should we teach kids to beilve in santa?

[Agent@5]

Does it really do any harm? is is it adding to the mass on lie's and falicious nature of our western community?

I cant decide......... im not sure how innocent it is...

[~The_Chosen~]

I believed in Santa as a kid, it was the most fun thing. Of course, why not?

Just unteach them later, they'll grow up and laugh at how they fell for it :D

[Agent@5]

But what are the principles we are teaching them in the process....

we'll you can make up a huge lie, as long as the person is always ignorant to the 'truth' or until we just think they arnt gullible enought to belive it......

But of course lying is bad

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by Agent@5
But what are the principles we are teaching them in the process....

we'll you can make up a huge lie, as long as the person is always ignorant to the 'truth' or until we just think they arnt gullible enought to belive it......

But of course lying is bad

Well not really. It's lying (literally correct) but it's in GOOD INTENTIONS.

I work with children all the time at Child Development Centers and Youth Services Centers.

You sit down with them and tell them all about Santa, where he lives, what he does...it lets them talk about something, discuss, they get excited thinking about elfs and reindeers :p And they're so damn cute...plus when they see someone dressed up as Santa they get so delighted and no harm has been done.

[Agent@5]

but wouldnt it be harder for then to sepertae fiction from non? ie reality from fantasy??

[Joeman]

Well, I never believed in Santa no matter how hard my parents tried. I didn't believe it when I was 5 years old. I am a natural born skeptic. That is probably why I am an engineer/physicist.

My sister still believed in Santa when she was 12. I think that is because she refused to believe it ain't true or in denial. Her personality is totally different from mine.

In the end it doesn't make any difference..... We all grow up.

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by Agent@5
but wouldnt it be harder for then to sepertae fiction from non? ie reality from fantasy??

Every child grows out of their beliefs. The kids I worked with were so adorably cute! Some are mature enough to understand that Santa isn't real and that is when their brain start to separate fantasy from reality.

Insane people have problems doing that.

Work with kids Agent@5, you're a teenager right? It'll be cool experience, plus women should love children. ;)

[Thor]

Telling children to believe in Santa is wrong. I didn't like it one bit when I learn't the truth. If we lie to our children at an early age, they may distrust us for the rest of their lives. Kids do remember things.

[Centaurus1]

This is slightly of topic, nevertheless, may I ask what part of our Western society is inherently fallacious??

[Thor]

Obviously the one that is most fallacious

[Xerxes]

I don't think you should lie to kids, in any way. It's just sends them a deep message that never leaves them. It's disgusting.

Unlike you, I was never told that Santa existed, since I'm Jewish. The guy in the mall -- Some overweight unemployed person. Now, my parent's still tried to convince me that the tooth fairy existed. It was extremely insulting. I said, okay, howabout I give you the tooth, and you give me the money. We both know very well that you're the so called "tooth fairy" . She responds: No I'm not.

So I stay up that night to prove it, and afterwards she still tries to convince me that she never tried to play the role of any ficticious charecter such as the tooth fairy. It was very confusing. I didn't wan't to believe in something so illogical and pathetic, but there I was, being told by someone I trusted to have faith. Luckilly I didn't. She still tried to convince me when I was twelve.

It just sends kids mixed messages. They're supposed to trust their parents. But lying to them gets kids into the pattern of blind faith, where they loose independence, and trust the word of close people rather than themselves. That's sadly, bound to lead to kids' who don't think for themselves, and pick up bad habits down the road.

I guarantee you, that all the druggees, loosers, and bums nowadays believed in Santa Clause, or the tooth fairy, or whatever, when they were kids.

[Thor]

The tooth fairy is a brilliant example. Thanks for bringing it up. These lies are there to try and make us act better or its compensation for losing something i.e, a tooth. But I don't get why parents just don't say 'You lost another tooth, have some money, that'll make you feel better' or 'If you don't be good, I won't buy you any presents'.
They probably use it so they don't feel as guilty (tooth taken out = pain for me)

[Tyler]

The Santa story is harmless. Now, I don't know what kind of pathetic little kids you know but I have never met someone who rejected their parents or saw them as liers because they told them about Santa.

It's a harmless lie that brings joy to little children and instills fantasy and imagination into them. If you'd like to take away a little more of the imagination that we already strip children of, go ahead. I for one don't see it as a bad thing to let a child have a fantasy until he/she is old enough to come to terms with reality themselves.

[Aussie]

Hi Agent@5 :) I can only speak from personal experience, which was a positive one. I agree with Tyler in that, I have never heard or seen any EVIDENCE that a child subjected to Santa has had any problems whatsoever. Children will LIE later in life, just as we all have, regardless of what their perception of Santa was as a child. Atheists run the risk of contradicting themselves though - beware :bugeye:ahh the joys of parenting...

[wet1]

Isn't it a shame we don't get that human operating manual when the baby comes home from the hospital.

First Santa Clause, then the Tooth Fairy, and next it'll be the Easter Bunny. What's a poor child to believe...

What is so hard to believe about a fat guy in a red suit with reindeer and a sleigh instead of a decent motorbike. Or some little wisp of a thing flying in to take the old nasty (kinda of neat looking) tooth away and leave money in its place. Or a big bunny that goes around laying eggs.

Kids learn about these things from the grown ups. It becomes something that they look forward to every year until. It lightens up their lives and gives bright joy to them in a very new world. I, for one, would never dream of depriving a child of such joy. With the various sicknesses that come to them there is a very real chance that they may die never knowing the difference. Is that so bad to bring a child that much happiness when tomarrow he/she might not be here for the next one?

So later they learn that it is a thing that all the grownups always knew and were in calhoots about. They learn that one day they will be grown ups, the evidence is that they aready know the "secret".

[~The_Chosen~]

I agree with you Wet1, couldn't have said it better.

[Shadowstrife911]

So what should we teach these innocent little children instead? That christmas is now a commercial holiday where their parents vigorously attack the shopping malls in search of toys for them and that the big corporations are nothing but greedy, unethical robots?

Oh and well put Wet1

[wet1]

So what should we teach these innocent little children instead? That christmas is now a commercial holiday where their parents vigorously attack the shopping malls in search of toys for them and that the big corporations are nothing but greedy, unethical robots?

I don't even want to go here. You get into one of my "pet peeves". I think a new thread is in order for this topic...

Shadowstrife911, you have made an excellent start, would you be so kind as too....

[Xev]

(The following is why I will never have children)

The world is full of these little lies, these small untruths that form the basis of so many institutions, the basis of society itself is the lie.

Children will eventually be subjected to that. Now, I like children for their honesty and simplicity.

Why corrupt that? It's one of the most precious things in the world.

Any child I raised would have to be raised without lies - as a non-herd animal and a skeptic.

Thus I will never have children.

P.S: Like Joeman, I never really believed in Santa. I had a sort of "Uh huh, riiiiiight" attitude to the whole affair. Thus when told "It's your parents" I was not shocked.

"Oh, that makes sense. Next!"

Edit to add:

Why is the commercialization of Christmas a problem? Who the fuck cares and why? :confused:

[Bebelina]

The Santa story is just one of the thousand fairytales that kids are told, this one is just more animated. They can do good or do harm depending on the circumstances. The important thing is to not take this too far, have a glimpse in the eye, make hints that this may or may not be true. Create exitement and let the kid reveal Santa for itself eventually, like pulling off the beard or something...but all made as a fun play. So that the poor child will not get traumatized. Make suggestions on what the true story behind santa really is. This way, the child gets the opportunity o reveal a great mystery all by itself, and will possibly see the fun in exploring the unknown, to learn, to be brave. :)

A friend once told me that she believed firmly in santa until that horrid day when she was going to school for the first time. Her mother stopped her at the door and looked seriously at her and said " You know that Santa really doesn't exist, don't you?" She was chocked and cried all the way to school. Her mother told her then, so that she wouldn't get teased by the other children.
Now , that is an example of what shouldn't happen.

And, in my class a boy in 6th grade stil believed in santa, and was terribly upset when everybody else said he was wrong. I'm sure he had a serious talk with his parents after school too.

Me, I was scared stiff of Santa. I refused to go near him. I screamed if they tried to make me approach him. I didn't quite believe that he was the one delivering the presents either, because the labels always said "merry christmas from gandma" or something similar. I could read at 4. So that was also a "problem".

[(Q)]

Hey ! Whaddaya mean there's no Santa !?! :eek:

[Xerxes]

We're depriving children of their imagination by not forcing them to believe in a fat man that want's to crawl down your chimney and give you presents?? That's just distorting childrens view of the real world, and what life is really like.

I think we deprive kids of their imagination when we let them watch 4 hours of TV a day, and ignore their actual interests. Santa Clause has nothing to do with imagination, does it? Last time I checked, children develop their creativity and become more independent by exploring their interests (basically having any sort of creative outlet)

You deprive a kid when you lead them astray frorm the truth. They'll never know any other world, and I'm sure that in the long run, they'll be much better of if they're able to stomach the truth at a young age. Basically, a kids going to grow up into the kind of person you raise them to be. That doesn't mean their lives should be without any kind of fictional flare. You have to know when and how to seperate reality from the ficticious. And more importantly you've got to make sure the kids now how to differentiate. I was very insulted when my parents tried to convince of the existence of any toothfairy. That's what's wrong nowadays. Parent's don't know how to take care of their kids.

[Bebelina]

Elbaz, have you ever heard of teen rebellion? Kids often grow up to be the exact opposite of their parents. Didn't you?
So if you want your kids to be like you, then raise them as your parents raised you. But if you want something better for them, then use your own parental ability.
I don't think the Santa story makes any real difference to a childs imagination, there is so much else out there to trigger it. It's just that christmas is a social and traditional event, with a fairytale concept to it. So it gives the child a chance to interact with other children, who believe the same thing, which thickens the mystery. But as you said, some children just don't buy it, and are quite offended that the parents are even trying to pull such a prank on them.
That just proves that children are individuals too. :)

[Xev]

Q:

Psst - there's no God either.

(BAD ATHIEST! BAD!)

Elbaz: Well said, very well said.

[wet1]

http://www.questy.net/art/qsanta3.jpg
Believe in Santa Claus !!!
The tradition of giving gifts in the winter feast began in ancient Rome.
Saint Nicholas lived many centuries ago.
Because of his deeds Saint Nicholas became the patron saint of children.
The spirit of Saint Nicholas, and the tradition of the winter feast
were handed down to Santa Claus.
You say that Santa Claus is just a joke,
You say that Santa Claus conflicts with your beliefs.
Santa Claus has nothing to do with capitalism and marketing.
Santa Claus has nothing to do with shopping malls and parking.
You see the man in the bright red suit and say he isn't real.
If you take the time to learn who Santa was, and believe in who he is,
You'll understand it's not the man you see that counts,
but the feelings that you feel.
Santa Claus is real,
as real as a warm fireplace on a cold winter night.
as real as a smile that turns darkness into light.

Santa Claus is real,

as real as the spirit to give rather than to receive,
as real as human nature and the Will to Believe.

To believe in Santa Claus is to believe in childhood and charity.
To believe in Santa Claus is to be at peace with how you feel.
To believe in Santa Claus is to believe in the simplicity of love
and the complexity of human nature.
So if you do not believe in Santa,
then I guess you just don't understand,
The spirit of giving and the warmth of a child's smile,
is what makes us real.

This poem comes from an internet site dealing with Santa Clause.

The origins of Santa Clause go back to a fellow named Nicholas who lived in the fourth century. Two hundred years after his death, Justinian, (a Roman Emeror) built a church in his honor.

The reason I bring this up is that it is not a modern tradition but one that starts long ago.

The True Story Of Santa Clause (http://www.thehollandring.com/truestory.htm)

If you plan to raise a child within the christian belief then it is hard for a child to grasp the intangable meaning of God. Children start learning that Santa Clause is not real around the ages of 8-10. To them that is a godlike figure. It is easier after the child has learned "god mode" concept through Santa Clause. In essence it is a bait and switch tactic.

If your child is not raised as a christian but of another faith, then Santa Clause does not usually have the same meaning. This is in a large part where children learn at school that there is no Santa Clause. Whether you raise your child into a religion our not the concept of Santa is useful in them learning how to deal with intangable topics that can not be seen to be grasped. As children of this age it is not an easy task.

I still stand by the thought that a child should know the joys of Christmas. I fondly remember the days of believing that Santa was real. Of leaving cookies and milk on the table, of trying to get to sleep so Santa would hurry. I remember the mornings of Christmas when the family was asleep and stumbling into the living room where the Christmas tree was and looking to see if Santa had been there. These feelings are not things to be bought. They are precious to me and they always will be. They are revisited every time I see a Santa or a little boy or girl with the bright eyes of wonder when they first see the Christmas tree on Christmas morning.

[Bebelina]

Yes, that feeling of magic and wonder. :)

[Xev]

You need to deceive yourself and your children to see the beauty in the world?

Wet1, open your eyes! It's all around you. No need to make things up. Reality is....or can be...stunningly gorgeous.

Why make up false stories about the wonder of the universe when one can simply percieve it?

Why decieve in order to feel wonder when reality is so wonderfull?

BTW, I did enjoy the snide condescension of your post.

[Xerxes]

I still stand by the thought that a child should know the joys of Christmas. I fondly remember the days of believing that Santa was real. Of leaving cookies and milk on the table, of trying to get to sleep so Santa would hurry. I remember the mornings of Christmas when the family was asleep and stumbling into the living room where the Christmas tree was and looking to see if Santa had been there. These feelings are not things to be bought. They are precious to me and they always will be. They are revisited every time I see a Santa or a little boy or girl with the bright eyes of wonder when they first see the Christmas tree on Christmas morning.

Sure it's a good feeling, I won't try and dispute that. I felt good looking under my pillow and finding 5 - 10 bucks from the so called "tooth fairy". But it would have been just as good if my parents gave me the money straight up.

Similarly, I'd expect kids to get the same feeling if their parent's
gave present's straight up at christmas, to show that it was the parent's who cared about them as opposed to some fat guy at the north pole who has a fetish for chimneys. I'm not saying that you shouldn't raise kids that way if you honestly feel it's the best. They're your kids. But personally, I would never teach kids that kind of Garbage, and would recommend that nobody else teaches it either.

Oh ya,

Wet1, lets not forget what nostalgia is "a secret, wrapped in a lie, dipped in a dream." -- some TV Show

[wet1]

While most anything will fire the young one's imagination, I think it much more fun when the kids can talk to other kids about the same thing away from the parents. It adds a certain mystique to it.

Nostalgia does have it value. We can look back at where we were. Maybe not always good but there anyways.

I do not think less of you Elbaz, that you choose a different way to raise children. Who knows, maybe you are right, maybe not.


BTW, I did enjoy the snide condescension of your post.

While it was not aimed that way, make of it what you will...

[~The_Chosen~]

Imagination is the greatest thing for a child, they think so much. It's all a part of growing up, the creativity. I once believed in a "Boogie Monster" LOL, those were fun days to look back on...now, what if a kid never had this kind of imagination? What would he look back on and laugh at? The silly things? The joy he felt when he saw Santa?

All kids imagine things, to strip them completely of this is not a good idea.

[GB-GIL Trans-global]

But Xev, if you don't multiply, the Atheist race is doomed to extinction!

Not that other Atheists won't mate, but it's symbolic. Imagine this: if everybody thought the way you do and no Atheists had children, then the Atheist race would be extinct before the Great Awakening!

