Psychozoology? Dogs and justice, cooperation and evolution

Source: Guardian UK
Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/dec/08/dogs-envy-fairness-social-behaviour
Title: "Dogs refuse to play ball if they have been treated unfairly", by Ian Sample
Date: December 8, 2008

"Man's best friend". Perhaps this is a critical difference between dogs and cats. The theory goes that dogs have a sense of justice. While experiments at the University of Vienna do not say that cats lack this capacity, it is only because there is nothing in there about cats.

More to the point:

One wonders how this trait plays into the relationship between dogs and people. Is it something that occurred independently in dogs, and perhaps fostered and guided the growing relationship? Or is it something that dogs have learned over time, a selected behavior dependent on a dog's ability to learn the point?

Project leader Friederike Range said or the result, "It tells us that dogs are sensitive to unequal rewards. Is it envy, is it a sense of fairness? It's hard to say, because a lot depends on how you define those words." And the study article, in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences concludes, "Our results suggest that species other than primates show at least a primitive version of inequity aversion, which may be a precursor of a more sophisticated sensitivity to efforts and pay-offs of joint interactions."

It would seem to reinforce the notion that for some organisms, cooperation is a vital component to the health of the species, but there are, of course, questions to be had. Test subjects were domesticated dogs; the research team is planning a future experiment with wolves. And yet, part of me wonders whether it would be a fair question to ask if this behavior is shown by domesticated dogs in regions where the animals are routinely consumed as food. Could the nature of domestication have an effect on the outcome?

Nonetheless, this is very interesting. Of course, long-time dog owners might well yawn, scratch themselves, and say, "What? You're not telling me anything new!"

 

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cats are man's friends, not dogs.

 

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No, not quite

Cats are willful tchotchke.

And this from someone who adores cats.

 

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The dogs are going to want the treats and be distracted no matter if they think it's fair or not.

 

I can tell you from experience that cats exhibit the same behavior.

 

Either put the pipe down or pass it over because you must be smoking crack to say something like that.

Tiassa,
I read that article yesterday, spoke with a few people about it and saw that a local morning news show was talking about it this morning. The most consistent and common response to that article was:
Anyone who owns a dog or has ever owned a dog could tell you that. Myself included.
Dogs are very capable of showing emotion. Theirs are much more rudimentary than ours though: think of the difference between an Atari 2600 and a Play Station 3.

Of course there are going to be subtle differences between wolves and dogs, but as you listed above yourself, they are the same species.
And...

You should not be wary.
A dog could be plugged into a wolf pack and understand every little communication nuance that the wolves have. Or you can turn around and plug a tame wolf into a household with domestic dogs and the wolf will be able to understand the dogs just like someone from New York can understand someone from California. Dogs and wolves can reproduce with one another as well.
If you get a chance sometime, watch some episodes of the Dog Whisperer. He gets the dogs under control by more or less acting like an alpha male from a wolf pack.
Think of dogs and wolves like the United States and Britain. Even though we are two different countries, one came from the other and we both speak the same language. A citizen from one country could go live in the other with minimal transitional effort.

 

I find dogs to be wussy. Cats have attitude and their preferences are not linked to who feeds them or who looks after them. They either like you or they don't. And yeah, cats are different. My cat did not care if she was given the same food as other cats, she wanted the same food I was eating. If she suspected or saw that she was given "inferior" food [which was generally better than my food], she would sulk for hours and snarl if I went close. My other cat eats his food, then whoever else can be bullied out of theirs. If he successfully manages to bully several of the other cats, he eats too much and pukes. The third one is complacent. She doesn't care who eats what. She eats what she can then comes back for a second turn if its not enough.

 

Sounds like you have no idea on how to raise/control/discipline your cat.
If I had a cat and he snarled whenever I didn't give him some of what I was eating, then he'd be sitting there snarling (and stomach growling) until he learned to eat his own damn food. If I saw him bullying other cats, he'd get his ass whipped by me.
Sounds like your cat is the master of the house and you're his bitch.

 

I've had maybe 15 cats over the last 30 years and about 3 dogs. I treat my animals like independent creatures, not slaves. And apache was my sweetheart, she was with us for 18 years until we put her down in 2006. And I wouldn't have traded her for all my other cats.

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Sam honey, there is a distinct difference between treating your animals like slaves and not giving into ludicrous demands from your pet.
If you ever had a child, would you let him/her whine, bitch and be bratty if you didn't give them the exact food that they wanted?

And while they are not slaves, they are subordinates. Which means they are not in charge.
I love my dogs more than almost anything. They are family members. But what they aren't, is in charge. I am.
I'll often let them go outside, but Kingston (my doberman) wants to be in the house with me, so he'll go and do his business then come right back up and sit on the deck by the back door and whine(while the other two are out exploring the yard). I just ignore him. If he keeps whining, I kick him off the deck(not literally), down into the yard and close the gate at the top of the deck stairs so he can't come up there and whine.
I also get on them fairly sternly and quickly if they get into it with each other. I'm not talking about the play fighting/wrestling, I'm talking about when they are serious.
I often hear mulitple-pet owners tell me that one of their dogs bullies the others and they can't do anything about it. Bullshit. It's the same thing as having children and they get into it. They don't call the shots.
So yes, you can be strict and disciplinary with your pets, while still being a good parent.

 

Ah, you have control issues. I don't. I really don't see the point in playing take charge with an animal. Thats why I prefer cats. They understand the status quo. I get my way as much as they get theirs and they prefer it that way.

And I don't consider them my kids either. More like dependent companions.

 

sorry. double post. mods please delete if you can.

 

I don't have control issues. Apparently you have no idea on how to raise dogs.
You cannot allow them to go and do what they want. They can be just like unruly kids if you don't raise them with a bit of discipline. In fact, since dogs are pack-social animals, they NEED structure. They need to be led and instructed on how to live their lives. I'm doing almost exactly what a wolf pack alpha is doing...because it's necessary.
In a pack like wolves, the alpha male and female are resposible for the well being of the pack (much like parents are for their children).
Honestly, you (and anyone else that hasn't) really need to watch an episode of the Dog Whisperer. Most all of the issues Cesar deals with concerning dogs and their owners, are due to the fact that the owners treat their dogs like humans. You cannot treat a dog like a human. They don't understand it. You have to essentially become a pack leader and communicate with them that way. People do these things and don't even realize that they are doing it.
Some examples:
-Have you ever seen someone walking their dog, and the dog is like 10 feet in front of the person? Well, the dog is not the pack leader so he should not be in front. When you walk a dog and allow the dog to walk ahead, you are giving your power as the leader, over to him. A dog should either be beside you or behind you when you are walking.
-same thing for going into or out of a building. You first, then the dog.
-when you come home and the dogs are all excited; when you go up to the dog and say hi and pet him and such, you are (to the dog) submitting to it. That's what a dog is doing when it comes up to you all excited and licks your face...it's submitting
-what about when a dog is up on the couch with its owner, someone approaches the owner and the dog growls? That means the owner is letting the dog up on the couch at will. The dog interprets that as it is in charge. So when another person approaches the human owner, the dog views the owner as its property and is 'protecting' it from the approaching human. If the dog knew his place as the subordinate, then it would know to not get up on the couch w/o permission (and it's the owners responsibility to teach it) and would look to the human owner to see how they reacted to the approaching human rather than take matters into its own paws. Haha.
So with that explanation, I do hope you finally understand, but I'll be happy to break it down even further if you are still failing to see this from my (and every knowledgable dog owner) perspective.

I sure hope you don't take the same mentality if you ever have real children. You will have a tough road ahoe if you do.
I consider my dogs my companions, but they are subordinates first.

 

Too much hoopla. Cats are better. The last time I was home, Ajju ate too much and puked on the floor. I came in, saw the puke and knew it was him. He was still there, cleaning up his whiskers. So I looked at him with a steely glare and said [very softly] So! did you eat too much again, my dear? His head snapped up, ears back and he took off like a shot [lots of previous experience with my steely glare]. So, of course I took off after him and he jumps up into the loft. Now since I am really mad, I get the step ladder and climb up, with my face in the loft and shout Come here, you coward! I haven't finished with you yet!. And what does he do? He comes to me and starts butting my chin with his head.

Now what can you do with a cat like that? So I just took him to the kitchen, cleaned up and gave him a saucer of milk.

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Oh I don't know about that, don't have any kids nor planning to, but I think there is a difference between a cat and a kid.

 

I agree with your first sentence*, but disagree with the second one.

*you more or less mean that cats are lower maintenance than dogs. I agree. But say what you will, cats are still not as interactive and attentive as dogs are. Yes, of course there are exceptions to the rule, but collectively, no.

What do you do with a cat like that?
Let me tell you...you can first set a time when you feed him. Put a bowl full of food down every morning at the same time. He may not eat right away so leave the dish there for 30-45 minutes. If he doesn't eat, pick it back up and wait until evening and do the same thing. He will learn very quick (as cats are highly intelligent) that he gets fed at a certain time in the mornign and a certain time in the evening and that if he doesn't eat it in time, he won't get fed. But since you only have one cat, that might be overkill. That method works better with multiple animals:
I do that with my dogs, but I do that for a reason. Like I said, dogs like structure. Plus, it keeps them on a schedule and since all three of them scarf down their food as soon as I set their bowls down, it keeps them from eating each others' food. Every now and then I'll set a bowl down and one of them has an upset stomach and won't eat their food. I just put the bowl back up so the other two don't eat it.

Yeah, a fairly big difference. It's much easier to compare the principle of raising kids with dogs moreso than cats. Dogs are needier and require more attention than cats.

 

Huh? Ajju doesn't have any problem with eating, his problem is overeating and puking. He has lots of personality issues and finds it hard to get along with other people and cats. But he likes me.

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I had four cats at home, Apache died 2006, now I have three. I don't know how you missed that in the previous post. You could not have done the previous stuff with Apache, she was very particular. She got lost once when she was very little [crossed the road at night and landed with the neighbors gardener] and refused to eat anything for the three days that she was with him. He was quite shocked and worried, but she came home [once we located her] and ate properly. Like me, she had very fixed opinions and was quite unshakeable in them.

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I agree with that. And my method of feeding cat is call them, put out the food and come back and clean up after 30 minutes. It works well for all of us.If they don't eat it, they don't, there's no big deal. If they feel hungry later or want something different [usually by sniffing at the food then coming and doing blinky blinky eyes at me], I try to oblige, because thats no big deal either.

 

Is that true? We usually give milk with bread soaked in it. But Ajju, who comes in the morning with the milkman [he likes to traipse around at night] never takes it as anything but as is. And he's healthy as a horse and sometimes feels as tough and strong as one too.

 

Hey Fraggle

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I'm not sure if you meant that as a reply to my post. What I meant was that cats can be envious of each other when not treated equally.
One of my cats in particular takes it out on the other sometimes when he doesn't receive as much attention as the other one.
But he usually only does it when he thinks I'm not looking.. setting the record straight I suppose lol
When I'm still around he glares at the other one, you can see he wants to act but restrains himself.
Come to think of it.. he is a bit of an asshole really :scratchin: