Fat People's View on Skinny

[Mickmeister]

Why is it that fat people often think overweight people are normal sized? For instance, I used to be morbidly obese. I lost a lot of weight down to overweight status and stayed there for a while before losing the rest down to a normal size. At the point I was considered overweight and not obese, many of my friends, at the time were fat, would often tell me that I was normal sized, when in reality, I was not. They kept telling me to not lose anymore weight. After that, I continued to lose until I was a size 32, at which point they all told me I was too skinny while most other people thought that I was normal sized. I have seen this same instance happen to others also. My wife also did the same thing I did and lost weight the responsible way, yet she was told the same lines.

[Cellar_Door]

To an extent, the terms are relative.

[Roman]

To an extent, the terms are relative.

To an extent.

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

[mikenostic]

To an extent, the terms are relative.
What terms? If you're fuckin fat, you're fuckin fat.

[mikenostic]

To an extent.

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

Jesus. That looks like four loaves of dough baking around twine; like four cans of Hungry Jack biscuits were busted open with a sledgehammer.

[mikenostic]

-stop eating so fucking much
-get off your fat ass and do some sort of exercise
-no one feels sorry for you
-fat is not attractive (regardless of what your equally fat partner says)
-fat is not healthy

[MacGyver1968]

Dude...if you can't tell whether your wearing bikini bottoms or not, it's time for a diet. :)

[CutsieMarie89]

They kept telling me to not lose anymore weight. After that, I continued to lose until I was a size 32, at which point they all told me I was too skinny while most other people thought that I was normal sized.

size 32 as in the waist of your pants?

[takandjive]

I have fat friends, and oddly enough, know two of those women from the photo. They're both adult models.

I frankly get a little sick of fat bigotry. If they're taking care of themselves, WHO CARES?

Before I hear shit about, "oh, you're a fat bitch," : I'm a size two or four depending on the cut.

Yes, some people like fat partners.

Yes, it's just easier for some people to stay thin.

Yes, some people just prefer Twinkies over rock climbing.

Sure, I'll laugh at a fat joke, but I'm tired of just the seething hatred.

[Repo Man]

My mother is overweight, and has been to a degree for most of her adult life. But it has been a downward spiral for about the last twenty years.

Nearing the age of seventy, she had to have her gall bladder removed years ago. She has high blood pressure, type two diabetes, her knees ankles and feet are shot, and she is in more or less constant pain because of them. She is very nearly immobile, has to struggle to get from her house to her car, and has to use one of those electric carts at the grocery store. She cannot get a decent night's sleep because of sleep apnea. There isn't a single medical problem she has that wouldn't either be eliminated or greatly reduced in severity if she were 100 Lbs. lighter. She often has to be helped to get up out of chairs, and broke two chairs at my brother's house last time she visited.

But being overweight is no big deal, right?

[domesticated om]

To an extent.

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

Screw being the wingman for this one, Abort mission and return to base.

[Repo Man]

Screw being the wingman for this one, Abort mission and return to base.

Nothing like a graphic reminder that there are worse things than being single.

[John99]

test

[Absane]

To an extent.

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/189/75254728ga2.png

But in response to the OP's concern about being overweight and the social pressure to convince the OP that he's healthy, I understand. For years everyone was brainwashed into clothing size, BMI, weight loss, etc... as markers of "health." People don't understand that size 32 waist doesn't mean you aren't fat. You can be size 32 waist at 25% body fat... that's unhealthy (for a male, anyway).

Toting around excess bodyfat isn't very healthy, regardless of bodily shape, weight, and general appearance.

As for those apologizing for obese people... why? They need to put the fork down. If a fat fuck eats 4,000 calories a day and sits on his ass all day, he needs to eat less and quit parking his car as close to the grocery store as possible. All that mental effect he or she expends to find the closest parking space doesn't burn any extra calories.

Now, I'm only talking about the majority of fat fucks and not those that are carrying extra fat due to medical conditions that were not the result of bad habits.

[John99]

seems that for women there is always an excuse for being fat but men dont have that luxury.

[Randwolf]

To an extent.

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

:eek: Personally, I think this is one of those pics that according to forum rules are supposed to be linked to and accompanied by some sort of warning... :eek:

[codanblad]

My mother is overweight, and has been to a degree for most of her adult life. But it has been a downward spiral for about the last twenty years.

Nearing the age of seventy, she had to have her gall bladder removed years ago. She has high blood pressure, type two diabetes, her knees ankles and feet are shot, and she is in more or less constant pain because of them. She is very nearly immobile, has to struggle to get from her house to her car, and has to use one of those electric carts at the grocery store. She cannot get a decent night's sleep because of sleep apnea. There isn't a single medical problem she has that wouldn't either be eliminated or greatly reduced in severity if she were 100 Lbs. lighter. She often has to be helped to get up out of chairs, and broke two chairs at my brother's house last time she visited.

But being overweight is no big deal, right?

my grandma and mum are obese, have gall blader problems and sleep apnea too. its a pretty lame way to spend your life.

[draqon]

This is the corrupt American culture...were with each year consecutively fat percentage increases and climbs higher and higher. And fat has become part of the culture.

[codanblad]

This is the corrupt American culture...were with each year consecutively fat percentage increases and climbs higher and higher. And fat has become part of the culture.

oh wow each year consecutively? i would have thought you'd pick the years at random. are you esl?

[Mickmeister]

Here is another good example. I love to cycle (bicycle). I commute to work as much as I can without driving to keep myself in shape. With a few exceptions, the ones that usually make snide remarks and are rude are fat people.

[superstring01]

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

Oh, yeah. That's sexy!!!

~String

[mikenostic]

My mother is overweight, and has been to a degree for most of her adult life. But it has been a downward spiral for about the last twenty years.


But being overweight is no big deal, right?

Are you handing out frequent flyer miles with this obvious guilt trip you're trying to send everyone on? Really?

Anyway, I don't think anyone on here (at least not me) is directing our condescention towards obese people that are obese through no fault of their own. My coworker's wife is quite obese, but she was also in an auto accident that fucked her back up and took away some of her mobility...very little she can do about that.
I'm directing my condescention to the lazy fat people. The fat people who are fat only for the reason that they can't seem to get up from the PS3 or PC or TV long enough to get any exercise in.
Those four land manatees that are in the picture above seem to have no problem with being fat...fair enough, they lose their right to get butt hurt when someone makes fun of them for weighing more than my motorcycle.

[draqon]

Here is another good example. I love to cycle (bicycle). I commute to work as much as I can without driving to keep myself in shape. With a few exceptions, the ones that usually make snide remarks and are rude are fat people.

well than I am an exception...or maybe is it because I am Russian...

[mikenostic]

well than I am an exception...or maybe is it because I am Russian...

W T F does that have to do with being fat?

Can you stay on topic at least a little bit there SAM?

[draqon]

W T F does that have to do with being fat?

Can you stay on topic at least a little bit there SAM?

I am not SAM.

Being a Russian makes me from a totally different culture where I can see the American culture as it is, pure chunk to analyze from an unbiased perspective.

when will these people realize I am joking...gawddd

[mikenostic]

I am not SAM.
Might as well be w/all your asinine posts and response posts that have nothing to do with what you're responding to.

Being a Russian makes me from a totally different culture where I can see the American culture as it is, pure chunk to analyze from an unbiased perspective.

when will these people realize I am joking...gawddd
Yeah, with the Czars, Bolsheviks, Communism and now partial anarchy ran by gangs and thugs. Every state that started as part of the U.S. is still part of the U.S. How about all the 'Socialist Republics' that were part of the USSR? The U.S is still one country. The USSR isn't. Nice culture you guys have over there. :rolleyes:

[Absane]

I am not SAM.

Being a Russian makes me from a totally different culture where I can see the American culture as it is, pure chunk to analyze from an unbiased perspective.

How does a different perspective make you unbiased? Does your "OMG I'm teh Russianz guy" perspective make your homophobic views unbiased?

when will these people realize I am joking...gawddd

Then shut the fuck up. Your jokes aren't funny in the least bit.

[superstring01]

I am not SAM.

Being a Russian makes me from a totally different culture where I can see the American culture as it is, pure chunk to analyze from an unbiased perspective.

when will these people realize I am joking...gawddd

Yeah because you're so cultured and intelligent (as can be judged by your brilliant posts) that you can take that stance. Where do you live? Yeah. The USA. Take a trip back to your homeland and let us know how that works out.

~String

[takandjive]

Those four land manatees that are in the picture above seem to have no problem with being fat...fair enough, they lose their right to get butt hurt when someone makes fun of them for weighing more than my motorcycle.

1) You're looking WAY worse than anyone in that picture, making an ass of yourself.

2) Nope, you don't get to make fun of someone publicly just for being fat when they haven't done dick to you. I think it's just pretty lame to mock someone in public for how they look. Everyone feels bad enough about how they look already, to include me. If someone talked about me the way some people on here are talking about these girls, I'd be deeply hurt. I have aspects of my appearance that I could fix, but not without a lot of work, and I shouldn't get flack over that. They shouldn't either. Do you like it when people make fun of how you look?

You're NOT a supersized person. You don't have the mobility limitations. You don't go through the embarassment and struggles these people go through. I've been friends with people who couldn't go certain places because of chairs. They have enough degradation without people being assholes.

Now, I think if you have a partner and she gains 300 lbs. over the course of a three year marriage, it's reasonable to go, "I'm not attracted to you, and your body will never be the same, Betty. I liked you because we used to have great sex and go skateboarding together. These days you just do a 720 hoolihan onto the couch and grind down some Twinkies. This will not work for me. Bye!"

What you don't get to do is say that no one else finds these women attractive and insult them. YOU don't find them attractive. This doesn't mean you should be a bastard about it. Mike, I like you, and I consider you a friend of sorts, but you're just wrong here.

[codanblad]

Yeah, with the Czars, Bolsheviks, Communism and now partial anarchy ran by gangs and thugs. Every state that started as part of the U.S. is still part of the U.S. How about all the 'Socialist Republics' that were part of the USSR? The U.S is still one country. The USSR isn't. Nice culture you guys have over there. :rolleyes:

Russian ballet, music such as Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov, vodka, those dolls with more dolls in them. sif they don't have culture. in world war 2 they weren't pussies either.

The US enslaved a race then went to war with itself not that long ago and was founded by people running away from British persecution (or so i hear). You guys can't even establish a free public health system. get off your high horse.

Insulting each other's countries is just sad, lets leave it at this.

[mikenostic]

1

You're NOT a supersized person. You don't have the mobility limitations. You don't go through the embarassment and struggles these people go through. I've been friends with people who couldn't go certain places because of chairs. They have enough degradation without people being assholes.
No I don't.
I'm sorry but if you are just a person with a slow metabolism, and you get fat solely due to your own lethargy, I have no sympathy for you. Period. You aren't fat due to situations beyond your control. You are fat because you are too fuckin lazy to keep yourself in shape.
If you're fat, and I know you personally, and you're fat solely due to your laziness, do not expect any leeway from me.
Now, if you're a friend and you are obese due to circumstances beyond your control, I'll go out of my way to help you if you need it.
I have a better grasp on the obesity issue than you think.


Now, I think if you have a partner and she gains 300 lbs. over the course of a three year marriage, it's reasonable to go, "I'm not attracted to you, and your body will never be the same, Betty. I liked you because we used to have great sex and go skateboarding together. These days you just do a 720 hoolihan onto the couch and grind down some Twinkies. This will not work for me. Bye!"
And believe me, I will. (unless of course I somehow just let myself turn into a fat slob, then I wouldn't have any room to bitch).

What you don't get to do is say that no one else finds these women attractive and insult them. YOU don't find them attractive.
You want me to start a poll thread with that picture in it just to see who does find them attractive? There will be only a scant few, if that.

This doesn't mean you should be a bastard about it. Mike, I like you, and I consider you a friend of sorts, but you're just wrong here.
What part about 'I'm not directing this to the obese people who are obese due to circumstances beyond their control' escaped your perception?
My coworker Andy's wife, has my utmost respect. She makes every effort to utilize all the mobility she does have. She is not fat due to her own laziness.
Also, I have a huge respect for overweight people whenever I see one out walking/speedwalking or running. It shows me that they are making a concerted effort to keeping in shape.

I'm also not talking about slightly chunky or thick people. I'm talking about the 'OMFG, how do you get around like that?' obese. People get that fat for one of two reasons: 1. medical issue beyond their control 2. too lazy to put forth the extra effort into staying somewhat not-obese.

While I am lucky to have a fast metabolism unlike a lot of people. It does even out: I have ADHD and I have to put forth way more effort than non ADHD patients in order to focus on something long enough to get it done. If I don't, I don't finish what I started. But guess what, I don't hide behind my medical condition to keep people off my back or to acquire a free ride of sorts.
I also do not expect any sympathy for my condition.

[mikenostic]

Russian ballet, music such as Tchaikovsky and Rachmaninov, vodka, those dolls with more dolls in them. sif they don't have culture. in world war 2 they weren't pussies either.

The US enslaved a race then went to war with itself not that long ago and was founded by people running away from British persecution (or so i hear). You guys can't even establish a free public health system. get off your high horse.
You can kiss my ass.
1. I wasn't directing this at YOU.
2. I can't stand it when someone makes a Sam-esque type comment/insult towards the U.S. when their own country has more than its issues.


Insulting each other's countries is just sad, lets leave it at this.
Then maybe you need to address the troll otherwise known as draqon about this, not me.

[Anti-Flag]

To an extent.

http://www.zanyvideos.com/uploads/fat_woman_in_bikinis.jpg

Just the way I like 'em. Half woman - half bouncy castle.

[Orleander]

....If you're fat, and I know you personally, and you're fat solely due to your laziness, do not expect any leeway from me.....

what do you mean by leeway? :confused:
If they are fat because they are lazy you get to verbally assault them? Why would you even care?

[takandjive]

No I don't.
I'm sorry but if you are just a person with a slow metabolism, and you get fat solely due to your own lethargy, I have no sympathy for you. Period. You aren't fat due to situations beyond your control. You are fat because you are too fuckin lazy to keep yourself in shape.
If you're fat, and I know you personally, and you're fat solely due to your laziness, do not expect any leeway from me.

Agreed. I don't grant the fat people in my life "pity." I don't think they want it. However, just because someone doesn't have the body I want them to have doesn't make them lazy. It means they have different priorities than me. I don't care that my gynocologist weighs 300 lbs. I care that she's a great professional. She went to med school. She's not all that lazy. Lots of fat people aren't lazy. Not exercising or overeating are not related to being lazy.

Now, if you're a friend and you are obese due to circumstances beyond your control, I'll go out of my way to help you if you need it.
I have a better grasp on the obesity issue than you think.

I don't think most supersized people are that size because they decided it would be a good idea to down three whole deepfried turkeys for dinner. And maybe not all fat people want help being less fat.

You want me to start a poll thread with that picture in it just to see who does find them attractive? There will be only a scant few, if that.

Most people aren't going to admit they're turned on by anything outside of the mainstream. It's like getting men to admit they like being spanked. I also know there are a good number of men who are fat admirers and would rather have a significantly heavier partner than me.

What part about 'I'm not directing this to the obese people who are obese due to circumstances beyond their control' escaped your perception?
My coworker Andy's wife, has my utmost respect. She makes every effort to utilize all the mobility she does have. She is not fat due to her own laziness.
Also, I have a huge respect for overweight people whenever I see one out walking/speedwalking or running. It shows me that they are making a concerted effort to keeping in shape.

You don't know why someone's hugely fat. What's the wrong reason to be fat? Liking food to much? Having an eating disorder? Having sleep apnea? If we can't find a reason, does that mean there's not a reason? Think about this: In a world that stigmatizes fat people, who would CHOOSE IT?

[Mickmeister]

WOW! This thread digressed very fast!

[Roman]

Sure, I'll laugh at a fat joke, but I'm tired of just the seething hatred.

It's more like queasy disgust.

Nope, you don't get to make fun of someone publicly just for being fat when they haven't done dick to you.

Sure he does.
He just did.
About half the people in this thread already have.

[Orleander]

....You don't know why someone's hugely fat...

agreed.
There are people that gain weight due to medication, knee/back injury, etc.
If someone sees an obese person in a motorized scooter, do they think "lazy ass" or 'injured'?

[Orleander]

...Sure he does.
He just did.
About half the people in this thread already have.

yeah, but why is he angry about it?

[mikenostic]

what do you mean by leeway? :confused:
If they are fat because they are lazy you get to verbally assault them? Why would you even care?

Leeway = not taking any pot shots at them/not picking on them for being fat because of sheer laziness

WOW! This thread digressed very fast!
But it's at least staying on topic somewhat!

Most people aren't going to admit they're turned on by anything outside of the mainstream.
I'm not most people. There are several things outside the mainstream that turn me on.


It's like getting men to admit they like being spanked. I also know there are a good number of men who are fat admirers and would rather have a significantly heavier partner than me.
I like a good spanking from a girl every now and then.
Yeah, my friend Kyle is like that. Doesn't mean I don't rag on him relentlessly for having such low standards.


Just because one's opinion differs from mine, and they are entitled to it, doesn't mean their opinion isn't wrong, asinine or stupid. :D

[takandjive]

WOW! This thread digressed very fast!

I think it's progressed to an open and honest discussion.

It's more like queasy disgust.



Sure he does.
He just did.
About half the people in this thread already have.

There's nothing disgusting about fat people.

Doesn't make it right, Roman.
agreed.
There are people that gain weight due to medication, knee/back injury, etc.
If someone sees an obese person in a motorized scooter, do they think "lazy ass" or 'injured'?

Exactly. Did you see that special on TLC about the lady with the 200 lb tumor on her belly? Yikes.

[Orleander]

....Exactly. Did you see that special on TLC about the lady with the 200 lb tumor on her belly? Yikes.

yes. I'm surprised she lived.

[takandjive]

Yes, but we're not talking about your desire for hot, hot femdom action, Mike. :p

[mikenostic]

yeah, but why is he angry about it?
Ok I have to ask,
What makes you think you have the ability (and you really don't) to read any type of emotion whatsoever in any post that any person makes on an internet chat forum? Honestly?

[Orleander]

I think people make fun of fat people to make themselves feel better. Maybe because its one of the few prejudices that is acceptable.

The obese don't hurt me, so why become a sanctimonious prick about it??

[Orleander]

Ok I have to ask,
What makes you think you have the ability (and you really don't) to read any type of emotion whatsoever in any post that any person makes on an internet chat forum? Honestly?

whatever:rolleyes:

[mikenostic]

I think people make fun of fat people to make themselves feel better. Maybe because its one of the few prejudices that is acceptable.
I make fun of fat people who are fat by their own account.

The obese don't hurt me, so why become a sanctimonious prick about it??
No, you just like to be a sanctimonious prick to people who care about their pets as much as they would a human. You also like to be a condescending sanctimonious prick to any guy who would dare stand up for himself to any 'Almight Vagina Owner' :rolleyes:

[mikenostic]

whatever:rolleyes:

That's a great answer that reflects so well on your character.

[Orleander]

I make fun of fat people who are fat by their own account. ...

and how do you know how they got obese? Do you ask them? "hey, fatso, did you eat too much or do you have a back injury"

....No, you just like to be a sanctimonious prick to people who care about their pets as much as they would a human. You also like to be a condescending sanctimonious prick to any guy who would dare stand up for himself to any 'Almight Vagina Owner' :rolleyes:

whoa....what does that have to do with obesity? I think you are carrying around some unresolved anger there :shrug:.

[Orleander]

That's a great answer that reflects so well on your character.

at least I have character. Thank you

[Absane]

agreed.
There are people that gain weight due to medication, knee/back injury, etc.

http://www.oftwominds.com/photos07/global-BMI.gif

Assuming all things equal among these countries (like the rate of demobilizing injuries not related to body weight is the same across all countries, etc.), America has a major obesity problem. What is it that Japan does differently than the US? I guess the US is full of people genetically predisposed to obesity and that all the other obese folk are fat because of injuries and drugs (/sarcasm)

I think that that the rates we see from Japan to, I don't know, France represent the normal rate of obesity we might see that is caused by things outside one's control. Based on this, for every 3 fatties we see in the US, 2 are fat by faults of their own.

If someone sees an obese person in a motorized scooter, do they think "lazy ass" or 'injured'?

Most of the time, lazy ass. I work near a large grocery store. I see many obese people waddle to the scooters after parking in the handicap spot. Many of them probably take the scooter because walking for a long period of time (I guess more than 90 seconds) causes joint pain due to excess fat being toted around.

[Orleander]

[QUOTE=Absane;2224972.... I see many obese people waddle to the scooters after parking in the handicap spot. Many of them probably take the scooter because walking for a long period of time (I guess more than 90 seconds) causes joint pain due to excess fat being toted around.[/QUOTE]

so they have bad joints because of the weight? They aren't fat because of bad joints and limited mobility?

I guess I don't know a strangers medical history well enough to know that.

[Roman]

There's nothing disgusting about fat people.

http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/%7Eloewen/fat-woman.jpg

Doesn't make it right, Roman.

You mean it makes you feel bad.

[Roman]

I think people make fun of fat people to make themselves feel better.

Why else would you ever do anything?

"Oh yeah, I'm eating these cookies because it makes me feel horrible"

"I just love blow jobs because they make me want to puke."

Of course we mock people because it makes us feel good! It's called utility!

[Orleander]

I have that 'eeewwww' response. It doesn't make me angry or judgemental though.

[Orleander]

...Of course we mock people because it makes us feel good! It's called utility!

what do you mean?
Why not make fun of Down's Syndrome people then?

[mikenostic]

and how do you know how they got obese? Do you ask them? "hey, fatso, did you eat too much or do you have a back injury"
I dont' go around haphazardly insulting every fat person I know...let alone any fat person I don't know. While I may be a bit condescending towards fat people who are fat by their own fault, I'm by no means rude or disrespectful to them.

whoa....what does that have to do with obesity? I think you are carrying around some unresolved anger there :shrug:.
It doesn't. It has to do with your high horse statement about not being a sanctimonious prick to fat people, yet you turn around and are quite a sanctimonious prick to others. It was about double standards, not obesity.

[Roman]

what do you mean?

www.wikipedia.org

Why not make fun of Down's Syndrome people then?

You mean you don't?

[Orleander]

... While I may be a bit condescending towards fat people who are fat by their own fault, I'm by no means rude or disrespectful to them.....

How is being condescending not rude?
How do you know how they got fat? If they are eating a slice of pizza do you assume they got fat by eating?

I just don't understand how you know how a person became fat.

[Roman]

While I may be a bit condescending towards fat people who are fat by their own fault, I'm by no means rude or disrespectful to them.

So you're a jerk to them behind their back?
Niiiice.

It doesn't. It has to do with your high horse statement about not being a sanctimonious prick to fat people, yet you turn around and are quite a sanctimonious prick to others. It was about double standards, not obesity.

Fail.
Work backwards a little bit to her premises. Then I think you'll see her conclusions follow.

[Orleander]

www.wikipedia.org...

ummm, yeah. I have no idea.



...You mean you don't?

I don't think so. I might. Does draqon or Mike have Down's Syndrome???

[takandjive]

^5

That was good. Sorry, Mikey. :D

[Roman]

copypasta from the wikipage on utility:

is a measure of the relative satisfaction from, or desirability of, consumption of various goods and services. Given this measure, one may speak meaningfully of increasing or decreasing utility, and thereby explain economic behavior in terms of attempts to increase one's utility. For illustrative purposes, changes in utility are sometimes expressed in units called utils.

The doctrine of utilitarianism saw the maximization of utility as a moral criterion for the organization of society. According to utilitarians, such as Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) and John Stuart Mill (1806-1876), society should aim to maximize the total utility of individuals, aiming for "the greatest happiness for the greatest number". Another theory forwarded by John Rawls (1921-2002) would have society maximize the utility of the individual receiving the minimum amount of utility.

In neoclassical economics, rationality is precisely defined in terms of imputed utility-maximizing behavior under economic constraints. As a hypothetical behavioral measure, utility does not require attribution of mental states suggested by "happiness", "satisfaction", etc.

Utility can be applied by economists in such constructs as the indifference curve, which plots the combination of commodities that an individual or a society would accept to maintain a given level of satisfaction. Individual utility and social utility can be construed as the dependent variable of a utility function (such as an indifference curve map) and a social welfare function respectively. When coupled with production or commodity constraints, these functions can represent Pareto efficiency, such as illustrated by Edgeworth boxes in contract curves. Such efficiency is a central concept of welfare economics.

[mikenostic]

How is being condescending not rude?
How do you know how they got fat? If they are eating a slice of pizza do you assume they got fat by eating?
My bad! Condescending isn't the right term for it.
I should have said, I hold a quiet disdain for them.

I just don't understand how you know how a person became fat.
I don't. That's why I'm always polite.


So you're a jerk to them behind their back?
Niiiice.
Only the ones who I know are fat due to laziness. You'll never catch me badmouthing a fat person that I know is fat due to issues beyond their control.
However, I'm the type of person that will say anything to a person's face that I say behind their back. A backbiter I am not.
Exception being in a corporate work environment. I would like to stay out of HR's office.

[mikenostic]

I don't think so. I might. Does draqon or Mike have Down's Syndrome???
You tell us. You seem to think you know all about a person from their posts alone. :rolleyes:

I would ask you if you have Down's Syndrome, but that would be a major insult to the Down's Syndrome patients that I know.

[Absane]

so they have bad joints because of the weight? They aren't fat because of bad joints and limited mobility?

Even if that is the cause, excess body fat will cause even more joint pain. It's a vicious cycle that can be ended only one way: eat less.

The logic for weight loss (and ultimetly fat loss) is very simple: calories out - calories in > 0 \Rightarrowweight loss.

If they just eat less, even without exercise, they will lose weight. It will probably stop when they are around 18-20% body fat, but they will no longer be obese. It will then be easier on the joints to exercise.

Not that I know what severe joint pain feels like... but my right ankle fucking kills me from time to time due to an injury I had on a skateboard back when I was 16. I have a compressed disc in my lower back and a herniated disc in my neck. My right arm and right leg go numb sometimes. I can't swing a baseball bat without experiencing strong shooting pains in my left shoulder.

None of those stop me from doing anything that would cause those pains. The solution to weak and painful joints is to make them stronger. Also, some people need learn to develop mental toughness.

[Orleander]

....I don't. That's why I'm always polite...


who here believes that??? :bugeye:

[Orleander]

...I would ask you if you have Down's Syndrome, but that would be a major insult to the Down's Syndrome patients that I know.

ah, look at that. Mike made a funny. good for you. :thumbsup:

[mikenostic]

who here believes that??? :bugeye:

On here, I would hope nobody. Here I'm not worried about my job or having to beat the shit out of someone in the process of defending myself after they tried to start some crap due to me being an ass.

[mikenostic]

ah, look at that. Mike made a funny. good for you. :thumbsup:

Who's joking?

[Roman]

Can we get back to making fun of fat people?

[Roman]

Here's a little something for takandjive:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff303/rhysaustin1992/Fat.jpg

[Absane]

Can we get back to making fun of fat people?

http://www.bitchersmound.com/charter/fat_kid.jpg

[takandjive]

Roman, are you trying to seduce me?

[draqon]

Roman, are you trying to seduce me?

yes he is.

[draqon]

what do you mean?
Why not make fun of Down's Syndrome people then?

I do not have a Down's Syndrome.

Don't insult me lady. I am not insulting you, so keep off me, as well.

[mikenostic]

Can we get back to making fun of fat people?

Yes we can.

Now let's say we have a fat person who is fat because he/she is lazy. They don't care if they are fat and are perfectly happy being fat...
Why should I feel bad about making fun of them if they are happy the way they are?

[mikenostic]

http://www.bitchersmound.com/charter/fat_kid.jpg

Any fat advocates on here gunna tell me that those two are fat due to medical reasons? :rolleyes:

[draqon]

Any fat advocates on here gunna tell me that those two are fat due to medical reasons? :rolleyes:

they might be Mike. I mean this sort of things is not just a habit...it has to do with low metabolism as well as genes.

Yes they are not really fighting against it, not much strength of will.

[Roman]

Roman, are you trying to seduce me?

Maybe. (http://msp303.photobucket.com/albums/nn159/ciaranskinner/naked_fat_man.jpg)

[draqon]

Yes we can.

Now let's say we have a fat person who is fat because he/she is lazy. They don't care if they are fat and are perfectly happy being fat...
Why should I feel bad about making fun of them if they are happy the way they are?

I dont think any fat person is truly deeply inside happy of being fat.

[Roman]

I dont think any person is truly deeply inside happy.

Fix'd that for you.

[draqon]

Fix'd that for you.

well I do not agree with how you fixed it. I am right now truly deeply happy...well not fully. But happy.

[S.A.M.]

Why not? Many people are happy. I'm happy. Even though I rant and rave at things that bother me, I feel good about myself

<I'm going home tra-la-la-la-la>

[Roman]

Cause then you'd sit under a Boddhi tree all day and not do anything.

[takandjive]

Yes we can.

Now let's say we have a fat person who is fat because he/she is lazy. They don't care if they are fat and are perfectly happy being fat...
Why should I feel bad about making fun of them if they are happy the way they are?

For the same reason you shouldn't make fun of a relatively heterosexual female that chooses to have sex with women with a male partner. Because someone's lifestyle choices that don't hurt you do not entitle you to hurt their feelings.

Any fat advocates on here gunna tell me that those two are fat due to medical reasons? :rolleyes:

Okay. What little kid overeats by their own means? My niece is three. She won't try enchiladas because she thinks there are chihuahuas in them. Reasons for this kind of childhood obesity are usually physical or psychological.

[draqon]

<I'm going home tra-la-la-la-la>

मेरा घर :p

[Roman]

For the same reason you shouldn't make fun of a relatively heterosexual female that chooses to have sex with women with a male partner. Because someone's lifestyle choices that don't hurt you do not entitle you to hurt their feelings.

But threesomes are hawt!!

[takandjive]

Maybe. (http://msp303.photobucket.com/albums/nn159/ciaranskinner/naked_fat_man.jpg)

Oh, you cad!

[takandjive]

But threesomes are hawt!!

Some guys think 600 lb. chicks are hotter than me on Sarah Michelle Gellar.

[Tnerb]

Some guys think 600 lb. chicks are hotter than me on Sarah Michelle Gellar.

:rolleyes:

[Enmos]

:rolleyes:

It's true though. Some guys prefer 'heavy' women.

[Mickmeister]

It's true though. Some guys prefer 'heavy' women.

I don't think obese women are attractive, but I do think plump women are, like 12-16 size

[Absane]

It's true though. Some guys prefer 'heavy' women.

If by "heavy" you mean 300+ pounds, those men are a minority. Plus, their preference does not justify an unhealthy life style.

If someone wants to be fat, fine. But if someone's obesity costs me money (taxes, health care, etc) then I have a problem.

If someone is a self-sustaining fat fuck, then by all means be fat.

BRB... gone to do something that keeps me from getting fat.

[takandjive]

I'll remind myself to take seconds tonight. :rolleyes:

[Enmos]

If by "heavy" you mean 300+ pounds, those men are a minority. Plus, their preference does not justify an unhealthy life style.

If someone wants to be fat, fine. But if someone's obesity costs me money (taxes, health care, etc) then I have a problem.

If someone is a self-sustaining fat fuck, then by all means be fat.

BRB... gone to do something that keeps me from getting fat.

They might be a minority but they still exist. Obese women are also a minority by the way ;)

I'm not saying I particularly like the sight of an obese woman, but who I'm I to judge them ?
I never understood why some people feel the urge to insult and humiliate people that are somehow outside the norm.

[mikenostic]

They might be a minority but they still exist. Obese women are also a minority by the way ;)
Not in the U.S., where 2/3 people are clinically obese.


Okay. What little kid overeats by their own means? My niece is three. She won't try enchiladas because she thinks there are chihuahuas in them. Reasons for this kind of childhood obesity are usually physical or psychological.
Ummm, apparently those two kids that are in the picture, as they seem to not have any help whatsoever wolfing down those fries and burgers.
Who told your niece that chihuahuas are in enchiladas? She wouldn't have come up with that idea on her own.

Look, regardless of all the insults towards fat people, the bottom line is; obesity is not healthy. You canNOT argue with that. Granted your brain and body needs a minimal amount of fat to survive, but past that, fat is nothing but dead weight and a magnet for all kinds of health problems (if health problems aren't the reason you are fat to begin with).

I dont think any fat person is truly deeply inside happy of being fat.
Then the fat ones that have the physical ability to get up and go do something about their obesity need to get up off their asses and go do something about their obesity.
Too busy? Find time. Find a way to incorporate exercises into your schedule. I do crunches while sitting in my chair at work and I sprint up the stairs everytime I go upstairs.
Too tired? Eat better, including healthy energy drinks (I have a great energy drink in mind too*) and take your vitamins and supplements. Exercise itself boosts one's energy.

[Enmos]

Not in the U.S., where 2/3 people are clinically obese.

Obese or overweight ?

[takandjive]

Ummm, apparently those two kids that are in the picture, as they seem to not have any help whatsoever wolfing down those fries and burgers.

They're sitting in front of food. Now, I have a picture of me eating and people don't assume I eat all the time. You're assuming. Also, burgers and fries are delicious. Thin people wolf them down.

Who told your niece that chihuahuas are in enchiladas? She wouldn't have come up with that idea on her own.

Mom asked me the same question. I'll tell you what I told her: Everyone's against me when the kid says stuff like this. :p In fairness, she calls chihuahuas "chee-la-las." Mom and I thought this was funny and started calling enchiladas "in-chee-la-las."

Look, regardless of all the insults towards fat people, the bottom line is; obesity is not healthy. You canNOT argue with that. Granted your brain and body needs a minimal amount of fat to survive, but past that, fat is nothing but dead weight and a magnet for all kinds of health problems (if health problems aren't the reason you are fat to begin with).

No one is arguing being very, very obese is healthy.

Then the fat ones that have the physical ability to get up and go do something about their obesity need to get up off their asses and go do something about their obesity.
Too busy? Find time. Find a way to incorporate exercises into your schedule. I do crunches while sitting in my chair at work and I sprint up the stairs everytime I go upstairs.
Too tired? Eat better, including healthy energy drinks (I have a great energy drink in mind too*) and take your vitamins and supplements. Exercise itself boosts one's energy.

Why do they need to? Because you and I think being fit is very important?

Obese or overweight ?

Overweight. 1/3 is obese.

[mikenostic]

They're sitting in front of food. Now, I have a picture of me eating and people don't assume I eat all the time. You're assuming. Also, burgers and fries are delicious. Thin people wolf them down.
Thin people with quick metabolisms can get away with scarfing down burgers and fries.
and it doesn't matter, children that fat should not be eating McDonald's period. I blame this one on their parents (who are probably also morbidly obese).



Mom asked me the same question. I'll tell you what I told her: Everyone's against me when the kid says stuff like this. :p In fairness, she calls chihuahuas "chee-la-las." Mom and I thought this was funny and started calling enchiladas "in-chee-la-las."
LOL



No one is arguing being very, very obese is healthy.
Why does it have to be 'very, very'? One could be just 30 lbs overweight and be a health risk.



Why do they need to? Because you and I think being fit is very important?
I was just responding to draq's post about fat people not being happy. That was my suggestion to them if they aren't happy...do something about it. If they are happy, then carry on.


Overweight. 1/3 is obese.
Overweight is a misleading term. I weigh about 165 lbs right now. I could theoretically go to the gym for the next year, put on 35 lbs of solid muscle and weigh 200 lbs. By my height standards, I'd be overweight then.

[takandjive]

Thin people with quick metabolisms can get away with scarfing down burgers and fries.
and it doesn't matter, children that fat should not be eating McDonald's period. I blame this one on their parents (who are probably also morbidly obese).

I'm of the school of thought that NO ONE should eat Mickey D's, but everyone's got to splurge a little. Not having any joy in eating tends to cause binge eating.

Why does it have to be 'very, very'? One could be just 30 lbs overweight and be a health risk.

There's some evidence SLIGHTLY overweight people live longer. Myself? I'm pissed my BMI is almost 20. But my standards shouldn't necessarily be someone else's.

[Orleander]

http://www.bitchersmound.com/charter/fat_kid.jpg

why would anyone blame a kid for being fat?? Do people seriously think they had their own money, drove themselves there and ordered the food?

Those kids are fat because their parents made them fat. :mad: Their parents didn't order them a kids meal, those boys got a supersized adult meal.

My kids are slim because they walk/ride their bikes everywhere. They also quit eating when they are full instead of cleaning their plate (as I was raised) even after they are full.
My daughter gets crap from chubby friends that she is too skinny and it pisses me off. But 6 out of 10 of her friends are overweight. Quite overweight. So they are just trying to make themselves feel better by picking on the minority.

[takandjive]

Exactly, Orleander. The way we're raised hugely impacts the way we eat. Making fun of a child for their weight, either way, is callous.

[mikenostic]

Exactly, Orleander. The way we're raised hugely impacts the way we eat. Making fun of a child for their weight, either way, is callous.

I don't want to make fun of those kids, as like I've mentioned, it's not entirely their fault that they are like that. I actually feel bad for them.
What I'd like to do is walk up to their 'rents and bitchslap some sense into them.

[Orleander]

...Why should I feel bad about making fun of them if they are happy the way they are?

why would you make fun of them at all? :shrug:
why would you care so much if a stranger is fat?

[Orleander]

I don't want to make fun of those kids, as like I've mentioned, it's not entirely their fault that they are like that. I actually feel bad for them.
What I'd like to do is walk up to their 'rents and bitchslap some sense into them.

and when those children grow up to be obese?
To me its as if the parent put booze in their bottles/sippy cup and then people judge them for growing up to be alcoholics.

[takandjive]

I don't want to make fun of those kids, as like I've mentioned, it's not entirely their fault that they are like that. I actually feel bad for them.
What I'd like to do is walk up to their 'rents and bitchslap some sense into them.

It's not even a little bit a small child's faults s/he's fat.

[mikenostic]

why would you make fun of them at all? :shrug:
I'm pretty sure Roman covered that earlier in this thread.

[Orleander]

I'm pretty sure Roman covered that earlier in this thread.

I didn't ask for why he would do it. Why do you feel the need to do it?

[Enmos]

Overweight is a misleading term. I weigh about 165 lbs right now. I could theoretically go to the gym for the next year, put on 35 lbs of solid muscle and weigh 200 lbs. By my height standards, I'd be overweight then.

So it's even less than 2/3 then ? :p

[Bells]

Yes we can.

Now let's say we have a fat person who is fat because he/she is lazy. They don't care if they are fat and are perfectly happy being fat...
Why should I feel bad about making fun of them if they are happy the way they are?

Why do you need to make fun of them at all?

Why this need to try to make someone unhappy by humiliating or making fun of them?

[Roman]

Why do you need to make fun of them at all?

Why this need to try to make someone unhappy by humiliating or making fun of them?

Who said anything about needs?

[Bells]

Who said anything about needs?

I did.

I was questioning his apparent need (gleaned from the manner in which he worded the comments that I quoted) to make fun of overweight people.

The question remains. Why do we need to make fun of fat people? Or skinny people? Or anyone for that matter because of how they look or how much they weigh?

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/12/08-15/australianbaby.jpg

Would you call that (http://www.babble.com.au/2008/12/10/is-this-baby-obese-australian-mum-says-no/) child obese? Or even fat? She was 10 month old when that photo was taken and she was well within her healthy weight range. Her doctors all think that she is healthy and in no way fat or even close to being overweight. But her mother was placed in a position of having to remove her from her daycare centre because the staff there referred to her as "fat and obese" (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24778512-5006785,00.html), and she was concerned they would start to withhold her food in their bid to get her to lose weight. Knowing the day care centre chain involved, it wouldn't be surprised if they did try to withhold her food because of their own perceptions.

The Dandenong North mum said she was stunned when her four-year-old son, Lucca, told her staff at the childcare centre called his baby sister a "fat beast".

When she complained, a staff member explained Lucca had got it wrong - the words used were "fat and obese".

There is this perception that everyone must be skinny to be healthy. It's wrong. My father is skinny and has high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I have a friend who is over-weight and he has absolutely normal cholesterol and blood pressure.

[Roman]

I did.

I was questioning his apparent need (gleaned from the manner in which he worded the comments that I quoted) to make fun of overweight people.

The question remains. Why do we need to make fun of fat people? Or skinny people? Or anyone for that matter because of how they look or how much they weigh?

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/12/08-15/australianbaby.jpg

Would you call that (http://www.babble.com.au/2008/12/10/is-this-baby-obese-australian-mum-says-no/) child obese? Or even fat? She was 10 month old when that photo was taken and she was well within her healthy weight range. Her doctors all think that she is healthy and in no way fat or even close to being overweight. But her mother was placed in a position of having to remove her from her daycare centre because the staff there referred to her as "fat and obese" (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24778512-5006785,00.html), and she was concerned they would start to withhold her food in their bid to get her to lose weight. Knowing the day care centre chain involved, it wouldn't be surprised if they did try to withhold her food because of their own perceptions.



There is this perception that everyone must be skinny to be healthy. It's wrong. My father is skinny and has high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I have a friend who is over-weight and he has absolutely normal cholesterol and blood pressure.

Blah blah blah.

I bet you've got a huge ass, huh Bells?

Why do you need chocolate?
Or french fries?

[Bells]

Blah blah blah.

I bet you've got a huge ass, huh Bells?

Why do you need chocolate?
Or french fries?

Yep. Of course it is.:rolleyes:

Good comeback there Roman. Can always count on you to go the way most puerile.

I don't need chocolate or french fries. Why would I "need" to?

I'll change the question since you seem to have such issues with the word "need".

Why do people want to make fun of others for their weight?

[Roman]

Why would I "need" to?

Right. Why would you "need" to?
To characterize Mike's tendency to mock others as a need is to use a fallacious argument.

Here's your argument:
Bells: Why do you need to do this?
Mike: Well I don't need to.
Bells: Then why do you do it? Don't do it if you don't need to.

There are plenty of things we do that we don't NEED to do.

Why do people want to make fun of others for their weight?

My hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility).

[Bells]

Right. Why would you "need" to?
To characterize Mike's tendency to mock others as a need is to use a fallacious argument.

Here's your argument:
Bells: Why do you need to do this?
Mike: Well I don't need to.
Bells: Then why do you do it? Don't do it if you don't need to.

There are plenty of things we do that we don't NEED to do.



My hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility).

How does it benefit the whole?

Why does it bring happiness? Does humiliating and making fun of someone because of their weight bring happiness to the whole? Does it maximise everyone's happiness?

Bentham is probably turning in his grave.

[Roman]

How does it benefit the whole?

I would have linked utilitarianism if it was at all relevant.

I would have linked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_maximization_problem

But most people see math and glaze over.

[Roman]

Here's another one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice_Modelling

[Randwolf]

I am right now truly deeply happy...well not fully.

Truly, deeply happy, but not fully? Maybe you need to get more in touch with your inner-self, Draqon, there seems to be some disagreement amongst your personalities at the moment... :D



I'm not saying I particularly like the sight of an obese woman, but who I'm I to judge them ?
I never understood why some people feel the urge to insult and humiliate people that are somehow outside the norm.

Exactly, Enmos. Personally, I am somewhat repulsed by the sight of morbidly obese people, especially if they "accent" their weight - such as the women in the 'bikini photo'. On the other hand, I am not here to judge them. Also, I highly doubt that most (if any) obese people choose this for themselves. If they had a magic wand, I am quite confident that they would slim down, but many factors enter into clinical morbid obesity. If it were a simple matter of "will power", I think most overweight people would conquer the issue simply to avoid the abuse society dumps on them. This is clearly not the case - weight loss "schemes" and related products continue to generate huge profits.

