The God Gene (exceptional explanation) :D

[lightgigantic]

Truly amazing (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-M-vnmejwXo)

[KennyJC]

Most probably with a pinch of certainty and a cherry on top, everything we do can be explained mechanically.

[lightgigantic]

Most probably with a pinch of certainty and a cherry on top, everything we do can be explained mechanically.
at this point you might get punched in the head (with the risk of saying "thankyou I needed that"
:roflmao:

[greenberg]

Truly amazing (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-M-vnmejwXo)

Ha! I haven't seen anything so witty in a long time!
Thanks for posting it.

[KennyJC]

at this point you might get punched in the head (with the risk of saying "thankyou I needed that"
:roflmao:

What is wrong with the notion that there is a mechanical explanation for everything in this universe?

What makes the inner workings of the human brain different to everything else?

[OilIsMastery]

The God Gene
Is absolute nonsense. My religious views have changed over time.

Cleese is spot on with his mockery of scientists.

[lightgigantic]

What is wrong with the notion that there is a mechanical explanation for everything in this universe?
it's simply a tall story

What makes the inner workings of the human brain different to everything else?
what makes the workings of consciousness similar to a rock?

[KennyJC]

it's simply a tall story

How so?

Science has for centuries been providing mechanical explanations to things we once thought were magical; rainbows, sunrise, lunar eclipse, etc etc..

Of course, down to a molecular level, it get's more difficult to either test or understand what is going on, but based upon the track record of science, there is always a material explanation and we eventually discover it.

what makes the workings of consciousness similar to a rock?

Probably as similar as bowel movement has in common with a rock. Two completely different things, yet most certainly both material phenomena.

Consciousness without brain is like bowel movement without digestive system.

[lightgigantic]

Kenny

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
it's simply a tall story
”
How so?

Science has for centuries been providing mechanical explanations to things we once thought were magical; rainbows, sunrise, lunar eclipse, etc etc..

Of course, down to a molecular level, it get's more difficult to either test or understand what is going on, but based upon the track record of science, there is always a material explanation and we eventually discover it.
the only problem is when you extrapolate this phenomena to infinite dimensions

“
what makes the workings of consciousness similar to a rock?
”
Probably as similar as bowel movement has in common with a rock. Two completely different things, yet most certainly both material phenomena.

Consciousness without brain is like bowel movement without digestive system.
if having a bowel movement was completely material, dead people would be required to have their diapers changed at least once every 24 hours

[PsychoticEpisode]

Lg....more silliness? John Cleese is religious philosophy's voice? I hope you mean it.

[lightgigantic]

Lg....more silliness? John Cleese is religious philosophy's voice? .
Cleese is just a satirist - and I guess some things are just so plain silly that they attract his attention

(btw you do realize that it is just a chemical released from a gene that made you type that response, don't you?)

[KennyJC]

Kenny

the only problem is when you extrapolate this phenomena to infinite dimensions

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

My view is that for a god to exist and then create the universe we live in - he created a universe governed by laws which we see as being material. Unchangable laws and physical properties from the very large to the very small.

Where you currently stand on consciousness is where man stood untill the 19th century assuming a magical formation of the human body. Until science of course came along as showed an apparent godless emergence of the human body through physical laws. In a similar way, consciousness follows these same "godless" laws.

if having a bowel movement was completely material, dead people would be required to have their diapers changed at least once every 24 hours

Dead people (at least people who have been dead a long time) can not shit because of completely material reasons. How can you shit if your bowels are dryed and shrivelled up?

[quantum_wave]

The Cleese skit made good humor out of a logical sequence of events that might follow from the concept of a God gene. Logically, if there is a gene to believe in God, there could be one for every other conscious thought and so everything becomes mechanical and predetermined. The mechanics are passed along to us genetically and every cell in us has the code and so everything is predictable.

But then there is the uncertainty and entanglement and decoherence at the quantum level that wipes out all of that predetermination in the quantum depths within the genes and so there is no predetermination after all. The mechanics are still there but there is ultimate uncertainty as to what the next conscious thought will be, or exactly when it will take place. In other words it cannot be predetermined what the thought will be and when it will occur. Non-locality and certainty or uncertainty and locality, you can't have both.

But you can have a genetic predisposition to contemplate God at some point, i.e. a predetermined thought without a predetermined time. It is perfectly legal in the quantum realm and satisfies both uncertainty and locality. Duck, here comes that red boxing glove.

[lightgigantic]

Kenny

the only problem is when you extrapolate this phenomena to infinite dimensions
”
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
here's another example

ten men can dig a hole in 2x2x2m hole in 60 minutes
therefore one hundred men can dig a 2x2x2m hole in 6 minutes

do you find any problems with this suggestion?

My view is that for a god to exist and then create the universe we live in - he created a universe governed by laws which we see as being material. Unchangable laws and physical properties from the very large to the very small.
there is the suggestion that we have an origin beyond matter

Where you currently stand on consciousness is where man stood untill the 19th century assuming a magical formation of the human body.
love it or loathe it, consciousness still stands head and shoulders outside of any reductionist model you care to think of.
the only way you can suggest otherwise is by adding something non-scientific to the argument

Until science of course came along as showed an apparent godless emergence of the human body through physical laws. In a similar way, consciousness follows these same "godless" laws.
I don't know whether you have passed out into your Doritos while watching star trek or something, but science has not shown anything of the sort.

“
if having a bowel movement was completely material, dead people would be required to have their diapers changed at least once every 24 hours
”
Dead people (at least people who have been dead a long time) can not shit because of completely material reasons. How can you shit if your bowels are dryed and shrivelled up?
if you think that consciousness can be shown to be materially reducible, it should be easy to moisturize the bowels of a dead person ....
:D

[greenberg]

if you think that consciousness can be shown to be materially reducible, it should be easy to moisturize the bowels of a dead person ....

"But those completely material reasons need to take place in a very specific order, within specific timeframes and other parameters, otherwise consciousness will not emerge. What you are positing above is simply a reductio ad absurdum."

- goes the atheist counterargument, right?

[lightgigantic]

"But those completely material reasons need to take place in a very specific order, within specific timeframes and other parameters, otherwise consciousness will not emerge. What you are positing above is simply a reductio ad absurdum."

- goes the atheist counterargument, right?
sure
and I guess one could go on to wonder about the value of empirical claims without specifics .....

[KennyJC]

there is the suggestion that we have an origin beyond matter

If true, why does that mean consciousness or farts live on after our bodies shrivel into nothingness?

love it or loathe it, consciousness still stands head and shoulders outside of any reductionist model you care to think of.

If we had no brains, you may be on to something. However, we do have brains and without brain cells (and probably millions of other cooperating material interactions) we can not have memory, emotions, communicate, coordinate, see, hear, move, feel hunger, breathe etc.

That thing between your ears actually does stuff.

the only way you can suggest otherwise is by adding something non-scientific to the argument

The significance of the role the brain plays in generating consciousness and self-awareness is quite clearly displayed by brain damaged humans, and comparitive studies in the animal kingdom. ie. Animals with a highly developed neocortex show signs of self-awareness and higher consciousness.

if you think that consciousness can be shown to be materially reducible, it should be easy to moisturize the bowels of a dead person ....
:D

It's easier to show that consciousness (a word that basically describes most higher functions in the brain) is emergant as can be shown by the evolution of humans.

[DeepThought]

Scientists will no doubt soon discover a gene which explains why some people drink coffee over tea, or vice versa, and why some people carpet their homes, whilst others prefer wooden flooring.

There's also probably an array of genes which determine which type of animal people prefer as pets and even what type of car we drive.

I'm so happy I'm alive during this wonderful age of science and not some unthinking village dullard being told how the world works by a cleric in the Middle Ages.

[JDawg]

Scientists will no doubt soon discover a gene which explains why some people drink coffee over tea, or vice versa, and why some people carpet their homes, whilst others prefer wooden flooring.

There's also probably an array of genes which determine which type of animal people prefer as pets and even what type of car we drive.

I'm so happy I'm alive during this wonderful age of science and not some unthinking village dullard being told how the world works by a cleric in the Middle Ages.

Rock on, brother! I agree!

[PsychoticEpisode]

Cleese is just a satirist - and I guess some things are just so plain silly that they attract his attention

No!!.....Really:rolleyes:

How do you know he is dissing science. Maybe he's satirizing those ignorant of scientific discovery or those who have difficulty comprehending science. Cleese is a smart guy, a master of the double entendre, a recognized ambassador of satire. You & me are left wondering who he is referring to. A plus for you and a minus for me, or vice versa, all adding up to nothing but a good laugh.

LG, are you advocating such a thing as a god gene? Did it evolve? If so, then is it the result of a good mutation, considering a vast majority of changes are not?

[lightgigantic]

No!!.....Really:rolleyes:

How do you know he is dissing science. Maybe he's satirizing those ignorant of scientific discovery or those who have difficulty comprehending science.
or maybe even those who don't understand satire

Cleese is a smart guy, a master of the double entendre, a recognized ambassador of satire. You & me are left wondering who he is referring to. A plus for you and a minus for me, or vice versa, all adding up to nothing but a good laugh.
I guess for a person like yourself who can entertain a reductionist view of the universe, anything is possible

LG, are you advocating such a thing as a god gene? Did it evolve? If so, then is it the result of a good mutation, considering a vast majority of changes are not?
:roflmao:
stop it!
you're killing me!
:roflmao:

[lightgigantic]

Kenny

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
there is the suggestion that we have an origin beyond matter
”
If true, why does that mean consciousness or farts live on after our bodies shrivel into nothingness?
Maybe you can arrive at an the answer after more deeply contemplating your bodily emissions ...

“
love it or loathe it, consciousness still stands head and shoulders outside of any reductionist model you care to think of.
”
If we had no brains, you may be on to something. However, we do have brains and without brain cells (and probably millions of other cooperating material interactions) we can not have memory, emotions, communicate, coordinate, see, hear, move, feel hunger, breathe etc.

That thing between your ears actually does stuff.
similarly a light bulb also does stuff ...... at the expense of drawing electricity (as opposed to generating it)
:o

“
the only way you can suggest otherwise is by adding something non-scientific to the argument
”
The significance of the role the brain plays in generating consciousness and self-awareness is quite clearly displayed by brain damaged humans, and comparitive studies in the animal kingdom. ie. Animals with a highly developed neocortex show signs of self-awareness and higher consciousness.
doesn't matter if the light bulb is brighter, dimmer, damaged or completely dysfuntional - it doesn't generate electricity. The same holds true with the brain in regards to consciousness. In short the only exceptions there are to an inert brain generating consciousness lies in star trek

“
if you think that consciousness can be shown to be materially reducible, it should be easy to moisturize the bowels of a dead person ....

”
It's easier to show that consciousness (a word that basically describes most higher functions in the brain) is emergant as can be shown by the evolution of humans.
beam me up scotty!

[lightgigantic]

Deep Thought
Scientists will no doubt ...
sorry buddy
post dated cheques don't cut the mustard ... especially in empiricism

I'm so happy I'm alive during this wonderful age of science and not some unthinking village dullard being told how the world works by a cleric in the Middle Ages.
dude, you've simply swapped apothecaries for your soothsaying
:o