big red bulls eye on the wtc in 9/11

[fedr808]

Many people say that it was a controlled demolition. But to make it look remotely plausible the plane would have had to have hit near the exact same spot as where the explosives were. Otherwise it would be obvious because it would look like a huge plane hit the tower and there was an explosion 20 stories below. Now here's the funny part. There was no painting of a red bulls eye on the wtc.

A normal plane is traveling at around 400 mph which translates to around the area of 600 feet per second. Probably the pilot if he had very good vision could count how many levels on the building by counting the windows at around 200 feet. Again this means he has to have excellent vision. so that means the pilot has from 1/3 to 1/6 of a second to not only count how many levels were on the building but to also alter the plane's flight course to hit that spot. Now i think we can all believe that that it impossible.

And considering that the plane was rapidly descending and the pilot's probably wanted maximum impact so this means the plane probably would've traveled at around 600 mph, translating to around 900 ish feet per second. This means that the pilots probably would have had around 1/4 to 1/9 of a second to count the levels and correct the planes altitude. Which is even more impossible.

The only other explanation that you scott should've considered was explosives on the plane. Which would be the only way it would work.

In conclusion, since everyone knows no one painted a giant red bull's eye on the side of the wtc, there was no practical way for the plane to have hit the exact position of the supposed explosives so perfectly, and is impossible.

[Headspin]

so this is all impossible?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJi2K8mKTRM

[alaska1976]

What is an actual impossibility by percentages is that one or more teams of expert professionals in drilling, explosives and building detonations were able to drill into at least 20 colums of 40 plus colums on each floor so to cause it to perfectly pancake and to sabotage at least every fifth floor of 110 floors of the two buildings and then to completely go unnoticed while doing all this work for how long? It would have taken years. Many of those pillers were only accessable through offices, bathrooms and the elevator shafts. But of course the theory here is that this was done only at night and through out the entire duration of placing the charges the teams always got done before the workers showed up.
Oh, we also have the new theory to apply that the charges were contained in metal boxes that protected them from going off by accident. Hundreds to thousands of these boxes were used they say. Wonder who got that job? Secret goverment agents with welding back grounds that refuse to speak today? But with this theory we now have to go back to the pillers. Were metal containments cylinder in shape or square or rectangular or something else? Why does this matter? It is much quicker to drill a long hole and stuff in it a cylinder tube and then to seal the hole up with cement or another hard substance then say to make a hole to fit any other shape which would take longer to drill and fill.

[matthyaouw]

The only other explanation that you scott should've considered was explosives on the plane. Which would be the only way it would work.


Possibly in the form of hundreds of gallons of aircraft fuel?

[scott3x]

What is an actual impossibility by percentages is that one or more teams of expert professionals in drilling, explosives and building detonations were able to drill into at least 20 columns of 40 plus columns on each floor so to cause it to perfectly pancake and to sabotage at least every fifth floor of 110 floors of the two buildings and then to completely go unnoticed while doing all this work for how long? It would have taken years.

What evidence do you have that it would have taken years? In any case, Securacom, in which Marvin Bush, Bush's youngest brother, was a principal and financed by KuwAm, had atleast 2 years to get things going between 1996 and 1998. There is apparently some confusion, atleast in earlier years, as to whether or not Securacom really stopped working there in 1998. The irony is that the same author, Margie Burns, has apparently told 2 different stories in 2 different articles.

On January 20, 2002, Margie Burns wrote an article titled "Security, Secrecy and a Bush Brother (http://www.populist.com/03.02.burns.html)". In it, she wrote:
"According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down.""

And yet, in February 15, 2005, in "Trimming The Bushes, Family Business at the Watergate (http://www.washingtonspectator.com/articles/20050215bushes_1.cfm)", she wrote:
"Securacom got the $8.3 million World Trade Center security contract in October 1996 and received about $9.2 million from the WTC job from 1996 (a quarter of its revenues that year) to 1998. But in 1998, the company was "excused from the project" because it could not fulfill the work, according to former manager Al Weinstein, and the electronic security work at the WTC was taken over by EJ Electric, a larger contractor."

Both of these stories can't be right.

There's more too. Originally from arcticbeacom.com, with a surviving excerpt on whatreallyhappened.com's Larry Silverstein page (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/silverstein.html?q=silverstein.html):

"It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings. [Arctic Beacon] "

whatreallyhappened.com continues, stating:
"Other New York developers had been driven into bankruptcy by the costly mandated renovations, and $200 million represented an entire year's worth of revenues from the World Trade Towers. The perfect collapse of the twin towers (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/9-11_wtc_videos.html) changed the picture."

From the Monterrey Herald, with a surviving excerpt on whatreallyhappened.com:

"Under a pending agreement, a developer and his investors will get back most of the down payment that they made to lease the World Trade Center just six weeks before a terrorist attack destroyed the twin towers. Developer Larry Silverstein and investors Lloyd Goldman and Joseph Cayre are nearing a deal that would give them about $98 million of their original investment of $124 million, The New York Times reported Saturday. [MontereyHerald 11/22/2003] "

Here's the New York Times article in question:
Silverstein Will Get Most of His Cash Back In Trade Center Deal (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802EFD6123BF931A15752C1A9659C8B 63)

Whatreallyhappened.com continues:
"Instead of renovation, Silverstein is rebuilding, funded by the insurance coverage on the property which 'fortuitously' covered acts of terrorism. Even better, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, based on the two, in Silverstein's view, separate attacks. The total potential payout is $7.1 billion, more than enough to build a fabulous new complex and leave a hefty profit for the Silverstein Group, including Larry Silverstein himself.

As reported in The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36505-2001Oct22.html), the insurance company, Swiss Re, has gone to court to argue that the 9/11 disaster was only one attack, not two and that therefore the insurance payout should be limited to $3.55 billion, still enough to rebuild the complex."

In the end, as Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/2004/12/06/1206autofacescan06.html) reports,
"A federal jury on Monday ruled that the assault on the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center was in fact two occurrences for insurance purposes. The finding in U.S. District Court in Manhattan means leaseholder Larry Silverstein may collect up to $4.6 billion, according to reports. [Forbes.com 12/06/04]"

Whatreallyhappened.com finishes off:
"The result of court ruling: Silverstein makes a huge profit off of the 9/11 attacks."

[scott3x]

Many of those pillers were only accessable through offices, bathrooms and the elevator shafts. But of course the theory here is that this was done only at night and through out the entire duration of placing the charges the teams always got done before the workers showed up.
Oh, we also have the new theory to apply that the charges were contained in metal boxes that protected them from going off by accident. Hundreds to thousands of these boxes were used they say.

Who is the they in your "that's what they say"? I myself fully admit that how they managed to put in all the explosives is not an easy question to answer. This may certainly have helped with the finishing touches, atleast, however:
Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down (http://69.28.73.17/thornarticles/powerdown.html)


Wonder who got that job? Secret goverment agents with welding back grounds that refuse to speak today? But with this theory we now have to go back to the pillers. Were metal containments cylinder in shape or square or rectangular or something else? Why does this matter? It is much quicker to drill a long hole and stuff in it a cylinder tube and then to seal the hole up with cement or another hard substance then say to make a hole to fit any other shape which would take longer to drill and fill.

As to who go the job, I myself am not sure.

However, it seems a lot of evidence points towards involvement by Israel's Mossad:
Mossad - The Israeli Connection To 911 (http://www.rense.com/general64/moss.htm)

Mossad & 911 (http://www.konformist.com/911/mossad-911.htm)

911 Was a Mossad False Flag Operation (http://www.rense.com/general21/was911mossad.htm)

The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html)

Those are the first 5 links if you google "Mossad 911". There are many more.

[mike47]

The five dancing Israelis should be brought to a full investigation under the US laws .

[John99]

they were investigated. the thing is that dancing is not a crime.

[spidergoat]

It seems that they were. What if they did nothing wrong? There is no evidence whatsoever that they were responsible. If I worked for Israeli intelligence, I would film the event too, and I might even be excited that terrorism would finally be taken seriously by the Bush administration.

[scott3x]

The five dancing Israelis should be brought to a full investigation under the US laws .

You may not know that Stryder has banned discussions of this sort on sciforums and has closed many threads on this subject as a result; his reasoning was summed up in this post (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2307602&postcount=123). Quoting it:


The whole 9/11 conspiracies that Scott, Psyky and Tony have been throwing around could be construde as Treason since their suggestions tend to implicate their government in mass murder of their own people and a coverup. The reason they probably haven't been pulled in on it is because they'd use the argument "The governments trying to suppress the truth" if they were to be brought in. So there they sit, conspiring, waving their rights to Freespeech in peoples faces.

It can be identified that they don't care anything about the truth, because if they did they wouldn't start with the conspiracy of there being bombs. They would start with investigation into the aircrafts, into how they were hijacked, into how they were flown into the buildings (Which I'm sure you've seen the blackbox outputs)

Since their Obsession has blinded them, it means that there is no discussion, just rhetoric like some sort of new age cult. For this reason I am shutting the thread down for the last time. I thank those that did try to seriously entertain their theories and try to dig around for information on things that to be honest aren't even worth looking at.

The 9/11 Conspiracy will no longer be discussed on this forum unless there is some startling new development, which doesn't come from a Truther but from the Government or Press representatives in regards to leaked information. Until that time, please vacate this forum if thats all you've got to talk about.

Whereupon he closed the thread he posted that message in. So this thread may end up closed very soon now. But until it does, I might as well put in my 2 bits. I don't think the higher ups that got them released would like those Israelies brought back. After all, they apparently put in a lot of effort to get them released, as whatreallyhappened.com details in its article The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html):

How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11?

It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots of the dancing Israeli Mossad agents - here's the most logical scenario:

1. The Israeli "movers" cheered the 9-11 attacks to celebrate the successful accomplishment of the greatest spy operation ever pulled off in history.

2. One of them, or an accomplice, then calls a 9-1-1 police dispatcher to report Palestinian bomb-makers in a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel.

3. Having thus pre-framed the Palestinians with this phone call, the Israeli bombers then head for the George Washington Bridge instead, where they will drop off their time-bomb van and escape with Urban Moving accomplices.

4. But the police react very wisely and proactively by closing off ALL bridges and tunnels instead of just the Holland Tunnel. This move inadvertently foils the Israelis' misdirection play and leads to their own capture and 40 day torture.

5. To cover up this story, the U.S. Justice Department rounds up over 1000 Arabs for minor immigration violations and places them in New York area jails. The Israelis therefore become less conspicuous as the government and media can now claim that the Israelis were just immigration violators caught in the same dragnet as many other Arabs.

6. After several months, FBI and Justice Department "higher-ups" are able to gradually push aside the local FBI agents and free the Israelis quietly.

Once they were sent back to Israel, they disagreed that they were laughing or happy on the morning of 9/11. But they did mention something rather interesting, as ABC details in its article Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies? (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=123885&page=4):

While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS' questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event."

I suppose they could argue that they just happened to be at the right place at the right time. There's more but I'll leave it at this for now.

[John99]

it is a good thing you are not a prosecutor.

[scott3x]

it is a good thing you are not a prosecutor.

Why is that?

[John99]

you cant convict people because of how you feel.

[scott3x]

you cant convict people because of how you feel.

To be sure. But I'm not just going on what I feel. How many of the articles that I've linked to in this thread alone have you read?

[John99]

i read information from many sources.

[scott3x]

they were investigated. the thing is that dancing is not a crime.

No, dancing is not a crime. The question is, why were they dancing? Why did they happen to be at that particular place to, as they say, "document the event"?

And there's more to this story as well, which you should know if you'd read the link, The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html) that I linked to in a previous post.


As whatreallyhappened.com reports in that article:
The Jerusalem Post later reported that a white van with a bomb was stopped as it approached the George Washington Bridge, but the ethnicity of the suspects was not revealed. Here's what the Jerusalem Post reported on September 12, 2001:

American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge. The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge. Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported. (13 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/jpost.html))

"...two suspects are in FBI custody after a truckload of explosives was discovered around the George Washington Bridge ... The FBI ... says enough explosives were in the truck to do great damage to the George Washington Bridge."

WMV video download (545kB) (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/IMAGES/911_truck_bomb.wmv)

It was reported the van contained tonnes of explosives (14 (http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/09/12/story23429.asp)).

What's really intriguing is that ABC's 20/20 (15 (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1)), the New York Post (16 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/forget.html)), and the New Jersey Bergen Record (17 (http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/12/WTC_Mysteries3.html)) all clearly and unambiguously reported that a white van with Israelis was intercepted on a ramp near Route 3, which leads directly to the Lincoln Tunnel.

But the Jerusalem Post, Israeli National News (Arutz Sheva) (18 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/forget.html)), and Yediot America, (19 (http://www.gothamgazette.com/citizen/jan02/7.shtml)) all reported, just as clearly and unambiguously, that a white van with Israelis was stopped on a ramp leading to the George Washington Bridge, which is several miles north of the Lincoln Tunnel.

It appears as if there may actually have been two white vans involved, one stopped on each crossing. This would not only explain the conflicting reports as to the actual location of the arrests, but would also explain how so many credible eye-witnesses all saw celebrating "middle-easterners" in a white van in so many different locations. It also explains why the New York Post and Steve Gordon (lawyer for the 5 Israelis) originally described how three Israelis were arrested but later increased the total to five.

Perhaps one van was meant to drop off a bomb while the other was meant to pick up the first set of drivers while re-crossing back into New Jersey? If a van was to be used as a parked time-bomb on the GW Bridge, then certainly the drivers would need to have a "get-away van" to pick them up and escape. And notice how the van (or vans) stayed away from the third major crossing -the Holland Tunnel- which was where the police had originally been directed to by that anti-Palestinian 9-1-1 "mystery caller". A classic misdirection play.

From there, the story gets even more suspicious. The Israelis worked for a Weehawken moving company known as Urban Moving Systems. An American employee of Urban Moving Systems told the The Record of New Jersey that a majority of his co-workers were Israelis and they were joking about the attacks.

The employee, who declined to give his name said: "I was in tears. These guys were joking and that bothered me." These guys were like, "Now America knows what we go through." (20 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/sears.html))

A few days after the attacks, Urban Moving System's Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He was in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (21 (http://www.state.nj.us/lps/ca/press/storage.htm)).

Suter's departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al-Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. (22 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/israeli_spies_911.html))

The Jewish weekly The Forward reported that the FBI finally concluded that at least two of the detained Israelis were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. This was confirmed by two former CIA officers, and they noted that movers' vans are a common intelligence cover. (23 (http://www.counterpunch.org/ketcham03072007.html)). The Israelis were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released. (24 (http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1))

"There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11." (25 (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/israeli_spies_911.html))

[scott3x]

i read information from many sources.

So do I. But how many of the sources that I've provided in this thread have you read?

[John99]

i am not required to read your link floods. i know as much as you do about this dr. zhivago.

[scott3x]

i am not required to read your link floods.

I know. But you might want to try it some day; you might learn something ;-)


i know as much as you do about this dr. zhivago.

