View Full Version : Comparison of Israeli actions to the Holocaust
Is it an invalid comparison?
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/
There's a professor of international affairs in the US who is being held accountable for using the above pictures as a discussion tool.
Jewish US professor's Holocaust-Gaza comparison stirs free speech debate on campus
By ROBERT JABLON | Associated Press | May 1, 09 1:10 PM CDT
A Jewish university professor accused of anti-Semitism for comparing Israel's treatment of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to the Holocaust says he has received hundreds of messages of support and a bombardment of hate mail.
William I. Robinson, a sociology professor at the University of California, Santa Barbara, said Thursday that accusations of anti-Semitism are "absolutely outrageous" and akin to claiming someone who criticizes the regime of Iran is anti-Muslim.
He sent an e-mail Jan. 19 to 80 students in his "Sociology of Globalization" class entitled: "parallel images of Nazis and Israelis."
"Gaza is Israel's Warsaw _ a vast concentration camp that confined and blockaded Palestinians, subjecting them to the slow death of malnutrition, disease and despair, nearly two years before their subjection to the quick death of Israeli bombs," Robinson wrote. "We are witness to a slow-motion process of genocide. ..."
Robinson's message included a forwarded e-mail featuring juxtaposed photos from the Nazi era and the Gaza offensive with similar subjects, including grisly photos of children's corpses.
"This is a course on global affairs. We discuss ... the most pressing," issues, including wars, he wrote.
http://www.newser.com/article/d97tjm5g3/jewish-us-professors-holocaust-gaza-comparison-stirs-free-speech-debate-on-campus.html
Is he right or wrong?
James R
05-14-09, 11:26 PM
Is it an invalid comparison?
As usual, you're asking the wrong question.
The question you ought to be asking is: does this kind of comparison help a move towards reconciliation between Israel and Palestine?
Some additional info that pertains to criminalisation of criticism of Israel
In 2004, George W Bush pushed through the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act
On October 16, 2004, President George W. Bush signed the Israel Lobby’s bill, the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act. This legislation requires the US Department of State to monitor anti-Semitism worldwide.
Rahm Emmanuel is currently pushing for the Hate Crimes Prevention Act
Rahm Israel Emanuel hasn’t been mopping floors at the White House. As soon as he gets the Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009 passed, it will become a crime for any American to tell the truth about Israel’s treatment of Palestinians and theft of their lands.
It will be a crime for Christians to acknowledge the New Testament’s account of Jews demanding the crucifixion of Jesus.
It will be a crime to report the extraordinary influence of the Israel Lobby on the White House and Congress, such as the AIPAC-written resolutions praising Israel for its war crimes against the Palestinians in Gaza that were endorsed by 100 percent of the US Senate and 99 per cent of the House of Representatives, while the rest of the world condemned Israel for its barbarity.
It will be a crime to doubt the Holocaust.
It will become a crime to note the disproportionate representation of Jews in the media, finance, and foreign policy.
In other words, it means the end of free speech, free inquiry, and the First Amendment to the Constitution. Any facts or truths that cast aspersion upon Israel will simply be banned.
Do Americans have an opinion on this? Does anyone else?
Its already pretty clear that Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/) and Maariv (http://www.promisedlandblog.com/) have a social conscience that is absent in mainstream western media. Now that the gags are being put into place and academics and dissenters being marginalised, we'll see even less of an inquiry than the pitiful representation we now see. It will not matter what people think, because it will be decided what is appropriate for them to not think.
So much for free speech.
Source:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article159977.html
You're comparing the roundup and extermination of millions of people to the exclusion of roughly the same number.
Not the same. Sorry.
So if your community is less than a million, then their obliteration would not be a genocide?
You appear to have not understood my post. Or math. Thanks.
Not at all. I do understand it. Which is why I asked you this question
So if your community is less than a million, then their obliteration would not be a genocide?
But the question makes no sense, which is why I conclude that you don't follow. Why don't you ask what it is you want to ask, and we can discuss that.
I'm trying to determine why you think numbers are important. As Robinson has said,
"Gaza is Israel's Warsaw _ a vast concentration camp that confined and blockaded Palestinians, subjecting them to the slow death of malnutrition, disease and despair, nearly two years before their subjection to the quick death of Israeli bombs," Robinson wrote. "We are witness to a slow-motion process of genocide. ..."
Is he wrong?
Again: you really don't seem to have understood my first post in the thread. You really don't. I realize that you're a little infuriated with me, but read the post. It's not actually about a mathematical difference. Good luck.
