Free will, Ha! You’re the last to know “your decisions.

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Billy T, Apr 16, 2009.

  1. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    SUMMARY: The evidence just keeps piling up that free will BY YOUR CONSCIOUS SELF is an illusion.
    Probably humans, like much lessor animals, are just very complex biological machines. Here is a popular account of some recent findings:

    "... The electrical activity of the volunteer’s brain (his brainwave pattern, in common parlance) was recorded by the EEG from the button’s press. Each volunteer was given 30 seconds to read the puzzle and another 60 to 90 seconds to solve it. ...
    Some people worked it out; others did not. The significant point, though, was that the EEG predicted who would fall where. ... Moreover, the difference was noticeable up to eight seconds before the volunteer realised he had found the solution. Dr Sheth thinks this may be capturing the “transformational thought” (the light-bulb moment, as it were) in action, before the brain’s “owner” is consciously aware of it.

    There is a precedent for such observations of unconscious thought in action. In the 1980s Benjamin Libet of the University of California, San Francisco, showed that simple decisions, such as when to move a finger, are made about three-tenths of a second before the brain’s owner is aware of them, and subsequent work has found that the roots of such decisions can be seen up to ten seconds before they become conscious. But this is the first occasion that such a long lead time has been shown for more complex {problem solving} thought processes.

    This finding, combined with Libet’s, {suggests} conscious thought, it seems, does not solve problems.* Instead, unconscious processing happens in the background and only delivers the answer to consciousness once it has been arrived at. ..."

    From popular account at: http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13489722

    Can anyone find original papers on the web? I will look again for Libet's now that I know name is not Libbet, as I have been posting for years form memory. (I read several of his more than 25 years ago.) Here is how he made his observation, during brain surgery:

    He had brain surface contacting electrodes (on the pre-motor cortex, as I recall) for much more localized than EEG signals and showed that the decision to push a button "at random time of patient's choosing" was made about 1/4 second before the patient consciously decided. (Patient watched a faster than normal sweep second hand of a clock, and soon after consciously deciding reported where it was at the moment when he consciously decided.) Libet knew from the change in the EEG that the patient had decided to push the button, ~0.25 sec before the patient did.

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    *Years ago, I discovered that when I could not see any path to a solution, it was a good idea to think about the problem when in bed trying to go to sleep. Quite often the next morning I had at least an "outside of the box" approach to the problem. No one knows why we sleep. I have, in prior posts, suggested that part of the reason may be that the logic of dreams is more free. Dreams do have their own rules and logic. For example, time is easily displaced in dreams, and differently for different people in the dream, but you are never doing something to yourself, such as teaching yourself to ride a bike. I.e. there are never two of you together at different stages in your life, but in a dream A TEENAGE you could watch your OLDER sister being born or your own funeral.

    Note, however, that "conscious thought" certainly does solve some problems when manipulation of symbols is used (like in algebra). Consciousness may be only about 3000 years old. See:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_Consciousness_in_the_Breakdown_of_the_Bicameral_Mind (Title of book by Julian James.)

    I have read James's book. - He is very knowledgable in many areas and makes quite a good case for his POV, IMHO, but I still tend to think him wrong. I am very frugal, but this book I bought. Everyone interested in consciousness or why men seem to naturally believe in the existence of God, should at least read this Wiki article in which Richard Dawkins states: "It is one of those books that is either complete rubbish or a work of consummate genius, nothing in between! "
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 16, 2009
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  3. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    The difference of 8 second is the time taken by the brain to interpret the solution back into a human language. Our brain carries way too much of information and only a minor percentage is translated into any language which we consider conscious. Since we haven't learned to identify brain signals as it is, we need the signals to be translated into the language which is stored in our brain memory. It takes a bit of time.
     
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  5. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    That is certainly a possibility, but would only confirm my point that your consciousness is the last to know what your brain has decided. I.e. certainly no conscious free will would exist. Or in other words you consciously do not decide anything. For example: It is an illusion that you consciously chose to cross the street to walk in the shade or to buy vanilla instead of chocolate ice-cream, etc.

    Dan Dennet, in his book Consciousness Explained (most presumptuous title I know of) put forth the view that consciousness is the constantly revised story we tell ourselves. This story is mainly in our mother tongue language.

    Norm Chomsky suggests that human's are endowed by their genes to have facility for language and speaks of a "deep language" which is universal. Our surface language (like Chinese or German etc.) is learned but limited in its structure. (Things like how statement is converted into question, & how pronouns in imbedded clause get their antecedents from the higher structure of the sentence, etc. are all an inter-related set of fixed choices, limited by the possible grammars of the deep language of humans and set by our exposure as child to some surface language.)

    Thus it is possible as you suggest that we solve problems in the deep language and then translate the solution to our particular surface language or consciousness’s story language, as Dennet would have it.

