Drug Fun!

[Mr. Hamtastic]

I was on Effexor. Works great. One small problem. My Dr. got worried because it made my heart rate increase to 150 bpm resting. Are there any chemically similar drugs or herbs or anything that maybe won't do the heart rate?

[Liebling]

You could try Cymbalta, it's working very well for a friend of mine who was on a Paxil/Zoloft rotation for years. I am assuming you are taking it for anxiety/depression, though. If so, you could try that.

Stay away from Paxil, I have four friends who took it and all ended up getting the shakes really bad, and the one who switched to Cymbalta still has shakes and now mild seizures from years of being on Paxil. And it took her doctor 4 months to wean her off Paxil too, because taking someone right off it can kill them. :eek:

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Yeah, that's how most drugs are. I will try it when I get settled, because Wellbutrin isn't doing a thing.

[Liebling]

Wellbutrin made me feel great ( I was taking it as a prophylactic for migraines) but I was also on a cortisone stim-pak for another problem and it masked an allergic reaction I was having to the Wellbutrin and as soon as I was coming off the steroids, I had hives from head to toe and my throat was closing up. I was on benedryl and cortisone for two weeks until all of the wellbutrin was out of my system. Not fun. And coming off the Wellbutrin was a nightmare. I've never been suicidal in my life, but driving home I was so distraught I thought about driving my car into a bridge pylon. I called my family right away and told them something was wrong with me, and they came to get me. Was the worst feeling in my life, and I couldn't control where my thoughts were going. It was very scary.

That was the last time the doctor prescribed anti-depressants for my migraines.

It did give me a unique perspective on depression and how it actually feels, and made me understand and sympathize with people more. Wellbutrin changed my life, but not how it was supposed to.

[cosmictraveler]

Yeah, that's how most drugs are. I will try it when I get settled, because Wellbutrin isn't doing a thing.

What is the dosage? Why not inmcrease it or take it twice a day to see what happens?

I take it along with Lithium, 500 Mg.

[Enmos]

It never seizes to amaze me how many people are on drugs..

[cosmictraveler]

It never seizes to amaze me how many people are on drugs..

What astounds me is that there should be more people taking prescribed medications instead of drinking alcohol to take away their problems. Alcoholism is a very widespread problem everywhere in the world that sells alcohol and many drink to escape into a drug induced catatonic state to avoid dealing with what really troubles them through professional means.

[visceral_instinct]

@Liebling: A cortisone stim-pak? What exactly are those? Like an IV line?

[Enmos]

Stimpack ? Cool :D

[Enmos]

What astounds me is that there should be more people taking prescribed medications instead of drinking alcohol to take away their problems. Alcoholism is a very widespread problem everywhere in the world that sells alcohol and many drink to escape into a drug induced catatonic state to avoid dealing with what really troubles them through professional means.

Perhaps, but I think doctors prescribe drugs to soon.

[visceral_instinct]

That's what I thought! :)

[draqon]

I am clean. My mind is pure. I take no drugs.

[cosmictraveler]

I am clean. My mind is pure. I take no drugs.

You are still young but wait until you become older, if no one destroys you first, then you will understand what I am talking about. Your entire system starts to fail you in your 50's and you will need help then but in your 60's you will be on many things and if you make 70's then you will be really needing help.

[draqon]

I will go the Japanese way, live after 90 years of age, and be in great health.

[cosmictraveler]

I will go the Japanese way, live after 90 years of age, and be in great health.

I can only hope you a long life that is free of any discomfort but everyones bodies do start to deteriorate after 50.

[Ladicius]

I'm not convinced that drugs, corrupt so to say the mind? Still I'd never take it because knowing that I've undergone aftificial happiness that I can't surpass naturally, would slump me into a depression. Same goes for alchol.

[Absane]

Why do people feel the need to take drugs when they should just accept the fact that they suck at life?

In all honesty I was on Paxil for a period of time... for "anxiety." I talked really fast, fumbled over my own words, tried to do everything too fast, etc. I am still this way, but it's not from anxiety... it's just how my brain is wired... it's fast. Under normal living conditions I am the guy doing 90 on the interstate when everyone else is going 50 because of traffic.

Getting off Paxil was a bitch that I never want to relive. Just imagine feeling electric shocks throughout your whole body every minute for 3 weeks... yes... it sucked hardcore. And the only thing Paxil did to me was make me apathetic to the world around me.

[draqon]

Absane's example of use of Paxil or any so called anti-depressant and/or anti-anxiety medications as just a wrong way to deal with life.

[Stryder]

Most drugs are prescribed as a "band aid" for a problem which a so called "professional" can't handle.

A normal human brain functions under the assumption that:
A fully complemented diet is provided (Covering full nutrition).
Approximately 8 hours of total sleep per day.
Sleep occurs during the night and waking is done in the morning.
Personal hygiene is high. (Having shower, washing hair and brushing teeth regularly)
No poisons or abuses (No smoking, heavy drinking or indulgences of Caffeine or sugar. Also environmental poisons should be listed, i.e. if you working as a welder will subject you to various gases that aren't healthy in the long run).
At least 30 minutes of Exercise a day. (Enough to get your heart pumping and increasing your breathing)


If a person was able to deal with all the above appropriately, then they should have less or no "Physical" neurological problems.

However this doesn't cover "psychological" problems which aren't just manifested by a persons own logical or illogical thinking, but dealing with other people. (i.e. a kid being bullied can result in a person being dis-attached, depressed and submissive/shy.)

What's annoying is that so called professionals (e.g. doctors) tend to get their diagnosis little mixed up with the Physical and Psychological symptom's resulting in their "prescriptions" being wrong.

To put it simply, if you have a Physical neurological problem, then you should at the very least have a CAT scan. This would allow doctors to observe the neurological action that's the problem and identify it to be actually physical. Where as if it's completely psychological, then it's actually better to try and work out the problems that ail you, since the human brain is capable of adapting to deal with things.

(e.g. If you are depressed because you don't have a job, Get up in the mornings at the same time other people go to work, during the day try looking for work, or use online training methods to increase your skills, look for education in colleges or seek employment actively. Don't just sit depressing yourself that you haven't a job, get out and get one. Be active about it.)

I'd suggest a person's neurochemistry is a very volatile balance, which is why is best to try and deal with it by thinking around obstacles than just drugging yourself, since those drugs medicate the whole brain (and body) not just the area that could be deemed a problem and is the cause of the many nasty side effects.

(Incidentally most Psychiatric drugs will generate Chemical dependency, this is because you are dealing with the brains synthesis of many chemicals and the drugs you take can increase or decrease certain chemical productions. So quitting a drug isn't as easy as throwing a scrap of paper into a rubbish bin.)

If you have to take a drug, always ask about the known side effects of any drug. This is not just because doctors have a habit of leaving out that information, but because you need to make sure they are truly competent in prescribing a drug that they have already administered before and know the types of reaction, rather than using you as a human guinea pig outside of the Nuremberg Code.

[Asguard]

stryder, with respect.

Please dont talk about what you have no idea about, you may be a great computer programer but you have no experiance in mental health and im sorry but atitudes like that cost lives.

[phlogistician]

stryder, with respect.

Please dont talk about what you have no idea about, you may be a great computer programer but you have no experiance in mental health and im sorry but atitudes like that cost lives.

Oh dear. It's you that doesn't know what they are talking about. Stryder has been there, done that, and has the tee-shirt.

It's far easier to give someone a pill to pop, than to address the lifestyle and health points Stryder mentions. People don't like being told to eat better, and exercise more. To cut out the booze and caffeine, and sleep properly. But give them a pill?

I'm with Stryder on this, I see too many people with problems they could solve with common sense. People who should know better too.

[Stryder]

stryder, with respect.

Please dont talk about what you have no idea about, you may be a great computer programer but you have no experiance in mental health and im sorry but atitudes like that cost lives.

Asguard,
Psychiatric doctors giving prescriptions is more of a threat to lives. You see those drugs do have side effects and often people aren't told about them, they find out for themselves. When a person is placed onto medication enough to make them drool, shuffle and be unable to even put a jumper on, they think more about their untimely demise and become depressed adding to the problem not removing it.

The point is that any artificial drugs is meant to increase chemical reactions in the brain, however the amount they increase it by isn't regulated based upon a localised effect. It's "hit and miss" in regards to dosage and effect.

[Liebling]

It is hit and miss, but that doesn't mean it doesn't significantly improve the quality of life for the people taking them if a good balance is found. You try something and it doesn't work, you try something else.