Since your post does not address my post, its irrelevant. Feel free to actually answer the question at any point.
You're comparing the roundup and extermination of millions of people to the exclusion of roughly the same number.
Not the same. Sorry.
This has nothing to do with the OP.
:rolleyes: I did. I honestly don't see what's so hard about my answer. I wish you well, and good luck.
I fear for your reading comprehention skills
Last try
1. Professor Robinson forwarded an email juxtaposing images of Gaza and the Holocaust
2. He compared the parallels between Israeli actions in Gaza to Nazi actions against Jews
3. He is being investigated for anti-semitism [he's a jew]
Is he wrong to do so, in his global affairs class?
fedr808
05-15-09, 08:47 AM
Is it an invalid comparison?
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/
There's a professor of international affairs in the US who is being held accountable for using the above pictures as a discussion tool.
Is he right or wrong?
hes not just wrong he is WAY wrong.
And im not just saying that ebcause im offended
1,000 some odd gazans were killed
6 million Jews were killes, on the worst year nearly 10,000 jews were exterminated a day.
The Gazans arent forced into cruel labor camps
They arent fed so little that they are quite literally skin and bones
They arent forced on death marches
They arent stuffed into cattlecars with 80 other people.
That professor is WAY off.
original
05-15-09, 08:48 AM
The professor should be able to show images of war if the class is related to studies of such conflicts. The images are real. That is what happens. It is dishonest to hide the truth.
On the surface the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm) has the oil-slick sheen of human rights protection. However by limiting their focus to actions against Israel and Jews, they are essentially granting special privileges to this group. Why don't the Palestinians have the same kind of protection? What about the horrible violence of conflicts in African countries? Let's not forget about American bigotry and hatred of the Middle East in general. Should we start monitoring Americans who say they wouldn't mind nuking the entire Middle East until there was nothing but glass?
hes not just wrong he is WAY wrong.
I see you have the same problem as GeoffP
Pay attention:
1. Professor Robinson forwarded an email juxtaposing images of Gaza and the Holocaust
2. He compared the parallels between Israeli actions in Gaza to Nazi actions against Jews
3. He is being investigated for anti-semitism [he's a jew]
Is he wrong to do so, in his global affairs class?
fedr808
05-15-09, 08:49 AM
Some additional info that pertains to criminalisation of criticism of Israel
In 2004, George W Bush pushed through the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act
Rahm Emmanuel is currently pushing for the Hate Crimes Prevention Act
Do Americans have an opinion on this? Does anyone else?
Its already pretty clear that Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/) and Maariv (http://www.promisedlandblog.com/) have a social conscience that is absent in mainstream western media. Now that the gags are being put into place and academics and dissenters being marginalised, we'll see even less of an inquiry than the pitiful representation we now see. It will not matter what people think, because it will be decided what is appropriate for them to not think.
So much for free speech.
Source:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article159977.html
Yah that guy proposing that is a jack ass. Freedom of speech first amendmant, freedom of religion first amendmant,
end of story. There is no right for that bill to be passed and the enate wont pass it and even if they do the justices wont allow it citing it as uncoinstitutional.
The professor should be able to show images of war if the class is related to studies of such conflicts. The images are real. That is what happens. It is dishonest to hide the truth.
On the surface the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm) has the oil-slick sheen of human rights protection. However by limiting their focus to actions against Israel and Jews, they are essentially granting special privileges to this group. Why don't the Palestinians have the same kind of protection? What about the horrible violence of conflicts in African countries? Let's not forget about American bigotry and hatred of the Middle East in general. Should we start monitoring Americans who say they wouldn't mind nuking the entire Middle East until there was nothing but glass?
Exactly. Phew, I was beginning to think no one at sciforums can read.
Would you say there was a parallel in comparing the Jim Crow laws to South African apartheid?
It's amazing that someone who doesn't even understand the questions she's posing then accuses other people of ignorance.
I can see why she was taken down as a mod.
fedr808
05-15-09, 08:51 AM
I see you have the same problem as GeoffP
Pay attention:
1. Professor Robinson forwarded an email juxtaposing images of Gaza and the Holocaust
2. He compared the parallels between Israeli actions in Gaza to Nazi actions against Jews
3. He is being investigated for anti-semitism [he's a jew]
Is he wrong to do so, in his global affairs class?
In public it would be acceptable.
In an actual class. It is definitely questionable wether it should be allowed.
