to vacinate or not to vacinate

[Asguard]

so the debate is on again like always. should vacinating children be manditory. ovioulsly there is a percentage of the population cant be cacinated because of allergies but that is quite a small percentage. for the rest of us who arnt allergic vacinating both ourselves and our children protects not only ourselves but other people as well including that group who cant vacinate and those who it doesnt work on.

we managed to wipe out smallpox but polio, TB and woping cough continue to exist because vacination rates are not high enough.

[Trippy]

Vaccination is the ultimate expression of Hoemopathic principles anyway :3

[Asguard]

trippy i would love to see how you justify that statement:p

[takandjive]

I think hep and tetnus shots are pretty important. I'm not sure I want my child having the full DPT set as I was so violently allergic that I had a seizure at age 2. Not that any people die from whooping cough in America. It's not a disease that really ruins your life.

[Asguard]

takandjive

compleatly wrong, if kids arnt dying from it thats only because of vacinations. it used to kill hundreds (or more and rember smaller population) before vacinations existed for it. further more kids are dying NOW from it and there is no treatments. the reason for the timing of this thread was an artical on the channel 7 news program tonight by the parents of a baby who died 2 weeks before her vacinations and the queensland peaditriction who treated her and runs the unit.

these diseses shouldnt exist anymore, its not just yourself and your oen children at risk. your not even just putting people who cant be vacinated because of allergies at risk, your putting the most vulnerable at risk, the cancer pts, the newborns, the organ recipiants, the HIV positive and others

[takandjive]

I'm not sure, given that the vaccine for whooping cough almost killed me and it's a fairly innocuous disease, that if I found out there was a good chance my child would have the same reaction I had, that I'd get it for her/him. I don't want to put innocent people at risk, but if I have an update on my DPT shot, I'll probably die. My point is, I want my medical history reviewed before they shoot up and kill my future child because it was mandatory.

[Asguard]

im not suggesting that if someone has a high risk of anaphaxis they should be forced to have it and die. most people ARNT alergic though and its NOT a "fairly innocuous disease". better everyone else is vacinated as that would also protect YOUR child

[takandjive]

Isn't the main problem with whooping cough what it spawns into, not what it is?

My point was, I go through a big pain in the ass here in America to explain why I don't have certain shots. When I apply for certain jobs or go certain places, it's a big song and dance number. So I think closer attention needs to be paid by medical staff in explaining why and reviewing whether or not someone even should receive a shot.

[Asguard]

Worldwide, there are 10–90 million pertussis cases and about 600,000 deaths per year. Despite generally high coverage with the DTP and DTaP vaccines, pertussis is one of the leading causes of vaccine-preventable deaths world-wide. Sixty percent of all cases occur in the Third World. Canada is the only rich, industrial nation in which pertussis is still commonplace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis


now rember most of those 10,000,000 will be health adults and most of the 600,000 will be babies and then see if you still think its a "fairly innocuous disease". i will try to get a WHO chart tomorow but i cant on my phone

[takandjive]

Worldwide, there are 10–90 million pertussis cases and about 600,000 deaths per year. Despite generally high coverage with the DTP and DTaP vaccines, pertussis is one of the leading causes of vaccine-preventable deaths world-wide. Sixty percent of all cases occur in the Third World. Canada is the only rich, industrial nation in which pertussis is still commonplace

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pertussis


now rember most of those 10,000,000 will be health adults and most of the 600,000 will be babies and then see if you still think its a "fairly innocuous disease". i will try to get a WHO chart tomorow but i cant on my phone

In third world countries, absolutely the death toll will be high. I was talking about us Richie Riches like the USA and Australia, primarily. Although I love that you appeal to my unique sense of logic.

Asguard: 10,000,000 adults!

Me: I can live with that.

Asguard: 600,000 babies!

Me: The ugly ones, right?

Asguard: Your child might be mildly inconvenienced by this!

Me: NOOOO!

I'm just not sure in a country like the US where health care is privatized that it's fair or right they force me to do anything as an adult. I'd like to see the stats though. I'm broad-minded.

[Asguard]

um your missing a couple of points

1)that wasnt my point at all. my point was that if your child CANT be vacinated due to allergies then at least they still will be by other peoples immunity

2) you missed the last sentance. canada has a problem with it still and its rising in Australia

3) of course its higher in the third world. vacination rates are almost zero there

as i said i will get the WHO mortality and morbidity rates at uni tomorow hopefully by age and country

[takandjive]

1) Most people will get these shots voluntarily. Do we really need to enforce this?

2) The death rate from pertussis? Or the incidents of the disease itself? And how much?

3) They also don't have treatment for the disease as available in third world countries. If you get whooping cough in Australia or England, it's unlikely to be a big deal. We're talking about vaccines that are linked to seizures and autism. I think that's a very personal choice.

[Asguard]

general infection rates and BTW the links to autisium has been debunked tume and again. there IS no link, the only people who ard still producing that junk are those idiologically oposed. will try to post the evidence against that as well

[Asguard]

put it this way, the doc they interviewed had three pts. 2 walked out (figrativly speaking concidering they were babies), 1 died. not a large sample size but i expect that rate will be acurate.

[visceral_instinct]

Unless they have a serious allergy, have it done.

