is it necessary to take showers everyday? [Archive]

chris4355

03-21-09, 04:54 AM

I broke my wrist about 2 months ago...

20 days later I got surgery done. I showered the day before the surgery, and went on 2 days recovering in bed, followed by another 3 days where my doctor did not recommend I showered just because I had stitches on in a thick cast, meaning I would sweat a lot and moisture is not good around new stitches, that and the fact that I could slip in the shower, holding my arm up would cause a strain on my shouder, and the heat will cause swelling, were all good reasons as to why I should not shower.

So ya, I admit it, I spent 6 days without showering, the idea of it disgusts me too lol.

I still have the cast on and taking a shower is such a pain in the ass that I do it every other day or so. Its not like I am anywhere as physically active at the moment so it doesnt matter.

But one thing that I noticed is that I feel fine. I no longer feel dirty about it, and to be honest I hung out with my friends on the 6th day and none of them even noticed or said anything.

So my question is... is this shower thing just a hype? Or could there really some serious health problems involved with avoiding showers... because so far it seems like there aren't any, and at the same time its such a waste of water when millions (or billions?) of people take showers everyday when they do not really need to.

to be honest I kinda lost the point of showering unless:
1) I am about to go out with a girl
2) I spent the whole day snowboarding or went to the gym, beach etc...
3) fell in a pile of shit

coming back from a long school day where I just sat on a desk? whats the point?:shrug:

inzomnia

03-21-09, 05:22 AM

Hi, I am sorry about your wrist, how is it now? I hope you get well soon.

About the shower thing, well, 2 years ago I visited the capital city of Nepal to do a project related with water infrastructure. People over there in general take shower only once a week (yes, once a week). The teachers at schools teach them to do so. This is because the supply of water in that area is less than the demand. Even when I stayed in hotel, there was very little water coming out in the shower, and it was only available between 6-8 AM, and between 5-7 PM (more or less 4 hours a day). They have got used to it for years, but surely the hygiene is relatively poor. I got itching everywhere on my body, perhaps my skin is a little sensitive, but then again the temperature was also quite hot.

In my opinion, if you do have access to water, you should do shower regularly, because when it comes to skin disease, you will lose more. If you are ill and hence unable to take shower routinely, maybe you could wipe your body with wet towel, avoiding the injured area. I think that it will not only make you clean, but also feel fresh.

In my home country, I took shower twice a day, because the daily temperature in my hometown is around 27-35 degrees whole year, so I did sweat a lot.

Here where I live now, I took shower twice a day just in the summer. For all other seasons, now I only take shower once per day, i.e. before I sleep. This is I learn from the Japanese people (my ex boss). In Japan, people only take shower before going to bed. In the morning, washing face and brushing teeth is sufficient. In addition to that, as I pray 5 times a day, I have to wash several part of my body 5 times a day as part of the ritual before praying (I have to wash hands until elbow, legs until calf, face, mouth, ears, and front hair). I find this quite effective.

draqon

03-21-09, 06:00 AM

I no longer feel dirty about it, and to be honest I hung out with my friends on the 6th day and none of them even noticed or said anything.

polite friends. :)

draqon

03-21-09, 06:03 AM

when I fell on my hand two months ago in January ... it was real bad, I had to get special x-large bandages with this material that speeds up healing. Well when I showered I just held my hand above the stream of water and than I carefully washed with the other the area around it.

However every three days I would open the bandage a bit and dry it up. One time I opened it up completely and poured alcohol 70% on it...the pain was excrutiating, but that did it. I suffice to say that alcohol really helps prevents bacteria and fungi from forming...so you might try it.

My wound healed completely and I cant even see it now. And it was real deep, up to the muscles.

draqon

03-21-09, 06:06 AM

coming back from a long school day where I just sat on a desk? whats the point?:shrug:

it does good things to the parasympathetic system of our body. Or in english terms, calms the nerves. My parasympathetic system is out of sync, because I used to spend weeks without showering...back when I was a bum and lived in a tent. But that was than, now that I shower every day, my parasympathetic system is all good and I no longer have the sideffects (like running nose constantly and allergic-like reactions).

draqon

03-21-09, 06:09 AM

About the shower thing, well, 2 years ago I visited the capital city of Nepal ...

I got itching everywhere on my body, perhaps my skin is a little sensitive....

It could also be as a result of low oxygen content...after all the capital of Nepal is located at altitude of 8km above sea level.

Bricoleur

03-21-09, 08:24 AM

My take on it is body odour, which is a relative thing. If you don't shower as often as those around you, it'll become an issue. If no-one showered, non-one would think you stink!:p
the nose gets immune to it.

draqon

03-21-09, 08:26 AM

solution: don't anyone shower!

cosmictraveler

03-21-09, 08:28 AM

Even birds shower daily.

Norsefire

03-21-09, 02:42 PM

I think yes. But really it depends on you: are you really physically active? If so, please do. Is your environment, well, disgusting? Then please do.

It depends on the individual.

shorty_37

03-21-09, 07:30 PM

It depends really on a few things.......Did I work out that day? Have sex that day?
Sweat my ass off cleaning the yard?

If none of the above I will forgo the shower everyday. I am lucky my hair still looks great a week after I wash it. I will take a shower and tie my hair up, because if I washed it everyday or every second, third day it would be like straw.

Orleander

03-21-09, 07:31 PM

I don't think a person needs to shower every day. It feels nice to, but needs to? no

draqon

03-21-09, 07:52 PM

I don't think a person needs to shower every day. It feels nice to, but needs to? no

what?! :eek: a woman says this? :bugeye: amazing...

Enmos

03-21-09, 07:57 PM

Is it necessary to take showers everyday?
No, but it'll help keep the flies at bay :p

visceral_instinct

03-21-09, 08:19 PM

shorty_37

03-21-09, 08:22 PM

Is yours curly? My hair is like that too, I think because it's soooo curly. It can be mildly greasy but just look more shiny than usual.

My hair is wavy if I let it dry on it's own. If I put mousse in it and scrunch it while it's wet it will dry curly. I wear it like that or I put a flat iron to it to make it straight. My hair takes about a week to start looking greasy. I love it because it would drive me nuts if I had to wash it everyday.

visceral_instinct

03-21-09, 08:23 PM

My hair is wavy if I let it dry on it's own. If I put mousse in it and scrunch it while it's wet it will dry curly. I wear it like that or I put a flat iron to it to make it straight. My hair takes about a week to start looking greasy. I love it because it would drive me nuts if I had to wash it everyday.

Mine too.

Grease isn't bad unless it actually smells. It just looks like serum.

shorty_37

03-21-09, 08:24 PM

Does it go really frizzy when it's damp or raining out? Mine goes nuts and I usually tie it in a ponytail on those days.

chris4355

03-22-09, 05:57 AM

I never knew hair gets oily if you don't use shampoo. Maybe I just didn't notice.

chris4355

03-22-09, 05:58 AM

Hi, I am sorry about your wrist, how is it now? I hope you get well soon.

its fine, thanks. got about 3 weeks left I think

whats your home country?

draqon

03-22-09, 06:00 AM

I never knew hair gets oily if you don't use shampoo. Maybe I just didn't notice.

yeah it does. ...tested...

draqon

03-22-09, 06:11 AM

whats your home country?

Indonasia, if I remember correctly.

inzomnia

03-22-09, 06:38 AM

chris4355

03-22-09, 01:44 PM

Yes, it is Indonesia. :) It's hot, but the humidity is also quite high, I guess it's above 75%, so when I sweat, the sweat doesn't go quickly. There is no way you don't take daily shower there.

Where do you live, Chris, and how is the temperature and humidity there?

I've moved around pretty much all my life, now I'm in Southern California... at least for the next 2-3 years. I think I'm heading to Canada or somewhere colder when I'm done.

I can't take those California summers, way too hot and dry.

inzomnia

03-22-09, 01:57 PM

So maybe that's why you didn't feel the need of much shower past few weeks, or?? I mean it was still winter. Good luck on moving to Canada.

visceral_instinct

03-22-09, 05:21 PM

Does it go really frizzy when it's damp or raining out? Mine goes nuts and I usually tie it in a ponytail on those days.

Yup, mine does that too. Looks like I got electrocuted.

shorty_37

03-22-09, 06:03 PM

Yup, mine does that too. Looks like I got electrocuted.

Ha Ha..... Me too. I can go out with perfectly straight hair but in high humidity I come back and it is frizzy and wavy. :shrug:

visceral_instinct

03-22-09, 06:05 PM

Same here. I used to keep mine shoulder length and straighten it...I gave up, every time the weather became slightly damp it just went back to its normal state.

shorty_37

03-22-09, 06:10 PM

My hair is down to about the middle of my back but layered more around my face.
When I had shorter hair I found myself in the Salon a lot more to keep the shape.
Now that it is long, not so much anymore. Now I just get it trimmed and highlights put in every 3-4 months and he thins it out with those scissors or it gets too bushy.

iceaura

03-22-09, 06:12 PM

When I worked at a tannery, unloading the incoming hides, I showered every day.

When I worked construction, blocktending and sheetrocking, I bathed every day (no shower available).

When I worked in a close office and teaching situation in daily contact close quarters with dozens of people, I usually showered every day.

When I drove for a living, when I hang around the house and don't get dirty, I just wash out the major joints before venturing into public, and shower when it would feel good.

Outside of public acceptability of one's crotch and armpits, the human body doesn't get itself dirty all that fast.

I have a suspicion that deoderents, in particular, can create a dependency something like sinus-clearing sprays and lip balms - that they kill the good bugs and enable recolonization by the bad ones, or something People I know who have quit using them for some reason - allergy, in particular - seem to smell pretty bad for a while regardless of soap and water. But people who never use them seem pretty normal, as long as soap and water is part of the routine.

Where I grew up, northern plains of the US, it was common for oldtimers who had to hand-pump and stove-heat their bathwater to go weeks - even all winter - without bathing. They didn't really smell that bad, IIRC, but every so often you'd hear a nurse at the emergency room mention that they had to cut some old guy's longjohns off him because his chest hair had grown into the wool weave. It was unusual enough to mention, but not unheard of. And they were in good health outside of the injury or whatever had landed them in the hospital.

inzomnia

03-22-09, 06:44 PM

Wow, you have done many types of works!

Where I grew up, northern plains of the US, it was common for oldtimers who had to hand-pump and stove-heat their bathwater to go weeks - even all winter - without bathing.

What I confuse is, why is that some men (if not most), their feet (and socks that wrap them) are always smell bad even if they took shower everyday? I notice this for example when I am invited into party where we had to remove our shoes and wearing only socks or bare foot (to keep the floor clean). I think there are more bacteria on their feet than that on their shoes :o

Billy T

03-22-09, 06:56 PM

Certainly a daily shower is not natural (That practice is only couple hundred years old, at most) and probably not as heathy as rarely washing, especially if soap is used as that removes the natural oils.

If you only washed without any soap once per month, or less frequently, I am sure you would have fewer colds and othe contagious illness. No one with one would come near you; but unless you can find someone with same POV, you may get very horny.

PS to inzomnia:
Shoe are very un-natural also. Definitely deform your feet and if in high heels often shorten your Achlies tendon.

Absane

03-23-09, 12:58 AM

To answer your question about showering... no. Just please don't smell.

My diet isn't so shitty that I can't go a few days without showering if I must. But I know of some people that smell horrible after missing only one shower.

Asguard

03-23-09, 01:07 AM

chris4355

03-23-09, 01:28 AM

Asguard

03-23-09, 01:49 AM

probably, we have a stupid love affair with water. Even inspite of evidence to the contrary people still act like it is an unlimited resorce to the point where the murry is dying because all the water has been used for things like city water (for adelaide and i think canbura) and irrigation

Asguard

03-23-09, 01:52 AM

the really stupid thing is that we apsolutly REFUSE to reuse water. There are treatment plants which are cleaning sewrage to dialisis standed (WELL above whats required for drinking water) and its being dumped in creeks to go out to sea or at best being used on gardens because people simply refuse to alow it to be put into the normal water surplie. So the tax payers money on the plants is wasted and we are spending MORE money on desalination plants which use more energy and have greater ecological side effects.

Shear idiocy

chris4355

03-23-09, 02:03 AM

That sucks, I was not aware of that. In the US we don't even know where the hell our tap water comes from in the first place so its not an issue. =D

Waters running out across the world, and that's fact, I am sure once it becomes more apparent and the supply starts decreasing. They will opt for treatment plants. Money talks.

Or maybe I am being a little too optimistic.

cosmictraveler

03-23-09, 04:33 AM

When I shower I always just get myself wet, then turn off the water, lather up then turn the shower on again to rinse the soap away. That way I save allot of fresh water whenever I do shower which is at least once a day and sometimes twice , depending upon how much work I do or if I just feel dirty. I also sometimes use deodorant whenever I am going to go out to avoid that body odor that we all have at times. I also use cologne to have a "fresh" smell about me, not to strong but just light enough to know it is there. I like Cool Water and Baby Blue Jeans myself.