Freedom of speech is great and all but forcing an opinion on someone else isn't
So if he was comparing Jim Crow laws to South Africa or native American displacement to Australia, he would be imposing his opinions on his students?
fedr808
05-15-09, 08:54 AM
So if he was comparing Jim Crow laws to South Africa or native American displacement to Australia, he would be imposing his opinions on his students?
I honestly cannot form a truthful opinion because I know very little of JC laws let alone the later.
But if what he is teaching is NOT common fact as in what is taught normally to a class in any other school and there is reason to believe it is heavily biased by the teacher, than the teacher is not doing his/her job.
Its a class on global affairs. What is normally taught in global affairs? All professors are biased.
original
05-15-09, 09:03 AM
Exactly. Phew, I was beginning to think no one at sciforums can read.
Would you say there was a parallel in comparing the Jim Crow laws to South African apartheid?
There is a great correlation between the Jim Crow laws (segregation) and the South African apartheid. The idea of "separate but equal" is what segregation was all about. Where black and white people had an equal opportunity, just separate, like the Taoist symbol, and there was love everywhere and life was grand. Obviously we know this was not the case. White people had preferential treatment while black people were given no respect. White people would be given free passes when committing crimes against black people, while black people would be put to death without a trial at times. Apartheid is quite similar to this. You can change the colors around but the image remains.
original
05-15-09, 09:23 AM
You're comparing the roundup and extermination of millions of people to the exclusion of roughly the same number.
Not the same. Sorry.
Exclusion is not extermination, but S.A.M. brought up the idea that the cutting off supplies and services is subjecting the Palestinians to a slow death. While it is not as quick and forward as extermination, they are still dying as a result of these policies.
In public it would be acceptable.
In an actual class. It is definitely questionable wether it should be allowed.
Freedom of speech is great and all but forcing an opinion on someone else isn't
It is a valid comparison and in a global studies class the idea should be entertained. If a student has a problem with it then they should speak up. It is certainly not "anti-semetic".
You might argue it was along the same lines of the seige of Warsaw, but without as extreme a blockade, with a sympathetic population on all other sides (or nominally so), and the massacre at the end. Also, the Jews of Warsaw weren't at war with the Germans before the seige, and didn't have religious/political leaders egging them on to the extermination of the Germans based on religious differences beforehand, or during. Other than those items, I'm sure there are similarities.
Did Robinson make these arguments?
otheadp
05-15-09, 09:34 AM
So Jenin was a "massacre", and the conflict in Gaza was "as bad as the Holocaust"... what's next? :rolleyes:
You know, in the past month alone there have been over 5000 dead Tamils in the Sri Lanka / LTTE conflict....
SAM you are such a hysterical hypocrite... time to up the dosage.
Did Robinson make these arguments?
I don't know. I'm just clarifying his argument for him.
So you think the 6 million Holocaust victims should be brushed aside because 60 million other people also died in WWII?
fedr808
05-15-09, 09:39 AM
So you think the 6 million Holocaust victims should be brushed aside because 60 million other people also died in WWII?
Did those people die in concentration camps?
12-15 million is the death toll of the camps.
Mrs.Lucysnow
05-15-09, 09:40 AM
So Jenin was a "massacre", and the conflict in Gaza was "as bad as the Holocaust"... what's next? :rolleyes:
You know, in the past month alone there have been over 5000 dead Tamils in the Sri Lanka / LTTE conflict....
SAM you are such a hysterical hypocrite... time to up the dosage.
Yeah but you see the Sri Lankan government went on the Tamil offensive some time after the Israeli's were on theirs. The world being so distracted didn't even give a fraction of the coverage given to the Israeli offensive. If the world wants to complain about the Tamils they only have to site the precendent of the Israeli's. What's good for the goose...
otheadp
05-15-09, 10:37 AM
Yeah but you see the Sri Lankan government went on the Tamil offensive some time after the Israeli's were on theirs. The world being so distracted didn't even give a fraction of the coverage given to the Israeli offensive. If the world wants to complain about the Tamils they only have to site the precendent of the Israeli's. What's good for the goose...
"Precedent of the Israelis"... as if there has never been war before the Gaza offensive :rolleyes:
The civil war in Sri Lanka has been going on since at least the early 80s. There were far worse massacres perpetrated before this latest round of "only" 5000 dead. CNN couldn't be bothered to mention any of it in the last 30 years? Oh right, the Gaza offensive of 2009... how could I forget.
