as acceptable because the adverse impact foisted onto minorities in the past is still with us. It unbalanced the playing field and things were not immediately set back to level and fair once the civil rights movement took hold. Group cohesiveness is one way of trying to get the group as a whole into the rough position it would have been in but for past racism.

The big problem is that most people don't want a level playing field, they want to win, and that colors all of our perceptions. If minorities advance disproportionately fast relative to whites because of some policy of cultural norm that whites cannot avail themselves of, we don't especially care that the those minorities were at an inherent and unfair disadvantage to start with.

In essense. if the government or the culture in general gave minorities a ladder, we get jealous and want to know why we don't get a free ladder. If it is pointed out to us that, on average they start in a bit of hole and that we do not, we tend to thing the people who perceive a hole are crazy.

Minorities on the other hand, have the opposite problem, often overestimating the depth of the hole and expecting a longer free ladder that may be warranted.

jessiej920

08-26-09, 01:58 AM

In essense. if the government or the culture in general gave minorities a ladder, we get jealous and want to know why we don't get a free ladder. If it is pointed out to us that, on average they start in a bit of hole and that we do not, we tend to thing the people who perceive a hole are crazy.

Minorities on the other hand, have the opposite problem, often overestimating the depth of the hole and expecting a longer free ladder that may be warranted.

This sums up perfectly the way I perceive racial relations in America. Absolutely perfect. It works both ways and everyone thinks they are either not getting enough or the other person is getting more. Despite everything else, what you say right here is the truth.

For me personally, I tend to agree and behave one way, while sometimes feeling another. Though I do feel, above all else, that minority groups, racial or otherwise, should make sure they have and are getting fair representation in culture and society. Then again, life isn't fair for anyone. But then yet again, who controls the 'fairness' in our society? If we subtract race from the factor, then we know that there is only a 'handful' of elites out of the entire population who control what we experience as a society and what we experience as 'fairness'. While White-skinned people tend to dominate the elite and powerful of America, that doesn't mean though that all White-skinned people have the same power. It's the displacement of blame and the expectation of fairness that bothers me, especially when race is eliminated and we realize we are all in the same boat, being rowed by the same people, being led by those we don't know and don't relate with, and fighting a war we are not sure even belongs to us.

In the end, race will always be a touchy subject, and at some point we will all experience racism. There is no one group to blame. Racism, slavery, sexism, and bigotry have been happening since the dawn of time. Once, slavery, sexism, and bigotry was the norm for anyone and everyone. Not only did the people who began civilization anywhere and everywhere (and carry it on) own slaves of all kinds, but their people were slaves as well when they were captured by enemies. In essence, there is no one culture, race, or ethnicity who hasn't been a victim and no one culture, race, or ethnicity who hasn't been a perpetrator. We are creatures of nature and nurture, but IMO, I think mostly nurture. What we are taught when we are young carries on with us or at least follows us, obviously it haunts us no matter what.

Cliche' as it sounds, once I had to write two poems for an anthology in Jr. High about what I felt about race and racism. This whole convo made me think of them and I found the poems. It's certainly interesting to read what I wrote at such a young age, but I think it fits what I was experiencing at the time as a young, white girl who moved from the city to super-suburbia. When I moved to suburbia it was like another planet. Everything was different and I was this strange creature who didn't belong despite being White-skinned, which suburbia is dominated by. Here are the poems if you are interested:

What is Shown

Mirror so perfect in your shining clarity
What do you really show?
Do you show the slashed bits of flesh left underneath my skin?
No, of course not, it glows so healthy
Do you show the bruises left so quietly within?
No, of course not, I portray the wealthy
White, light, rich and clean
A perfect dessert for any man's taste
Fight for spite, be cruel and mean
To see the unwraveling of my life to waste
Blonde and blue and pale you show
I don’t think you really see
Your glass it paints only what you know
No difference between status and me

Life in White

Life, in white is different
More then others see
Opportunities are supposed to be laid
And wills unchained and free
But beyond this condemning color
Beyond hellish, suburban rule
Behind such glittered lies
White in life is cruel
Never mind those castles
Mansions strung with gold
The sun doesn’t shine from all windows
And steadfast this ivory fold
Though shutout from angry ghettos,
Those holes so filled with hate,
Life in white isn’t all blind
Beyond what can relate
Pain is not beyond me
This person in this white
Nor is suffering and death
Beyond this whitened sight
Demons come and take me
Take our children too
Gold does not stop evil
From what the 'devil' do
Blood is often spilled
Yes, on this whitened ground
Between such spiteful cruelty
There is death where white is found
Beyond the rich façade
Of suburban 'paradise'
There’s a darkness lurking in
This white that’s held in ice
So eyes who do not see
That white is desperate too
There then can never be
A bridge between the two
So here we are still standing
Divided because of white
Seeming that all is given
In the other’s darkened sight
But if black and white should merge
To see eye to eye one day
Then happiness might be found
When black and white are gray

ripleofdeath

09-03-09, 07:51 PM

i just wish people would shut the hell up about their damn skin colour and stop being such whiney biatches.

but... people want to try and get leverage to be number one and they will use what ever they think they can get away with;
that is because they were hit as a child.
they have no self control and will push until they get a punch in the face.

i don't give a flying fuck what your stupid skin colour is or what your stupid ethnicity is.
if your not a freindly person who pursues non violence
then
your just another sheeple to me and you may as well be defined by your skin colour.

Betrayer0fHope

09-04-09, 06:20 PM

Protip: guy above me is racist.

Lucysnow

09-04-09, 07:07 PM

Well lets put it this way Riple, if its not silly to be proud of ones sexuality (gay pride) then why is it silly to be proud of ones skin color?

ripleofdeath

09-27-09, 07:54 PM

Well lets put it this way Riple, if its not silly to be proud of ones sexuality (gay pride) then why is it silly to be proud of ones skin color?

why ?

because ! thats why.
the dice is already loaded in peoples minds from birth.
a racist is not created by a lightning strike.
they are bread and nurtured by their parents and community.

there are vastly more racists than there are gay people.
and... being proud of something you have no ability to change is a fake precept to bolster ones own ego just like women say "oh i didnt like him anyway" etc etc ...
or men when they say "oh yeah i fucked her already" (when they didnt).

its all bullshit.

if you want to be known for your skin colour then your a racist

why is it that the word nigger can be used in songs on tv but the word slut cant ?

answer me that !

Doreen

09-27-09, 08:00 PM

Well lets put it this way Riple, if its not silly to be proud of ones sexuality (gay pride) then why is it silly to be proud of ones skin color?
I think we should take the word 'pride' with a grain of salt.

If you have been told you are piece of shit for being a certain thing, it can be really quite healthy to speak about pride in the adjustment period. Often what people really mean by pride is absence of self-hate. If you've never been made to feel bad for whatever you are, I don't think pride is something equivalent to say, anger, or some other feeling. You just don't feel bad or on the defensive about it.

amark317

09-28-09, 07:58 AM

John99

09-28-09, 08:04 AM

If you've never been made to feel bad for whatever you are, I don't think pride is something equivalent to say, anger, or some other feeling. You just don't feel bad or on the defensive about it.

and who hasnt?

sniffy

09-28-09, 09:00 AM

Here's me trying to leave the forumses behind and then I come across a thread like this and, well, I just can't help myself!

One drop of blood this; yellow blood that; culture this; race that; faith t'other, nationality poondawg!

If I was brought up in the forest by a pack of wild wolves what would I be proud of?

Howling.

If YOU didn't invent the fire, or the needle, or the axe or the wheel....what the hell have you got to be proud of?

Think about that for a while people, after all you are human.......

For now, I'm howling.

Enmos

09-28-09, 09:02 AM

If I was brought up in the forest by a pack of wild wolves what would I be proud of?

Howling.

And what would the wolves be proud of?
Think about that for a while.

sniffy

09-28-09, 09:06 AM

And what would the wolves be proud of?
Think about that for a while.

Are you making a point?

ripleofdeath

09-28-09, 09:16 AM

Doreen;
eloquently put.

Here's me trying to leave the forumses behind and then I come across a thread like this and, well, I just can't help myself!
One drop of blood this; yellow blood that; culture this; race that; faith t'other, nationality poondawg!
If I was brought up in the forest by a pack of wild wolves what would I be proud of?
Howling.
If YOU didn't invent the fire, or the needle, or the axe or the wheel....what the hell have you got to be proud of?
Think about that for a while people, after all you are human.......
For now, I'm howling.