My thirteen year old is bipolar, with paranoid schizophrenic tendencies as well. He's been on medication since he was eight, when he was hospitalized in a mental facility for trying to stab another child, writing obsessive and threatening notes to a female student and then trying to hang himself. He was eight. No reason for it, he's had a very stable life with lots of love and affection and no violence or inconsistency in the home. I know because I have had many home visits from psychiatrists and behavioral specialists as well as being extensively psychologically tested myself. He's tried to step in front of cars, he's cruel to anyone smaller than he is, was failing school and causing trouble there, the teachers were even afraid of him. One minute he was balling, the next he was raging at people... at least he was like this until he got put on one of the drugs you seem to think you understand and are discouraging people from taking. We found the right balance for my child, and now he's not at all violent, is doing very well in school, still has some minor issues with stealing things but he's not harming himself or others, he's not being as obsessive as he was, and he's actually smiling. I can tell when he doesn't take his meds in the morning, because by the evening, he's agitated and moody. His father (my first husband) was exactly the same way, but all grown up and it's definitely a chemical imbalance in his brain that causes it, because it is fixed when he is on the medication.

There are millions of people like my son, both milder and more extreme examples that are being helped by the drugs you are vilifying. It's not junk science, and some of those people would easily harm themselves or others if they were not on medication. To say that the drugs aren't important is to not understand the problem or the people having issues.

On the medication, my son is a functioning member of all of his social units, without them... he'll be in a jumpsuit... but whether it will be a psychiatric facility or jail would be anyone's guess.

You simply cannot just dismiss those kinds of drugs just because they have side effects because of the quality of life it gives my child and millions of other people like my child.

[Enmos]

Asguard,
Psychiatric doctors giving prescriptions is more of a threat to lives. You see those drugs do have side effects and often people aren't told about them, they find out for themselves. When a person is placed onto medication enough to make them drool, shuffle and be unable to even put a jumper on, they think more about their untimely demise and become depressed adding to the problem not removing it.

The point is that any artificial drugs is meant to increase chemical reactions in the brain, however the amount they increase it by isn't regulated based upon a localised effect. It's "hit and miss" in regards to dosage and effect.

Not to mention antibiotic resistance.. to keep it general.

[visceral_instinct]

Shit, Liebling, I'm sorry. Glad he is doing well now.

[inzomnia]

I think Stryder refered to the self-induced neurological problems. These things on the list:




A normal human brain functions under the assumption that:
A fully complemented diet is provided (Covering full nutrition).
Approximately 8 hours of total sleep per day.
Sleep occurs during the night and waking is done in the morning.
Personal hygiene is high. (Having shower, washing hair and brushing teeth regularly)
No poisons or abuses (No smoking, heavy drinking or indulgences of Caffeine or sugar. Also environmental poisons should be listed, i.e. if you working as a welder will subject you to various gases that aren't healthy in the long run).
At least 30 minutes of Exercise a day. (Enough to get your heart pumping and increasing your breathing)


If a person was able to deal with all the above appropriately, then they should have less or no "Physical" neurological problems.



if they are ignored, surely will disturb the body function. For this, prevention is better than curing because it can minimize the side-effect of taking drugs. There are however cases like Liebling's son (I am sorry to hear that, Liebling) or like my brother (who had neck infection), where drugs are best alternative. Thanks to the medication! :)

[Liebling]

But Stryder ignores and even rejects the idea that people have actual chemical imbalances that cause these problems even if all of those things were met. Because I go to a bipolar/paranoid schizophrenic support group, I know that there is nothing that they can do to chemically balance themselves. When it comes to issues so serious like that, you cannot understand unless you are directly effected by it. Until you see the night and day difference in the person. I doubt that at eight years old, a child can really manifest loads of specific psychological symptoms because he wants to be medicated.

There is a woman I know who has many children and three of them are bipolar. Her four year old tried to jump out a window at school to "avoid hurting people" because he knew he couldn't control it himself.

Sometimes, there are chemical brain functions that can be out of whack, and no amount of following the list Stryder gave will solve their problems. To tell people that it's all they have to do to feel better is negligent and unsympathetic. It's cruel because it makes already vulnerable people feel like there is something very wrong with them that they should be able to fix themselves. It's a huge blow to the self-esteem to feel like you are trying really hard and should be able to overcome your issues because someone says something like that to them, but they can never reach that goal and it defeats them yet again.

Bottom line is that if you haven't studied psychiatry, you really shouldn't be doling out advise on a forum about psychiatry.

[phlogistician]

But Stryder ignores and even rejects the idea that people have actual chemical imbalances that cause these problems even if all of those things were met.

Where did he say that? He said;

If a person was able to deal with all the above appropriately, then they should have less or no "Physical" neurological problems.

(emphasis mine)

Nowhere did he reject anything. Perhaps it would help if you read other people's posts before criticising them.

[Liebling]

Where did he say that? He said;



(emphasis mine)

Nowhere did he reject anything. Perhaps it would help if you read other people's posts before criticising them.

He said they should have less or none at all. And then went on to say that medicines are too dangerous to be of much benefit because it's too "hit and miss".

The point is that any artificial drugs is meant to increase chemical reactions in the brain, however the amount they increase it by isn't regulated based upon a localised effect. It's "hit and miss" in regards to dosage and effect.

I can take bits and pieces of almost any post and make it out of context.

Don't you think that saying that to a person who has real chemical imbalances, says, "Hey, you can be normal if you just do these things." gives them an unattainable goal and can lead to a further decline of their self-esteem?

But you are right, he didn't completely reject it. But the problem with bipolars is that they don't think they have a problem, and they often will find any reason at all to not take drugs. Some of them need to be medicated. Britney Spears is a good case in point, my son is another. I have no doubt that my son would have killed himself by now had he gone unmedicated and/or followed Stryders advice.

[phlogistician]

Don't you think that saying that to a person who has real chemical imbalances, says, "Hey, you can be normal if you just do these things." gives them an unattainable goal and can lead to a further decline of their self-esteem?

Go read what he said again. You are assuming too much, and reading too little.

[Liebling]

Or, I have a unique perspective into the brain of a chemically imbalanced person and I am assuming nothing. I have sat through many classes and seminars that teach you the opposite of what he said. That you shouldn't suggest that proper diet, excercise and sleep for chemically imbalanced people will help them solve their problems and only leads to further depression and feelings of self-loathing. In the case of chemically imbalanced people, it helps very little in the big picture.

Perhaps you aren't reading enough of what I posted and are just being willful.

[visceral_instinct]

Just having a healthy lifestyle won't do it if you're lacking some necessary brain chemical or have too much of one. Duh.

[Enmos]

Just having a healthy lifestyle won't do it if you're lacking some necessary brain chemical or have too much of one. Duh.

Or too little.
Actually, I guess that having a good lifestyle might prevent a chemical imbalance in some cases.
For example, if your lifestyle is causing you stress (either on a conscious level or not), some neurotransmitters may increase or decrease. Keep this up a long time and it might screw up your brain chemistry.

I don't have any particular knowledge about this stuff though, nor did I look it up.

[visceral_instinct]

Some of these disorders are genetic, though.

[Enmos]

Some of these disorders are genetic, though.

Well, I did say "in some cases" ;)

[Liebling]

Some of these disorders are genetic, though.

They are indeed genetic. My first husband was severely bipolar. He bounces around from jail to psych ward right now because he refuses to get meds.

[visceral_instinct]

Oh, man...I'm sorry to hear that. That must be hard to deal with.

[draqon]

They are indeed genetic. My first husband was severely bipolar. He bounces around from jail to psych ward right now because he refuses to get meds.

why would he be in jail? for refusing to taking meds? :bugeye: that cant be right.

[Liebling]

No, he's be in jail for many things. Domestic abuse, assault and battery, armed robbery, B&E... more domestic abuse, sexual assault. He can't control himself when he's not on meds and has a very violent temper. He's been incarcerated on 12 different charges. Six of which were felonies.

I left him when I found out I was pregnant. Because then I needed to protect more than just myself, and I've never looked back. Still have friends back there to keep me updated, and I've changed my name, social security number and moved to a different state. As far as he's concerned, I no longer exist.

[draqon]

Liebling...nice choice of men, I must say.

[Liebling]

Sometimes people care about taking care of and helping people who seem to be out of control. I was very young and thought that if I loved him enough, I could help him get past all his problems. I have a lot of compassion for people, and he seemed to need my help and even begged for my help to change. I have trouble turning my back on people who ask for my help, and yes... that has lead me down a path of danger in more than one instance. It was nearly 20 years ago, and I learned my lesson. I don't involve myself with people who would put my life in danger any more, but I wouldn't change it because despite having a son who is bipolar, he's a beautifully creative child and he's smart and funny.