    However, I think 8 seconds is too long to be only that. I suspect that in humans* at least, the decisions and solutions to problem are subjected to some subconscious analysis and evaluation in the frontal lobes, possibly rejected and a new solution is developed, etc. For example, to problem of someone in store taking the last of an item you had decided to take, just in front of you the first "solution" might be "kill him and then take it". It is well known that a lot of frontal lobe activity is related to evaluation of the consequences (acceptability) of various actions. I.e. I suspect that much of the 8 seconds is working out the details and suitability of the solution before transfer of it to consciousness, which can then have its "eureka moment" and think it found the solution or had the idea. Not only is conscious choice an illusion, but even conscious thinking may be too. But again, I note that is not the case when some manipulation of written symbols is used (as in algebra or formal logic) to find some solution or answer.

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    *It would be interesting to see the EEG of some lesser animal, which has not been "socialized," but can solve some problems. I think many are conscious (and without any surface language, so I doubt Dennet's POV) yet they too may solve problems before their consciousness learns of the solution and act on it. However, as they are not "socialized," they may not need 8 seconds of unconscious review.
     
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  7. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    There is no free will. Our brain works in its own specific manner it was meant to be working as designed by nature. Only a dumbwit would imagine that we have free will. Deep language can be there but its not supported by genes. Cases of Feral children would explain that better.

    8 seconds is not at all that long. If you count the seconds a human take before he understand the question in a human language formed by another human being, you would know that results are decoded more faster. Because brain takes more time to decode another persons form of phrasing words and forming sentences into its own code than decoding its own code into sentences which is a direct mechanism.
     
  8. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Only a dumbwit would imagine we have freewill?
    Not true at all: since, according you, we don't have free will then anyone who thinks we do has no other choice.
    Hardly their fault.

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  9. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    They don't think because they found so. They shaped their beliefs based on previously available information without cross checking. That alone qualifies them to be a fool.
     
  10. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    You haven't thought it through at all have you?
    If there's no free will then no-one makes ANY choices - the "fools" don't do cross-checking because they can't.
    And if they could they still wouldn't have a different opinion.
    You can't have it both ways.
    So the "reason" you consider them to be fools isn't because you have (supposed) intellectual superiority, it's because you're wired to so believe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2009
  11. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Read the article in the economist - you will see that the 8 seconds has nothing to do with understanding the problem. It is the time between when the solution is found by your brain and your consciousness learns of it.

    also both oil and the observer should note that this delay only destroys the concept of conscious free will, who knows how your brain is deciding? making choices? I have an old post* that show how genuine free will may exist and yet not be a violation of physics. (I tend to think it does not, but but it could if it is not a conscious free will.)

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    *See: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=905778&postcount=66
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 18, 2009
  12. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    Choices you talking about were never choices in the first place. Your choices are limited. You are not free to choose whatever you want to. Your brain is constrained to choose between options a, b, c, d and may be maximum 25 different options. That's about it. Then brain ran out of choices and have to pick one of it. And all these options are based on brains knowledge of your own capabilities and your past memories and its consequences. That's why two people cannot make same choices when it comes to life. You can sure make same choices in a game or in school exam which is man made.

    Now since we have quite a lot of options(most of which are not even conscious), it might appear like we have free will. But reality is that constraints are set inside the brain and its never made conscious so you wont even know that you don't have much of a choice.
     
  13. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Any evidence for those figures or are you just making them up?

    That's a supposition.
     
  14. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    I read it. I agree with what it says. have done this experiment long ago and found the same results. What i was saying is that the delay between brains decision and the time taken for a human to generate the output is the time required for translation from brain signals to human language. We can consider the simple case of driving or even walking. Our eyes see way too much of information than we are actually conscious about. Brain is processing every bit of information, calculating the distances and speed in its own fashion and controlling our hands and legs to move accordingly. In between we can even talk about the movie we saw last night and still drive. There is so much of calculations, communication between brain and different body parts are happening all at the same time. And we are not conscious about most of it. Because none of that gets processed into any form of language since its not required. Imagine doing the same walking or driving in a conscious manner by talking to yourself or recording every single move of yours. You can see the delay in seconds and how much it slows you down.
     
  15. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    You wouldn't have asked me if you ever cared to sit back and spend a few weeks thinking deep into your own brains working mechanism. Those are essential homework every human must do in order to understand themselves.

    I find it rather silly when people ask questions about things they already know. You just need to sit back and think. I know. I am aware of the fact that current generation kids enjoy reading it in books or watching it in discovery channel. Information can be purchased. But not knowledge.

    No its not. You wont understand a single bit of it unless you spend a few hours thinking.
     
  16. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    In other words you can't provide any data.
     
  17. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    Why is that you don't want to think on your own?
     
  18. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    Why is it you can never actually back up your statements?
     
  19. theobserver is a simple guy... Registered Senior Member

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    With what?
     
  20. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    11,888
    With actual supporting evidence.
    Or are you exempt for some reason from the forum rules?
     
  21. Cannon Registered Senior Member

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    So, do you talk to yourself in your head? Can you hold a debate with yourself without speaking a word? Can you write on a chalk board and do math without having chalk or that board?
     
  22. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    11,888
    That's addressed to...?
     
  23. Cannon Registered Senior Member

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    Starting debate. Answer yes or no.

    Now, it's true that one does not know what their next thought will be until its their, but the brain already has it ready for your comprehension.

    Is it possible to spike a EEG via metal thought, this is the mental thought that produces Visual stimulation such as what one would see in their dreams.
     

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