John99

03-23-09, 07:11 AM

honestly i can go for weeks without a shower and i dont use deodorant or shaving cream. as a matter of fact i have not used deodorant or shaving cream for ten years. that is the truth. i do shave but then i use soap with no added ingredients or sometimes i just shave without soap. i hurts to shave like that sometimes but i just cant use shaving creme.

Absane

03-23-09, 09:12 AM

That sucks, I was not aware of that. In the US we don't even know where the hell our tap water comes from in the first place so its not an issue. =D

I live in Atlanta, GA. Most of us should know where our water originates because every year we are in a new drought. They will always start off the news of this drought by saying Lake Lanier is 15 feet below full and that the Chattahoochee river is drying up (and full of toxic substances).

It really sucks that we have millions of people living in an area totally dependent on a man-made lake initially designed for flood control.

Billy T

03-23-09, 09:38 AM

I live in Atlanta, GA. ...What part? I have daughter who lives in the NE I visit in July.

Absane

03-23-09, 09:59 AM

What part? I have daughter who lives in the NE I visit in July.

I live in Decatur... but the far west part. So, I just say I live around NE Atlanta as well. If you want to come kill me, I'm 1/2 a mile off the N Druid Hills exit.

Challenger78

03-23-09, 10:06 AM

My record for not showering is about 4 weeks.
That was of course, when I was consistently traveling. So Instead of a full shower, I'd wash body parts that were filthy.

However. In a nutshell

It depends on what you do during the day. If you sweat alot, then yes. If not, as long as you keep wearing fresh clothes and shower once a week, then you don't have to shower every day.
Also, different people emit different levels of smell,so if you radiate whatever you had for breakfast. yeah, you should shower.

But not showering every day isn't life threatening, neither is not showering every month. If it was, homeless people would all die out by now.

Challenger78

03-23-09, 10:08 AM

No, but it'll help keep the flies at bay :p

Actually, Flies are attracted to the smell of soap and the colour of your skin, unless it's perfectly transparent or grey.

madanthonywayne

03-23-09, 11:29 AM

polite friends. :)
I agree with Dragon. Your friends, no doubt, realize that showering with a cast is difficult and so are putting up with your offensive odor. I know from personal experience with aupairs (like nannys) that came from Europe (where a daily shower is, apparently, not so common) they would stink. I'd have to tell them that, while in the US, a daily shower was mandatory.

cosmictraveler

03-23-09, 12:08 PM

Actually, Flies are attracted to the smell of soap and the colour of your skin, unless it's perfectly transparent or grey.

flies are natural 'de composers' often looking for a place to lay eggs.
they also feed on nectar's so are often attracted to something sweet
possibly perfumes. any substance that emanate gasses and oders
of degeneration (rotting) wil also attract them.
Source(s):
USC Irvine, entomology

iceaura

03-23-09, 02:12 PM

Certainly a daily shower is not natural (That practice is only couple hundred years old, at most) and probably not as heathy as rarely washing, especially if soap is used as that removes the natural oils. I'd bet that a daily swim, and frequent rainwashing etc, is perfectly natural and physically best.

Humans really like to bathe. They'll break ice to go swimming, build little catchponds for water right inside their houses just to sit in, etc.

Enmos

03-23-09, 03:16 PM

Actually, Flies are attracted to the smell of soap
Huh ? Do you have a source ?

chris4355

03-23-09, 03:53 PM

I agree with Dragon. Your friends, no doubt, realize that showering with a cast is difficult and so are putting up with your offensive odor. I know from personal experience with aupairs (like nannys) that came from Europe (where a daily shower is, apparently, not so common) they would stink. I'd have to tell them that, while in the US, a daily shower was mandatory.

lol. I can assure you my friends would comment on it regardless. we are quite blunt with each other.

I actually told them a week later and they were surprised.

Billy T

03-23-09, 05:12 PM

I'd bet that a daily swim, and frequent rainwashing etc, is perfectly natural and physically best. ...I do not know, but bet that 200 or more years ago at least 2 of every 3 could not even swim. Perhaps someone good at searching will tell us?

One of the strange things I liked about Cornell back when I was an undergrad there was swiming the length of the pool was a graduation requirement, if you could not produce a doctor's certificate excusing you. I doubt it still is as most going there now can swim.

MacGyver1968

03-23-09, 06:56 PM

Here's something I've always wondered...Does washing with soap everyday increase the amount of oil your skin and hair follicles produce? A couple of years ago, my water was shut off for almost 3 months, due to a really big water leak I could not afford to fix. My parents only live a couple of blocks down the road, so I did all my showering there, or at my gym. I went from showering everyday to once or twice a week, and I noticed my hair and skin didn't seem to get as greasy as quickly when I was showering less. Now that I'm back to showering everyday, if I don't shower on the weekends, I get really greasy, very quickly.

My friend was in Desert Storm, and he said they would go weeks without showering..he said eventually you just started smelling like the desert.

chris4355

03-24-09, 12:57 AM

inzomnia

03-25-09, 02:13 AM

inzomnia you shower twice a day?

your kidding, if all australians did that we would be in an even worse situation as far as water surplies are concerned than we already are. 3 min showers once a day is the MAX the goverment wants us to have (to the point that they keep sending stupid little water times out to everyone)

I used to shower twice a day (in Indonesia), now I just take shower once a day. Indonesia has quite high average annual rainfall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia), around 1,780–3,175 mm in lowlands, and up to 6,100 mm in mountainous regions. On the other hand, Australia has just around 300-700 mm average annual rainfall (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/rain.shtml), with exception of Tully, Queensland, which is up to 4000 mm. Therefore, I am allowed to shower more often than you :D j/k

I only shower twice a day in summer (in Germany), because sometimes it's too hot and make my nose bleeding. But I normally take shower just quickly (I guess less than 5 minutes) except when I wash my hair.

Gotta go to Uni, ciao for now!

Asguard

03-25-09, 03:22 AM

the dam indonesian's are stealing our rain:p
i am writing to kevin rudd to suggest we invade to get out rain back:p

John99

03-25-09, 08:51 AM

they have Komodo Dragons too.

http://news.aol.com/article/komodo-dragons-attack/357526

'Its saliva contains roughly 50 different known bacteria strains, so infection is a risk'

Anti-Flag

03-25-09, 11:39 AM

they have Komodo Dragons too.

http://news.aol.com/article/komodo-dragons-attack/357526

'Its saliva contains roughly 50 different known bacteria strains, so infection is a risk'

Infection???? Yeh, great big killer lizard and infection is what I'm really going to be concerned about! :p

iceaura

03-25-09, 03:45 PM

I do not know, but bet that 200 or more years ago at least 2 of every 3 could not even swim. To find what is "natural", in the sense of physical adaptation, 200 years ago would not be the right time frame.

The correlation of non-swimming with disease and general misery argues better the other way.

We have no historical records from the right time for observing our natural physical environment, but it almost certainly involved a lot of wading and swimming. Look at your feet.

Billy T

03-25-09, 04:20 PM

To find what is "natural", in the sense of physical adaptation, 200 years ago would not be the right time frame. ...You said swimming was "natural" - Iwas only pointing out it is only very recently that mankind in general has been swimming. Now many, if not most, men use a fork or chop stick tool to put food, but I would not say that is natural. Likewise any activity that has been recently introduced has no claim to being "natural" - For example flying airplanes is not a natural activity of mankind.

I fail to see your point about 200 years not being the "right time frame." Any activity "A" introduce only during the last 50,000 years would seem to me to refute the claim that activity "A" is natural to man. For a more marginal acivity, I think one could argue that growing cerials in cultivated fields is not a natural activity of man. I was only refuting your claim that swimming is natural to mankind. I will however admit that occasionally a few men fell in a river or lake and managed to get out without drowning. It would be informative to know when mankind first made boats - probably some men soon thereafter intentional swam.

iceaura

03-25-09, 05:45 PM

I fail to see your point about 200 years not being the "right time frame." Because what people were doing 200 years ago has no better claim to what is "natural" than what they are doing right now.
Any activity "A" introduce only during the last 50,000 years would seem to me to refute the claim that activity "A" is natural to man. And I was pointing out that we have reasonable evidence swimming and wading were common activities of humans since before they were humans - let alone a mere 50k years ago. Again - look at your paddle-webbed feet (and fingers), your esophageal tract and nasal/laryngeal morphology, the layer of fat all over your body, the down-turned nose, the strange sweat gland setup, etc.