Sniffy ... SPOT ON !
the very concept being instilled is one of inadequacy by its very nature of negative reinforcement.

sniffy

09-28-09, 09:47 AM

Are you whatever people say you are? Or are you whatever you say you are? Or do you let you your actions speak for you?

Mr MinM over to you:

Whatever
Dre just let it run
Ay yo turn the beat up a little bit
Ay yo, this song is for anyone
Fuck it just shut up and listen

Ay yo
I sit back with this pack of zigzags
And this bag of this weed
It gives me the shit needed to be
The most meanest emcee on this - on this earth
Cause since birth I've been cursed with this curse to just cursed
And just blurt this bezerk and bizarre shit that works
And it sells and it helps in its self
To relieve all this tension dispensing me
Sentence is getting it, stress has been eating me recently
All through this chest and I rest to get peacefully
But at least have the decency in you to leave me alone
When you freaks see me out in the streets when I'm eating or feedin' my daughter
To not come and speak to me
I don't know you and no I don't owe you a motherfuckin thing
I'm not Mr. NSYNC and I'm not what your friends think
I'm not Mr. Friendly
I can be a prick, if you tip me my tank is on empty
No patience is in me and if you offend me I'm lifting you ten feet
In the air, I don't care who was there and who saw me just jaw you
Go call you a lawyer file you a lawsuit
I'll smile in the courtroom and buy you a wardrobe
I'm tired of arguing - I don't mean to mean but it's all I can be
It's just me

And I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the papers, the news, everyday I am
Radio won't even play my jam

Cause I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the papers, the news, everyday I am
I don't know it's just the way I am

Sometimes I just feel like my father, I hate to be bothered
With all of this nonsense it's constant
And "oh it's just lyrical content!"
The song "Guilty Conscience" has gotten such rotten responses
And all of this controversy circles me
And it seems like the media immediately points a finger at me
So I point one back at 'em
But not the index or the pinky or the ring or the thumb
It's the one you put up when you don't give a fuck
When you won't just put up with the bullshit they pull
Cause they full of shit too
When a dude's gettin bullied and shoots up your school
And they blame it on Marilyn - and the heroin
Where were the parents at?
And look at where it's at middle America
Now it's a tragedy
Now it's so sad to see
An upper class city having this happening
Then attack Eminem cause I rap this way
But I'm glad cause they feed me the fuel
That I need for the fire to burn and it's burnin' and I have returned

And I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the papers, the news, everyday I am
Radio won't even play my jam

Cause I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the papers, the news, everyday I am
I don't know it's just the way I am

I'm so sick and tired of being admired
That I wish that I would just die or get fired
And drop from my label and stop with the fables
I'm not gonna be able to top what my name is
And pigeon holdin' to some poppy sensations
They cop me rotation at Rock 'N' Roll stations
And I just do not have the patience
To deal with this cocky Caucasians
Who think I'm some wigga who just tries to be black
Cause I talk with an accent and grab on my balls
So they always keep asking the same fucking questions
What school did I go to?
What hood I grew up in?
The why? The who, what?
When and where and the how?
Till I'm grabbing my hair and I'm tearing it out
You've been driving me crazy, I can't take it
I'm racing, I'm pacing, I stand and I sit
And I'm thankful for every fan that I get
But I can't take a shit in the bathroom
Without someone standing by it
No I won't sign your autograph
You can call me an asshole
I'm glad cause

And I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the papers, the news, everyday I am
Radio won't even play my jam

Cause I am
Whatever you say I am
If I wasn't, then why would I say I am?
In the papers, the news, everyday I am
I don't know it's just the way I am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_8SKZhhMg

Enmos

09-28-09, 09:53 AM

Are you making a point?

Yes, but you haven't thought about, have you? :p

sniffy

09-28-09, 09:57 AM

Wolf howling:

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mEVsmeDknA

sniffy

09-28-09, 09:59 AM

Yes, but you haven't thought about, have you? :p

Haven't I?

Wolves come in packs not prides....

Enmos

09-28-09, 10:04 AM

Haven't I?

Wolves come in packs not prides....

The point was that pride is a human thing and it causes problems such as those described in the OP.

sniffy

09-28-09, 10:19 AM

The point was that pride is a human thing and it causes problems such as those described in the OP.

Damn humans! :rolleyes:

But the main point is by all means be proud of what people who look like you have achieved but at the end of the day what have you got to be proud of, ya know, besides taking credit for someone else's doing?

Or to put it another way:

We's all humans. NOT wolves. Or snails. Or goldfish.

What as an individual have you done to be proud of?

Doesn't have to be inventing the internal combustion engine now, does it?

Enmos

09-28-09, 10:28 AM

Damn humans! :rolleyes:

But the main point is by all means be proud of what people who look like you have achieved but at the end of the day what have you got to be proud of, ya know, besides taking credit for someone else's doing?

Or to put it another way:

We's all humans. NOT wolves. Or snails. Or goldfish.

What as an individual have you done to be proud of?

Doesn't have to be inventing the internal combustion engine now, does it?

It doesn't have to be about what 'your group' has achieved in the past.
Being in a group in itself seems to be enough to be proud of it for some people.

sniffy

09-28-09, 10:47 AM

It doesn't have to be about what 'your group' has achieved in the past.
Being in a group in itself seems to be enough to be proud of it for some people.

Ain't that what I'm saying!!?? Just cos you got a white face you can take personal credit for what white face has done in the past? Cos you got black face you can take personal credit for what black face has done in the past? Get out of my face!

Hell! We are all in the same damn group anyway; the homo sapiens group......

So there is grounds for equal pride or equal shame depending how up or down you are on that particualr group :D

Humans have shat on humans (and other species) throughout history, often with the rather convenient help of another set of humans. If you don't like the taste of shit; make sure you lead, follow, or get out of the damn way.

And whilst I am throwing cliches about this one seems appropriate:

'If you're not part of the solution; then you're part of the problem.'

Enmos

09-28-09, 10:53 AM

Ain't that what I'm saying!!?? Just cos you got a white face you can take personal credit for what white face has done in the past? Cos you got black face you can take personal credit for what black face has done in the past? Get out of my face!

Hell! We are all in the same damn group anyway; the homo sapiens group......

So there is grounds for equal pride or equal shame depending how up or down you are on that particualr group :D

Humans have shat on humans (and other species) throughout history, often with the rather convenient help of another set of humans. If you don't like the taste of shit; make sure you lead, follow, or get out of the damn way.

And whilst I am throwing cliches about this one seems appropriate:

'If you're not part of the solution; then you're part of the problem.'

I'm only proud of what I might achieve, not about what other achieve. And yes, I think we agree :o

About our shared group; there is more reason for shame than for pride.

Anyone know what the solution is? I wanna be part of it..

sniffy

09-28-09, 10:58 AM

Anyone know what the solution is? I wanna be part of it..

I doubt it's a collective or final one.

Apart from maybe being human. A theme of mine to those in the know ;)

....and humans can be so very beastly.

Enmos

09-28-09, 11:09 AM

I doubt it's a collective or final one.
:eek: I hope it's not.. :p

Ok, that was tasteless.. :o

Apart from maybe being human. A theme of mine to those in the know
I know what you mean, but I consider that an insult to non-human animals.

....and humans can be so very beastly.
They We ARE beasts.

sniffy

09-28-09, 11:13 AM

They We ARE beasts.

:o I think I may be a bit too subtle sometimes enmos.....:o

I know humans are beasts...... and so uniquely beastly sometimes. ;)

Enmos

09-28-09, 11:14 AM

:o I think I may be a bit too subtle sometimes enmos.....

I know humans are beasts...... and so uniquely beastly sometimes. ;)

I know that that's what you meant, I just wanted to say it :p

sniffy

09-28-09, 11:19 AM

I know that that's what you meant, I just wanted to say it :p

You beast! :eek:

TSchmee

10-06-09, 02:32 PM

I can think of an example of a non-offensive, peaceful and (mostly) socially acceptible celebration of European heritage:

The Rennaissance Faire. ;)

ripleofdeath

10-06-09, 07:22 PM

i must say i am sick to death of black & dark skinned people expecting me to prove i am not racist and show some type of assimilation to their culture.

SICK OF IT !

this type of overt racist separatist aggression is growing old very fast.
&
is fostering retaliatory racist ideology in young people with plenty of working examples to draw from.

the tide is turning and the king is sitting on his thrown screaming at the sea.

