The Rules of the Universe

[sridharanr]

In my first blog, I drew the attention of the scientific community to find a solution to the vexing problems of cosmic origin, raised questions concerning the reason for our existence, the mysterious mechanisms that keep us alive and finally, why it is all so hard to know the truth about our role here and does God really play the dice with us?
(See Modern Cosmology at
sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=85633&highlight=Modern+Cosmology scienceblog.com/cms/blog/6797-modern-cosmology-17241.html
rsridharan.blogspot.com) -
once we know how to unlock the cosmic order, most of our daunting problems are solved.
see more at
scienceblog.com/cms/blog/6797-the-rules-universe-17722.html

[kaneda]

We are at best an accident. Only ego says otherwise.

No one knows our origin. WE created over 2,850 gods (including any you can name).

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

We are at best an accident. Only ego says otherwise.

No one knows our origin. WE created over 2,850 gods (including any you can name).

Your 1st sentence contradicts your 3rd.
1111

[Ophiolite]

Your second sentence agrees with your fourth.
15

[kaneda]

Your 1st sentence contradicts your 3rd.
1111

If you have nothing to say, best to keep quiet.

My first sentence is a possibility. My third sentence says no one really knows.
Where is the contradiction?

Heinlein's book was crap.

[Ophiolite]

When did Heinlein enter the discussion? Am I missing some secret code?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

He's typing to himself.
1111

[djvisionconcepts]

Why do people assume that the human race was placed on this earth for some purpose? When you look around at other people you’re seeing millions of years of evolution. It’s very difficult for some people to understand how the whole process functions and it is much easier to simply say that a "higher power" is to blame. I don't want to come across as someone who wants to put an end to religion. Furthermore, if my two unborn children chose to pursue a religion and spend their life’s following it, so be it. I think it’s important that people have some goal, something to believe in, and something they feel will help them through the hard times in life. But, on the other hand, if you really look at it, you are not some much different than a dog, cat, or even some dinosaur. You both have eyes that work the same way, a skeletal system that is moved by the same muscles, blood that flows through veins and is pumped by a heart, etc.... (If the human race we placed here by some magical power, we would be vastly different from other creatures on this planet. Like, instead of seeing our heart pumping by use of an MRI, we would see some magical glowing light in our torso that somehow gives us life.) The only thing that really separates us from other life forms is intelligents and with intelligents comes questions. Without the knowledge of science, mathematics, and physics we had to ask ourselves "where did we come from?", "why are we here?", and "we must be placed here for a reason, right?" The answers to these questions are very difficult to answer, but are slowly being revealed. I myself don't believe in a "higher power,” With the exception of some physical science related phenomenon that is far too difficult to answer with present day physics. Like I said before, I think it’s great and vital that people believe in something. But for me, I choose to live life to the fullest, work hard at bettering myself, be cool to people, and believe only in myself. After all, we are only here for a short time, and 32 years has gone by way too quickly....

[goose]

Im going to have to agree with djvisionconcepts. I dont think that there is any supreme purpose for humans. The only main purpose of our lives is to continue in existance, as with any species, the only difference is we have intelligent brains, which make us question why things work the way they do. That the only difference, we question our surroundings instead of accepting them for what they are, and for things that we cant explain, we like to believe that a higher being made it... but i dont believe that, i believe everything that has ever happened has a purpose and a reason for why it happened, and just because we dont know it doesnt mean it isnt true. Lack of evidence isnt disproof...

or proof for that matter either, but we all have our opinions, and we live off of them and make the best of our lives that way.

[OilIsMastery]

We are at best an accident.
An accident? That would require a miracle.

Only ego says otherwise.
Only ego says anything.

No one knows our origin.
I concur.

WE created over 2,850 gods (including any you can name).
The First Cause/Prime Mover.

[kaneda]

Robert Heinlein wrote: Stranger in a strange land. His short books are OK but his longer ones are rubbish.

[kaneda]

OilIsMastery. How does an accident need a miracle? If fungus grows in my drain pipe, is that a miracle?

Ego as in no proof or even evidence. Just personal belief.

