View Full Version : Jihad
JustLovely
05-07-09, 03:35 AM
The are two interpretations of Jihad. There's the wrong interpretation, which suggests that a Human can MURDER another Human - this is the belief of "Kafir" such as Sunni and Shia Kafir. Then there's the Qadiani Muslim belief that Jihad can NEVER EVER HARM ANOTHER HUMAN.
So, we have two types of "belief"
** Qadiani Muslim Peaceful Jihad
and
** Shia/Sunni Kafir Violent Jihad
So, what I was wondering is IF a Human were to look at these two types of belief and were to pick of the two? Which system of belief is the closer to God which of the two would you choose and why???
Neither is closer to god.
I would choose neither of them.
Kafir is an insult. How does that fit into Qadiani?
The are two interpretations of Jihad. There's the wrong interpretation, which suggests that a Human can MURDER another Human - this is the belief of "Kafir" such as Sunni and Shia Kafir. Then there's the Qadiani Muslim belief that Jihad can NEVER EVER HARM ANOTHER HUMAN.
And what if they don't see their opponents as human ?
Whats your source of information on jihad, justlovely, Jew turned Ahmediya of unknown origin?
Also what is your opinion on takfir?
.
Kafir is an insult.
Kaffir is not an insult. Its a person who is not a Muslim. Muslimspeak for goy.
How does that fit into Qadiani?
It doesn't. While there is nothing wrong with the peaceful values propagated by the Ahmediyas, their belief in the reincarnation of Jesus [as declared by the noted Mirza] puts them at odds with mainstream Muslim clerics. They are a revivalist movement that believe in the establishment of the Caliphate and a unified Islam under one banner. All these good intentions sound very good in theory.
The Ahmediyas follow Mohammed, too, and the Qur'an.
Ahmadiyya beliefs do not conflict those of Islam in general, including belief in the prophethood of Muhammad, reverence for historical prophets, belief in a single creator God (strong monotheism). They accept the Qur'an as their holy text, face the Kaaba during prayer, accept the authority of Hadiths (reported sayings of and stories about Muhammad) and practice the Sunnah.
Central to the Ahmadiyya is the belief in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Promised Messiah and Mahdi. Ahmadis emphasise the implementation of the Kalima (the fundamental creed of Islam) as quintessentially linked with the Islamic principles of the rights of God (Arabic: Haqooqul-Lah) and the rights of mankind (Arabic: Haqooqul-Ibād).[14] Every prophet is believed to have emphasised one of the two parts of this Islamic creed depending on the need of the time, the first being I bear witness that there is no God but Allah, the One, without partner (pertaining to the duties towards God i.e. worship of God, observing His commandments and upholding His Unity), as emphasised by, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad etc. in accordance with the requirements of their time. The other being and I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and Messenger (pertaining to the duties towards mankind, i.e. compassion, care and concern for fellow beings, to maintain peace between fellow humans), emphasised by Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster etc. (as accepted by Ahmadi Muslims) in accordance with the requirements of their time.
Mankind is believed to have erred with regard to both of these essential aspects of religion in the present age. Ahmadis believe that Ghulam Ahmad was divinely commissioned to establish the unity of God, remind mankind of their duties towards God and His creation, to emphasise both aspects of religion which Ahmadis believe is the need of the present age. As such Ahmadis hold that Ghulam Ahmad was the representative and spiritual readvent of all previous prophets.[15] Giving precedence to faith over worldly pursuits is also a key principle in Ahmadiyya teachings with emphasised relevance to the present age of materialistic prevalence.[16]
You could consider them the Mormons of the Muslims.
He's a fake and a very obvious one.
Kaffir is not an insult. Its a person who is not a Muslim. Muslimspeak for goy.
It's more like 'infidel'. It's considered an offensive term.
Infidel = goy = kaffir
Its all the same word. Connotations are ascribed by people like Wilders and Dutchmen in South Africa
Its a commonly used inoffensive term in Urdu and Arabic. It can be used offensively as in "He's an atheist <sneer>"
Infidel = goy = kaffir
Its all the same word. Connotations are ascribed by people like Wilders and Dutchmen in South Africa
Its a commonly used inoffensive term in Urdu and Arabic. It can be used offensively as in "He's an atheist <sneer>"
The sneer probably comes with the word :rolleyes:
Kafir (literally the one who "covers", in the sense of hiding) - refers to those who do not believe in the one god - which includes atheists and polytheists but not Christians, Jews and Zorastrians who are known instead as the "People of the Book (Ahl-e-kitab}".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#Islamic
- The hiding from God part doesn't strike me as particularly positive.
Especially when Christians and Jews come off as 'people of the book'.
"Kafir" has also come to be regarded as offensive, thus Muslim scholars discourage its usage due to the Quran's command to use kind words. It is even a punishable offense to use this term against a Jew or a Christian, under Islamic law. Some Muslim extremists today however use the term in reference to all non-Muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#Islamic
- Need I say more. It's not as much about the original meaning as it is about what it has become to mean.
Take the word 'asshole' for example, or 'cunt'.
Yeah wikipedia is a good source of information
b. often kaffir Used especially in southern Africa as a disparaging term for a Black person
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Kaffir
You should look up the history of how that came about
Its like Islamofascist and jihad is bandied about these days, ignorant westerners who turn other cultures into a dirty word.
I refuse to let ignorant foreigners define my languages for me. Suck it up.
Yeah wikipedia is a good source of information
b. often kaffir Used especially in southern Africa as a disparaging term for a Black person
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Kaffir
You should look up the history of how that came about
Its like Islamofascist and jihad is bandied about these days, ignorant westerners who turn other cultures into a dirty word.
I refuse to let ignorant foreigners define my languages for me. Suck it up.
So this etymology is wrong ?
kaffir
1790, from Arabic qafir "unbeliever, infidel, impious wretch," with a lit. sense of "one who does not admit the blessings of God," from kafara "to cover up, conceal, deny." Technically, "non-Muslim," but in Ottoman times it came to be used almost exclusively for "Christian." Early Eng. missionaries used it as an equivalent of "heathen" to refer to Bantus in South Africa (1792), from which use it came generally to mean "South African black" regardless of ethnicity, and to be a term of abuse since at least 1934.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kaffir
Not at all. As you can see it was the crusaders, missionaries and the Dutch who made it "offensive"
It's commonly used in Arabic and Urdu just as goy is.
Not at all. As you can see it was the crusaders, missionaries and the Dutch who made it "offensive"
It's commonly used in Arabic and Urdu just as goy is.
I mean this part: "1790, from Arabic qafir "unbeliever, infidel, impious wretch," with a lit. sense of "one who does not admit the blessings of God," from kafara "to cover up, conceal, deny." "
I'm with Sam on this one.
(1) If it's used the same as 'goy' then it's really not necessarily offensive. Goy is sometimes used offensively, sometimes not. Most of the time it's more playful than anything else.
(2) Who the hell cares if it's offensive? When did people's mommies stop telling them the whole 'sticks and stones...' rhyme?
(2) Who the hell cares if it's offensive? When did people's mommies stop telling them the whole 'sticks and stones...' rhyme?
Uh.. the argument ?
I'm not saying that it's originally meant as offensive. Just that it is perceived, and often used, as offensive nowadays.
Plus, I just want to know if the etymology (see post above yours) is correct.
I mean this part: "1790, from Arabic qafir "unbeliever, infidel, impious wretch," with a lit. sense of "one who does not admit the blessings of God," from kafara "to cover up, conceal, deny." "
Yeah what's wrong with giving the English equivalents?
As you can see from the OP, it's even used by ignorant Muslims against Muslims
Yeah what's wrong with giving the English equivalents?
As you can see from the OP, it's even used by ignorant Muslims against Muslims
So they are correct English equivalents of the word 'kaffir' ?
Remember that translation doesn't always work that easily.
"Dictatorship" is the appropriate translation of 专政, but the connotation in English is not very flattering, whereas in Chinese it's perfectly fine. I've had students stand up and say "our dictatorship is the best!" and had to suggest that they may want to choose a different word. Similarly, when I'm pissed about something China-related I can't turn around and say "操你的专政！" or anything like that. It wouldn't make a lick of sense.
Insults are not easily translated.
Remember that translation doesn't always work that easily.
"Dictatorship" is the appropriate translation of 专政, but the connotation in English is not very flattering, whereas in Chinese it's perfectly fine. I've had students stand up and say "our dictatorship is the best!" and had to suggest that they may want to choose a different word. Similarly, when I'm pissed about something China-related I can't turn around and say "操你的专政！" or anything like that. It wouldn't make a lick of sense.
Insults are not easily translated.
"Impious wretch" seems pretty clear to me. And I asked someone who can confirm it as a proper translation, namely SAM.
Impious wretch would refer to a Muslim who is not pious like justlovely has done. And Tyler is correct, translations are not absolutely accurate. I'm sure it's not that different translating Dutch to English.
Anyway if you're a kafir, you're a kafir. If you consider it an insult to be called what you are i.e. Not a Muslim, feel free to change your status
Impious wretch would refer to a Muslim who is not pious like justlovely has done. And Tyler is correct, translations are not absolutely accurate. I'm sure it's not that different translating Dutch to English.
Anyway if you're a kafir, you're a kafir. If you consider it an insult to be called what you are i.e. Not a Muslim, feel free to change your status
The insult doesn't have to be the meaning of the word itself.
Often the insult is really the intent behind saying it, you Muslim.
But at least you convinced me that it's original use has nothing to do with insult.
JustLovely
05-07-09, 06:15 PM
I would choose neither of them.
swarm,
That's an odd name what does it mean swarm? Like a swarm of mosquitoes? :confused:
A central tenant in all evolved religions is that people don't murder other people. I think that this is a sign that a religion is "mature".
This is the reason why "Buddhism" per say, which came from India (well actually present day Napal) is peaceful - because Indian people have the oldest religion so it's is very mature.
Now, we can see the in New Revelations of Christianity the theme is Peace.
Now that makes sense.
Mohammad was kind of like George Washington without the Violence. So that was all Peace too. Trying to free Arab people and give them a democracy - only using Peace.
With all of these religions (which is why I put "quotes" around Buddhism) once they become popular then they are used to scare people and then people fall under the spell of their leaders and thus the time for a new messegae. This is a circle that happens in all things.
So, if we were to compare "mainstream" Sunni and Shia Kafir then we see a lot of Violence and think that this tell us that they have been at that spot in the cycle for a new message.
Which was delivered by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad in of course India!
Which should make sense given our long history, the longest, of religion.
So, it seems like someone who was comparing a VIOLENT type of "Islam" with a NON-VIOLENT type of "Islam" would pick the NON-VIOLENT. But, maybe not, I suppose if a person was violent minded like that Diamondhearts then maybe not.
Well, the reason I thought about this was because my friends and I were at the university handing out fliers and a Sunni Kafir started screaming in Arabic (so we didn't know what he was saying) and he actually pushed my firend and I really hard. My friend, she was shaking a little but we both stood their strong for Allah and eventually that boy left but he was filled with hate and I was worried maybe he might do something, but, I don't think so because Allah protects the rightous.
So this weekend we are going to make new fliers and hand them out in front of a Buddhist festival! (Birthday celebration I guess) WITH our other girl friend who is from India and is Buddhist. She said that we will see a big difference with the way Buddhists people will treat us.
Now, that makes sense because Buddhism is from India kind of near where our Messiah comes from. Maybe I will twitter about it?
spidergoat
05-07-09, 06:44 PM
The are two interpretations of Jihad. There's the wrong interpretation, which suggests that a Human can MURDER another Human - this is the belief of "Kafir" such as Sunni and Shia Kafir. Then there's the Qadiani Muslim belief that Jihad can NEVER EVER HARM ANOTHER HUMAN.
So, we have two types of "belief"
** Qadiani Muslim Peaceful Jihad
and
** Shia/Sunni Kafir Violent Jihad
So, what I was wondering is IF a Human were to look at these two types of belief and were to pick of the two? Which system of belief is the closer to God which of the two would you choose and why???
They are both inherently violent, as they both believe that they are correct, without any evidence to go on but faith in the reported words of an ancient philosopher/ warlord. It separates people into two groups, the converted and the yet to be converted. It's just a matter of degree that one is less violent than the other.
They are both inherently violent
You're also just babbling like justlovely
The word jihad occurs 41 times in the Quran and not once is it associated with war or violence.
DiamondHearts
05-07-09, 08:39 PM
Mohammad was kind of like George Washington without the Violence. So that was all Peace too. Trying to free Arab people and give them a democracy - only using Peace.
The Prophet did engage in war, and it was justified as Allah swt had ordered it. If an enemy invades your town, will you bow down to them and submit saying 'peace'? No, a real believer would take up the sword to defend the innocent.
So, if we were to compare "mainstream" Sunni and Shia Kafir then we see a lot of Violence and think that this tell us that they have been at that spot in the cycle for a new message.
By declaring Muslims as Non-Muslims, this is known as takfir. It is a tremendous sin in the eyes of God. Also, you are attempting to imply that all 1.7 billion Muslims of the world are violent and engaging in war. If this was the case, the situation would be radically different. Violence, chaos, and anarchy followed occupation and destruction such as witnessed in Iraq and Afghanistan. If America were invaded by a foreign power (such as the USSR in the cold war), similar events would take place in a society in which there is no law and order.
So, it seems like someone who was comparing a VIOLENT type of "Islam" with a NON-VIOLENT type of "Islam" would pick the NON-VIOLENT. But, maybe not, I suppose if a person was violent minded like that Diamondhearts then maybe not.
This is a personal attack. I have asked you to prove your referring to me as violent person, but you never have. Baseless accusations should not be accepted in this forum.
I am reporting you right now.
Well, the reason I thought about this was because my friends and I were at the university handing out fliers and a Sunni Kafir started screaming in Arabic (so we didn't know what he was saying) and he actually pushed my firend and I really hard. My friend, she was shaking a little but we both stood their strong for Allah and eventually that boy left but he was filled with hate and I was worried maybe he might do something, but, I don't think so because Allah protects the rightous.
So this weekend we are going to make new fliers and hand them out in front of a Buddhist festival! (Birthday celebration I guess) WITH our other girl friend who is from India and is Buddhist. She said that we will see a big difference with the way Buddhists people will treat us.
Naturally, as is the case with this. We have no way of proving whether an Arab pushed you for handing out fliers. You can contact your university if such an event occurred. However, I think it just a lie you made up to prove your point.
You aren't the first to try to convince us using this type of strategy that Muslims are evil, violent, subhuman, etc.
Your agenda is quite clear.
JustLovely
05-08-09, 02:16 AM
The Prophet did engage in war"The" prophet, listen to yourself.
Oh and no he did not engage in war all all. NEVER and any TRUE Muslims would know that a Prophet does not engage in war. That's just so so so so SO STUPID.
Do you think Allah, Allah that is everything, Allah that created all Humans needs a human to kill other humans? Are you a retard or what? Allah could just make all humans Allah wanted dead - dead. And that quick. To suggest that Mohammad murdered people is just the biggest stupidest thing I have ever heard.
Why don't you try using your brain and think for a minuet about how STUPID it sounds to say Allah told a human to kill other humans for Allah. Why? Is Allah so weak he needs Humans to kill each other? That's just the top of stupidity. If Allah wanted someone dead then they'd be dead. Allah doesn't want ANYONE dead.
No, a real believer would take up the sword
prove your referring to me as violent person, Why don't you TRY to read your own words. You are VIOLENT because you say MUSLIMS should KILL other HUMANS.
I would like everyone here to know that REAL Muslims don't murder anyone. NEVER.
EVER.
They are purely PEACEFUL.
DiamondHearts is a violent-minded kafir. Ban me I don't care. yeah, you know what REAL Muslims do when a loud mouth violent kafir start yelling - we stand there and peacefully stare them down. And you know what - they eventually shut up and leaves. Allah defends the innocent!
DiamondHearts
05-08-09, 02:51 AM
"The" prophet, listen to yourself.
Oh and no he did not engage in war all all. NEVER and any TRUE Muslims would know that a Prophet does not engage in war. That's just so so so so SO STUPID.
Do you think Allah, Allah that is everything, Allah that created all Humans needs a human to kill other humans? Are you a retard or what? Allah could just make all humans Allah wanted dead - dead. And that quick.
War is necessary in some instances. If a man came into your home with a gun pointed at you or your family with the intention to kill, would you let him go away? If you had a gun would you shoot him to prevent harm to your family, or would you let him shoot them?
The logical and human response is for the human being to hold on to what is precious to him, especially those he loves. Killing is necessary to prevent injustice. If another country invades your land, would you let them massacre your people, or would you resist them and fight their soldiers?
Holy Quran, Surah Al Baqarah
2: 190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
191. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
192. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
The Quran specifically deals with this topic. If you care to discuss your theories from on Islamic standpoint, you will have to prove them from citing Islamic sources.
To suggest that Mohammad murdered people is just the biggest stupidest thing I have ever heard.
I agree, hence why I never said that. Murder is a sin. Do you know the difference between fighting against those who fight against you and murder? Both are acts of killing, one is justified due to the ideal of the preservation of life, property, and freedom.
Why don't you try using your brain and think for a minuet about how STUPID it sounds to say Allah told a human to kill other humans for Allah. Why? Is Allah so weak he needs Humans to kill each other? That's just the top of stupidity. If Allah wanted someone dead then they'd be dead. Allah doesn't want ANYONE dead.
Allah swt gives human beings the right to kill other human beings in self-defense. This is the natural way which God has revealed to us, from the religion of Abraham. Most people do not have a problem comprehending this concept. For those who are faced with occupation, subjugation, genocide, and oppression, teaching them not to defend themselves is not only immoral, but a crime against humanity. Allah swt does not need us to do anything, He is above the need of anything. We defend ourselves for the safety of our families and precious ones, and Allah teaches that we must do this to establish justice in the land and rout evil. Therefore, Allah swt is pleased with all undertaking of man which is true, just, honorable, and steadfast in paving of a more equitable world for all human beings.
Why don't you TRY to read your own words. You are VIOLENT because you say MUSLIMS should KILL other HUMANS.
Not only Muslims. All people have the right to defend themselves. By your definition, everyone is violent except for you. If there is a murderer and rapist who is assaulting someone in front of you, would you not subdue him or kill him from harming the innocent one?
I would like everyone here to know that REAL Muslims don't murder anyone. NEVER.
EVER.
They are purely PEACEFUL.
I agree with you. Real Muslims don't murder anyone. I have never advocated that Muslims should murder anyone. If you think protecting a family member or innocent person from harm by killing the assailant is murder, then you do not yet grasp what real Islam is. Islam does not prohibit people from defending themselves. Your knowledge of Islam is minimal at best, and you have never once cited any verse from Quran or Sunnah to support your wild theories.
DiamondHearts is a violent-minded kafir. Ban me I don't care. yeah, you know what REAL Muslims do when a loud mouth violent kafir start yelling - we stand there and peacefully stare them down. And you know what - they eventually shut up and leaves. Allah defends the innocent!
I just read your post, and I really have to ask, are you completely there?
Real Muslims do not issue unwarranted personal attacks against others. Real Muslims listen and respect the views of other Muslims. Real Muslims don't appropriate all religious authority to themselves, and appoint themselves as 'God' to declare who is Muslim or not. To establish someone as a Non-Muslim, you must prove this from the Quran and Sunnah, the two sources of Islamic law. My views are completely in line with both the Quran and Sunnah, whilst your views, as I have proven, completely contradict the Quran and Sunnah.
I am being very patient and courteous to you, I expect the same in return. If you had spoken this way to any other of the members of this forum, they would likely have assassinated your character and issued personal attacks in return. I will not do that.
I hope you read the Quran and attain guidance from the Sunnah, and find out what Islam really is. You have been misguided by a fringe sect which knows nothing of the majesty of the great Islamic religion. May Allah swt guide us all to the path which He has chosen for us. Ameen.
Kafir vs heretic in a no holds bar koran off.
Who will prophet? Allah this and more!
"The" prophet, listen to yourself.
Oh and no he did not engage in war all all. NEVER and any TRUE Muslims would know that a Prophet does not engage in war. That's just so so so so SO STUPID.
There is historical evidence for this. Unless your beliefs eschew facts as unnecessary encumberances.
There is no doubt that Mohammed existed, occasional attempts to deny it notwithstanding. His neighbours in Byzantine Syria got to hear of him within two years of his death at the latest; a Greek text written during the Arab invasion of Syria between 632 and 634 mentions that "a false prophet has appeared among the Saracens" and dismisses him as an impostor on the ground that prophets do not come "with sword and chariot". It thus conveys the impression that he was actually leading the invasions.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-europe_islam/mohammed_3866.jsp
spidergoat
05-08-09, 09:15 AM
You're also just babbling like justlovely
The word jihad occurs 41 times in the Quran and not once is it associated with war or violence.
Doesn't matter. The struggle is to convert the world to Islam. That means getting people to accept on faith something that is not supported by any evidence. Such a campaign is dangerous to mankind and inherently violent. You cannot reason with faith.
The struggle is to convert the world to Islam. That means getting people to accept on faith something that is not supported by any evidence.
What struggle? Where? :crazy:
Its the Americans who are "liberating" everyone, its you who is bemoaning that Iran is no longer "westernised"
spidergoat
05-08-09, 10:09 AM
What does that have to do with it? Americans are Muslims too. We aren't trying to convert anyone. We have had idiot presidents that invade countries for no good reason, but note that he was motivated by the same sort of fanatical ideology- evangelical Christianity.
Yeah right, thats your excuse now, but its been going on for 60 years, or before that.
spidergoat
05-08-09, 11:09 AM
Now you are just changing the subject, we were at war with Communism for all that time. This wasn't because we hated the idea of people holding property communally, but because it was inevitably associated with an oppressive police state.
Like in Vietnam now. :rolleyes:
fedr808
05-08-09, 12:08 PM
Yeah right, thats your excuse now, but its been going on for 60 years, or before that.
No spider, what sam is saying is that everything went wrong in America when Israel was creating.
So effectively what he is saying is that Israel's existance actually is corrupting America and that the Jews and Israelis are to blame for all of the worlds problems blah, blah, blah.
Sam your not very original did you know that?
spidergoat
05-08-09, 12:31 PM
Like in Vietnam now. :rolleyes:
In its 2004 report on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State characterized Vietnam’s human rights record as “poor” and cited the continuation of “serious abuses.” According to the report, the government has imposed restrictions on freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of association. Citizens are denied the right to change their government. The government continues to hold political prisoners who have expressed views at odds with government policy. Prison conditions are generally “harsh, but not unduly so given the country's level of economic development,” according to the State Department assessment. Vietnam has no independent judiciary, and there is no right to a fair and speedy trial. Human rights organizations are not permitted to operate. Discrimination against women and ethnic minorities, child labor, and prostitution are serious problems.[citation needed] The government is attempting to address the child labor issue. The government officially provides for freedom of religion and recognizes Buddhist, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Hoa Hao, Cao Dai, and Muslim denominations. However, non-sanctioned groups, including branches of even the recognized denominations, face harassment. [wikipedia]
DiamondHearts
05-08-09, 05:34 PM
If anyone wishes to prove any point regarding Islamic theology, then that individual must provide evidence from the Quran and Sunnat. If he does not do so, then his point shall remain unsubstantiated and pure conjecture. I have clearly laid out the proper Islamic methodology regarding the subjects mentions. If anyone wishes to debate me, bring Islamic sources and only then can such an exchange even be referred to as a debate.
Furthermore, the topic of this thread is the Islamic ruling concerning 'Jihad' and particular views regarding it of Muslims.
If you have no interest in debate, please leave as you are only hindering the real purpose of this thread.
spidergoat
05-08-09, 05:42 PM
Right, because Muslims cannot think for themselves. Their behavior can never come from internal motivations, but only from a book.
My point is that such texts have an effect on the human psyche quite apart from the literal meanings of the words. When we separate the human race into believers (destined for a paradise so great we can hardly imagine) and unbelievers (destined to be tortured for eternity by God's own minions) we create a violent tension that can't be mediated by reason.
DiamondHearts
05-08-09, 06:41 PM
What an individual Muslim says is not legally binding on any other individual Muslim, unless it is proven from the sources of Islamic law (Quran and Sunnah). A Muslim can say whatever he wishes, yet if he attempts to say "Islam is so and so," then it is incumbent on him to prove his assertion with evidence. Religion is a science, the understanding of implementing to rules of God as judged from the Quran (the world of God), the Sunnah (the word of the Prophet, peace be to him), the consensus of the past scholars (ijma), and the use of logical reasoning (qiyas). All of these most be taken into account when judging on a particular matter. This prevents the rise of heresy and the conflicts associated with disunity.
It is God who has divided human beings into two categories, those on whom is His favor (those who belief, commit righteous deeds, and struggle for truth and justice) and those on whom He is separate from (those who disbelieve, commit evil deeds, and struggle for falsehood and mischief). Regarding who is rewarded with Paradise, that is solely up to the Creator of All that Exists. regarding who is punished with Hellfire, that is the sole jurisdiction of the Most Just and Most Honorable. God does what He wishes.
If you are anxious about your future and afterlife, I suggest you find the truth for yourself and change your status to be compatible with God's Mercy.
May Allah swt guide us to the straight path and bless us in this life and the hereafter. Ameen.
spidergoat
05-08-09, 07:37 PM
There is no afterlife, so I'm not worried about it. There is no ultimate judge of human beings except time. Religion is the opposite of science.
Religion is the opposite of science.
I'd disagree. Both are selected for.
The are two interpretations of Jihad. There's the wrong interpretation, which suggests that a Human can MURDER another Human - this is the belief of "Kafir" such as Sunni and Shia Kafir. Then there's the Qadiani Muslim belief that Jihad can NEVER EVER HARM ANOTHER HUMAN.
So, we have two types of "belief"
** Qadiani Muslim Peaceful Jihad
and
** Shia/Sunni Kafir Violent Jihad
So, what I was wondering is IF a Human were to look at these two types of belief and were to pick of the two? Which system of belief is the closer to God which of the two would you choose and why???