[takandjive]

Unless they have a serious allergy, have it done.

I agree it should be done if there's no allergy risk. I'm just not sure it should be legally mandated.

[Nasor]

im not suggesting that if someone has a high risk of anaphaxis they should be forced to have it and die. most people ARNT alergic though and its NOT a "fairly innocuous disease". better everyone else is vacinated as that would also protect YOUR child
The allergy thing is really a non-issue anyway. There are various alternative versions of all the major vaccines available that are made in different ways to avoid whatever specific allergy you (or your children) might have. There might be some small number of people with very rare, freaky allergies that none of the standard non-allergenic vaccines could work for, but that would be a truly tiny percentage of the population. (And even then, the worst-case scenario is probably that the nurse has to inject you with some epinephrine afterward.)

[Trippy]

trippy i would love to see how you justify that statement:p

The work of Paracelsus in the field of toxicology is often cited by Homeopathists as being some of the founding work in Homeopathy (at least as I understand it, it's a claim you'll see made on many homeopathy websites).

To some extent, vaccination is the ultimate expression of the principle "Alle Ding sind Gift, und nichts ohn Gift; allein die Dosis macht, daß ein Ding kein Gift ist."
"All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."

Which, if you cut through the dilution woo-woo is ultimately what homeopathy is about - that which mimics the symptoms, gives the cure.

[Trippy]

The allergy thing is really a non-issue anyway. There are various alternative versions of all the major vaccines available that are made in different ways to avoid whatever specific allergy you (or your children) might have. There might be some small number of people with very rare, freaky allergies that none of the standard non-allergenic vaccines could work for, but that would be a truly tiny percentage of the population. (And even then, the worst-case scenario is probably that the nurse has to inject you with some epinephrine afterward.)

Does that include culturing virii without egg yolk?

[Asguard]

possably, depends on the vacine i guess. as i understand it there are two types. one is a direct dose of antibodies which have been manifactured in egg yolks or pigs or whatever. the second is a live virus but a weakened strain, like the small pox vacine which is cowpox.

however there are 2 differences between vacines and moden homopathics

1) its NOT just water and no one ever claims it is. it most definintly contains either a dose of antibodies for the body to replicate, or something for the body to fight

2) more importantly there is EVIDENCE for the efficacy of vacines where homopathy has none

as a side note i would like to say that your quote is correct in that the dose does change something from being toxic to helpful. somethings the body can control itself and some it cant Na+ and K+ are good examples of that.

[visceral_instinct]

By the way about homeopathy, there is usually actually NO active ingredient. If there is an effect, it's a placebo.

[Trippy]

1) its NOT just water and no one ever claims it is. it most definintly contains either a dose of antibodies for the body to replicate, or something for the body to fight

2) more importantly there is EVIDENCE for the efficacy of vacines where homopathy has none

To be explicit and clear - neither of these are points that I have questioned or debated, as a scientest (remember, I'm an environmental chemist, I work in applied sciences - also bear in mind my comment about the dilution woo-woo) i'm well aware of both of these facts, and if you actually research into the work that Paracelsus did, you would find that what he did more closely resembled modern medicine than Homeopathy as it exists today nevertheless, many sources of information on homeopathy, written by people who practice Homeopathy credit Paracelsus with 'founding' homeopathy (even though based on what I have learned about Paracelsus through my years of debating with peopl pro homeopathy, I have come to the conclusion he would roll in his grave at being associated with it).

Calling Vaccination the ultimate expression of homeopathic principles is actually (especially once you dig into the history of homeopathy) a dig at Homeopathy, not modern medicine.


as a side note i would like to say that your quote is correct in that the dose does change something from being toxic to helpful. somethings the body can control itself and some it cant Na+ and K+ are good examples of that.
No offense, but i've studied enough toxicology through my post grad studies of the UNGHS to realize this (admittedly, I flunked, but only because due to personal pressures, new family, sick wife, new job, etc, I was unable to complete the course work).

[Asguard]

dude, i realised that the second after i oosted the origional post (hense the "moden" in my post). ive also come across him before and i agree with his statement that SOME OF THE TIME "the disease is its own killer". after all thats what vacination is all about. however he never said it always was (good example is that giving acid for metabolic acidosis would be insane). in my opinion however its an insult to the guy for scientists such as yourself to give credit to the homo-nuts claim that they are simply following his work.

you have to rember this isnt just a discussion between you and i. this is a public board and sometimes you have to rember that not everything i write is actually aimmed at the person im discussing it with. not everyone here has studied SCIENCE, let alone biology and health science. so please dont take my posts as a personal offront

[Trippy]

dude, i realised that the second after i oosted the origional post (hense the "moden" in my post). ive also come across him before and i agree with his statement that SOME OF THE TIME "the disease is its own killer". after all thats what vacination is all about. however he never said it always was (good example is that giving acid for metabolic acidosis would be insane).
Good good (I agree 100%).

in my opinion however its an insult to the guy for scientists such as yourself to give credit to the homo-nuts claim that they are simply following his work.
Hence my comment about Paracelsus rolling in his grave if he knew what was being attributed to him, and my trying to make the point that generally it's ONLY practitioners of Homeopathy that attribute homeopathy to him (the reality of the situation is a lot more complicated than that, while elements of Homeopathy might be traceable back to him, the dilution woo-woo had nothing to do with him - at least as near as I've been able to figure).

you have to rember this isnt just a discussion between you and i. this is a public board and sometimes you have to rember that not everything i write is actually aimmed at the person im discussing it with. not everyone here has studied SCIENCE, let alone biology and health science. so please dont take my posts as a personal offront

Same goes.