Obese people, for the most part, do not desire to be overweight. Apparently, conventional dieting and exercise simply don't do the job. Why? I don't know. Genetics, lifestyle, hormonal imbalances, etc. probably all play a part. While I would not deliberately offend someone because of their weight, I have to admit that I would discount certain types of relationships with the grossly overweight. This may be unfair, but I am human. So, for example, sex with any of the women in that bikini picture would be out of the question - quite simply, little willy wouldn't cooperate. :p

I do believe society in general discriminates beyond basic sexual preferences. Prejudice in areas such as employment, friendship or even simple courtesy is patently unfair. In short, it is just sad, and says much about mankind's juvenile behavior... :(




Not in the U.S., where 2/3 people are clinically obese.

Where did you get that ratio, Mike? Granted, obesity is definitely a large problem in the U.S., (pun intended) but your percentages are way off:

Source for quotes:
Obesity rates vary with ethnicity in the United States
Summarized by Susan Aldridge, PhD, medical journalist
5/23/2008 (http://www.nestle-nutrition.com/Media_Room/News_Article_Detail.aspx?ArticleId=9b8debc8-b5a8-4b2d-a16f-f75e18b18663)
From 1960 to 2000, the proportion of the US population classed as obese went up from 11 percent to 28 percent among men and from 16 percent to 34 percent among women

Even if you expand this definition from "obese"to "overweight" you only hit 66% amongst some minority groups, not all Americans in general:

As many as 75 percent of African American, Hispanic and white men were either overweight or obese. And more than 60 percent of white women fell into this category. But only a third of the Chinese Americans were overweight. The researchers say that overall, more than 50 percent of African American women, 40 percent of Hispanic women, 30 percent of African American and Hispanic men and 30 percent of white men and women could be classed as obese. But only five percent of Chinese Americans are obese.



In conclusion, there is a world of difference between "pleasingly plump" and morbidly obese. The former may be a matter of choice and still within the sphere of "healthy", while the latter is a clinical problem deserving compassion, research and treatment.

[takandjive]

I did.

I was questioning his apparent need (gleaned from the manner in which he worded the comments that I quoted) to make fun of overweight people.

The question remains. Why do we need to make fun of fat people? Or skinny people? Or anyone for that matter because of how they look or how much they weigh?

---------------------------------------------------

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strollerderby/2008/12/08-15/australianbaby.jpg

Would you call that (http://www.babble.com.au/2008/12/10/is-this-baby-obese-australian-mum-says-no/) child obese? Or even fat? She was 10 month old when that photo was taken and she was well within her healthy weight range. Her doctors all think that she is healthy and in no way fat or even close to being overweight. But her mother was placed in a position of having to remove her from her daycare centre because the staff there referred to her as "fat and obese" (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24778512-5006785,00.html), and she was concerned they would start to withhold her food in their bid to get her to lose weight. Knowing the day care centre chain involved, it wouldn't be surprised if they did try to withhold her food because of their own perceptions.



There is this perception that everyone must be skinny to be healthy. It's wrong. My father is skinny and has high cholesterol and high blood pressure. I have a friend who is over-weight and he has absolutely normal cholesterol and blood pressure.

Precisely, and she's a perfect, cute little girl, even if she is a chunky little beast. :D

[shorty_37]

How many people especially women are truly happy with their own bodies? I would guess not all that many. If they were plastic surgery wouldn't be booming.

I skimmed through the thread and there seems to be a lot of bickering back and forth, especially between Mike and Orleander no surprise.

I don't know about you guys but I have my own body issues, I am not thrilled with so laughing at others isn't high on my list of things to do.

I mean everyone is vain to some point and will find faults in others. What I can't stand are gorgeous ppl who walk around like they are such hot shit laughing and making fun of less attractive ppl without giving a second thought to hurting their feelings.

I wasn't aware there were so many supermodels in sciforums... :rolleyes:

I don't get the hostility....Nobody is forcing you to date someone like that. Maybe some of these ppl have been laughed at and picked on so much that they are so depressed
they don't even have a shred of self esteem left to even try to do anything anymore. :shrug:


Some men prefer stick, anorexic looking women. I don't find that attractive in the least.

Some women don't like short men or bald men.....etc

To each his own.

[Bells]

Precisely, and she's a perfect, cute little girl, even if she is a chunky little beast. :D

She's healthy and there is nothing wrong with her. If I were her mother, I'd be angry too if the people charged with looking after her in her daycare centre referred to her as huge and obese. Especially if there is a risk that they would try to lower her food intake to make her lose weight. Looks can be deceiving. She is chubby, as most babies that age are. I remember when my eldest was that age, he looked just as chubby with rolls on his arms and legs. Now he is 3 and so tall and skinny that we can see his bones, but he too is within his healthy weight range. Our youngest, who just turned two (my baby's growing up:bawl: ) is short and chubby looking and he is also within his healthy weight range.

Labeling children, especially that young, can lead to horrible repercussions later on in life for those children.

I mean everyone is vain to some point and will find faults in others. What I can't stand are these gorgeous ppl who think they are such hot shit that they will laugh and make fun of less attractive ppl without giving a second thought to hurting their feelings.
Bingo.

People who are morbidly obese deserve compassion and understanding. Not humiliation and derision. Sometimes bordering on hatred. It says more about them then the person who is obese.

[Repo Man]

Are you handing out frequent flyer miles with this obvious guilt trip you're trying to send everyone on? Really?

Actually, it was intended to prevent any talk of being overweight having no consequences.

If I wanted to make anyone feel guilty, I would have mentioned that a contributing factor to her weight problem would have been an alcoholic husband who couldn't be counted on. This meant she had to get a decent job to keep food on the table. As a dispatcher for the California Highway Patrol, she was able to keep the family fed, and later provide as a single mother. Unfortunately, it is a stressful job, and shift work is also bad for your health. The chronic sleep deprivation caused by disrupting your sleep cycle leads to quite a few health issues.

At one point, she was taking care of her terminally ill mother, while getting very little help at home from two lazy teen age boys, and working full time. This all came at the cost of her long term health.

I have to remind myself of this when she takes me out to eat when I visit, which is just about the only thing she enjoys that she can still do. And when I have to help her out of the restaurant booth, I just grit my teeth and do it. About the only hope she has for losing weight would be a gastric bypass, and she's pretty well talked herself out of that.

[shorty_37]

Sometimes I watch TLC (The Learning Channel) and just a few weeks ago they had back to back episodes of,

The Half Ton Man
The Half Ton Woman
The Half Ton Teen

It is really extreme and these ppl literally had to be cut out of their homes by fireman and carried out on tarps to an ambulance. I couldn't even imagine, I kept saying I would rather just be dead then have to endure that kind of embarrassment and humiliation.

It's hard to believe that the human body can even get to 800-1000 lbs.

The Half ton Teen story was the worst. The mother was basically keeping her son morbidly obese by feeding him whatever he wanted. She was the enabler and was responsible for almost killing her son. She had lost a younger son and this was her way to keep her other son with her forever. This way he would always have to depend on her and would have to stay in her constant care. It was getting me really mad watching her doing this to her own kid. Finally he went into a hospital and got the care he needed. The hospital staff were worried that even if he lost a lot of the weight the mother would put him right back where he started.

I don't know when I watch those programs I can really feel these peoples pain.

Mike...................
Do you not feel for these ppl at all? The problem is that sometimes you see someone on the street but you don't know anything about them other then what they look like.
You don't know what got them there......and some ppl are legitimately obese due to circumstances in their lives.

What about anorexic ppl? How do you feel about them? Do you make fun of them too?

[Randwolf]

Some men prefer stick, anorexic looking women. I don't find that attractive in the least.

Nor do I. I find both extremes very unattractive. I like women that look... oh... just like you, Shorty! ;) (seriously)

But I don't believe people should be ridiculed or discriminated against, based on their "fatness". Regardless of my personal aversion to extremely obese / anorexic chickies... :cool:

[CutsieMarie89]

Everyone has their own personal view of what is healthy and what isn't what one thinks is a healthy weight another says it's ridiculously fat. My little brother wears a size 30 pants and he is really scrawny. So for an adult to wear only one size bigger than his is pretty skinny to me.

[CutsieMarie89]

It seems like making fun of people who are fat is just like bullying. That insecure people feel the need to make fun of others. Because they feel inadequate in someway so they tear others down to feel better about whatever it is that is bothering them. When I ran track I never felt the need to make fun of how much slower other people were than me, but the girl that always came in second to me felt the need to do it all of the time, like she needed them to remind her that she was fast.

[shorty_37]

Some obese ppl are very successful.

For instance one of my favs.....Chris Farley

Chris Farley Motivational Speaker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcR7hr4LLQg

( if you don't laugh there is something wrong with you people LOL)

[Roman]

Sometimes I watch TLC (The Learning Channel) and just a few weeks ago they had back to back episodes of,

You gawk; I mock.

[mikenostic]

Some obese ppl are very successful.

For instance one of my favs.....Chris Farley

Chris Farley Motivational Speaker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcR7hr4LLQg

( if you don't laugh there is something wrong with you people LOL)

Chris Farley was awesome, so was John Candy. Both of whom were obese and both of which died of a heart attack well before their time. If they weren't so overweight, they might still be alive today.
Granted Farley's premature heart attack had some assistance from some blow.

[mikenostic]

Precisely, and she's a perfect, cute little girl, even if she is a chunky little beast. :D

Babies that small don't count. I was much chunkier than her at that age, then I started losing all my baby fat between 2 and 3. If they go into kindergarten that chunky, then you should start worrying.

And you and Bells can sit there and say fat babies are cute all you want, it's still not healthy(that goes exponentially moreso for small children than it does adults).

[takandjive]

Babies that small don't count. I was much chunkier than her at that age, then I started losing all my baby fat between 2 and 3. If they go into kindergarten that chunky, then you should start worrying.

And you and Bells can sit there and say fat babies are cute all you want, it's still not healthy(that goes exponentially moreso for small children than it does adults).

She's healthy. I don't think obesity is cute, but also, I just KNOW children don't overeat unless there's a physical or psychological reason. A friend of mine was sexually brutalized as a child, and was obese. It happens.

[CutsieMarie89]

And you and Bells can sit there and say fat babies are cute all you want, it's still not healthy(that goes exponentially moreso for small children than it does adults).

Maybe it is healthy, I was born thin and the doctors said it was unhealthy for a baby to not have a lot of fat on their bodies. Something about using the energy to grow or something like that. Doctors at least in the late 1980s preferred your baby to fat than to be thin. (I was reading my medical records from when I was a baby few days ago).

[mikenostic]

Maybe it is healthy, I was born thin and the doctors said it was unhealthy for a baby to not have a lot of fat on their bodies. Something about using the energy to grow or something like that. Doctors at least in the late 1980s preferred your baby to fat than to be thin. (I was reading my medical records from when I was a baby few days ago).

Sorry. Let me rephrase. I agree with you totally about babies needing their baby fat. What I was talking about are small kids(beyond the toddler stage) like the ones in the picture eating McDonalds. No one will ever convince me that that condition and the food they are eating under their condition is healthy. It's not and never will be. That kind of obesity on a child (not so much a baby/toddler) is way more unhealthy and dangerous for a child that is still growing than for a full grown adult.

Mike...................
Do you not feel for these ppl at all? The problem is that sometimes you see someone on the street but you don't know anything about them other then what they look like.
OMG Shorty. I have made SEVERAL comments in this thread that I have nothing against fat people who are fat because of circumstances beyond their control.
As far as not knowing why they got fat, if I don't know the person, then I usually don't know why they are fat.
If I happen to know a person and that person is obese out of sheer laziness, I have no sympathy for them. None.
If I know them and they are obese due to an accident, genetics or some other misfortune, then I offer all I can to help them with what they need.

You don't know what got them there......and some ppl are legitimately obese due to circumstances in their lives.
see previous response above

What about anorexic ppl? How do you feel about them? Do you make fun of them too?
They don't get a break either. Anorexia is just as unhealthy as obesity.
and are you talking about anorexia itself, or the normal girls who starve themselves knowingly and voluntarily?

[Bells]

Babies that small don't count. I was much chunkier than her at that age, then I started losing all my baby fat between 2 and 3. If they go into kindergarten that chunky, then you should start worrying.

And you and Bells can sit there and say fat babies are cute all you want, it's still not healthy(that goes exponentially moreso for small children than it does adults).

That's the thing. She's not "fat". She is well within her healthy weight range. Some kids look "chunky" but are not overweight.. ie. they are within their healthy weight range. So appearances can be deceiving.

Children look chunky. It is natural and normal. They have pot bellies, chubby arms and legs well into the time they are toddlers. The only thing that will say whether they are fat or not is their actual weight. A child can appear skinny, but be deemed overweight because his/her weight is above what is considered healthy or normal for his/her height range and age. But a child can appear chunky and fat, but would be considered to be healthy and not overweight, because they fall well within their healthy weight and height range for their age.

So a child might well look like that when they start kindergarten. But looks can be deceiving with children and the one thing that should be looked at is their actual weight, not whether they look fat or not.

[mikenostic]

That's the thing. She's not "fat". She is well within her healthy weight range. Some kids look "chunky" but are not overweight.. ie. they are within their healthy weight range. So appearances can be deceiving.
Yeah, I corrected myself with marie above.

Children look chunky. It is natural and normal. They have pot bellies, chubby arms and legs well into the time they are toddlers.
I was noticeably chunkier than that little girl in the picture when I was her age. So yeah, I fully understand that.

[visceral_instinct]

Every motherfucking busybody gives out to me for being thin, like it's their business. It sucks. Not to mention intolerant teenage girls telling me I look 'scary' because I don't have much body fat, so my muscles are visible.

I hate people.

[draqon]

Every motherfucking busybody gives out to me for being thin, like it's their business. It sucks. Not to mention intolerant teenage girls telling me I look 'scary' because I don't have much body fat, so my muscles are visible.

I hate people.

those are very smart teenage girls, they know what they are talking about. :) You should watch for your health.

[Oli]

It's time for that killing spree VI :D

[visceral_instinct]

Draqon, I am not that thin. I'm within healthy weight range for my height. But not much is fat, so I look lean and harsh, or as that little bitch put it, scary.

[mikenostic]

Every motherfucking busybody gives out to me for being thin, like it's their business. It sucks. Not to mention intolerant teenage girls telling me I look 'scary' because I don't have much body fat, so my muscles are visible.

I hate people.
I catch some banter every now and then from my heavier set friends for being thin. However, they know my policy of 'if you dish it out, you better be able to take it', because once they start with the thin lecture, I bring out my fat insult arsenal.

Are those intolerant girls fat or thick in the least?
Next time one of them says anything about you being thin, ask them..

'Hey, don't you have a Jenny Craig meeting to go to? And I don't think standing there making empty, unoriginal insults towards me is helping you lose that spare tire right up above those thunder thighs, bitch'

[visceral_instinct]

@ Oli: Yay, let's kill people! *suits up in kevlar and grabs machine gun*

@ Mike: Yes, said girls are always either fat ones or normal ones who think they are really fat. I think they pick on me to feel better.