We all make mistakes, draqon. Me, maybe more than most, but I do the best I can with what I have and what I have is a very big heart. I genuinely care for other people, and I'd rather be loving and caring, passionate and kind... then be someone who really doesn't care about my fellow man. In the end, it's the impact you have on others that is your true legacy, and I know that I have always treated people with love and respect despite what I did or did not get out of it. I do a lot of volunteer work, I participate in fund raising events, and I spend my Sunday afternoons at the nursing home teaching ladies how to knit and knitting booties and shawls for them in my spare time.

I haven't always made the right choices for myself, but I have loved to the best of my ability and for that, I won't ever apologize or be ashamed.

[phlogistician]

No, he's be in jail for many things. Domestic abuse, assault and battery, armed robbery, B&E... more domestic abuse, sexual assault. He can't control himself when he's not on meds and has a very violent temper. He's been incarcerated on 12 different charges. Six of which were felonies.

I left him when I found out I was pregnant. Because then I needed to protect more than just myself, and I've never looked back. Still have friends back there to keep me updated, and I've changed my name, social security number and moved to a different state. As far as he's concerned, I no longer exist.

Sound like you had a shit time, but you shouldn't let your personal experiences colour what Stryder was actually saying in his post.

[phlogistician]

Actually, I guess that having a good lifestyle might prevent a chemical imbalance in some cases.
For example, if your lifestyle is causing you stress (either on a conscious level or not), some neurotransmitters may increase or decrease. Keep this up a long time and it might screw up your brain chemistry.



Well, for example, I no longer drink alcohol midweek, nor caffeine after midday. Both as you know are diuretics, and of course, if you are drinking a diuretic, you aren't drinking the water you need to replace what you pee, so I guess people that drink booze and caffeine are likely to suffer from slight dehydration. That can mean concentration problems, loss of motivation and mean tiredness can come on more easily, and that sleep will be less restful. Couple this with a poor diet and sedentary lifestyle (which I've never had) and this can exacerbate other problems.

I think people sometimes forget they are apes, with electric light bulbs. Despite modern distractions, we need to look after our inner ape. Treat that ape to a decent diet, fresh air, exercise and sleep. Give it a frikking banana, and cut down on processed foods. Do Zookeepers give their apes burgers, fries, and cola? Keep them up late? Make them sit still for hours on end? No? I wonder why!

[John99]

Sound like you had a shit time, but you shouldn't let your personal experiences colour what Stryder was actually saying in his post.

that is why you cant take things personally on the internet because you dont know what the other person is going through. generally speaking.

[Liebling]

Despite your assertions otherwise, I am not basing my opinion on "personal experience" but on the many seminars, classes and support groups I have sat through because of my personal experience. But here, since you just want to beat a dead horse and think your opinion constitutes exactly what Stryder was saying, which is the same thing you are accusing me of;

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/bipolar-disorder/complete-index.shtml
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bipolar-disorder/DS00356
http://www.enotalone.com/article/4114.html
http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/go/information/get-info/schizophrenia/schizophrenia-what-you-need-to-know

No amount of diet/exercises/sleep will help someone with a chemical imbalance of dopamine and seratonin in their brain. It can be verified with a PET scan, and has at least for my son and I know others as well. You simply should not tell someone that those things will lessen their symptoms. It will for someone with mild to moderate depression maybe, but that's not science either, is it? It may even seem to lessen the symptons temporarily of someone with a chemical imbalance, but they should be seen by a medical professional, not a gym guru who things they are doing right by them but are really prologing the treatment they need to improve their quality of life. You have to study the person, they symptoms and the brain before you dole out advise on how to fix them.

Again, this is not based on my personal experience or personal emotion, but a lot of reading and studying in an effort to help my son. I'm not "taking things personally" or being emotional. I am saying this because telling someone that there is nothing wrong with them that they can't fix and setting that unattainable goal for them is negligible.

[phlogistician]

No amount of diet/exercises/sleep will help someone with a chemical imbalance ,....

STOP! Go read Stryder's post again. Keep reading it until you get it.

[The Breaker]

"chemical imbalances" are responsible for every emotion. Every time you feel sad it's because of a reduction In Serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, endorphins, and/or endocannabinoids. This does not just happen in so called clinically depressed people. My major problem with using drugs to treat neurological disorders is a lack of testing. If someone is depressed, tests should be performed to see if his body is not producing sufficient quantities of the neurotransmitters known to influence mood. If one them is low, than treat the patient with a drug which raises levels of that particular neurotransmitter. Currently, subjective questionaires and evaluation of symptoms are used to determine if a person is depressed. If a person is determined to have depression, an SSRI is almost always prescribed. The obvious problem with this is that serotonin is not the only neurotransmitter known to effect mood. My guess is that many people who are on SSRIs do not have a problem with serotonin but with one of the many other neurotransmitters.

