View Full Version : Is Atheism a guilt response?
Has there been any studies done on atheists as a group to investigate unresolved guilt?
Medicine*Woman
10-22-08, 05:54 PM
Has there been any studies done on atheists as a group to investigate unresolved guilt?
*************
M*W: Where did you come up with this fallacious statement? Why would atheists have unresolved guilt. Guilt is something theists have.
CheskiChips
10-22-08, 06:10 PM
Almost everyone has unresolved guilt.
MW, I wouldn't bash on the guy/gal for asking a simple question. He's obviously curious about it, so why not give him a proper answer?
Cheski nailed it, by the way.
I don't think guilt has much to do with atheism. In fact, I would imagine (and this is just my feeling on it) that the particular type of guilt associated with something like religion (or lack thereof) would bring a person to religion, rather than drive them away from it. So much of religion is atonement, submission, salvation, it makes sense that religion would be a haven for those who feel they aren't living up to their potential, who have perhaps done bad things in their life, etc..
What's your hypothesis, rjr6?
"Unresolved guilt" is an interesting quality. How would you test for it?
Has there been any studies done on atheists as a group to investigate unresolved guilt?
I'll try to actually address the question. Searching on pubmed, Google scholar, and some other research databases doesn't find anything specifically measuring guilt in atheists, but there are a number that do touch on relationships between the religious and spiritual dimensions of people and their feelings of guilt.
I haven't tried to read any of them in detail yet, and I don't know what your hypothesis is, so I don't know if they're relevant or not.
I don't even know what unresolved guilt is.
Seems like a waste of time though.
From my very brief skim of the literature, "unresolved guilt" really means all current feelings of guilt. In practice, "resolving" guilt means absolving and nullifying it.
I.e. if someone feels guilt, then it must be unresolved... because if it were resolved, the person would not be feeling guilty.
KennyJC
10-22-08, 10:14 PM
Has there been any studies done on atheists as a group to investigate unresolved guilt?
I think studies would find atheists and non-religious people are freer of guilt than their religious counterparts.
I personally can't remember suffering guilt more than when I was going through my catholic education. Not sure if the guilt was to do with being a child or if it was to do with religious indoctrination... but nevertheless, without the baggage of religion, people will take life as it comes whilst religious folk incessantly analyze every moment of their life based on how they think Jesus/God want them to behave.
CutsieMarie89
10-22-08, 11:19 PM
What exactly does unresolved guilt mean?
Has there been any studies done on atheists as a group to investigate unresolved guilt?If by unresolved you mean unsolved, or undecided, uncertain. Then your barking up the wrong tree, Atheism is what you are from the onset, Atheist have no need to solve or decide anything unless they had been indoctrinated into a religion, those Atheist have used there reason, intellect and solved(and by solved I don't mean it was any kind of problem/difficulty, common sense isn't rocket science) and decided there stance, and thus left the (religious cult name here ).
But as for guilt, Why would they have any guilt? what is there to feel guilty about?
They have decided that there is no reason to hold a belief in a god/gods, because a belief in god/gods is irrational and unreasonable.
Pete
"unresolved guilt" really means all current feelings of guilt. In practice, "resolving" guilt means absolving and nullifying it.
Sweet. I'm set.
I hereby absolve and nullify all guilt as soon as you are done with it.
I've never been that into gold any way.
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-23-08, 06:42 AM
Have there been any studies done on gods to investigate unresolved guilt?
*************
M*W: Where did you come up with this fallacious statement? Why would atheists have unresolved guilt. Guilt is something theists have.
atheists do not feel guilty (in general), as a group, concerning their behaviour? Is atheism an attempt to escape from the feelings of guilt?
CutsieMarie89
10-23-08, 04:25 PM
atheists do not feel guilty (in general), as a group, concerning their behaviour? Is atheism an attempt to escape from the feelings of guilt?
Oh I understand what you're saying. You're asking if people become atheists because they don't want to feel guilty for disobeying God. Right? You can't apologize to someone who doesn't exist. Like I would no longer feel guilty about having sex with my boyfriend because God frowns upon it, as an atheist I would have no reason to feel guilty because I would have done nothing wrong. That's true. I don't feel guilty for fornicating, like a Christian should/would, but being absolved from guilt isn't the reason I lost my faith. Guilt had nothing to do with it.
MW, I wouldn't bash on the guy/gal for asking a simple question. He's obviously curious about it, so why not give him a proper answer?
Cheski nailed it, by the way.
I don't think guilt has much to do with atheism. In fact, I would imagine (and this is just my feeling on it) that the particular type of guilt associated with something like religion (or lack thereof) would bring a person to religion, rather than drive them away from it. So much of religion is atonement, submission, salvation, it makes sense that religion would be a haven for those who feel they aren't living up to their potential, who have perhaps done bad things in their life, etc..
Thanks for your answer. What is the type of guilt associated with religion?
glaucon
10-23-08, 04:39 PM
Thanks for your answer. What is the type of guilt associated with religion?
I'm not sure whether or not you started this thread as a joke or not, but if not then:
guilt is specifically a machination of Religion.
Oh I understand what you're saying. You're asking if people become atheists because they don't want to feel guilty for disobeying God. Right? You can't apologize to someone who doesn't exist. Like I would no longer feel guilty about having sex with my boyfriend because God frowns upon it, as an atheist I would have no reason to feel guilty because I would have done nothing wrong. That's true. I don't feel guilty for fornicating, like a Christian should/would, but being absolved from guilt isn't the reason I lost my faith. Guilt had nothing to do with it.
The thread does not attempt to address guilt developed from disobeying religous doctrine, necessarily. Just the feeling of guilt. Medicine*Woman seem to indicate that her idea of atheism did not allow for the feeling of guilt, and I wanted her to correct my assumption or expand on her assertion.
I'm not sure whether or not you started this thread as a joke or not, but if not then:
guilt is specifically a machination of Religion.
The thread topic developed from an honest question in my attempt to understand atheist. Though it could be construed as antagonistic, agreed.
From the hip response: Have you seen a dog look guilty?
What's your hypothesis, rjr6?
"Unresolved guilt" is an interesting quality. How would you test for it?
Don't have one yet, gathering information. Atheism has many sects so it would be hard to test. And unresolved guilt would depend on the level of honestly of the testee, among other things such as, for lack of better name, internal moral code. To test for contradictory behavior of testee to this code and coping methods of said testee.
Haven't given much thought to it.
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:04 PM
The thread topic developed from an honest question in my attempt to understand atheist. Though it could be construed as antagonistic, agreed.
From the hip response: Have you seen a dog look guilty?
No.
I wouldn't say it's possible.
If by unresolved you mean unsolved, or undecided, uncertain. Then your barking up the wrong tree, Atheism is what you are from the onset, Atheist have no need to solve or decide anything unless they had been indoctrinated into a religion, those Atheist have used there reason, intellect and solved(and by solved I don't mean it was any kind of problem/difficulty, common sense isn't rocket science) and decided there stance, and thus left the (religious cult name here ).
But as for guilt, Why would they have any guilt? what is there to feel guilty about?
They have decided that there is no reason to hold a belief in a god/gods, because a belief in god/gods is irrational and unreasonable.
How do atheist internally reconcile their behavior when they harm another, or themselves for that matter? This could include failure and mistakes.
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:10 PM
How do atheist internally reconcile their behavior when they harm another, or themselves for that matter? This could include failure and mistakes.
Firstly: how does the theist reconcile such behaviour?
Secondly: why is reconciliation necessary?
As an atheist,I'd be happy to answer your question, but I'm unsure as to what exactly you mean.
No.
I wouldn't say it's possible.
Why not? I looked up "guilt" in the dictionary and in Websters it had no religous or deistic connection. Though I imagine there are many definitions that are out there.
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:16 PM
Why not? I looked up "guilt" in the dictionary and in Websters it had no religous or deistic connection. Though I imagine there are many definitions that are out there.
Your point being??
You obviously have a working definition of "guilt".
Do you think a dog may experience it?
I do not.
CutsieMarie89
10-23-08, 05:17 PM
The thread does not attempt to address guilt developed from disobeying religous doctrine, necessarily. Just the feeling of guilt. Medicine*Woman seem to indicate that her idea of atheism did not allow for the feeling of guilt, and I wanted her to correct my assumption or expand on her assertion.
Oh okay.
CutsieMarie89
10-23-08, 05:20 PM
Your point being??
You obviously have a working definition of "guilt".
Do you think a dog may experience it?
I do not.
You don't think dogs feel bad about choices they've made or things they've done when they know they shouldn't have done something? I disagree.
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:24 PM
You don't think dogs feel bad about choices they've made or things they've done when they know they shouldn't have done something? I disagree.
"Feel bad"?
No.
Although I can't cite any studies to back it up, my hypothesis would be that christians are more likely to have "unresolved guilt" than atheists; otherwise they wouldn't need to image that there's a magic father-figure in charge of the universe who is able to forgive them for all the bad things they have done. When you're an atheist and you do something bad, there's really no way to undo it other than trying to actually fix whatever harm you did. When you're a christian, you can just say "Oh well, god forgives me!" and move on. Thus people who felt a lot of guilt about things would likely be drawn to christianity.
Firstly: how does the theist reconcile such behaviour?
Secondly: why is reconciliation necessary?
As an atheist,I'd be happy to answer your question, but I'm unsure as to what exactly you mean.
If by unresolved you mean unsolved, or undecided, uncertain. Then your barking up the wrong tree, Atheism is what you are from the onset, Atheist have no need to solve or decide anything unless they had been indoctrinated into a religion, those Atheist have used there reason, intellect and solved(and by solved I don't mean it was any kind of problem/difficulty, common sense isn't rocket science) and decided there stance, and thus left the (religious cult name here ).
But as for guilt, Why would they have any guilt? what is there to feel guilty about?
They have decided that there is no reason to hold a belief in a god/gods, because a belief in god/gods is irrational and unreasonable.
Do you support geeser's statement, Glaucon?
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:35 PM
Do you support geeser's statement, Glaucon?
Well, there are a number of statements there, but if you mean do I agree that an atheist has no need to feel guilt, then I concur.
Your point being??
You obviously have a working definition of "guilt".
Do you think a dog may experience it?
I do not.
This discussion of dogs is either important or ridiculous, I don't know which. The thread was intended to address guilt and this guilt does not have to be connected to religion. I hope that clarifies my definition of guilt.
Well, there are a number of statements there, but if you mean do I agree that an atheist has no need to feel guilt, then I concur.
Most people (except perhaps psychopaths) will feel guilt about various things. The main difference is that atheists are only likely to feel guilty if they believe that they have really harmed someone, rather than feeling guilty about "victimless sins" (like eating some particular food, having sex, etc.) that's are forbidden "because god doesn't like it" even though they don't actually harm anyone in any clear way.
Another difference is that atheists don't believe that they can be magically absolved of their guilt by getting forgiveness from god. Christianity appears to offer people who feel guilty a magic pass to feeling better again; just ask forgiveness from god, repent, and everything is better! I suspect that people who felt guilty would be more likely to turn christian, rather than the other way around.
(Apologies if I'm being narrow-minded by equating theism to christianity, I realize that of course there are other religion).
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:50 PM
Most people (except perhaps psychopaths) will feel guilt about various things. The main difference is that atheists are only likely to feel guilty if they believe that they have really harmed someone, rather than feeling guilty about "victimless sins" (like eating some particular food, having sex, etc.) that's are forbidden "because god doesn't like it" even though they don't actually harm anyone in any clear way.
Another difference is that atheists don't believe that they can be magically absolved of their guilt by getting forgiveness from god. Christianity appears to offer people who feel guilty a magic pass to feeling better again; just ask forgiveness from god, repent, and everything is better! I suspect that people who felt guilty would be more likely to turn christian, rather than the other way around.
(Apologies if I'm being narrow-minded by equating theism to christianity, I realize that of course there are other religion).
I would agree with the vast majority of what you said.
Do note however, that i said "... need to feel guilt... ".
Well, there are a number of statements there, but if you mean do I agree that an atheist has no need to feel guilt, then I concur.
Could you expand upon the statement you make when you say "no need"?
I would agree with the vast majority of what you said.
Do note however, that i said "... need to feel guilt... ".
I agree that an atheist doesn't necessarily have to feel guilt, I was just trying to remind everyone that our hypothetical atheist who is able to stop feeling guilty about things generally doesn't really exist. I didn't feel any less guilty about doing things that I considered "bad" after I became an atheist, although the list of things that I considered to be "bad" got a bit shorter.
glaucon
10-23-08, 05:57 PM
I agree that an atheist doesn't necessarily have to feel guilt, I was just trying to remind everyone that our hypothetical atheist who is able to stop feeling guilty about things generally doesn't really exist.
...
Right.
And it's a good observation too.
Not that I want to digress too far here, but I would say that, to a degree, remorse is a natural human response, and therefore, sooner or later most of us are going to experience it.
Could you expand upon the statement you make when you say "no need"?
As in, we are not compelled by any emotion or reason to subject ourselves to it.
How do atheist internally reconcile their behavior when they harm another, or themselves for that matter? This could include failure and mistakes.What has that to do with unresolved guilt and belief in a god/gods.
But to give you an answer, are you suggesting that Atheist cant be moral or ethical, when no one else is around, as thats how it appears.
Yes I don't doubt that Atheist have hurt others and themselves, but it would be extremely rare, without a dogma to follow, Atheist have no reason to harm, there is nothing inciting them to do that. thus no need to reconcile anything. An Atheist does the right thing because it is the right thing, not because it is something required of him.
Betrayer0fHope
10-23-08, 06:08 PM
I had no unresolved guilt when I left theism at the young age of 7.
Rjr6,
The concept that an atheist takes an atheist stance as somehow an objection to God is embedded in the theist psyche; even the older dictionary definitions of atheist – one who denies God – implies that the atheist really knows there is a god but chooses to reject him deliberately. The theist raised from birth has great difficulty imagining how someone would not assume there is a god.
I believe the opening post somewhat reflects that theist perception.
Is Atheism a guilt response?The clear implication here is that “if I deny the existence of God” then I escape the feelings of guilt. The question has the theist assumption “well of course there is a god”, how could there not be, and proceeds from there.
In practice the answer is NO. While it still remains a fundamental issue to treat all atheists as a consistent group we can fairly safely assume that the intellectual atheist who understands the issues considers the atheist position as one of, essentially, the absence of credibility of the theist position.
Feelings of guilt for doing something wrong is entirely relative to ones value system and has nothing to do with gods as far as an atheist is concerned.
spidergoat
10-23-08, 06:55 PM
I'm an atheist, and I do feel guilty when I do something bad. I have a conscience, but no faith in a God.
Thanks for your responses
Mr. Hamtastic
10-23-08, 07:15 PM
rjr6, so, are there 6 of you?
The concept that an atheist takes an atheist stance as somehow an objection to God is embedded in the theist psyche...
And this gives an interesting insight into the mind of many theists. Since they believe what they want to be true because they want it to be true, they assume that others opperate the same way.
rjr6, so, are there 6 of you?
It is just a name.
Although I can't cite any studies to back it up, my hypothesis would be that christians are more likely to have "unresolved guilt" than atheists; otherwise they wouldn't need to image that there's a magic father-figure in charge of the universe who is able to forgive them for all the bad things they have done. When you're an atheist and you do something bad, there's really no way to undo it other than trying to actually fix whatever harm you did. When you're a christian, you can just say "Oh well, god forgives me!" and move on. Thus people who felt a lot of guilt about things would likely be drawn to christianity.
Most people (except perhaps psychopaths) will feel guilt about various things. The main difference is that atheists are only likely to feel guilty if they believe that they have really harmed someone, rather than feeling guilty about "victimless sins" (like eating some particular food, having sex, etc.) that's are forbidden "because god doesn't like it" even though they don't actually harm anyone in any clear way.
Another difference is that atheists don't believe that they can be magically absolved of their guilt by getting forgiveness from god. Christianity appears to offer people who feel guilty a magic pass to feeling better again; just ask forgiveness from god, repent, and everything is better! I suspect that people who felt guilty would be more likely to turn christian, rather than the other way around.
(Apologies if I'm being narrow-minded by equating theism to christianity, I realize that of course there are other religion).
I agree that an atheist doesn't necessarily have to feel guilt, I was just trying to remind everyone that our hypothetical atheist who is able to stop feeling guilty about things generally doesn't really exist. I didn't feel any less guilty about doing things that I considered "bad" after I became an atheist, although the list of things that I considered to be "bad" got a bit shorter.
atheism does address guilt, as you say it focuses the amount you must deal with and you must take sole responsibility for it. But that does not imply that the guilt is dealt with in a healthy way. It allows for that, apparently from your post, but if someone's internal moral code were bankrupt or conflicted by hypocrisy of human failings, how does atheism assist a person in dealing with guilt?
From some posts, atheism and guilt have no connection, others say atheists have no guilt at all, which the latter I believe to be just a misunderstanding due to sterotypes.
It seems like an acceptable and accurate answer, that atheism and guilt have no connection.
But my question could have been stated that becoming atheist is a guilt response, not necesarily the textbook definition of what an atheists would be living in a world without the concept of God.
Jan Ardena
10-24-08, 03:18 AM
What has that to do with unresolved guilt and belief in a god/gods.
But to give you an answer, are you suggesting that Atheist cant be moral or ethical, when no one else is around, as thats how it appears.
Yes I don't doubt that Atheist have hurt others and themselves, but it would be extremely rare, without a dogma to follow, Atheist have no reason to harm, there is nothing inciting them to do that. thus no need to reconcile anything. An Atheist does the right thing because it is the right thing, not because it is something required of him.
Your statement implies that atheism comes with a moral code of conduct.
An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, and a theist is someone who does believe in God, there is no moral code of conduct that accompanies those positions.
jan.
spidergoat
10-24-08, 04:13 AM
I would feel guilty if I tried to make myself believe something I strongly suspected was false. The guilt for believers comes from feeling guilty should they reject the traditions of their community and ancestors.
Thanks for your answer. What is the type of guilt associated with religion?
Sorry I'm so late getting back to you...
Didn't I already address this in my previous answer?
MW, I wouldn't bash on the guy/gal for asking a simple question. He's obviously curious about it, so why not give him a proper answer?
Cheski nailed it, by the way.
I don't think guilt has much to do with atheism. In fact, I would imagine (and this is just my feeling on it) that the particular type of guilt associated with something like religion (or lack thereof) would bring a person to religion, rather than drive them away from it. So much of religion is atonement, submission, salvation, it makes sense that religion would be a haven for those who feel they aren't living up to their potential, who have perhaps done bad things in their life, etc..
Sorry I'm so late getting back to you...
Didn't I already address this in my previous answer?
Rereading your post, I infer that guilt associated with religion is guilt caused by folks not living up to their potential or by harming another. What do you mean "associated"?
Do you mean that this type of guilt causes people to go to religion, or that religion causes this guilt in people?
Do you mean something altogether different?
Another question, in regards to the thread:
Do atheists not feel guilty when harming another person? Not living to their moral code?
I realize that you state that the tenets of atheism do not address guilt, and this is part of the reason for this thread.
Other posts have addressed this issue that everyone feels guilt, it being natural, of sorts, but I found it interesting in your post when you said "guilt associated to religion".
glaucon
10-24-08, 03:19 PM
Your statement implies that atheism comes with a moral code of conduct.
Incorrect.
At best, it implies an ethical code.
Needless to say, an ethical code of conduct has no need of metaphysical support.
Rereading your post, I infer that guilt associated with religion is guilt caused by folks not living up to their potential or by harming another. What do you mean "associated"?
Do you mean that this type of guilt causes people to go to religion, or that religion causes this guilt in people?
Do you mean something altogether different?
Ah, I see. I meant that in this society, that kind of guilt can lead to religion. I didn't mean that it resulted from religion.
Another question, in regards to the thread:
Do atheists not feel guilty when harming another person? Not living to their moral code?
Of course they do.
I realize that you state that the tenets of atheism do not address guilt, and this is part of the reason for this thread.
Other posts have addressed this issue that everyone feels guilt, it being natural, of sorts, but I found it interesting in your post when you said "guilt associated to religion".
Oh, OK. I get what you're saying. No, I didn't intend for people to take from it that I felt there was guilt that came from religion...although, on second thought, yes, I suppose there is, in some cases. Ask a Catholic, as the saying goes, right? But that wasn't my intention, however true it may be.
Your statement implies that atheism comes with a moral code of conduct.I beg to differ, I think it states that all men are the same, all have an innate morality.
An atheist is someone who does not believe in God, and a theist is someone who does believe in God, there is no moral code of conduct that accompanies those positions.
jan.But there is within man, for we are social animals.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-24-08, 07:09 PM
Wait... So the implication is being made that atheists, generally, have no sense of guilt. Doesn't a sense of guilt require a person to see that they have done something they ought not? Is the implication that atheists should feel secretly guilty for being atheists? Why?
Let us stop side stepping things and dancing about. Atheism is not a cause for guilt. Headbutting an infant-good reason for guilt. Atheism is a lack of belief in _______. When it comes to Norse Gods, I join up with the Atheists. I am christian. My God is Awesome. It's real tough to show him off to people, he quit doing call-in talent shows way back when. I have a book about him, but I try not to hit people with it, I do hit flies with it, and the occasional spider. It's nice and heavy.
Atheism, from studying it, is like a thought process, or maybe a state of being. Like a state of undress. Being in this state does not detract from someone's ability to emote.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-24-08, 07:14 PM
Wait... Are you suggesting that people feel that they have transgressed, and that God will put them on ignore, so they put him on ignore? This may have happened in some cases, but I seriously doubt that it has happened in a vast majority. Of course, I haven't done any studies into it. I think there's a "What brought you to Atheism" or something similar thread lying around in one of these trunks. :D
Simon Anders
10-24-08, 07:36 PM
guilt is specifically a machination of Religion.
Oh, no. As you would say: I disagree.
I have one atheist parent, and this parent was quite capable of a hearty guilt trip. And eventually spent some time in therapy specifically to deal with guilt. 2 generation also.
I had a dog who clearly felt guilt - and I never tried to force any religious beliefs on him. He was free to choose himself.
I know every atheist's teeth will gnash when I say this but communist regimes and individuals also wielded guilt and shame.
Think of how many guilt trips come out of the 'godless left' as the more polite members of the religious right might refer to them.
(I do not contest and with enthusiasm note that religions have been very effective at systematizing guilt and shame. Again, it seems a human compromise based on relation dynamics.)
Do you really want to say that a necessary condition for guilt is belief in God?
but perhaps I am overreading 'specifically' in the sense of 'limited to'.
scorpius
10-24-08, 10:33 PM
atheism does address guilt,
does not!
theres no book of atheist rules telling atheists what is or isnt allowed.
how does atheism assist a person in dealing with guilt?
imo everyone,(except a psychopaths maybe) knows the difference between right and wrong,how much guilt they feel for doing wrong depends on how they were brought up.
for example ,if your parents are criminals or thieves you'll most likely become a thief/criminal also and probably feel no guilt about stealing.
on the other hand, if youre brought up being honest you'll feel very guilty when doing something bad
But my question could have been stated that becoming atheist is a guilt response,
guilt response to what?
I think its more of a logical conclusion in dealing with life as reality instead of fantasy,...
once you realize that god the way its defined is Imposible to exist .
Betrayer0fHope
10-24-08, 10:36 PM
It is just a name.
Just? Isn't a name what lets us know what something is?
scorpius
10-24-08, 10:37 PM
I know every atheist's teeth will gnash when I say this but communist regimes and individuals also wielded guilt and shame.
.
you do realize that communism has nothing to do with atheism??
http://www.nobeliefs.com/facts.htm#anchor199422
Simon Anders
10-24-08, 10:40 PM
you do realize that communism has nothing to do with atheism??
http://www.nobeliefs.com/facts.htm#anchor199422
Communists tend to be athiests. So if atheists, who also happen to be communists can guilt trip and feel guilty, then one does not have to be religious to feel and try to instill guilt.
I was responding to a claim that guilt was purely a religious phenomenon.
I read your link. The fact remains that communists have a much greater tendency to be atheists than other people.
But let me ask a direct question.
Do you think guilt would end if religions ended?
(And by the way, I have communist friends, some of whom are religious some are not. Most are not. I just want to be clear that I am not saying atheists must be communists or that communists must be atheists.)
glaucon
10-25-08, 12:02 AM
Oh, no. As you would say: I disagree.
I have one atheist parent, and this parent was quite capable of a hearty guilt trip. And eventually spent some time in therapy specifically to deal with guilt. 2 generation also.
I didn't mean to imply that religion was required for guilt to be present; merely that (as you point out..) it does a good job at disseminating it.
Do you really want to say that a necessary condition for guilt is belief in God?
Not at all. And do note that I specifically did not mention "God".
I chose the word "religion" carefully.
My problem with this thread, and the POV of its creator, is that it expresses some sort of intrinsic relation between atheism and guilt. The two are clearly not necessarily related. An analogous question would be: 'Is Democracy a response to lack of confidence?' The OP doesn't seem to understand the syntactical applications of words.
So I'm still a bit vague here. Does unresolved guilt mean you ran out of gold leaf before you were done or does it mean you still have some left?
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-25-08, 01:59 AM
It means you're trapped in a gilded cage.
Simon Anders
10-25-08, 08:52 AM
So I'm still a bit vague here. Does unresolved guilt mean you ran out of gold leaf before you were done or does it mean you still have some left?
gilt
guilt
Has there been any studies done on atheists as a group to investigate unresolved guilt?
Anyone who goes to the extreme of having to make up his own history to deny that Jesus is Lord has a guilt problem because that isn't even a good reason to deny Jesus. :rolleyes:
Anyone who goes to the extreme of having to make up his own history to deny that Jesus is Lord has a guilt problem because that isn't even a good reason to deny Jesus. :rolleyes:
How exactly are atheists making up their own history ?
And even if so, how is not having a good reason for it signifying a guilt problem ?
Communists tend to be athiests.
I'm sorry? Dude, can you cite me some statistics that would demonstrate this?
Just? Isn't a name what lets us know what something is?
It has a random origin but does not have any meaning intended to be inferred or decrypted.
Ah, I see. I meant that in this society, that kind of guilt can lead to religion. I didn't mean that it resulted from religion.
Of course they do.
Oh, OK. I get what you're saying. No, I didn't intend for people to take from it that I felt there was guilt that came from religion...although, on second thought, yes, I suppose there is, in some cases. Ask a Catholic, as the saying goes, right? But that wasn't my intention, however true it may be.
What is the basis of your categorizing guilt into "types"?
What is the basis of your categorizing guilt into "types"?
Based on their causes.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-25-08, 03:24 PM
I killed a bug=I feel there is no God?
Anger response, maybe
A bug killed my lover=I feel there is no God.
I can see that happening.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-25-08, 03:25 PM
Or wait, Are you trying to say God should feel guilty for not evidencing to Atheists better?
Mr. Hamtastic
10-25-08, 03:28 PM
Your position is simply unclear, rjr6, despite your sig"theists". Perhaps you are seeking the attentions of theists, perhaps just provoking a debate over something that doesn't seem to have any grounds. What is your position, specifically?
Your position is simply unclear, rjr6, despite your sig"theists". Perhaps you are seeking the attentions of theists, perhaps just provoking a debate over something that doesn't seem to have any grounds. What is your position, specifically?
The thread topic could be interpreted as a provocation, though it originated as an honest thought/question.
This thread is simply investigating guilt and it's maybe connection with atheism, or the act of seeking and holding atheistic beliefs. Since you invoked my position, I simply don't have one, completely, I am seeking information.
I will change my sig if it is causing confusion. What is your definition of theists? If my question sounds patronizing it is not meant to. I firmly and wholeheartedly believe that confusion arising from definitions of words is at the root of most disagreements. It is really a superfulous problem that is easily corrected, allowing that both parties are not hiding behind their words.
Based on their causes.
Are there different types of guilt or different causes of guilt?
Simon Anders
10-25-08, 05:41 PM
Are there different types of guilt or different causes of guilt? Guilt is generally about something you did or something you want to do. So it atheism somehow had guilt at its root, I think one would need to show what the atheists did that they feel guilty about and in relation to whom.
Simon Anders
10-25-08, 06:26 PM
I'm sorry? Dude, can you cite me some statistics that would demonstrate this?
Best I can find so far is this:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/3712507
(you can't even read the whole article, but the abstract and the opening give some sense.
Both Lenin and Trotsky were very anti-religious and this had strong effects on Soviet and other communisms.
But you know I only raised the issue when it seemed someone was saying: end religion, guilt ends. Once we cleared up that was not what he meant, I lost interest.
Mr. Hamtastic
10-25-08, 07:31 PM
rjr6-theists implies that there are more than one of you, or you are stating it in a-smack self in the head,"Theists!"-way. My issue is that I don't know how to help you without you being more specific. It infuriates people when I say things like,"What is blue?". It's tough to answer an amorphus question. What information would you like? I think the matter of whether a study has been done has been beaten sufficiently to a pulp. Your newest question, are there different types of guilt or just different causes, can be answered simply, or with complexity. Simply guilt is one thing which can be caused by many things. A drop of complexity for you, Things which make me feel guilty probably have little or no effect on Simon Anders. Perhaps if he was my best buddy from next door who I did everything with... Even then, totally different paths to guilt. I step on a bug, I feel guilty. Does he feel guilty for me stepping on a bug? How about that he didn't stop me? Maybe he liked the squish, and feels guilty for liking it.
And I'd just like to point out to the side discussion about communists being atheists, communist governments which try to impose atheism have a hard time controlling their populace's thoughts and beliefs. Individuals who are communists are probably split between theists and atheists.
Simon Anders
gilt guilt
OK, so unresolved guilt means you feel bad about having run out of gold leaf before you were done or does it mean you still have some left?
rjr6-theists implies that there are more than one of you, or you are stating it in a-smack self in the head,"Theists!"-way. My issue is that I don't know how to help you without you being more specific. It infuriates people when I say things like,"What is blue?". It's tough to answer an amorphus question. What information would you like? I think the matter of whether a study has been done has been beaten sufficiently to a pulp. Your newest question, are there different types of guilt or just different causes, can be answered simply, or with complexity. Simply guilt is one thing which can be caused by many things. A drop of complexity for you, Things which make me feel guilty probably have little or no effect on Simon Anders. Perhaps if he was my best buddy from next door who I did everything with... Even then, totally different paths to guilt. I step on a bug, I feel guilty. Does he feel guilty for me stepping on a bug? How about that he didn't stop me? Maybe he liked the squish, and feels guilty for liking it.
And I'd just like to point out to the side discussion about communists being atheists, communist governments which try to impose atheism have a hard time controlling their populace's thoughts and beliefs. Individuals who are communists are probably split between theists and atheists.
My question on type/causes of guilt were specifically directed at jdawg, only as he used it in his explanation to the question of this thread.
And your explanation of guilt and the vagaries of it's causes does invite an entire discourse of it's own.
Simon Anders
10-25-08, 11:15 PM
OK, so unresolved guilt means you feel bad about having run out of gold leaf before you were done or does it mean you still have some left?
In a real life discussion the pun works since we hear the word(s) and can confuse them, but three times now when it's written....?
ylooshi
10-26-08, 12:59 AM
Don't have one yet, gathering information. Atheism has many sects so it would be hard to test.
First, you would probably need to define what you mean by "sect" and provide some supporting examples of these sects. Next, you would need to show what the correlation is between these alleged "sects" and the alleged "guilt" that atheists, as a group, are supposed to have.
What sort of "guilt" are you expecting to find? Why would there be any "guilt" at all?
There are, without much doubt, atheists that are "guilty" at this moment of a variety of things ranging from infidelity to murder, from gullibility to being overly trusting of others. But what would be the reason to suggest that there might be different amounts of "guilt" among atheists than theists.
Indeed, it would seem more logical to argue that atheists feel less guilt than theists since they have no supernatural agent with which they perceive a requirement to appease. Atheists do, however, still have parents, spouses, children, employers, friends, etc to appease and failure to do so can create guilt, but, ostensibly, theists have have all these entities as well, with the addition of one more: a god.
Haven't given much thought to it.
I don't disagree.
SANDMAN
01-02-09, 08:23 PM
:confused: to do or think
our mind is very powerful
think of anythig
imagine what you want
ask your self
confuse your self
get out of reality and get in
eveyrthing is blank
iceaura
01-04-09, 12:01 AM
investigating guilt and it's maybe connection with atheism, or the act of seeking and holding atheistic beliefs. I doubt most atheists have ever actively sought or held "atheistic beliefs".
I wouldn't be surprised, though, if a fair number who were raised in theistic cultures found themselves rejecting some particular kind of theistic belief at one time or another, and that reaction against an attempt at inculcating unwarranted or perverse guilt was part of that rejection.
StrangerInAStrangeLa
01-04-09, 12:50 AM
There's no such thing as atheist sects.
1111
The thread topic developed from an honest question in my attempt to understand atheist. Though it could be construed as antagonistic, agreed.
From the hip response: Have you seen a dog look guilty?
I guess all dogs look guilty.....:) .
Atheism is a belief and not a guilt because not all atheists are criminals although some of them might be...Aha-ha .
StrangerInAStrangeLa
08-10-09, 12:12 AM
-=-
Atheism is not a belief.
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