And look at where humans live - if you take a map of the world and put a black dot on it for every thousand people, you'll have the oceans and lakes and rivers outlined in black. You'd swear we were mapping seal colonies.

And how human children like to play. At the beach, if possible. Overlooking or near water, second best. If all else fails, get a hose and fill plastic pond in the back yard, or a box of beach-like sand with some buckets of water to make little rivulets. People even construct little ponds of water inside their houses, to sit in and "bathe". Their pets don't use them much - outside of pet ducks, pet beavers or muskrats, pet fish or turtles, or other animals as water-oriented as people are.

It would be informative to know when mankind first made boats - probably some men soon thereafter intentional swam. The first man made boat almost certainly predates agriculture by tens of thousands of years.

Billy T

03-25-09, 07:15 PM

Because what people were doing 200 years ago has no better claim to what is "natural" than what they are doing right now. Agreed, but I referred to ALL OF PRIOR human history not just to some brief period 200 years ago when defining what is "natural to mankind."
And I was pointing out that we have reasonable evidence swimming and wading were common activities of humans since before they were humans - let alone a mere 50k years ago. Again - look at your paddle-webbed feet (and fingers), your esophageal tract and nasal/laryngeal morphology, the layer of fat all over your body, the down-turned nose, the strange sweat gland setup, etc. wading is not swimming. Nose turns down on almost all creatures that have one, including those that never swam in their entire evolutionary history, becuase the rain falls down. The esophageal tract and nasal/laryngeal morphology is so we can talk. It evolved with that ability - a 6 month or less baby still has the same esophageal tract and nasal/laryngeal morphology as an ape (can breath and swallow mothers milk at the same time)

Many apes have learned to communicate via various symbolic means and even understand grammer and do create new words, etc. but none can speak because their esophageal tract and nasal/laryngeal morphology does not change the in the first year of life like ahuman's does. Our ability to sweat over entire body is probably a result of fact we could then run most dog like and others faster small animals into heat exhaustion and then eat them. A "natural human" (one who has run all his life from early child hood - only an Ethiopean now days) can run all day long under the hot sun as humans have the best cooling system of almost all the animals. A horse / zebra can also sweet all over his body, but an Ethiopean in good shape can run after him until the horse/ zebra collapses. None of these features is related to swimming as you seem to think.

And look at where humans live - if you take a map of the world and put a black dot on it for every thousand people, you'll have the oceans and lakes and rivers outlined in black. You'd swear we were mapping seal colonies. That is because human learned to use boats and rafts and water ways were the only means of travel with cargo where trees can grow prior to the invention of he saw. I have read parts of the contract for US route 40 (also called the national pike as was first road to the west) The road building contract thru Maryland specified that the tree stumps could only stick up one foot, it had to be wide enough for two waggons to pass, etc. Water transport, not swimming desires, located the cities as you describe.

And how human children like to play. At the beach, if possible. Overlooking or near water, second best. If all else fails, get a hose and fill plastic pond in the back yard, or a box of beach-like sand with some buckets of water to make little rivulets. People even construct little ponds of water inside their houses, to sit in and "bathe". Their pets don't use them much - outside of pet ducks, pet beavers or muskrats, pet fish or turtles, or other animals as water-oriented as people are. all very recent activities comnpared to the evolutionary time scale for for natural things to become part of man's nature.

The first man made boat almost certainly predates agriculture by tens of thousands of years.Is that only your speculation, or do you have some reason to think that true? Reference please.

Asguard

03-25-09, 08:38 PM

billy i hate to refute you sgain but how do you explain the fact that the majority of our brain is a substance we cant make and is only found in abundance in shellfish

Billy T

03-25-09, 10:13 PM

billy i hate to refute you sgain but how do you explain the fact that the majority of our brain is a substance we cant make and is only found in abundance in shellfishI do not know what it is you are "refuting" but no matter what that might be - demanding me to explain something is not a refutation of anything. What statement of mine are you trying to refute?

Asguard

03-25-09, 11:40 PM

iceaura

03-26-09, 01:49 AM

Is that only your speculation, or do you have some reason to think that true? Reference please. About the boatbuilding - the world was well colonized, including Australia and both North and South America as well as various islands, before agriculture was invented anywhere that we know of. Now it's barely possible to do that without boats, even Australia 40ky ago, but it's hardly the way to bet. And several non-agricultural peoples have boatbuilding traditions of great sophistication and obvious longevity - the Arctic kayaks and umiaks and such are not the product of a couple of generations of screwing around. They are extraordinary craft. (Those people seldom swim, in the ice water they have nearby. But they hang around the water, like most everybody else)

And these ancient people are found, as always with non-agricultural people whether city-dwelling or not, to have been hanging around the shore of some body of water. If ease of transport explains that, we have boats. If proximity to good living conditions explains that, we have a wading, fishing, clam and lobster eating little descendant of chimps with every reason to get up on two flatter feet and grow longer legs.

wading is not swimming. Wading will do, if you insist on one without the other for some reason Nose turns down on almost all creatures that have one, including those that never swam in their entire evolutionary history, So why do humans have noses at all - unlike, say, a dog or a horse - or a chimpanzee. The esophageal tract and nasal/laryngeal morphology is so we can talk. It evolved with that ability Chicken and egg problem. The thing has to be up and running much as is to help us talk, and we have to be talking somewhat for any advantage to accrue to the early stages of such a weird modification. Meanwhile, analoguous structural differences are found in comparing seals with dogs - and seals did not acquire theirs from their dog ancestors by learning to talk. Our ability to sweat over entire body is probably a result of fact we could then run most dog like and others faster small animals into heat exhaustion and then eat them. I prefer the long range scavenging in the heat hypothesis - if only because it avoids another chicken and egg business, and dovetails better with rock tool adoption - but it's worth noting that this fat layer we carry works against us there.
all very recent activities comnpared to the evolutionary time scale for for natural things to become part of man's nature. Recent activities that seem to be the latest responses to very old and universal desires. I tend to think ubiquitous childrens' preferences illustrate human nature - or would a preference for playing at the lakeshore, or in the pool, with an entire yard and miles of woods available, for example, be a recent development in children ?

This guy, btw, has a collection of criticisms of the notion of the water-adapted chimp ancestor: http://www.aquaticape.org/index.html I think he's occasionally wrong, but hey -

Challenger78

03-26-09, 05:44 AM

Huh ? Do you have a source ?

See cosmic.
I love passing the buck.

But it makes sense. Flies are insects and hence are attracted to any sweet smell whatsoever.

Billy T

03-26-09, 11:10 AM

that there is no evidence for humans being aquatic or subaquatic mamals. There actually is and that evidence is in our brains which are made up of mostly "essential fatty acids". These are things we cant make and a land based diet is very low in them as well so its highly unlikly that our brains would have developed the way they have if the only source of these was land plants and animals. ...Are you speaking of the fatty gila and swan cells that wrap around the axons? I think (almost sure) that strickly herbavors, like wildabeast and zebras have them too to insulate their axons (and speed conduction velocites by lowering the capactance that only the thin cell wall would have.), so I find this hard to believe. - Comments?

Anyway this thread has gotten out of hand. In post 53 I questioned (asked for ref.) iceaura’s post 48 statement:
“I'd bet that a daily swim … is perfectly natural”

I did not question fact that mankind in early evolution went wadding to get food (I know he did.) or say anything about him being (or not) an "aquatic animal” or not eating shell fish, (I know he did and all sorts of bugs and worms.) etc.

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BTW I know from personnel experience that typically you get more food with a stick scratching / digging in the shore line sand than by wadding.* – I was on a Ferry in Puget Sound with my only my back pack when it pulled into a simple dock of a small island. After confirming with crew that this was routine and would occur the next day etc., on an impulse I got off. (I first checked my compact emergency survival kit. – One I had developed in years of wandering around in Europe and found there were still many matches in it so could build fires to attract passing small boats if that proved to be false. It had a wire saw coiled up in it and knife** with about 4 or 5 inch blade (with fish scalar and bottle opener on one edge) and some insect repellent too.)

The ferry did return, but only after three days, in which I lived on berries (it was summer) and hot coals roasted clams. I boiled water from a small pond / large puddle in some beer cans I found so did not need to use my halizone tables. I also boiled the claims. I almost killed a snake, (to eat it) but it got away. I caught nothing with my fish hooks and coil of line.
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*Wadding is good way to catch fish, at least tiny ones, by hand in small clear stream but that island did not have a stream and the shore was too steep. I do not know why there were no crabs of any sort.

** To keep my kit quite compact, the blade could be pulled out of the handle when stored. Even my toothbrush had only a short stub of the handle with end fire polished smooth. I still have that kit, but have not used it for 30 years and the wire saw has been lost or finally broke. – I forget.