Thanks for that line about Jenny Craig meetings, I'm gonna use that. :D

[takandjive]

Every motherfucking busybody gives out to me for being thin, like it's their business. It sucks. Not to mention intolerant teenage girls telling me I look 'scary' because I don't have much body fat, so my muscles are visible.

I hate people.

From what I've seen, you're just athletically built, but you have curves and a cute figure.

[visceral_instinct]

Aw! Thanks! :)

[mikenostic]

@ Mike: Yes, said girls are always either fat ones or normal ones who think they are really fat. I think they pick on me to feel better.

Thanks for that line about Jenny Craig meetings, I'm gonna use that. :D

Hey no problem. I got plenty more. It's not so much the terminology you use, but more so how creative you get with the structure of the chop busting itself.
You could also use Weight Watcher's instead. You get the idea.


Or you could reverse it somewhat. For example, instead of the Jenny Craig suggestion you could say, 'hey, don't you have a box of Twinkies to go home and wolf down instead of making lame insults towards me?'

[mikenostic]

From what I've seen, you're just athletically built, but you have curves and a cute figure.

And there is no sexier type of figure on a woman than that.

[draqon]

You look so hot Visceral_Instinct, your athletic body is very turning on the men around you, especially me. But what is more appealing is your beautiful smile.

[Bells]

Draqon, I am not that thin. I'm within healthy weight range for my height. But not much is fat, so I look lean and harsh, or as that little bitch put it, scary.

I used to be thin. As in skinny thin. The only thing that was not were my boobs, so I'd always hear snide comments about "boob jobs", etc. Then after I had my second child, I went from skinny to a nice healthy size 10-12, nicely within the middle of the healthy weight range for my height (I was hovering on the lowest range and sometimes dipped to being below healthy range for my height).

I can tell you now, I am enjoying the curves.:D

[Lucysnow]

Nevermind healthy or unhealthy fat. Its size 4, if I'm size 6 and not 4 I'm fat. If for some reason I go down to a size 2 its a bonus.

Mikenostic: Jesus. That looks like four loaves of dough baking around twine; like four cans of Hungry Jack biscuits were busted open with a sledgehammer.

There is a Bukowski in you somewhere.

...And yes its a compliment.

[Bells]

Nevermind healthy or unhealthy fat. Its size 4, if I'm size 6 and not 4 I'm fat. If for some reason I go down to a size 2 its a bonus.

That's US size, isn't it?

I think US size I'm probably around the same as you, then. I happen to like my new found curves.:) Unfortunately my best friend tells me that I will only attain "sexy" level when I get a bit of a jiggle in my hips when I walk. The bastard.:bawl:

[Oli]

Unfortunately my best friend tells me that I will only attain "sexy" level when I get a bit of a jiggle in my hips when I walk. The bastard.:bawl:
Kill the unappreciative philistine: you attain "sexy" level when you breathe, ma chere. ;)

[Orleander]

what's up with size 0? If you are a size 0, you should either eat something or you're still in elementary school.

[Bells]

Kill the unappreciative philistine: you attain "sexy" level when you breath, ma chere. ;)

Oh that is smooth cherie.

And I can't kill him. I am quite fond and attached to him.:)

[Bells]

what's up with size 0? If you are a size 0, you should either eat something or you're still in elementary school.

I agree.

[Lucysnow]

Yes Bells its a U.S size. Is the size scale in Australia the same as it is in the U.K? By the way at size 4 I do have curves. Curves are dependent on breasts and a taperd waist not dress size. If Kim Kardashian went down to a size 2 she would still look curvy, just within smaller packaging.

[Bells]

Yes Bells its a U.S size. Is the size scale in Australia the same as it is in the U.K?

I'm not sure. I have a pair of jeans from the UK that was big on me before (size 10), that fits me now. So it is probably close. I wear around size 10-12 now Australian size.. mostly 12 though, depending on the brand. Not sure to be honest about how that scales with US size. I would probably be around a 4-6 now in US size.

I used to fit into size 8 Australian before and even that sometimes required a belt around the waist. Was quite horrible really. I'd gotten to the point where I was buying jeans from the teenage girl's section to get a better fit.:bawl: I'd lost too much weight and I hated it.

[Lucysnow]

Chocolate. Eating more praline filled chocolate is the answer to any unwanted weight loss.

[Bells]

Chocolate. Eating more praline filled chocolate is the answer to any unwanted weight loss.

I went the healthy route.:bawl: Just ate more throughout the day.. healthy snacks and stuff. Every once in a while, I would spoil myself with cake.

[mikenostic]

Not sure to be honest about how that scales with US size. I would probably be around a 4-6 now in US size.
That sounds like a figure that is nothing to scoff at. Very GRRR.

[Bells]

That sounds like a figure that is nothing to scoff at. Very GRRR.

Meh.

I am comfortable with it. Which is what is most important. Less pointy edges according to my husband.

I have one so called friend who told me that I was fat (or had gotten fat as far as she was concerned) last time she saw me, with a snicker as she said it. And if I am, so I am. I am comfortable with it, which is what matters the most. People will comment one way or another. There are some things I am not happy about, but I don't know anyone who is completely happy about their bodies. If you're comfortable as you are, then that is how you should remain.

[Oli]

I am comfortable with it. Which is what is most important. Less pointy edges according to my husband.
Then slap him on his pointy head: the word is "fewer" not "less".
Tch. ;)

[Lucysnow]

Bells how can any woman be considered fat at size 4? You would have to be 3 feet tall to be fat at size 4!

Ok fess up Bells are you a midget? :p

[Bells]

Bells how can any woman be considered fat at size 4? You would have to be 3 feet tall to be fat at size 4!

Ok fess up Bells are you a midget? :p

Nope. Not a midget.

I guess she was comparing me to what I was like before. I would probably fit more into the size 6 category. I'm not sure how US sizing works these days. So for her, after seeing me before and seeing me now after being away for a long time, I was "fat". She is probably what would be considered a size 0 and considers anyone not her size to be "fat". In other words, it was her way of being a bit bitchy to remind me that she thinks I let myself go.. she disapproves that I had children, so it was a way to get that little dig in..

She couldn't understand that I was never happy as I was before and it was stress that caused me to be that skinny. But apparently, that is what I should be striving for. That I don't is a mystery to her.

[Lucysnow]

Well even a size 6 isn't fat. She sounds as if she has issues. I mean how can she disapprove of your having children? You're not a child. I don't believe in 'one size fit all', there are women who are naturally a size 0 and they don't have to really have to work to stay that way.

Kate Moss recently had to explain a weight gain meanwhile she's still size 2:

“”I’ve just started wearing bras. It’s a miracle. Great timing for my lingerie collection. I’ve just grown breasts … I am a woman now. It’s true. Honestly, I’ve never worn a bra in my life. Ever! It’s so awful, even my friends are phoning me up and saying, ‘Are you pregnant?’ And I’m like, ‘No! I just put on a couple of pounds and they went in the right place.’ Isn’t that weird? Now I can fill a B-cup.”

http://evilbeetgossip.film.com/2009/02/16/kate-moss-says-shes-not-pregnant-just-gaining-weight/

[Lucysnow]

She sounds like a twit.

[Bells]

She sounds like a twit.

No. She is a twit.

[mikenostic]

Well even a size 6 isn't fat. She sounds as if she has issues. I mean how can she disapprove of your having children? You're not a child. I don't believe in 'one size fit all', there are women who are naturally a size 0 and they don't have to really have to work to stay that way.
A 6 is by no means fat. I just read that Katherine Heigl is a size 6. And she has a ridiculously nice package.
I also used to date a girl who was a size 0 and 2. She was 5'11" and weighed about 135 lbs. Granted she was slim, she was by no means anorexic.

[CutsieMarie89]

A 6 is by no means fat. I just read that Katherine Heigl is a size 6. And she has a ridiculously nice package.
I also used to date a girl who was a size 0 and 2. She was 5'11" and weighed about 135 lbs. Granted she was slim, she was by no means anorexic.

A size 6 is huge. Plus size models usually wear size 5 and 6 :rolleyes:. It's true though, when I was modeling they would be so mean to the women who wore size 5 and 6. Unless they were in their 40s then it was acceptable, not preferred, but tolerated as in they didn't call you a fat grotesque pig they just thought about it. But you can't base fitness on the size of your pants. I used to play basketball with a girl who wore a size 12, but you'd be hard pressed to find excess fat anywhere on her. She was massive, but not fat. (Except for her breasts they were massive too) :D

[Randwolf]

those are very smart teenage girls, they know what they are talking about. :) You should watch for your health.

But what if they are American "teenage girls"? Certainly they could not "know what they are talking about", right Draq?

[Randwolf]

From what I've seen, you're just athletically built, but you have curves and a cute figure.

Agreed.

[Randwolf]

But you can't base fitness on the size of your pants. Another "agreed". It's about what's in those pants... :D

[Absane]

Another "agreed". It's about what's in those pants... :D

I have a 34 inch waist, but I cannot fit into most 34 inch pants for two reasons: the size of my legs and the size of my ass. It's not fat... it's muscle from all the hiking I do.

I have to buy 36 inch pants and wear a belt.

[Randwolf]

Curves are dependent on breasts and a taperd waist not dress size. If Kim Kardashian went down to a size 2 she would still look curvy, just within smaller packaging.

I've got to find a different thread, or at least take a break, this one is just too "titillating"... :rolleyes: :D

[Lucysnow]

Cutsiemarie: A size 6 is huge. Plus size models usually wear size 5 and 6

Well actually no. Plus size models are usually size 12

'Requirements Can Include:

Between 5'8" and 6'0"
5'9" is pretty much minimum for larger markets though Wilhelmina in NYC does represent a few girls who are 5'7" and 5'8".

Size 12, 14, 16
Sizes 10 and 18/20 are also used, but are not as common.'

[Lucysnow]

Randwolf this should make you tittilate you further

http://www.bakedinny.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kim-kardashian.jpg

Ms. Kim Kardashian's Measurements are 35D-26-40

Note she is curvey and not 'fat' because of her slim waist. Perfect hour-glass measurments

[Randwolf]

Randwolf this should make you tittilate you further

http://www.bakedinny.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/kim-kardashian.jpg

Ms. Kim Kardashian's Measurements are 35D-26-40

Note she is curvey and not 'fat' because of her slim waist. Perfect hour-glass measurments
Now we're cookin' with gas... ;)

Have you noticed (rhetorical, I presume that you have) how much the "ideal" body shape changes over time / culture? Especially for women? What is hot today was not last year / decade/ century, and vice versa. I guess there is no lasting consensus as to what the "perfect curves" should be. Personally, I find all different shapes inviting, with the exceptions of the the actual extremes - anorexic and, uh, "glandular challenged" individuals such as those in the bikini photo.


What about you, personally? Do you think you would be just as comfortable being with someone who weighs 80 lbs (~aprox 36 kg) as you would be with a 400 lb'r (~200kg)?

In what sitation(s)? Work / employment? Romantically? Platonic friends? Part of the "clique"?

If you had a magic wand, where would you weigh in? (Kinda makes you think about things from a new perspective...)

[CutsieMarie89]

Cutsiemarie: A size 6 is huge. Plus size models usually wear size 5 and 6

Well actually no. Plus size models are usually size 12

'Requirements Can Include:

Between 5'8" and 6'0"
5'9" is pretty much minimum for larger markets though Wilhelmina in NYC does represent a few girls who are 5'7" and 5'8".

Size 12, 14, 16
Sizes 10 and 18/20 are also used, but are not as common.'

Sorry for misleading you, I was referring to the company I modeled for, no 'catwalk' so there was no actual height requirement. And for the designer I worked for the plus sizes were 5-7, he didn't make bigger sizes than that (2-4) were his ideal. "These clothes weren't meant for the everyday woman, so need to portray her." That's what they used to say to the feminists who came and protested.

[Lucysnow]

Well I posted above that size 4 is perfect for me (between 110 and 115. I'm maxed out at 120p). I become extremely nervous at any signs of weight gain, though I wouldn't call myself neurotic I have been hard-wired in a society that frowns on meaty women, so for me being a size 6 only leaves me feeling uncomfortable. I have oftern wondered what it would be like to be endowed with an over-eccentuated hour-glass shape but that is a matter of genetics, which is why Trya Banks can gain 30 pounds after modelling and still look great. Believe me when I say if I gained 30 pounds I wouldn't look sexy.

Personally I have always liked my men either stocky or completely fit. Nothing bothers me more than a flabby man, he can be stocky but not flabby. Skinny men are out! Completely! I think mick jagger is a male toothpick. Generally I don't think women care about weight in a serious way, there are other visual cues that are much more enticing for a woman than the size of a man's pecs or how tight his ass is or whether he can fit into a teeny weeny pair of jeans.

Friends, I couldnt care less if my friends or colleagues eat themselves into a size 20, anorexics bother me though as they tend to be control freaks, not much fun.

I think though generally curvy women are much sexier than three dimensional flat boards. Twiggy and Kate Moss have unappealing body shapes, if I had to choose between Giselle's figure and Kim Kardashians I would pick Kim's. Curvy though is more difficult to maintain than stick figure. Curvy has to work at keeping everything tight and tend towards weight gain. Sticks remain sticks forever even if they do gain the odd few pounds.

What do you think about these women for example?

http://www.curvystyle.com/Crystal.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/3116016265_5b0ed405c3.jpg

http://www.curvystyle.com/fluvia1.jpg

You see even though I think they are pretty or beautiful looking women as far as features go, I would hate to be in their bodies. Men on the other hand might think pretty, so what if she's not petite. At the end of the day I don't really think it matters, sexy is sexy no matter what, but we all have to feel comfortable in our bodies no matter the size.

Cutsiemarie: It doesn't matter if the designer only used up to size 7 models which is quite large in high fashion for catwalk, fact remains that to be CLASSIFIED as a plus size model you have to be at least size 12. Like those girls in the pics. Both are high fashion models for people like Jean Paul Gautier etc. and they are 12 or 14 which is a plus size. Its an industry and there is a set criteria.

[codanblad]

You can kiss my ass.
1. I wasn't directing this at YOU.
2. I can't stand it when someone makes a Sam-esque type comment/insult towards the U.S. when their own country has more than its issues.

Then maybe you need to address the troll otherwise known as draqon about this, not me.

all countries have dark pasts, i'm saying there's nothing to gain in that kind of argument, as well as saying get off your high horse.

it wasn't directed at me, but it still annoyed me. saying 'but dragon started it' is a poor excuse.

[Absane]

all countries have dark pasts,

In the spirit of Godwin's Law...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Adolf_Hitler-1933.jpg/175px-Adolf_Hitler-1933.jpg

[mikenostic]

I have a 34 inch waist, but I cannot fit into most 34 inch pants for two reasons: the size of my legs and the size of my ass. It's not fat... it's muscle from all the hiking I do.
Same here, except I have a 32 inch waist, and all mine are from mountain biking.
I'm almost embarrassed to say that I bet a girls' style* pant or jeans that were big enough for a guy would fit me better than most guys pants.

I have to buy 36 inch pants and wear a belt.
Same here except 33 and 34 inch waist pants.

*meaning how they are straight all the way up to above the behind, then taper in for the womans waistline.

[Anti-Flag]

What do you think about these women for example?

http://www.curvystyle.com/Crystal.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/3116016265_5b0ed405c3.jpg

http://www.curvystyle.com/fluvia1.jpg

You see even though I think they are pretty or beautiful looking women as far as features go, I would hate to be in their bodies. Men on the other hand might think pretty, so what if she's not petite. At the end of the day I don't really think it matters, sexy is sexy no matter what, but we all have to feel comfortable in our bodies no matter the size.

Cutsiemarie: It doesn't matter if the designer only used up to size 7 models which is quite large in high fashion for catwalk, fact remains that to be CLASSIFIED as a plus size model you have to be at least size 12. Like those girls in the pics. Both are high fashion models for people like Jean Paul Gautier etc. and they are 12 or 14 which is a plus size. Its an industry and there is a set criteria.

So are all those women size 12-14? Doesn't that make those in the first pic at the start of this thread like 20+?? Cause I'm thinking 14 must be where I draw the line.

[mikenostic]

Interesting...

http://www.wgntv.com/landing/?United-Airlines-bumping-bigger-passenger=1&blockID=267721&feedID=209

A valid argument...
"How do you eyeball someone and decide they're not going to fit?" said aviation consultant Robert Mann, president of R.W. Mann & Co. "From a knees-to-seatback perspective, I don't fit. I'm 6 feet 4 inches".

but Robert, you are the only one who is going to suffer like that. Unless you jam your knees into the seat in front of you and push it forward, you are not encroaching on anyone else's space. Obese people often tend to take up part of the seat next to them, if not all of it.
I personally don't enjoy it when I can't use my freakin armrest when someone's spare tire is 'dunlop'-ed over it.

[CutsieMarie89]

Interesting...

http://www.wgntv.com/landing/?United-Airlines-bumping-bigger-passenger=1&blockID=267721&feedID=209

A valid argument...


but Robert, you are the only one who is going to suffer like that. Unless you jam your knees into the seat in front of you and push it forward, you are not encroaching on anyone else's space. Obese people often tend to take up part of the seat next to them, if not all of it.
I personally don't enjoy it when I can't use my freakin armrest when someone's spare tire is 'dunlop'-ed over it.

If you didn't put your knees behind someone's seat that means they are invading the space of the people next to you or in the aisle. Of courses Airlines really have some nerve with all the terrible things they do to people.

[mikenostic]

If you didn't put your knees behind someone's seat that means they are invading the space of the people next to you or in the aisle.
Of courses Airlines really have some nerve with all the terrible things they do to people.
Well...
their multi-million dollar airplanes, their rules

Most people are within a certain height and weight range, i.e. people who can fit in airline seats.

For the airlines to accomodate atypical sizes, they would have to retrofit all their aircraft, either by removing seats and putting seats for the obese. Guess what that does? It costs money. It will cost the regular consmer like me more. Both because of the cost of retrofitting the aircraft, and because the airliners won't be able to carry as many people...raising the ticket rates.


Maybe, obese people that are obese due to medical issues could get their insurance to help them out on stuff like this (i.e. cover the extra cost of a Southwest ticket for obese people). However fat people who are fat due to laziness would be on their own.

[Orleander]

I guess the way I feel about it, I pay for my ticket as well. I'm not sharing my seat with someone who spills over. The person doesn't have to fly. They can drive, take the bus, or take the train.

I have rights too.

[CutsieMarie89]

Well...
their multi-million dollar airplanes, their rules


I was referring to the racism, agism, and I just made this rule upism. I've had bad experiences with airlines don't get me started...:frust:

[Lucysnow]

Yes Anti-flag both of those women are size 14, plus size begins at 12 and there is a cut off but I am not sure where. The first pictures of obese women are probably 20, but remember plus size models are at least 5'8" and have classic hourglass shapes (breasts corresponding to hip size and waist being at least 5" smaller than the two).

[Anti-Flag]

Yes Anti-flag both of those women are size 14, plus size begins at 12 and there is a cut off but I am not sure where. The first pictures of obese women are probably 20, but remember plus size models are at least 5'8" and have classic hourglass shapes (breasts corresponding to hip size and waist being at least 5" smaller than the two).
I had no idea plus sizes started so low. Why not use models of average height though to actually show what the clothes look like? Isn't that the entire point of it? Also I'm guessing a 5'4 size 12 would look more fat and out of proportion?
At least now I know I go for sizes 10-14 depending on height.

[Lucysnow]

No not at all its not the point. The models represent some ideal beauty. When you are marketing dreams, sex and beauty you don't use average anything, the image must represent a certain perfection of a dream. Plus size measurements are low but if you compare it with the standard size in high-fashion where 0-4 is the average then plus size seems huge. When Naomi Campbell, Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Elle Macpherson were coined the supermodels of their day they averaged size 6 and were all amazon tall (tall will always be a criteria). Basically the models we are presented with now like Giselle are much smaller because the standard has changed to size 0-4.

And you are right the height changes everything! Tyra Banks has said that since she left modelling she has fluctuated between 148 lbs. and 162 lbs but she's a bloody amazon so she can carry that weight which becomes evenly distributed. I'm short myself, 5' 3" and if I even gain 5 ior 10 pounds it makes a huge difference in how I look.

[Anti-Flag]

No not at all its not the point. The models represent some ideal beauty. When you are marketing dreams, sex and beauty you don't use average anything, the image must represent a certain perfection of a dream.
From a fashion show style perspective yes, but I notice the same when it comes to selling clothes to the average person. I was under the impression you would use clothes models to sell clothes(blast my logical mind), whilst I get that you'd use beautiful people and show everyone the "ideal", shouldn't most people be smart enough to look at it and realise they don't have the same proportions as the model and wouldn't look the same? Therefore making it not actually work very well and not buying anything at all? Or am I giving the human race too much credit for not being easily influenced? :shrug:

Plus size measurements are low but if you compare it with the standard size in high-fashion where 0-4 is the average then plus size seems huge. When Naomi Campbell, Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Elle Macpherson were coined the supermodels of their day they averaged size 6 and were all amazon tall (tall will always be a criteria). Basically the models we are presented with now like Giselle are much smaller because the standard has changed to size 0-4.
I guess I don't understand it because I wouldn't have thought using ugly (IMO) and unrealistic women helps advertise clothes.
And you are right the height changes everything! Tyra Banks has said that since she left modelling she has fluctuated between 148 lbs. and 162 lbs but she's a bloody amazon so she can carry that weight which becomes evenly distributed. I'm short myself, 5' 3" and if I even gain 5 ior 10 pounds it makes a huge difference in how I look.
Most people fluctuate, and everyone has a different body type so not everyone who fluctuates a large amount has that weight evenly distributed, even if they are tall. We're all individuals.

[CutsieMarie89]

From a fashion show style perspective yes, but I notice the same when it comes to selling clothes to the average person. I was under the impression you would use clothes models to sell clothes(blast my logical mind), whilst I get that you'd use beautiful people and show everyone the "ideal", shouldn't most people be smart enough to look at it and realise they don't have the same proportions as the model and wouldn't look the same? Therefore making it not actually work very well and not buying anything at all? Or am I giving the human race too much credit for not being easily influenced? :shrug:


I guess I don't understand it because I wouldn't have thought using ugly (IMO) and unrealistic women helps advertise clothes.

Most people fluctuate, and everyone has a different body type so not everyone who fluctuates a large amount has that weight evenly distributed, even if they are tall. We're all individuals.

They advertise their clothes with tiny models, yet they don't actually sell those sizes in the store. (for example: only making long pants in a size 8 or higher) it's false advertising to me.

[Anti-Flag]

They advertise their clothes with tiny models, yet they don't actually sell those sizes in the store. (for example: only making long pants in a size 8 or higher) it's false advertising to me.

All advertising is false, they'd never sell a product if they were honest and said "it's poorly made, it'll fall apart after the first wash and catches on everything".
It's based on psychology, you see someone who looks good in it and think "if I buy that, I'll look good too!" of course once you get your fat ass into the pants you realise it's not quite the same.
It goes for all products, I just don't get why people still fall for it.

[visceral_instinct]

No not at all its not the point. The models represent some ideal beauty. When you are marketing dreams, sex and beauty you don't use average anything, the image must represent a certain perfection of a dream. Plus size measurements are low but if you compare it with the standard size in high-fashion where 0-4 is the average then plus size seems huge. When Naomi Campbell, Linda Evangelista, Cindy Crawford, Elle Macpherson were coined the supermodels of their day they averaged size 6 and were all amazon tall (tall will always be a criteria). Basically the models we are presented with now like Giselle are much smaller because the standard has changed to size 0-4.

And you are right the height changes everything! Tyra Banks has said that since she left modelling she has fluctuated between 148 lbs. and 162 lbs but she's a bloody amazon so she can carry that weight which becomes evenly distributed. I'm short myself, 5' 3" and if I even gain 5 ior 10 pounds it makes a huge difference in how I look.

Screw tall women. I'm so jealous of em!

I'd fucking sell my kidneys for some extra height. Seriously, it would be cool to be 6ft tall ifonly for a few hours then die.

[Orleander]

Screw tall women. I'm so jealous of em!

I'd fucking sell my kidneys for some extra height. Seriously, it would be cool to be 6ft tall ifonly for a few hours then die.

I'm jealous of women with a porcelain complection. I have freckles

[Absane]

Screw tall women. I'm so jealous of em!

I'd fucking sell my kidneys for some extra height. Seriously, it would be cool to be 6ft tall ifonly for a few hours then die.

From the perspective of one that's above 6 feet in height, it's not all that special.

But in all fairness, I'd never trade my height for anything :D

[Enmos]

Screw tall women.

I agree :D

[CutsieMarie89]

Screw tall women. I'm so jealous of em!

I'd fucking sell my kidneys for some extra height. Seriously, it would be cool to be 6ft tall ifonly for a few hours then die.

But your already taller than average, aren't you? 5'7?. Just get some high heeled boots or something.

[Mickmeister]

All advertising is false, they'd never sell a product if they were honest and said "it's poorly made, it'll fall apart after the first wash and catches on everything".
It's based on psychology, you see someone who looks good in it and think "if I buy that, I'll look good too!" of course once you get your fat ass into the pants you realise it's not quite the same.
It goes for all products, I just don't get why people still fall for it.

That is why I love my DVR and watch everything recorded so I don't have to watch those stupid commercials. They are an insult to my intelligence.

[takandjive]

From a fashion show style perspective yes, but I notice the same when it comes to selling clothes to the average person. I was under the impression you would use clothes models to sell clothes(blast my logical mind), whilst I get that you'd use beautiful people and show everyone the "ideal", shouldn't most people be smart enough to look at it and realise they don't have the same proportions as the model and wouldn't look the same? Therefore making it not actually work very well and not buying anything at all? Or am I giving the human race too much credit for not being easily influenced? :shrug:


I guess I don't understand it because I wouldn't have thought using ugly (IMO) and unrealistic women helps advertise clothes.


High fashion is an art. Has little to do with practicality or realism.

[Mickmeister]

I always found it amusing how women take offense to the fact that I preferred chunky girls over skinny since I was athletically built.

[Naturelles]

With models, these advertisers want their product sold, and get money, the don't about anything but the money!

Models are nothing but ordinary people, this video shows it well :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U

[Absane]

With models, these advertisers want their product sold, and get money, the don't about anything but the money!

Models are nothing but ordinary people, this video shows it well :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhCn0jf46U

If you haven't noticed, she had some pretty good facial symmetry to work with. I could never be a model because the right side of my face is wider than the left side by a huge margin.

But I see your video and raise you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-kSZsvBY-A

[takandjive]

Yes, models are prettier than most people. Get over it. I love when people want to argue they're not. Are you REALLY going to argue you look better than this woman?

[Naturelles]

I'm not a female first of all :p

[takandjive]

You're missing my point. I'd bet money you're not model handsome. Most of us aren't, but let's quit hating on people more attractive than us. There's a reason most of us aren't models. When you say something as absurdly stupid as, "Models are just regular-looking people," you're implying it's the only thing they can do, that they're idiots AND they're not that good-looking. This has "jealous" written all over it.

[Naturelles]

I don't really care how I look, I have prioritized my life to what I want to do with my life, I would never want to become a model. Don't see the point of becoming one.

[takandjive]

But let's not make stupid claims like, "Oh, models are just ordinary people." I'm not saying they're better people, but they ARE better-looking than random slobs around town.

Being attractive is not the most important thing, but I think it ranks pretty highly.

[Naturelles]

Not on my list :p

[Oli]

Yes, models are prettier than most people. Get over it. I love when people want to argue they're not. Are you REALLY going to argue you look better than this woman?

Which woman?
The one in the Dove Ad? :confused:

[takandjive]

Not on my list :p

Okay. Despite the fact less attractive people are generally less successful at romance, career, etc., it's not important to you. Brilliant.

Which woman?
The one in the Dove Ad? :confused:

Yes.

[Naturelles]

Please tell me how does attractiveness contribute to a scientist's career? :p

[Oli]

Yes.

In which case: nah.
Not in the least attractive.

[takandjive]

That's a stupid question. How does it hurt? Being attractive coupled with being smart puts you at the front of the line because those more experienced generally pay more attention, people are more willing to listen to you, you're more likely to get a better job... Need I go on?

I didn't say it was fair.

[Naturelles]

Yeah right, the most successful scientists like Faraday, Watson, and Linus Pauling where successful because they where attractive...

I think everyone knows that a scientist isn't a model.

[takandjive]

I didn't say it required good looks. Are you really going to say being attractive isn't useful in most careers?

[Naturelles]

I said its not important for my career, so I don't prioritize it.

[takandjive]

Well, if you say it isn't important, then obviously it has no value!

I'm GOOD at my job because I have talent/skills. You know why people trust me off the bat? Because I'm pretty and have a sincere smile and sound competent. Attractiveness is not the be-all end-all. It shouldn't be taken into account as much as it is. However, if there's anything Roman and Mike have proven, and I know at least one of them as a good job, owns a home, and is successful. Standard "unattractive" people are judged harshly and it affects much of their lives.

We're not all born beautiful, and looking your best is NOT a promise for success. It's an edge, and you can choose not to utilize it, but there are prices to pay.

[Anti-Flag]

Yes, models are prettier than most people. Get over it. I love when people want to argue they're not. Are you REALLY going to argue you look better than this woman?

It's called a difference of opinion, nobody is perfect and not everyone finds the same things attractive so there are always people that consider you ugly. Get over it.

