Thinking of oneself objectively: an illness?

A few possible versions of the 'illness' -

1) the brought up on marketing images objective self-image, where one is trained to imagine onself as a visual object for others who is defined by the visual objects in the visual field that one owns: brand name clothes, expensive cellphone, car, jewelery, correct hair, etc.

In this form of the illness one's idea of one's worth is based on images created by people who want to make money off of you and then reinforced by peers, movies, etc.

2) the influenced by science objective self image. This can take number of forms but many of them share a common theme: diminishment of self. 'In a hundred years we will all be dust'. 'The earth is like a speck of sand in the Sahara.' 'It's just that my serotonin levels are low.' 'we are really hairless apes'. Certain statements based on determinism can also fall into this category.

Remember, the words are not necessarily the problem, it is their use in context, often to point out that the person or self is really not that important or that some portion of yourself is not really you - serotonin levels.
One develops a 'bird's eye view' of oneself, rather then the full on in situ view.

3) the psychotherapy jargon self-analysis, where the person discusses issues they cannot resolve with 'deep understanding' and buzz words, all of which does not help them, often. actually break certain habits or patterns. Which raises the issue of whether this understanding they are displaying is really understanding, even if it is 'correct'.

'I have an authority complex because my father was such a control addict.'
I am sure you can come up with a wealth of examples and imagine the person saying these years later with the same conviction. And being right, even.

I see these different kinds of objective self-conception as potentially helpful in very, very brief moments of insight, if that, but overall I think they are grasped after as ways of distancing, maintaining control and avoiding, well, being oneself and all that implies.

I think most people could imagine 1) the obsessed teenager, 2) an emotionally repressed math professor, for example 3) the psychotherapy/self-help addict, respectively
and think that these are extremes and they have a problem, but that the normal levels of these objectifications of the self are OK.

I doubt it.

 

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Most people, I'd argue, suffer from various combinations of all three of the self-delusions you propose. Part of the Human condition, I guess--or does that answer merely point out the particular form of conditioning that I've accepted as normal?

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Well, I do have to say I like that you used the word 'delusion' here, though I am not sure many others will agree with us. I do in fact think there is something delusory about these ways of thinking even though the content of the thoughts may be 'true'.

Or to put this another way, truth is what happens, not the content of an assertion. At least sometimes.

 

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The person who insists on diminishing everyone else by stuffing them into a box as the only way to imply their superiority. The truth is, all "truth" about ourselves is only some interpretation of understanding "the truth." You're asserting, in a rather grand manner, that the people who express these ways of thinking exclusively think this way. I think anyone who relies on one way of looking at things to explain everything isn't sick; they're lackwits, every bit as much as much a lackwit as the person who insists on lumping human beings in categories.

The only rule that applies to humans consistently is that there are examples for which that rule, sometimes, is not true. We are who we are, in part, because of our culture. It doesn't just "obscure who we really are."

 

No I did not assert that. In fact I disagree with that idea, strongly.

 

Then simply thinking in those terms about some things is not an illness. If I bought Covergirl Oil of Olay whatever the hell it's officially called foundation because of an ad, you're saying I'm mentally ill because that affects how I perceive myself? Well, DUH, it affects that, even if I could have purchased a cheaper product that works just as well, but I wouldn't have tried for marketing reasons. That doesn't make me crazy; that makes the marketers smart. The fact I understand what they're doing and why it works does not make me a "victim" of personality disorder #2; it means I'm not blind.

You're a product of western culture. You likely contain all of these aspects within your personality. None of them are marked illnesses, so take heart.

 

You are overstating my case. No single incident means that to me. And more than that it is not the buying of the product, but the way we are trained to think of ourselves. you can buy products without being objective about yourself in the ways ads try to get you to.

My goal is not to make people think they are mentally ill for buying single products seen in ads. But to question whether what we think of as normal objective self conceptions might be a problem

I see you reacting to my use of the word illness and I suppose that is partly my own fault. I did want to be provocative. I think the idea that thinking objectively might be damaging might be hard for some people to even consider, especially, for example, scientists. So I was hoping a provocative opening might get them to follow through the argument. Buy your Oil of Olay and I won't think you are mentally ill.

I do however think that we are out of balance and even what seem like normal levels of the patterns I mentioned are problems. It makes me sad when I see these patterns in others and sometimes angry when i see how these are being used by some to make money, even when they consciously know they are using the fear, or even creating it, in the people they are making money off of.

and again, it is not so much the purchasing. If, for example they contribute to your seeing your skin, your hair type, your breast size
as wrong
and contribute to this habit of seeing yourself from the outside and imagining that you can fix yourself by having an ONGOING objective view of yourself
that's where I have the problem.

I do have some degree of all these patterns, even saying that is an example of it. And I do appreciate your defending of us against my
'diagnosis'.

but consider that what passes as normal in these patterns, may still be harmful. That we could be happier, more alive and more ourselves if we stopped thinking we had to do these things as much as we do.

I withdraw my illness metaphor.

But I stand by the main idea. I think we could be in much better balance and feel much better about life if we cut back even from normal levels of these patterns.

Imagine that i am supporting that life and freedom and not diagnosing people.

 

What? You just stated NOT questioning those was the problem. Which is it?

It's not provocative so much as wrong. It's like saying, "Snow is green." No, it isn't. "Damaging?" Cut me a break. You mean "limiting," I think.

And I'm so glad you don't think I'm crazy, because I really give a shit what you think.

"Balance" implies there's some magic scale on which values lie. If it did, you'd have all the problems solved!

Of course people are going to get exploited. Did it spur you into any action beyond making this thread? Am I supposed to be filled with regret I have the brains to do something I can charge a lot of money for? Does fear drive industry? Yes, it does. There's industry regulation to stop intentionally delivering a harmful/deceptive product, but beyond that, the consumer has the responsibility not to be a moron. It does not break my heart when someone isn't smart enough to look at alternatives when it comes to their own livelihoods.

If I think my skin, hair, and tits are anything other than tools/limitations to external goals, then I am an idiot, and the same goes for anyone else. We live in an image-driven society and no lone person will change that. You can have a "Don't Feel Bad About Yourself and Be a Consumerist Slave" cakewalk right through the middle of Tiananmen Square, but all in all it won't even make a dent, and maybe in that sense, teenagers are a lot smarter than grown-ups, that in "looking the part," it makes it easier to get the role/the job/the whatever.

I'm not saying everyone should be a size 0 with DD breasts and bottle blonde hair decked out in Venexiana, but don't be shocked when that person gets a benefit from that.

I don't get the feeling you appreciate it.

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I'm sorry everyone dares not fit your idea of normal. Do you honestly think we'd all be happier covered in filth crooning that perception is reality, and aren't we all better off without media and marketing? Do you really think most human sufferings can be placed on marketing and objectivism and psychoanalysis? If you're going to say yes, I want to know if you can do it with a straight face.

No, you're telling people that if they don't object to what you object to, they're mentally ill. Of course, you've softened the blow to "unhappy." I think that's painting with a pretty broad brush. Are you really willing to vouch you're happier than a successful person who readily admits they are heavily influenced by marketing, objective thinking, or self-analysis/self-help?

 

I see you did not read what I wrote and decided to take the most aggressive possible way of viewing it and how you want to respond, even when I withdrew my 'illness' metaphor and acknowledged your point around it.

I put you on ignore.

 

Haha.. pretty soon you'll be arguing with yourself

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Holy crap. So I just got an email from wise acre telling me to go fuck myself.

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That's totally NOT me being harsh, and I just did not mean for anyone to get hurt feelings over that. Whoops. I'm a little amused WA took it that personally, but it was a serious response intended to spark serious replies.

And, Enmos, wipe off that shit-eating grin!

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Gawd...

 

He did the same to me.. :shrug:
I can only imagine how many others he already put on ignore. Maybe it's time for him to realize that it might be him, instead of others..

 

Yeah:

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Oh yea, like Wise Ass is a saint.

 

See, I can see someone thinking someone thinking I'm a bitch. I don't get the whole, "Enmos is an evil bastard," thing.

Oh, puh-lease. I don't give a shit what he thinks, but that doesn't mean I want him getting his feelings hurt. He was assuring me he didn't think I was crazy, which, his opinion doesn't have a whole lot of impact. I'm just saying he probably should adjust his thought process in that perspective.

Aren't we supposed to be performing some impossible act of masturbation rather than posting in this thread?

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They're probably just scared of me

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Who me ?

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But how can a person 'be himself'?

For every attempt or claim of someone 'being himself', we can find some theory, some philosophy or worldview that will say that that claim or attempt was 'a way of distancing, maintaining control and avoiding of being oneself and all that implies'.

The same behavior can be interpreted in many different ways. So who or what is to say that a person is truly 'being himself'?

Sure. In society, there is a standard of 'normalcy'. What this standard is in particular changes over time and space, but it remains that there is the category of 'normalcy'. This category seems to be necessary for society and individuals to function.

 

Oh. So you are performing for the gallery?

 

I do enjoy your seemingly impossible acts.

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I intend first and foremost to amuse myself. I always enjoy when someone gets offended by someone dishing out what they themselves were serving. My job is not to be Mary Sunshine around here. Now, I asked some questions to the OP, and OP chose not to answer. I'd still like them answered.

 

Aren't you a sweetie!