Dirty Dan

10-06-09, 07:31 PM

minority racial groups expect whites to be held to a different standard of public behavior than themselves. it's been that way for twenty years. Songs with anti-white lyrics are celebrated by blacks everywhere. But if you get don imus on the radio calling a group of girls nappy-headed hos, and then apologize for it, you can bet that al sharpton will immediately see to it that he's fired -- which imus was.

For those who don't know, al sharpton is a self-promoting instigator of racial unrest who, along with jessie jackson, masquerades as a black civil rights activist. Sharpton is the one who shows up whenever anything even *remotely* racial is happening. If there are any black people involved, and if they're clashing with any white people (whether it's due to racial reasons or not), then you can bet that reverend al will eventually jump on it. Then he pours as much gasoline onto the proverbial fire as it takes for them to get another spot on the 11 o'clock news.

He is also the racist, flaming shitwheel who completely fabricated the infamous tawana brawley case (look it up) back in 1987, and he did so in order to (1) make himself famous and (2) attack some white cops on the nyc police force that he and his followers didn't like. Al sharpton also once dreamt of being the nation's first black president. During his one and only presidential campaign, sharpton used his campaign contributions to line his own pockets, by claiming that the money was needed to help support his "ministry" while he was busy with the duties of campaigning. Apparently, reverend al's ministry includes a swimming pool, a sauna, and a maid. I guess he needs all of that stuff to get closer to jesus. What he deserves is a prison sentence.

What we're faced with is an ethnic group that on the one hand, screams that they want equality. On the other hand, they say and do all sorts of self-defeating things which willingly draw a dividing line between themselves and every other ethnic group. That's not moving towards integration and equality -- that's moving backwards, into even worse divisiveness and mutual mistrust.

bravo!

ripleofdeath

10-08-09, 06:48 PM

seconded ! excellent post !

bravo!
Originally Posted by willnever
===================

minority racial groups expect whites to be held to a different standard of public behavior than themselves. it's been that way for twenty years. Songs with anti-white lyrics are celebrated by blacks everywhere. But if you get don imus on the radio calling a group of girls nappy-headed hos, and then apologize for it, you can bet that al sharpton will immediately see to it that he's fired -- which imus was.

For those who don't know, al sharpton is a self-promoting instigator of racial unrest who, along with jessie jackson, masquerades as a black civil rights activist. Sharpton is the one who shows up whenever anything even *remotely* racial is happening. If there are any black people involved, and if they're clashing with any white people (whether it's due to racial reasons or not), then you can bet that reverend al will eventually jump on it. Then he pours as much gasoline onto the proverbial fire as it takes for them to get another spot on the 11 o'clock news.

He is also the racist, flaming shitwheel who completely fabricated the infamous tawana brawley case (look it up) back in 1987, and he did so in order to (1) make himself famous and (2) attack some white cops on the nyc police force that he and his followers didn't like. Al sharpton also once dreamt of being the nation's first black president. During his one and only presidential campaign, sharpton used his campaign contributions to line his own pockets, by claiming that the money was needed to help support his "ministry" while he was busy with the duties of campaigning. Apparently, reverend al's ministry includes a swimming pool, a sauna, and a maid. I guess he needs all of that stuff to get closer to jesus. What he deserves is a prison sentence.

What we're faced with is an ethnic group that on the one hand, screams that they want equality. On the other hand, they say and do all sorts of self-defeating things which willingly draw a dividing line between themselves and every other ethnic group. That's not moving towards integration and equality -- that's moving backwards, into even worse divisiveness and mutual mistrust.
===================

sounds like this al sharpton character is a hater evil spreader just looking for excuses to vent his own personal hate.
i have encountered this quite often in preacher type people.
they go about screaming at others and telling everyone else how evil they are so they can validate their hate and emotional abuse toward everyone else.

a true preacher preaches love and non violence.
facilitates discussion and aids in seeking forgiveness.

how pathetic and miss guided people are to follow haters who are infact spreading evil while parading around in the frocks of the churches.

these type of people want a war and want to be the god of that war.

they define themselves by the very existence of hate and anger and the more hate and anger there is the more fulfilled they feel and self validated.

they are a scourge ambulance chasing type of evil propagator and should be excised from the community.