[takandjive]

I think we can generally agree that if someone's being used to market something as a model is used, they have features that are considered attractive in Western civilization. She's not being used to advertise make-up because people will go, "WOW! She looks really average!"

There's a difference between mainstream attractiveness and what we individually find attractive. Some men like fat women, but they're idiots if they say this woman isn't attractive and they find her ugly. I'm so tired of people trying to sound "anti-establishment" and "cool" by saying, "Oh, models aren't that attractive." Standards of beauty haven't changed much in Western society since we've had good nutrition/plenty of food available.

[Naturelles]

It's called a difference of opinion, nobody is perfect and not everyone finds the same things attractive so there are always people that consider you ugly. Get over it.

Agree with you.

[Anti-Flag]

There's a difference between mainstream attractiveness and what we individually find attractive. Some men like fat women, but they're idiots if they say this woman isn't attractive and they find her ugly. I'm so tired of people trying to sound "anti-establishment" and "cool" by saying, "Oh, models aren't that attractive." Standards of beauty haven't changed much in Western society since we've had good nutrition/plenty of food available.

You sound like you came right off the playground at school.
I'd suggest you remove your head from you're oh so hot (in your opinion) ass.

[Anti-Flag]

Okay. Despite the fact less attractive people are generally less successful at romance, career, etc.,

You'll have to back this up by the way or withdraw the comment.
Regardless I'm still going to tell you that the definition of a successful life/career/romantic life etc is entirely subjective.

[Oli]

Some men like fat women, but they're idiots if they say this woman isn't attractive and they find her ugly.
Or even merely unattractive...
So what happened to -
There's a difference between mainstream attractiveness and what we individually find attractive.

[Lucysnow]

I'm jealous of women with a porcelain complection. I have freckles

Kate Moss has freckes

Anti-flag the way fashion comes down towards the massess has mostly always been the same. First it sets an ideal that women aspire and work towards, today its being thing, in the 50's it was being buxom. Do you think it would have been fun for a stick figure to have to fit into dressses designed for big breasted big hipped women? I think not. In China at one time the ideal for women of society were samll 6" feet (a requirement for being attractive to men). Mother's forced their young daughters into foot-binding. These women didn't have to work nevermind walk but even though the working classess couldn't practically bind their feet, they did try and emulate the style as best as they could and so minimally bound their feet.

There is also a practical reason for why desigeners prefer thinner women:

1. A thin woman can slip into almost any sample which is why they call models 'hangers'

2. Samples come in one size, they don't have the time to make samples specifically for diversly shaped women for one show.

3. Tall women stand out on a catwalk

I think its sour grapes to call models ugly when many of them really are not, many have unusual features and this is why people like to look at them. They have to be photogenic and not many women are even if they are pretty. Its generally uniqueness that designers and art directors are looking for in a model. Don't kid yourself that they are marketing these items to the 'average' woman, the average woman cannot pay between $500- $1,000 for a pair of designer shoes or from $2000-$10,000 for a designer dress. They are pandering to the upper echelons of society not the girl at the check out counter. But since fashion has always come from the top where the best designers plow their trade, those who create clothes by the thousands for the average women tend to steal color and style ideas from what they see during high fashion shows. They use sub standard material and the clothes are stretched to meet the needs of larger women they were not originally designed for which actually ruins the cut. Its women like Lane Bryant who makes designs specific for plus size women but she's not democratic either; a thin woman could never be booked for an ad or for the catwalk because all the clothes would come in one size, which is 12 or 14. Fashion has never been a democratic institution and I see no reason why it should be. If you are comfortable with what you see don't look but don't whine about which body type they don't represent. This type of Art isn't supposed to mirror the masses, it dictates to the masses.

[Anti-Flag]

Kate Moss has freckes

Anti-flag the way fashion comes down towards the massess has mostly always been the same. First it sets an ideal that women aspire and work towards, today its being thing, in the 50's it was being buxom. Do you think it would have been fun for a stick figure to have to fit into dressses designed for big breasted big hipped women? I think not. In China at one time the ideal for women of society were samll 6" feet (a requirement for being attractive to men). Mother's forced their young daughters into foot-binding. These women didn't have to work nevermind walk but even though the working classess couldn't practically bind their feet, they did try and emulate the style as best as they could and so minimally bound their feet.
That's just the point though, are they really attractive or is this a more general thing about a controlling "we like this, so we want you to like it too" attitude? I can't imagine having a thing for women with only a certain size feet, and to say everyone did for a generation sounds like social brainwashing rather than actual genetics or any consideration for what they actually liked. Do we really need an "ideal" when everybody is unique and has different tastes?

There is also a practical reason for why desigeners prefer thinner women:

1. A thin woman can slip into almost any sample which is why they call models 'hangers'

2. Samples come in one size, they don't have the time to make samples specifically for diversly shaped women for one show.

3. Tall women stand out on a catwalk
This is subject to change of course, as you showed, so the question is WHY does is change?

I think its sour grapes to call models ugly when many of them really are not, many have unusual features and this is why people like to look at them.
See Oli's post above and mine. Everyone likes different things, to me, the majority are ugly, but I imagine I like more people that I pass on the street than the average man. Curse my genetics but this is completely irrelevant to how I feel about myself, and dismissing it as sour grapes or jealousy is a very closed minded view to take.
It makes about as much sense as a millionaire telling a self sufficient and happy person that they must be jealous because they have a different opinion on how to live. They could just as easily say the same back.
They have to be photogenic and not many women are even if they are pretty. Its generally uniqueness that designers and art directors are looking for in a model. Don't kid yourself that they are marketing these items to the 'average' woman, the average woman cannot pay between $500- $1,000 for a pair of designer shoes or from $2000-$10,000 for a designer dress. They are pandering to the upper echelons of society not the girl at the check out counter. But since fashion has always come from the top where the best designers plow their trade, those who create clothes by the thousands for the average women tend to steal color and style ideas from what they see during high fashion shows. They use sub standard material and the clothes are stretched to meet the needs of larger women they were not originally designed for which actually ruins the cut. Its women like Lane Bryant who makes designs specific for plus size women but she's not democratic either; a thin woman could never be booked for an ad or for the catwalk because all the clothes would come in one size, which is 12 or 14. Fashion has never been a democratic institution and I see no reason why it should be. If you are comfortable with what you see don't look but don't whine about which body type they don't represent. This type of Art isn't supposed to mirror the masses, it dictates to the masses.
That's the point, if it isn't aimed at the average women then why are they so obsessed with it?
I think the last part illustrates perfectly the whole arrogance and brainwashing of the situation. They tell us what to like, and we lap it up. You don't think that's the least bit pathetic?

By the way, I think like most people who have no interest in fashion I don't go looking for the models or their clothes, but be fair here it's hard not to notice them when they are shoved up on billboards all over the place, and on adverts, and pretty much everywhere you look.

[Lucysnow]

Right Anti-flag some people would say these women are ugly right?

ttp://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/722/Linda_Evangelista_007.jpg

http://beautyfashionlife.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/iman-cosmetics-400a121307.jpg

http://www.top-fashion-models.info/female-models/pics/devon-aoki4.jpg

http://www.santabanta.com/wallpapers/gallery1.asp?catid=800

You can have a beauty preference but I don't think anyone anywhere would call these women ugly.

[Anti-Flag]

Right Anti-flag some people would say these women are ugly right?

ttp://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/722/Linda_Evangelista_007.jpg

http://beautyfashionlife.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/iman-cosmetics-400a121307.jpg

http://www.top-fashion-models.info/female-models/pics/devon-aoki4.jpg

http://www.santabanta.com/wallpapers/gallery1.asp?catid=800
Correct, some people would say they are ugly. There is no such thing as perfection or true beauty beyond an individual persons opinion because the terms are entirely subjective. Yet people continue to clamour for it.

[Oli]

In order:
Nothing spectacular.
Quite good looking.
Unusual but not really pretty.
Pardon? She's always seemed very "white bread" to me.

[Edit] If you can find it: look at the vastly different opinions in the "Most Beautiful Woman" thread, or whatever it was called. [EndEdit]

[Bells]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[Lucysnow]

Anti-Flag; That's just the point though, are they really attractive or is this a more general thing about a controlling "we like this, so we want you to like it too" attitude? I can't imagine having a thing for women with only a certain size feet, and to say everyone did for a generation sounds like social brainwashing rather than actual genetics or any consideration for what they actually liked. Do we really need an "ideal" when everybody is unique and has different tastes?

Yes they are attractive and very attractive women or men are generally uncommon. The chinese foot thing was a cultural phenomenon but it illustrates that certain things like small feet or thin bodies can take on a fashion trend and women will follow it as it drips from the top down. You miss the point, there has always been an ideal from the divas on the stage to the catwalk their has alway been an ideal, its a cultural phenonmenon not a conspiracy. Whether the ideal is large breasts and big butts like Kim kardashian, Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez, or skinny fashion models.

The images changes as society and culture changes. Oli is stating a preference, he didn't say the woman was 'ugly' and I don't believe you find the majority of these women to be ugly either.
I think its a knee-jerk reaction to call what is obviously a beautiful woman 'ugly' whether it is sour grapes or not. I am not referring to your body size because as I posted earlier there are large women who are beautiful but they also don't represent the average, they are unusually attractive. Beauty is Beauty and a few extra pounds tends not to change that...though facial fire burns problably would. And Beauty ISN'T a lifestyle as you seem to think its an aesthetic value.


Anti-flag: That's the point, if it isn't aimed at the average women then why are they so obsessed with it?

Who are obsessed with it? The average person? Because most people like beautiful things ie. clothes, jewelry, makeup. Most like to enhance their physical self aiming at some kind of ideal even if its through body piercings and modifications, having a hard body from working out at the gym, or sporting a pink mohawk.

Anti-flag: I think the last part illustrates perfectly the whole arrogance and brainwashing of the situation. They tell us what to like, and we lap it up. You don't think that's the least bit pathetic?

No I don't think its pathetic its the way fashion works. There are people who care nothing for it but they are indifferent towards it, they aren't disparaging. And its not brainwashing either, don't you think that in earlier centuries when there were no billboards or television and magazines that people didn't aspire to an ideal beauty? You are kidding yourself if you think this has been any different at any other time. China didn't advertize small feet, it spread as all cultural things do. If you feel its being shoved down your throat its because you have a personal issue with it. I never feel manipulated nor threatened by it. I love fashion and I pick and choose from it the items or trends I particularly enjoy. I don't know about you but I love buying beautiful clothes and shoes, I love a cool pair of jeans and that specail top to go with it or whatever. Fashion should be fun not a drag.

[Lucysnow]

But Oli would you call them ugly? The most beautiful women thread deals with preferences, some prefer one to another but one wouldn't call any of them 'ugly'. Anti-flag who do you know who would call any of these women 'ugly'? Are they ugly in your minds eye? If so what do you call beauty? Please no pictures of old smiling ladies, children blowing bubbles or fat women having a smile and a laugh over ice cream, I will only assume you're being politically correct.

[Oli]

You miss the point, there has always been an ideal from the divas on the stage to the catwalk their has alway been an ideal, its a cultural phenonmenon not a conspiracy.
But a cultural ideal is NOT universal within that culture, there are different opinions.
I'm a Brit and I dislike tea intensely for example. (And I'd be a lousy American because I can't stand the taste of orange juice) :)

I think its a knee-jerk reaction to call what is obviously a beautiful woman 'ugly' whether it is sour grapes or not.
Again: "what is obviously a beautiful woman"?
Obvious to whom?

[Anti-Flag]

Yes they are attractive, we very attractive women are uncommon. The chinese foot thing was a cultural phenomenon but it illustrates that certain things like small feet or thin bodies can take on a fashion trend and women will follow it as it drips from the top down. You miss the point, there has always been an ideal from the divas on the stage to the catwalk their has alway been an ideal, its a cultural phenonmenon not a conspiracy. Whether the ideal is large breasts and big butts like Kim kardashian, Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez, or skinny fashion models.

The images changes as society and culture changes. Oli is stating a preference, he didn't say the woman was 'ugly' and I don't believe you find the majority of these women to be ugly either.
I think its a knee-jerk reaction to call what is obviously a beautiful woman 'ugly' whether it is sour grapes or not. I am not referring to your body size because as I posted earlier there are large women who are beautiful but they also don't represent the average, they are unusually attractive. Beauty is Beauty and a few extra pounds tends not to change that...though facial fire burns problably would. And Beauty ISN'T a lifestyle as you seem to think its an aesthetic value.
You missed the point, it's subjective, as Bells has now helpfully pointed out with a very well known saying. Yes, they can be considered ugly, just like everyone else, it just depends on who's judging them.

Who are obsessed with it? The average person? Because most people like beautiful things ie. clothes, jewelry, makeup. Most like to enhance their physical self aiming at some kind of ideal even if its through body piercings and modifications, having a hard body from working out at the gym, or sporting a pink mohawk.
That's just it though, haven't you noticed the ones who "must" have an item of clothing or a particular style because it's "in"? Having an individual ideal is one thing, a collective one is another matter. Why is everyone trying to look exactly the same; because that's how they really want to look, or because that's how they're told to look? At the least it's an interesting social experiment.

No I don't think its pathetic its the way fashion works. There are people who care nothing for it but they are indifferent towards it, they aren't disparaging. And its not brainwashing either, don't you think that in earlier centuries when there were no billboards or television and magazines that people didn't aspire to an ideal beauty? You are kidding yourself if you think this has been any different at any other time. China didn't advertize small feet, it spread as all cultural things do. If you feel its being shoved down your throat its because you have a personal issue with it. I never feel manipulated nor threatened by it. I love fashion and I pick and choose from it the items or trends I particularly enjoy. I don't know about you but I love buying beautiful clothes and shoes, I love a cool pair of jeans and that specail top to go with it or whatever. Fashion should be fun not a drag.
Right, but do you think the majority of people see it that way? See above about "must haves" and influence. Would society collapse if we just one day said "go ahead, it's your call".:shrug:
Secondly if you don't think it's being shoved down peoples throats then you should stop and take a look around once in a while, it's everywhere.
I ignore it, don't mistake that, but that also doesn't ever mean I should skulk away and not have an opposing opinion when people effectively say "and here we have an example of beauty, don't argue, our opinion is correct and bollocks to yours it's wrong". Subjective issues don't work like that.

[Anti-Flag]

But Oli would you call them ugly? The most beautiful women thread deals with preferences, some prefer one to another but one wouldn't call any of them 'ugly'. Anti-flag who do you know who would call any of these women 'ugly'? Are they ugly in your minds eye? If so what do you call beauty? Please no pictures of old smiling ladies, children blowing bubbles or fat women having a smile and a laugh over ice cream, I will only assume you're being politically correct.

Politically correct? Crikey, you haven't read any of my posts before have you? :p
I'm hoping Oli is on the same wavelength as me when I say the reason they are ugly in someones opinion is because it just isn't what they go for, so in their opinion they are unattractive. It's a fact of life. Unless the only person you equate to the word "ugly" is the elephant man, then we may have a difference of opinion on what the word means.

[Oli]

But Oli would you call them ugly?
Ugly, no.
But Elle McPherson for example has always struck me as bland.

Isabelle Adjani, on the other hand...
http://www.cassiel.net/Galleries3/Singers_Act/images/Isabelle_Adjani_1-700.jpg

And I've always a "thing" for Paula Yates:
http://www.newprophecy.net/Paula_Yates_4.jpg

[visceral_instinct]

But your already taller than average, aren't you? 5'7?. Just get some high heeled boots or something.

Yeah...

But I was hyper tall in early adolescence (didn't really fuss about my height until people started commenting on how lanky I was), and looking forward to being one of those amazon/supermodel types....then I slowed down and only grew in little increments.

I have this exercise I call 'The Rack'...I lie on my metal bunk bed, hook my feet under one end and my hands around the other, and pull my spine out straight...Probably not a good idea, but meh.

[Lucysnow]

But Oli I don't think you understand my point here, in China footbinding became a necessary part in getting a husband for example, the richer you were the smaller the feet were bound so it was also a sign of social status. It wasn't like 'oh I feel like having bound feet today' or 'I really never liked bound feet I think I will go for something else'. At the time it was a cultural ideal that deeply embedded itself in society and it was followed. No easy feat either as the foot had to be literally broken when as a young girl and forced into the shape. You see oli those pictures you posted also features beautiful women, whether you prefer them to Elle is an entirely different matter and doesn't take away from the fact that Elle is still a beautiful woman

Oli: Again: "what is obviously a beautiful woman"?
Obvious to whom?

What's a cute puppy? Or a beautiful rose? And to whom? You still didn't answer whether you found any of those models to be what is called 'ugly'. We all have a visceral response to beauty and we tend to know it when we see it. Its not a deep thing here, I mean you can see a beautiful dress and decide it isn't a practical item because its uncomfortable to sit in it for example. You can agree a woman is beautiful but not have the urge to sleep with her or talk to her because her accent sucks or she speaks rubbish or because she isn't nice nor interesting. But all that withstanding it doesn't make the dress or the woman any less beautiful. I think you mistake preferences for whether the object has intrinsic aesthetic value. Tea and orange juice have no aesthetic values at all.

[Lucysnow]

Anti-Flag:You missed the point, it's subjective, as Bells has now helpfully pointed out with a very well known saying. Yes, they can be considered ugly, just like everyone else, it just depends on who's judging them.

That's not a point that's a cliche. I don't think that people go around calling beautiful things ugly, no. If its relative then I guess the anorexic is just fine to think she is fat at 95 pounds and that its relative and there will be many who find this woman:

http://www.uglypeople.com/voting.php?next=dXBsb2FkZWQvMTI2MDU2LzE0LmpwZw==

and this one

http://www.uglypeople.com/voting.php?next=dXBsb2FkZWQvNS91cDEuanBn

Are beautiful without it being considered a fetish.


Antiflag: That's just it though, haven't you noticed the ones who "must" have an item of clothing or a particular style because it's "in"?

NO not unless they are really young. People who understand style know that the 'must have' items are those that enhance your personal style.

Antiflag: Having an individual ideal is one thing, a collective one is another matter. Why is everyone trying to look exactly the same; because that's how they really want to look, or because that's how they're told to look? At the least it's an interesting social experiment.

No one can tell you how to look because 'the look' doesn't represent and isn't designed for everyone. I mean I would look so silly in a Jean Paul Gaultier gown, his clothes are designed for a different personality type, a different kind of aesthetic beauty.


Anti-flag: Right, but do you think the majority of people see it that way? See above about "must haves" and influence. Would society collapse if we just one day said "go ahead, it's your call".:shrug:

People do do that. I don't know why you assume they do not. Desire is what it is, you cannot manufacture it. When various hues of green where the rage I didn't buy anything in that color because green has never suited my complexion. I buy what ENHANCES not what I am told and thank god that these designers have a variety of attitudes and tastes, what is out there is actually quite diverse, I don't know why you cant see that.

Anti-flag: Secondly if you don't think it's being shoved down peoples throats then you should stop and take a look around once in a while, it's everywhere.
I ignore it, don't mistake that, but that also doesn't ever mean I should skulk away and not have an opposing opinion when people effectively say "and here we have an example of beauty, don't argue, our opinion is correct and bollocks to yours it's wrong". Subjective issues don't work like that.

Why would you argue about it? The fashion industry doesn't care whether you like it, agree with it, have an opinion about it or not. They don't care if you think that the models are too skinny either they have THEIR aesthetic that they are dealing with. Designers are artists first and they care about quality and beauty, exclusivity and uniquness, whether you like it or not is besides the point. Most cannot afford it anyway! I see fashion but I don't think its being shoved down my throat, its advertising, its selling, its beautiful ads or ordinary ads or shock ads. So what? I'm not bothered by it at all.

[Oli]

But Oli I don't think you understand my point here, in China footbinding became a necessary part in getting a husband for example, the richer you were the smaller the feet were bound so it was also a sign of social status.
Is that the same as universal standard of aesthetics?

At the time it was a cultural ideal that deeply embedded itself in society and it was followed.
So there were no Chinese men who found bound feet less than attractive?

You see oli those pictures you posted also features beautiful women, whether you prefer them to Elle is an entirely different matter and doesn't take away from the fact that Elle is still a beautiful woman
But she isn't.

You still didn't answer whether you found any of those models to be what is called 'ugly'.
You missed this:
Ugly, no.
But Elle McPherson for example has always struck me as bland.

You can agree a woman is beautiful but not have the urge to sleep with her or talk to her because her accent sucks or she speaks rubbish or because she isn't nice nor interesting.
All I can say then is: sue me or send me for psychiatric treatment :D
Elle McPherson is NOT beautiful to me.
She has a good body, is fresh-faced (or whatever the term is), but strikes me as totally bland.
Agreed about sleeping/ not sleeping, I do distinguish between sexually attractive and aesthetically attractive.

[Lucysnow]

There's a difference between mainstream attractiveness and what we individually find attractive. Some men like fat women, but they're idiots if they say this woman isn't attractive and they find her ugly. I'm so tired of people trying to sound "anti-establishment" and "cool" by saying, "Oh, models aren't that attractive." Standards of beauty haven't changed much in Western society since we've had good nutrition/plenty of food available.

I agree

[Lucysnow]

Is that the same as universal standard of aesthetics?
So there were no Chinese men who found bound feet less than attractive?.

I'm sure there were but they certainly didn't leave much of a mark. As I noted footbinding is based on a closed cultural phenomenon. Its interesting to note that Manchurians, the clan who were in control over the Hans administratively and socially didn't bind their feet, but in the cultural game overtime it was Han culture that won out and Manchurians began imitating them.

I don't believe that you find Elle ugly or unattractive, you simply don't prefer her.
I am not attractive to Johhny Depp but I would hardly call him hard on the eyes, I prefer the Oliver Reeds and Russel Crowes but it doesn't make Depp ugly nor unattractive, I just prefer the other males. The fact that you acknowlege Elle as 'fresh faced' and having a 'good body' means that you appreciate her aesthetic values even if you think she's bland on the hottie meter. What you honestly cannot do is say she is ugly.

[Bells]

I agree

I disagree.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there are people who did and do find the "super models" of this world ugly and unattractive.

And the Western standards of beauty have changed during the last 100 years. If you look at the models of the past, the standards for "beauty" or what is considered beautiful have changed and altered with time. We've gone from waif thin to very curvy and plump, to tall and stick thin to waif again, and back too many times to count. The public or the 'Western Standard' changes and adapts to what is suddenly considered beautiful.

Models are not just chosen for 'beauty'. They are selected because they are striking and draw attention. They are chosen or become models because they suit whatever style designers want to portray.

So yes, there are some who may consider a woman to be unattractive and ugly while another will consider her to be "zomg stunning". It's what draws the individual eye. Regardless of whether one considers her to be ugly or attractive is quite beside the point at the end of the day. The objective has been fulfilled because people will look at the image regardless because they are struck by it, for different reasons, but they are still struck by it.

[Oli]

I don't believe that you find her ugly or unattractive, you simply don't prefer her.
Let's put it this way: if she (or a non-famous lookalike) were in my pub I wouldn't cross the room to talk to her.

I am not attractive to Johhny Depp but I would hardly call him hard on the eyes, I prefer the Oliver Reeds and Russel Crowes but it doesn't make Depp ugly nor unattractive, he just prefer the other males. The fact that you acknowlege Elle as 'fresh faced' and having a 'good body' means that you appreciate her aesthetic values even if you think she's bland on the hottie meter. What you honestly cannot do is say she is ugly.
By "fresh-faced" I just meant no particular blemishes - scrubbed clean bland.
Characterless almost.
I think we had this with Sandy and her comments that Christie Brinkley is "hot".
One_Raven said it first - "white bread" -wholesome but not particularly appealing.

[Lucysnow]

Bells unattractive and ugly are two different things and I do not believe anyone would find most of those girls 'ugly', no sorry I have to disagree with you on that one. I already noted in my other posts that standards of beauty change, its the criteria that changes but beauty is still beauty. As I said the standards were once buxom as opposed to thin but those buxom women were no less beautiful than their skinny contemporaries. The fact that at one time blonds were preferred over brunettes or that fair skin was a preference over tan didn't make the 'object' any less beautiful in its own right. As I have previously noted being striking or unusual is a function of a model, yes they are also attractive, they have to be unique in an aesthetically pleasing way. I challenge you to find one who is actually what anyone would call ugly.

[Bells]

Bells unattractive and ugly are two different things and I do not believe anyone would find most of those girls 'ugly', no sorry I have to disagree with you on that one. I already noted in my other posts that standards of beauty change, its the criteria that changes but beauty is still beauty. As I said the standards were once buxom as opposed to thin but those buxom women were no less beautiful than their skinny contemporaries. The fact that at one time blonds were preferred over brunettes or that fair skin was a preference over tan didn't make the 'object' any less beautiful in its own right. As I have previously noted being striking or unusual is a function of a model, yes they are also attractive, they have to be unique in an aesthetically pleasing way. I challenge you to find one who is actually what anyone would call ugly.

Beauty is still beauty, but it is also individual. What I find beautiful, you might find ugly. And vice versa. We see what we want to see and only find beauty in what pleases us individually.

[Anti-Flag]

That's not a point that's a cliche. I don't think that people go around calling beautiful things ugly, no.
Do you understand the meaning of "subjective"?
It's like arguing what career is best, or car. It's a personal preference and having a different preference to another person is actually pretty normal. I think you don't like that some people would say something you consider beautiful is ugly, as though it somehow makes you wrong, but it's an opinion, there isn't a right or wrong. They're not calling something beautiful ugly, they are saying something which in your opinion is beautiful is in their opinion ugly. Oddly enough the same thing you do to them.


NO not unless they are really young. People who understand style know that the 'must have' items are those that enhance your personal style.
I've noticed it in people up to a certain age, maybe up to their 30's. Ok so they don't understand style(in your opinion), that wasn't the point. They believe the item is a "must have" because they are told so. Is this attitude healthy? Can we agree on anything here?


No one can tell you how to look because 'the look' doesn't represent and isn't designed for everyone. I mean I would look so silly in a Jean Paul Gaultier gown, his clothes are designed for a different personality type, a different kind of aesthetic beauty.
Clearly you are smart enough or experience enough with this topic to know that, but do you believe that applies to everyone? Have you never noticed the young girls who think supermodel thin is the "correct" style ie they believe they "must" look that way or they won't be attractive?

People do do that. I don't know why you assume they do not. Desire is what it is, you cannot manufacture it. When various hues of green where the rage I didn't buy anything in that color because green has never suited my complexion. I buy what ENHANCES not what I am told and thank god that these designers have a variety of attitudes and tastes, what is out there is actually quite diverse, I don't know why you cant see that.
See above. There is clearly an influence and a social pressure on the general public, hell they wouldn't sell any products if there wasn't now would they? I should think it goes for a lot of industries really, we just seem to be on the subject of this one.

Why would you argue about it? The fashion industry doesn't care whether you like it, agree with it, have an opinion about it or not. They don't care if you think that the models are too skinny either they have THEIR aesthetic that they are dealing with. Designers are artists first and they care about quality and beauty, exclusivity and uniquness, whether you like it or not is besides the point. Most cannot afford it anyway! I see fashion but I don't think its being shoved down my throat, its advertising, its selling, its beautiful ads or ordinary ads or shock ads. So what? I'm not bothered by it at all.

I don't care about the industry, I care about the people, I'm concerned at the number of people who come out with dumbass statements like "I must have that, because it's the fashion/others have it". It may very well not apply to you but it seems individuality in others, particularly the young and impressionable is stifled these days, it's all about what others do.

[Lucysnow]

Let's put it this way: if she (or a non-famous lookalike) were in my pub I wouldn't cross the room to talk to her.
By "fresh-faced" I just meant no particular blemishes - scrubbed clean bland.Characterless almost.I think we had this with Sandy and her comments that Christie Brinkley is "hot".
One_Raven said it first - "white bread" -wholesome but not particularly appealing.


Didn't you read what I wrote in my previous post to you? IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU WOULDN'T GO AND TALK TO HER!! That doesn't make her any less beautiful because you prefer another type. Having no blemishes is a criteria for beauty, when I see someone with many blemishes or facial scares I think 'its too bad that his or her beauty has been marred.' If 'fresh faced' were irrelevant the cosmetic industry and dermatology wouldn't be making so much money.

[visceral_instinct]

I disagree.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there are people who did and do find the "super models" of this world ugly and unattractive.

And the Western standards of beauty have changed during the last 100 years. If you look at the models of the past, the standards for "beauty" or what is considered beautiful have changed and altered with time. We've gone from waif thin to very curvy and plump, to tall and stick thin to waif again, and back too many times to count. The public or the 'Western Standard' changes and adapts to what is suddenly considered beautiful.

Models are not just chosen for 'beauty'. They are selected because they are striking and draw attention. They are chosen or become models because they suit whatever style designers want to portray.

So yes, there are some who may consider a woman to be unattractive and ugly while another will consider her to be "zomg stunning". It's what draws the individual eye. Regardless of whether one considers her to be ugly or attractive is quite beside the point at the end of the day. The objective has been fulfilled because people will look at the image regardless because they are struck by it, for different reasons, but they are still struck by it.
I agree with your post.

I hate how society seems to have just one concept of what is beautiful. People can be good looking in different ways. I can think of someone who is over six and a half feet tall, devastatingly attractive. I can think of someone who is about five feet and heavyset, also very good looking.