[Asguard]

breaker there are reasons SSRI's are used rather than other drugs. The other widely used drug is a NARI (nor-adrenilin reuptake inhibitor) however this one can have serious cardiac effects because nor-adrenilin and adrenilin (which it breaks down into) effect the sympathetic nervious system. Seritonin has alot less systemic effects which means by boasting it you can cover for drops in other nerotransmitters and yet still exclusivly target the brain

[The Breaker]

While serotonin can cause depressive behavior if sufficient quantities are not produced, it is certainly not the only neurotransmitter in the brain which plays a role in depression. Even some hormones such as testosterone, estrogen, DHEA, and cortisol can make one depressed if levels are low. Why than would you treat depression which could be caused by low testosterone, dopamine, or acetylcholine with something which increases serotonin levels? Tests should be performed on every person who is suspected to be clinically depressed to make sure that low serotonin is the cause. Another problem I have with antidepressants is doctors fail to inform their patient of the numerous side effects of the drugs such as weight gain, apathy, sexual dysfunction, and possible permanent changes in brain chemistry not to mention the inevitable withdrawal symptoms.

[Asguard]

i cant comment on where you live but thats simply not true here. For starters the law REQUIRES them to inform there pts, so must the pharmisist AND the drug itself must have info on side effects.

Secondly, its difficult to test for ALL of those hormones and nero transmitters and gain any sort of insight as to which paticular one is at fault, just excluding normal variations would be dam near impossable.

Lastly even if they COULD pinpoint a paticular hormone or nerotransmiter which was low in the brain doesnt mean its low systemically and there for boasting it could have MASSIVE side effects. lets go through some of them shall we?

Nor-adrelilin, increased workload on the heart leading to arythmia's, increased vasoconstriction leading to necrosis at the extremities

endorphins, work on the morphine parth ways. Get this one wrong and the pt stops breathing and doesnt even know it

endocannabinoids, i dont know much about these so i will need to check them out

testosterone increased agression, increased sex drive (good side effect for the most part), increased HR possably leading to arythmias through increased sympathetic nervious activation

estrogen im unsure of any side effects with this except breast growth in men and an increased chance of breast cancer in both sexes. Oh and for some reason, increased chance of stroke through increased clotting

dopamine increased risks of alzimers

DHEA dont know this one

cortisol- athrytes, cardio vascular disease

Seritonin on the other hand as far as im awear only has 2 effects. Its mood effects and a slight involvment in inflimation. There for its the safest to play with

[The Breaker]

i cant comment on where you live but thats simply not true here. For starters the law REQUIRES them to inform there pts, so must the pharmisist AND the drug itself must have info on side effects.

Sure, they have to warn them of the potential drowsiness, nausea, and dizziness, but I'm sure that most people taking antidepressants are not well informed of their potential, more serious side effects and withdrawal symptoms. I can tell you from experience that doctors are ready to suggest SSRIs at the very mention of possible depression without discussing the other options.

Secondly, its difficult to test for ALL of those hormones and nero transmitters and gain any sort of insight as to which paticular one is at fault, just excluding normal variations would be dam near impossable.

Lastly even if they COULD pinpoint a paticular hormone or nerotransmiter which was low in the brain doesnt mean its low systemically and there for boasting it could have MASSIVE side effects. lets go through some of them shall we?

Nor-adrelilin, increased workload on the heart leading to arythmia's, increased vasoconstriction leading to necrosis at the extremities

endorphins, work on the morphine parth ways. Get this one wrong and the pt stops breathing and doesnt even know it

endocannabinoids, i dont know much about these so i will need to check them out

testosterone increased agression, increased sex drive (good side effect for the most part), increased HR possably leading to arythmias through increased sympathetic nervious activation

estrogen im unsure of any side effects with this except breast growth in men and an increased chance of breast cancer in both sexes. Oh and for some reason, increased chance of stroke through increased clotting

dopamine increased risks of alzimers

DHEA dont know this one

cortisol- athrytes, cardio vascular disease

Seritonin on the other hand as far as im awear only has 2 effects. Its mood effects and a slight involvment in inflimation. There for its the safest to play with

They already prescribe SNRIs for depression. Hell, they prescribe AMPHETAMINE to kids who supposedly have ADD. Obviously, the FDA doesn't think drugs which increase norepinephrine have to great a side effects profile to be prescribed.

A small increase in endorphins, especially if they were already low, would not cause morphine like respiratory depression.

The increased aggression caused by testosterone is grossly overestimated in the media. It is rare and if testosterone is low, exogeneous testosterone can actually help make a person more calm.

Increasing dopamine levels above natural levels could lead to numerous side effects such as compulsive behaviour, but I have never seen a study or even read that increased dopamine could lead to alzheimer's. In fact, dopamerginc drugs may help to lessen some of the symptoms of alzheimer's.

While there are many side effects of to much cortisol, there are side effects to not having enough cortisol as well: low energy, weakness, and yes, depression.

Even if the potential side effects to increasing all of these hormones were great, it would seem that they would still have their use. After all, if a person is depressed and on the verge of committing suicide aren't a few side effects worth feeling better? And speaking of side effects, surely you have heard the horror stories of antidepressants permanently changing people's personality or of their horrible withdrawal symptoms?

[Asguard]

the point your overlooking is that metabolically the levels may well be NORMAL (or even high) and yet they are low in the brain. So how do you expect to hold the effects PURLY in the CNS? as i said thats why seritonin is used, because it has the least amount of metabolic effects making it the safest to use.

Your right about the endorphines effect though. You just want to be VERY sure they are closly monitored when you put them onto it. In fact hospital protocal for morphine (oviously in pain relief) is that the person has to at least have nasal specs on and an SpO2 monitor because of the chances of respitory depression. Now its POSSABLE this wouldnt be a problem in low doses but you also have to concider that the pt may well be used to a lower than normal range for morphine and there for more suseptable to its effects.

Further more im glad you brought up peads. What effect do you think introducing sex hormones into a pead would have?

Not to mention that the sex hormones (especially testostirone) have some VERY interesting :rolleyes: effects if missused. For instance apart from rage they can cause female development in men because of the build up of estrogen as a result (look at all the former east german swimmers if you dont belive me MASSIVE tits in men and alot of them of both sexes have now had sex changes)

[The Breaker]

the point your overlooking is that metabolically the levels may well be NORMAL (or even high) and yet they are low in the brain. So how do you expect to hold the effects PURLY in the CNS? as i said thats why seritonin is used, because it has the least amount of metabolic effects making it the safest to use.

Your right about the endorphines effect though. You just want to be VERY sure they are closly monitored when you put them onto it. In fact hospital protocal for morphine (oviously in pain relief) is that the person has to at least have nasal specs on and an SpO2 monitor because of the chances of respitory depression. Now its POSSABLE this wouldnt be a problem in low doses but you also have to concider that the pt may well be used to a lower than normal range for morphine and there for more suseptable to its effects.

Further more im glad you brought up peads. What effect do you think introducing sex hormones into a pead would have?

Not to mention that the sex hormones (especially testostirone) have some VERY interesting :rolleyes: effects if missused. For instance apart from rage they can cause female development in men because of the build up of estrogen as a result (look at all the former east german swimmers if you dont belive me MASSIVE tits in men and alot of them of both sexes have now had sex changes)

Perhaps there is no simple test which can determine the level of neurotransmitters in the brain, but I know they can test for neurotransmitter receptors using brain scaning and imagining and specific drugs. I certainly would rather pay for a brain scan then pay for some possibly unnecessary drugs which could have lifelong consequences.

I'm not sure what you mean by pead, so I can't comment.

As I stated earlier, increased aggression as a rare side effect which can occur if testosterone levels are boosted far above their normal levels as is the case with AAS abusers. Gynecomastia as well, tends to occur only when estrogen levels are far above normal due to AAS abuse. These are not side effects which occur when testosterone is boosted into the normal range.

[Asguard]

peadiatrics, ie kids

And as for the rest what i mean is that you assume what your talking about is easy. Sure just test for a low transmitter and then boast it but that is simply not the way the body works. Your incorectly assuming that because something is low in the CNS its low (or even normal) in the rest of the body and that just boosting it will fix the problem. Thats just not the case, as i said nor adrealine could well be low in the CNS and HIGH in the rest of the body so you boost it and cause tachicardia progressing to ectopic beats and then to VT. Thats why salbutamol (ventalin) was invented in the first place because it was to dangerious to give adrenaline for every asthma atack because of its cardiac effects so they had to find a SPECIFIC beta 2 acting drug. Nor adrelinilin is certainly NOT selective and when it metabolises into adrenilin its DEFINITLY not.