I assume you're comparing me with the fictional character of Doctor Zhivago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Zhivago), which I believe The Unbearable Lightness of Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Being) was probably atleast in part inspired by (different countries, same doctor torn between 2 women concept). I never read the novel, but I liked the movie of it quite a bit. Perhaps you made the reference because I'm polyamorous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory)? I actually did like 2 women quite a bit; I didn't want to choose between them, but I suppose you could say they somewhat forced my hand.

[John99]

I know. But you might want to try it some day

we went over that already.


I assume you're comparing me with the fictional character of Doctor Zhivago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_Zhivago), which I believe The Unbearable Lightness of Being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unbearable_Lightness_of_Being) was probably atleast in part inspired by (different countries, same doctor torn between 2 women concept). I never read the novel, but I liked the movie of it quite a bit. Perhaps you made the reference because I'm polyamorous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyamory)? I actually did like 2 women quite a bit; I didn't want to choose between them, but I suppose you could say they somewhat forced my hand.[/

Nope.

[fedr808]

Their still remains the fact of the matter that a bunch of pilots could not possibly hit the building exactly where the explosives were planted. It's just impossible.

[Uno Hoo]

Their still remains the fact of the matter that a bunch of pilots could not possibly hit the building exactly where the explosives were planted. It's just impossible.

Bull Loney. Same principle as a major league batter interacting with a 90 MPH fastball. Batter does not count inches above ground where ball is in flight toward plate. Many long home runs have been hit off of 90 MPH fastballs. Especially fat fastballs exactly over middle of plate. WTC buildings were fat fastballs exactly over middle of plate.

Column-weakening means could have been applied to a range of elevations greater than one story of building(s), expanding strike zone like impatient home plate umpire. Tell me, does hard evidence prove that building(s) initiated collapse exactly at point(s) of plane impact(s)?

[shaman_]

No the collapse did not initiate exactly at the point of impact. The impact alone did not cause the collapse. The collapse began where the fire had weakened the steel the most.

Other theories I have heard are that there were explosives in the basement, explosives on every third floor the whole way up and the idea being suggested by the truthers in the last thread here was that there was over 100 tons of ultrasupermegathermite snuck were into the towers. Apparently no one noticed....

There is no compelling evidence for any of these theories of course.

[Uno Hoo]

My post was intended to address only one point. That the pilots did not have to take time to count and calculate and thread a needle.

Whether the resulting catastrophe was an inside job or not, the pilots did not need superhumanly impossible aiming talent.

An inside job could have relied on enough widespread preweakened columns so that, like in horseshoes and hand grenades, "close counts". Explosives were not the only preweakening means possible.

And, many have volubly claimed that a non-conspiratorial terrorist attack could allegedly have resultantly fire weakened enough widespread columns so that "close counts".

Either way, pin point pilot aim accuracy was not a critical limitation.

In my humble opinion.

[stereologist]

fedr808 I think was beaten to death in another thread here a while back, but it may be that Scott has come up with another delusional mess to replace the previous delusional mess he posted. Not only do the planes hit the explosives, but they survive the impacts and fires. So these super dependable demolitions then begin to fail later on and produce squibs.

If a tire company was making these things they might have to run an ad saying,
"Our tires can tackle the roughest, meanest, most ornery roads in the world. Just don't run them on smooth roads - they tend to go flat."

[Grim_Reaper]

Their still remains the fact of the matter that a bunch of pilots could not possibly hit the building exactly where the explosives were planted. It's just impossible.

All they would need would be the altitude at which the exsplosives would be placed and program the flight computer or that altitude and Bobs your uncle. It would be impossible to count the floors but plausible that they used the flight computer on a preprogramed flight path.

[stereologist]

Do you have any evidence that the hijackers knew how to program the flight computer or took instructions in that task? Doesn't the flight of the plane hitting the south tower suggest that the plane was not on a flight computer? Did the recovered FDRs indicate the use of flight computers on the other aircraft? I'm not familiar with the aircraft, but weren't the transponders and possibly other equipment disabled on the aircraft? Would these have had any effect on using a pre-programmed flight?

[Grim_Reaper]

Do you have any evidence that the hijackers knew how to program the flight computer or took instructions in that task? Doesn't the flight of the plane hitting the south tower suggest that the plane was not on a flight computer? Did the recovered FDRs indicate the use of flight computers on the other aircraft? I'm not familiar with the aircraft, but weren't the transponders and possibly other equipment disabled on the aircraft? Would these have had any effect on using a pre-programmed flight?

As far as I know the transpoders were turned off on the planes this does not trun off the flight systems just the Ident beacon as far as I know. And I did not here anything about them not using the flight systems on the Twin tower planes. And yes the Higjackers were familiar with programing of the flight systems of these planes. I think they would have had to have been on as it would be extermely hard to fly by the seat of your pants on one of the aircraft going the speed they were. It would be plauseible for them to use the flight systems on the planes to set the altitude and then take control just before impact. I never heard anything about the Flight data records from these 2 planes.

[Grim_Reaper]

I did find this link

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flightdata.html

[mike47]

The media are denying the people the chance to know the truth by siding with the Administration version of events . Surely there are many writers who wrote books, articles......etc and concluded that Osama Bin Laden could not have been the one who had any part in it at all . In democracy the media should let the other side of the equation express itself and it should be given equal opportunity on air and in print . fair is fair folks .

[stereologist]

Fair is fair folks? So you want equal time for racists, drug dealers, street gangs, and whomever claims they need to be part of a democracy?

OK back on track.

From Grim Reapers link:
To date, none of the contents of any of the FDRs from the two jetliners that hit the Twin Towers have been made public.

That would be because the FDRs were not recovered.

So the claim is that the planes hit exactly where they had to hit to match explosives that were not heard and left no traces of explosives, detonators, or anything else.

[shaman_]

The media are denying the people the chance to know the truth by siding with the Administration version of events . If people are siding with the official version it is because they see the 9/11 conspiracy is a collection of urban myths.


Surely there are many writers who wrote books, articles......etc and concluded that Osama Bin Laden could not have been the one who had any part in it at all . What are you talking about?! Go to Amazon, there are plenty of books by people like David Ray Griffin.


In democracy the media should let the other side of the equation express itself and it should be given equal opportunity on air and in print . fair is fair folks .The media have no control over the internet, which is more effective than books and TV nowadays.

There are books, movies, tv shows, websites that claim that there was a conspiracy. The views of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are found easily. The majority are supporting the official story because they see that the conspiracy is a list of mistakes and misrepresentations of the truth.

In the eyes of some conspiracy theorists this lack of support just becomes more evidence of a conspiracy.

[stereologist]

Well stated Shaman.

[shaman_]

Thanks mate.

[The Esotericist]

Their still remains the fact of the matter that a bunch of pilots could not possibly hit the building exactly where the explosives were planted. It's just impossible.

You are absolutely correct. In fact, at the SPEED the plane was going? It would be difficult for any pilot, even a top notch ace to even HIT the building. Let alone a novice. And twice? Not likely. Or so says an expert in the field, with more expertise than anyone on this board, one the world's most experienced pilots.

He states that it just isn't physically possible for planes to hit the buildings, going at that velocity, at that altitude.

John Lear, son of Bill Lear (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ TT
23 Type ratings
Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

John Lear - 911 Remote Controlled Planes & No Plane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2RrQWsGes&feature=related)
Likewise, if you want someone to believe that a plane and fire took down these buildings, perhaps you should
1) Provide evidence of the planes (and correct evidence at that.)
and
2) Run a demonstration, or cite another case history or example where a steel frame building of this size and construction type has collapsed in a similar manner with such short a time and so little fuel.
911 Truth Finally On Mainstream Media (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/24403/911_Truth_finally_on_Mainstream_Media/)

If you wish to see John's entire three hour interview, you can PM me, and I will direct you to the link.

[The Esotericist]

That would be because the FDRs were not recovered.


The reason the FDR's weren't recovered? There were no planes.

[The Esotericist]

So the claim is that the planes hit exactly where they had to hit to match explosives that were not heard and left no traces of explosives, detonators, or anything else.

Don't know what planet or reality you are from, but I have SEEN with my own eyes the evidence of the explosives in photographs and videos. :rolleyes:

[fedr808]

You are absolutely correct. In fact, at the SPEED the plane was going? It would be difficult for any pilot, even a top notch ace to even HIT the building. Let alone a novice. And twice? Not likely. Or so says an expert in the field, with more expertise than anyone on this board, one the world's most experienced pilots.

He states that it just isn't physically possible for planes to hit the buildings, going at that velocity, at that altitude.

John Lear, son of Bill Lear (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ TT
23 Type ratings
Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

John Lear - 911 Remote Controlled Planes & No Plane (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N2RrQWsGes&feature=related)
Likewise, if you want someone to believe that a plane and fire took down these buildings, perhaps you should
1) Provide evidence of the planes (and correct evidence at that.)
and
2) Run a demonstration, or cite another case history or example where a steel frame building of this size and construction type has collapsed in a similar manner with such short a time and so little fuel.
911 Truth Finally On Mainstream Media (http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/24403/911_Truth_finally_on_Mainstream_Media/)

If you wish to see John's entire three hour interview, you can PM me, and I will direct you to the link.


Are you implying that the idea of Kamikaze pilots hitting our ships in World War 2 was also a myth?

A plane that size could hit the world trade centers. Not too dificult either.

There are a million other people in the world with his same set of qualifications that believe otherwise.

Are you saying that 500,000 people are in on this conspiracy?

[fedr808]

and that same woo-woo believes that there are secret cities in the moon, that there are domes and arches on the moon, that there are hidden entrances into the moon, that there are aliens mining the rings of saturn...

That venus's atmosphere is not sulfuric acid and it is not 800 degrees, but that another alien civilization lives there...

[The Esotericist]

Are you implying that the idea of Kamikaze pilots hitting our ships in World War 2 was also a myth?
Apples and Oranges. Clearly, you didn't view my evidence. You are not qualified, and do not understand the difference in aircraft.


There are a million other people in the world with his same set of qualifications that believe otherwise.

Cite five.

Are you saying that 500,000 people are in on this conspiracy?
Nope. I'm saying that the official story doesn't add up, there are no planes, and it was explosives, that is all. The rest? Well, it needs to be investigated, that is all anyone who isn't engaged in clinical belief preservation or denial is desirous of.

[The Esotericist]

and that same woo-woo believes that there are secret cities in the moon, that there are domes and arches on the moon, that there are hidden entrances into the moon, that there are aliens mining the rings of saturn...

That venus's atmosphere is not sulfuric acid and it is not 800 degrees, but that another alien civilization lives there...

Fallacy: Poisoning the Well

Description of Poisoning the Well

This sort of "reasoning" involves trying to discredit what a person might later claim by presenting unfavorable information (be it true or false) about the person. This "argument" has the following form:

1. Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.
2. Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.
Nice.

[fedr808]

Apples and Oranges. Clearly, you didn't view my evidence. You are not qualified, and do not understand the difference in aircraft.




Cite five.


Nope. I'm saying that the official story doesn't add up, there are no planes, and it was explosives, that is all. The rest? Well, it needs to be investigated, that is all anyone who isn't engaged in clinical belief preservation or denial is desirous of.

And you are qualified?

Im pretty sure that the 99% of COMPETANT experts that rule in favor of the current story in that 2 planes hit the towers and the towers fell down is the right story.

99% kicks the crap out of your woo-woo that claims aliens are strip mining the rings of saturn.

And it's apples to apples, if a zero dogfighter can hit a 500 foot long aircraft carrier while both objects are moving and flack is being blow up in their faces, im pretty sure a 757 could hit the world trade center.

That is your strategy, whenever someone doesnt agree with you, you call them unqualified and delirious. Because you have NO counter arguement, you know my arguements are true yet you ignore them and insult ME.

[fedr808]

Nice.

even nicer
John has learned many incredible and interesting facts about the solar system and planets including the existence of huge structures, arches, bridges and domes on the moon, cities on Mars, huge extraterrestrial ships mining the rings of Saturn, the incredible but secret agenda of Apollo 17.

[John99]

Apples and Oranges. Clearly, you didn't view my evidence. You are not qualified, and do not understand the difference in aircraft.

you have to be qualified to know that an airplane can hit a gigantic building?

that is a new one.

[stereologist]

The reason the FDR's weren't recovered? There were no planes.
Ludicrous.

[stereologist]

Don't know what planet or reality you are from, but I have SEEN with my own eyes the evidence of the explosives in photographs and videos.
I know you are from an alternate reality since there were no explosions in photographs or videos. There were no explosive reports. No explosives found in the debris. No detonators found in the debris.

[stereologist]

there are no planes, and it was explosives
The planes were recorded by many cameras and seen by thousands of witnesses. The place was full of wreckage from the planes. And no explosives.

[MacGyver1968]

Sweet...Eso is a no planer? So what hit the buildings then?

[stereologist]

Good to see you MacGyver.

Here is what people inside the building stated:
My name is Jeff Benjamin and I was visiting a client, Axcelera Specialty Risk, on the 83rd floor of the North Tower when we observed an approaching aircraft (American Airlines Flt.11)from a distance of aprox. 3-4 miles. At the time we initially spotted the plane, it appeared to be level with us. We could distinctly identify the American airlines insignia and my client commented that perhaps the plane had taken off from Kennedy and was experiencing mechanical problems. As the plane approached us it seemed to climb. I stood up from the conference table and walked over to the window assuming as everyone did that there was no imminent danger. As the plane came closer we could see that it was traveling at a high rate of speed and the sound of the engines intensified. Immediately before impact we could see images in the cockpit and the plane banked sharply. A split second later we heard an echoing shot, fell to the floor and observed a fireball followed by debris which struck the side of the building. At the same time you could feel the building sway every so slightly for a brief moment. We immediately retreated towards the main part of the office where we noticed a huge fireball shooting out of the elevator shaft which quickly disappeared. Source


From a window on the 61st floor in the north tower, Ezra Aviles had seen everything. He knew it was no bomb. His window faced north, and he saw the plane tearing through the skies, heading straight for the tower. It had crashed into the building over his head-how far, he was not sure. Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn "102 minutes, The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers." Henry Holt & Co. New York.; 2005.


I heard the loud roar of airplane engines outside. I turned in my chair so that I could see out the window. About three or four plane lengths away, I saw a huge jetliner coming at the building. I said, "That guy is low!" I spoke loud enough that my colleague sitting in the cubicle next to mine heard me. I saw the nose of the plane and then the smooth underbelly and one of the wings. It was just above me, a little bit to the right, and slightly bent so the wing over me was higher than the other wing. I couldn't see any windows or recognise any markings but I noticed the landing gear was up. It had just registered that this was no small plane when it entered our building two floors above me. –George SleighSource


"I saw the plane come in. My office faces north. I just finished my coffee and I heard my friend say, 'Oh no, oh no.' This plane was coming right at us, then it went up and hit the upper floors. –Nicholas Scinicariello, 86th floor Source

[The Esotericist]

you have to be qualified to know that an airplane can hit a gigantic building?

that is a new one.

yes, you would have to be a pilot to be aware that precision flying of that type of aircraft, that low, at that SPEED, is near impossible. apparently. since you all believe it can be done, along with nearly the entire population of the earth. . . as they say, seeing is believing, no?

[The Esotericist]

Good to see you MacGyver.

Here is what people inside the building stated:

I never said people didn't see planes.

[John99]

:confused:

[John99]

woo wooo....train is now leaving the station.

[fedr808]

yes, you would have to be a pilot to be aware that precision flying of that type of aircraft, that low, at that SPEED, is near impossible. apparently. since you all believe it can be done, along with nearly the entire population of the earth. . . as they say, seeing is believing, no?

Eso, getting a 100-200 foot plane to hit a 90+ story building is not that dificult and when you think about it, things that are much more dificult have been done before in aerospace.

Just think about mid air refueling, two planes going 700-800 miles per hour have to get within like 30 feet of each other and stay stable for several minutes.

Or the apollo mission where the command module had to dock with the lunar module, they had to hit a target the size of a motorcycle while going at tens of thousands of miles per hour.

Hell, in a flight simulator even I could hit a building.

[MacGyver1968]

I never said people didn't see planes.

No.. you said there were no planes:

The reason the FDR's weren't recovered? There were no planes.

If there were no planes, how did people see planes?

[fedr808]

I never said people didn't see planes.

You say there weren't planes

And now you say you didnt say that and that there were planes.

Sounds like a woo woo trying to cover their ass.

[mike47]

Before 9/11 planes hit buildings and the buildings did not come to a zero point like the Towers Of Deception in NY .

[MacGyver1968]

Before 9/11 planes hit buildings and the buildings did not come to a zero point like the Towers Of Deception in NY .

Que?

[The Esotericist]

Here's how people saw what they saw. Just one big Movie show.
Cisco Telepresence Magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcfNC_x0VvE)
Richard Branson Hologram - Virgin Digital Launch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicaK7NTHQI&feature=related)
The technology has been around for some time, of course, the covert government has the best of it.

[John99]

so much for intelligent discussion.

[The Esotericist]

You say there weren't planes

And now you say you didnt say that and that there were planes.

Sounds like a woo woo trying to cover their ass.

You're thinking is so linear, so uncreative. Nope, not in fact what I said at all, you are reading into things. I DO STILL maintain there were no planes. I never said that there were planes. I SAID, they SAW planes silly. :p Pay attention!

[mike47]

I never said people didn't see planes.
Planes with remote controls ?.
Just like the drones .

[The Esotericist]

No.. you said there were no planes:



If there were no planes, how did people see planes?

They didn't see planes, they saw something else. Try to be imaginative, will ya?

[The Esotericist]

Planes with remote controls ?.
Just like the drones .
Negative.

[mike47]

Negative.
Proof ?.

[MacGyver1968]

Here's how people saw what they saw. Just one big Movie show.
Cisco Telepresence Magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcfNC_x0VvE)
Richard Branson Hologram - Virgin Digital Launch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicaK7NTHQI&feature=related)
The technology has been around for some time, of course, the covert government has the best of it.

We see things because light bounces off them and is reflected back to our eyes. So how do you project a hologram into thin air, on a bright sunny day, with nothing to reflect it back? It's the reason they use a screen at the movie theater.

[The Esotericist]

Again, see post #59 and figure it out, I must go eat dinner now, I'm hungry.

[fedr808]

Here's how people saw what they saw. Just one big Movie show.
Cisco Telepresence Magic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcfNC_x0VvE)
Richard Branson Hologram - Virgin Digital Launch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HicaK7NTHQI&feature=related)
The technology has been around for some time, of course, the covert government has the best of it.

Except Eso, the best they can do with said technology is mid resolution man sized projections.

Now to project that person they would need about half a dozen to a dozen projectors each around 2 to three feet in length, that means for an entire plane youd need around 200 or so projectors (one projector for every perspective angle) each one around 50 to 60 feet in size with a lens from 20 to 45 feet and as someone whom has been around several projectors in their life, this is not even remotely possible.

Plus, for these kinds of holograms they need something to bounce the light off of usually a very thin water vapor, and even then if you look at all of the projections they are semi transparent. That plane did not look transparent at all, and Im pretty damn sure nobody saw 200 government helicopters hoisting 60 foot long projectors on 9/11.

[fedr808]

We see things because light bounces off them and is reflected back to our eyes. So how do you project a hologram into thin air, on a bright sunny day, with nothing to reflect it back? It's the reason they use a screen at the movie theater.

your forgetting Mac Geyver that they had invisible UFOs overhead to pour down water vapor for the projections.

If it cant be explained by even a woo woo, than it's got to be a UFO.

[fedr808]

They didn't see planes, they saw something else. Try to be imaginative, will ya?

http://education.yahoo.com/homework_help/math_help/solutionimages/minigeogt/1/1/1/minigeogt_1_1_1_1_1/f-16-13-ex-1.gif

They saw one of these?:D

Boy next thing youll be telling us is that the government has stockpiles of 60 foot long projectors in area 51.

And your forgetting that area 51 is a normal military base, its a distraction from the REAL cover up which is area 51 and three quarters:p

[Grim_Reaper]

Again, see post #59 and figure it out, I must go eat dinner now, I'm hungry.

Ok so if there were no planes were did the landing gear and jet engine come from that littered the street in the news casts. Oh I know the news guys painted them in there. Or were they halograms too. Come on dude get real do you realize how many people would have to be involved in the cover up of this. Thousands of people would have to be involved if not into the hundreds of thousands. And you mean to tell us that this is possible you have been watching to many episodes of 24 my friend that is a fictional TV show not real sorry.

[fedr808]

Ok so if there were no planes were did the landing gear and jet engine come from that littered the street in the news casts. Oh I know the news guys painted them in there. Or were they halograms too. Come on dude get real do you realize how many people would have to be involved in the cover up of this. Thousands of people would have to be involved if not into the hundreds of thousands. And you mean to tell us that this is possible you have been watching to many episodes of 24 my friend that is a fictional TV show not real sorry.

yah and last time i checked holograms arent solid, when someone came up with a dump truck they may have noticed if they couldnt touch it...

[Grim_Reaper]

yah and last time i checked holograms arent solid, when someone came up with a dump truck they may have noticed if they couldnt touch it...

Unless it is the new type of holograms they had on Star Trek they were solid.... Oh yeah again a TV show just about forgot...

[stereologist]

Esotericist has no idea what a hologram is or what it can do.

A hologram appears to be transparent to the observer. You can't project what appears to be a solid object into a bright lit environment.

[stereologist]

I've working in virtual environment systems attempting to match the virtual environment to props. An important and dominant perceptual aid in understanding the 3d world occurs when an object is seen to obscure another object. Regardless of the projected distance of the virtual objects, the real objects appear closer because you see the solid object through the virtual object and your brain interprets the real objects as being closer. What this means is that if the plane were to have flown in front of a building the brain would have interpreted the building as being closer leading all viewers to be confused about what they were seeing. Such events did not happen, thus no projected images.

[stereologist]

Post 59 is exactly everyone's point, Eso. Time to learn.

I've personally used much better equipment than what Cisco used.

[The Esotericist]

Ok so if there were no planes were did the landing gear and jet engine come from that littered the street in the news casts. Oh I know the news guys painted them in there. Or were they halograms too. Come on dude get real do you realize how many people would have to be involved in the cover up of this. Thousands of people would have to be involved if not into the hundreds of thousands. And you mean to tell us that this is possible you have been watching to many episodes of 24 my friend that is a fictional TV show not real sorry.

I don't have a T.V. I haven't been brainwashed now for several years.

[Grim_Reaper]

I don't have a T.V. I haven't been brainwashed now for several years.

Well apparently on the last washing they rinsed to hard Dude. There is no way in hell they could cover that up they would have to threaten and or payoff thousands of people you cannot get a a small group of people to shut up about something try thousands of them.

[Pincho Paxton]

I'm a bit cautious about conspiracy theories. But there is something seriously wrong with WT7. I have posted a video of how WTC7 fell, but then compare it with the simulations in the second link half way down.

I'll tell you what is completely unreal about the actual film footage. The building collapses from the top down. First the left half falls, and then the right, and then the whole body falls. That's just very unusual. Just watch those top rectangles fall first. They are also timed to two bangs, but I think you need another video to get the bangs timed to the roof.

I have watched lots of implosions, and none of them collapsed those extra roof sections first.

here is film footage....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWFVzBdM5s

Now notice how the reconstruction does not include the top section falling first...

http://tyrannyalert.com/800.html

Can the top section fall first from a fire down below?

Anyway, it's just an observation. Something interesting for Mythbusters. :D

[MacGyver1968]

Again, see post #59 and figure it out, I must go eat dinner now, I'm hungry.


I did, and it didn't answer my question. Notice in both examples, they are inside in a very dark room.

The morning of 9/11 was a crystal clear day, with bright sunshine. There's a very good reason they don't show drive-in movies during the day.

People also didn't just see the planes, they heard them too. Jet engines are really noisy, ya know. What created the sounds of the planes?

[Grim_Reaper]

I'm a bit cautious about conspiracy theories. But there is something seriously wrong with WT7. I have posted a video of how WTC7 fell, but then compare it with the simulations in the second link half way down.

I'll tell you what is completely unreal about the actual film footage. The building collapses from the top down. First the left half falls, and then the right, and then the whole body falls. That's just very unusual. Just watch those top rectangles fall first. They are also timed to two bangs, but I think you need another video to get the bangs timed to the roof.

I have watched lots of implosions, and none of them collapsed those extra roof sections first.

here is film footage....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qWFVzBdM5s

Now notice how the reconstruction does not include the top section falling first...

http://tyrannyalert.com/800.html

Can the top section fall first from a fire down below?

Anyway, it's just an observation. Something interesting for Mythbusters. :D

Yes those are very nice videos and if you listen you can here the noise is from the colaspe of the building they were not made of feathers so there will be load bangs. And I maybe wrong but the WTC7 was constructed the same as the WTC 1 and 2 just smaller scale they had an exo skeleton of steel this makes it more suseptible to the pancake effect of the colapse

[MacGyver1968]

Yes those are very nice videos and if you listen you can here the noise is from the colaspe of the building they were not made of feathers so there will be load bangs. And I maybe wrong but the WTC7 was constructed the same as the WTC 1 and 2 just smaller scale they had an exo skeleton of steel this makes it more suseptible to the pancake effect of the colapse

No..WTC 7 was not constructed in the "box within a box" design like WTC 1 & 2. It used conventional I-beams as structural elements. It did have a unique design, as it was constructed around a power station, and had many long spanning supports. Fire raged in the building for 8 hours, without any fire fighting effort. There was no water to fight the fire. Fireproofing is only rated for a couple of hours. Steel gets hot..loses strength and fails...and buildings fall down.

[Grim_Reaper]

No..WTC 7 was not constructed in the "box within a box" design like WTC 1 & 2. It used conventional I-beams as structural elements. It did have a unique design, as it was constructed around a power station, and had many long spanning supports. Fire raged in the building for 8 hours, without any fire fighting effort. There was no water to fight the fire. Fireproofing is only rated for a couple of hours. Steel gets hot..loses strength and fails...and buildings fall down.

Thankyou for the correction as I said I was not sure about that but yes I do agree about the fire and the steel getting hot. But may be it was a disruptor blast from the romulans that really knocked it down I guess we will never know LOL..

[MacGyver1968]

Thankyou for the correction

It's all good...and by the way, no truther has ever said that...ever... :)


as I said I was not sure about that but yes I do agree about the fire and the steel getting hot. But may be it was a disruptor blast from the romulans that really knocked it down I guess we will never know LOL..

Naw..dude...it was directed energy beams. Swear to god! Dr. Judy Wood told me so, and she has a "Dr." in front of her name.

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/StarWarsBeam1.html

[James R]

You are absolutely correct. In fact, at the SPEED the plane was going? It would be difficult for any pilot, even a top notch ace to even HIT the building. Let alone a novice.

You've never played a flight simulator game, have you? I used to aim commercial jets at the Twin Towers all the time on the flight simulator. They were easy to hit.

I don't have a T.V. I haven't been brainwashed now for several years.

Do you wear a tin foil hat, too? If not, better get yourself one or the aliens and the government will be able to control your thoughts with their mind control rays.

[stereologist]

This claim of hard to hit is fishy. I flew a plane, albeit a weeny plane, and I had no training whatsoever. Like the terrorists I did not take off or land, but while the pilot did paperwork I flew the plane for the 2 hour trip to its destination and got to the right town and did not overshoot by 150 miles. First time I ever sat in the front of the plane and held the controls.

[The Esotericist]

I did, and it didn't answer my question. Notice in both examples, they are inside in a very dark room.

The morning of 9/11 was a crystal clear day, with bright sunshine. There's a very good reason they don't show drive-in movies during the day.

People also didn't just see the planes, they heard them too. Jet engines are really noisy, ya know. What created the sounds of the planes?
I reiterate, you don't know the state of the art, you aren't an expert in what is or is not possible, or how indeed how it is done. You front as an expert in future technologies, give me a break, quit watching T.V. and being brainwashed by "experts."

Nor are you privy to the origin or background of the reliability of these "witnesses."

[The Esotericist]

You've never played a flight simulator game, have you? I used to aim commercial jets at the Twin Towers all the time on the flight simulator. They were easy to hit.

Nice. . . your source of evidence, your support is. . . a. . . video game? Boy, you sure showed me, I can no longer reason with you, I can see who is in denial and is grasping at straws. I present expert testimony, you present. . . crap arguments and insults.

You have the audacity to accuse me of wearing tinfoil hats when it is proven that the government plants stories on network and cable television? When the big media corporations have lobbied and completely controlled the deregulation of the news industry?

Don't talk to a political scientist about the information clearing house. The fourth estate is completely broken, and has been since media deregulation in the eighties. T.V. and radio can own each other, and they can both own papers and cable. It's a cluster fuck, and 85-95% of the population is dumber than a box of rocks, including the ones researching and publishing the stories about boys in bubbles.

When I was in elementary school, and my mother took me to the grocery store? I used to look at the magazines while waiting in line to check out. What did I see? National Geographic, U.S. News and World Report, Time, Newsweek, etc. What do I see today? Soap News, U.S. Weekly, The National Enquirer, etc. garbage. "Tin-foil hat stuff," as it were.

No wonder they thought they could pull this off and get people to believe "terrorists" are attacking our country, and we are fighting them in a war for. . . what? Eight years now?!? And just who the hell is giving them food? Clothing? Medicine? Guns, bullets, munitions, tactical and strategic support for gods sake?! We are the most prosperous country on earth, with the biggest military, they have no allies, and no military budget, and no funding, and no source of arms shipments?!? Yet they fight on for. . . what, eight years?!?

Yeah, I'm a monkeys uncle. Guess what folks, as long as the U.S. wants a base in Central Asia, the War in Afghanistan will NEVER be over. And we will NEVER leave our base in Iraq, NEVER. Get real, stop being moronic, and WAKE THE FUCK UP!

Both parties work for the same people. :shrug:

[stereologist]

I reiterate, you don't know the state of the art, you aren't an expert in what is or is not possible, or how indeed how it is done.

Well I have used the state of the art and you have no idea what you are talking about. It is abundantly clear that MacGyver has more knowledge of this area than you do. He clearly understands the issues which you do not.

[stereologist]

Wow Eso your ranting and raving with James R is the stuff of tinfoil hats. Please remain seated while the world is in motion.

It's a cluster fuck, and 85-95% of the population is dumber than a box of rocks, including the ones researching and publishing the stories about boys in bubbles.
Thanks for letting us in on your private secret that you are so much smarter than everyone else. Frankly, your posts show that you are parts of the "box of rocks" crowd as you so condescendingly call them.

[fedr808]

Hey eso, any pilot out there would say that to hit the world trade center is not that hard.

Hell, people land aircraft going 800 miles per hour onto a moving aircraft carrier with a window the size of a sheet of paper to correctly land it.

Astronauts in space dock craft moving 90000 feet per second with a window the size of a post it note.

Eso, it is not that hard to hit a 90 story building with a 757, not hard at all. And the fact is that leer, while possessing some unique qualifications, is a woo-woo, he thinks aliens are strip mining the rings of saturn.

Eso, I would put money on the fact that I could hit the world trade centers.

Pilots regularly land or hit targets much, much harder than the world trade center.

And even then, the explosion is more consistant with burning fuel than TNT or thermite.

If you saw the images you see the plane hit the building, a fireball coming out the entry and out the exit, if there were TNT there would be an explosion coming out all sides of the building.

[The Esotericist]

Well I have used the state of the art and you have no idea what you are talking about. It is abundantly clear that MacGyver has more knowledge of this area than you do. He clearly understands the issues which you do not.
My apologies, I did not know you two worked in government and had top secret clearance.

[The Esotericist]

Until I see some . . . I don't know, expert testimony, sources, data? I'm sorry, I'm just not convinced any of you know what you are talking about. It's my sourced and presented testimony versus your say so. Not a very good discussion in my book. You all are just giving me your un-sourced opinions, claiming that YOU are experts, so that makes it true.

I put up, now you can all just shut up, mmmkay?

Telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. . . sheesh. . .:wallbang:

[Grim_Reaper]

My apologies, I did not know you two worked in government and had top secret clearance.

Dude you are going to have to back away from the Bong here. Do you even remotely realize what you are saying. You are saying that first the planes that millions of people seen crash into the buildings my self included were fooled into thinking that it only happened and that it was actually an explosion that BTW only exited the building on one side of the building was the blame ofr the colapse of the twin towers. And then every body that was involved eye witness's in the building that heard the jet engines are full of crap and all the rescue people they were in on it and some of them where the equivalent of a Kamakazi and commited suicide and there superiors let them do this. Is this the jist of your liitle tale here.

[fedr808]

Until I see some . . . I don't know, expert testimony, sources, data? I'm sorry, I'm just not convinced any of you know what you are talking about. It's my sourced and presented testimony versus your say so. Not a very good discussion in my book. You all are just giving me your un-sourced opinions, claiming that YOU are experts, so that makes it true.

I put up, now you can all just shut up, mmmkay?

Telling me I don't know what I'm talking about. . . sheesh. . .:wallbang:

Eso, seriously, in order to make your arguement plausible answer this, where would you get projectors big enough to make such a hologram, theyd need to be around 50 feet, (rule of thumb is that they need to be around 1/3 the size of the image for that level of detail)

Eso, any pilot can hit a target like that, it aint that hard.

[The Esotericist]

Hey eso, any pilot out there would say that to hit the world trade center is not that hard.
Perhaps


Eso, it is not that hard to hit a 90 story building with a 757, not hard at all. And the fact is that leer, while possessing some unique qualifications, is a woo-woo, he thinks aliens are strip mining the rings of saturn.
Where did you get this? No he doesn't. He just supports a NASA scientist that has disclosed this. This NASA scientist has photographic evidence from Pioneer 11. His name is Norman R. Bergrun. His book is The Ring Makers of Saturn. I would recommend his site, but the government has bugged it with all sort of worms and viruses, so even a cursory search for it on Google triggers alarms on my Avasti scanner. Go to the site? More alarms. I don't recommend going to the site. Getting a hold of the book will cost you upwards of $200 bones on Amazon. This is REALLY off topic, and it is just an attempt to poison the well, mmkay?



And even then, the explosion is more consistant with burning fuel than TNT or thermite.

If you saw the images you see the plane hit the building, a fireball coming out the entry and out the exit, if there were TNT there would be an explosion coming out all sides of the building.
Explosives experts can makes an explosion of jet fuel go off right where they want it too look any way they want. I'm not doing this any more. Your original contention is that a plane couldn't hit the tower exactly in a pre-planned spot, I agree with you. End of thread.

[The Esotericist]

Eso, seriously, in order to make your arguement plausible answer this, where would you get projectors big enough to make such a hologram, theyd need to be around 50 feet, (rule of thumb is that they need to be around 1/3 the size of the image for that level of detail)

Eso, any pilot can hit a target like that, it aint that hard.
Where do you get this? I don't accept your "rule of thumb." That is why they call it, "TOP SECRET" technology, TOP SECRET. I find your lack of imagination, well, galling.

It's like me coming back to the 1950's and telling someone I've seen T.V.'s less than four inches thick and everyone telling me it just isn't possible, and I'm nuts and don't know what I'm talking about. This is really just hilarious. You think that you KNOW everything there is to know about the state of holographic technology. . . it's, laughable. You are just being arrogant. You don't know everything there is to know. They WOULDN'T necessarily need what you say they would need, that is my point. You don't know what they would need.

According to what you perceive, and according to what you know of commercial applications? Sure, I will concede, it would be impossible given the current state of the technology. That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is, "Here, look at what they are already showing to the public. . . now just TRY to imagine what the government can do."

I had this same discussion about the B-2 bomber with some guy. I told him there is a possibility it holds an anti-gravity generator. He told me it was impossible, because he followed its development since it's inception, and he saw it in action and at an airshow. And yet. . . it's ALWAYS guarded, and they let KNOW ONE get near the thing. HMMM. . . must be just because they don't want any knuckle head to jump in and turn the key and take it for a joy ride, huh?
Don't believe me on the anti-grav. issue? Go here and read the PUBIC papers. . . it seems that it is VERY possible. . .
http://lanl.arxiv.org/ (http://lanl.arxiv.org/)

Give me a break fedr808. I am not so naive as to think our government doesn't have vastly advanced technology that it keeps to itself out of the civilian sector. If you think it doesn't? Well, that's your prerogative, and that is where we will just have to agree to disagree. This is the whole crux of the disagreement, ok?

[stereologist]

My apologies, I did not know you two worked in government and had top secret clearance.
How quaint of you. It just goes to prove that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[stereologist]

It's my sourced and presented testimony versus your say so.

You have posted info of no consequence that we all know about. It is of no consequence as we have all pointed out. The technology in no way is applicable to the situation you claim.

[stereologist]

He just supports a NASA scientist that has disclosed this. This NASA scientist has photographic evidence from Pioneer 11. His name is Norman R. Bergrun. His book is The Ring Makers of Saturn. I would recommend his site, but the government has bugged it with all sort of worms and viruses, so even a cursory search for it on Google triggers alarms on my Avasti scanner. Go to the site? More alarms. I don't recommend going to the site. Getting a hold of the book will cost you upwards of $200 bones on Amazon. This is REALLY off topic, and it is just an attempt to poison the well, mmkay?

It's time to put up or shut up. Post the link.

[Trippy]

Go here and read the PUBIC papers. . . it seems that it is VERY possible. . .
Pubic papers?

Really?

Published in playboy or penthouse?

[Trippy]

You've never played a flight simulator game, have you? I used to aim commercial jets at the Twin Towers all the time on the flight simulator. They were easy to hit.

Fairly sure I managed to hit them with the Concord at least once.

[John99]

read the PUBIC papers

Esotericist, reading is supposed to make you smarter, if that isnt happening then why bother?

[fedr808]

Where do you get this? I don't accept your "rule of thumb."are you a qualified stage and projection lighting operator? That is why they call it, "TOP SECRET" technology, TOP SECRET. I find your lack of imagination, well, galling.
Eso, do you believe in creationism? Those are the only people that believe something exists when there is no proof behind it and they know it. If it is top secret how do you know about it? There is no projector that are 60 feet large. Eso unless you can post a picture of the projector or proof and i mean documentation, patents, cost, etc, IT DOES NOT EXIST END OF STORY
It's like me coming back to the 1950's and telling someone I've seen T.V.'s less than four inches thick and everyone telling me it just isn't possible, and I'm nuts and don't know what I'm talking about. ughhh, so what? Im not saying its not possible to do it, but with our tech and even top secret tech, its not possible. This is really just hilarious.Your the one who thinks that aliens are mining saturn. You think that you KNOW everythingI know more than you, that's all that matters there is to know about the state of holographic technologyYou think that since you imagined it, it exists. You are makign crap up, it doesnt fly.. . . it's, laughable. You are just being arrogant.Your quoting an idiot >.> You don't know everything there is to knowOnce more, I know more than you do. They WOULDN'T necessarily need what you say they would need, that is my point. You don't know what they would need. Yes I actually do, you don't

According to what you perceive, and according to what you know of commercial applications? Sure, I will concede, it would be impossible given the current state of the technology. So aliens must have made 9/11 happen That's not what I am saying. What I am saying is, "Here, look at what they are already showing to the public. . . now just TRY to imagine what the government can do."why would the government waste money on it? They wouldnt, there is almost no practical use for holographic tech other than entertainment

I had this same discussion about the B-2 bomber with some guy. I told him there is a possibility it holds an anti-gravity generator.BS, it does not hold an antigravity generator. If we dont know about it and there is no evidence it exists or that it is even possible, it does not exist. He told me it was impossible, because he followed its development since it's inception, and he saw it in action and at an airshow. And yet. . . it's ALWAYS guarded, and they let KNOW ONE get near the thing. Its got stealth tech, why the hell would they give away their secret, its an amazing advantage, but it doesnt work if everyone knows about it HMMM. . . must be just because they don't want any knuckle head to jump in and turn the key and take it for a joy ride, huh?Eso, do you also believe in fairytales? Because theres about as much evidence for fairies and tinkerbell as there is for your holographic techa nd anti grav and aliens theory
Don't believe me on the anti-grav. issue? Go here and read the PUBICthey probably were pissed out your pubic area papers. . . it seems that it is VERY possible. . .
http://lanl.arxiv.org/ (http://lanl.arxiv.org/)

Give me a break fedr808I dotn give breaks to retards. I am not so naive as to think our government doesn't have vastly advanced technology that it keeps to itself out of the civilian sectoryou watch the syfy channel to much, get a life or atleast egt laid. If you think it doesn't?what evidence is there Well, that's your prerogative, and that is where we will just have to agree to disagree. This is the whole crux of the disagreement, ok?

You are making up technologies to support your theories and than you claim that they do exist and that they are "classified"

If we dont know about them, and there is no evidence for them, than they dont exist.

holo projectors and anti grav tech doesnt exist eso, theres no proof for them whatsoever. No concrete down to earth photographics proof for their existance. End of story.

[Grim_Reaper]

hey guys we better watch out he may hack into the Death ray Sat and cook us all where we sit..

[fedr808]

hey guys we better watch out he may hack into the Death ray Sat and cook us all where we sit..

Ehh, ive got 2, theyre a dime a dozen

[The Esotericist]

holo projectors and anti grav tech doesnt exist eso, theres no proof for them whatsoever. No concrete down to earth photographics proof for their existance. End of story.

True. But that we, John Q. Public, do not have any information for their existence, does not necessarily preclude the possibility. It's a wide wide and weird world. After all, there's actually people that can look at a video of WTC 7 coming down, and be convinced that fire brought it down, isn't that something?

why would the government waste money on it? They wouldnt, there is almost no practical use for holographic tech other than entertainment

did you really just say that? are you really that unimaginative? can you even conceive of a holographic army. . . or ships? anything that would confuse an enemy via visual reconnaissance. . . That's akin to saying the state of the art in camouflage design in commercial application development for hunters and such, have no practical government uses. :bugeye:

[The Esotericist]

It's really interesting. I've noticed that, when it comes to science and technology, members on this board somehow think that access to all available knowledge is indeed, available. There are certainly the best and the most brilliant minds on this board. But is that information allowed to be made public, to be published in a public forum? Yeah, right, sure, whatever, I don't think so.

Yet. . . it's like the people on here have never heard of corporate espionage, national espionage, state secrets, etc. and the like. It is inconceivable to brilliant people that there is actually knowledge they might just not be privy to. Scientific, and technological. As such, it is impossible to have this kind of discussion, because, this sort of person will NEVER admit that there is knowledge that the public does not, and will not ever know.

So, if you want to stick your head in the sand, and say, "la la la, I can't hear you. . . any thing you say, if it isn't published, with proof, it can't possibly exist? I know more than you, and your just stupid." Like I said, that is your prerogative. However, it reminds me very much like the teenager that believes he knows everything. Sad.

[The Esotericist]

Esotericist, reading is supposed to make you smarter, if that isnt happening then why bother?

I do read. I also am aware that the government gives LOTS and LOTS of money to various projects for various reasons. Thus, we can come upon some conclusions, as to what those reasons may be, and perhaps, what other studies have been done that we are not privy to, and what applications the government has put them to.

But then. . . that would take not only reading, but thinking and imagination. . . they don't teach that in schools or uni these days, do they? Perhaps you would like me to teach you? :p

extrapolate
One entry found.
Free Definitions
The Quickest & Easiest Way To Look Up Definitions. Search On.
www.Google.com/Dictionary

Main Entry: ex·trap·o·late
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈstra-pə-ˌlāt\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ex·trap·o·lat·ed; ex·trap·o·lat·ing
Etymology: Latin extra outside + English -polate (as in interpolate) — more at extra-
Date: 1874

transitive verb 1 : to infer (values of a variable in an unobserved interval) from values within an already observed interval
2 a : to project, extend, or expand (known data or experience) into an area not known or experienced so as to arrive at a usually conjectural knowledge of the unknown area <extrapolates present trends to construct an image of the future> b : to predict by projecting past experience or known data

[John99]

I do read.

yes but i said that reading shopuld make you smarter and honestly, if it is making you dumber then it is counterproductive and you should consider just not reading.

in school you cannot just read what you want to read. why would i sit down and read a book by someone who i am smarter than? its a travesty of a wasted tree and a waste of time.

[John99]

for you...i recommend no reading for a full year.

[John99]

double post.

[stereologist]

So after all is said and done Eso takes the long winded way to admit that his claims were baseless.

So, if you want to stick your head in the sand, and say, "la la la, I can't hear you. . . any thing you say, if it isn't published, with proof, it can't possibly exist? I know more than you, and your just stupid." Like I said, that is your prerogative. However, it reminds me very much like the teenager that believes he knows everything. Sad.

Thanks for the childish rant here, and all of the others in which you exhibited your true age - a teenager. When we try to assist you and point out simple mistakes such as your lack of understanding of projected images, you attack others expertise, and avoid learning something. You might take the time to learn instead of being bull headed about it all.

Thus, we can come upon some conclusions, as to what those reasons may be, and perhaps, what other studies have been done that we are not privy to, and what applications the government has put them to.

This reminds of the person that asked the interpretive ranger at Mesa Verde, "How many undiscovered ruins are there?"

[The Esotericist]

This reminds of the person that asked the interpretive ranger at Mesa Verde, "How many undiscovered ruins are there?"
lol.

Good one! Admittedly, this is the 85-90% of the population I was referring to earlier. And yet. . . . you remind me or the arrogant ranger, whose invariable snobbish reply, who knows full well what the tourist was getting at, wanting to know an estimate of how many undiscovered ruins there might be, replies, "oh, there couldn't possibly be any, we have scoured the area too thoroughly for any to remain undiscovered."

Only to look like a total ass a few years later when new ruins are found inside a cave, or buried under a mountain via the result of an earthquake, etc.

[The Esotericist]

yes but i said that reading shopuld make you smarter and honestly, if it is making you dumber then it is counterproductive and you should consider just not reading.

in school you cannot just read what you want to read. why would i sit down and read a book by someone who i am smarter than? its a travesty of a wasted tree and a waste of time.

your judgments and opinions, your estimations, and calibrations on intelligence, knowledge and experience do not interest me.

Who may be more knowledgeable than whom, is indeed, evident to me. Surely, that is the difference between you and I. I DO read what ever I wish, I never do what I am told. For if you do as you are told, you will only think as the institutions wish you to think. For, as is clear, with the folks I must suffer when I try to free a great many insufferable minds, some of them brilliant and great, however, they still are in bondage and in chains of societies strictures and ruts of conventional and uncreative thinking. Limited to seeing only what is presented to them, and believing only what is taught and told to them that they may believe.

It makes control and ruling so much the easier for those at the top of the pyramid. Know you not the first thing of institutional control and power? Have you not a clue what the pyramid with the eye a top of it on the back of the U.S. one dollar bill mean? It means, in school you cannot just read what you want to read. You shall only read what is approved by the learned intellectuals of society, and then they shall believe it to get their paper from the institution, and they will go on and teach the same things. No questions shall be asked, if they are? Ridicule shall be summarily handed out by the ones that are the followers of the dominant paradigm, w/o the teachers having to get their hands dirty in the process.

See if you can gain any insight to how the process works by this short, but instructive video clip.
Why you ridicule truth you haven't heard or that is not accepted by "the herd." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9-uIRZZR40)

[stereologist]

Only to look like a total ass a few years later when new ruins are found inside a cave, or buried under a mountain via the result of an earthquake, etc.

Once again you spout nonsense. You haven't got a clue about the words you post.

Admittedly, this is the 85-90% of the population I was referring to earlier.
No. The reference was to you. That was perfectly clear.

[stereologist]

You're misguided posting of that crappy video is evident in your posts. Posting does not make it a reality. Posting does not make it possible, or plausible. It remains gibberish.

This is a science forum, not a poetry forum. Post with the expectation that evidence will be demanded.

BTW, the ranger never answers the question. And the ranger would never answer with a snobbish reply. Those are your fantasies of what you expect. More likely they are the way you interpret responses to your posts.

[fedr808]

Eso, as far as intelligence goes, you are in maybe the 50% range.

[Trippy]

Eso, as far as intelligence goes, you are in maybe the 50% range.

2nd Quartile?

[The Esotericist]

Once again you spout nonsense. You haven't got a clue about the words you post.


Eso, as far as intelligence goes, you are in maybe the 50% range.

2nd Quartile?

Left. . . Left. . . Left - Right - Left.

[The Esotericist]

This is a science forum, not a poetry forum. Post with the expectation that evidence will be demanded.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm the only person that has posted any links to experts in this thread?

[Grim_Reaper]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm the only person that has posted any links to experts in this thread?

You can post all the links you want that try an support your feeble accusations but the fact remains they are not true. There is no way and i mean NO WAY they could cover that up there are too many people and eye witness' involved. Everybody would have had to have been either Hi or just plain stupid to not see what happened. Except the fact and move on if you keep pursuing this it will eat you alive and you will in most cases either wind up in the nut-house or in Jail as you well let this bother you to the point that you feel the need to act on the feeling of being oppressed. And then before you know it you are the next Timothy McVey or the next Ted Kazinsky. Come on give it a rest. And PS the links you posted were weak at best.

[stereologist]

Thanks for yet another infantile response.

I suppose this is the lame manner in which you admit that you had no supporting evidence.

[mike47]

The US and Israel won too much from 9/11 and therefore I believe they are the ones behind it .

[MacGyver1968]

The US and Israel won too much from 9/11 and therefore I believe they are the ones behind it .

What exactly did we win?

[mike47]

What exactly did we win?
Two colonies, many military bases around the world and getting NATO plus other wannabees to fight Islam, Muslims and help the US steal the oil and resources of sovereighn nations .

[MacGyver1968]

Two colonies, many military bases around the world and getting NATO plus other wannabees to fight Islam, Muslims and help the US steal the oil and resources of sovereighn nations .

Colonies? I don't see any Americans moving to Iraq or Afghanistan. We didn't gain any new military bases we already didn't have. The only thing we "won" was a huge ding to our economy that almost bankrupted the airlines, and a clusterfuck military action that have cost billions (Afganistan). We didn't go to Iraq because of 9/11...we invaded that sovereign country because we believed that Saddam had WMD's. I love how CT's think the U.S. government was savvy enough to pull off 9/11 with all kinds of planted evidence, but we're to stupid not to plant WMD's in Iraq, so we didn't look like idiots.

[stereologist]

Not only that oil prices went way low right mike 47? Hey wait a minute that matches all the rest of the claims that fly in the face of the obvious evidence. Good going!

[mike47]

Colonies? I don't see any Americans moving to Iraq or Afghanistan. We didn't gain any new military bases we already didn't have. The only thing we "won" was a huge ding to our economy that almost bankrupted the airlines, and a clusterfuck military action that have cost billions (Afganistan). We didn't go to Iraq because of 9/11...we invaded that sovereign country because we believed that Saddam had WMD's. I love how CT's think the U.S. government was savvy enough to pull off 9/11 with all kinds of planted evidence, but we're to stupid not to plant WMD's in Iraq, so we didn't look like idiots.

Americans are brainwashed by the media and the Administration and they became robots following orders and no intelligence . I was talking to an 18 year old Chinese and she knows politics better than most Americans on this site . The media and their neo cons did a good job making America brainless when it comes to politics . who else in the world would elect bush twice as president ?!!!!.

[mike47]

Not only that oil prices went way low right mike 47? Hey wait a minute that matches all the rest of the claims that fly in the face of the obvious evidence. Good going!
Look how much profits the oil companies are making.

[MacGyver1968]

Americans are brainwashed by the media and the Administration and they became robots following orders and no intelligence . I was talking to an 18 year old Chinese and she knows politics better than most Americans on this site . The media and their neo cons did a good job making America brainless when it comes to politics . who else in the world would elect bush twice as president ?!!!!.

Actually, my brain is quite dirty..thank you. :) Not everyone is a sheeple. Some people can think for themselves.

Just curious, Mike..where are you from?

[mike47]

You can have a PHD in politics but if you are racist or a bigot.....etc, education means nothing and you keep on distorting the truth .
As a common sense people are able to see reality but for them to hide the truth time and time again is ridiculous .
I have no respect for any nation that has freedom and democracy and then put clowns like Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Joe Lieberman, Kissinger.....in some of the highest offices of the land .

[MacGyver1968]

You can have a PHD in politics but if you are racist or a bigot.....etc, education means nothing and you keep on distorting the truth .


Are you calling me a bigot?

As a common sense people are able to see reality but for them to hide the truth time and time again is ridiculous .
I have no respect for any nation that has freedom and democracy and then put clowns like Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Joe Lieberman, Kissinger.....in some of the highest offices of the land .

What truth are we hiding? Just because we don't believe in conspiracy theories? Because we have examined the evidence and through critical thinking have determined that 9/11 conspiracy theories are laughably implausible?

What does your respect for the US and former US government officials have to do with 9/11? Or are you using this thread as a soapbox to bash the U.S.? What do you believe happened on the morning of 9/11?

[fedr808]

The US and Israel won too much from 9/11 and therefore I believe they are the ones behind it .

mike, you would believe that fairies were real so long as it would harmt he US...

[fedr808]

You can have a PHD in politics but if you are racist or a bigot.....etc, education means nothing and you keep on distorting the truth .


You do that quite regularly dont you mike?

[stereologist]

Look how much profits the oil companies are making.

That does not follow from your argument of invasion for oil. You are quite wrong.

That flailing, incoherent, lashing out everywhere act you do is quite concerning. You need to get a hold of your anger and realize that what angers you is your own misunderstandings.

[stereologist]

Of all the people to insult. I can't believe it was directed at MacGyver.

[MacGyver1968]

Of all the people to insult. I can't believe it was directed at MacGyver.

Well..I can take it...I think my reputation speaks for itself. I'm a firm believer that all pussy is pink on the inside, and we all bleed red. :)

[James R]

Nice. . . your source of evidence, your support is. . . a. . . video game? Boy, you sure showed me, I can no longer reason with you, I can see who is in denial and is grasping at straws.

Not a dumbed-down game. A flight simulator, which mimics the controls and behaviour of real aircraft. I was right. You've never played one, have you?

When I was in elementary school, and my mother took me to the grocery store? I used to look at the magazines while waiting in line to check out. What did I see? National Geographic, U.S. News and World Report, Time, Newsweek, etc. What do I see today? Soap News, U.S. Weekly, The National Enquirer, etc. garbage. "Tin-foil hat stuff," as it were.

You're not looking hard enough. There's plenty of good media out there.

No wonder they thought they could pull this off and get people to believe "terrorists" are attacking our country, and we are fighting them in a war for. . . what? Eight years now?!? And just who the hell is giving them food? Clothing? Medicine? Guns, bullets, munitions, tactical and strategic support for gods sake?! We are the most prosperous country on earth, with the biggest military, they have no allies, and no military budget, and no funding, and no source of arms shipments?!? Yet they fight on for. . . what, eight years?!?

A very brief search of the internet ought to disabuse you of silly notions like the Taliban having no allies, no funding, no sources of arms etc. Don't be dumb.

[Grim_Reaper]

Well..I can take it...I think my reputation speaks for itself. I'm a firm believer that all pussy is pink on the inside, and we all bleed red. :)

Well we all bleed red unless we get cut in a vacuum then it is Blue LOl sorry off topic but had to just had to ...

[John99]

It makes control and ruling so much the easier for those...



for those who come up with these conspiracy theories.

[Trippy]

...And the Zeta Reticuli (http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=97095) are behind it all...

[The Esotericist]

Not a dumbed-down game. A flight simulator, which mimics the controls and behaviour of real aircraft. I was right. You've never played one, have you?
Sorry, your personal experience on a computer game is way less valid an argument than the link I gave to a flight expert. It doesn't fly. :p I don't know the company, or origins, nor the realism of your game. I don't know which plane you were simulating, nor do I know at what speed your approach vector was at. Nor do I know if this game simulated wind sheer. And frankly, I don't care; your talking out your ass, and your quite possibly full of shit. "because it is my experience" and "because I said so, and I'm knowledgeable and an expert" is the most piss poor argument on the planet. I am the only one that has supported any of the points I have made in this entire thread, with knowledgeable experts outside of my own point of view. I could care less if you reject them, it's evidence, there you go. It's better than what your side of the argument has, which is bupkiss. Frankly, in a disagreement, that amounts to a whole lot more in my book than just calling each other names, which is what your side of this discussion has had to resort to. . . telling me I am unintelligent, I know nothing, I don't know my facts, etc. What a lousy way to discuss an issue

To maintain that because something isn't documented, or doesn't have visual proof, and therefor it doesn't exist? THIS is the height of ignorance. So until we make a new discovery, that new thing that is discovered, didn't exist? Give me a break.


You're not looking hard enough. There's plenty of good media out there.

I quite agree with this. My point with this is that the masses DON'T look for anything else, they are inherently lazy and believe what is spoon fed to them. Just like they believe what is on their T.V. Just as the news journalist and the news gathering organizations believe and accept everything the government tells them. . . it's a racket. It was less so before the deregulation of the media. Now, big business is cozy and in bed with the government, and the people only get to know what the government wants them to know. A critical look at what is going on? Rarely. Hard news coverage? Seldom. Accurate reporting? Never. They are now reporting that there is a recovery! Who believes this BS? Do you? The folks in the supermarket probably don't know, they could only tell you who is pregnant, who is with who, what's happening in the soaps, and the latest fad diet.


A very brief search of the internet ought to disabuse you of silly notions like the Taliban having no allies, no funding, no sources of arms etc. Don't be dumb.

Yeah, I know, that's my point. If you are into truth, and you know political science, and know what imperialism is, and what the U.S. and western Europe's strategic aims are, you generally can find out the truth. In order to stay where those forces are. .. . they need an enemy to fight, and that enemy needs weapons, food, etc. yes?

Coalition helicopter drops weapons into Taliban hands, Afghan officials say (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8670)
Obama Gives A Billion To Taliban As The CIA Funds Opium Trade !! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEvTmICm4Gw)
Ex-diplomat: US supplies arms to Taliban (http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=70895&sectionid=351020403)

And from a GAO report!
We found that the U.S. Army and CSTC-A did not maintain complete
records for an estimated 87,000—or about 36 percent—of the 242,000
weapons Defense procured and shipped to Afghanistan for ANSF.
Specifically:
For about 46,000 weapons, the Army could not provide us serial numbers
to uniquely identify each weapon provided, which made it impossible for
us to determine their location or disposition.
• For about 41,000 weapons with serial numbers recorded, CSTC-A did not
have any records of their location or disposition.
5


Furthermore, CSTC-A did not maintain reliable records, including serial
numbers, for any of the 135,000 weapons it reported obtaining from
international donors from June 2002 through June 2008.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09366t.pdf
um. . . yeah, I could go on and on. . . but I doubt you are going to even look into this, you want to believe the official story, it's more comfortable for you. Even though. . . it makes absolutely not one shred of sense. All the world's countries against a rag-tag band of rebels should who have, by comparison, a fraction of the funding and logistical support. . . and yet, this thing drags on as long as Vietnam. whatever. a perfect excuse for a U.S. military base . . . coincidentally, one right where we need one, in the heart of Asia.

[The Esotericist]

Stop being stubborn and listen. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n2Vk9OwcHs)

[MacGyver1968]

Alex Jones? Really?

That's like you asking for a political neutral source...and I post a clip of Rush Limbaugh. AJ is a charlatan that banks off his flock that believes anything he says. Geez..and your the one who brought up the media brainwashing people.

[The Esotericist]

Alex Jones? Really?

That's like you asking for a political neutral source...and I post a clip of Rush Limbaugh. AJ is a charlatan that banks off his flock that believes anything he says. Geez..and your the one who brought up the media brainwashing people.

sigh. . . I'm not concerned about the source, it's the FACTS I'm concerned about. Do you think he is lying about the reputable people's opinions on this matter?

[MacGyver1968]

sigh. . . I'm not concerned about the source, it's the FACTS I'm concerned about. Do you think he is lying about the reputable people's opinions on this matter?

You should be concerned with the source, since they are the ones providing the "facts". If we were having a political debate, and I presented a statement by Rush Limbaugh as factual evidence...wouldn't you have a hard time believing it..since he's so partisan? AJ recently posted the transcript of interview done by celebrity Charlie Sheen with Pres. Obama, questioning him about 9/11. His flock was nearly cumming themselves to see such a high profile star getting to interview a sitting President about 9/11. That's because for the first few hours it was posted, there was no disclaimer on the post, letting everyone know this was just something that CS had written himself, and was actually fiction. They later added the disclaimer, but boooy! you should have seen how pissed many of the members were.

AJ is a publicity hound who says anything to get ratings for his radio show, and for selling t-shirts and dvds. He's in it for the green, not the truth.

[The Esotericist]

not really, I listen to Rush all the time. He is quite intelligent and a level headed man. His only failure is to adequately see both sides of the issue, and to fully understand that conservative or liberal, party politics have long ago been sold out to the globalists.

He's playing checkers in a world game of chess. He is but a pawn. What do you think THESE people think of Rush .. . . or Obama for that matter? They are mere pawns. Comparatively, when all is said and done, they have not much power in the end. The real policies and plans are made when these folks gather. Rush is but a fool, a jester, a child, who really knows nothing about how the world works, and entertains and spins entertaining side shows about matters that, in the end, will be irrelevant in a few years time.

These are the king makers.

BEL Davignon, Etienne Vice Chairman, Suez-Tractebel

DEU Ackermann, Josef Chairman of the Management Board and the Group Executive Committee, Deutsche Bank AG
CAN Adams, John Associate Deputy Minister of National Defence and Chief of the Communications Security Establishment Canada
USA Ajami, Fouad Director, Middle East Studies Program, The Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, The Johns Hopkins University
USA Alexander, Keith B. Director, National Security Agency
INT Almunia, Joaqui'n Commissioner, European Commission
GRC Alogoskoufis, George Minister of Economy and Finance
USA Altman, Roger C. Chairman, Evercore Partners Inc.
TUR Babacan, Ali Minister of Foreign Affairs
NLD Balkenende, Jan Peter Prime Minister
PRT Balsemão, Francisco Pinto Chairman and CEO, IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.; Former Prime Minister
FRA Baverez, Nicolas Partner, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
ITA Bernabé, Franco CEO, Telecom Italia Spa
USA Bernanke, Ben S. Chairman, Board of Governors, Federal Reserve System
SWE Bildt, Carl Minister of Foreign Affairs
FIN Blåfield, Antti Senior Editorial Writer, Helsingin Sanomat
DNK Bosse, Stine CEO, TrygVesta
CAN Brodie, Ian Chief of Staff, Prime Minister's Office
AUT Bronner, Oscar Publisher and Editor, Der Standard
FRA Castries, Henri de Chairman of the Management Board and CEO, AXA
ESP Cebrián, Juan Luis CEO, PRISA
CAN Clark, Edmund President and CEO, TD Bank Financial Group
GBR Clarke, Kenneth Member of Parliament
NOR Clemet, Kristin Managing Director, Civita
USA Collins, Timothy C. Senior Managing Director and CEO, Ripplewood Holdings, LLC
FRA Collomb, Bertrand Honorary Chairman, Lafarge
PRT Costa, António Mayor of Lisbon
USA Crocker, Chester A. James R. Schlesinger Professor of Strategic Studies
USA Daschle, Thomas A. Former US Senator and Senate Majority Leader
CAN Desmarais, Jr., Paul Chairman and co-CEO, Power Corporation of Canada
GRC Diamantopoulou, Anna Member of Parliament
USA Donilon, Thomas E. Partner, O'Melveny & Myers
ITA Draghi, Mario Governor, Banca d'Italia
AUT Ederer, Brigitte CEO, Siemens AG Österreich
CAN Edwards, N. Murray Vice Chairman, Candian Natural Resources Limited
DNK Eldrup, Anders President, DONG A/S
ITA Elkann, John Vice Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
USA Farah, Martha J. Director, Center for Cognitive Neuroscience;
Walter H. Annenberg Professor in the Natural Sciences, University of Pennsylvania
USA Feldstein, Martin S. President and CEO, National Bureau of Economic Research
DEU Fischer, Joschka Former Minister of Foreign Affairs
USA Ford, Jr., Harold E. Vice Chairman, Merill Lynch & Co., Inc.
CHE Forstmoser, Peter Professor for Civil, Corporation and Capital Markets Law, University of Zürich
IRL Gallagher, Paul Attorney General
USA Geithner, Timothy F. President and CEO, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
USA Gigot, Paul Editorial Page Editor, The Wall Street Journal
IRL Gleeson, Dermot Chairman, AIB Group
NLD Goddijn, Harold CEO, TomTom
TUR Gögüs, Zeynep Journalist; Founder, EurActiv.com.tr
USA Graham, Donald E. Chairman and CEO, The Washington Post Company
NLD Halberstadt, Victor Professor of Economics, Leiden University; Former Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings
USA Holbrooke, Richard C. Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC
FIN Honkapohja, Seppo Member of the Board, Bank of Finland
INT Hoop Scheffer, Jaap G. de Secretary General, NATO
USA Hubbard, Allan B. Chairman, E & A Industries, Inc.
BEL Huyghebaert, Jan Chairman of the Board of Directors, KBC Group
DEU Ischinger, Wolfgang Former Ambassador to the UK and US
USA Jacobs, Kenneth Deputy Chairman, Head of Lazard U.S., Lazard Frères & Co. LLC
USA Johnson, James A. Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC
SWE Johnstone, Tom President and CEO, AB SKF
USA Jordan, Jr., Vernon E. Senior Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC
FRA Jouyet, Jean-Pierre Minister of European Affairs
GBR Kerr, John Member, House of Lords; Deputy Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc.
USA Kissinger, Henry A. Chairman, Kissinger Associates, Inc.
DEU Klaeden, Eckart von Foreign Policy Spokesman, CDU/CSU
USA Kleinfeld, Klaus President and COO, Alcoa
TUR Koç, Mustafa Chairman, Koç Holding A.S.
FRA Kodmani, Bassma Director, Arab Reform Initiative
USA Kravis, Henry R. Founding Partner, Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.
USA Kravis, Marie-Josée Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Inc.
INT Kroes, Neelie Commissioner, European Commission
POL Kwasniewski, Aleksander Former President
AUT Leitner, Wolfgang CEO, Andritz AG
ESP León Gross, Bernardino Secretary General, Office of the Prime Minister
INT Mandelson, Peter Commissioner, European Commission
FRA Margerie, Christophe de CEO, Total
CAN Martin, Roger Dean, Joseph L. Rotman School of Management, University of Toronto
HUN Martonyi, János Professor of International Trade Law; Partner, Baker & McKenzie; Former Minister of Foreign Affairs
USA Mathews, Jessica T. President, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
INT McCreevy, Charlie Commissioner, European Commission
USA McDonough, William J. Vice Chairman and Special Advisor to the Chairman, Merrill Lynch & Co., Inc.
CAN McKenna, Frank Deputy Chair, TD Bank Financial Group
GBR McKillop, Tom Chairman, The Royal Bank of Scotland Group
FRA Montbrial, Thierry de President, French Institute for International Relations
ITA Monti, Mario President, Universita Commerciale Luigi Bocconi
USA Mundie, Craig J. Chief Research and Strategy Officer, Microsoft Corporation
NOR Myklebust, Egil Former Chairman of the Board of Directors SAS, Norsk Hydro ASA
DEU Nass, Matthias Deputy Editor, Die Zeit
NLD Netherlands, H.M. the Queen of the
FRA Ockrent, Christine CEO, French television and radio world service
FIN Ollila, Jorma Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc
SWE Olofsson, Maud Minister of Enterprise and Energy; Deputy Prime Minister
NLD Orange, H.R.H. the Prince of
GBR Osborne, George Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer
TUR Öztrak, Faik Member of Parliament
ITA Padoa-Schioppa, Tommaso Former Minister of Finance; President of Notre Europe
GRC Papahelas, Alexis Journalist, Kathimerini
GRC Papalexopoulos, Dimitris CEO, Titan Cement Co. S.A.
USA Paulson, Jr., Henry M. Secretary of the Treasury
USA Pearl, Frank H. Chairman and CEO, Perseus, LLC
USA Perle, Richard N. Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
FRA Pérol, François Deputy General Secretary in charge of Economic Affairs
DEU Perthes, Volker Director, Stiftung Wissenschaft und Politik
BEL Philippe, H.R.H. Prince
CAN Prichard, J. Robert S. President and CEO, Torstar Corporation
CAN Reisman, Heather M. Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc.
USA Rice, Condoleezza Secretary of State
PRT Rio, Rui Mayor of Porto
USA Rockefeller, David Former Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank
ESP Rodriguez Inciarte, Matias Executive Vice Chairman, Grupo Santander
USA Rose, Charlie Producer, Rose Communications
DNK Rose, Flemming Editor, Jyllands Posten
USA Ross, Dennis B. Counselor and Ziegler Distinguished Fellow, The Washington Institute for Near East Policy
USA Rubin, Barnett R. Director of Studies and Senior Fellow, Center for International Cooperation, New York University
TUR Åžahenk, Ferit Chairman, DoÄŸuÅŸ Holding A.Åž.
USA Sanford, Mark Governor of South Carolina
USA Schmidt, Eric Chairman of the Executive Committee and CEO, Google
AUT Scholten, Rudolf Member of the Board of Executive Directors, Oesterreichische Kontrollbank AG
DNK Schur, Fritz H. Fritz Schur Gruppen
CZE Schwarzenberg, Karel Minister of Foreign Affairs
USA Sebelius, Kathleen Governor of Kansas
USA Shultz, George P. Thomas W. and Susan B. Ford Distinguished Fellow, Hoover Institution, Stanford University
ESP Spain, H.M. the Queen of
CHE Spillmann, Markus Editor-in-Chief and Head Managing Board, Neue Zürcher Zeitung AG
USA Summers, Lawrence H. Charles W. Eliot Professor, Harvard University
GBR Taylor, J. Martin Chairman, Syngenta International AG
USA Thiel, Peter A. President, Clarium Capital Management, LLC
NLD Timmermans, Frans Minister of European Affairs
RUS Trenin, Dmitri V. Deputy Director and Senior Associate, Carnegie Moscow Center
INT Trichet, Jean-Claude President, European Central Bank
USA Vakil, Sanam Assistant Professor of Middle East Studies, The Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced International Studies, Johns Hopkins University
FRA Valls, Manuel Member of Parliament
GRC Varvitsiotis, Thomas Co-Founder and President, V + O Communication
CHE Vasella, Daniel L. Chairman and CEO, Novartis AG
FIN Väyrynen, Raimo Director, The Finnish Institute of International Affairs
FRA Védrine, Hubert Hubert Védrine Conseil
NOR Vollebaek, Knut High Commissioner on National Minorities, OSCE
SWE Wallenberg, Jacob Chairman, Investor AB
USA Weber, J. Vin CEO, Clark & Weinstock
USA Wolfensohn, James D. Chairman, Wolfensohn & Company, LLC
USA Wolfowitz, Paul Visiting Scholar, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
INT Zoellick, Robert B. President, The World Bank Group
Rapporteurs
GBR Bredow, Vendeline von Business Correspondent, The Economist
GBR Wooldridge, Adrian D. Foreign Correspondent, The Economist

AUT Austria HUN Hungary
BEL Belgium INT International
CHE Switzerland IRL Ireland
CAN Canada ITA Italy
CZE Czech Republic NOR Norway
DEU Germany NLD Netherlands
DNK Denmark PRT Portugal
ESP Spain POL Poland
FRA France RUS Russia
FIN Finland SWE Sweden
GBR Great Britain TUR Turkey
GRC Greece USA United States of America

[MacGyver1968]

I didn't know the NWO had a role call. :)

So what meds do you take?

[The Esotericist]

You should be concerned with the source, since they are the ones providing the "facts". If we were having a political debate, and I presented a statement by Rush Limbaugh as factual evidence...wouldn't you have a hard time believing it..since he's so partisan? AJ recently posted the transcript of interview done by celebrity Charlie Sheen with Pres. Obama, questioning him about 9/11. His flock was nearly cumming themselves to see such a high profile star getting to interview a sitting President about 9/11. That's because for the first few hours it was posted, there was no disclaimer on the post, letting everyone know this was just something that CS had written himself, and was actually fiction. They later added the disclaimer, but boooy! you should have seen how pissed many of the members were.

AJ is a publicity hound who says anything to get ratings for his radio show, and for selling t-shirts and dvds. He's in it for the green, not the truth.

lol. nope, not concerned, if I am suspect, I can check it out. I remember the incident you you are referring to. No intentional attempt was made to decieve, it was an oversight. If you are familiar at all with AJ, you are aware, he runs two sites, yes? INFOWARS, and PRISONPLANET. When he originally released it, it was with a video interview, and in the video, Mr. Sheen makes quite clear it is a fictional account, and why he wrote it. Also, there is the disclaimer. When it was posted at the other site? That is when they neglected to post the disclaimer with the written copy. However, had anyone bothered to watch the video, they would know the story behind it. Admittedly, folks at work who are slacking off can't watch video's now, can they? And if they were at the second site they posted it on? And were idiotic enough not to look for confirmation of the story in the MS media of a story that big? eh. . . their fault. AJ doesn't lie sir.

And for that matter? Rush Limbaugh is an honest man too. Both of them have huge radio shows. . . your word and your reputation, your accuracy, and your facts are what you live and die by. . . any journalist worth his salt knows that. Just ask Dan Rather good sir. Nope, I trust them both. The worst either will, or can be accused of, is perhaps putting enough spin on something to make you dizzy. lol Remember, there are two (or more) sides to every story, and always a multiplicity of ways to interpret data and statistics.

[The Esotericist]

I didn't know the NWO had a role call. :)

So what meds do you take?


Your disrespect and willful lack of education and knowledge are exceeded only by your immaturity. I accept your warped and twisted acknowledgment of defeat.

We shall consider your education at an end.:D

Peace and Light to you Mr. MacGyver.

[fedr808]

Your disrespect and willful lack of education and knowledge are exceeded only by your immaturity. I accept your warped and twisted acknowledgment of defeat.

We shall consider your education at an end.:D

Peace and Light to you Mr. MacGyver.

Eso, i see you are trying desperately to end this arguement asap because we both know your getting your ass thrashed and your trying to quit while your behind and make it look like a victory, too bad, we have you tied to the post, by the time were done, Id be surprised if you so much as came to this site.

[MacGyver1968]

True..I am immature and crack jokes whenever I can...and no I never acknowledged defeat. I don't want your education..your a nut job. I'm just having fun showing everyone what a nutjob you are.

You go on and on about the media brainwashing people, then say stuff like:

your word and your reputation, your accuracy, and your facts are what you live and die by. . . any journalist worth his salt knows that. Just ask Dan Rather good sir. Nope, I trust them both.

...don't you see the irony in that? Your all over the place. You don't know what you believe.

[The Esotericist]

Not trying, it's over. Until you post some, oh, I don't know, evidence, sources, something substantial? You guys are just wind bags.

I post sources for my posts. My stuff is backed up, yours isn't. Sorry to break it to you. It is far easier to light a darkened room with a single candle, than it is to try to shut out all the light from a brightly lit room.

yeah, the truth works like that. It's why I can present sources for my arguments, and you can't. You have lies, I have truth. :deal:

[The Esotericist]

...don't you see the irony in that? Your all over the place. You don't know what you believe.

ahhhh, how right you are my friend. what I believe changes daily. my mind is perpetually open to new idea, new thoughts, it is fluid like a river, a water fall.

Anything is possible, ANYTHING. Unfortunately, you don't understand that, it is why, it is so easy to lie to you. :bawl:

The only thing I am interested in is TRUTH. And what I am sure of? The 9/11 commission report is good for one thing. . . wiping my ***. It's travesty of justice, that is all it is. It is a disgusting book of revolting lies.

If you believe many of the items in it already proven false, even by NIST, than I do indeed feel sorry for you.

[stereologist]

Your disrespect and willful lack of education and knowledge are exceeded only by your immaturity. I accept your warped and twisted acknowledgment of defeat. :crazy:

It's time for this child to start his education. As MacGyver so elegantly point out you have to begin with the source. Doesn't Rush say that all the time?

So if you listened to Rush you'd know the tactic is to look at the message, then accept or reject, and if rejecting point to the source and say "I told you so".

Oh, wait a minute that is what you are doing!

The terrorists were all capable of hitting the buildings. Just because one lunatic that thinks aliens are making the rings of Saturn is no reason to believe that the terrorists could not have hit the buldings. If it were such a widely held belief then there should be hundreds of pilots agreeing. Alas, no because this fruit cake stands alone.

telling me I am unintelligent, I know nothing, I don't know my facts, etc. What a lousy way to discuss an issue
Silly you it was your idiotic posts that told us this. You have no idea how images are projected, or what holograms are. You make stuff up as you go along. Your posting of PCTs continues to tell people quite a bit of your thinking.

In order to stay where those forces are. .. . they need an enemy to fight, and that enemy needs weapons, food, etc. yes?
That is nonsensical. Expansion and continued dominance is simpler without an enemy.

BTW, have you ever considered learning how to spell. It might make your statements clearer.

[MacGyver1968]

Not trying, it's over. Until you post some, oh, I don't know, evidence, sources, something substantial? You guys are just wind bags.

I post sources for my posts. My stuff is backed up, yours isn't. Sorry to break it to you. It is far easier to light a darkened room with a single candle, than it is to try to shut out all the light from a brightly lit room.

yeah, the truth works like that. It's why I can present sources for my arguments, and you can't. You have lies, I have truth. :deal:

You've got 2 things...Jack and Squat. I'll be happy to present any evidence about 9/11 you would like. I generally debate 9/11 from a "common sense" point of view, which doesn't take a lot of links, but if you want hard evidence, just let me know..

[The Esotericist]

I'll continue to come to this thread to see if any posts have links to evidence, if they don't? I'm not bothering to read anything. As such, I scanned, and didn't read anything after my last post . . .

[MacGyver1968]

What evidence would you like to see? Don't puss out. Just name your poison.

[Trippy]

not really, I listen to Rush all the time. He is quite intelligent and a level headed man. His only failure is to adequately see both sides of the issue, and to fully understand that conservative or liberal, party politics have long ago been sold out to the globalists.

He's playing checkers in a world game of chess. He is but a pawn. What do you think THESE people think of Rush .. . . or Obama for that matter? They are mere pawns. Comparatively, when all is said and done, they have not much power in the end. The real policies and plans are made when these folks gather. Rush is but a fool, a jester, a child, who really knows nothing about how the world works, and entertains and spins entertaining side shows about matters that, in the end, will be irrelevant in a few years time.

These are the king makers.

And not one name from the Asia-Pacific region.

[shaman_]

AJ doesn't lie sir.
I don't know anything about Alex Jones so I had a quick listen to that video. I didn't make it to the end.

He talks of videos of police and firemen admitting that the building is about to be blown up. If he is not a liar perhaps you can show me this video.

He also mentions a countdown going over the radio at the time. Some evidence of this?

NASA thermal imaging of temperatures of 3000 degrees? Right.

This guy is a liar, poorly informed and probably an idiot.

[stereologist]

AJ used to have a photo of firemen looking into a hole in the debris and he claimed that they were looking at a pool of molten metal. At least he had the courtesy of pulling that lie off his website and out of his presentation. But he still points to aluminum cladding coming off the building in the collapse and calls it steel amongst a thousand other lies.

[fedr808]

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/eagar-0112.html

It had some interesting points.

It states that the collapse was not due to melted steel.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/fig3.gifHere is a cutaway of the WTC.

You see there are two things that happened.

One is that steel loses half of its structural support capability around 500-650 degrees celsius, the fire burned at around 1000 degrees celsius.

But of course such a contingency was planned for, so even if they lost that much they could barely keep the building standing so long as nothing else went wrong, unfortunately there was another thing.

This idea was designed with the plan that the fire would be evenly spread like an office fire, because at that temperature the steel actrually began to expand significantly, but if it had been a diffused (evenly spread) fire, all of the columns would have expanded as one; so other than growing a few inches there would be no problem. but it wasnt an even fire, the airplane hit from one side, so that side facing the plane was significantly hotter than the other so what happened is several sets of steel expanded but the others didnt.

Kind of like the effect of ice cracking in the winter, as the ice freezes in a crack it expands, so the crack gets larger.

Now on its own, this may have been a large problem, but the other pillars could support it. Unfortunately, the other steel bars had already lost 1/2 of their structural capacity, this meant that the building was ready to fall, but it did not fall because of the above two reasons.

The bars meant to hold up the actual floors were much thinner and weaker than the vertical bars, long story short, when these collapsed, tens of thousands of tons fell ontop of these pillars that were at 1/2 their capacity and suffering from extreme heat distortion, and than they quite simply, snapped.

[MacGyver1968]

The bars meant to hold up the actual floors were much thinner and weaker than the vertical bars, long story short, when these collapsed, tens of thousands of tons fell ontop of these pillars that were at 1/2 their capacity and suffering from extreme heat distortion, and than they quite simply, snapped.

They're called floor trusses...and here's an image of them.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i41/macgyver1968a/wtcExtColumnsLarge.jpg

You can see how delicate of a structure they are made of. When they heated up, they sagged in the middle, pulling on their connection with the perimeter columns. When enough of the connections failed, the perimeter columns lost lateral support, buckled and failed. Gravity took over from there.

[fedr808]

Combine that with the fact that the steel was at 1/2 its load capacity and that 1/3 of the structure was expanding from heat faster than other parts straining the structure, and you have a total failure of structural integrity.

Hell, it's a miracle the tower stood for 2 hours.

[The Esotericist]

And not one name from the Asia-Pacific region.
Astute observation. They tend to be inherently racist. But then, this IS generally common knowledge. A great majority are monarchy, yes? Or so I have come to understand. Who knows?

Currently the ancient Chinese secret societies of the east, and the ancient ninja families of Japan are now locked in a life and death struggle against them. Apparently the Chinese Communists are Neutral, b/c they like the ruling position, money and power, and nobody wants it to erupt into a full out war. According to Benjamin Fulford:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fulford
He has given a number of interviews to conspiracy theorists, and therein claimed amongst others that:

* AIDS and SARS are bio-engineered weapons designed to reduce the African ("Black") and Asian populations. AIDS was created to reduce the African population, and SARS was meant to reduce the Asian populations of the world.
* A Chinese secret society with a membership of 6 million (intellectuals like professors in various fields, scientists, politicians, etc.), this includes 1.8 million gangsters, and 100,000 professional assassins has issued an ultimatum to the Illuminati, warning them that if they persist with their plan to depopulate the earth, they will be killed. The society has created an alliance joining China, Russia, India, South America, ASEAN, the free Muslim nations and Africa that is united in stopping the Illuminati. [7]
* The 9/11 terrorist attacks were an "inside job" carried out by the US government as a false flag attack to bring about new imperial mobilization.
* The Pentagon, the oil industry, banking elite, and the pharmaceutical industry suppress inventions including free-energy and anti-gravity technology to maintain power.
* In 2009 Fulford has stated that the US, using a secret military program known as HAARP (High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program) have been able to alter the climate, and using high power microwave energy induce earthquakes including the Asian Tsunami and earthquakes in Japan and China.



I applaud you for taking the time to carefully read the list, it is an interesting read. And, if you have money and care about your future, you can learn some interesting things. A couple things of note stand out. First off, that governor of South Caroline really screwed up his life by having an affair with the Argentinian woman. He was probably had shot for president the next time there was an opening. Notable attendees have included the Clinton's and Mr. Obama.

I looked through the list much too fast, but somewhere on there is another governor. . . that would be my bet for the next President now that the governor of South Carolina is out of the running. But, there is always next years meeting.

Likewise, there is a reasonably new fund that was set up in 1996, called the "Persius LLC" I had no idea what this was, but it has three members attending. . . . If you have some spare cash for investing, it's probably a good bet this fund will do extremely well in the coming months.

Likewise, I've always known that Novartis (a biotech company) is always a safe bet. They are the maker of the Swine flu vaccine. The head of their company was in attendance too. Probably not a bad idea to move some cash that way too. :rolleyes:

[The Esotericist]

Wow, wonderful explanations guys, it all makes sense now. Um. . . what happened to the Tower ABOVE where the airplanes Impacted?

[Trippy]

Astute observation. They tend to be inherently racist. But then, this IS generally common knowledge. A great majority are monarchy, yes? Or so I have come to understand. Who knows?

Currently the ancient Chinese secret societies of the east, and the ancient ninja families of Japan are now locked in a life and death struggle against them. Apparently the Chinese Communists are Neutral, b/c they like the ruling position, money and power, and nobody wants it to erupt into a full out war. According to Benjamin Fulford:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Fulford


I applaud you for taking the time to carefully read the list, it is an interesting read. And, if you have money and care about your future, you can learn some interesting things. A couple things of note stand out. First off, that governor of South Caroline really screwed up his life by having an affair with the Argentinian woman. He was probably had shot for president the next time there was an opening. Notable attendees have included the Clinton's and Mr. Obama.

I looked through the list much too fast, but somewhere on there is another governor. . . that would be my bet for the next President now that the governor of South Carolina is out of the running. But, there is always next years meeting.

Likewise, there is a reasonably new fund that was set up in 1996, called the "Persius LLC" I had no idea what this was, but it has three members attending. . . . If you have some spare cash for investing, it's probably a good bet this fund will do extremely well in the coming months.

Likewise, I've always known that Novartis (a biotech company) is always a safe bet. They are the maker of the Swine flu vaccine. The head of their company was in attendance too. Probably not a bad idea to move some cash that way too. :rolleyes:

Right...

So what you're telling me is that even though I live in an area ostensibly controled by the 'anti illuminati' somehow i'm still being brainwashed by the illuminati?

[Trippy]

Wow, wonderful explanations guys, it all makes sense now. Um. . . what happened to the Tower ABOVE where the airplanes Impacted?

Hot air rises.

One of the biggest contributing factors to the (vertical) spread of the 1975 fires was the roof space, and the HVAC - although the HVAC was designed to shut down in case of fire to prevent it's spread, and it did indeed shut down, the fire was still able to spread through the exhaust air system.

[fedr808]

Wow, wonderful explanations guys, it all makes sense now. Um. . . what happened to the Tower ABOVE where the airplanes Impacted?

nothing their still standing their today, just hovering there, 90 stories in the air.

Rhetorical question= sarcastic answer.

Serious answer= they fell.

[The Esotericist]

Trippy good sir? NO ONE brain washes you, you are ostensibly allowed to think what ever you wish. However, me thinks you just choose to keep lock step with your family, friends, co-workers, and those in your life.

Those we socialize with have a powerful influence on our beliefs. Likewise, I think our personalities are predisposed to either conformity, taking the path of least resistance, or, when things don't absolutely make sense, seeking answers, non-conformity, the consequences be damned.

You seem to be intelligent. I really do have a very hard time believing that there are things about this issue that haven't raised doubts in your mind. That you haven't seen the inconsistencies, that all the evidence that has been presented to you, visual, statistical, video, photographic, etc. is mind boggling. Yet, two things, TWO solid facts remain that you, and others of your ilk will NOT be persuaded from. ONE, the official government story says it is one way. And TWO, the press, the legal establishment, "the money men" and hence the masses, accept what is the official staged conspiracy. So, there really is no hope. You are one of those that will not feel comfortable ever walking your own path or dancing to your own tune. Rather, it is that magnitude of that unbelievability that confounds you and thus prevents you from asking questions and digging a little deeper. As such, that is your right.

Either that, or you and your ilk are shills. Who am I to say? lol

[Repo Man]

Also, how much was the structure weakened by the impact of a jet airliner into the side of the building? I've never had any reason to question what I saw on television on that day, or since then, so I've never gone beyond skimming the sites debunking the conspiracy nuts. But those large aircraft had to have caused a substantial amount of damage all by themsleves.

[Trippy]

Trippy good sir? NO ONE brain washes you, you are ostensibly allowed to think what ever you wish. However, me thinks you just choose to keep lock step with your family, friends, co-workers, and those in your life.

Those we socialize with have a powerful influence on our beliefs. Likewise, I think our personalities are predisposed to either conformity, taking the path of least resistance, or, when things don't absolutely make sense, seeking answers, non-conformity, the consequences be damned.

You seem to be intelligent. I really do have a very hard time believing that there are things about this issue that haven't raised doubts in your mind. That you haven't seen the inconsistencies, that all the evidence that has been presented to you, visual, statistical, video, photographic, etc. is mind boggling. Yet, two things, TWO solid facts remain that you, and others of your ilk will NOT be persuaded from. ONE, the official government story says it is one way. And TWO, the press, the legal establishment, "the money men" and hence the masses, accept what is the official staged conspiracy. So, there really is no hope. You are one of those that will not feel comfortable ever walking your own path or dancing to your own tune. Rather, it is that magnitude of that unbelievability that confounds you and thus prevents you from asking questions and digging a little deeper. As such, that is your right.

Either that, or you and your ilk are shills. Who am I to say? lol

:Yawn:
The United States has been bullying the country I live in for nearly 23 years over certain stances that our government has taken in foreign policies.
We've had European security agencies conduct acts of terrorism in our national waters.

What makes you think that I feel I owe any loyalty to the 'official story' in any sense other than evidenciary?

[The Esotericist]

nothing their still standing their today, just hovering there, 90 stories in the air.

Rhetorical question= sarcastic answer.

Serious answer= they fell.


no no no, I mean, how come they disintegrated like the rest of the tower, you know, collapsed. There was no fire there, nothing to "collapse down from above." The top should have remained in crumbled ruins on top of the pile, yet, it was dust.

For that matter, this explanation should have left the core columns as well, yet. . . mysteriously, they were reduced to molten iron. Funny that.

And. . . . funny, this doesn't really explain why WTC 7 was pulverized to dust either? Hmmmm. . . strange that, eerie. Puuuhhhleaze. We have already been through yours, NIST's and the government's crazy bazaar conspiracy theory/fairy tale a zillion times. Engineers, Architects, hell, even NIST originally said it wasn't possibly, so don't feed me a line of crap, mmmkay? Can't happen, won't happen, and didn't happen that way.

They couldn't recreate it, you know? I'm not having this discussion again. Scott had that thread, it was decided, The NIST report is a phoney piece of Pseudo Science, they found the evidence at the scene, end of story. If you choose to stick your head in the sand and not to accept it? Not my problem.

[The Esotericist]

:Yawn:
The United States has been bullying the country I live in for nearly 23 years over certain stances that our government has taken in foreign policies.

What makes you think that I feel I owe any loyalty to the 'official story' in any sense other than evidenciary?

Oh? What country?

[Trippy]

Oh? What country?

Why would I divulge that much personal information to you (see the bit about terrorism)?

[Trippy]

Why would I divulge that much personal information to you (see the bit about terrorism)?

One more crumb - we've also arrested and expelled MOSSAD agents from our soil for conducting illegal operations.

[The Esotericist]

Also, how much was the structure weakened by the impact of a jet airliner into the side of the building? I've never had any reason to question what I saw on television on that day, or since then, so I've never gone beyond skimming the sites debunking the conspiracy nuts. But those large aircraft had to have caused a substantial amount of damage all by themsleves.


Actually, the architect that designed the buildings designed them them to withstand several direct impacts. So, in the final analysis, this statement couldn't be more false. The structure wasn't weakened hardly at all. Once the structure was punctured, the load was immediately redistributed. It was a revolutionary and brilliant design.

[The Esotericist]

Why would I divulge that much personal information to you (see the bit about terrorism)?
Why would you? Because it doesn't seem all that personal. . . even the smallest country seems, well, awfully large. And, I was just trying make friendly discussion. I apologize for offending.

Um. . no, what bit?

[The Esotericist]

One more crumb - we've also arrested and expelled MOSSAD agents from our soil for conducting illegal operations.

Good for you! Lousy filth.

[Repo Man]

Actually, the architect that designed the buildings designed them them to withstand several direct impacts. So, in the final analysis, this statement couldn't be more false. The structure wasn't weakened hardly at all. Once the structure was punctured, the load was immediately redistributed. It was a revolutionary and brilliant design.

No one has maintained that the impact alone was enough to bring the towers down. I was merely pointing out that a Boeing 767, impacting such a building at speed, would itself do substantial damage (and they did). The towers were designed to withstand the impact of a Boeing 707, which is significantly smaller.

LESLIE ROBERTSON: We had designed the project for the impact of the largest airplane of its time, the Boeing 707, that is, to take this jet airplane, run it into the building, destroy a lot of structure and still have it stand up.....

NARRATOR: The 767 that flew into the North Tower was larger than a 707 and moving fast. It struck the building between the 93rd and 98th floors, instantly killing scores of people in the plane and tower.

It also created a huge void across six floors on the impact wall. You can see the outline of the wing tip on the upper right. Two-thirds of the supporting columns were completely severed, but the building stood firm.

GENE CORLEY: What happened was that the loads that were being carried by those columns arched across the opening so that the columns adjacent to the hole now started picking up the loads that had been carried by those where the airplane went in.

NARRATOR: Leslie Robertson's radical design seemed to have worked, but there was more devastating damage hidden inside. Although the aluminum aircraft shattered on contact with the exterior wall, the speed and force of the fragments and the intact steel engines severely damaged the columns and stairwells in the core, and jet fuel began saturating the building.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2907_wtc.html

[fedr808]

Actually, the architect that designed the buildings designed them them to withstand several direct impacts. So, in the final analysis, this statement couldn't be more false. The structure wasn't weakened hardly at all. Once the structure was punctured, the load was immediately redistributed. It was a revolutionary and brilliant design.

Link it.

[The Esotericist]

Just as most Americans have never heard of WTC 7, they haven't the faintest clue about the USS Liberty incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)

Wow, I hadn't researched the latest on Mossad and 9/11 for a couple years! The latest news is stunning! I suggest you check it out. How about some photos of people hired, actually LIVING INSIDE THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, with full access. . . hmmmm . . . wonder what they were doing in there before it blew up?
14 Suspects linked to Mossad in World Trade Center Before 9/11 Doing Construction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uibzvVNe0N0)
Mossad Truck Bombs on Sept 11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aKj6uJ5Mt4)

Hey, thanks for motivating me to do yet more research and learning. If we don't constantly update our learning, research, and independent viewing, how do we get the news out, right? Depend on the Jewish controlled media? :p

[mike47]

One more crumb - we've also arrested and expelled MOSSAD agents from our soil for conducting illegal operations.

That is correct .
When MOSSAD are involved one can conclude destruction as a result .
Their history speaks for itself .

[Trippy]

Why would you? Because it doesn't seem all that personal. . . even the smallest country seems, well, awfully large. And, I was just trying make friendly discussion. I apologize for offending.

Um. . no, what bit?

The bit about the DGSE performing terrorist operations in our sovereign waters.

I also feel compelled to point out that Al Jazeera is free to air in this country (although we're not a muslim state).

[Trippy]

That is correct .
When MOSSAD are involved one can conclude destruction as a result .
Their history speaks for itself .

What?

No offense man, but do you even know what i'm talking about?

[The Esotericist]

Link it.
World Trade Center Tower Structural Design Explained.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jdSW-69qyk)

Likewise, in this video, you can see why the official story pancake theory is absolute nonsense, because it fails to account for the core columns. What about those? What takes those down in the "pancake theory" That is TONS of strong steel we're talking about. That's the load bearing support steel. Some of those columns should have been souring into the the sky after the collapse. . . THEY WEREN'T!!!

[Trippy]

World Trade Center Tower Structural Design Explained.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jdSW-69qyk)

Likewise, in this video, you can see why the official story pancake theory is absolute nonsense, because it fails to account for the core columns. What about those? What takes those down in the "pancake theory" That is TONS of strong steel we're talking about. That's the load bearing support steel. Some of those columns should have been souring into the the sky after the collapse. . . THEY WEREN'T!!!

Really?
http://www.worldofheaven.com/messages_img/a5b48953e90e12e8e06e43feed723e1e/46_wtc1spiretodustjg4_en_0.jpg

Are you sure of that?
http://www.nulife.de/elfterseptember/imgs/Collapse_of_the_spire.jpg

Because the information i've seen suggests otherwise
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/why/whypics/48_spire.jpg

[fedr808]

The wtc hit the ground at 200 km/h, of course they were disintigrated.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/eagar-0112.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center
http://www.civil.northwestern.edu/people/bazant/PDFs/Papers/405.pdf

And as a matter of fact, there was no molten iron, the only way there would have been molten iron is if there had been a sever explosion, since there is no molten iron, there was no thermite or tnt.

Which means that the columns buckled because of fire and 90000 litres of jet fuel.
Which means that the only way you could get that much jet fuel up there is with a real jet. Which means the jet was NOT a hologram, and that an actual jet actually hit the world trade center causing it to fall.

Do not go off topic eso.

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml
http://web.mse.uiuc.edu/courses/mse280/Notes/01/wtc/Mackin_WTC_collapse.pdf

All you need is for 2 floors to fail and the building falls.

http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_briefing_april0505.htm

NIST is more qualified than leer in matters of structural integrity and they are more qualified than you to know what the hell actually happened, and are infinitely mroe qualified than some crackpot pilot that believes aliens are strip mining saturn's rings

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=2
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=3
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=4
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=5
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=6
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html?page=7

[fedr808]

That is correct .
When MOSSAD are involved one can conclude destruction as a result .
Their history speaks for itself .

stfu mike nobody asked for your opinion.

Jesus, your like a robot, if you hear the word Israel, Jew, Mossad, you say "its there fault" and than run away like a coward when everyone says your full of it.

[fedr808]

World Trade Center Tower Structural Design Explained.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jdSW-69qyk)

Likewise, in this video, you can see why the official story pancake theory is absolute nonsense, because it fails to account for the core columns. What about those? What takes those down in the "pancake theory" That is TONS of strong steel we're talking about. That's the load bearing support steel. Some of those columns should have been souring into the the sky after the collapse. . . THEY WEREN'T!!!

Eso, the core columns were the ones that collapsed, and if you listened instead of being infatuated with your self you would have noticed that.

Since when does steel fly?


Why exactly would they be flying?

They failed because one side of the center support beams was warping because of the high heat, and already suffering from around loss of 70% of structural capacity.

[fedr808]

Wow, those engineers were retards than. and Im not saying you are Eso.

They designed a building that could take 3,000 tons of force from a 747 and stay standing. So they go around touting this around.

Of course none of them thinks of the fact that they carry 90,000+ litres of jet fuel that burns at 15000 degrees farenheit.

Geez, well your right that building could be hit by any aircraft and stay standing, assuming of course theres no fuel in the aircraft which there was....90000 litres of it....

[CheskiChips]

Just as most Americans have never heard of WTC 7, they haven't the faintest clue about the USS Liberty incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)

Wow, I hadn't researched the latest on Mossad and 9/11 for a couple years! The latest news is stunning! I suggest you check it out. How about some photos of people hired, actually LIVING INSIDE THE WORLD TRADE CENTER, with full access. . . hmmmm . . . wonder what they were doing in there before it blew up?
14 Suspects linked to Mossad in World Trade Center Before 9/11 Doing Construction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uibzvVNe0N0)
Mossad Truck Bombs on Sept 11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aKj6uJ5Mt4)

Hey, thanks for motivating me to do yet more research and learning. If we don't constantly update our learning, research, and independent viewing, how do we get the news out, right? Depend on the Jewish controlled media? :p

Then maybe you love Fox? It's never been ran by a Jew.

Esotericist, you will die sad and alone.

[shaman_]

Of course none of them thinks of the fact that they carry 90,000+ litres of jet fuel that burns at 15000 degrees farenheit.I don't know if this is a good enough excuse but from repo man's link -

"NARRATOR: In an instant, the fuel ignited a massive fire that quickly engulfed the damaged area, and this was something even Robertson had not considered.

LESLIE ROBERTSON: With the 707, to the best of my knowledge, the fuel load was not considered in the design. Indeed, I don't know how it could have been considered.

CHARLES THORNTON: They didn't have the mathematical models in the computers to model a fire as a result of the fuel in a 707. I was asked in 1986 what would happen if a plane flew into the Trade Center. And I said it would not knock the building down from the pure physics of the mass hitting the building. But we...none of us really focused on that kind of a fuel fire.
"

If fireproofing hadn't been dislodged by the impact the structure would have lasted longer.

[The Esotericist]

Core Of Corruption: In The Shadows (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4874421830690006054#)

[Repo Man]

As for the above video: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." - Robert J. Hanlon

[The Esotericist]

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
~John Adams

Facts don't cease to exist because they are ignored.
~Aldous Huxley

It is easier to believe a lie that one has heard a thousand times than to believe a fact that no one has heard before.
~Anonymous

I find it queer that you should categorize facts as either "malicious" or "stupid," for facts have neither of these attributes. These are value judgments. Facts merely are, they only exist. What you choose to do with them. . . well now, that's up to you.

[Trippy]

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.
~John Adams

Facts don't cease to exist because they are ignored.
~Aldous Huxley

It is easier to believe a lie that one has heard a thousand times than to believe a fact that no one has heard before.
~Anonymous

I find it queer that you should categorize facts as either "malicious" or "stupid," for facts have neither of these attributes. These are value judgments. Facts merely are, they only exist. What you choose to do with them. . . well now, that's up to you.

I find it intriuging that you would make claims that are trivially proven wrong and avoid redressing them when they are demonstrated as such.

[shaman_]

It seems to be a common trait among 9/11 conspiracy theorists.

[MacGyver1968]

I find it intriuging that you would make claims that are trivially proven wrong and avoid redressing them when they are demonstrated as such.

You have to do that in order to be a "no planer".

[Grim_Reaper]

Not trying, it's over. Until you post some, oh, I don't know, evidence, sources, something substantial? You guys are just wind bags.

I post sources for my posts. My stuff is backed up, yours isn't. Sorry to break it to you. It is far easier to light a darkened room with a single candle, than it is to try to shut out all the light from a brightly lit room.

yeah, the truth works like that. It's why I can present sources for my arguments, and you can't. You have lies, I have truth. :deal:

I dont know if the room you are in is like swiss cheese say like your Proof is. Then that candle may be blown out by the wind.

[Grim_Reaper]

Wow, those engineers were retards than. and Im not saying you are Eso.

They designed a building that could take 3,000 tons of force from a 747 and stay standing. So they go around touting this around.

Of course none of them thinks of the fact that they carry 90,000+ litres of jet fuel that burns at 15000 degrees farenheit.

Geez, well your right that building could be hit by any aircraft and stay standing, assuming of course theres no fuel in the aircraft which there was....90000 litres of it....

Dude they NEVER ceritified that Building for a 747 try a 707 which was the biggest plane in the air at the time of conception of this building. And the ONLY reason they did this was during WW2 a low flying Bomber got lost in the fog and hit the Emprie State building and this was a concern for the WTC at the time as it was very Tall. And at the time the Nav systems on the planes at that time where less then reliable compared to todays.

[leopold99]

oh man, WTC rears its head yet again.

i've yet to see a reputable person from the pile saying evidence of explosives were found.
i'm talking actual explosive residues, not effects or "it seems".
yeah, yeah, yeah, alex jones analyzed some chips submitted by persons of unknown character collected from the fallout, big deal.

[Stryder]

If you start pulling the "Explosives were used at WTC" line of argument again, then this thread will follow suit with all the others and be locked. Peddle that nonsense somewhere else.

[fedr808]

If you start pulling the "Explosives were used at WTC" line of argument again, then this thread will follow suit with all the others and be locked. Peddle that nonsense somewhere else.

Yah seriously.

I made this thread to make a point that there could not have been explosives because if the explosives were on X floor, there would be no way for the pilot to count X floors from the base of the building and aim the plane there in time.