Independence Day or Freedom at Midnight

[S.A.M.]

The US-Iraq extended temporary SOFA expires at midnight tonight. After 12 am Baghdad time, the US occupation of Iraq will be officially illegal.

Its Independence Day. :D :thankyou:

[cosmictraveler]

The U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: "Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq") is a status of forces agreement (SOFA) approved by the Iraqi government in late 2008 between Iraq and the United States.

It establishes that U.S. combat forces will withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011, subject to possible further negotiations which could delay withdrawal and a referendum scheduled for mid-2009 in Iraq which may require U.S. forces to completely leave by the middle of 2010.

WIKI

So all they need do is redo the agreemewnt before midnight and then it continues on.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Independence Day? I would better say Puppet State Day.

[S.A.M.]

Yeah I'm sure the Iraqis will turn out to vote in large numbers for the referendum.

[Norsefire]

So what happens after it becomes illegal?

Do they [US soldiers] get the rope? I wanna see!

[S.A.M.]

Norse:
They have exactly one year to leave


Why?

A lack of referndum ratification as required by articles 2 and 3 of the ratification law and a failure of the Iraqi government to amend the ratification law to provide an extension of time to hold the referendum

[NiccolòBrioschi]

So what happens after it becomes illegal?

Do they [US soldiers] get the rope? I wanna see!

Are you serious?

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Norse:
They have exactly one year to leave




A lack of referndum ratification as required by articles 2 and 3 of the ratification law and a failure of the Iraqi government to amend the ratification law to provide an extension of time to hold the referendum

There is always a way to bypass a referendum... In Italy they do it every single time.

[Norsefire]

Are you serious?

You're damn right. At least the high command. They go in there tearing up the place, killing people, destroying everything, you're damn right I wanna see some bodies hang.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

You're damn right. At least the high command. They go in there tearing up the place, killing people, destroying everything, you're damn right I wanna see some bodies hang.

Impossible.

[S.A.M.]

You're damn right. At least the high command. They go in there tearing up the place, killing people, destroying everything, you're damn right I wanna see some bodies hang.

I hope you're not living in the US still, you heard of the Patriot Act?

[Norsefire]

Impossible. I know it's not going to happen:(
But, it'd be great if it did. Some fireworks in the background too!

I hope you're not living in the US still, you heard of the Patriot Act?

It's a bunch of shit. Yes I have heard of it.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

I hope you're not living in the US still, you heard of the Patriot Act?

He is a subversive.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

I know it's not going to happen:(
But, it'd be great if it did. Some fireworks in the background too!



It's a bunch of shit. Yes I have heard of it.

I agree.

[S.A.M.]

Who Norse? He's been through three different religions and political affiliations in the last year alone. I think he's evolving into an anarchist.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Who Norse? He's been through three different religions and political affiliations in the last year alone. I think he's evolving into an anarchist.

Really? I thought he was a convinced atheist...

[S.A.M.]

There is an About the members thread on him somewhere/

[Norsefire]

I am an atheist.....but, what exactly does this have to do with the discussion?

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Back on track... The invasion was wrong for sure, but is the country stable now? In other words, would it fall into anarchy without the U.S. Army?

[Norsefire]

Back on track. The invasion was wrong for sure, but is the country stable now? In other words, would it fall into anarchy without the U.S. Army?

No, it's not stable, and the US ruined it. The best thing to do now is to leave, and let the Iraqi people deal with it.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

No, it's not stable, and the US ruined it. The best thing to do now is to leave, and let the Iraqi people deal with it.

It's our fault also... But I don't think that leaving would be a good idea. Economically it's expensive to stay, but the West must mantain the price of crude oil at a reasonable level, further instability in the region would probably cause OPEC to raise the price. There is also the moral question...

[Norsefire]

How great, it's on the matter of oil, instead of lives, that we will decide whether or not we stay.

I say we leave immediately.

[S.A.M.]

When adding salt to a pudding ruins it, adding more salt will not save it.

You don't want your country filled with the people who killed your families.

[Norsefire]

When adding salt to a pudding ruins it, adding more salt will not save it.

You don't want your country filled with the people who killed your families.

Exactly, and I think they ought to pay, but that's not going to happen. As Hitler said, ' the Victor will never be asked if he told the truth'

[NiccolòBrioschi]

How great, it's on the matter of oil, instead of lives, that we will decide whether or not we stay.

I say we leave immediately.

However, we created the problem and it's up to us to give a solution.

[S.A.M.]

The most difficult part of any occupation is getting over the realisation that the people who destroyed your country, your people, your historical monuments, who killed your children, your parents your friends, who bombed you homes, your school, who destroyed the streets you grew up in and imposed their ways upon you, will go home, embrace their families and sleep in their own beds.

They will not be accountable for their crimes far greater than those of the most violent criminals in prison.

[Norsefire]

However, we created the problem and it's up to us to give a solution.

The solution is to leave.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

When adding salt to a pudding ruins it, adding more salt will not save it.

You don't want your country filled with the people who killed your families.

You are right.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

The most difficult part of any occupation is getting over the realisation that the people who destroyed your country, your people, your historical monuments, who killed your children, your parents your friends, who bombed you homes, your school, who destroyed the streets you grew up in and imposed their ways upon you, will go home, embrace their families and sleep in their own beds.

They will not be accountable for their crimes far greater than those of the most violent criminals in prison.

The winner is always the winner.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

The solution is to leave.

Then it will be civil war.

[Norsefire]

Then it will be civil war.

For them. Not for us.

I do honestly care about them, too, because I am an Arab, but the US isn't helping.

[S.A.M.]

You're an Arabised Assyrian. :rolleyes:

You're as Arab as I am British.

[Norsefire]

You're an Arabised Assyrian.

You're as Arab as I am British.

Well I don't know if I'm Arab ethnically but culturally I am originally an Arab

[S.A.M.]

Well I don't know if I'm Arab ethnically but culturally I am originally an Arab

I've met Saudi Arabs and I've met Syrians. I wouldn't say they have the same culture. Maybe a shared history and a shared language [which is not irrelevant, its quite a history] but Assyrian culture is much much older and well established.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Maybe both, I mean, to leave and to stay, are the wrong choice... Because the premise was wrong.

[Norsefire]

I've met Saudi Arabs and I've met Syrians. I wouldn't say they have the same culture. Maybe a shared history and a shared language [which is not irrelevant, its quite a history] but Assyrian culture is much much older and well established. And superior, o' course;)

Maybe both, I mean, to leave and to stay, are the wrong choice... Because the premise was wrong.
The best option is to leave.

[S.A.M.]

Maybe both, I mean, to leave and to stay, are the wrong choice... Because the premise was wrong.

Now that I can agree on. Perhaps they could avoid the precipitous departure of Afghanistan post mujahideen which spiralled Afghanistan downwards into fundamentalism. The post war Japanese and German reconstruction model is much better.

[Norsefire]

Now that I can agree on. Perhaps they could avoid the precipitous departure of Afghanistan post mujahideen which spiralled Afghanistan downwards into fundamentalism. The post war Japanese and German reconstruction model is much better.

No, it's not.

However to pay for the damages and also to punish the soldiers, they can take it out of their pay! So all of the soldiers end up with nothing, because their pay should be confiscated and their property back in the US too.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Now that I can agree on. Perhaps they could avoid the precipitous departure of Afghanistan post mujahideen which spiralled Afghanistan downwards into fundamentalism. The post war Japanese and German reconstruction model is much better.

This is what I meant.

[S.A.M.]

No, it's not.

However to pay for the damages and also to punish the soldiers, they can take it out of their pay! So all of the soldiers end up with nothing, because their pay should be confiscated and their property back in the US too.

I think the veterans already have enough problems.

This is what I meant.

But who will pay for this? The situation is quite different now, the US is broke and no one else will pay/

[Norsefire]

I think the veterans already have enough problems.




I don't care about their problems, they ought to pay. Nuremberg trials for them, I say.

It will be an extreme injustice to let the soldiers and high command walk away. If I were in charge I'd have every one of them promptly hung.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

No, it's not.

However to pay for the damages and also to punish the soldiers, they can take it out of their pay! So all of the soldiers end up with nothing, because their pay should be confiscated and their property back in the US too.

Well, a stable country is always better than a burning battlefield...

[Norsefire]

Well, a stable country is always better than a burning battlefield...

Spreading democracy by the sword! Or, er, tank, I guess. Anyway, how civilized!

[NiccolòBrioschi]

I think the veterans already have enough problems.



But who will pay for this? The situation is quite different now, the US is broke and no one else will pay/

Actually, it's a big business.

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Spreading democracy by the sword! Or, er, tank, I guess. Anyway, how civilized!

Not really... Helping underdeveloped and broken countries to recover.

[Norsefire]

Not really... Helping underdeveloped and broken countries to recover.

Then let's not spread that sham democracy, let's spread capitalism!

[NiccolòBrioschi]

Then let's not spread that sham democracy, let's spread capitalism!

Democracy can't be spreaded.

[quadraphonics]

After 12 am Baghdad time, the US occupation of Iraq will be officially illegal.

In official, legal terms, the occupation ended years ago.

[Ganymede]

Who Norse? He's been through three different religions and political affiliations in the last year alone. I think he's evolving into an anarchist.

HAHAHAHA, good point. I could never figure that guy out for the life of me.

[madanthonywayne]

I don't care about their problems, they ought to pay. Nuremberg trials for them, I say.

It will be an extreme injustice to let the soldiers and high command walk away. If I were in charge I'd have every one of them promptly hung.
Nuremberg trials are held by the victors, not the losers. And comparing the US soldiers in Iraq to Nazis is absurd. There were no death camps. Nobody was made into lampshades or soap. Even Abu graib seems safer than a normal Iranian prison (over a hundred protesters died in custody recently http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/jul/29/iran-election-protest-dead-missing).

Finally, if Germany and Japan are any guide, losing a war to the US isn't such a bad thing. In fifty years or so, Iraq may well be one of the most advanced nations in the middle east.

[Norsefire]

Nuremberg trials are held by the victors, not the losers. And comparing the US soldiers in Iraq to Nazis is absurd. There were no death camps. Nobody was made into lampshades or soap. Even Abu graib seems safer than a normal Iranian prison (over a hundred protesters died in custody recently http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/jul/29/iran-election-protest-dead-missing).

It's not absurd; have you not seen some of the pictures of the torture and humiliation the Iraqis had to go through? It's not absurd. Justice ought to be served, but I doubt it will be.

Not that the terrorist groups are any better; they both need a good rope 'round their neck.

Finally, if Germany and Japan are any guide, losing a war to the US isn't such a bad thing. In fifty years or so, Iraq may well be one of the most advanced nations in the middle east.
No thanks to the US. Besides, it isn't the job of the government to interfere in affairs that don't concern it, like Iraq.

[S.A.M.]

Nuremberg trials are held by the victors, not the losers. And comparing the US soldiers in Iraq to Nazis is absurd. There were no death camps. Nobody was made into lampshades or soap. Even Abu graib seems safer than a normal Iranian prison (over a hundred protesters died in custody recently http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2009/jul/29/iran-election-protest-dead-missing).

Finally, if Germany and Japan are any guide, losing a war to the US isn't such a bad thing. In fifty years or so, Iraq may well be one of the most advanced nations in the middle east.

Are American taxpayers willing to pay for the reconstruction then? A better idea would be to impose a war tax on Americans everytime the Americans invade a country, until it is stabilised/

Funding of reconstruction efforts began with the creation of the Iraq Relief and Reconstruction Fund (IRRF) in April 2003. The IRRF is administered and funded by the United States. An initial allocation of $2.5 billion was made for immediate food, medicine and water relief.

The “Madrid Conference on Reconstruction” held in Spain October 23-24, 2003 was organized by the United States to solicit donor pledges from the international community. About $33 billion in grants and loans were pledged. Of this, $18.4 billion was from the U.S. with another $5 billion from Japan, $812 million from the EU, $500 million from Kuwait and offers of loans from World Bank and the IMF amounting from $5.5 to $9.25 billion. Some countries pledged to reduce the debt that Iraq owed to them and to provide direct donations in forms such as food and fuel. The pledge by the United States was fulfilled in November 2003 by adding $18.4 billion to the IRRF.

Much of the non-U.S. pledged money is managed through two additional funds that have been created under the facilitation of the International Reconstruction Fund Facility for Iraq.[3] The funds are managed by the United Nations Development Group (UNDG) and by the World Bank. Twenty-six donor nations participate in this effort with total pledges, as of June, 30 2006, of $1.4 billion. The United States donates a small amount to these funds but does not control their disbursement.

As of December 30, 2005 the UNDG and World Bank Funds had expended about $0.51 billion and $0.39 billion, respectively. The United States managed IRRF had expended about $11.4 billion as of March 2006.

As of 2009, current spending in Iraq seems to have increased a bit with some consideration of new projects. Since March 2003,the figure has come to a tune of $50 billion (US Dollars) - as the amount appropriated by the US congress in relief and reconstruction. A new inspectorate under the office of Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (SIGIR)is in place to oversee key essential areas of development. Among these include the establishment of new Iraq forces, creating a free market economy, and put the country on path to achieving an effective democracy. Among the most recent developments (January 2009), also include the innitiative in effect to re-define the bilateral relationship between Iraq and the United states, as a way of facilitating "future reconstruction efforts"[4]

[Baron Max]

Are American taxpayers willing to pay for the reconstruction then?...

SAM, we've been paying for it for umpty-eleven years now ....where the hell have you been? And just as we spend money to build schools or fresh water systems for the people of Iraq, the radical Muslim "insurgents" blow it up and kill more of their own people. Then we build it back up, then the Muslim insurgents blow it up again and kill more of their own people. Then we repair the damage, then the Muslim insurgents blow it up again and kill more of their own people. Then we...... Well, you get the picture, right?

A better idea would be to impose a war tax on Americans everytime the Americans invade a country, until it is stabilised/

Well, that might be one way. But just rememeber, SAM, our duly elected congressmen have been voting to fund the war every single year ...and the voters continue to vote for those congressmen.

Baron Max

[quadraphonics]

a referendum scheduled for mid-2009 in Iraq which may require U.S. forces to completely leave by the middle of 2010.

Apparently you guys all missed the little fact that the referendum in question has been delayed until January. So, there has been no change in the status of US troops in Iraq in the past few days.

In actual news, an internal Defense memo was recently leaked, which recommends accelerating the withdrawl from Iraq (and Gates has made public comments supporting such a move):

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/07/30/its_time_to_declare_victory_and_go_home