Your also assuming that even if something IS low that the body hasnt naturally adapted to funtion with a lower amount of it. Here morphine is a perfect example because if you look at adicts it takes stronger and stronger doses to get them high. Its logical to assume the reverse is true to and if you just give a shot to bring a person back to "normal" you are risking opioid induced type 2 (wont breath) respitory failure which is even more dangerious than type 1 because the pt cant tell its happerning (there is no struggle to breath).

For the sex hormones just look at where we are currently doing exactly as your suggesting. Ie hormone replacement theorpy for women post menopause. The dangers in just that group FAR out weight an SSRI and thats ignoring the unkown effects these drugs would have on reproduction if we started using them on younger men and women and even children. I mean think about that, we already have problems with early pubity and we could be giving hormones which induce it because they are low on them? How are you going to keep the doses stable and that exact as to prevent the side effects like early pubity and yet still have the stabilising effects?

How are you going to make sure these drugs ONLY work in the CNS and not systemically?

[The Breaker]

peadiatrics, ie kids

And as for the rest what i mean is that you assume what your talking about is easy. Sure just test for a low transmitter and then boast it but that is simply not the way the body works. Your incorectly assuming that because something is low in the CNS its low (or even normal) in the rest of the body and that just boosting it will fix the problem. Thats just not the case, as i said nor adrealine could well be low in the CNS and HIGH in the rest of the body so you boost it and cause tachicardia progressing to ectopic beats and then to VT. Thats why salbutamol (ventalin) was invented in the first place because it was to dangerious to give adrenaline for every asthma atack because of its cardiac effects so they had to find a SPECIFIC beta 2 acting drug. Nor adrelinilin is certainly NOT selective and when it metabolises into adrenilin its DEFINITLY not.

Your also assuming that even if something IS low that the body hasnt naturally adapted to funtion with a lower amount of it. Here morphine is a perfect example because if you look at adicts it takes stronger and stronger doses to get them high. Its logical to assume the reverse is true to and if you just give a shot to bring a person back to "normal" you are risking opioid induced type 2 (wont breath) respitory failure which is even more dangerious than type 1 because the pt cant tell its happerning (there is no struggle to breath).

For the sex hormones just look at where we are currently doing exactly as your suggesting. Ie hormone replacement theorpy for women post menopause. The dangers in just that group FAR out weight an SSRI and thats ignoring the unkown effects these drugs would have on reproduction if we started using them on younger men and women and even children. I mean think about that, we already have problems with early pubity and we could be giving hormones which induce it because they are low on them? How are you going to keep the doses stable and that exact as to prevent the side effects like early pubity and yet still have the stabilising effects?

How are you going to make sure these drugs ONLY work in the CNS and not systemically?

Perhaps prodrugs are the answer. Similar to the way we treat parkinson's by coadministering L-dopa and carbidopa, to prevent L-dopa from being metabolized into dopamine in the periphery. Or maybe we can develop drugs which only act on receptors which are specific to the CNS. For example, CB1 receptors are found almost exclusively in the brain, where as CB2 almost exclusively in the periphery. If we developed drugs which acted solely on CB1 receptors we could complete eliminate the peripheral side effects of cannabinoids. The body never fully adapts to low levels of neurotransmitters. Does a drug addict ever become so tolerant that they function as a normal person? We know that exogeneous testosterone greatly lowers sperm count, but if a person is willing to accept this side effect I don't see any dangers of giving a person who has already gone through puberty testosterone to boost them into the normal range.

[macie21]

You could try Cymbalta, it's working very well for a friend of mine who was on a Paxil/Zoloft rotation for years. I am assuming you are taking it for anxiety/depression, though. If so, you could try that.

Stay away from Paxil, I have four friends who took it and all ended up getting the shakes really bad, and the one who switched to Cymbalta still has shakes and now mild seizures from years of being on Paxil. And it took her doctor 4 months to wean her off Paxil too, because taking someone right off it can kill them. :eek:

- aww. i agree with you Liebling...

What is Cymbalta?

Cymbalta (duloxetine HCI) is approved for the treatment of depression and generalized anxiety disorder, and for the management of diabetic peripheral neurophatic pain and fibromyalgia. :roflmao: