Obama as President

[Xylene]

Well, I've just been watching the coverage of the US election from here in New Zealand, and they've called the election for Barak Obama, and Mr McCain has just given his concession speech--which a lot of his audience weren't happy about, going by their initial reaction...may I suggest a day (or a week) of prayers for national unity?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Xylene-I admit it. I'm scared of what is going to happen next. Fear is a monster which drives things forward. Civil War started because of what Lincoln MIGHT do. <shudder>

[Xylene]

The thing that keeps me (and Mr Obama as well, I suppose) awake at night is the possibility that some raving psycho racist f-wit is going to blow Obama away--that would come close to starting a civil war.

[Asguard]

Mr Ham are you REALLY that concerned that he might put gun restrictions which will save lives EVEN if he can and choses to?

seriously my respect for you just droped ALOT my friend (besides which concidering your medical conditions you SHOULDNT have guns)

Im more worried that some white facist terrioust could assinate him, there have already been people charged for trying

[Syzygys]

...and now let the false hope for change begin!

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Asguard-luckily I don't require respect. :D

Yes, I'm scared. Guns are beside the point. It's like this has all been staged. We gave up certain freedoms with the patriot act and wiretapping. I'm afraid we are facing a paradigm shift... One in which freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose, but in reality, not just in song. There are a thousand ways for this to go poorly.

[Asguard]

Mr ham, sorry but when is your next shrinks apointment?
you might want to move up the date

[Repo Man]

...and now let the false hope for change begin!

We have a president elect who is thoughtful and eloquent. Who is very unlikely to use logical fallacies in his speeches. And who seems capable of compromise. This has been most sorely lacking in international relations. I always think back to this passage:

Bismarck with extreme astuteness won three wars and unified Germany. The long run result of his policy has been that Germany has suffered two colossal defeats. These resulted because he taught Germans to be indifferent to the interests of all countries except Germany, and generated an aggressive spirit which in the end united the world against his successors. Selfishness beyond a point, whether individual or national, is not wise. It may with luck succeed, but if it fails failure is terrible. Few men will run this risk unless they are supported by a theory, for it is only theory that makes men completely incautious.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/2528/br_ideaharm.htm

There must be give and take with international relations. At the very least, I don't think any further damage will be done.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Mr ham, sorry but when is your next shrinks apointment?
you might want to move up the date


Very impressive comeback. You and Q would make quite the team, reminding me of my mental health status so often. Quick to that sort of thing, or just a bit off your game this evening?

[Asguard]

Ham im sorry, that was mean your right. My point is that your being paranoid. Yes what your proposing is TECHNICALLY possable but the chances of it happerning are VERY unlikly.

Not to mention that now you might actually GET universal health care that not only yourself but the whole country so despratly NEEDS

I know mad wouldnt be happy with this of course:p

[Mr. Hamtastic]

But at what cost? Weakening defense spending? The death of free market capitalism? Universal Health Care is something that comes with a double-edge.

[Asguard]

you honestly think there arnt areas of defence which couldnt be cut without operational loss? Thats even if defence DOES get cut

sadly i think they will have to increase the buget to the SS, i REALLY hope im wrong on that though.

As for capitalisium how do you think UHC will end the free market?
You think england or australia arnt capitalist?
trust me we are but we also demand that health and education NOT be based on how much wealth you have, that they be based on NEED, that they are fundermental human rights.

Insted of lissioning to Reagens scare campains i suggest you actually look at WHY so many countries have UHC and wether WE would chose to abolish it. Though the Australian MA might like to get rid of medicare there is no way in hell the public would.

My partner was in hospital over the weekend, yes it took a long time for her to get onto a ward but the care was GREAT. The nurses were fantastic to both her and myself

[Ophiolite]

...and now let the false hope for change begin!
One should always admire such optimism. :rolleyes:
It is your choice to become part of the problem, rather than contribute to the solution.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

UHC is a great concept. Don't get me wrong. Communism would have been great if it had worked ideally, as well. How many percent income tax goes to supporting your UHC? Plus SS? Plus Medicare reform? Obama has been all about a 25% cut indefense spending all along. Now re-enlistment will be reduced significantly, as it was during Clinton. Where will the GI's find jobs?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

One should always admire such optimism. :rolleyes:
It is your choice to become part of the problem, rather than contribute to the solution.


I wonder how many bolsheviks thought that way upon seeing Stalin move into power.

[Asguard]

Mr ham you can ABOLISH medicare if you introduce UHC. As for SS i dont really expect spending there to increase dramatically. Even if they have to buy a pope mobile its not going to cost BILLIONS.

Besides its been shown across the world as goverment expenditure in health goes UP (as a percentage of total) the TOTAL cost comes down.

Partually this is because of market power (they have more power to dictate price), effeciancy and a whole heep of other reasons but it is a fact

Put it this way, if your tax increased $5 a month and you didnt have to spend ANY money on insurance would you be behind or ahead in real terms?

[Asguard]

oh and they could try working in health:p

[Mr. Hamtastic]

ahead, until I lost my job because no one can afford to build new commercial buildings in rural america. Then I'd have a problem.

[Asguard]

why do you think that you would lose your job because of UHC?
if anything MORE services go into the less "profitable" areas when under goverment control because they are working strategically to place services rather than looking for the biggest profit margins

[Asguard]

put it this way, say you have 10 hospitals with in a close vacinity all compeating against each other doing things like breat enlargements

Goverment takes over

they upgrade one, to a full trauma center and then sell off the land from the other 9 and offer the staff jobs in rural area's there by reducing overlap and cost and extending service. MUCH more efficent

[Repo Man]

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/5703/georgecarlintk1bp9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The late, great George Carlin was the king of the cynical and jaded. Of course, scratch a cynic, and there is a disappointed idealist underneath. Were he alive tonight, I think maybe even he would be willing to concede that there is a chance that this is beyond business as usual. I think this election has meant something.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

you don't get it, do you? Profit-driven businesses look at taxes with fear. They tend to turtle up and refuse to grow, because they are taxed on profits, not gross. Less growth and you have increasing unemployment. Construction lives and breathes growth. Without it, they become repairmen, which is a seperate specialist field. Retraining workers alone will bankrupt some businesses, or cause multiple businesses to be swallowed up by larger ones. This goes far enough and you wind up with a country of wintel giants reporting profits of .0001% of gross.

[Asguard]

hey repo, is that the guy who played "rufus" in bill and ted?
he looks like him if its not

[Asguard]

Ham, RELAX. Have you seen that happen in the UK? or Australia?

Hell you were the one begging me to send you a bus ticket.

UHC IS NOT GOING TO CAUSE ARMOGEDEN

[Mr. Hamtastic]

put it this way, say you have 10 hospitals with in a close vacinity all compeating against each other doing things like breat enlargements

Goverment takes over

they upgrade one, to a full trauma center and then sell off the land from the other 9 and offer the staff jobs in rural area's there by reducing overlap and cost and extending service. MUCH more efficent


precisely. what about the staff that can't relocate? How many other things will the government regulate? They have already moved into banking...

[Challenger78]

The thing that keeps me (and Mr Obama as well, I suppose) awake at night is the possibility that some raving psycho racist f-wit is going to blow Obama away--that would come close to starting a civil war.

Same here in Australia.
I've been saying that to my friends, and they reckon, that there will be at least a few assassination attempts on him while in office.

[Repo Man]

I don't remember his character's name, but he was in both of those movies, so yes. One of my all time favorite comedians. I was sincerely sad when I learned of his passing.

[Asguard]

Challanger sadly i half expected to see a lazer sight light up on his head while he was giving his speach:(

SS is going to have to be on there toes

[Mr. Hamtastic]

UHC is just the first domino. I fear the first domino's falling because the rest fall so easily. What doesn't the government regulate in Australia, Asguard? How easily could they impose censorship and a curfew in metropolitan areas of Australia and the UK?

[Asguard]

umm have you seen the court case against the NSW state goverment?
your right its technically possable but practically its just not going to happen

BTW there are moves to put a bill of rights into our consitution but im not really concerned that it will be nessary. If they ever put forward a referendum for it i will be looking at each one carefully to make sure its not going to protect the WRONG people and limit the goverment too far

You do realise australia has been going for over 200 years as a democratic nation and we have had what the US would call socialist leanings for a lot of that time and we arnt anywhere NEAR facisum

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Big brother government is a strong fear in the US. How much red-tape is there between you and some government official taking you quietly away in the night? Or simply installing video inside your home, to be ready to help you should the need arise?

[Asguard]

the house of reps, the senate, the high court, the state parliments (because they would be the only ones with a right to do that), the high court again (if they tried to stop us going to a different state, that is forbiden)

Oh and the GG and most importantly COMMON SENCE

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Common sense can be different when viewed from on high.

[Repo Man]

UHC is just the first domino.

Yes, look at the Orwellian dystopia that Canada has become, thanks to their single payer health care system! Slope's slippery!

[sniffy]

I think the first thing to be said of a President elect is 'Congratulations'.

The fellow hasn't even taken a step yet......give him and his team a flaming chance...

[DwayneD.L.Rabon]

Ok well, Barrack Obama has become the new presdient elect, Both by electoral vote and popular vote, But this is not a concentrated vote meaning a Vote that holds a clear majority like say 60%, 75% or even 100%. Barrack Obama won by Like 5% of the peoples vote which means that domestically America is a divided country.
President Bush won his office by less than that, he won the electoral vote but did not win the people vote (called the popular vote) and so the country was in a upheaval to the point that some organizations say he is the worst president in American histroy in other words he could get support from politicans but the general public did not agree with him on many issues.
Barrack Obama has to face a simular situation has he does not have a clear majority of Americans behind him. its like running the football with half of the team instead of the whole team. Most presidents of America have had the same problem seeing the resistance within the American congress.
This seems to happen quite often in America but on a more Domestic level and what happens is that half of the people have to live for years sometimes decades with goverment and laws that are aganist thier belief and suffer from penalities or other social set backs for being different than the winning 51% of the population, simply put the other 49% of the people in the State,County or city have to suffer. It becomes decades because very few laws are reviewed in a state of county even when law makers have changed. so it can get distorted as well because some domestic laws that were directed at a certain generation or condition of enviroment,custom ect... no longer exist for the next generation... and really most trends or social behaviors ectra only last for about 5 to 10 years, so laws inacted on society are out of date rather quickly. which is confusing and problem causing for older people as they see the law begin to encroach upon what was a normal way of life in many aspects rather then from just a curbing of social trend. So it beings to seem like a cage and a impostion on life, As old laws and new laws start to be misused by different groups (used out of context).
Because of such problems and differences is the real reason that we have different States, before people could just decide to leave and move to another state or find a remote region of the state to move where they could behave according to thier indivdual freedom. which is actually why the Civil Rights Act was made in America.
So people or even buisnesses would move mainly because some State goverments where prejudice, some people do not give thier rights to the State for Dictational management, For example Procreation Rights or Progenry Right, but what you find currnetly is that in America one State Goverment pass a law on a Individual Right so people move to another state to protect thier right, that new State does not violate thier Right but because of agreements between States the state that does not violate your rights that you move to for protection forces the person to live by the legal customs of the State that violated your rights sending you back to that State or helping that state punish or controll you.

In end having only a partial vote of the public leads to Antagonism and resentments and suffurage for part of the population ( a good example is segregation).


DwayneD.L.Rabon

[Zakariya04]

it will be the same ol same ol, mark my words!!

[DwayneD.L.Rabon]

Well I will say that is most likly true, Zakaria untill it gets bad enough where Americans understand how lunatic their system is operating And their are out breaks of Violence.
Thomas Jefferson words in the Declaration of Independence Still reamain true to this very day how easily Americans forget the foundation of their own Country.

So then we wait untill One arises to cast off the tyranny and lead the people to Freedom once again.

Even in current times foregin analyst say the domestic operation of america is Lunatic, That america is near faliure. Worse... Older Americans have personally told me that the real America was destroyed years ago that it is a wayward country now, and the best thing to do is find a place I like and leave.
DwayneD.L.Rabon

[OilIsMastery]

may I suggest a day (or a week) of prayers for national unity?
Benjamin Franklin proposed that in 1787: http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/benfranklin.htm

No one listened.

[Captain Kremmen]

Big brother government is a strong fear in the US. How much red-tape is there between you and some government official taking you quietly away in the night? Or simply installing video inside your home, to be ready to help you should the need arise?


It's already there. It's called google chrome.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

They creep in quietly. I wonder how many Obama voters have had the new flu shots. :rolleyes: