question

[dance4life5195]

I am doing a science fair project that involves water on mars. Since the surface temperature on mars does not make liquid water possible, I have decided to do my project with ice. Does anyone have any ideas as to a way I can go about designing some sort of "ice sampler" type item which can perhaps find and take up ice? I have some ideas, but I am still short some.

Thanks!!!!!!!

[cosmictraveler]

An Ice tray would be a way to start.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Q9R7BUURWvYmNM:http://www.fixya.com/uploads/Howto/wh78692CD.jpg

[dance4life5195]

Thank you for this idea. I suppose I didn't quite express myself clearly enough:bawl:
I suppose what I meant was I need something that can actually take ice off of a surface.

Thanks!!!!!!!!

[BenTheMan]

This sounds like a difficult project.

What did you have in mind? I mean, you could hook a vacuum cleaner (like a Dust Buster) up to a remote controlled car. Then you'd have to figure out how to power the dust buster from the car, so you could remotely turn it on and off.

Other than building a robot (which is what you're really talking about), I don't see any easy options.

[cosmictraveler]

Thank you for this idea. I suppose I didn't quite express myself clearly enough:bawl:
I suppose what I meant was I need something that can actually take ice off of a surface.

Thanks!!!!!!!!

You could rent this lady out ...

http://blog.nj.com/entertainment_impact_celebrities/2008/04/large_jade3.jpg

[Billy T]

Ice grown from low pressure H2O vapor slowly froms hexagonal crystals, I think, not snow flakes*. These crystals form in the high atmosphere on Earth. On suitabLe night you can often see a 22.5 degree ring around the moon because of them. This because there is a minium deflection angle for light passing thru any prisim. I.e. the rays from the moon that you see the moon with are coming directly to your eye. There are other that differ from them by as 10 dgrees, but they can not single scatter or refract to your eye. Nor can those at 22 degrees from the direct ray. Some at 24 degrees can in the ice crystals that happen to have the orientation to refract path thru 24 degrees. Differnet orientations refract at least 22.5 degrees but the inner edge is of the ring around the moon is quite sharp sharp.

I suggest you learn about this and consider carful measurement of the sky when Looking at the intensity in the angular range 20 to 25 degrees from the sun, for the sharp "ice ring around the sun" IN THE THIN ATMOSPHERE.

It will not be easy as the direct sunlight will internally scatter in your insturmention. First step is to have a disk obsure the entire sun, but if it is a circle there will be a bright central spot formed (read about Fresnel zones).

Fortunately a few years ago, someone told how to make the almost circular edge systematically ragged to kill that spot. - You will at least learn a lot about physical optic.
---------------
*You should be able to make these vapor deposition hex H2O crystals in your freezer, if you have one, but take a month - don't try to rush it.

[orcot]

Take a drill and attach a cilinder to it, now attach the whole to a heating plate, so that the cilinder normally stays in but can retract maybe ?15? centimeters out.

The id being that the cilinder could be made of a transparant material so ones the probe takes a sample it can analyse it's spectrum and general appearence. With perhaps some tiny holes in it the ID being that a needle like device could puncture the ice and sample trapped air bubbels.

Now the drill isn't that long so after sampeling 15 centimeters deep the heater plate could be activated melting through 10 centimets of ice, so the next drill will sample 5cm melted and refrozen ice and the next 10 centimeters be once again pure untouched ice. Perhaps you can add a little suction pump on top the analyse chamber that blows the old ice sample out.

annyway that sounds difficult enough to construct.

Use a old ceramic cooking plate for the heater use a drill to make a hole in the middle attach a softmetal torus in the middle and use a ??? I don't know the word in english but it's a little metal bar to cut screw edges on the inside (well use the biggest one you can find and take a little cilinder and also carve some screw edges so you can screw them together. The ID being if you ancker the plate to the ice with pins and ad a motor on the cilinder it would dig itsel in the ice coming back up witch the sample.

... Are you actually going to build this or yust design this because it's a lot of effort with no practical uses and requires a work bench and a coocking plate

[kaneda]

Boiling water is giving the molecules sufficient energy to escape the liquid. As you lower, the atmospheric pressure, water needs less energy so boils at an ever lower temperature. Ice on Mars is not going to boil because of the low temperature but I think the kinetic energy of the winds on Mars is sufficient along with the thin atmosphere to make ice slowly disappear.

You could try two blocks of ice. One, the control block and the other with a fan blowing on it, which should melt faster. Ideally it would be done at below zero where the ice would not normally melt and in a vacuum jar where you can reduce the atmospheric pressure while a fan inside blows what is left of it onto the ice.

[orcot]

Boiling water is giving the molecules sufficient energy to escape the liquid. As you lower, the atmospheric pressure, water needs less energy so boils at an ever lower temperature. Ice on Mars is not going to boil because of the low temperature but I think the kinetic energy of the winds on Mars is sufficient along with the thin atmosphere to make ice slowly disappear.

Check your freezer at home ice will form on it by the mere moister in the air, it's not going to disapear without a reason

[Billy T]

Boiling water is giving the molecules sufficient energy to escape the liquid. As you lower, the atmospheric pressure, water needs less energy so boils at an ever lower temperature. ...Hardly any truth in kaneda's post and the above is entirely false, demonstrating complete lack of understanding.

Boiling is when the vapor pressure is equal to the atmospheric pressure.

Some molecules have adequate energy to escape at any temperature above freezing. Some molecules of H2O in the atmosphere will collide with the liquid surface and become part of the liquid. "Evaporation" is when the first rate is greater than the second but the energy require for a molecule to brake free from the attractive force (which is quite complex as water molecules have an inherent electric polarization) of the other molecules DOES NOT depend upon atmospheric pressure.

The temperature at which the vapor pressure is equal to the atmospheric pressure does obviously depend upon the atmospheric pressure. I.e. water boils at lower temperatures as that pressure is reduced.

If there is water or even ice on the surface, there will be some H2O molecules in the atmosphere also. If that were not true there soon would be as the rate at which some molecules exceed the binding force and escape into the atmosphere is always greater than zero. The rate at which molecules in the atmosphere collide and become part of the surface liquid or ice can ONLY be zero if there are none in the atmosphere. If the atmosphere is below freezing most of these atmospheric molecules of H2O will aggregate into ice crystals and when they become larger, they fall to the surface.

[orcot]

Check your freezer at home ice will form on it by the mere moister in the air, it's not going to disapear without a reason

I still stand with my statement.
Ice will indeed form on the inside of your freezer, I never said that a water mocelue couldn't escape by pure change it's the ice in general that wont dissapear.