[mrow]

Depends on the vaccine. Is there a specific one you're talking about?

[Billy T]

... as a side note i would like to say that your quote is correct in that the dose does change something from being toxic to helpful. {Or conversely} somethings the body can control itself and some it cant Na+ and K+ are good examples of that.An unconscious lady was admitted via emergency room of Johns Hopkins, quite a few years ago and they could not save her. She was on some religious binge about drinking water to purify herself. Effectively she washed out these and other essential ions. I think her heart stopped, but I forget the details. Point is even drinking pure water will kill you if the dose is high enough. As I recall, her friend said she had recently increased her pure water drinking to about 5 gallons per day.

[Orleander]

My kids had to be immunized or they couldn't attend school. If I said they didn't need the chicken pox vaccination, I would have been told I had to home school them.

Since my kids have had the chicken pox vaccination, does that mean they will never get shingles?

[scott3x]

so the debate is on again like always. should vacinating children be manditory. ovioulsly there is a percentage of the population cant be cacinated because of allergies but that is quite a small percentage. for the rest of us who arnt allergic vacinating both ourselves and our children protects not only ourselves but other people as well including that group who cant vacinate and those who it doesnt work on.

we managed to wipe out smallpox but polio, TB and woping cough continue to exist because vacination rates are not high enough.

"There are significant risks associated with every immunization and numerous contraindications that may make it dangerous for the shots to be given to your child.... Immunization against relatively harmless childhood diseases may be responsible for the dramatic increase in autoimmune diseases." Dr. Robert Mendelsohn MD, pediatrician

More from http://www.vran.org/ (Vaccination Risk Awareness Network, a Canadian site):
Your Informed Choice

All Canadians have the right to make decisions regarding vaccination guided by full knowledge about risks and benefits. The principle of "Informed Consent" is at the foundation of Canadian Medical Law; it grants "every individual the right to information on material risks and the fundamental right of persons to be free from unwanted physical interference". Vaccination is an invasive medical procedure that carries a risk of both injury and death; it is not exempt from Medical Law nor the ethic of Informed Consent.

[tuberculatious]

ovioulsly there is a percentage of the population cant be cacinated because of allergies but that is quite a small percentage.


what is cacinated?

[scott3x]

what is cacinated?

Didn't show up when I googled for it. Anyway, here's a good story to consider just in case you think that vaccination is the thing to do (tm), especially in the case of babies...

Death By Lethal Vaccine Infection
By Christine Colebeck
9-17-4


Today is my daughter's sweet 16th birthday but we will not be celebrating. Instead I will light a candle and when I blow it out I will make a wish in my daughter's memory. My wish is for all mother's worldwide, that you will educate yourselves and that you make informed choices so that you may prevent unnecessary tragedy and be spared from my pain.

Laura's Story

After 41 weeks of pregnancy, on July 27th, 1986, a perfect and healthy little baby, Laura Marie, made her entrance into the world. We were welcomed home by family and friends anxiously waiting to meet the new family member. They showered her with so many beautiful, little tiny, pink dresses, we joked that she would never be able to wear them all in one lifetime.

Our lives changed completely and now revolved around stroller walks in the park, visiting friends, changing diapers, night feedings and shopping for more little pink dresses. We were parents now, we had a family and life was absolutely perfect.

I took Laura for several baby check-ups at the pediatrician. She was a kind and gentle older woman. At 3 months old, the pediatrician was very pleased with Laura's development and weight gain and vaccinated her with DPT OPV. I didn't even question her, I knew that all my friend's babies had this same vaccine and "all good mothers" vaccinated their children to protect them. I left the pediatrician's office and walked home....

I'll spare you guys the details, but for those who want to continue reading, the rest is here:
http://www.rense.com/general57/ddee.htm

[tuberculatious]

In 2007, there were 197 000 measles deaths globally - nearly 540 deaths every day or 22 deaths every hour.

[scott3x]

Here's another link, this time from the mass media:
Controversy over vaccine-autism link endures (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080201/thimerosal_080202/20080202?hub=Entertainment), from CTV.ca

Here's the start:
The belief that routine childhood vaccines can lead to autism remains one of the most stubbornly enduring.

The mainstream medical community insists there is no evidence to support the theory, and cite study after study that have found no link. Yet the Internet is filled with groups and organizations who insist that vaccines are causing children to become autistic...

[scott3x]

One more; this one is from MSNBC in October 2007, which claims that 6 out of 1000 children get autism due to vaccines...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc

[Asguard]

what is cacinated?

im typing on a touch phone and it doesnt always pick the right keys. if youlook at your keyboard you willl see that next to c is v. it was ment to be vacinated

[Trippy]

Didn't show up when I googled for it. Anyway, here's a good story to consider just in case you think that vaccination is the thing to do (tm), especially in the case of babies...


I'll spare you guys the details, but for those who want to continue reading, the rest is here:
http://www.rense.com/general57/ddee.htm

Lovely appeal to emotion that is.

I could make some honest comments, but, I doubt they'd be very popular.

[Asguard]

trippy, you mean like the fact the site is a right wing nutjob website. i mean "obama is the antichrist". is that seriously the best you guys can do? ill give you some help.

open google and type in "cochrane" then once you open the cochrane collaberation sit, in the search bar type in vacination, autisium and see what comes up

[Trippy]

trippy, you mean like the fact the site is a right wing nutjob website. i mean "obama is the antichrist". is that seriously the best you guys can do? ill give you some help.

open google and type in "cochrane" then once you open the cochrane collaberation sit, in the search bar type in vacination, autisium and see what comes up

Oh, I'm well aware of the woo-woo content on that particular site, but no, that's not the opinion that I was talking about.

Personally, I think that both the parents and the paediatrician in the story were incompetent.

A parent should be the first person to know when something is wrong with their child.
A paediatrician should familiarize themselves with the medicine they're using.
If the parents involved had stuck to their guns, and gone to their local ED, and listened to that niggling voice in the back of their heads (see above) things might have turned out very, very differently.

:Shrugs:

Ultimately, shit happens.

I also feel compelled to point out that "Laura's Story" is set in 1986, DTaP wasn't introduced until 1991, so the vaccine of this story is a different to the vaccinations that are used to do (in 1986 it would have been the whole cell vaccine). DTaP uses antigen fragments, where as DTP used whole cells.

What really pisses me off about the whole thing is that, rense.com and a number of websites imply that doctors don't like aknowledging that vaccinations can have serious side effects, they seem to think that there's some sort of conspiracy of silence going on and yet...

Less than five minutes alone with Google and I found this:

http://pediatrics.about.com/library/vis/bl_dtap.htm

Oops. So much for a conspiracy. Oh well, better luck next time.

The information is freely available, what's lacking is education.

DTaP causes severe reactions in less than 1 in a million cases.
Diptheria has a morbidity rate of 5-10% Do you understand what that means?
Neonatal Tetanus is responsible for 14% of neonatal fatalities in the developing world.
Whooping Cough has a morbidity rate around 1-6%

Are you beginning to understand the significance yet?
We've replaced three diseases that killed 8.3% of people that contracted them, with an injection that has a morbidity rate of less than 1 in a million.

This rhetoric (and it is, it's pure bleeding heart, emotional appeal rhetoric) about 'acceptable losses' is just PURE BS.

Edit: I know parts of this post read like they're directed at Asguard, but pretty much everything after the shrug isn't.

[Trippy]

In fact here, have some more facts to counter the emotional appeals:

http://www.immune.org.nz/site_resources/Parents/FAQs%20PDFS/Comparison_of_Effects_of_Diseases_and_Vaccines_(sh ort_version).pdf

[Trippy]

And in relation to "Laura's Story"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphalaxis

[scott3x]

And in relation to "Laura's Story"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaphalaxis

Nods; a lot of people have bad reactions to things like mercury as well, which is in a fair amount of vaccines. Same goes for mercury fillings; many dentists are now not using them anymore. There are other bad things in vaccines as well. From what I've heard, vaccines aren't very effective even without all these bad things anyway.

What should be credited far more than vaccines for raising the life expectancy of people is better diet; although it's been growing worse for many in many ways, resulting in a very high obesity level and things like high levels of LDL, which frequently leads to strokes and heart attacks.

[Trippy]

Nods; a lot of people have bad reactions to things like mercury as well, which is in a fair amount of vaccines. Same goes for mercury fillings; many dentists are now not using them anymore. There are other bad things in vaccines as well. From what I've heard, vaccines aren't very effective even without all these bad things anyway.

What should be credited far more than vaccines for raising the life expectancy of people is better diet; although it's been growing worse for many in many ways, resulting in a very high obesity level and things like high levels of LDL, which frequently leads to strokes and heart attacks.

Well, next time you look at information on infection rates in vaccinated peopl versus non vaccinated people, you migyht want to try opening your eyes (assuming you have actually bothered looking any of this infomation up, rather than just taking the word of a few alarmist and clearly biased websites).

Oh, and congratulations on completely missing the point of the link to the page on Anaphalaxis. Read through "Laura's Story" again, and then read through the list of symptons (heck, compare the first sympton on the list to the first thing that happened on the way home).

[Asguard]

http://www.nevdgp.org.au/info/Pattison/Child_immunization/full.htm

[scott3x]

Well, next time you look at information on infection rates in vaccinated peopl versus non vaccinated people, you migyht want to try opening your eyes (assuming you have actually bothered looking any of this infomation up, rather than just taking the word of a few alarmist and clearly biased websites).

Oh, and congratulations on completely missing the point of the link to the page on Anaphalaxis. Read through "Laura's Story" again, and then read through the list of symptons (heck, compare the first sympton on the list to the first thing that happened on the way home).

Be this as it may, the doctor should have told her that; the fact that she didn't points to the fact that there is a lot that doctors don't know about but should. Along that line of reasoning, there is lots of evidence that things like mercury, which is in many vaccines, is quite harmful to most people. I believe there some other toxic preservatives that are used as well. I recommend that you read naturopathic doctor John Matsen's book "Eating Alive II", to get a fuller picture on the issue.

[Asguard]

"naturopathic doctor" is an oximoron, though in the case of a naturopath i would drop the "oxi"

[scott3x]

"naturopathic doctor" is an oximoron, though in the case of a naturopath i would drop the "oxi"

It's not an oximoron, whatever you might think. Here's the beginning of what's on the back cover of his first book, Eating Alive:
Dr. Jonn Matsen developed poor circulation in his fingers during his late teens that could have led to amputation. He began exploring health and healing. Dr. Matsen became a Chartered Herbalist in 1976. Later, in 1983, he graduated from the John Bastyr College of Naturopathic Medicine in Seattle, Washington. Since then he has operated the North Shore Naturopathic Clinic in North Vancouver, British Columbia.

He actually began to study as a normal allopathic doctor, but when he realized it wasn't helping him with his hands, he decided to learn more about alternative methods of treatment. This doesn't mean, however, that he forgot his allopathic training or that he doesn't use much of their research in his books; I can't remember if it was his second book or his third that had 100 pages of reference material. Anyway, you can, ofcourse, believe whatever you like as to whether he knows what he's doing or not, but I doubt you've read any of his books, let alone all 3 of them.

[Asguard]

not a chance, im done with the quacks (im mean real quacks not the nickname for a doctor). i surport evidence based health care and organisations like cochrane, not books written by loons and those who pray on the sick. that he used to be a real doctor before becoming a con man just makes it worse

[takandjive]

Asguard, I hate faith healers as much as you do, possibly more, but some alternative medicine has proven useful. Much appreciated on the stats, but it doesn't relate to how treatable the illnesses were in Australia. I think I'll likely have any future children vaccinated, but not without a helluva lot more research regarding how likely my allergies are to pass on.

[Orleander]

Asguard, I hate faith healers as much as you do, possibly more, but some alternative medicine has proven useful. Much appreciated on the stats, but it doesn't relate to how treatable the illnesses were in Australia. I think I'll likely have any future children vaccinated, but not without a helluva lot more research regarding how likely my allergies are to pass on.

alternative meds are taught in pharmacy colleges here. More and more pharmacies do compounding involving herbal meds.

[tuberculatious]

im typing on a touch phone and it doesnt always pick the right keys. if youlook at your keyboard you willl see that next to c is v. it was ment to be vacinated

Did you mean vaccinated?

[Trippy]

Be this as it may, the doctor should have told her that; the fact that she didn't points to the fact that there is a lot that doctors don't know about but should. Along that line of reasoning, there is lots of evidence that things like mercury, which is in many vaccines, is quite harmful to most people. I believe there some other toxic preservatives that are used as well. I recommend that you read naturopathic doctor John Matsen's book "Eating Alive II", to get a fuller picture on the issue.

Good god man, have you read anything I've said?

How about you do some reading to get a fuller picture.

Oh wow. A doctor cocked up and missed some symptoms. Like that's never ever ever ever ever happened before, not once in the history of medicine. You know what? In my opinion, as i've already stated, Laura's mother cocked up as well, she states that she had that nagging feeling that something was wrong, but failed to act on it. I don't know about where you live, but here one of the first things that you get told in ante natal classes is that if you think that something's still wrong, even after talking to the healthline GO TO THE HOSPITAL.

But then, Laura's story is set 15 years ago WITH A VACCINE THAT IS NO LONGER USED

News flash for ya, it's something you could have found out for yourself if you had done a little bit of research instead of jumping on the emotive band-wagon: As of Summer 2001, Thiomersal - the mercury based preservative that was used in some, but not all vaccines (it's never been present in live vaccines) was stopped in the states in routine infant vaccinations, and the US is not the only country to make this move in spite of the fact that there is no evidence supporting the link between Thiomersal and Autism (in fact recent research suggests that Autistic Spectrum Disorders are related to a maternal immune response to the fetus).

So your objections on the grounds of Thiomersal are completely and utterly wholly without merit.

Even in countries that still use vaccinations with Thiomersal as a preservative, there are mercury free alternatives, should it be discovered that the infant is sensitive to Thiomersal.

[visceral_instinct]

"naturopathic doctor" is an oximoron, though in the case of a naturopath i would drop the "oxi"

No shit.

I once very stupidly went to a herbalist for an unknown problem with my adrenal glands. (I know, I know...I didn't like the idea of going to a normal doctor and getting some drug with a whole lexicon of side effects...I would NEVER do that again). I was hyperactive all the time and having massive adrenaline rushes for no reason. Not just a little jolt but going really white and hyperventilating. I looked like I was on amphetamines. As disorders go, quite a fun one to have, but obviously I had to have it looked at.

She first decided it was my fault for listening to heavy metal all the time. Yup, she actually reckoned that the fast beat could be cranking up my levels to 'deranged girl on methedrine' proportions. Then that I must have been sexually abused. Seriously, she asked if I had any history of sexual abuse, then when I said no, she said 'But kids block it out, you know.' Fucking freak.

Happily, whatever the disorder was, I'm ok now.

[Trippy]

One more nail - or, yet another reason why some of the emotive rhetoric being forwarded in this thread is simply wrong.

Firstly, Thiomersal allergies can be tested for.
Secondly, it's not neccesarily the Mercury in the Thiomersal that has caused the problems.
http://dermnetnz.org/dermatitis/thiomersal-allergy.html

[Orleander]

One more nail - or, yet another reason why some of the emotive rhetoric being forwarded in this thread is simply wrong.....

yeah, I wouldn't want to be the kid of some of the posters here.

[Trippy]

yeah, I wouldn't want to be the kid of some of the posters here.

I can't work out if this is directed at me, or someone else :/

[Orleander]

I can't work out if this is directed at me, or someone else :/

someone else

[CutsieMarie89]

Oh course I would vaccinate my kids, with the tried and true that have been used for a long time, Newer ones I might question it a bit. Like the swine flu vaccine :rolleyes: I wouldn't want my kid to have that.

[Asguard]

CutsieMarie89

a) that is the most likly to become compulsery
b) its made in the exact same way that the normal seasonal flu vacines are made, they were discussing it on the radio the other day and the company they interviewed was saying if it was needed urgently then what they would do is dump all the current seasonal vaciness and make this one exclusivly. If its slighly less urgent they would just add it as one of the strains in the normal seasonal flu vacine

[CutsieMarie89]

CutsieMarie89

a) that is the most likly to become compulsery
b) its made in the exact same way that the normal seasonal flu vacines are made, they were discussing it on the radio the other day and the company they interviewed was saying if it was needed urgently then what they would do is dump all the current seasonal vaciness and make this one exclusivly. If its slighly less urgent they would just add it as one of the strains in the normal seasonal flu vacine

Vaccinations are compulsory, if you want your kid to interact with other kids (like go to school or daycare). I was talking about the vaccine for the Swine flu when it popped up in the 70s. It caused some sort of neurological disease. I think it's better to wait a vaccine out if it's brand new and give people time to discover what the side-effects might be before shooting my kid up with it. I did the same thing for myself when considering getting the cervical cancer vaccine. A little research never hurts.

[Asguard]

umm i dont know what power the CDC has in the US but in australia the Federal health act aparently confers almost unlimited power onto the Chief medical officer who can order that everyone in australia recive a manditory vacination in resonce to a decleration of a pandemic

[visceral_instinct]

There's a vaccine for swine flu?

I want it...

[Trippy]

There's a vaccine for swine flu?

I want it...

It's got mercury in it....:tempted: (It's one of the few vaccines that do still have Mercury in it).

[visceral_instinct]

It's got mercury in it....:tempted: (It's one of the few vaccines that do still have Mercury in it).

Poo...

How dangerous is mercury?

[Trippy]

Poo...

How dangerous is mercury?

In the amounts that it's present in flu vaccinations? That depends entirely upon how sensitive you are to Ethylmercurial compounds.

Are you old enough to remember Mercurochrome?

[visceral_instinct]

I don't know what mercurochrome is, so no. (I'm 19)

[madanthonywayne]

For vaccination to be effective we need to have a high enough percentage of the population vaccinated to get "herd immunity". Otherwise, it's a waste. So yes, make the vaccines mandatory.

[Orleander]

were the polio and smallpox vaccinations mandatory at one time?

[tuberculatious]

were the polio and smallpox vaccinations mandatory at one time?

No, people were smarter back then and just did it. Now they let the internet think for them and we get this anti-vaccine lunacy.

[KernNeart]

i can understand making vaccinations manditroy on things like whopping cough, but my mother forced me to get an HPV shot and i was not at all comfortable with it.. they only have a limited number of years to fall back on.. what if at some later stage it become carsinigenic?

[Trippy]

In principal the HPV shot is no different to any other viral vaccination, and we have many years combined experience in viral vaccinations generally.

[Nasor]

The thing about the HPV vaccine is that unlike virtually everything else that people get vaccinated for, you can easily avoid getting HPV by simply not having sex with people who have it. If you're married, for example, there might be no reason to get vaccinated. But they certainly go out of their way to avoid mentioning that to people in their marketing campaign.

[takandjive]

Um, HPV is VERY easy to get. If someone gets/gives a blowjob, they can get it. I believe it's possible to get it from kissing.

[Nasor]

Um, HPV is VERY easy to get. If someone gets/gives a blowjob, they can get it. I believe it's possible to get it from kissing.
Everything I've read indicates that sex is by far the most common way people get the strains of HPV that cause cervical cancer, and that the vaccine protects against. And like I said, if you aren't planning to have sex (or give a blowjob to) someone with HPV (ie, if you are married), then there's really little reason to get the vaccine.

[visceral_instinct]

The thing about the HPV vaccine is that unlike virtually everything else that people get vaccinated for, you can easily avoid getting HPV by simply not having sex with people who have it. If you're married, for example, there might be no reason to get vaccinated. But they certainly go out of their way to avoid mentioning that to people in their marketing campaign.

And how exactly are you supposed to know if the person you're fucking has it?

[Trippy]

Everything I've read indicates that sex is by far the most common way people get the strains of HPV that cause cervical cancer, and that the vaccine protects against. And like I said, if you aren't planning to have sex (or give a blowjob to) someone with HPV (ie, if you are married), then there's really little reason to get the vaccine.

Marriage won't stop you from getting it if your husband has it.

Do you honestly know how many people your partner has had sex with before meeting you?

Do I know if I even know if i've had a one night stand with someone carrying the virus before marrying my wife?

[takandjive]

Everything I've read indicates that sex is by far the most common way people get the strains of HPV that cause cervical cancer, and that the vaccine protects against. And like I said, if you aren't planning to have sex (or give a blowjob to) someone with HPV (ie, if you are married), then there's really little reason to get the vaccine.

Uh, yeah. Because NEVER having sex until marriage is practical and a married guy comes with a stamp on his dick that says, "NO HPV!"

[Trippy]

Everything I've read indicates that sex is by far the most common way people get the strains of HPV that cause cervical cancer, and that the vaccine protects against. And like I said, if you aren't planning to have sex (or give a blowjob to) someone with HPV (ie, if you are married), then there's really little reason to get the vaccine.

I would also like to point out another (in my opinion) really stupid thing about this objection.

I spent less than 5 minutes (further) educating myself (I actually wasn't looking for this specific information, I was trying to find out if it's possible to carry HPV without symptoms, goes to show just how easy it is to find).
I went to Wikipedia.
Typed in HPV and pressed enter.
The web page that bought up had a link to the HPV Vaccine page.
I read through the introduction of the article, then scrolled to the end to look at the references, and found this link to the CDC Webpage
http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/STDFact-HPV-vaccine-young-women.htm
Please note the bottom most link titled: "Other ways to prevent HPV and Cervical Cancer".
Following that link takes you here: http://www.cdc.gov/std/hpv/STDFact-HPV-vaccine-young-women.htm#hpvvac7

Which says, and I quote:
Are there other ways to prevent HPV?
The only sure way to prevent HPV is to abstain from all sexual activity. For those who are sexually active, condoms may lower the chances of getting HPV, if used all the time and the right way. Condoms may also lower the risk of developing HPV-related diseases (genital warts and cervical cancer). But HPV can infect areas that are not covered by a condom—so condoms may not fully protect against HPV.

Sexually active adults can also lower their risk of HPV by being in a mutually faithful relationship with someone who has had no or few sex partners, or by limiting their number of sex partners. The fewer partners a person has had – the less likely he or she is to have HPV. But even persons with only one lifetime sex partner can get HPV, if their partner has had previous partners.

There is no conspiracy of silence, only a conspiracy of ignorance.

The FACTS are OUT THERE, and easily accessable.

[Trippy]

Let me be clear - I'm not being rude to Nasor, i'm simply using the word 'ignorant' ion the context of "Someone who is unaware of a fact is ignorant of that fact".

[Nasor]

And how exactly are you supposed to know if the person you're fucking has it?

Marriage won't stop you from getting it if your husband has it.

Do you honestly know how many people your partner has had sex with before meeting you?

Do I know if I even know if i've had a one night stand with someone carrying the virus before marrying my wife?
If your husband has it then you almost certainly already have it too and there's no point in getting vaccinated anyway (unless you're in a remarkably sex-free marriage). If your husband doesn't have it and neither of you are planning on fucking other people, then there is again no need to get vaccinated.
Uh, yeah. Because NEVER having sex until marriage is practical and a married guy comes with a stamp on his dick that says, "NO HPV!"
You fail at reading comprehension. I said there's little reason to get the vaccine if you're already married. I never said anything about never having sex before marriage.
There is no conspiracy of silence, only a conspiracy of ignorance.

The FACTS are OUT THERE, and easily accessable.
Of course the information is out there if you dig for it. I was talking about their massive marketing campaign that targets all women 26 and under.

[EmeraldAxe]

i can understand making vaccinations manditroy on things like whopping cough, but my mother forced me to get an HPV shot and i was not at all comfortable with it.. they only have a limited number of years to fall back on.. what if at some later stage it become carsinigenic?

What if HPV is already causally linked to another type of particularly nasty cancer? What if you plan to have sex with multiple people or use public restrooms? What if you decide you're not comfortable with pap smears either? Your mom isn't automatically wrong because she's your mom. You should not always agree with her, but if you're going to dissent, make a stronger argument so you actually have a chance to succeed.

[WillNever]

We all but eradicated polio in the USA through vaccination.

Yes to vaccination.

[jibbleton]

Vaccination rates are already quite high in Australia thanks to carrot and stick policies.

Carrot: Maternal immunisation payment. Vaccinate your kid, get paid.

Stick: Don't vaccinate your kid and you'll have a hell of a time getting them into childcare or schools.

The problem with a law requiring vaccination is that it would be a pain to enforce, especially given the dismal state of medical records in this country. I'd be more interested in the implementation of other policies like the above which would encourage the small percentage who hold out against vaccination to change their ways.

[visceral_instinct]

Plus I think if someone were trying to forcibly inject me I think I'd a) kick them in the face and b) do my best to leave the country.

[Slysoon]

Vaccines which use thimerosal (a mercury compound) as a preservative revolve around the assumption - one unfounded by science - that ethylmercury, a compound the body metabolizes thimerosal to (alongside thiosalicylate), shares a toxicity level equal to methylmercury. The EPA guidelines recommend limiting mercury to 0.1 micrograms per kilogram of body weight per day, based on studies concerning a case of methlymercury poisoning in eighty-one Iraqi children. The FDA's guidelines recommend a maximum daily mercury intake of 0.4 micrograms per kilogram of body weight. There exist vaccines which contain up to 25 micrograms of mercury per 0.5 millilitre dosage, meaning a twenty-pound child (weighing 9.07 kilograms), following one of the dozens of vaccines he or she is required to take, would cause an overdose of nearly 28x according to the EPA's guidelines, and nearly 7x according to the FDA's guidelines.

Following the autism explosion (autism in the United States between 1992-1993 and 2000-2001 increased 644% amongst children on average), and congressman Frank Pallone's successful amendment to the FDA's reauthorization bill requiring the FDA to "compile a list of drugs and foods that contain intentionally introduced mercury compounds and [to] provide a quantitative and qualitative analysis of the mercury compounds in the list", many vaccine manufacturers began to significantly reduce or altogether remove thimerosal as a preservative. What is interesting to note is how mercury poisoning and autism have incredibly similar characteristics, such as psychiatric disorders, disturbances, abnormalities, motor disorders, cognitive impairments, immune dysfunctions, gastrointestinal problems, sensory impairments, epilepsy, and gender targeting. Interestingly enough, urine samples from autistic patients revealed high levels of sulfate despite low blood levels. Similarly, mercury and other heavy metals disturb the sulfate transport mechanism in the body, damaging sulfate retention (especially at the level of the kidneys) almost completely. This causes an excessive loss of sulfate.

But whether thimerosal is removed completely from vaccinations or not has no bearing on whether vaccinations should be legally mandated. Based on T. H. White's The Once and Future King, totalitarianism has come to be defined as, "everything not forbidden is compulsory". This is how I view the subject of mandatory vaccinations. Problems encountered with mandatory vaccinations not related to totalitarianism and other ideas revolving around population reduction methods would include accidents. One such example would come from early 2009, when an Illinois-based pharmaceutical company, Baxter International Inc., was caught shipping vaccinations to eighteen countries which contained live avian bird flu viruses. Remember, except for very few geographical exceptions regarding specific types of vaccines, you do not have to be vaccinated. Considering the great suspicion and distaste which exists within a growing majority of Americans toward Obama and his health care policies, it would take a massive effort to legally mandate vaccinations in the United States. Plus, Americans still have their guns, and I wish the best of luck to whomever attempts to vaccinate an angry individual with a gun. What always peaks my interest about mandatory vaccination debates is how the state would vaccinate individuals and their children who do not wish to be vaccinated. Would the state use the police force to tranquilize such individuals and temporarily kidnap their children? And for every vaccination people are encouraged to take by various public health agencies with differing guidelines? Hardly practical and nearly impossible to pull off against a well-armed public.

[LadyMidnight]

I think it's borderline negligence when parents don't have their kids vaccinated. Just because Oprah says that vaccinations cause autism doesn't mean it's true. Ever since this whole autism scare, a lot of parents have been skipping the vaccinations. Effect? More outbreaks of infectious diseases that once seemed to be controlled.

[fedr808]

if there is a law for vacinations, i think that it should be vaccines that are fairly common place like the tama flu. But the vaccine would have to either be free or severly subsidized, otehrwise itd just be vaccine companies controlling the price.

[swivel]

Autism didn't increase, Slysoon, the diagnosis rates for autism increased. That is: definitions changed, not ailments.

If you look at the same period of time, you'll see a plummeting rate of general language disorders. That which we used to call one thing, we now call "autism." Even high-functioning people, like those with Asperger's, are falling under the umbrella.

A study in Canada found that autism rates actually went down while thimerosal vaccines were being used. Not a statistically-significant amount, but the trend was down rather than up.

And a study in Britain showed that actual autism rates haven't changed, just our rates of diagnosis. This is a conspiracy theory that has been put to bed dozens of times. Please let it stay asleep.

[thinking]

I would chose not to vacinate

why ?

because this weakens the immune system

[WillNever]

I would chose not to vacinate

why ?

because this weakens the immune system

lol.

[Asguard]

if there is a law for vacinations, i think that it should be vaccines that are fairly common place like the tama flu. But the vaccine would have to either be free or severly subsidized, otehrwise itd just be vaccine companies controlling the price.

err they are? (At least in Australia)
or are you saying they shouldnt be paid out of the public purse just given away by the manifacturers? Possable if the goverment set up plants to do it but problematic

The only ones which are subsidised rather than free are the optional ones, for instance for me to get the Hep shots now i would have to pay for them because they wernt around when i was a child

[superstring01]

I recently got my Tetanus booster shot (which now comes with the Whooping Cough vaccine).

Mid October I'll get my Flue + H1N1 (two shots).

~String

[superstring01]

I would chose not to vacinate

why ?

because this weakens the immune system

What universe are you living in?

Tell that to all the millions of lives saved by the small pox vaccine or the polio vaccine.

~String

[LadyMidnight]

I would chose not to vacinate

why ?

because this weakens the immune system

There are arguments that say this, but there are also arguments that say that vaccinations STRENGTHEN the immune system. So much politics has come into science that you don't even know what to believe anymore.

I do know that many African children do not receive vaccinations. Their immune systems don't seem any stronger, right? Polio is still common in Africa, but not in America. American children get vaccinated against polio and we lose far fewer children to such illnesses. I make the connection in that way.