View Full Version : Theism-atheism spectrum
James R
03-25-09, 07:52 AM
Where do you fit on the belief-in-God scale?
With which of the following statements do you most agree?
Very strong theist: "God certainly exists. There is no room for any doubt at all."
Strong theist: "I can't be 100% sure that God exists, but I live my life confident in the assumption that God does exist. It is almost inconceivable that my opinion on this could be changed."
Moderate theist: "God most probably exists. It would take a lot to change my mind."
Weak theist: "I believe God exists, but I'm not strongly committed to that view (e.g. I don't think about it much; I wouldn't really care if I turned out to be wrong.)"
Agnostic theist: "I don't know whether God exists, but I think it is more likely than not that he exists."
Truly undecided: "I can't decide whether God exists or not."
True agnostic: "I think that the question of whether or not God exists can never be answered by human beings."
Agnostic atheist: "I don't know whether God exists, but I think it is more likely than not that he does not exist."
Weak atheist: "I do not believe that God exists, but I'm not strongly committed to that view (e.g. I don't think about it much; I wouldn't really care if I turned out to be wrong.)"
Moderate atheist: "God most probably does not exist. It would take a lot to change my mind."
Strong atheist: "I can't be 100% sure that God does not exist, but I live my life confident in the assumption that God does not exist. It is almost inconceivable that my opinion on this could be changed."
Very strong atheist: "God certainly does not exist. There is no room for any doubt at all."
Repo Man
03-25-09, 08:53 AM
I chose agnostic atheist. I don't know if there is some underlying purpose to the cosmos, and I find it hard to believe that something as apparently insignificant as humans will ever know.
But I consider myself a strong atheist when it come to the gods of Christianity, Islam, the Greek and Roman gods, etc. Vain and petty deities whose behavior reflects that of the humans who created them.
Anti-Flag
03-25-09, 10:06 AM
Agnostic Atheist; Given that you can't know either way and the burden of proof is on the theists then until they prove gods existence I will continue to lack a belief in gods existence, except when it comes to those clearly defined gods invented by man that are in contradiction of themselves and provide logical paradoxes or illogical thinking. Pretty much what Repo said.
EDIT: I suppose I could take issue with the definitions provided as the first part of my statement qualifies me as a true agnostic, yet I remain a definate non-theist and I think by definition one is either theist or non-theist/atheist so I must therefore also be an atheist.
Allowing a possibility of God to exist and choosing it as a probable reason behind existence of everything, everyone, including myself allows me to not fear the outcome of my belief if God did exist after all, because if God does exist and I have belief in him, what for should I be punished for? And if God does exist and I did not believe in him, I am punishable for lack of belief in him.
jayleew
03-25-09, 10:18 AM
Interesting to see the final results of the poll. I'm glad to see some agnostic atheists like myself so I don't feel like im way off the beaten path sometimes.
Interesting to see the final results of the poll. I'm glad to see some agnostic atheists like myself so I don't feel like im way off the beaten path sometimes.
theists are usually beaten with a stick on this forum, most dont survive...and leave...so the results are just the atheists who know they got mucho supporters here. :rolleyes:
Anti-Flag
03-25-09, 10:21 AM
Allowing a possibility of God to exist and choosing it as a probable reason behind existence of everything, everyone, including myself allows me to not fear the outcome of my belief if God did exist after all, because if God does exist and I have belief in him, what for should I be punished for? And if God does exist and I did not believe in him, I am punishable for lack of belief in him.
Are you talking about Pascal's Wager? It has a lot of dependant factors involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
Anti-Flag
03-25-09, 10:26 AM
Interesting to see the final results of the poll. I'm glad to see some agnostic atheists like myself so I don't feel like im way off the beaten path sometimes.
Speaking from my own experience then from what I gather it's actually the most common form of atheism, but theists prefer you believe you're either atheist or agnostic. I'm sure they have their reasons.
Are you talking about Pascal's Wager? It has a lot of dependant factors involved.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
OMG :eek: I did not know such a thing existed...:eek: wow...I came up with this myself you know. Amazing.
Strong atheist, but I had trouble choosing between 'Strong atheist' and 'Moderate atheist'.
theobserver
03-25-09, 02:04 PM
what is this God you guys talking about? Unless someone mention that part, I wont know where I belong.
what is this God you guys talking about? Unless someone mention that part, I wont know where I belong.
I think you should pick "Truly undecided" :p
lightgigantic
03-25-09, 05:18 PM
Where do you fit on the belief-in-God scale?
With which of the following statements do you most agree?
Very strong theist: "God certainly exists. There is no room for any doubt at all."
Strong theist: "I can't be 100% sure that God exists, but I live my life confident in the assumption that God does exist. It is almost inconceivable that my opinion on this could be changed."
Moderate theist: "God most probably exists. It would take a lot to change my mind."
Weak theist: "I believe God exists, but I'm not strongly committed to that view (e.g. I don't think about it much; I wouldn't really care if I turned out to be wrong.)"
Agnostic theist: "I don't know whether God exists, but I think it is more likely than not that he exists."
Truly undecided: "I can't decide whether God exists or not."
True agnostic: "I think that the question of whether or not God exists can never be answered by human beings."
Agnostic atheist: "I don't know whether God exists, but I think it is more likely than not that he does not exist."
Weak atheist: "I do not believe that God exists, but I'm not strongly committed to that view (e.g. I don't think about it much; I wouldn't really care if I turned out to be wrong.)"
Moderate atheist: "God most probably does not exist. It would take a lot to change my mind."
Strong atheist: "I can't be 100% sure that God does not exist, but I live my life confident in the assumption that God does not exist. It is almost inconceivable that my opinion on this could be changed."
Very strong atheist: "God certainly does not exist. There is no room for any doubt at all."
depends how you sophistical you want to get with "certainty"
Another "what do you believe" poll! I like it.
It would be interesting to gather all the historical polls from the archives and do some kind of meta-analysis.
It would also be interesting to pick the best and make it an annual event.
Comparing this one's results so far to How certain is your opinion on God's existence? (May 2007), there is some indication that the atheist proportion of respondents is higher, but with more weight toward the middle ground.
depends how you sophistical you want to get with "certainty"
So choose how sophistical you want to get, then pick what fits best. :p
lightgigantic
03-25-09, 07:01 PM
So choose how sophistical you want to get, then pick what fits best. :p
That's the point
different degrees of sophistry make for different readings of the word "certainty"
The polls tells less of what people think about god and more the degree which they apply sophistry to the word "certainty".
IOW without an accepted indication/definition of what is considered "certain" (whether its the nose between your eyes or the date of independence or whatever), the poll simply reflects the participants views on the problems associated with radical certainty / radical uncertainty .
Yes, the participant's views of "certainty" are certainly (:p) one of the things reflected in the poll. No, that's obviously not the only thing reflected in the poll.
So, choose how sophistical you want to get and pick what fits best.
PsychoticEpisode
03-25-09, 08:18 PM
It's taken me a lifetime to shed the God sticky notes once stuck ito my brain from my early exposure to religious doctrine. I am more convince than ever that an ethereal, trans-dimensional, exo-universal God does not exist. God isn't even in the quantum fluctuation class.
I shall invoke the Certainty Principle at this time. The more I know about the location of God, the harder it gets to find Him.
It's taken me a lifetime to shed the God sticky notes once stuck ito my brain from my early exposure to religious doctrine. I am more convince than ever that an ethereal, trans-dimensional, exo-universal God does not exist. God isn't even in the quantum fluctuation class.
I shall invoke the Certainty Principle at this time. The more I know about the location of God, the harder it gets to find Him.
I don't believe you.
PsychoticEpisode
03-25-09, 08:32 PM
I don't believe you.
I believe you!
Am I the only one that has issue with the choices?
JamesR - you have tried to wrap both an epistemological and ontological stance on the same 1-dimensional scale... when you clearly need 2 dimensions.
You also seem to see "atheism" as the positive belief that God does not exist - which I disagree with.
I am an agnostic - in that I consider God (original cause etc) is an unknowable.
This would seem to put me as a "True Agnostic", right?
But then this speaks nothing at all of my ontological position regarding God.
I certainly do not have the belief that God exists. So I am an atheist, right?
I certainly lead my life as though God does not exist. So am I a "strong" atheist?
But this is because an unknowable object (e.g. my epistemological position on God) is logically akin to something that does not exist. (Note that this is not saying it does not exist, only that it is consistent with something that does not).
So, to sum, I am an agnostic. I do not have the theistic belief that God exists. I lead my life as though God is logically consistent with something that does not exist.
I consider myself an Agnostic Atheist (as I am both agnostic and not a theist) but I lead my life as a far stronger atheist than the description you have put for Agnostic Atheist.
So where should I put my vote?
phlogistician
03-26-09, 06:53 AM
There is no spectrum. It's binary. You either believe in god, or you are an atheist, period.
James R
03-26-09, 06:57 AM
Put your vote where you think it fits best in my imperfect poll, Sarkus.
If you think you can do better, be my guest and make your own poll.
James R
03-26-09, 06:58 AM
There is no spectrum. It's binary. You either believe in god, or you are an atheist, period.
Then, shall I put you down as "Very strong theist" or "Very strong atheist"?
Anti-Flag
03-26-09, 11:39 AM
Am I the only one that has issue with the choices?