Doesn't that sound a little... erm... upsetting? LoL plus I can just imagine yours and Tyler's kids going around telling other kids how Santa is a fake and God doesn't exist XD

Generally I've found that it's easier for me to take truths if I hear them from my parents first (this has been true ever since I was very young) The news tells you only parts of stories that they expect you don't know, they don't tell you things that seem obvious. One night when I was about 7, I was watching the news on TV when there was a short story about a woman in Kansas who'd died taking in her sleep in the mid afternoon. When the babysitter came, her young son wouldn't let her in because he thought she was sleeping. I became very upset and scared, until my mother told me that this woman had been on drugs. The thing is, if you tell your little Xevettes and Tyler Jr.'s before others tell them, the truth will hurt less because you can address their fears, while other people might just say the part of the story that'll hurt them without telling them the part that will give them peace of mind.

Xev: you need to have children, if you don't, the world won't have any people like you after you die :P

[Bebelina]

It's often like this. That the older you get , the more you appreachiate the sillyness of life and imagination. Those who have just left childhood try very hard to be grown up and overly rational about the world, which for them involves leaving sillyness and imagination behind for a while.
But they will eventually grow older too...and more silly. :p

[GB-GIL Trans-global]

Originally posted by Bebelina
It's often like this. That the older you get , the more you appreachiate the sillyness of life and imagination. Those who have just left childhood try very hard to be grown up and overly rational about the world, which for them involves leaving sillyness and imagination behind for a while.
But they will eventually grow older too...and more silly. :p



Bebelina: this is because these young people appreciate every chunk of maturity they get, however once you're 100% mature, maturity seems sour instead of sweet. Depending on your goal in life, maturity can be good or it can be bad.

[Xev]

GB-Gil:

"Xev: you need to have children, if you don't, the world won't have any people like you after you die :P"

That's sweet of you to say. Waaaaaah! :)

Edit to note that most would esteem the lack of little Xevs to be a good thing.

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by Xev
That's sweet of you to say. Waaaaaah! :)

Guys will be so scared of her...they'll never want to bed with her, they'll keep thinking, "I'm I worthy of her??" :rolleyes: :D

She is the uber-Xevsch!! And I'm the one that's gonna take her off that silly throne given to her by other "males" :p

But anyway, young GB-GIL Trans-global has some atheist pride growing...

[Xev]

Chosen:


Guys will be so scared of her...they'll never want to bed with her, they'll keep thinking, "I'm I worthy of her??"

Ja, I need another who is worthy of me. :p

(Chosen, you're taking me seriously. That's generally a bad idea)


She is the uber-Xevsch!! And I'm the one that's gonna take her off that silly throne given to her by other "males"

Naw. I'm not an uber-Xevsch. A herald of the lightning is Xevrathrusra, but the lightning is the uber-Xevsch.

And ah, no, you aren't.


But anyway, young GB-GIL Trans-global has some atheist pride growing...

No, he's too young now. But someday he'll have his pride of athiests with like, a bunch of athiestic supermodels and etc.

[GB-GIL Trans-global]

Originally posted by Xev
Chosen:



Ja, I need another who is worthy of me. :p

(Chosen, you're taking me seriously. That's generally a bad idea)



Naw. I'm not an uber-Xevsch. A herald of the lightning is Xevrathrusra, but the lightning is the uber-Xevsch.

And ah, no, you aren't.



No, he's too young now. But someday he'll have his pride of athiests with like, a bunch of athiestic supermodels and etc.

...or a bunch of ugly nerd girls. :p

(not to say all nerds are ugly. btw Xev, you didn't post your picture yet... oh yeah I need to post mine too)

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by GB-GIL Trans-global


...or a bunch of ugly nerd girls. :p

(not to say all nerds are ugly. btw Xev, you didn't post your picture yet... oh yeah I need to post mine too)

I've been with many women and the intelligent ones are far the most attractive...honest to God. It's alot more meaningful to talk to intelligent women...the airheads talk about rumors, other people, etc. - it's gets old and very very irritating and non-constructive


Originally posted by Xev
Ja, I need another who is worthy of me.

(Chosen, you're taking me seriously. That's generally a bad idea)

Of course I'm not taking you seriously Xev-xev ;)

hahahaha :p

[wet1]

Folks,

If we could return to topic...

[Xev]

Wet1:

NO!!!

Chosen: Good boy. Xevrathrusra's wisdom might be a bit beyond you....I don't think so though.

GB-Gil: Or a bunch of really hot nerd girls.

[~The_Chosen~]

Originally posted by wet1
Folks,

If we could return to topic...

I thought it was settled already...:D


Originally posted by Xev
Chosen: Good boy. Xevrathrusra's wisdom might be a bit beyond you....I don't think so though.

Good boy? You must not value your life Xev, ok good girl? :D

[Bebelina]

GB, nobody will ever reach 100% maturity, that is an immature statement. :p What most people will reach is however a more relaxed view of themselves, a wider perspective of life, which allows them to be silly without making fools of themselves. To have compassion for the ego's need to be reinforced, and meet it halfway without letting it have the upper hand of your personality. It's a pleasant feeling, wait and see....;)
Little like senility...:D

[Adam]

When I have children they will not be taught such lies as truth. regarding religions, fairy tales, and all such things, my kids will be taught the the various mythologies from around the world, just as they will be taught all other things. I would most likely tell my kids that Christmas is a tradition of people giving gifts each year to be nice to each other,a nd that's all the magic and mystery you really need in the world; and I'll tell them the rest is just fun stories and myths, which they might also enjoy.

[Agent@5]

Originally posted by ~The_Chosen~



Work with kids Agent@5, you're a teenager right? It'll be cool experience, plus women should love children. ;)

hehe I do, in fact I am second in charge of a child care centre while im at Uni... not studying childcare, but i deal with kids everyday. hehehehe

[Agent@5]

i can see good and bad about it.

Good where as when they grow up they will learn not to accpet everything as truth just becoz someone said it was.

Bad, becoz they will realise all the good things in life are fantasies, and that life without fanatsies is quite mundain. WHen in fact, it is not.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Agent@5

Bad, becoz they will realise all the good things in life are fantasies, and that life without fanatsies is quite mundain. WHen in fact, it is not.
I agree. The normal world around us is choc-full of weird and amazing stuff, but most people just don't see it.

[Zero]

What? It is absolutely necessary for kids to believe in Santa when they are young!! It is a major part of teachign them to dream. Pity the poor intellectual who does not know how to dream.

I tend to be a cold intellectual, but I do dream. I also have very high respect for poets.

[Agent@5]

Originally posted by Zero
What? It is absolutely necessary for kids to believe in Santa when they are young!! It is a major part of teachign them to dream. Pity the poor intellectual who does not know how to dream.

I tend to be a cold intellectual, but I do dream. I also have very high respect for poets.

I think imagination is a true sign of intellgence. And yes, santa claus is a magic that is created by big corporations, and kept going by advertising. As much as we wont want to admit it, Santa is in the shops to get you there, Santa is a big marketing gimmick and frankly I dont trust it. I think its saying, well the real world is fu.. screwd so lets just make up an imaganary world. When we need to teach our children to appreciate the greatness of the world that exists. And also the bad, so they know that they have the power to change it.....

[spookz]

santa probably pales in comparison to a kids fantasy world

[Agent@5]

You know, I think Karma is a adult version of the tooth fairy, a way of convincing us that if we do good things we will recieve good things. Thats bull shit, ive seen pretty horrible things happen to the best of people and pretty darn good things happen to those who dont deserve it. This world is not balanced. no matter how many ideals are tried to be enforced. Hehehe its funny, adults go, here here belive in santa claus and then they say, kay santa wasnt true but a guy who made EVERY single animal walk two by two onto one boat, and went round making everyone better, being the pinnicle of goodness, yeah belive in him, im not kidding you this time, this guy is real!

hehehehe people never grow up, they just get more dilluded.