It really is a shame the world doesn't give a fraction of a fraction of the coverage it is obsessively throws at Israel to conflicts much deadlier and more heart breaking than "the Jenin massacre".
The "Palestinians" must be glowing of happiness from all the attention they've been getting (and ACTUAL victims must be glowing from the fire that is burning them alive from all the LACK of attention.)
Back to the OP: SAM's and other anti-Semites' comparison of the Holocaust to 1000 war-dead is grotesque and obscene. And yes, there ARE Jewish anti-Semites, such as Norman Finkelstein who SAM so gleefully quotes in the OP, just like there are black Uncle Toms and other self-hating people from every race and culture.
otheadp:
So according to you, William I. Robinson, professor of sociology at the UC, Santa Barbara is being an anti-semite when he proposes a discussion on the parallels between Israeli actions in Gaza and Nazi actions in Germany during a class on global affairs?
I fear for your reading comprehention skills
... said the pot to the kettle.
original
05-15-09, 12:14 PM
You can define parallels in history without saying that one event is more important than the other. It is ugly to say that one event is more important than the other because of the number of people who died. I argue that comparisons can be made between the Holocaust and Apartheid. It is about the conditions that allow such atrocities to come about, and not about who killed the most, like some kind of demented high score.
. I argue that comparisons can be made between the Holocaust and Apartheid. It is about the conditions in which such atrocities come about.
I agree. Much of human history is repetitive patterns of abuse based on similar themes. It is spurious to pretend that one act is somehow more noteworthy or more deserving of sympathy than the other, if the motivations are the same
otheadp
05-15-09, 12:20 PM
I agree. Much of human history is repetitive patterns of abuse based on similar themes. It is spurious to pretend that one act is somehow more noteworthy or more deserving of sympathy than the other, if the motivations are the same
These words in and of themselves, on a purely intellectual level, are not as bad as what they mean in the context of our discussion and in what you're applying it to. You're a terrible person SAM. If there is a hell, there's a special seat there reserved just for you.
are not as bad as what they mean in the context of our discussion
You mean its okay when you're discussing Jim Crow, South Africa, Tasmania, Australia, the Armenians, Khmer Rouge and the Nazis. But when it comes to this, you feel violently conflicted (http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/) and want to see it as anything but what it is.
That actually speaks well of you. It means if it were to happen before your eyes, you would not stand for it. Its why it does not bother me when people like you, spider and fedr stick up for Israeli atrocities. I think if faced with the truth, you'd make the right choices.
Oppression it might be, but not genocide. It doesn't mean there should necessarily be a conflict.
Depends on whom you ask
http://www.soas.ac.uk/events/event50247.html
http://us.macmillan.com/israeliapartheid
wise acre
05-16-09, 05:01 PM
Is it an invalid comparison?
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/
There's a professor of international affairs in the US who is being held accountable for using the above pictures as a discussion tool.
Is he right or wrong?
I think a comparison with an ongoing Kristallnacht is a better comparison.
And the whole walling in Gaza and then bombing attacking it compares with the Warsaw Ghetto.
I don't see Holocaust levels yet at all.
But 'never again' and 'notice the warning signs' both should apply here, also.
If someone is even capable of raising the comparison at all, it should make israelis/jewish ashamed of themselves. You'd imagine that a people who suffered as much as they did would be the first to make sure nothing such would happen again, let alone be the ones causing it to happen.
wise acre
05-16-09, 08:59 PM
Imagine that there was a country in the Middle East where walls were built around a jewish community, a community that was then attacked by a vastly superior military force. And that these attacks were said to be a response to violence by these jews, despite that each year it is more jews who are killed in the conflict and in this case the response kills many, many more jews than the violence that supposedly led to this attack on a walled in community. That in this country Jews were discriminated against based on race and religion. That jews were put under curfews and treated differently at checkpoints. And that these jews had earlier been removed from their lands.
Imagine what the Jewish community would be saying about that.
DiamondHearts
05-17-09, 12:59 AM
You just described Nazi Germany. Those points have nothing to do with Palestine. Israel massacred 1,000 Lebanese civilians for the capture of 3 Israeli soldiers who had trespassed on Lebanese territory. Neglecting even the fact that thousands of Palestinians and Lebanese rot in Israeli prisons. Furthermore, the invasion and destruction of Gaza was completely unwarranted. If any country can be compared to Nazi Germany, it is Israel.
pjdude1219
05-17-09, 01:10 AM
Well from a sociological stand point their are parallels between nazi germany and Israel in the mentality which the use to justify their acts against their victims.
Arsalan
05-17-09, 08:57 AM
Interesting (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1)... Hmm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto)...
:shrug:
Anyone have a list of the things the Germans allowed into the Warsaw ghetto?
And if the Jews managed to smuggle them in through the sewers?
COGAT has refused the PA representative's request for an updated list of the items permitted into Gaza in writing, and passes the information only via the telephone.
Gaza merchants are forbidden to import canned goods, plastic sheeting, toys and books, although the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and other aid organizations are permitted to bring them into the strip.
The few items merchants are allowed to trade in are divided into three categories: food, medicine and detergent. Everything else is forbidden - including building materials (which are necessary to rehabilitate Gaza's ruins and rebuild its infrastructure), electric appliances such as refrigerators and washing machines, spare machine and car parts, fabrics, threads, needles, light bulbs, candles, matches, books, musical instruments, crayons, clothing, shoes, mattresses, sheets, blankets, cutlery, crockery, cups, glasses and animals. Many of the banned products are imported through the tunnels and can be found in Gaza's markets.
Pasta, which had been forbidden in the past, is now allowed, after U.S. Senator John Kerry expressed his astonishment at the ban during a visit to Gaza in February. But tea, coffee, sausages, semolina, milk products in large packages and most baking products are forbidden. So are industrial commodities for manufacturing food products, chocolate, sesame seeds and nuts. Israel does allow importing fruit, milk products in small packages and frozen food products as well as limited amounts of industrial fuel.
The Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs reported that during the first week of May, 2.2 million liters of industrial fuel - some 70 percent of the weekly supply required to operate the power station - was allowed into Gaza. UNRWA receives petrol and diesel supplies separately. A daily 270-300 tons of cooking gas - 54 percent of the required amount - is allowed.
Petrol and diesel for private cars and public transportation have not been imported from Israel since November 2, 2008, except for a small amount for UNRWA. The union of Gaza's gas station owners estimates that some 100,000 liters of diesel and 70,000 liters of petrol are brought through the tunnels daily.
Egypt, which in the past two months has been restricting the trade movement through the tunnels, does not limit the supply of gas and fuel. But since Egyptian fuel is heavier than Israeli fuel, it damages the newer cars in Gaza and causes malfunctions.
In the past, Israel allowed wood for home furnishings to be brought into Gaza for some time, but not wood for windows and doors. Now Israel has resumed the ban on wood for furniture.
The ban on toilet paper, diapers and sanitary napkins was lifted three months ago. A little more than a month ago, following a long ban, Israel permitted the import of detergents and soaps into Gaza. Even shampoo was allowed. But one merchant discovered that the bottles of shampoo he had ordered were sent back because they included conditioner, which was not on the list.
Five weeks ago Israel allowed margarine, salt and artificial sweetener to be brought into Gaza. Legumes have been allowed for the past two months and yeast for the past two weeks. Contrary to rumors, Israel has not banned sugar.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1086045.html
Fraggle Rocker
05-17-09, 11:07 PM
Is it an invalid comparison?Yes, it's invalid to compare Israel's treatment of the Palestinians to the Holocaust. The Nazis attempted to kill virtually all of the Jews they could get under their control, limited only by logistics and their own corruption. (Each Nazi official had his own favorite Jewish art dealer, musician, etc., whom he protected.) I can't find the exact statistics but I think it's reasonably accurate to say that they killed roughly half of the world's Jewish population.
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, their culture and their homeland is deplorable and uncivilized, but it is not at the level of the Holocaust. They could easily kill all of the Palestinians under their control, yet they have in fact killed--what?--a couple of a percent.
This is disgusting but it's not a Holocaust, a word which implies extinction or at least attempted extinction. It's no worse than a really awful war. Our Civil War killed three percent of our population.
If you want to find another historical event that comes closer to qualifying as a Holocaust, how about my people's treatment of the Native Americans? Or better yet, go back a couple of centuries earlier to the Christian armies' deliberate obliteration of the Inca and Aztec civilizations, with population reduction estimated as high as 90%. That's a better job than Hitler did on the world's Jews.
There's a professor of international affairs in the US who is being held accountable for using the above pictures as a discussion tool.The pictures are a good comparison, but I'd have to see more of his lecture notes to decide whether in aggregate his lessons are too hyperbolic for a university-age student body to evaluate.
It is definitely fair (and obligatory if you ask me) to compare Israel's actions to those of the Nazis at the start of their pogrom. They were treating Jews in an uncivilized fashion but they stopped short of trying to exterminate them.
But to compare Israel's actions to the Holocaust--which came several years later--is hyperbolic and invalid. It wasn't until the start of WWII that the Germans felt they could finally pursue the Final Solution in "the fog of war." This is why the Holocaust victims are often lumped in with the death toll of WWII: the Holocaust was a byproduct of the war. Captured Nazi government documents made it clear that they believed that even a victorious Third Reich could not get away with genocide in peacetime, and so the job had to be completed before the war was over.
Is he right or wrong?Many Americans, especially those of us with some Jewish "blood" who can afford to speak out, give Jewish spokesmen a lot of leeway--perhaps a little too much--when they criticize Israel, because it is SOOOO politically incorrect to do that today. This professor is wrong, but somebody has to draw attention to Israel's abuses and exaggeration is a good way to attract attention. As Jon Stewart, one of America's most respected TV personalities (and "full-blooded" Jewish) said into the camera, "Why do you never hear criticism of Israel in America except on my show?"
To sum up, he can be forgiven for being hyperbolic, but I'll let the academic authorities decide whether he can be forgiven in their little ecclesiastical environment.
I certainly would not allow this hyperbolic comparison on SciForums without a whole lot of qualifying discussion, such as this one. ;)
I certainly would not allow this hyperbolic comparison on SciForums without a whole lot of qualifying discussion, such as this one.
Apparently there are rules at sciforums due to which this comparison is "inappropriate language" unlike say, the comparison of Iran to Nazi Germany.
An interesting interview with Norman Finkelstein, who was denied tenure due to his criticism of Israel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqT6uKxz_eQ
It would appear that Muhammad instigated the first Jewish genocide:
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quraiza.html
otheadp
05-20-09, 09:39 AM
This whole discussion is obscene. Responding to these cynical and anti-Semetic comparisons would be dignifying it and elevating it to the level of legitimate discussion, and that point of view (it isn't really a point of view though, is it -- only a cynical attempt to further Jewish suffering and spit on the survivors and the victims' memory) to a legitimate one, and encouraging it further.
Q and others, don't bother with it. You'll only be contributing to the above, plus you won't change anybody's mind who even dares to say something like that.
Arsalan
05-20-09, 10:18 AM
It would appear that Muhammad instigated the first Jewish genocide:
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quraiza.html
Ah yes, ofcourse, leave out the fact that when the Muslims at Medina were defending the city against the Meccan army, that tribe tried to take advantage and attack the Muslims from the back. Leave out the fact they provided the Meccans with details of the tactics. Leave out the fact they constantly broke treaties and betrayed the Muslims to the Meccans. And also leave out the fact that they chose to be judged by a friend of theirs who judged them according to their own book, the Torah, regarding betrayal and high treason.
Ah yes, ofcourse, leave out the fact that when the Muslims at Medina were defending the city against the Meccan army, that tribe tried to take advantage and attack the Muslims from the back.
Would that be before or after Muhammad conquered Mecca?
Arsalan
05-20-09, 11:00 AM
Would that be before or after Muhammad conquered Mecca?
This event took place before Mecca allowed the Muslims back in. A lot of people bring this up, without acknowledging that the Meccans were continously attacking the Muslims, attacking their caravans and besieging them. as it turned out, that tribe was helping the Meccans and betrayed the Muslims on a number of occasions.
pjdude1219
05-20-09, 02:21 PM
If someone is even capable of raising the comparison at all, it should make israelis/jewish ashamed of themselves. You'd imagine that a people who suffered as much as they did would be the first to make sure nothing such would happen again, let alone be the ones causing it to happen.
Fear is one of many things that clouds the mind from seeing truth.
pjdude1219
05-20-09, 02:22 PM
This whole discussion is obscene. Responding to these cynical and anti-Semetic comparisons would be dignifying it and elevating it to the level of legitimate discussion, and that point of view (it isn't really a point of view though, is it -- only a cynical attempt to further Jewish suffering and spit on the survivors and the victims' memory) to a legitimate one, and encouraging it further.
Q and others, don't bother with it. You'll only be contributing to the above, plus you won't change anybody's mind who even dares to say something like that.
actually the Israelis behavior is comparable to the Nazis treatment of some peoples. Denying that and claiming only antisemites are doing it is in fact bigotry.
spidergoat
05-20-09, 02:27 PM
This whole discussion is obscene. Responding to these cynical and anti-Semetic comparisons would be dignifying it and elevating it to the level of legitimate discussion, and that point of view (it isn't really a point of view though, is it -- only a cynical attempt to further Jewish suffering and spit on the survivors and the victims' memory) to a legitimate one, and encouraging it further.
Q and others, don't bother with it. You'll only be contributing to the above, plus you won't change anybody's mind who even dares to say something like that.
Quite right. It trivializes the actions of the Nazis and the efforts and deaths of everyone, including Germans, that fought to end their reign.
It would appear that Muhammad instigated the first Jewish genocide:
http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quraiza.html
Since when do you believe in myth and superstition? There is no evidence that this tribe existed. No Jewish record of it exists.
Back to Israeli actions and the Gaza Holocaust:
SYDNEY, Australia (JTA) -- A Jewish organization in Melbourne canceled a performance by an award-winning Jewish actress because of her participation in a controversial play about Israel.
Miriam Margolyes, a British-born stage and screen star, offered to entertain elderly residents Tuesday at JewishCare, a major facility in Melbourne. But she was told Monday that her appearance may offend some of the residents who are Holocaust survivors because she is scheduled to be the headline act next week in "Seven Jewish Children," a play that has been branded by some critics as anti-Semitic.
“I think they're quite wrong, I would never get involved with anything which was either anti-Semitic or critical of Holocaust survivors,” Margolyes, who splits her time between Australia and Britain, said in a statement issued by Australians for Palestine. “I feel they're making a terrible mistake and I am very sad because I was truly looking forward to appearing there. I support JewishCare in the U.K. both in appearances and with donations. And I will continue to do so.”
The 10-minute play, subtitled “A Play For Gaza,” is scheduled to be staged May 18 during a fund-raiser for Australians for Palestine at the State Library of Victoria. It traces the history of Israel, beginning with the Holocaust and ending with Israel’s recent offensive in Gaza.
http://jta.org/news/article/2009/05/12/1005083/jewish-actress-loses-gig-over-play
fedr808
05-20-09, 02:48 PM
There is no comparison between Israel and the Holocaust.
I thought this was blatently obvious to most of the scientific community but apparently some other arrogant minds think otherwise.
First off. In the Gaza conflict the death toll was what 3,000 people?
In the holocaust, 10,000 Jewish people were killed per day.
Secondly, the Jews were forced into labor camps where they were forced to work. Dont see any of that in Gaza.
Third, The Gazans aren't in a concentration camp.
fourth. The Jews were starved so much that if you have ever seen ANY photos of them after the camps you would have nightmares. Don't see that in Gaza.
Fifth, since when have the Gazans been gassed with Zyklon B?
You cant even whine about being treated unfairly, in comparison to the Holocaust.
At the worst, this is comparable to maybe a ghetto at the very most.
The play, Seven Jewish Children [in two parts]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OBA30Ax51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV3iASkzQkg
Script:
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:3ObgcyBTPJwJ:graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/SevenJewishChildren.pdf+script+seven+jewish+childr en&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
fedr808
05-20-09, 03:01 PM
The play, Seven Jewish Children [in two parts]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OBA30Ax51s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV3iASkzQkg
Script:
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:3ObgcyBTPJwJ:graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/world/SevenJewishChildren.pdf+script+seven+jewish+childr en&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
SAM, im using my school network i dont have the bandwidth to get youtube, it would take me hours to load one of those vids, so just sum it up.
Its a ten minute play. You can read the script.
But its better if you watch it.
pjdude1219
05-20-09, 05:42 PM
There is no comparison between Israel and the Holocaust.
I thought this was blatently obvious to most of the scientific community but apparently some other arrogant minds think otherwise.
First off. In the Gaza conflict the death toll was what 3,000 people?
In the holocaust, 10,000 Jewish people were killed per day.
Secondly, the Jews were forced into labor camps where they were forced to work. Dont see any of that in Gaza.
Third, The Gazans aren't in a concentration camp.
fourth. The Jews were starved so much that if you have ever seen ANY photos of them after the camps you would have nightmares. Don't see that in Gaza.
Fifth, since when have the Gazans been gassed with Zyklon B?
You cant even whine about being treated unfairly, in comparison to the Holocaust.
At the worst, this is comparable to maybe a ghetto at the very most.
the Holocaust was about more than the jews. The others killed werenot an after thought. But once again we see a jew showing off a mentality the lends its self to being describe as one jewish death is worse than everyone else dying.
This event took place before Mecca allowed the Muslims back in. A lot of people bring this up, without acknowledging that the Meccans were continously attacking the Muslims, attacking their caravans and besieging them. as it turned out, that tribe was helping the Meccans and betrayed the Muslims on a number of occasions.
Yeah, you got it the wrong way round, pal. It was Muhammad who was raiding the caravans. He promised salvation for those who died fighting for Islam, and the lure of fortune for those who succeeded in conquest.
Arsalan
05-21-09, 09:19 PM
Yeah, you got it the wrong way round, pal. It was Muhammad who was raiding the caravans. He promised salvation for those who died fighting for Islam, and the lure of fortune for those who succeeded in conquest.
Atually, I've got it the right way round. What your anti-Islamist sources dont tell you is that the Meccans besieged the caravans that were providing the Muslims in Medina. In retaliation, and to ensure that the people in Medina had enough food and water and other essentials, the Meccans lost a couple of their caravans.
anti-Islamist sources
Funny how history itself is anti-Islamic. Should we now refer to anything that has to do with Islamic sources anti-this and anti-that? You lose all credibility by making those stupid comments.
In retaliation, and to ensure that the people in Medina had enough food and water and other essentials, the Meccans lost a couple of their caravans.
That's a lie. But, let's see your rationale, anyways.
Oh yes, the Islamic way, retaliate. NEVER take the high road.
And, Islam will see to it that whatever you do is fully justified.
the Holocaust was about more than the jews. The others killed werenot an after thought. But once again we see a jew showing off a mentality the lends its self to being describe as one jewish death is worse than everyone else dying.
The Holocaust was obviously about more than just the Jews. But the fact that there were more Jews killed than all other groups combined suggests that they were the Nazi's primary target.
DiamondHearts
05-23-09, 11:09 AM
Q, provide evidence from the Islamic sources. If you don't, then I assume you aren't informed on this subject. I expect citations with volume, topics, page numbers, and the name of the author. If you don't respond with sources, as you are apt to do, then the debate is already over.
pjdude1219
05-23-09, 01:47 PM
The Holocaust was obviously about more than just the Jews. But the fact that there were more Jews killed than all other groups combined suggests that they were the Nazi's primary target.
actually there wasn't. from what I have read nonjewish victims was equal or greater than jewish.
actually there wasn't. from what I have read nonjewish victims was equal or greater than jewish.
From what I've read, there were 10-11 million victims; 6 million of whom were Jewish.
:yawn:
i certainly am learning..
i was gonna quote something hitler said in his book "Mein Kampf", one i also got through email..which is roughly;
"i was able to eradicate all jews...but i left some of them so the world knows why i killed them"
well, aside from how plausible the quote sounds..it turned out his book in question was written before he even got to power...
but didn't find solid proof he didn't say that ever..
man authentication sucks..
pjdude1219
05-24-09, 03:05 AM
From what I've read, there were 10-11 million victims; 6 million of whom were Jewish.
12-13 million.
12-13 million.
Just out of curiosity, where did you get that figure? Everything I've ever read put the death toll at 10-11 million.
The Esotericist
05-24-09, 01:52 PM
Is it an invalid comparison?
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/deutschland-uber-alles/
There's a professor of international affairs in the US who is being held accountable for using the above pictures as a discussion tool.
Is he right or wrong?
. . . no, I don't think it is an all together INVALID comparison, as long as he makes the distinction that the comparison only goes SO FAR. It only applies to discrimination, segregation, and inhumane treatment, that is all.
I think a lot of people here are making A LOT of assumptions. We are only discussing the PICTURES, yes? That is all. Who was talking about millions of deaths compared to the number of Palestinian deaths? Have any of you heard his presentation? I haven't. Thus, none of us can competently critique his teaching or his presentation, can we?
Here is something I think we can critique. I find it amusing that it was brought up that there is this law being considered that would make it a crime to criticize Israel.
The professor should be able to show images of war if the class is related to studies of such conflicts. The images are real. That is what happens. It is dishonest to hide the truth.
On the surface the Global Anti-Semitism Review Act (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/40258.htm) has the oil-slick sheen of human rights protection. However by limiting their focus to actions against Israel and Jews, they are essentially granting special privileges to this group. Why don't the Palestinians have the same kind of protection? What about the horrible violence of conflicts in African countries? Let's not forget about American bigotry and hatred of the Middle East in general. Should we start monitoring Americans who say they wouldn't mind nuking the entire Middle East until there was nothing but glass?
Guess who'll be thrown in jail for doing book tours? :bugeye: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYvJuWKq2jE)
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