View Full Version : The christian Bible...
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 11:57 AM
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen001.htm
Genesis chapter 1 KJV-The link takes you to a good verse by verse, in case you want to quibble about specifics. Copy/paste from there to here if you want to beat on one verse in isolation, more if you're feeling daring. If you would rather, just reference book-chapter-verse-to-verse.
I'm doing this because there is a lot of confusion on how people understand the bible. Some would say it's literal and perfect, others would say it's got as much truth as the moon being put into the sky by a crab. I lean towards the latter, myself.
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.
Hard to argue with that. Whether he did it yesterday, set off the big bang billions of years ago, or did it 6032 years ago next tuesday. If you can accept God as a first cause, it gets easier after this.
Accepting God as the first cause is what takes the leap of faith. There is nothing to suggest that's how it started.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 12:29 PM
Yes. Atheism starts at Genesis 1:1. You need proof, beyond what somebody a long time ago wrote down. I can dig that. I'm very interested in what others think, Fundamentalist christians, or anti-theist atheists... Later We'll go to chapter 2 :D
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 12:59 PM
Lori-Are you going from the idea that God is a something, vs a nothing? I'd suggest that God is everywhere and everything at once, but the subtraction of any consciousness from God does not move said consciousness out of God, but puts it closer to God that he might do with it as he chooses. But that's a whole different thread, you goose.
well, it just seems like so many times people talk about god as if he's some human, or an old dude wheeling planets and lightning bolts around in the sky, and like what he does is magic, and i don't think that he's anything remotely like that and i don't believe in magic.
religious people are the worst culprits of this, atheists buy right in because it supports a logical rejection of the notion, and i think it's particularly relevant to the creation debate in a science vs magic kind of way when theists reject science and scientists reject god.
OK, well, since you offered...
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
The notion of dividing the light from the dark goes to show how little ancient man (or at least these ancient men) understood about astronomy. There was no "dividing" light from dark.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Another display of people who just don't get how the world works. "Waters above"? Where? The sky? Ah yes, because back then, it would probably be a safe assumption that there was some sort of body of water in the sky. Otherwise, how else would it rain?
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
And one more just for fun. Two lights, is what the verse says, but two lights are what they are not. As we all know, the moon does not create its own light, but rather it reflects it. And to make the stars an afterthought such as the author did implies that the author had absolutely no idea that the stars were in fact the same thing as our sun. And quite a bit larger, in most cases.
at the moment, i'm inclined to believe that god is law...at least. creation according to it.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 01:26 PM
Lori-precisely. God doesn't fit into theists or atheists boxes. Omnipresesnt... Everywhere, all the time.
JDawg-Good points. Why I view the creation story citd here as a story to make kids quit asking why. God's not going to go into particle physics for ancient man, there's no need too. The bible could have started just as well with,"God has always been. Then people showed up." I mean, if you want to deny the existence of God based on man's ignorance, you are more than welcome to, it just seems silly to me.
JDawg-Good points. Why I view the creation story citd here as a story to make kids quit asking why. God's not going to go into particle physics for ancient man, there's no need too. The bible could have started just as well with,"God has always been. Then people showed up." I mean, if you want to deny the existence of God based on man's ignorance, you are more than welcome to, it just seems silly to me.
It's not that the author doesn't get into particle physics, it's that he's just flat-out wrong about it. You don't have to be a particle physicist to understand the basic concepts. And how hard would it have been to just say "Oh, the moon? Yeah, it actually just reflects the light from the sun." Would that be so hard? No, of course not. Just like water reflects light. Simple.
So it's not the simplicity of it that bothers me, it's the errors.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 02:02 PM
Then again, maybe God didn't tell him a thing, maybe God said,"That's not important" so man got creative. It's like Hansel and Gretel, is the existence of the cannibal the problem, or is it the candy house? It puts them to sleep at bedtime, so I can roll with it. :D Stressing out about something as minor as creation, when man was busy working out things like fire, speech, how to properly undress a bear, eh. I think God had bigger fish to fry. "Hi, I'm God, I'll be the Deity on this journey." and he saw it was good, said it was good, and it was good, just isn't as captivating, you know?
spidergoat
10-29-08, 02:15 PM
A first cause doesn't have to be anything particularly meaningful. I don't know how my car works, but something must bring it to life, and I will call that thing the Key. Well, everyone knows the key is just incidental to how an internal combustion engine works.
Lori-precisely. God doesn't fit into theists or atheists boxes. Omnipresesnt... Everywhere, all the time.
JDawg-Good points. Why I view the creation story citd here as a story to make kids quit asking why. God's not going to go into particle physics for ancient man, there's no need too. The bible could have started just as well with,"God has always been. Then people showed up." I mean, if you want to deny the existence of God based on man's ignorance, you are more than welcome to, it just seems silly to me.
But that does beg the question of what God in fact is..
Then again, maybe God didn't tell him a thing, maybe God said,"That's not important" so man got creative. It's like Hansel and Gretel, is the existence of the cannibal the problem, or is it the candy house? It puts them to sleep at bedtime, so I can roll with it. :D Stressing out about something as minor as creation, when man was busy working out things like fire, speech, how to properly undress a bear, eh. I think God had bigger fish to fry. "Hi, I'm God, I'll be the Deity on this journey." and he saw it was good, said it was good, and it was good, just isn't as captivating, you know?
Of course God didn't tell him a thing. But what then in the Bible is there left to believe ?
i perceive the bible to be a teaching tool, not necessarily something to arbitrarily believe.
i perceive the bible to be a teaching tool, not necessarily something to arbitrarily believe.
But to teach what ?
whatever you need to know...for the greater good i suppose...to accomplish his purpose.
whatever you need to know...for the greater good i suppose...to accomplish his purpose.
Well that is kind of vague.. can you get into a bit more detail ?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 02:42 PM
Of course God didn't tell him a thing. But what then in the Bible is there left to believe ?
Bible's pretty big. Maybe you missed the Hansel and Gretel thing. The bible teaches much through allegory and parable. Or perhaps you'd rather stick to literalism out of simplicity of argument for you?
Bible's pretty big. Maybe you missed the Hansel and Gretel thing. The bible teaches much through allegory and parable. Or perhaps you'd rather stick to literalism out of simplicity of argument for you?
If you admit that some of the bible is just purely made up then how do you know whether or not the rest is actually true ?
Perhaps they also made up God and Jesus..
I am not saying they did, but you yourself said that they may have made up the things about creation.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 03:04 PM
Enmos-My first knowledge of George Washington was that he cut down a cherry tree and admitted it. If that is false, why should I believe anything told to me about George Washington?
Well that is kind of vague.. can you get into a bit more detail ?
well, if i were to speculate, i would say that his purpose would involve eternal life. a creation that enters into it voluntarily and with knowledge of good and evil with the consequences being life and death, developing an understanding within it that law and the consequences of it are perfect and always work for the greater good, thereby convincing the creation to adhere to it always and voluntarily. my opinion is that right now creation is in a dark age, due to this infliction we call sin and the consequences of it being so unavoidable. with it inherently instilled in us like some birth defect we suffer. we experience both the consequence of good and of evil and learn the difference. i think we'll be delivered from this defect through a perfected bloodline...genetically by blood we will be saved (the blood of christ), and without sin we will live for eternity.
Enmos-My first knowledge of George Washington was that he cut down a cherry tree and admitted it. If that is false, why should I believe anything told to me about George Washington?
No you got that backwards. If I told you about the cherry tree among other things about George Washington, and the story about the cherry tree turns out to be a lie why would you believe any of the other stories I told you about him ?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 03:16 PM
Not for me, anyway, that was personally accurate as I stated it, but you got the substance. Why should I?
Not for me, anyway, that was personally accurate as I stated it, but you got the substance. Why should I?
No you misunderstand. I'm saying that you should be critical of a source that has told you lies or inaccuracies.
I am not saying that you should dismiss all sources that talk about the subject.
well, if i were to speculate, i would say that his purpose would involve eternal life.
a creation that enters into it voluntarily and with knowledge of good and evil with the consequences being life and death, developing an understanding within it that law and the consequences of it are perfect and always work for the greater good, thereby convincing the creation to adhere to it always and voluntarily.
my opinion is that right now creation is in a dark age, due to this infliction we call sin and the consequences of it being so unavoidable.
with it inherently instilled in us like some birth defect we suffer.
we experience both the consequence of good and of evil and learn the difference.
i think we'll be delivered from this defect through a perfected bloodline...genetically by blood we will be saved (the blood of christ), and without sin we will live for eternity.
Uh ok, but I simply asked you what teachings you use the bible for.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 03:27 PM
Enmos-define critical. My dad told me about Santa Claus until I nailed him on it when I was four. Should I disbelieve him about walking across the street AFTER looking both ways?
Enmos-define critical. My dad told me about Santa Claus until I nailed him on it when I was four. Should I disbelieve him about walking across the street AFTER looking both ways?
Common sense seems to be the key ;)
Uh ok, but I simply asked you what teachings you use the bible for.
and i just told you. you think i made that shit up? lol...
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 03:30 PM
Hmmm. Define Common Sense? What makes it common? A majority of people think X?
and i just told you. you think i made that shit up? lol...
Huh ? I don't see how that says anything about you using the bible to teach something.
Hmmm. Define Common Sense? What makes it common? A majority of people think X?
Common sense tells you you might get hit by a car if you don't look both ways.
It's not common sense that tells you dwarfs exist, that's belief.
jayleew
10-29-08, 03:33 PM
well, it just seems like so many times people talk about god as if he's some human, or an old dude wheeling planets and lightning bolts around in the sky, and like what he does is magic, and i don't think that he's anything remotely like that and i don't believe in magic.
How can someone believe in God, yet not magic? If you believe God exists, what do you call extraoridnary events that are supposedly the act of God?
I define magic as a paranormal event and a paranormal event as anything outside the normal laws of physics.
But, I don't believe in magic or the paranormal, so I don't believe in God. I find it interesting to entertain the ideas of these things, but still don't believe.
Huh ? I don't see how that says anything about you using the bible to teach something.
OOOHHHH. no, not ME using the bible to teach something, but the holy spirit of god using the bible to teach me something. he's used the bible and lots of other things, including people and art...music...this forum. but it's all biblical, or relating to the bible. it's been like an interactive experience with me, and i think that it's supposed to be that way for everyone, not just some textbook.
jayleew
10-29-08, 03:36 PM
This Christian Bible is generally a book filled with ethics, rhetoric, other philosophies, and myths. It teaches a way to live your life.
OOOHHHH. no, not ME using the bible to teach something, but the holy spirit of god using the bible to teach me something. he's used the bible and lots of other things, including people and art...music...this forum. but it's all biblical, or relating to the bible. it's been like an interactive experience with me, and i think that it's supposed to be that way for everyone, not just some textbook.
Sorry, but the holy spirit is not reading the bible to you at bedtime, right ?
YOU are reading the bible. And YOU interpret it.
This Christian Bible is generally a book filled with ethics, rhetoric, other philosophies, and myths. It teaches a way to live your life.
Yea, but you don't need the bible for that.
jayleew
10-29-08, 03:44 PM
True, but it is a unique collection of value to a select group of people who are not able to define a system of morals and beliefs themselves. Not completely new (some of it is even copied), but it is a different way of life that some people need, and others shouldn't have.
How can someone believe in God, yet not magic? If you believe God exists, what do you call extraoridnary events that are supposedly the act of God?
I define magic as a paranormal event and a paranormal event as anything outside the normal laws of physics.
But, I don't believe in magic or the paranormal, so I don't believe in God. I find it interesting to entertain the ideas of these things, but still don't believe.
nothing is outside the law. we just haven't discovered or understand all of it.
Sorry, but the holy spirit is not reading the bible to you at bedtime, right ?
YOU are reading the bible. And YOU interpret it.
i sure as hell did not get those ideas from just reading the bible. it's been so much more complicated and trippy than that. dude, i've had some fucked up experiences. some that just about caused me to lose my mind. ok, that did, but those experiences served a purpose, i'm a lot better off for it now, and it is also obvious to me that what i've experienced is validated in the scripture.
:eek:
jayleew
10-29-08, 03:49 PM
nothing is outside the law. we just haven't discovered or understand all of it.
I think I get your gist, but I don't like the term "law" to describe it. The word "law" invokes words like rigid, black and white, and undead.
I have to be careful because people are so sensitive and the double standard of this site is unbelievable. The reason I believe in the bible is that I have a different perception. The bible says that the useless god (notice the small g) of christianity did it all in six days but science clearly refutes that. Later it goes on to say that to God (notice the big G) a day is like a thousand years. Nowhere does it say exactly a thousand years (as christians perceive) so it could be a million years. According to what I perceive by the scripture, God isn't bound by time and that God grew the world. Now I'm not going to write everyone of my conceptions because I neither care enough nor have the time but that same bible states that the children of God (christians) will not see the kingdom of God, and as far as people's understanding of the bible (or what the less intelligent refer to as the babble),it clearly states that God will send them strong delusion that they will believe the lie (christianity) that they all may be condemned. At the end of the day what's more important, knowing how it came about or discovering how to maintain it for future generations, because from what I'm seeing on the news, the latter doesn't seem to likely to me. If you're of the belief that some great and mighty wonder is going to come out of the sky and save our ass, have at it, but personally I don't think so:shrug:
I think I get your gist, but I don't like the term "law" to describe it. The word "law" invokes words like rigid, black and white, and undead.
i'm not sure if i understand the undead part, but yeah, rigid, black and white.
people have always thought law to be the works of "gods" or magic before it was discovered and understood. you know, there are many people including myself and many scientists who the more they learn about the law, the more they believe in a higher source or a god. what do some call it?...intelligence.
I have to be careful because people are so sensitive and the double standard of this site is unbelievable. The reason I believe in the bible is that I have a different perception. The bible says that the useless god (notice the small g) of christianity did it all in six days but science clearly refutes that. Later it goes on to say that to God (notice the big G) a day is like a thousand years. Nowhere does it say exactly a thousand years (as christians perceive) so it could be a million years. According to what I perceive by the scripture, God isn't bound by time and that God grew the world. Now I'm not going to write everyone of my conceptions because I neither care enough nor have the time but that same bible states that the children of God (christians) will not see the kingdom of God, and as far as people's understanding of the bible (or what the less intelligent refer to as the babble),it clearly states that God will send them strong delusion that they will believe the lie (christianity) that they all may be condemned. At the end of the day what's more important, knowing how it came about or discovering how to maintain it for future generations, because from what I'm seeing on the news, the latter doesn't seem to likely to me. If you're of the belief that some great and mighty wonder is going to come out of the sky and save our ass, have at it, but personally I don't think so:shrug:
nicely put. :)
Lori, would you care to share a little about your experiences, maybe the jist of them?
jayleew
10-29-08, 04:10 PM
it clearly states that God will send them strong delusion that they will believe the lie (christianity) that they all may be condemned. At the end of the day what's more important, knowing how it came about or discovering how to maintain it for future generations, because from what I'm seeing on the news, the latter doesn't seem to likely to me. If you're of the belief that some great and mighty wonder is going to come out of the sky and save our ass, have at it, but personally I don't think so:shrug:
Hamtastic, pull out the book of 2nd Thessalonians. Azriel started off good, but has muffed this up badly. What the bible clearly states is:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It's referring to the anti-christ, some dude who tries to assume godhood, and that's when everyone in the world say he's full of shit and declare war on him, standing united by a common enemy....beautiful.
But, Azriel gets on track again...it says in Revelations that God will come down and end the war....and it won't be pretty for anyone left unless you are a Jew....the only ones who still have a chance to set things striaight.
I'm merely correcting Azriel so we have it straight, this stuff won't happen because there is no God...and if there is, the Bible is not accurate because it is a muffed up version, and was written mostly by a few folks.
Lori, would you care to share a little about your experiences, maybe the jist of them?
well, it's hard to sum it all up. when it was most intense, i thought it was my duty to share them, describe them, interpret them to everyone. so i set out to write a book, and it was too much...too complicated, and compounding. i know now that it's not really my responsibility to do that and what happened to me happened for a reason, there have been all sorts of witnesses, and the reason will be shown. the jist of them, or the purpose of them so far, and for me, has been to reveal what i have just described regarding sin, the purpose of it, and the purification of it by a perfected bloodline. it seems very davinci code to me...the secret of the holy grail...the perfected blood of christ into a body, which is his bride, the church. this is describing a genetic change for a race of people...a new generation of humanity...an introduction to eternal life perhaps. this revelation came to me via spiritual interactions of various sorts.
Thank You. Sorry to pick apart your posts, but what do you mean when you say you don't believe in magic?
I think the bible should teach the truth.
It was set up for the central establishment of moral authority.
The word of god was an oral tradition invented by mythology so humans could make sense of what is right and what is wrong and who should make these decisions.
The problem is when you are made to believe the mythology as literal fact. The early theologies where of the idea, that humans/we are incapable of making moral judgments. So invented a central authority figure above the authority of human beings.
The priests and worshipers saw injustice in how there fellow man could be so cruel and evil. And asked the question, “why”, as all thinking people do. The paradox is good and evil is a subjective question. Often there are many grey areas and who should draw the line in the sand and create the laws to govern them, who sets the laws in stone.
For Instance, is “the predator” a good thing or a bad thing? From the victims point of view the predator is evil, always seeking to kill you. From the Animals point of view it needs to consume to survive, so it is doing good. Humans tend to take the view of the victim and the predator only seeks good for him self. This is mythology in action and you could write a fictitious novel about it, which creative humans like to do
Now we know that predation is what drove the evolution of plants and animals. So if you could place your mind in a god perspective, predation is neither good nor evil. And from this "enlightenment of knowledge" we would say it is good or we would not have evolved into existence.
So if you imagine removing your point of view from the eyes of men, an independent observer, you can get insight into the “god idea”.
I theorize that when humans became consciously aware, was the time we saw the reflection of our selves and said, “That is me”. And to do that you had to subjectively view your self from a different perspective.
Just like when a child sees them self in a mirror and for the first time recognizes them selves as an individual.
So now if you view the bible as non-literal you can understand how the story is the messenger to wisdom. My argument is that wisdom needs to remain organic, new knowledge brings new perspective. So morals need a mechanic to shift with the presiding forces of the time. What was good/bad 2000 years ago may not be a good/bad thing forever.
Thank You. Sorry to pick apart your posts, but what do you mean when you say you don't believe in magic?
that's ok, you're welcome. i just mean that there's law behind everything. a scientific explanation for everything, whether we've discovered it yet or not.
so i don't think god works outside the law, we just don't always understand how it works, or what he is even. nothing is supernatural, just not understood.
fuck morals. morals are man-made, and their way of controlling and judging each other.
that's ok, you're welcome. i just mean that there's law behind everything. a scientific explanation for everything, whether we've discovered it yet or not.
so i don't think god works outside the law, we just don't always understand how it works, or what he is even. nothing is supernatural, just not understood.
Thanks for explaining that.
fuck morals. morals are man-made, and their way of controlling and judging each other.
those who judge lack understanding, that my judgement.
Lori, what about post 36 ?
Edit: Sorry, I'm the one that missed a post :o
Hammy, how you gettin' your butt kicked in your own thread?! I thought I knew you better than that!
Mr. Hamtastic
10-29-08, 08:28 PM
Wow. I go away for awhile, and the thread goes screeching off course. I'll pause, then bring in chapter 2. The pause? My belief is simple. I believe God is Jesus is Holy Spirit. I believe Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice, choosing to die to be a blood covering for our sins. I believe God wants to have beings capable of dreaming to hang out with, Angels being his nondreaming, though powerful servants. The rest of all of it, to me, is polish. Nice stuff, but not necessarily true. I don't think Job is literally true, along with a bunch of OT stuff. I don't believe that I have to believe in anything except what I have stated, with the exception of the bit about angels, and our purpose. Just so you kitties know where I'm coming from. :D
I have to be careful because people are so sensitive and the double standard of this site is unbelievable.
Wot?
The reason I believe in the bible is that I have a different perception.
LSD does that.
The bible says that the useless god (notice the small g) of christianity did it all in six days but science clearly refutes that.
YAY Literalism!
Later it goes on to say that to God (notice the big G) a day is like a thousand years. Nowhere does it say exactly a thousand years (as christians perceive) so it could be a million years.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8
According to what I perceive by the scripture, God isn't bound by time and that God grew the world.
Grew it? Hydroponics?
Now I'm not going to write everyone of my conceptions because I neither care enough nor have the time but that same bible states that the children of God (christians) will not see the kingdom of God, and as far as people's understanding of the bible (or what the less intelligent refer to as the babble),it clearly states that God will send them strong delusion that they will believe the lie (christianity) that they all may be condemned.
Dude... Blue Acid is seldom safe. Ease up. Is any of this biblical? O)r are you just making it up as you go along?
At the end of the day what's more important, knowing how it came about or discovering how to maintain it for future generations, because from what I'm seeing on the news, the latter doesn't seem to likely to me. If you're of the belief that some great and mighty wonder is going to come out of the sky and save our ass, have at it, but personally I don't think so:shrug:
What are you on? Is it legal? Will you share? :bugeye:
Hamtastic, pull out the book of 2nd Thessalonians. Azriel started off good, but has muffed this up badly. What the bible clearly states is:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
It's referring to the anti-christ, some dude who tries to assume godhood, and that's when everyone in the world say he's full of shit and declare war on him, standing united by a common enemy....beautiful.
But, Azriel gets on track again...it says in Revelations that God will come down and end the war....and it won't be pretty for anyone left unless you are a Jew....the only ones who still have a chance to set things striaight.
I'm merely correcting Azriel so we have it straight, this stuff won't happen because there is no God...and if there is, the Bible is not accurate because it is a muffed up version, and was written mostly by a few folks.
what are you on about? azriel is a grade A nutcase. We'll Get to Thess and Rev in due time.
I think the bible should teach the truth.
It was set up for the central establishment of moral authority.
It was not.
The word of god was an oral tradition invented by mythology so humans could make sense of what is right and what is wrong and who should make these decisions.
So... God is mythology, right? Just want to make sure I get you.
The problem is when you are made to believe the mythology as literal fact. The early theologies where of the idea, that humans/we are incapable of making moral judgments. So invented a central authority figure above the authority of human beings.
Ok, so God is an invention, and is mythology? I take it you've studied some phonecian(sp?) and Sumerian religious texts, right?
The priests and worshipers saw injustice in how there fellow man could be so cruel and evil. And asked the question, “why”, as all thinking people do. The paradox is good and evil is a subjective question. Often there are many grey areas and who should draw the line in the sand and create the laws to govern them, who sets the laws in stone.
Wait...WoG invented as oral tradition because man couldn't tell right from wrong... Then the priests and worshippers saw injustice? So Man invents something to judge man by so man can judge man.... Tell me if I'm wrong, please.
took out some useless nonsense
So if you imagine removing your point of view from the eyes of men, an independent observer, you can get insight into the “god idea”.
Isn't there a rule somewhere that no object can take an exact measurement of itself? Thought I read that somewhere. So the guy who said,"I know! Let's have a God!" was objective, then?
I theorize that when humans became consciously aware, was the time we saw the reflection of our selves and said, “That is me”. And to do that you had to subjectively view your self from a different perspective.
nonsense. A different perspective is not what you have implied thus far. You are saying Man made God to judge Man by. That's man attempting the objective perspective.
more nonsense. I got kids. They know they are themselves when they squirt out, and maybe before.
So now if you view the bible as non-literal you can understand how the story is the messenger to wisdom. My argument is that wisdom needs to remain organic, new knowledge brings new perspective. So morals need a mechanic to shift with the presiding forces of the time. What was good/bad 2000 years ago may not be a good/bad thing forever.
Yawn. Damned foolishness, literally. Wait-You're saying that it's ok to kill your brother out of Jealousy now? YAY! <goes to get sharp objects>
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen002.htm
Enough of all that... Chapter 2. Try to keep the madness to a minimum, try to keep it on topic. Let me know if posting the whole chapter would make doing these things easier, 'k?
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground
This one is interesting, I think. Could there have been giant aquifers or something to cause this? Maybe pressured by magma? I dunno, Plate Tectonics weird me out, anyway.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates
Like a prehistoric address book. "Hang a left at Mabel's Barn, It's yeller, hard to miss"
If I set aside things for a moment and consider it, doesn't this place Eden in the middle of the sahara? Or am I backwards, and it's in the black sea? Then I gather my stuff together and say, nah, probably pretend. Still, be cool to meet the guardian, but we'll get to that.
Just some foreshadowing... Tricky how Adam gets the command about the tree, then God makes Eve. I wonder if Adam ever made things clear to her about the stupid tree?
obviously your acid is so much better than mine. I would tell you what I think of you but I'm the only one that gets banned for hate talk, maybe because I'm not a cry baby like some of you people, but I'm sure that you could guess what I'd like to tell you to kiss
Read Matthew chapters 7-8. Matt. 8:11,12
Many will come from the East and the West and sit at the feast in the kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and then the subjects of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I don't know what church you're going to but that doesn't sound saved to me.
Mr. Hamtastic
choosing to die to be a blood covering for our sins
Blood sacrifice is evil.
Blood sacrifice is evil.
Not according to the Holy Bible.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 05:39 AM
azriel-34 posts and banned. VERY interesting. Are there any currently banned atheists? Just curious whose sock you are.
swarm-see enmos's post
enmos-that's right.
Spud Emperor
10-30-08, 05:41 AM
Are there any currently banned atheists?
Sure, they just can't believe it.
jayleew
10-30-08, 08:16 AM
Read Matthew chapters 7-8. Matt. 8:11,12
Many will come from the East and the West and sit at the feast in the kingdom with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and then the subjects of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. I don't know what church you're going to but that doesn't sound saved to me.
11 And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. 12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
Jesus says that many Gentiles will make it into heaven, but many Israelites will be thrown in "hell". Not "the subjects of the kingdom"
Bottom line, in context Jesus is saying that many people who the world thought were unworthy of heaven will be worthy. And on the other side of the coin, many people who the world thought were worthy of heaven will be unworthy. In other words, don't judge because most people don't know shit.
Not according to the Holy Bible.
how about vampirism? you know...communion.
jayleew
10-30-08, 08:32 AM
how about vampirism? you know...communion.
What, are you joking? :D
how about vampirism? you know...communion.
What ? :bugeye:
no, i'm not joking. you know, drinking the blood of christ...the blood goes into the cup, i think is representative of the body of christ, his church. i don't really know how christ's blood will get into his bride, but the religious ceremony of communion seems vampiristic.
no, i'm not joking. you know, drinking the blood of christ...the blood goes into the cup, i think is representative of the body of christ, his church. i don't really know how christ's blood will get into his bride, but the religious ceremony of communion seems vampiristic.
Do they actually drink blood ? No.
So how is it vampiristic ?
jayleew
10-30-08, 08:49 AM
no, i'm not joking. you know, drinking the blood of christ...the blood goes into the cup, i think is representative of the body of christ, his church. i don't really know how christ's blood will get into his bride, but the religious ceremony of communion seems vampiristic.
If you read the Bible, you would know that Jesus asked the disciples to perform this ritual in memory of him. Jesus knew he was going to die, and used the bread and wine as representations, only as a euphamism. The point he was hoping people would remember is not of drinking blood, but of receiving salvation by his sacrifice of blood.
Communion is performed, not to drink a represented cup of blood, but a cup of salvation through the blood of Christ. You are taking "this is my blood..." out of context and too literally. Jesus hardly spoke straight up.
Now, I might agree with your point if you said God was a vampire, because it is written that God demands the sacrifice of blood to erase sin.
well, this is what i think...
the cup (the holy grail) is a vessel. the body is a vessel. the body of christ also means the church. the church is his bride. i think that the communion ritual represents a time when the perfected blood of christ will enter the body of christ (his church) and this will perpetuate an eternal millenial kingdom of our lord jesus. it's the secret of the holy grail.
Do they actually drink blood ? No.
So how is it vampiristic ?
well, based upon my post above, don't you think that the ritual of communion has vampiristic overtones? especially when the outcome is eternal life? think about it for a minute. it definitely does. so then, is vampirism evil? even if i didn't bring up this whole holy grail theory, to say that it is, is really arbitrary.
I think it is nonsense. It's just symbolism.
And vampires don't exist..
Unless you are talking about these critters:
http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/vampire-bat.jpg
jayleew
10-30-08, 09:05 AM
well, this is what i think...
the cup (the holy grail) is a vessel. the body is a vessel. the body of christ also means the church. the church is his bride. i think that the communion ritual represents a time when the perfected blood of christ will enter the body of christ (his church) and this will perpetuate an eternal millenial kingdom of our lord jesus. it's the secret of the holy grail.
interesting...in context of scripture, communion is not that, but if Jesus were alive today, he'd probably agree with you.
This is one reason I don't think modern Christianity is on track, and makes me think either the Bible is wrong and right and God exists, or God doesn't exist and the Bible is just mythological. From my experience, I choose the latter.
I think it is nonsense. It's just symbolism.
And vampires don't exist..
Unless you are talking about these critters:
http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/staticfiles/NGS/Shared/StaticFiles/animals/images/primary/vampire-bat.jpg
you can't verify that. and symbolism is supposed to mean something. i don't think that the ceremony of communion is meaningless. it represents a means of bringing the communion that we had with god in the garden of eden back.
it's why he gave us a christ. to restore that relationship.
interesting...in context of scripture, communion is not that, but if Jesus were alive today, he'd probably agree with you.
This is one reason I don't think modern Christianity is on track, and makes me think either the Bible is wrong and right and God exists, or God doesn't exist and the Bible is just mythological. From my experience, I choose the latter.
yeah, i think that for the purpose of malintent, people have used the bible for a religion, not for what it's meant. and even those with good intentions have closed minds. ever since christ died the religious have tried to own him, and i dare say they are in for a rude awakening upon his return. ha ha i can't wait.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 09:28 AM
wait-so communion is vampirism and cannibalism, literally. bread and grape juice/wine just never made that jump for me. Sitting down and having communion, in memory of his blood shed for you, and eating the bread, in memory of his body broken for you, doesn't induce thoughts of eating and drinking Jesus, literally. Besides, I thought this was at the end of the sabbath day feast, something no churches I know of celebrate, sadly. This is called "majoring in the minors". If you believe the basics, and lump the grail on top of everything, then I'd say this belief is innocuous. If you believe the basics, but only if it's all vampiric cannibalism, then you may want to meditate on what the bible says more, and not so much on speculation.
you can't verify that. and symbolism is supposed to mean something. i don't think that the ceremony of communion is meaningless. it represents a means of bringing the communion that we had with god in the garden of eden back.
it's why he gave us a christ. to restore that relationship.
I can't verify what ? That vampires don't exist ?
You can't verify that they do exist either.
More creatures who's non-existence can't be verified are:
Fairies
Chupacabra
Yeti
And countless more.
Should I believe in all of them ?
I can't verify what ? That vampires don't exist ?
You can't verify that they do exist either.
More creatures who's non-existence can't be verified are:
Fairies
Chupacabra
Yeti
And countless more.
Should I believe in all of them ?
no, you just can't say that they don't exist because you don't know for sure.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 09:36 AM
A first cause doesn't have to be anything particularly meaningful. I don't know how my car works, but something must bring it to life, and I will call that thing the Key. Well, everyone knows the key is just incidental to how an internal combustion engine works.
this analogy bears no resemblance to the simple and obvious argument that everything which has a beginning has a cause. The existance of an automobile bears testimony to its beginning. It was designed and created by an intelligent source, so was the key.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 09:40 AM
Enmos-there are those who believe that communion is the method to salvation, which is no sillier, to me, to believing that no-one is saved without being dunked in water, which is a quiet belief of a large protestant portion of christianity. Lori tastes like something close to catholicism, to me, though. Catholics believe many interesting things which I don't attempt to understand. If they believe that some ritual is required of them for salvation, so be it. Not a burden I can dance with, myself.
No comments on chapter 2? Where are the atheists? Adam's father was dirt. Nobody caught that? Eden as a historical place? No rains, just mist from the Earth? Eve is Adam's rib? It begs to be picked apart. How disappointing.
Skinwalker-Give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime. If you didn't like me seperating each post individually, tell me what would be better, and how to do it. The last 2 posts could have joined, but they were absolutely seperate from the previous three, which could have joined. Sometimes I think of things later, ya know?
wait-so communion is vampirism and cannibalism, literally. bread and grape juice/wine just never made that jump for me. Sitting down and having communion, in memory of his blood shed for you, and eating the bread, in memory of his body broken for you, doesn't induce thoughts of eating and drinking Jesus, literally. Besides, I thought this was at the end of the sabbath day feast, something no churches I know of celebrate, sadly. This is called "majoring in the minors". If you believe the basics, and lump the grail on top of everything, then I'd say this belief is innocuous. If you believe the basics, but only if it's all vampiric cannibalism, then you may want to meditate on what the bible says more, and not so much on speculation.
i think that the bible is kind of "layered" in that i believe it can have different meanings to different people at different times regarding different things. the same scripture can have various different meanings and reveal various things to various people at various times, and that all of those things are true, even though they are not the same at all. in the case of communion, i would think that there is a meaning regarding end times events that is very different from the meaning regarding the crucifixion that took place two thousand years ago.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 09:44 AM
mynameisdan-check out chaos theory sometime. spooky stuff. tornado hits junkyard, leave behind a perfect, unpainted, functioning 747. Chances are slim, but they exist. If the chance is less than 1 in infinity, then it becomes a good probability if time and space are infinite. If God made man from mud, what the hell are we doing with a poison sack in our abdomen, waiting to go off? Kill switch?
no, you just can't say that they don't exist because you don't know for sure.
lol ok then :rolleyes:
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 09:51 AM
Lori-endtimes events... At least let me get to Daniel or Matthew or Revelation for that. God will end things as he chooses, and things will mean what He meant them to. Our rightness or wrongness will be secondary. There are proponents of different heavenly rewards for different people, based on the talents parable and such, I'm not one of them. I just want to get to Heaven. I don't care if I shovel horseshit all day everyday for eternity. I'll just be trying to catch up with JC for the occasional Latte, maybe me and him can jam out to some awesome music. I'm just not stressing endtimes yet, hon. I'll try to when this thread gets there. If you want to do the endtimes tango now, however, how about a new thread, some references, and I'll come happily talk about things to come with you there.
No thoughts on Genesis Chapter 2, then?
Lori-endtimes events... At least let me get to Daniel or Matthew or Revelation for that. God will end things as he chooses, and things will mean what He meant them to. Our rightness or wrongness will be secondary. There are proponents of different heavenly rewards for different people, based on the talents parable and such, I'm not one of them. I just want to get to Heaven. I don't care if I shovel horseshit all day everyday for eternity. I'll just be trying to catch up with JC for the occasional Latte, maybe me and him can jam out to some awesome music. I'm just not stressing endtimes yet, hon. I'll try to when this thread gets there. If you want to do the endtimes tango now, however, how about a new thread, some references, and I'll come happily talk about things to come with you there.
No thoughts on Genesis Chapter 2, then?
my thoughts are..."on earth as it is in heaven". eternal life, communion with god, knowledge of good and evil, and a conscious choice to abide by his law.
Looks like things can get a little odd down there in Virginia.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:13 AM
John-They say Virginia ia for Lovers. In reality, we're just a bunch of fruits and nuts around here. :D
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:18 AM
OK. I guess I'll go get chapter 3, then.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen003.htm
Give this a read. I want to see if the same stuff gets you that gets me.
On a side note, anyone else notice that all animals and humans were supposed to be herbivores, a la Chapter 1?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:19 AM
You might have to reference chapter 2 to get a handle on what happened with the "original sin"
OK. I guess I'll go get chapter 3, then.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen003.htm
Give this a read. I want to see if the same stuff gets you that gets me.
On a side note, anyone else notice that all animals and humans were supposed to be herbivores, a la Chapter 1?
if i'm not mistaken people weren't "supposed" to eat meat until after the flood.
i'm a pescitarian. :)
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 10:26 AM
mynameisdan-check out chaos theory sometime. spooky stuff. tornado hits junkyard, leave behind a perfect, unpainted, functioning 747. Chances are slim, but they exist. If the chance is less than 1 in infinity, then it becomes a good probability if time and space are infinite. If God made man from mud, what the hell are we doing with a poison sack in our abdomen, waiting to go off? Kill switch?
the tornado creating a jumbo jet from junk was penned by Sir Fred Hoyle as a complete reversal of his former view that abiogenesis was possible. It is not possible and Hoyle demonstrated this convincinly in this 1983 book The Intelligent Universe. Hoyle did not embrace Christianity but he did reject atheism because the facts do not support it. Of course the last Century's foremost atheist heavy weight philosopher Dr. Antony Flew has also flown the atheist coup.
The point of course is that highly improble events like abiogenesis are not saved by time and an infinite universe. They are simply impossible based upon ALL of the available scientific evidence we have today. Miller Urey experiments were complete failures and all thinking people know this. From all we know, the bibles assertion that "In the beginning, God Created the Heavens and the Earth", is still the best explanation we have for the origin of the Universe and life on earth.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:29 AM
Foreshadowing again-Thought that was upon tossing them out of the garden. Didn't Abel's sheep go for food?
We'll be there before you know it. It's hard to restrain yourself, ya know?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:35 AM
pescitarian-yay seafood, boo other meat? Interesting.
Anyone notice Eve's misquotation of what God said?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:38 AM
mynameisDan-infinity is bigger than you think. I'm of the opinion that our expanding universe is decidedly finite, thus things become impossible at some point. Chances of us figuring out where that really is? Slim to none, given that time is probably not infinite either.
I don't believe that I have to believe in anything except what I have stated, with the exception of the bit about angels, and our purpose. Just so you kitties know where I'm coming from.
Yes, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. Clearly, your statement should then be, "I don't believe that I have to believe in anything except what suits my agenda."
Hence, your imagination and the sky are the limit to your beliefs, and to hell with Christianity. Typical. :rolleyes:
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 10:49 AM
mynameisDan-infinity is bigger than you think. I'm of the opinion that our expanding universe is decidedly finite, thus things become impossible at some point. Chances of us figuring out where that really is? Slim to none, given that time is probably not infinite either.
Time is not infinite. The point is that known science (not conjecture) supports the law of biogenesis, Life only comes from prexisting life. This is exactly what the bible teaches. God created life, not time and chance.
pescitarian-yay seafood, boo other meat? Interesting.
Anyone notice Eve's misquotation of what God said?
it doesn't seem like we're as cruel to sea creatures as we are to other animals for consumption prior to slaughter. seems like they have a better life and it's not so commercialized (generally). what we do to animals on this planet is fucking sick. then again, what we do to the oceans to get our seafood is pretty sick too. what we do to the land to get our veggies. you gotta draw the line somewhere i suppose. protest everything and you die.
sorry, off topic a bit.
she was rationalizing.
Time is not infinite. The point is that known science (not conjecture) supports the law of biogenesis, Life only comes from prexisting life. This is exactly what the bible teaches. God created life, not time and chance.
So, you believe the bible word for word? What parts don't you believe and why?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 10:59 AM
Q-Thanks for your FASCINATING input. What would we do without you. :)
Dan-Biogenesis-Life from life, abiogenesis-life from no life, right? Which one is man out of dirt, woman out of rib. I thought God's big thing was "making something from nothing since infinity and beyond"
Lori-I'm all for the circle of life. Veggies grow fom dirt. Livestock eats veggies. I eat Livestock. I become dirt. Thus, the veggies used me, and I don't eat things that use me.
back to topic
God didn't tell her specifically, Adam did. I'm sure you have had some guy explain something to you which he thought was of little notice, and you found out later it was vital. Adam was kind of dumb about that whole exchange.
Lori-I'm all for the circle of life. Veggies grow fom dirt. Livestock eats veggies. I eat Livestock. I become dirt. Thus, the veggies used me, and I don't eat things that use me.
Except the veggies of course :D
Enmos, have you ever eaten a broiled Lobster with no butter?
Q-Thanks for your FASCINATING input. What would we do without you.
You're unable to respond, because it's a description of your beliefs. Anytime. :D
Enmos, have you ever eaten a broiled Lobster with no butter?
I don't think so, why ?
Lori-I'm all for the circle of life. Veggies grow fom dirt. Livestock eats veggies. I eat Livestock. I become dirt. Thus, the veggies used me, and I don't eat things that use me.
me too. i just don't like the abuse. we don't have to abuse and waste and pollute and disrespect. i protest that with my diet. now if someone were to hunt down an animal that had a nice life prior to the hunt and killed it to eat, then i would have no problem with that. then again, i'm not keen on killing...
:shrug:
i don't know! i don't know! a raw vegan diet cures diabetes you know...for real. there's a documentary out right now called raw for 30 days. check it.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 11:28 AM
Just so every one knows... Q has a hard time thinking of original things. Thus, he demands that all holy books are literal, that he might argue against them better. He's cute when he's blustery like this. Be careful, he might get mad and start typing in ALL CAPS. That will show them, right, Q? Everything he has said in this thread has had 1 part truth 20 parts insult. Don't take him seriously enough to get involved in actual discussion. My advice, every time he offends you with nonsense insults, put him on ignore until you feel better.
Just so every one knows... Q has a hard time thinking of original things. Thus, he demands that all holy books are literal, that he might argue against them better. He's cute when he's blustery like this. Be careful, he might get mad and start typing in ALL CAPS. That will show them, right, Q? Everything he has said in this thread has had 1 part truth 20 parts insult. Don't take him seriously enough to get involved in actual discussion. My advice, every time he offends you with nonsense insults, put him on ignore until you feel better.
Q is the only person in over a decade of discussions here that i've ever put on ignore, and he remains there. i tried, and i gave up. :shrug:
Just so every one knows... Q has a hard time thinking of original things. Thus, he demands that all holy books are literal, that he might argue against them better. He's cute when he's blustery like this. Be careful, he might get mad and start typing in ALL CAPS. That will show them, right, Q? Everything he has said in this thread has had 1 part truth 20 parts insult. Don't take him seriously enough to get involved in actual discussion. My advice, every time he offends you with nonsense insults, put him on ignore until you feel better.
I don't see your point, Hammy. It's clear to anyone that your beliefs have nothing to do with Christianity or the bible but are instead fantasies you've created based on kindergarten fairy tales.
So, why bother?
Q...honey...i can't read what you just wrote. lol...
Q is the only person in over a decade of discussions here that i've ever put on ignore, and he remains there. i tried, and i gave up.
The more they believe in their god fantasies, the more they ignore. :rolleyes:
Q...honey...i can't read what you just wrote. lol...
Try going to school.
*giggle*
you're much more entertaining and funny this way. XO
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 12:22 PM
so, anything else on chapter 3? If not, I'm surprised. Original sin tends to be a BIG DEAL to a lot of people. I'm surprised that some of the more recent attendees to the thread haven't used this opportunity to let us all know exactly how christians are supposed to believe each verse.
Thus, he demands that all holy books are literal, that he might argue against them better.
Clearly, Ham is lying to make his less than ill-informed point. I don't demand anything at all, which I've told you time and again, but I think you're ignorance to that is probably related to your meds, or you're just incredibly ignorant.
It is plain to anyone who has read the bible that gods commands are to be obeyed. As a non-believer, even that is blatantly obvious. But, since you base your entire beliefs on kindergarten fairy tales, rather than the bible which you most likely haven't even opened, it's little wonder you're so ill informed.
The rest of your post is infantile gibberish and not worthy a response.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 12:25 PM
Lori-It comes across as far more open-minded and intelligent, too. For fun, Respond to whatever question you wish had been asked, and apply it to Q. Q-Good Question. I guess Unicorns and dragons are possible, biblically. It doesn't seem to specify.
See? Wasn't that fun?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 12:27 PM
Q-No, the talking Donkey is much later.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 12:32 PM
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen004.htm
genesis Chapter 4. The procreation begins...
so, anything else on chapter 3? If not, I'm surprised. Original sin tends to be a BIG DEAL to a lot of people. I'm surprised that some of the more recent attendees to the thread haven't used this opportunity to let us all know exactly how christians are supposed to believe each verse.
as much as it sucks to suffer, and it certainly does, i think it's served a great purpose for those of us who think so and are willing to learn and to repent. i think a time will come when the curse will be removed, and we'll be restored, and it would be nice if we didn't have to make the same mistake again right?
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 12:40 PM
So, you believe the bible word for word? What parts don't you believe and why?
I don't believe when Jesus said that "I am the door" that he literally meant he was a slab of wood swinging on two hinges. I understand that the bible includes metaphors, poetry and other literary devices. What I believe is that bible is historically accurrate and divinely inspired. I accept its view on astronomy, geology, biology as well as history.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 12:47 PM
I think most of genesis falls into the "stories told around the fire" category, myself. God may have inspired some or all of them, but I have written plenty of sappy poetry inspired by flowers. It was nice, and superficially accurate, but not really so much. Original sin-to me, is a story. A baby is not born sinful. The day the baby can put together concepts of good and not good, and chooses to do not good, it's innocence is gone. To me, it's all about transgression done deliberately and willfully. "I know God wants me to stay away from the tree, or that's what I've been told, but this guy has a point, and knowledge is always good, right?" That's chapter 3 in a nutshell to me.
I don't believe when Jesus said that "I am the door" that he literally meant he was a slab of wood swinging on two hinges. I understand that the bible includes metaphors, poetry and other literary devices. What I believe is that bible is historically accurrate and divinely inspired. I accept its view on astronomy, geology, biology as well as history.
Then, you are as clearly hypocritical as any other pseudo-Christian who decides whatever they want to believe as opposed to what their god commands them to believe.
I think most of genesis falls into the "stories told around the fire" category, myself. God may have inspired some or all of them, but I have written plenty of sappy poetry inspired by flowers. It was nice, and superficially accurate, but not really so much. Original sin-to me, is a story. A baby is not born sinful. The day the baby can put together concepts of good and not good, and chooses to do not good, it's innocence is gone. To me, it's all about transgression done deliberately and willfully. "I know God wants me to stay away from the tree, or that's what I've been told, but this guy has a point, and knowledge is always good, right?" That's chapter 3 in a nutshell to me.
To you, it's about what you want to believe and not what you're supposed to believe, yes, we know.
Q-No, the talking Donkey is much later.
What about the talking snake?
To you, it's about what you want to believe and not what you're supposed to believe, yes, we know.
In all fairness, that's true of 99.9% of theists. And that's ignoring that there are multiple different religions, some of which are similar but not quite the same.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 12:58 PM
Then, you are as clearly hypocritical as any other pseudo-Christian who decides whatever they want to believe as opposed to what their god commands them to believe.
I don't understand this comment in light of what I stated. I believe all of the bible, but I understand that not all parts of the bible are meant literally. Genesis 1 is meant to be understood literally, as are chapters 2 and 3. But there is poetry in the psalms that is not literal as well as some of the statements of the prophets and Jesus himself.
In all fairness, that's true of 99.9% of theists. And that's ignoring all the different religions.
Of course, their hypocrisy is limitless. That's why this thread is pointless.
In all fairness, that's true of 99.9% of theists. And that's ignoring that there are multiple different religions, some of which are similar but not quite the same.
So atheists believe what they don't want to believe or what they are forced to believe?
also, we don't have the knowledge, experience, and understanding that our future will bring. there is always the probability that what we learn tomorrow will have an effect on what we're trying to interpret today. i think that as far as the bible is concerned, it will all come full circle. we won't understand it completely until the bitter end. and the odds are that all of us won't understand all of it ever. i just don't think it's meant to be that way. i do though see a lot of parallels between the beginning of it (genesis), and the end of it (revelation). for example, the fall of man and the mark of the beast are a lot alike. both i believe to be genetic manipulations, and both induced by the same lie.
I don't understand this comment in light of what I stated. I believe all of the bible, but I understand that not all parts of the bible are meant literally. Genesis 1 is meant to be understood literally, as are chapters 2 and 3. But there is poetry in the psalms that is not literal as well as some of the statements of the prophets and Jesus himself.
It doesn't matter what you want to believe Dan, the bible and your god command you to believe in the bible. This isn't negotiable. Hell would be your end if you don't. Simple, really.
also, we don't have the knowledge, experience, and understanding that our future will bring.
So what? What does that have to do with believing in the bible?
there is always the probability that what we learn tomorrow will have an effect on what we're trying to interpret today.
There is nothing to interpret, the bible is clear in what you are supposed to believe. If you decide otherwise, you are not a Christian.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:05 PM
Enmos-It would be one thing if there was something which pointed to the bible and called it infallibly written. Besides Q, I mean. Maybe I could take him a little bit seriously. Even Q mistranslates verses, and takes them out of context to try and get his gigs in. But I digress.
Anyone have any thoughts on Chapter 4? Cain/Abel/Seth... Brotherly murder in the name of religion...
So atheists believe what they don't want to believe or what they are forced to believe?
What do you mean ?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:08 PM
not just murder... Cain lies to God about comitting the murder! Yet God does not kill Cain! Just kicks him eastward to the land of Nod. Why does the bible mention that turkey Lamech, at all?
Enmos-It would be one thing if there was something which pointed to the bible and called it infallibly written. Besides Q, I mean. Maybe I could take him a little bit seriously. Even Q mistranslates verses, and takes them out of context to try and get his gigs in.
You are a bold faced liar, Sir. How very non-Christian of you.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:13 PM
Q-How astute of you to observe, where'd the women come from? The bible mentions daughters, but genetics has shown that incest turns out poorly. Another reason I have trouble with genesis. Toss out morality pertaining to incest, if Adam and Eve were the first generation, Where did Cain get a wife from? Either a) Unmentioned humans existed, or B) what's closer than a wife, but a wife-sister?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:14 PM
Q-I promise to tell you all about Jericho, too. Just you wait.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 01:16 PM
I think most of genesis falls into the "stories told around the fire" category, myself. God may have inspired some or all of them, but I have written plenty of sappy poetry inspired by flowers. It was nice, and superficially accurate, but not really so much. Original sin-to me, is a story. A baby is not born sinful. The day the baby can put together concepts of good and not good, and chooses to do not good, it's innocence is gone. To me, it's all about transgression done deliberately and willfully. "I know God wants me to stay away from the tree, or that's what I've been told, but this guy has a point, and knowledge is always good, right?" That's chapter 3 in a nutshell to me.
Everyone must make a choice as to whether or not to believe the bible or not. Personally, I find the support for its historical narrative and divine inspiration convincing and feel no need to force another to my conclusions.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:17 PM
Just so everyone knows, I don't even have him on ignore anymore. I know he says I'm a bold faced liar, but I'm just insisting we stay within arm's reach of the topic at hand. You are welcome to start a thread abou me being a bold-faced liar, and give evidence of it, Q, but not here.
Everyone must make a choice as to whether or not to believe the bible or not. Personally, I find the support for its historical narrative and divine inspiration convincing and feel no need to force another to my conclusions.
You cannot decide what to believe and what not to believe in the bible, Dan, that is not a choice for you to make. It is a choice your god makes for you if you decide to worship him, and OBEY him.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:18 PM
Everyone must make a choice as to whether or not to believe the bible or not. Personally, I find the support for its historical narrative and divine inspiration convincing and feel no need to force another to my conclusions.
Good point. Can we be christians together anyway?
Just so everyone knows, I don't even have him on ignore anymore. I know he says I'm a bold faced liar, but I'm just insisting we stay within arm's reach of the topic at hand. You are welcome to start a thread abou me being a bold-faced liar, and give evidence of it, Q, but not here.
I will do so here with or without your permission. Bite me. :D
Anyone have any thoughts on Chapter 4? Cain/Abel/Seth... Brotherly murder in the name of religion...
well, it sure is relevant.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 01:20 PM
What do you mean ?
He means that everyone utimately believes what they wish to, even atheists. However, and these are my comments, atheists believe what is most assuredly, false.
Good point. Can we be christians together anyway?
No, you are not a Christian. You are a pseudo-wannabe-Christian. Once you start obeying your god, then you'll be a Christian.
He means that everyone utimately believes what they wish to, even atheists. However, and these are my comments, atheists believe what is most assuredly, false.
Not believing something is not the same thing as believing the opposite.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:40 PM
How disappointing. I thought the incest suggestion would get some attention at least. Have folks railing about how bad religion is, made the first son kill his brother. Something. Instead we have some off-topic ranting. No matter. I'll do chapter 5 next. Really, though, would this be easier if I simply posted the entire chapter at a time?
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 01:48 PM
You cannot decide what to believe and what not to believe in the bible, Dan, that is not a choice for you to make. It is a choice your god makes for you if you decide to worship him, and OBEY him.
that is correct and God uses the basic rules of grammer which all thinking humans understand when instructing a person what he/she is to believe. You are missing the point completely. Jesus doesn't want his followers to think he is a literal door. The context clearly indicates this to be a metaphor for Jesus being the only path to God. You are using an infantile straw man argument.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 01:54 PM
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen005.htm
this one's easy, begats and old people. I have always wondered if years was mistranslated or something, and it should have been months. If not, Perhaps Man de-evolved into a creature that couldn't last as long. Either way, at the end, Noah and his kids are born.
that is correct and God uses the basic rules of grammer which all thinking humans understand when instructing a person what he/she is to believe. You are missing the point completely. Jesus doesn't want his followers to think he is a literal door. The context clearly indicates this to be a metaphor for Jesus being the only path to God. You are using an infantile straw man argument.
Again, it matters not what you want to believe in the bible, Dan, that is not for you to judge. YOU are the one being judged by the god you worship and obey. YOU are the one who will go to hell if you don't comply. There are quotes in the bible that back up what it is you're supposed to believe.
If you can produce quotes from the bible that direct you or anyone else to interpret the words differently, then I'm all for seeing them. Can you, Dan? If not, then it would be that you're using an infantile straw man argument.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 01:55 PM
Not believing something is not the same thing as believing the opposite.
perhaps not, but a universal negative is a bold claim which is impossible to support. Atheists claim no evidence exists in support for God but they accomplish this by simply ignoraning and dismissing all arguments and evidence to the contrary. It is no different that a person who has had a tragic experience and now blocks out certain realties of their past. Atheism is an abnormality, that thankfully, is self refuting and self limiting.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/gen005.htm
this one's easy, begats and old people. I have always wondered if years was mistranslated or something, and it should have been months. If not, Perhaps Man de-evolved into a creature that couldn't last as long. Either way, at the end, Noah and his kids are born.
More selective beliefs that form fit your fantasies? Will those fantasies change with your meds?
perhaps not, but a universal negative is a bold claim which is impossible to support. Atheists claim no evidence exists in support for God but they accomplish this by simply ignoraning and dismissing all arguments and evidence to the contrary.
You have no argument here, Dan, since your argument and evidence isn't based on the bible.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 01:59 PM
"YOU are the one who will go to hell if you don't comply"
your understanding of basic theology is as deficient as your common sense. There is no chance of my going to hell and it has nothing to do with "complying".
"YOU are the one who will go to hell if you don't comply"
your understanding of basic theology is as deficient as your common sense. There is no chance of my going to hell and it has nothing to do with "complying".
I get my understanding about YOUR religion from the bible, where do you get it from?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 02:06 PM
Tell us, then Q, what is your understanding of Genesis chapter 5?
How disappointing. I thought the incest suggestion would get some attention at least. Have folks railing about how bad religion is, made the first son kill his brother. Something. Instead we have some off-topic ranting. No matter. I'll do chapter 5 next. Really, though, would this be easier if I simply posted the entire chapter at a time?
Hammie, you won't get comments on that from most atheists because they don't believe it really happened in the first place ;)
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 02:09 PM
I get my understanding about YOUR religion from the bible, where do you get it from?
Tell us, then Q, what is your understanding of Genesis chapter 5?
Hammie, you won't get comments on that from most atheists because they don't believe it really happened in the first place ;)
Sooo, But Q states he has an understanding of my religion from the bible. He must have read it, right?:bugeye:
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 02:11 PM
I read Moby Dick, but I don't believe it happened, but given a bit of text and it's context I can generally come to some thoughts about what the writer was trying to get across... How is this different? :shrug:
I get my understanding about YOUR religion from the bible, where do you get it from?
I bet you've never even the read the Bible. For sure, I know you haven't read the Qur'an. The closest you have probably come to doing either is flipping through the Bible's pages, reading a few verses here and there. Your knowledge on Christianity (actually, religion in general) is abysmal, especially in terms of scriptural understanding. The best you have done is copy and paste others' interpretations of the Bible, which is very unsettling - for me it is, anyway.
Kadark
Sooo, But Q states he has an understanding of my religion from the bible. He must have read it, right?:bugeye:
Yea, but that doesn't mean he believes it really happened that way. He is making the same point as I did earlier in fact.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 02:16 PM
Kadark-My Hero! :D
I read Moby Dick, but I don't believe it happened, but given a bit of text and it's context I can generally come to some thoughts about what the writer was trying to get across... How is this different? :shrug:
It's not different. But getting what the writer was meant to get across is something completely different from Christianity for example. There is a God attached and all sorts of other stuff that is believed to be unshakable truth, all from the bible of course.
Q's point is that you can't pick and choose what to hold to be unshakable and what is only meant to get a point across.
I bet you've never even the read the Bible. For sure, I know you haven't read the Qur'an. The closest you have probably come to doing either is flipping through the Bible's pages, reading a few verses here and there. Your knowledge on Christianity (actually, religion in general) is abysmal, especially in terms of scriptural understanding. The best you have done is copy and paste others' interpretations of the Bible, which is very unsettling - for me it is, anyway.
Kadark
How many Christians today have read the complete bible ? I wonder..
Tell us, then Q, what is your understanding of Genesis chapter 5?
Exactly what is printed there, of course. Why would you bother asking such a ridiculous question?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 02:23 PM
Enmos- Your point was made succinctly. You have to believe some of the bible to be a christian, how do you discern what to believe? There are several schools of thought. Fundamentalists tend to say the whole thing is literal. Takes a bit of suspension of disbelief to do that, for me. Moderates-Like myself, believe in the basics JC's sacrifice. Maybe some historical old and new testament. I myself contend with many of paul's writings. Then there are liberal christians. They make me seem closed-minded. The bible is a wonderful story, but here is the TRUTH. They weird me out sometimes.
From my stand point. The Holy Spirit(God) is within us, guiding us along, when we choose to listen. For me? It's a voice from inside of the back of my head, whereas the other voices are from the middle/lower part. I'm crazy, though. In some societies I'd be a prophet. LOL
I hope that helps. :D
Kadark-My Hero! :D
I'm just here to keep (Q) in check. My best advice to you is, try ignoring him until it is no longer possible. He's a lost cause. :(
How many Christians today have read the complete bible ? I wonder..
Not sure. Does that have anything to do with (Q)'s piss-poor understanding of the Bible, Christianity, or religion in general? I wonder ...
Kadark
I read Moby Dick, but I don't believe it happened, but given a bit of text and it's context I can generally come to some thoughts about what the writer was trying to get across... How is this different?
Are you serious? Where in Moby Dick does a god demand worship and obedience? Idiot. :rolleyes:
I bet you've never even the read the Bible. For sure, I know you haven't read the Qur'an.
You are wrong on both parts, as usual. Any other crap you wish to spew?
Enmos- Your point was made succinctly. You have to believe some of the bible to be a christian, how do you discern what to believe? There are several schools of thought. Fundamentalists tend to say the whole thing is literal. Takes a bit of suspension of disbelief to do that, for me. Moderates-Like myself, believe in the basics JC's sacrifice. Maybe some historical old and new testament. I myself contend with many of paul's writings. Then there are liberal christians. They make me seem closed-minded. The bible is a wonderful story, but here is the TRUTH. They weird me out sometimes.
From my stand point. The Holy Spirit(God) is within us, guiding us along, when we choose to listen. For me? It's a voice from inside of the back of my head, whereas the other voices are from the middle/lower part. I'm crazy, though. In some societies I'd be a prophet. LOL
I hope that helps. :D
But who decides what the basics are ?
Do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first two humans on Earth ?
Do you believe in the Garden of Eden ?
Do you believe that Noah's Ark really existed ?
Do you believe the story around it ?
Do you believe Jesus stood up from the dead and left on a cloud ?
Etc etc.
These, to me, seem to be basic elements of the Christian belief.
You are wrong on both parts, as usual. Any other crap you wish to spew?
Tell me, (Q); does it hurt when you deliberately lie to yourself, or have years of experience numbed the pain?
Kadark
Enmos- Your point was made succinctly. You have to believe some of the bible to be a christian, how do you discern what to believe? There are several schools of thought. Fundamentalists tend to say the whole thing is literal.
Clearly, they are correct.
Moderates-Like myself, believe in the basics JC's sacrifice. Maybe some historical old and new testament. I myself contend with many of paul's writings. Then there are liberal christians.
Selective beliefs. You might as well imagine it.
From my stand point. The Holy Spirit(God) is within us, guiding us along, when we choose to listen. For me? It's a voice from inside of the back of my head
That's called mental illness, which you've expressed many times. Take your meds.
Tell me, (Q); does it hurt when you deliberately lie to yourself, or have years of experience numbed the pain?
Kadark
I guess you did have more crap to spew. Anything else?
I guess you did have more crap to spew. Anything else?
I'm just waiting for your next mistake.
Kadark
I'm just here to keep (Q) in check.
http://www.smileyhut.com/laughing/rofl.gif (http://www.smileyhut.com)
Not sure. Does that have anything to do with (Q)'s piss-poor understanding of the Bible, Christianity, or religion in general? I wonder ...
That hasn't been established at all.
Q is just challenging theists. He says that you cannot just pick and choose what stories believe in the bible while saying about other stories that they are obviously only meant to get across a particular point.
I agree with Q on that.
Explain to me how you decide what to believe literally and what not to take literally.
I'm just waiting for your next mistake.
You've yet to point one out, considering the vast array of mistakes, lies and propaganda that have been pointed out from you?
That hasn't been established at all.
Q is just challenging theists. He says that you cannot just pick and choose what stories believe in the bible while saying about other stories that they are obviously only meant to get across a particular point.
I agree with Q on that.
Explain to me how you decide what to believe literally and what not to take literally.
It's truly amazing how quickly theists go scurrying off to hide their heads in the sand when faced with this issue.
Not only are we forced to have to deal with their biblical scriptural nonsense, but we are forced to deal with whatever they imagine they want to believe.
And, then they demand respect for their religious beliefs! :mad:
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 03:39 PM
How many Christians today have read the complete bible ? I wonder..
my guess is very few, depending upon how one defines "christian".
jayleew
10-30-08, 03:53 PM
Q's point is that you can't pick and choose what to hold to be unshakable and what is only meant to get a point across.
You mean you can choose what to be unshakable?
Well, if God exists, then I believe the Bible is partially truths and lies. And in that sense I suppose you are right....if he were here to show us what is truth and what is a lie.
But, if any part of the Bible is suspect, it makes other parts suspect.
What I mean is if you hold to the Bible or any other "holy" book as the truth, you can't choose what is true or not because there is no living authority that can back up the claims of truth. Since there is no authority, it can only be established as whole truth or whole myth.
You can't say, "Only this part is a fishy..." without either proof, or an author here to establish that that part is fishy.
Also, what Q so eloquently said, the rules are different from other books because "holy" scriptures are accepted as non-fiction within their respective religions/traditions/doctrines/beliefs.
You mean you can choose what to be unshakable?
Well, if God exists, then I believe the Bible is partially truths and lies. And in that sense I suppose you are right....if he were here to show us what is truth and what is a lie.
But, if any part of the Bible is suspect, it makes other parts suspect.
What I mean is if you hold to the Bible or any other "holy" book as the truth, you can't choose what is true or not because there is no living authority that can back up the claims of truth. Since there is no authority, it can only be established as whole truth or whole myth.
You can't say, "Only this part is a fishy..." without either proof, or an author here to establish that that part is fishy.
Also, what Q so eloquently said, the rules are different from other books because "holy" scriptures are accepted as non-fiction within their respective religions/traditions/doctrines/beliefs.
I want to highlight a single sentence from your post:
"But, if any part of the Bible is suspect, it makes other parts suspect."
Quite true. Now the question is where do theists get their notion of God from ?
It's truly amazing how quickly theists go scurrying off to hide their heads in the sand when faced with this issue.
Not only are we forced to have to deal with their biblical scriptural nonsense, but we are forced to deal with whatever they imagine they want to believe.
And, then they demand respect for their religious beliefs! :mad:
Well I respect anyone's personal beliefs as long as they don't try to sell it off as fact, or worse, try to force their beliefs on me.
what i don't really get, and maybe you guys could explain it to me, is why is it so deadly important to either believe everything or nothing that's in the bible? and just because it is written there, with no explanation, no experience, no understanding...just believe it or die! that makes no sense to me, and i don't understand how religious people can attest to such a belief and expect others to as well, and i don't understand why others believe the religious people in regards to it! why can't we, as individuals, live our lives, and take our experiences, and our thoughts, and feelings, and our educations, history, and sacred writings, and draw our own conclusions? why can't we say to ourselves, "i don't know."?
what i don't really get, and maybe you guys could explain it to me, is why is it so deadly important to either believe everything or nothing that's in the bible? and just because it is written there, with no explanation, no experience, no understanding...just believe it or die! that makes no sense to me, and i don't understand how religious people can attest to such a belief and expect others to as well, and i don't understand why others believe the religious people in regards to it! why can't we, as individuals, live our lives, and take our experiences, and our thoughts, and feelings, and our educations, history, and sacred writings, and draw our own conclusions? why can't we say to ourselves, "i don't know."?
Because if you don't know, you're not a theist :D
What I mean is if you hold to the Bible or any other "holy" book as the truth, you can't choose what is true or not because there is no living authority that can back up the claims of truth. Since there is no authority, it can only be established as whole truth or whole myth.
So, your god IS NOT the authority? You don't obey your god? You don't obey the bible? You are therefore not a Christian.
what i don't really get, and maybe you guys could explain it to me, is why is it so deadly important to either believe everything or nothing that's in the bible?
Lori, have you read the bible? It states in there that you are to follow and obey your god and the bible. Where do you get the idea this has anything to do with you or us? If you don't believe the bible, you are not a Christian.
and just because it is written there, with no explanation, no experience, no understanding...just believe it or die!
That is what is written there, do you not agree with it?
that makes no sense to me, and i don't understand how religious people can attest to such a belief and expect others to as well, and i don't understand why others believe the religious people in regards to it!
It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or me or anyone else, it simply is the way it is and you are to obey and follow. There is no questioning or negotiations on your part whatsoever.
why can't we, as individuals, live our lives, and take our experiences, and our thoughts, and feelings, and our educations, history, and sacred writings, and draw our own conclusions? why can't we say to ourselves, "i don't know."?
Go ahead and do so. But, you cannot call yourself a Christian nor can you hold up the bible as your guide if you refuse to follow it. In other words, you can't have your cake and expect to go to heaven.
Because if you don't know, you're not a theist :D
why is it so important to say "i'm a theist" or "i'm an atheist" or "i'm a baptist" or "i'm a homosexual"? why is it so important for people to classify and label?
why is it so important to say "i'm a theist" or "i'm an atheist" or "i'm a baptist" or "i'm a homosexual"? why is it so important for people to classify and label?
Because words have a meaning. If you say "I believe in God". Then I have a word that describes that. I can't help it either.
But if you don't want to label yourself, why would you have a problem with me saying that you are not a theist if you're not sure whether or not God exists ?
Because words have a meaning. If you say "I believe in God". Then I have a word that describes that. I can't help it either.
But if you don't want to label yourself, why would you have a problem with me saying that you are not a theist if you're not sure whether or not God exists ?
i just have a problem with conformity and labels i suppose. i have a problem with people attesting to things that they don't really know about or have no experience with. how can someone read about god and jesus in a book even if it's the bible, and just decide whether or not to believe it and then go and judge others and condemn others for not? i have had things happen to me. things that indicate the existence of a spiritual realm or some plane that's a different one from the one i see and touch and feel. these things have also indicated to me that the bible has some validity to it. but without things like these happening to me, all i would know is that it was written in a book and was known or experienced by someone else. why shouldn't i have that same privilege? like that of noah, or of abraham, who heard god's voice, and lived through some experience that showed them on a personal level, beyond any doubt (to themselves) as to what they believe? what i have experienced i've often equated with the story of noah. sometimes i feel like i'm building an ark and the people around me are scoffing, and sneering, and thinking i'm a crazy person. but i don't care what people think, because i know what i know from my own experience. there is no way i could believe what i do just because i read it in some book, or because someone else testified to me. i just couldn't do it. not that i would doubt their testimony, i just would want to have mine.
mynameisDan
10-30-08, 04:47 PM
why is it so important to say "i'm a theist" or "i'm an atheist" or "i'm a baptist" or "i'm a homosexual"? why is it so important for people to classify and label?
It is because beliefs have consequences.
i just have a problem with conformity and labels i suppose. i have a problem with people attesting to things that they don't really know about or have no experience with. how can someone read about god and jesus in a book even if it's the bible, and just decide whether or not to believe it and then go and judge others and condemn others for not? i have had things happen to me. things that indicate the existence of a spiritual realm or some plane that's a different one from the one i see and touch and feel. these things have also indicated to me that the bible has some validity to it. but without things like these happening to me, all i would know is that it was written in a book and was known or experienced by someone else. why shouldn't i have that same privilege? like that of noah, or of abraham, who heard god's voice, and lived through some experience that showed them on a personal level, beyond any doubt (to themselves) as to what they believe?
Now hold on.. you are taking that literal. How can you know that it isn't just some story someone made up a long time ago for whatever reason ?
what i have experienced i've often equated with the story of noah. sometimes i feel like i'm building an ark and the people around me are scoffing, and sneering, and thinking i'm a crazy person. but i don't care what people think, because i know what i know from my own experience.
And that is exactly what the story is supposed to convey according to some Christians.
there is no way i could believe what i do just because i read it in some book, or because someone else testified to me. i just couldn't do it. not that i would doubt their testimony, i just would want to have mine.
Most Christians have no choice; they are raised with religion.
Lori, have you read the bible? It states in there that you are to follow and obey your god and the bible. Where do you get the idea this has anything to do with you or us? If you don't believe the bible, you are not a Christian.
That is what is written there, do you not agree with it?
It doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or me or anyone else, it simply is the way it is and you are to obey and follow. There is no questioning or negotiations on your part whatsoever.
Go ahead and do so. But, you cannot call yourself a Christian nor can you hold up the bible as your guide if you refuse to follow it. In other words, you can't have your cake and expect to go to heaven.
Was not the gift of Christ to man a way for humans to get to heaven, through forgiveness and his teachings, that allowed for not abiding by not following every tenet in the Bible?
Isn't it so that you must abide by the ten commandments, and if you break one you must seek forgiveness, or know that that is not the way, or path, to heaven but if one does not seek the "eye" of an evildoer, that does not mean he (one-eye) will go to hell.
Another aspect of your "declaration of Christianity" that seems bizarre is human failing. Humans aren't perfect, they will make mistakes and violate the Bible. For argument sake, consider the Bible as more of an instruction manual rather than a final exam. Must you follow every letter of the Bible? You could, and because of human failings, you probably might still get it wrong.
Where do you get your definition of a Christian, by the way? Is it a religous source? A link to it's source would be helpful.
My level of understanding of a Christian was that of a follower and practitioner of the teachings of Jesus Christ, who cherishs the old and new testament as their religous doctrine, the divinely inspired human word of God.
Lori, how do you define sin? This question arose because your seemingly negative views of morality.
sticks and stones can break my bones but guns and bombs can kill you.
Like I said, you'll be raptured any day now, right?
furthermore, if the antichrist doesn't show, I wouldn't count on your superhero either
i just have a problem with conformity and labels i suppose. i have a problem with people attesting to things that they don't really know about or have no experience with. how can someone read about god and jesus in a book even if it's the bible, and just decide whether or not to believe it and then go and judge others and condemn others for not?
Simple, the bible is the only single source in which one can find out about about god and jesus. If you grew up never hearing or reading of them, you would never know anything about them.
but i don't care what people think, because i know what i know from my own experience. there is no way i could believe what i do just because i read it in some book, or because someone else testified to me. i just couldn't do it. not that i would doubt their testimony, i just would want to have mine.
And it is yours, indistinguishable from your own imagination, just like every other theist.
But, that in no way makes you a Christian. The god of the bible commands obedience and worship. You can't simply call yourself that which you don't follow.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:06 PM
Every time I'm not here to babysit you people, you all just run amok. Yeesh.
Enmos-I'll address you, maybe you can explain it to Q for me. Christians believe they are imbued with a bit of God called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what guides us as we go throught the bible, pointing out the things that pertain to us individually. If you won't believe without an impossible proof, then describing it to you is like describing blue to a blind man. You might get the concepts, but the experience is beyond you, unless you choose to try to believe. As far as how many christians have read the Bible, I can only speak from personal experience. I have. 5 times. This will be six, unless I die before we're done. The problem is that I am posting a hyperlink. I will try to post the text when reasonable.
BTW-I hate numbers, so when we get there I may hyperlink 5 chapters or more at a time. I'm not an accountant, so I don't get off on numbers much.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:07 PM
Q-speak of that which you know...so be quiet.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:10 PM
Lori-Q is a massively weak debater, thus it's all or nothing for him. Enmos is ok, just very probing. As long as you're honest, you'll be ok, if not, enmos will go on forever and chase you around the board screaming epithets. You answered the question about discernment, so did I. I'm just referring them to my previous post from now on.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:16 PM
Finally, Try to keep in mind... The Bible is a COLLECTION OF WRITINGS!!!!! It's less a book than a library. Some individual books are thought to have multiple authors-Isaiah, and Psalms being prime examples. Some books are thought to have been dictated, Paul's writings. It's commonly thought the first 5 books of the OT were written by Moses, or at his direction. This "It's all or nothing" drivel is weak garbage. The only reason you don't think so stems from the fact that you haven't done any study of the bible yourself.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:16 PM
Where were we? Chapter 6?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:17 PM
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-30-08, 07:18 PM
I've got scads of questions about this chapter.... I'll let someone else throw out some thoughts first, if you like.
Was not the gift of Christ to man a way for humans to get to heaven, through forgiveness and his teachings, that allowed for not abiding by not following every tenet in the Bible?
Where does it state in the bible one must not follow every tenet and if so, which tenets exactly should be followed and which ones shouldn't?
Isn't it so that you must abide by the ten commandments, and if you break one you must seek forgiveness, or know that that is not the way, or path, to heaven but if one does not seek the "eye" of an evildoer, that does not mean he (one-eye) will go to hell.
Yes, I understand the hypocrisy of the bible, as well as the hypocrisy of those who don't follow it and then claim they are of that religion.
Another aspect of your "declaration of Christianity" that seems bizarre is human failing.
You're seriously mistaken when you state this is my "declaration of Christianity" - it is a declaration from your god to you.
Humans aren't perfect, they will make mistakes and violate the Bible.
So what? If your god knows all and sees all, he will surely recognize them for their mistakes, just as he will recognize those who do not obey his commands.
For argument sake, consider the Bible as more of an instruction manual rather than a final exam.
Ok, so why don't you and other theists follow the instruction manual?
Must you follow every letter of the Bible? You could, and because of human failings, you probably might still get it wrong.
How is that possible? The word of your god is perfect, is it not? It is crystal clear in it's message, is it not? Are you stating that the word of god is fallible and you question it's validity?
Where do you get your definition of a Christian, by the way?
From the bible, where do you get yours?
My level of understanding of a Christian was that of a follower and practitioner of the teachings of Jesus Christ, who cherishs the old and new testament as their religous doctrine, the divinely inspired human word of God.
Then, if you follow and obey the word of your god, I see no problem with you calling yourself a Christian.
Yet, you argue that you don't follow it. So, what is it, do you follow the word of your god or not?
Christians believe they are imbued with a bit of God called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what guides us as we go throught the bible, pointing out the things that pertain to us individually.
Christians might disagree with you.
(In 2 Peter 3:16, the apostle warns about the dangers of distorting the Word of God. Those who distort it do so “to their own destruction.”) Remember: The Bible is God's Word. Do not add to it or subtract from it! Do not change what it says. Accept it as it is! (See Proverbs 30:5–6; Matthew 5:19; Mark 7:5–13; Revelation 22:18–19.)
\http://www.journal33.org/bible/html/tbgw.htm
If you won't believe without an impossible proof, then describing it to you is like describing blue to a blind man. You might get the concepts, but the experience is beyond you, unless you choose to try to believe.
Sure, you can choose to try to believe in the bogyman, too.
Finally, Try to keep in mind... The Bible is a COLLECTION OF WRITINGS!!!!! It's less a book than a library. Some individual books are thought to have multiple authors-Isaiah, and Psalms being prime examples. Some books are thought to have been dictated, Paul's writings. It's commonly thought the first 5 books of the OT were written by Moses, or at his direction. This "It's all or nothing" drivel is weak garbage. The only reason you don't think so stems from the fact that you haven't done any study of the bible yourself.
So, you'll be quoting all the passages that Christians are supposed to believe and all the passages they can ignore? We await your divine intervention.
The book says "don't be surprised when the world hates you" so you aren't affecting me by calling me names. It also says "if the blind lead the blind, won't they both fall into a ditch" ergo as you lead your blind followers down the democratic road to destruction, I'll just sit in my free apartment and watch while your whole world collapses. Yes, I know I'm crazy but have you picked up a newspaper lately, brainiac
Lori, how do you define sin? This question arose because your seemingly negative views of morality.
a transgression of law. kinda like a crime i suppose. i think there's a state of perfect balance and equilibrium that can be reached within the universe that would create an eternal life so, if we quit fucking that all up we'll live forever.
i also think that the propensity to do so is like a birth defect for us right now, and that seems to have to do with a broken covenant and lack of communion with god. one that will one day be restored by the blood of christ somehow.
i have a negative view of morality because as i said, i think that much of it is man-made to serve his purpose...to judge, and to segregate. i don't get the impression that mankind has a good idea about what god's laws are, so they can't possibly determine what sin is. much of what the organized religions of this world have determined is nothing more than a power play and it's mostly based upon greed, lust, pride...you know...sin. how many religious people do you know who have a tendency to be judgemental based upon what they've determined to constitute as sin? i think lots of people become indoctrinated just so they can judge each other. themselves. i'm better than you. jesus loves me more cause i'm good and you're not. i'm going to heaven because i walk, talk, eat, and shit a certain way and you won't because you don't. it makes me sick. jesus wasn't like that. and judging others is something that he did not condone. i think that jesus and god are extremely misrepresented in today's world and have been for a long time. since jesus died i guess. but all it really takes is some common sense, an open heart, and some intentions that are good and honest to see that jesus had it going on, and he still does.
Now hold on.. you are taking that literal. How can you know that it isn't just some story someone made up a long time ago for whatever reason ?
i don't know that and would never ever claim to...that's my point. all i know is what has happened to me...what i have experienced, and because of that i can relate to this story. that is why the bible is meaningful to me. because i can relate to the things it tells of due to my own experience. shit there have been times when i would swear i was reading the story of my life in it. but it isn't my life, and that just goes to show that maybe it tells of univeral truths.
Most Christians have no choice; they are raised with religion.
i'm sorry but that's fucking bullshit man. everyone has a choice in this life. i was raised by racists. i'm not a fucking racist. now my dad isn't either. ha!
scorpius
10-30-08, 10:29 PM
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.
thnx for sharing your MYTHology.
xian god doesnt exist
http://www.evilbible.com/Impossible.htm
Now hold on.. you are taking that literal. How can you know that it isn't just some story someone made up a long time ago for whatever reason ?
also enmos, i've gotta say that god has used many things, not just the bible, to teach me and show me things. he's used other people, and various works of art, especially music. have you ever heard a song and thought, "my god, how did they know?" like they wrote it about you? i sure as hell have. and not in a metaphorical, "i can relate", kind of way, but in a, "oh my god, they wrote this song about me. who's watching me?" kind of way. i also relate to a hindu goddess named kali quite a bit. and to mary, both mother and wife.
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20 Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21 And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
demons breeding with humans. creating "men of renown". i don't think this is the only time it's happened, or the last. and so he destroyed the earth. and noah was chosen because his bloodline was pure. the blood, the blood, it all comes back to the blood. where our genetic code is held and manipulated. i think that the same activity is going on right now on this earth. what does it say? that in the last days, it will be like the time of noah, so he'll do it again.
PsychoticEpisode
10-30-08, 11:00 PM
god has used many things, not just the bible, to teach me and show me things. he's used other people, and various works of art, especially music. have you ever heard a song and thought, "my god, how did they know?" like they wrote it about you? i sure as hell have. and not in a metaphorical, "i can relate", kind of way, but in a, "oh my god, they wrote this song about me. who's watching me?" kind of way. i also relate to a hindu goddess named kali quite a bit. and to mary, both mother and wife.
This is the quintessential believer post. It speaks volumes. Copies of it should hang in every church foyer.
If it is satire then it s very good satire.
Not my puppy
10-30-08, 11:20 PM
WHAT? Made up creation :confused:
Shut your mouth.
i don't know that and would never ever claim to...that's my point. all i know is what has happened to me...what i have experienced, and because of that i can relate to this story. that is why the bible is meaningful to me. because i can relate to the things it tells of due to my own experience. shit there have been times when i would swear i was reading the story of my life in it. but it isn't my life, and that just goes to show that maybe it tells of univeral truths.
You have gone full circle.
i'm sorry but that's fucking bullshit man. everyone has a choice in this life. i was raised by racists. i'm not a fucking racist. now my dad isn't either. ha!
It's not bullshit at all.
Children who are raised in a religious environment are predisposed to religion and are almost certain to be believers in the same religion as their parents and they are FAR more likely to be believers later in life than people from non-religious environments.
Of course they have a choice later in life but the "damage" has already been done.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 08:33 AM
Not much time, lots to do today, but looking at the chapter in question, it comes across like a thought starts, then a new thought starts. Sons of God? Weird term to use for fallen angels, I think. What were they? dunno. Giants? What was the average height back then? God having regrets? It doesn't fit into the omni-everything God. This is a big piece of why I mark this up as a "story" literally. You can go down the road of bloodlines, you can go down the road that the Ark was a spaceship, if you want to. I choose to avoid those paths entirely, as they don't influence salvation.
Hammie, I don't understand. Please explain..
You get the notion of God through the bible, either directly or indirectly. Agree ?
Next, you reject the source.. and retain the notion of God.. I mean.. HUH ?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 08:56 AM
Enmos-Remember? Bible is less a book than a library? If I go to my library I can get fiction and txtbooks on biology. I may get the concept of biology from the fiction first, then I go get textbooks on it. I'm not rejecting the library at all.
Enmos-Remember? Bible is less a book than a library? If I go to my library I can get fiction and txtbooks on biology. I may get the concept of biology from the fiction first, then I go get textbooks on it. I'm not rejecting the library at all.
But they all revolve around the same basic subject; God.
If you reject the key elements of God in the bible, how can you not reject the notion of God itself ?
jayleew
10-31-08, 09:05 AM
So, your god IS NOT the authority? You don't obey your god? You don't obey the bible? You are therefore not a Christian.
There are no gods. I try to follow the ethics of a man called Jesus Christ (mythological or not). I'm not a Christian stereotypically, but literally....maybe.
There are no gods. I try to follow the ethics of a man called Jesus Christ (mythological or not). I'm not a Christian stereotypically, but literally....maybe.
Ok, then why did you pick Jesus specifically ? Don't you have a mind of your own ?
It's not bullshit at all.
Children who are raised in a religious environment are predisposed to religion and are almost certain to be believers in the same religion as their parents and they are FAR more likely to be believers later in life than people from non-religious environments.
Of course they have a choice later in life but the "damage" has already been done.
are you sure? because everyone i know that's been raised in some religious household, including my own exposure to it at a young age, has rejected it, thank god. how could you not? it's so ridiculous. most people are so turned off by it that they run from it as soon as they hit 18 years of age and can. i think that most people who fill the church pews on sunday morning are stupid enough to think that's what will "get them to heaven". i mean, how mindless do you really need to be to become indoctrinated? to believe something just because someone else does or tells you that's what you should do? morons.
I am sure. Obviously people choose their friends, so did you.
How mindless ? As mindless as a little kid. Little children have no defense against indoctrination.
I am sure. Obviously people choose their friends, so did you.
How mindless ? As mindless as a little kid. Little children have no defense against indoctrination.
little kids grow up. are you saying that people have no responsibility for their own beliefs or actions? come on. everything is somebody else's fault? no...
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 10:05 AM
But they all revolve around the same basic subject; God.
If you reject the key elements of God in the bible, how can you not reject the notion of God itself ?
I take it all books on photography are the same?
Also, What key elements? The things which prop up my beliefs are pretty unbiblical, to be honest with you. I believe that free will means we have a choice. To choose to believe God exists is one choice. To believe God made a worldwide flood is a different, seperate choice. You choose to not believe in God. I'm cool with that. I will be sad if I'm right and you're not, and indifferent if you're right and I'm not. Present me with what you consider to be the key elements of God and I'll discuss them with you.
jayleew
10-31-08, 10:06 AM
Finally, Try to keep in mind... The Bible is a COLLECTION OF WRITINGS!!!!! It's less a book than a library. Some individual books are thought to have multiple authors-Isaiah, and Psalms being prime examples. Some books are thought to have been dictated, Paul's writings. It's commonly thought the first 5 books of the OT were written by Moses, or at his direction. This "It's all or nothing" drivel is weak garbage. The only reason you don't think so stems from the fact that you haven't done any study of the bible yourself.
My ex-pastors, who have studied the Bible, disagree with you. Their whole argument is that all of the Bible supports itself. "If you don't understand something, then keep reading...scripture will support itself..."
Now, from my own study, I see what they are saying. But, sometimes the arguments are very weak in the Bible to keep the scripture you have questions about afloat. So, you would say I don't understand it yet. Well, who does? Not only does the Bible have a translation problem, but there is no authority living today that can support the writings as truth...either in Genesis or in Revelations.
The bottom line is this: if you believe in God, but recognize the Bible has fault, then you are safe. But, if you believe in God, and demand the Bible is truth because you believe you have something figured out in scripture, you run the risk of pride and prejudice. If you don't believe in God, but recognize the Bible might be true if there were a God, you are agnostic. If you don't believe in God, and also that the Bible is fiction, you are atheist.
The most dangerous person is one who believes in God AND that the Bible is all true. If you do not believe this, then you have not been working for a church. My ex-pastor's wife (and the pastor himself somewhat) are dangerous people...mostly to Christians. They are good people, who have helped me and many others, but they are a double edged sword. Because of their unwavering faith, they hindered the the church body and hurt people who were "pouring oil on Christ" like Mary did to Jesus. And that is where I realized that if you believe you have it all figured out, I guarauntee you are wrong.
It is too painful for me to have unreasonable and blind faith. The life is too hard to live to have faith in a silent God because you find yourself lying to yourself. And I don't want to hear about how God spoke to you either because I read the story in the Bible where Gideon continually doubted it was God he was hearing.
36 Then Gideon said to God, “If you are truly going to use me to rescue Israel as you promised, 37 prove it to me in this way. I will put a wool fleece on the threshing floor tonight. If the fleece is wet with dew in the morning but the ground is dry, then I will know that you are going to help me rescue Israel as you promised.” 38 And that is just what happened. When Gideon got up early the next morning, he squeezed the fleece and wrung out a whole bowlful of water.
39 Then Gideon said to God, “Please don’t be angry with me, but let me make one more request. Let me use the fleece for one more test. This time let the fleece remain dry while the ground around it is wet with dew.” 40 So that night God did as Gideon asked. The fleece was dry in the morning, but the ground was covered with dew.
If God did that for this man, why not me when I was a believer for many years? There is no excuse that anyone can give, so don't be foolish and say something like "all in God's timing" or "if it's God's will" or "you didn't pray right". All that bullcrap is a man-made excuse. If you believe in God, you believe that he lives (and you think you even feel his presence) and will not let his sheep go astray when they ask for the glory of God's kingdom.
Either God doesn't exist, or the Bible is false sometimes. But, no one is qualified to say which parts are true or false. That is the point of this rambling that you did not hear the first time I said it.
little kids grow up. are you saying that people have no responsibility for their own beliefs or actions? come on. everything is somebody else's fault? no...
Most people that grow up with a religious upbringing remain religious.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 10:14 AM
jayleew-I have been run out of 4 baptist churches for believing what I believe. I think you have hit the nail on the head. The thoughtful christian has to admit that christianity is just a good bet. I think Satan considers mindless literalist fundamentalist christians to be some of his greatest assets. I tend to rail against them far worse than I do at Atheists. They have turned off their brains, Atheists just have a different opinion.
I take it all books on photography are the same?
They all revolve around the same basic subject, yes.
Other than that you can't really use that as an analogy because camera's are know to exist beyond any doubt.
Also, What key elements? The things which prop up my beliefs are pretty unbiblical, to be honest with you. I believe that free will means we have a choice. To choose to believe God exists is one choice. To believe God made a worldwide flood is a different, seperate choice. You choose to not believe in God. I'm cool with that. I will be sad if I'm right and you're not, and indifferent if you're right and I'm not. Present me with what you consider to be the key elements of God and I'll discuss them with you.
Do you believe that God created the Earth and heavens etc including animals and plants ?
Do you believe that Adam and Eve we're created by God as the first humans on Earth ?
Do you believe that God has brought on the Great Flood ?
Do you believe that God has impregnated virgin Mary and that Jesus was his "son".
Do you believe that God carved out the ten commandments ?
Do you believe that the God of the Old testament is the God of the new testament ?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 10:16 AM
Most people that grow up with pet dogs want to own dogs as adults. Indoctrination is unavoidable, unless we socialize childcare like the Nazis.
Most people that grow up with a religious upbringing remain religious.
most people are stupid mindless drones who question nothing because they're too busy jacking off, eating junk food, doing drugs, and watching tv.
most people are stupid mindless drones who question nothing because they're too busy jacking off, eating junk food, doing drugs, and watching tv.
Exactly :D
:thumbsup:
i mean who can't see through religion? honestly? well sadly enough the answer is...lots of people! and it's both sides. the religious buy it, and the atheists buy it just as much, because it's their arguement. no one wants to have to use their brains, open their mind and their heart. no one wants the truth. they just want to make it through in comfort.
i mean who can't see through religion? honestly? well sadly enough the answer is...lots of people! and it's both sides. the religious buy it, and the atheists buy it just as much, because it's their arguement. no one wants to have to use their brains, open their mind and their heart. no one wants the truth. they just want to make it through in comfort.
Huh ? Atheists buy it because it's their argument ? lol No.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 10:22 AM
They all revolve around the same basic subject, yes.
Other than that you can't really use that as an analogy because camera's are know to exist beyond any doubt.
You answered the wrong question. Do all books on photography say the same things about photography? The existence of photography is known, so you'd think there would just be one book on it.
Do you believe that God created the Earth and heavens etc including animals and plants ? Yes
Do you believe that Adam and Eve we're created by God as the first humans on Earth ? Yes
Do you believe that God has brought on the Great Flood ? Yes
Do you believe that God has impregnated virgin Mary and that Jesus was his "son". Yes
Do you believe that God carved out the ten commandments ? Yes
Do you believe that the God of the Old testament is the God of the new testament ? Yes
To be fair, I simply answered Yes or No. I didn't explain any of it from what I believe or why. I would like to point out that I do not blieve these are necessary for salvation, either. :p
but all it really takes is some common sense, an open heart, and some intentions that are good and honest to see that jesus had it going on, and he still does.
Sorry Lori, but if all it took was common sense and good intentions, there would be no religions. However, if you're going to be a Christian, you have to tow the Christian line and that means obeying god and the bible. Anything else is just faking it.
Yes
I would like to point out that I do not blieve these are necessary for salvation, either.
It doesn't matter what you personally believe about gaining salvation, that's not what the bible states. Salvation comes from worshiping and obeying god and his commands. Hell will be your destiny if you don't, plain and simple.
Most people that grow up with pet dogs want to own dogs as adults. Indoctrination is unavoidable, unless we socialize childcare like the Nazis.
Indoctrination is only unavoidable for those children whose parents do not allow them to think for themselves, and tell them what to believe and what not to believe. It has nothing to do with dogs.
Huh ? Atheists buy it because it's their argument ? lol No.
oh now, i have heard so many people defend their atheism by referencing the stupidity of religion. so if that's the case, they buy it as much as the theists.
what would happen if they say to themselves, the religious have it all wrong?
i like to call it "throwing the baby jesus out with the bathwater".
jayleew-I have been run out of 4 baptist churches for believing what I believe.
Of course, you are a blasphemer as you don't obey gods commands.
The thoughtful christian has to admit that christianity is just a good bet. I think Satan considers mindless literalist fundamentalist christians to be some of his greatest assets. I tend to rail against them far worse than I do at Atheists. They have turned off their brains, Atheists just have a different opinion.
You are no Christian, then. You've made up your own religion which has nothing to do with Christianity.
The bottom line is this: if you believe in God, but recognize the Bible has fault, then you are safe.
Absolutely not. If you recognize the bible has fault, then you are NOT a Christian and you certainly are not safe.
The most dangerous person is one who believes in God AND that the Bible is all true.
You are referring to Christians who follow their gods commands and obey the bible, as they are supposed to do.
And I don't want to hear about how God spoke to you either because I read the story in the Bible where Gideon continually doubted it was God he was hearing.
Now you're being a hypocrite. First, you say that the most dangerous person is one who believes the bible to be true and now you quote the bible to support your argument. What's going on here?
Either God doesn't exist, or the Bible is false sometimes. But, no one is qualified to say which parts are true or false. That is the point of this rambling that you did not hear the first time I said it.
You are entirely wrong. YOUR GOD is qualified to say which parts are true or false, and the bible is HIS word, hence it MUST be true, or else your god is a bold-faced liar.
So, which is it? Are you wrong or is your god wrong?
There are no gods. I try to follow the ethics of a man called Jesus Christ (mythological or not). I'm not a Christian stereotypically, but literally....maybe.
Sorry pal, you are NOT a Christian at all. Trying to follow ethics does not cut it.
mynameisDan
10-31-08, 10:55 AM
"My ex-pastors, who have studied the Bible, disagree with you. Their whole argument is that all of the Bible supports itself. "If you don't understand something, then keep reading...scripture will support itself...""
I think what they are saying is that it is self authenticating. There are objective and subjective aspects to this. For those of us who are believers, we have found an amazing amount of internal consistancy when one reads from Genesis to Revelation with its central theme of the redemption of mankind throughout. Yet when you realize that it was a compilation of books written by around 40 authors over a 1500 year period, this becomes even more suprising. It is either the most carefully crafted through time conspiracy as Acharya and a few other wacko's have suggested, or it bears the marks of divine authorship. Combine this with numerous clear prophecies which have already been fulfilled in minute detail and it is so convincing that even the late Isaac Newton declared its divine authorship unnassailable.
"Now, from my own study, I see what they are saying. But, sometimes the arguments are very weak in the Bible to keep the scripture you have questions about afloat. So, you would say I don't understand it yet. Well, who does?"
The bible is a large book and while the central themes are simple, there are many complexities as well. Do you feel that not understanding everything is a basis for throwing it out?
"Not only does the Bible have a translation problem, but there is no authority living today that can support the writings as truth...either in Genesis or in Revelations."
what do you mean "translation problem"? I disagree that the bible is not defensible as truth. There are numerous "authorities" who defend it daily. Have you read anything by Dr. Gary Habermas or Josh McDowell for example?
"The bottom line is this: if you believe in God, but recognize the Bible has fault, then you are safe."
I am not interested in playing it safe so I will defend the bible as truth. If you are saying that small copyist errors exist in the present documents from which translations are made I will conceed this point, but they are insignificant.
"But, if you believe in God, and demand the Bible is truth because you believe you have something figured out in scripture, you run the risk of pride and prejudice."
You run no such risk. Nor is this a "leap of faith" but rather a baby step of faith greatly supported by the evidence.
"The most dangerous person is one who believes in God AND that the Bible is all true."
this is illogical. Are you saying that this position is the hardest to defend or that believing in the bible makes a person "dangerous"?
"And that is where I realized that if you believe you have it all figured out, I guarauntee you are wrong."
There is a difference between "having it all figured out" and axiomatically accepting the bible as truth. It is impossible to arrive at absolute truth empiricle, one must, at some point, make a committment or remain an agnostic.
"It is too painful for me to have unreasonable and blind faith."
me too! Here is the good news! You don't have to. In fact, the bible condemns such a practice. Blind faith is the faith of the atheist. The bible enjoins the believe to love God with all your MIND. The central message of the NT Church was the objective evidence of a bodily resurrection. The resurrection evidence caused former atheist (now deist) Antony Flew to admit that Christians are "rational" for believing on the evidence for this miracle alone.
"The life is too hard to live to have faith in a silent God because you find yourself lying to yourself."
A silent God? I think he is rather noisy, day to day pouring forth speech through is creation and his Word, the Bible.
"And I don't want to hear about how God spoke to you either because I read the story in the Bible where Gideon continually doubted it was God he was hearing."
When you analyze the atheist argument it is really that they cannot "see any god(s)". Of course, like Gideon, it really wouldn't matter if you could, you would still have to excercise faith! And this story is a demonstration of this fact. The Christian Gods existance is overwhelming.
"If God did that for this man, why not me when I was a believer for many years? There is no excuse that anyone can give, so don't be foolish and say something like "all in God's timing" or "if it's God's will" or "you didn't pray right". All that bullcrap is a man-made excuse. If you believe in God, you believe that he lives (and you think you even feel his presence) and will not let his sheep go astray when they ask for the glory of God's kingdom."
God didn't do this for Gideon to prove his existance, he did it to prove to Gideon that he was directing him. But God normally doesn't do this and it is not necessary. We now have the complete scripture, a wealth of apologetics which support the Bible.
"Either God doesn't exist, or the Bible is false sometimes."
Illogical conclusion. If the bible is false sometimes, the biblical God does not exist.
"But, no one is qualified to say which parts are true or false. That is the point of this rambling that you did not hear the first time I said it."
All of the bible is true, it has been tested in the fire and refined seven times. It can be believed and trusted which is why it says "taste and see that the Lord is good, How blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him". You have allowed foolish people to steal away your faith. That is sad.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 11:03 AM
The aforementioned fundamentalist literalist arrives, smashing at other christians for not being,"up to snuff".
The aforementioned fundamentalist literalist arrives, smashing at other christians for not being,"up to snuff".
The pseudo-wannabe theist follows up with anti-Christians rhetoric.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 11:17 AM
Q-I know, Noah's Ark is a good story, we'll get to it soon. I promise.
mynameisDan
10-31-08, 11:33 AM
i mean who can't see through religion? honestly? well sadly enough the answer is...lots of people! and it's both sides. the religious buy it, and the atheists buy it just as much, because it's their arguement. no one wants to have to use their brains, open their mind and their heart. no one wants the truth. they just want to make it through in comfort.
I can see through "religion" which is why I reject it. But I nor you, can see through the claims of Christ, you just *think* you can. You make one good point however which I have stated many times, atheism is self refuting because they must assume to be true what the presume to be false. There are no positive arguments for atheism, but there are numerous arguments for Christian theism.
I see no evidence that you want the truth more than anyone else.
There are no positive arguments for atheism, but there are numerous arguments for Christian theism.
There are many arguments for not accepting the claims of Christians or the bible, which would even include the belief of other religions, like Islam, but there is only ONE single argument for Christianity; the bible.
I can see through "religion" which is why I reject it. But I nor you, can see through the claims of Christ, you just *think* you can. You make one good point however which I have stated many times, atheism is self refuting because they must assume to be true what the presume to be false. There are no positive arguments for atheism, but there are numerous arguments for Christian theism.
I see no evidence that you want the truth more than anyone else.
how would you? :confused:
to be honest, i really don't *think* all that much about it. i really try not to, as it usually only serves to drive me crazy. who can see what the future is? who can know how it will all come about. most of the things i talk about are the result of messages that i've received. most times i interpret them wrong so i've learned not to really bother anymore. i'm just looking forward to what comes next and enjoying myself, my friends, and loved ones as much as i am able until it does. that's the thing. i've been wrong enough to know that it's a waste of time to do anything besides keep an open mind and an open heart and good intentions as much as possible as anything else will only cause pain.
when i ponder, i think about wwjd kinds of things. how can i spread the love?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-31-08, 01:14 PM
meh-belief is relative to the believer. WWJD is an awesome example. What I think Jesus would do in a given circumstance might be hugely different from what someone else thinks Jesus would do. Maybe Jesus would lay the holy smack down on an unbeliever, maybe he'd shed a tear for the unbeliever's soul and go on. I don't know.
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