JamesR - you have tried to wrap both an epistemological and ontological stance on the same 1-dimensional scale... when you clearly need 2 dimensions.
You also seem to see "atheism" as the positive belief that God does not exist - which I disagree with.
I am an agnostic - in that I consider God (original cause etc) is an unknowable.
This would seem to put me as a "True Agnostic", right?
But then this speaks nothing at all of my ontological position regarding God.
I certainly do not have the belief that God exists. So I am an atheist, right?
I certainly lead my life as though God does not exist. So am I a "strong" atheist?
But this is because an unknowable object (e.g. my epistemological position on God) is logically akin to something that does not exist. (Note that this is not saying it does not exist, only that it is consistent with something that does not).
So, to sum, I am an agnostic. I do not have the theistic belief that God exists. I lead my life as though God is logically consistent with something that does not exist.
I consider myself an Agnostic Atheist (as I am both agnostic and not a theist) but I lead my life as a far stronger atheist than the description you have put for Agnostic Atheist.
So where should I put my vote?
Agreed. I did put a small mention about it but if it helps Sarkus I was happy to go with agnostic atheist myself as true agnostic fails to convey that I am also an atheist, and strong atheist fails to convey my agnostic position on the subject. :shrug:
Strong atheist. I'm as certain that God is an unnecessary hypothesis as I am that the sun will rise tomorrow.
phlogistician
03-27-09, 05:12 AM
Then, shall I put you down as "Very strong theist" or "Very strong atheist"?
Neither. Plain old 'atheist' is all there is to say on the matter.
Saying 'strong atheist' is rather absurd, it's like saying 'I am strongly not a gerbil'.
I don't like baggage being attached to the term. It is beautiful in it's simplicity. Too often theists attach baggage to the term, and then snipe at their straw man. Let's not fall into this trap. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. Let's keep it simple, so theists can understand it.
Put your vote where you think it fits best in my imperfect poll, Sarkus.I tried but I find I fit with parts of too many of your classifications / descriptions and not sufficiently within any one of them. Therefore I abstain, as I wouldn't like to mislead anyone as to my position (which I set out previously).
And I have only just seen the "Not telling" option (my bad!) so i shall put my vote there, but more in the spirit of abstention.
Neither. Plain old 'atheist' is all there is to say on the matter.
Saying 'strong atheist' is rather absurd, it's like saying 'I am strongly not a gerbil'.
I don't like baggage being attached to the term. It is beautiful in it's simplicity. Too often theists attach baggage to the term, and then snipe at their straw man. Let's not fall into this trap. Atheism is simply a lack of belief. Let's keep it simple, so theists can understand it.
So you're a very strong atheist, then.
phlogistician
03-27-09, 10:41 AM
So you're a very strong atheist, then.
In the same way I'm a 'very strong not a gerbil'.
In the same way I'm a 'very strong not a gerbil'.
Phlog, just pick one dude. It obviously doesn't matter to you what 'kind of atheist' your are :p
In the same way I'm a 'very strong not a gerbil'.
Which is probably very strong. Gerbils have difficulty with cogency and keyboards.
phlogistician
03-28-09, 08:56 AM
Phlog, just pick one dude. It obviously doesn't matter to you what 'kind of atheist' your are :p
Ah, no, it matters a lot to me. I'm an atheist type of atheist. I don't recognise subdivisions, as I feel that's a theist tactic of dividing and conquering, which we should not be drawn into.
Ah, no, it matters a lot to me. I'm an atheist type of atheist. I don't recognise subdivisions, as I feel that's a theist tactic of dividing and conquering, which we should not be drawn into.
You know I agree with you on that :)
The terms in the poll are meaningless to me. I just picked one based on the sentence next to them in the OP. In my case: "I can't be 100% sure that God does not exist, but I live my life confident in the assumption that God does not exist. It is almost inconceivable that my opinion on this could be changed."
I have to say though that the explanations of 'Strong atheist' and 'Moderate atheist' look pretty much the same to me.
Belief in gods is irrelevant. Existence and non existence is not a matter of belief.
Hapsburg
04-06-09, 08:20 AM
Strong theist: "I can't be 100% sure that God exists, but I live my life confident in the assumption that God does exist. It is almost inconceivable that my opinion on this could be changed."
Moderate theist: "God most probably exists. It would take a lot to change my mind."
Somewhere between these two. I voted "strong theist" in the poll, but I'd prefer to strike the last sentence in your description. I am confident in the existence of the gods more than just "probably", but I am still open to changing my mind if given sufficient reason.
Additionally, I'd use "gods and related entities" rather than "God", since I am a polytheist.
Where's the option for "not swallowing theists claims of the supernatural" which is what it all boils down?
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