It is the reverse. True Jihad is waging warfare and sowing terror to enforce subission to islam. This is supported by the quran teachings. Devout muslims wage war to bring about a global islamic state.
False Jihad is put forward by compromising muslims who want to have an easy life without troubles, who live in already conqured lands, who just want to enjoy life. These must put forward a twisted interpretation of jihad to justify their disobediance to the call of muhammed to wage true jihad:
Even in muhammed's day there where false muslims who did not want to fight and kill for islam:
Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Some muslims deny the true nature of jihad only when they are talking to unbelievers. But some actually believe in twisted verson.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
DiamondHearts
05-10-09, 05:24 AM
Adstar, you should stick to discussing Christianity as obviously your knowledge of Islamic theology is minimal at best. I am not familiar with the website from which you received all these quotes, nor do I really care. Also, the translation you are using is manipulative, the meanings for the Arabic words are simply fabricated. It is my duty as a Muslim to defend the truth of Islam from the corruption and falsehood. If you say something which is not consistent with Islam, I will explain to you the correct meaning of which you don't understand.
It is the reverse. True Jihad is waging warfare and sowing terror to enforce subission to islam.
Jihad (from Arabic JaHaDa) means struggle. There are two struggles, one the greater struggle/struggle for the soul (Jihad al-akbar/Jihad an Nafs) is the inner struggle within the human body to be obedience to God, and fight against the shaytaan (devil)'s influence. Lesser struggle/struggle with the sword (Jihad al-asghar/Jihad bis Saif) is the physical struggle for truth and justice in this world, against the armies of Shaytaan and oppression, against occupation of one's people, against exploiters. This does consist of establishing the rule of Islam in the lands where Muslims are a majority, especially if they are occupied by a foreign power. Islam does not accept colonialism, it resists in all aspects. Furthermore, not only war, but various struggles in a Muslims life are Jihad (studies, women giving childbirth, facing oppression, caring for fellow humans, etc.). Jihad cannot be limited to war, it applies in all aspects of Muslims' lives.
Using the words 'sowing terror' is just a cheap shot against the Islamic religion. Islam opposes injustice of all kinds.
This is supported by the quran teachings. Devout muslims wage war to bring about a global islamic state.
Jihad is supported, but not your erroneous interpretation of it. Muslims are asked to wage war to free their occupied brothers and sisters, to resist tyranny, resist exploitation, and establish justice in the land. Muslims are not required to wage war on Non-Muslim countries, this is just fear-mongering and propaganda by Islamophobes.
False Jihad is put forward by compromising muslims who want to have an easy life without troubles, who live in already conqured lands, who just want to enjoy life. These must put forward a twisted interpretation of jihad to justify their disobediance to the call of muhammed to wage true jihad:
You have no right to define what is true Jihad or false Jihad, neither does the poster 'JustLovely'. Only Muslims reserve the sole right to interprete their religion. Those who claim Jihad is a means to subjugate Non-Muslims (as Non-Muslims of this forum) or those who claim Jihad has nothing to do with war are both in error regarding the injunctions of the Quran.
Even in muhammed's day there where false muslims who did not want to fight and kill for islam:
Yes, therefore the Quran reveals verses regarding that. You should have read my posts, I have already discussed this matter in detail. Furthermore, if you use the word 'fight', 'kill' is rather redundant. It is obviously a propaganda technique to further win the audience by the poster in question.
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”
The context of this verse was revealed when the Idolaters of Makkah, who had expelled the Prophet from Makkah and consequently signed a peace accord with him, had suddenly broke it by raiding a bedouin tribe allies the the Muslims of Madinah. This was a violation of the treaty, thus the Quran specifically addressed this case as a lesson to believers if they are faced with such a circumstance.
Surah 9 -At-Taubah
1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-
2. Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him.
[The Makkans were allowed four months to prepare for the war, to emigrate, to chose to join the Muslims, or simply stay where they were]
3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.
4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
[Notice what was intentionally left out of the verse you provided, I have boldened the statement]
6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah. and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
7. How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
Qur’an 9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”
Notice here the context from which the verses were taken out, the same war as mentioned above, it is still the same chapter.
Surah 9 (continued)
36. The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the straight usage. So wrong not yourselves therein, and fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.
37. Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
[The Pagans broke the treaty and fought the Muslims in one of the Prohibited Months, the calender of Prophets Ibrahim and Ismail (peace be upon them)]
38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter.
39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things.
[Meaning they will be replaced by a people who will support their Prophet and who will fight when God has ordered them against those who kill innocents]
40. If ye help not (your leader), (it is no matter): for Allah did indeed help him, when the Unbelievers drove him out: he had no more than one companion; they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion, "Have no fear, for Allah is with us": then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights: for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.
Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”
Surah 9 (continued)
123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
[Notice how this verse is defensive in nature. If the enemy surrounds you, you must repel them with strength, again this is specifically referring to the Quraish]
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”
Surah 8 Al-Anfal
38. Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
[Punishment to come = Hell]
39. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
40. If they refuse, be sure that Allah is your Protector - the best to protect and the best to help.
[Fitnah means injustice, oppression, and mischief in Arabic. Therefore, this verse is properly understood in this context. If injustice exists and believers are persecuted for their religion, then war must be waged until peace is secured, either by them ceasing in injustice or their defeat]
Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah’s enemy.”
These verses specifically address the Quraish Pagans, and their broken covenant.
Surah 8 Al-Anfal
55. For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.
56. They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah..
57. If ye gain the mastery over them in war, disperse, with them, those who follow them, that they may remember.
58. If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous.
59. Let not the unbelievers think that they can get the better (of the godly): they will never frustrate (them).
60. Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike fear into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.
61. But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah. for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).
[Conveniently expunged from your quotation of this verse]
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.”
Surah 47 Muhammad
1. Those who reject Allah and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah,- their deeds will Allah render astray (from their mark).
2. But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition.
3. This because those who reject Allah follow vanities, while those who believe follow the Truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah set forth for men their lessons by similitudes.
4. Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah.s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
[Again referring to a war]
Some muslims deny the true nature of jihad only when they are talking to unbelievers. But some actually believe in twisted verson.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Well as indicated by my post, you do not know what true Jihad is. Furthermore, True Muslims judge religion by what the Quran has revealed.
There is nothing twisted about waging a just war, and Islam recognizes was as a reality. As long as there is evil in the world, there will be war. As long as oppressive superpowers attempt to forcibly occupy and exploit people and their lands, there will be resistance.
Quran: http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Surai.htm
All the world knows what true jihad is. All your twists have no effect. True muslims are growing in number all the time and their acts of true Jihad are there for all the world to see.
I really don't need to quote the quran much at all. The proof of it's true message are being shown in many parts of the world this very day. I feel sorry for you DiamondHearts holding on to such a twist of a religion that is in rebellion against the Messiah Jesus. What a waste of a life. Even your own altered scriptures reveal islam:
5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
What does it matter if your corrupt translators replace the word unbeliever with pagan?? This calls on you to attack them and only relent when they "establish regular prayers" So does that mean you are to relent if a community of hundu pagans start regular prayers to vishnu??
:rolleyes: Nooo it means when they repent and start to establish regular prayers to Allah. Any other interpretation says that allah sees prayers to pagan gods as good and a cause for the ending of persecution.
No matter how much effort they have put into twisting your supposed quran they have failed to cover up the original meaning. That is to fight unbelievers using all kinds of warfare (and terror is a strategy of war) until they convert and establish regular prayers to allah. The other alternative interpretation makes allah a supporter of prayers to pagan gods and that allah will be merciful to those who worship idols. Because the word pagan means a worshiper of false gods.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
DiamondHearts
05-10-09, 05:52 PM
As your response indicates, you have completely ignored my post and the fact that you intentionally selectively misquoted to disprove it. I have responded to you in a very systematic and straightforward manner, I expect the same from you. Enough is this duplicity.
All the world knows what true jihad is. All your twists have no effect. True muslims are growing in number all the time and their acts of true Jihad are there for all the world to see.
You neither understand global politics nor religion, you may want to study both subjects more carefully. Let's look where there are Muslim resistance groups, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir. What is the common denominator? They are occupied by foreign powers, they are subjected to oppression at the hands of these powers. "To teach a man not to defend himself is criminal." - Malcolm X
I really don't need to quote the quran much at all. The proof of it's true message are being shown in many parts of the world this very day.
Yet you feel the urge to misquote the Quran intentionally. You have been thoroughly revealed as dishonest in your quoting and fallous interpretation of the Quran. God teaches man that he should be honest in debate, no matter who he is debating. I have consistently been honest and straight-forward in my views. If you claim to follow God, then manipulation of verses from the Quran is a very low standard which you are holding. Furthermore, its easy to malign Islam as, unfortunately, it is the easy thing to do these days. There is a worldwide alliance of fundamentalist Christians, Zionists, Secularists, Atheists, Hindus, Idol-worshipers, Homosexuals, Pagans, and Heretics who wish to silence Islam and oppress Muslims. It takes men of courage to speak for truth and belief of God, and people would deny him his life and happiness for it.
I feel sorry for you DiamondHearts holding on to such a twist of a religion that is in rebellion against the Messiah Jesus. What a waste of a life.
God took a covenant with the human being in Heaven. He asked the human whether he would bear the truth and worship God, and God alone, in all circumstances. The human being said 'Yes, My Lord.' Then God asked, if the entire world agreed with you or disagreed with you, would you still follow my path" The Human being said 'Yes, My Lord.'
Therefore, it is of little relevance what you or anyone else thinks in this regard. I am 100% sure in my conviction to God, the one God, the Lord of Abraham. I have no need for pity in following truth, for the one who worships God, he will be oppressed in the land and his enemy will fight him and occupy his lands. So be it. God is enough support for me. If I was the only believer on this planet, in an ocean of disbelievers. I would still bear truth, regardless of the harm to my physical body. I have taken a covenant with God, that is more holy to me than anything else in existence. Come what may.
We worship the One God, the same God worshiped by our father Adam, the Lord of Noah, the Master of Abraham. What the Christians have stated, that Prophet Jesus is God is an outright lie and blasphemy against God. The Lord who created Adam from neither father or mother, what need of He to be a father to one of his Adam's offspring. Prophet Jesus was nothing but a man, a blessed and righteous man, the Messiah, but a man nonetheless. This point shall be personally taken to account by God alone on the Day of Judgment. (peace be upon all the prophets)
What does it matter if your corrupt translators replace the word unbeliever with pagan??
The Arabic word is 'Mushrikeen' (coming from the Arabic root Sh R K), Shirk is defined as the association of any partners in worship with God. In Islam, this is the biggest sin a man can make, and the only unforgivable sin.
The translator is neither corrupt nor misguided. He has correctly translated this word. As I discussed in detail in my previous post, this is relating to a specific circumstance of war against the Pagans of Quraish in Makkah who had broken a treaty with the Muslims during the Holy Months. The order of God stated, let them prepare four months for the inevitable. If they want to leave, if they want to fight, or if they want to join the people of Madinah and their allied tribes.
This calls on you to attack them and only relent when they "[B]establish regular prayers"
In the specific circumstance, yes. They had broken several coveenants with the believers and had even attempted assassinated the Prophet (peace be upon him). Therefore, this si the reward of those who spread injustice. You have again not mentioned the following verses claiming that if they establish peace, then the Muslims should establish peace also. You keep ignoring the evidence, even though it is infront of you. It is very intellectually dishonest.
So does that mean you are to relent if a community of hundu pagans start regular prayers to vishnu??
I don't even understand this question.
:rolleyes: Nooo it means when they repent and start to establish regular prayers to Allah.
Yes it does. Look above. I explained in the verses following this one. Unless they establish peace and have not broken their treaties.
Any other interpretation says that allah sees prayers to pagan gods as good and a cause for the ending of persecution.
This is your mind playing tricks on you. You have nothing to stand on and have been thoroughly rebuked in my previous post, therefore now you have resorted to confusion. As stated above, Islam does not allow persecution of other people. There is nothing in the Quran to support that.
No matter how much effort they have put into twisting your supposed quran they have failed to cover up the original meaning. That is to fight unbelievers using all kinds of warfare (and terror is a strategy of war) until they convert and establish regular prayers to allah.
Someone who purposefully misquotes the Quran to justify his views, even in the face of apparent evidence cannot be taken seriously. Your dishonest post has been completely torn apart, and now you resort back to your rhetoric. Leave the discussion of the Quran to who have a decent knowledge of it, not someone who copies and pasts text from a website without even checking to make sure they are correct to begin with.
The other alternative interpretation makes allah a supporter of prayers to pagan gods and that allah will be merciful to those who worship idols. Because the word pagan means a worshiper of false gods.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Since when have you become a scholar in interpreting the Quran? Perhaps you should consider writing your own commentary of the Quran. :rolleyes:
As your response indicates, you have completely ignored my post and the fact that you intentionally selectively misquoted to disprove it. I have responded to you in a very systematic and straightforward manner, I expect the same from you. Enough is this duplicity.
You neither understand global politics nor religion, you may want to study both subjects more carefully. Let's look where there are Muslim resistance groups, Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya, Kashmir. What is the common denominator? They are occupied by foreign powers, they are subjected to oppression at the hands of these powers. "To teach a man not to defend himself is criminal." - Malcolm X
And this is what The Messiah Jesus teaches :) Not just to not defend oneself but to love those who attack you. You are like all the other false religions who teach a message that man thinks is right, satan is laughing at your all.
Ohhh and Malcolm X a man who taught violent resistance who had a bloody end at the hands of a……Fellow muslim.
How representative of the greater Islamic world community riven with internal bloody hate filled strife and murder. There are thousands of Malcolm Xers in Pakistan right now dishing out and receiving a similar fate at the hands of fellow muslims.
Yet you feel the urge to misquote the Quran intentionally. You have been thoroughly revealed as dishonest in your quoting and fallous interpretation of the Quran. God teaches man that he should be honest in debate, no matter who he is debating. I have consistently been honest and straight-forward in my views.
Who cares for honestly given views that are wrong. I am honestly telling you that Jesus is the Only way to eternity with the God of Abraham and the accursed muhammed delivered a lie that has deceived many. he is not the only one. Jews rejected the mercy of God revealed by Jesus if they loved mercy as the torah told them too then they would have accepted Jesus. catholics accepted the lie of Constantine and embraced justifiable war. And so also the followers of muhammed because just like the rest they had rejected the love of the truth.
If you claim to follow God, then manipulation of verses [by selective misquoting, and taking out of context] from the Quran is a very low standard which you are holding. Furthermore, its easy to malign Islam as, unfortunately, it is the easy thing to do these days.
Yes the fruit of islam is for all the world to see. And each day they hate islam more and more.
There is a worldwide alliance of fundamentalist Christians, Zionists, Secularists, Atheists, Hindus, Idol-worshipers, Homosexuals, Pagans, and Heretics who wish to silence Islam and oppress Muslims. It takes men of courage to speak for truth and belief of God, and people would deny him his life and happiness for it.
There is a conspiracy yes and satan is running it and islam is one of his principal tools. Anyone who loves their lives more that God are susceptible to being used to go out and murder and oppress each other. All those who will not believe Jesus will be used by satan.
Therefore, it is of little relevance what you or anyone else thinks in this regard. I am 100% sure in my conviction to God, the one God, the Lord of Abraham. I have no need for pity in following truth,
But you follow a lie. You trust in a man muhammed, Why?
for the one who worships God, he will be oppressed in the land and his enemy will fight him and occupy his lands. So be it. God is enough support for me. If I was the only believer on this planet, in an ocean of disbelievers. I would still bear truth, regardless of the harm to my physical body. I have taken a covenant with God, that is more holy to me than anything else in existence. Come what may.
You have taken a covenant with the message of muhammed and in taking that covenant you have believed a lie, and what you have rejected, The love of the truth that is the Messiah Jesus, That is your only chance for salvation.
We worship the One God, the same God worshiped by our father Adam, the Lord of Noah, the Master of Abraham. What the Christians have stated, that Prophet Jesus is God is an outright lie and blasphemy against God. The Lord who created Adam from neither father or mother, what need of He to be a father to one of his Adam's offspring. Prophet Jesus was nothing but a man, a blessed and righteous man, the Messiah, but a man nonetheless. This point shall be personally taken to account by God alone on the Day of Judgment. (peace be upon all the prophets)
And the One sitting in Judgement on that day will be the Word of God who in the beginning was with God and was God.
The Arabic word is 'Mushrikeen' (coming from the Arabic root Sh R K), Shirk is defined as the association of any partners in worship with God. In Islam, this is the biggest sin a man can make, and the only unforgivable sin.
Who cares what the quran teaches you. Anyway we do not preach a partner to God, We preach that God and Jesus are one. Jesus the Word of God was with God AND WAS GOD. JESUS is God, the WORD made Flesh. But to those who have rejected the Love of the truth their minds are dimmed and they are given over to great deception. So it has happened as we see in the bloody hate filled world of today.
"Adstar:So does that mean you are to relent if a community of hundu pagans start regular prayers to vishnu??"
I don't even understand this question.
I am not surprised although the implication is clear.
"Adstar: Nooo it means when they repent and start to establish regular prayers to Allah"
Yes it does.
Yeahhhh :D SO IT MEANS THEY MUST CONVERT TO ISLAM TO BRING ABOUT AN END TO THE JIHAD BEING WAGED AGAINST THEM.
Once again jihad means waging warfare using all strategy’s against unbelievers until the submit to and accept islam as their religion. I stand correct and your twisted scriptures even declare it so.
Look above. I explained in the verses following this one. Unless they establish peace and have not broken their treaties.
Look above. I have clearly explained that they must convert and accept islam and pray to allah unless they do this then they will be attacked and killed to extinction:
As the quran says:
Qur’an 8:7 “Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: ‘Wipe the infidels out to the last.’”
Qur’an 8:39 “So, fight them till all opposition ends and the only religion is Islam.”
This is your mind playing tricks on you. You have nothing to stand on and have been thoroughly rebuked in my previous post, therefore now you have resorted to confusion. As stated above, Islam does not allow persecution of other people. There is nothing in the Quran to support that.
The confusion is in your mind, but you have been rattled to the core you hold on desperately to grand statements of faith but you are rattled All Praise be to the Ancient of Days. :)
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
DiamondHearts
05-11-09, 12:49 AM
There is no use debating someone who is intellectually dishonest and relies only on rhetoric to prove a point. I have already answered all the questions you just posed in my previous posts. Refer back to them.
If someone claims Islam is 'so and so', he should provide evidence from the Quran to support his claims. It is incumbent on those seeking truth, and not those merely spouting their own theories, to substantiate all claims from Islamic sources.
Furthermore, who is the author of the manipulative translation you just posted, also provide the website where you copied this.
JustLovely
05-11-09, 12:53 AM
Actually, the problem here is that true Islam was lost 1400 years ago. That's plain to see.
As I said before, it's really silly to suggest Allah needs a human to kill for Allah. That's just stupid. Allah would just kill the human Allah wanted dead - but Allah doesn't desire for death so it would never happen.
Also, there is no Satan, that's only a metaphor for humanity.
Diamondhearts will never embrace true Islam because it means giving up on too many of his/her false beliefs. Ideas like US versus THEM. Or lines on a map called "Pakistan". They think Indians, whom they are, are going to invade them! How silly. They are Indian and still worried about Indians.
You know, Afghanistan and Pakistan used to be Buddhist. I wonder, now that they are under the spell of false-Islam, does Diamonhearts thinks it's bad? I mean, here we heard how awful it is that their culture is being changed, but, when it changed to false-violent-Islam you think THAT was great?!?!?!
See, I think Afghan people were much better off as Buddhist than as Violent-Islam. And, if they peacefully turn to the Truth Faith, Ahmadiyya Islam and ask Mohammad for forgiveness and accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Messiah then they will be on the track to Peace again - as they were before this warped Islam filled with justification for Violence erupted.
Everyone knows that Arabs lost their way soon after Mohammad died. They even used their false "Islam" to attack and kill the peace loving Persians. At that point, true Islam was long gone.
Think about places like UAE, these were Persian Cities founded by great peaceful Persian people and now they are Arab Cities - still peaceful and great, yet, for Diamondhearts this is OK.... yet, it's not OK that the British/Americans come and attach his/her cities? That doens't make sense either it is OK or not OK.
Bascially Dianmondhears is so brainwashed by the false-Islam that it's pointless.
Anyone who thinks Allah need them to kill for Allah because Allah is not capable to do it, is just too far gone and filled with brainwashed violence and rage to worry about. I notice a lot of so-called Muslims on here are filled with violence and rage, which reminds me of people like the Arab boy who yelled and pushed my fiend and I. They will live their lives filled with suspicion, blame, violent thoughts and hate and one day die never knowing what this life was really meant to be about.
JustLovely
05-11-09, 01:11 AM
I see on the TV that Pakistani so-called Muslims (named the Amy) have MURDERED 200 Pakistani s-called Muslims (named the Taliban).
You see, both people here, pray to Allah to help them murder the other ones. That's messed up and anyone can see this philosophy is wrong. No American is standing their forcing them to murder one another, it's their warped version of true Islam that make them think it's OK, so, they do it.
Here's a Scientific FACT: If they put down their guns, asked Mohammad to forgive their sins and accepted Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Messiah then there would be ZERO murdering of one another but instead would be PEACE. That's really how easy it would be. Anyone can see that this would be a much better philosophy to live with - for everyone.
DiamondHearts
05-11-09, 01:26 AM
Unfortunately, seeking intellectual and honest discussion in this forum is like finding a single grain of sand in a desert.
Note to all previous posts in which anyone wishes to attribute things to me. I wasn't alive in ancient Perisa, nor ancient India, nor ancient Afghanistan or Pakistan. I am a Muslim who follows Islam, and I am not responsible if one man who claims to be a Muslim commits one crime. That has nothing to do with me, no matter how much you would like it to. I also never stated that people should kill innocents, I am completely opposed to that. I believe, however, that is someone is attacked, he has the right to defend himself. Is this clear enough.
Islam is defined as those who believe in one God (who has no partner, and whom is not comparable to man), follow the Quran and the Sunnah, and believe that the Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet and he is merely a human with no supernatural powers of his own. God rewards Muslims, God forgives their sins, God punishes man. Rather simple.
JustLovely
05-11-09, 05:52 AM
I also never stated that people should kill innocents, There you ARE DOING IT AGAIN.
The Taliban say the Amy are guilty and kill them and the Amy says the Taliban are guilty and kill them and round and round the block headed people go....
People shouldn't kill People - done. If Allah wanted someone dead then they'd be dead. It's as simple as that. It is physically IMPOSSIBLE to die if it is against the wishes of Allah.
Islam is defined as those who believe in one God (who has no partner, and whom is not comparable to man), follow the Quran and the Sunnah, and believe that the Prophet Muhammad is the last Prophet and he is merely a human with no supernatural powers of his own. God rewards Muslims, God forgives their sins, God punishes man. Rather simple.Your Islam is very simple minded.
It doesn't matter if a person believes in one or one million Gods. Allah isn't really worried, you know, Allah actually knows enough to know why people believe in millions of Gods or none. Allah isn't all that bothered as there are much more important things in this life.
The Sunnah ... please.
The Koran was perfect for people 1500 but get this YOU couldn't read the original Koran even if you wanted to! You don't know the background of the stories you don't know the frame of mind people thought in, etc...
Mohammad didn't have super human powers. I wonder, did Mohammad split the moon? You ever do that? Not that it matters if it happened or not, Mohammad's job on this Earth ended when he died where he took up a new job - forgiving you of your Sins in the name of Allah. Only an individual who was human can do this.
The Koran says that one should seek out knowledge - maybe you should look into accepting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Messiah and find out when knowledge you gain.
DiamondHearts
05-11-09, 09:53 PM
:crazy:
Islam is really simple. You are just making it complicated for no reason. Furthermore, no Prophet has any powers, except by what God Himself gives them the ability to do with His permission. No one can forgive sins but God.
With that, I'm done talking to you. May Allah guide us all to the true Islam, worship of One God. Ameen.
JustLovely
05-11-09, 10:47 PM
Orthodox Islam fits you perfectly DiamondHearts. I am surprised you don't go into becoming a Catholic Priest or something - you know: high on ritual and low on spiritual.
Wouldn't want to think outside of the box, no no no, better to stick with your crappy version of things.
no Prophet has any powers, except by what God Himself gives them the ability to do with His permission. And there you go. EXCEPT
You said it.
Except that which Allah gives, such as the ability to forgive humans who ask for it of their Sins.
Try it in earnest and you'll see or don't and stay in the sad state you are in.
As for the simplistic ideas you have. Yes, the idea there is a One Allah or a Last Prophet are so simplistic as to boarder on the inane. These will take a person about as far as you are at DiamondHearts - - a person who sees us versus them and thinks non-Innocent humans are ripe for murder, not only that, that Allah sanctions it.
True Islam will eventually prevail. Each day Human's turn against your type of Islam and over the centuries your way of thinking will be left to the pages of time.
look into accepting Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as the Messiah and find Peace OR waste the rest of your life in ignorance, which I hear is bliss, so you should at least fully a blissfully dull existence :)
One Thousand and One Nights is a collection of folk tales and other stories derived from a pre-Islamic Persian prototype that probably relied partly on Indian elements, but the work as we have it was collected over many centuries by various authors, The tales themselves trace their roots back to ancient and medieval Arabic, Persian, Indian, Egyptian and Mesopotamian folk-lore and literature. This was a time when Muslims were open minded and closer to Allah. Now-a-days they are full of hate and so suc so that a book like this one (composed of non-orthodox "Indian" stories) would never be made.
That's how FAR DOWN Islam has slid. WAY WAY down so far indeed that Allah needed to send the Messiah Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to try and fix things.
Leave your orthodoxy behind, ask Mohammad to forgive you of your Sins DiamondHearts and embrace True Islam.
:crazy:
Islam is really simple. You are just making it complicated for no reason. Furthermore, no Prophet has any powers, except by what God Himself gives them the ability to do with His permission. No one can forgive sins but God.
With that, I'm done talking to you. May Allah guide us all to the true Islam, worship of One God. Ameen.
Thats the wisest course. :D
Why would a god want worship any way?
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