We've been around for several million years in roughly our present form. Those gods are less than several thousand years old.

[OilIsMastery]

OilIsMastery. How does an accident need a miracle?
Because according to science, the causes should be known, therefore an accident that would lead to all the conditions necessary for life and intelligent life on Earth would require a miracle.

If fungus grows in my drain pipe, is that a miracle?
That depends. How did the fungus get to be in the drain pipe? Are the causes known or not?

Ego as in no proof or even evidence. Just personal belief.
If that's the definition of ego then I don't have one...:rolleyes:

We've been around for several million years in roughly our present form. Those gods are less than several thousand years old.
Wrong. The First Cause/Prime Mover is at least 15 billion years old.

[pjdude1219]

Robert Heinlein wrote: Stranger in a strange land. His short books are OK but his longer ones are rubbish.

Blasphemy.

[Ophiolite]

Robert Heinlein wrote: Stranger in a strange land. His short books are OK but his longer ones are rubbish.
Sorry. I must have been in reverse gear. I have probably read everything by Heinlein at least once. The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was one of the best SF novels of its era. I agree he got a little self indulgent in his later works, but they still had some interesting ideas and generally make a good read. Stranger was interesting for its mix of right and left ideologies.

[goose]

Because according to science, the causes should be known, therefore an accident that would lead to all the conditions necessary for life and intelligent life on Earth would require a miracle.

According to science, you use Occams Razor, which basically says go with the easiest explanation... and im pretty sure easiest, experimented, answer is to go with evolution... we are who we are because evolution decided to evolve us this certain way because of our atmosphere and our surroundings...

i dont know about you, but that is much easier to understand and see than looking for some superpower who can grant miracles at its will... life on earth doesnt have to be the only intelligent life, and the way we evolved is deffinently not the only way intelligent life could evolve...

i dont even know if you could say it was luck... we made our way through history from evolution, we survived, we(through trial and error) created who and what we are today

[sridharanr]

Why do people assume that the human race was placed on this earth for some purpose? When you look around at other people you’re seeing millions of years of evolution. It’s very difficult for some people to understand how the whole process functions and it is much easier to simply say that a "higher power" is to blame. I don't want to come across as someone who wants to put an end to religion. Furthermore, if my two unborn children chose to pursue a religion and spend their life’s following it, so be it. I think it’s important that people have some goal, something to believe in, and something they feel will help them through the hard times in life. But, on the other hand, if you really look at it, you are not some much different than a dog, cat, or even some dinosaur. You both have eyes that work the same way, a skeletal system that is moved by the same muscles, blood that flows through veins and is pumped by a heart, etc.... (If the human race we placed here by some magical power, we would be vastly different from other creatures on this planet. Like, instead of seeing our heart pumping by use of an MRI, we would see some magical glowing light in our torso that somehow gives us life.) The only thing that really separates us from other life forms is intelligents and with intelligents comes questions. Without the knowledge of science, mathematics, and physics we had to ask ourselves "where did we come from?", "why are we here?", and "we must be placed here for a reason, right?" The answers to these questions are very difficult to answer, but are slowly being revealed. I myself don't believe in a "higher power,” With the exception of some physical science related phenomenon that is far too difficult to answer with present day physics. Like I said before, I think it’s great and vital that people believe in something. But for me, I choose to live life to the fullest, work hard at bettering myself, be cool to people, and believe only in myself. After all, we are only here for a short time, and 32 years has gone by way too quickly....

G'day dj
Your vision concepts are fine. Should we have a science discussion at all....?

[sridharanr]

We are at best an accident. Only ego says otherwise.

No one knows our origin. WE created over 2,850 gods (including any you can name).

G'day Kaneda
Your first sentence agrees with God played the dice.
Your second sentence opposes Einstein's ego.
Your third sentence disapproves Evolution.
Your fourth sentence approves 2850 (or more) gods played the dice!

[Harro]

There is probably plenty of dice being thrown in the universe especially on the small scale, only if you threw the dice often enough and it is effected by the physical nature of the universe you’ll find a statical weighting in the coarse of least resistance especially on the large scale. Nuclear isotopic half-life of radioactive material springs to mind here. :)
How free will affects the rolls of the dice? That is for free willed beings to decide but you'll still find they too are being pushed in the direction of least resistance.

I myself am a naturalistic pantheist so I believe nature and all its parts are god. Not requiring a supernatural being, and with out concern to human needs and desires. I also think the universe is eternal, no beginning and no end just a constant evolving process of creation with new beginnings and new ends and new beginnings. Where the future in never exactly the same as the past but nature binds it all together in an infinite cyclical process.

With this concept you begin to realise that with out all parts that make the earth and without the earth we don’t exist, with out the sun we don’t exist, with out the Milky Way we don’t exist, with out the universe we don’t exist. All things are connected in this intrinsic manor. To think the universes only purpose was for mankind is a selfish view or at least self cantered. In other words the standard genesis god view is that creation was for mankind and flies in the face of the evolving nature of the universe. From the universe point of view all things are equal and its man that set himself above all else. That’s not to say consciousness isn’t special, you bet we are. We are made of Atoms and energy the same stuff the universe is made of and we gain knowledge of it and we are blessed with the experience of life and all the beauty of nature. For biology I think our purpose could be to be nurturers and providers just as the earth and the universe is the nurturer and provider for life. That which could become our eternal legacy in the universe. Either that or we become extinct and naturual universe will continue as it always has regardles.

With this in mind I begin to see the roots of theology in biblical text and how the thoughts of early mankind shapped its contents.

I’m feeling a bit philosophical atm lol. :D

[(Q)]

I don't moderate this forum anymore, but I certainly would have moved this thread to Religion where it belongs, based on the OP.

[kaneda]

G'day Kaneda
Your first sentence agrees with God played the dice.
Your second sentence opposes Einstein's ego.
Your third sentence disapproves Evolution.
Your fourth sentence approves 2850 (or more) gods played the dice!

1. I don't believe in any gods.
2. Einstein did not believe in god either. Some do and they think that god made the universe just for them.
3. Evolution has nothing to do with origins and deals with life AFTER it has appeared.
4. See 1.

[kaneda]

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress was one of the best SF novels of its era.

Agreed. Did you ever read The Moon is Hell by John W Campbell?

I found Time Enough For Love a little creepy with an immortal having sex with everything in sight including himself in clone form.

[sridharanr]

We are at best an accident. Only ego says otherwise.
No one knows our origin. WE created over 2,850 gods (including any you can name).

sridharanr replied
Your first sentence agrees with God played the dice.
Your second sentence opposes Einstein's ego.
Your third sentence disapproves Evolution.
Your fourth sentence approves 2850 (or more) gods played the dice!

kaneda replied
1. I don't believe in any gods.
2. Einstein did not believe in god either. Some do and they think that god made the universe just for them.
3. Evolution has nothing to do with origins and deals with life AFTER it has appeared.
4. See 1.

Hello Kaneda
Now
1. Any thing by accident is nothing but rolling the dice.
2. Einstein's never believed in accidents.
3. At present the accepted origin of the Universe is the standard model unless and otherwise there is an alternative to this that is also accepted.
(at present accepted Evolution of the universe is the standard model)
4. We create many gods and create universe accidentally so many times

-sridharanr

[Ophiolite]

Agreed. Did you ever read The Moon is Hell by John W Campbell?I don't recall it. If I did, it would have been four decades ago.
I found Time Enough For Love a little creepy with an immortal having sex with everything in sight including himself in clone form.I think it was Time Enough for Love that has towards the end a giant party with people brought in from many times and parallel universes. There is a developing reference to the possibility that 'the good doctor' may be among those coming. He is never named, but one is left with the growing impression it is none other than Heinlein's main contemporary competition, Isaac Azimov. Many glowing things are said of him by many of the characters. In the event it turns out to be not Isaac Azimov, but Isaac Newton. I am half convinced that Heinlein wrote the entire lengthy novel just so he could take this little bit of leg pulling at the expense of his rival.