No Birth Control for You!

[Orleander]

I have no problem with them not selling what they don't ant to sell. But I'm glad the one store is in deep trouble for not transferring the woman's prescription.
Seriously, I would have thought ALL pharmacies here in the US didn't have to sell what they didn't want to.

New Va. pharmacy won’t sell any contraceptives (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27311596/)

CHANTILLY, Va. - A new drug store at a Virginia strip mall is putting its faith in an unconventional business plan: No candy. No sodas. And no birth control.

Divine Mercy Care Pharmacy is among at least seven pharmacies across the nation that are refusing as a matter of faith to sell contraceptives of any kind, even if a person has a prescription. States across the country have been wrestling with the issue of pharmacists who refuse on religious grounds to dispense birth control or morning-after pills, and some have enacted laws requiring drug stores to fill the prescriptions.

In Virginia, though, pharmacists can turn away any prescription for any reason.

“I am grateful to be able to practice,” pharmacy manager Robert Semler said, “where my conscience will never be violated and my faith does not have to be checked at the door each morning.”

Semler ran a similar pharmacy before opening the new store, which is not far from Dulles International Airport. The store only sells items that are health-related, including vitamins, skin care products and over-the-counter medications.

On Tuesday, the pharmacy celebrated a blessing from Arlington Bishop Paul S. Loverde. While Divine Mercy Care is not affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church, it is guided by church teachings on sexuality, which forbid any form of artificial contraception, including morning-after pills, condoms and birth control pills, a common prescription used by millions of women in the U.S.

“This pharmacy is a vibrant example of our Holy Father’s charge to all of us to wear our faith in the public square,” said Loverde, who sprinkled holy water on the shelves stocked with painkillers and acne treatments. “It will allow families to shop in an environment where their faith is not compromised.”

The drug store is the seventh in the country to be certified as not prescribing birth control by Pharmacists for Life International. The anti-abortion group estimates that perhaps hundreds of other pharmacies have similar policies, though they have not been certified.

Earlier this year in Wisconsin, a state appeals court upheld sanctions against a pharmacist who refused to dispense birth control pills to a woman and wouldn’t transfer her prescription elsewhere. Elsewhere, at least seven states require pharmacies or pharmacists to fill contraceptive prescriptions, according to the National Women’s Law Center. Four states explicitly give pharmacists the right to turn away any prescriptions, the group said.

The Virginia store’s policy has drawn scorn from some abortion rights groups, who have already called for a boycott and collected more than 1,000 signatures protesting the pharmacy.

“If this emboldens other pharmacies in other parts of the state, it could really affect low-income and rural women in terms of access,” said Tarina Keene, executive director of the Virginia chapter of the National Abortion Rights Action League.

Robert Laird, executive director of Divine Mercy Care, believes many of the estimated 50,000 Catholics within a few miles of the store will support its mission and make up for the roughly 10 percent of business that contraceptives represent in a typical pharmacy.

Whether Catholics will be drawn to the pharmacy is uncertain. According to a Gallup poll published last year for an extensive study of U.S. Catholicism called American Catholics Today, 75 percent of U.S. Catholics said you can still be a good Catholic even if you don’t obey church teachings on birth control.

Catherine Muskett said she plans to shop at the drug store even though she lives more than 20 miles away.

“Obviously it’s good to support pro-life causes. Every little bit counts,” said Muskett, one of about 75 people who crowded into the tiny shop for Tuesday’s ceremony.

[CutsieMarie89]

I didn't know pharmacies could do that, best to stick with the secular one's I guess places like Wal-mart, Longs, Rite-Aid...etc. Birth control has more than one use though. Their unchecked consciences could be causing women pain. But it can't be the only drug store, right?

[Orleander]

There is only 1 drug store in the town I grew up in. I wonder if you could get a prescription through the hospital. I get some meds through mail order.

[Michael]

I heard the Scientologists are opening Pharmaceutics that don't sell any anti-depression or anti-psychotic medicines. Sceincauticals

[Orleander]

What pharmacist thinks the meds don't work? The Catholics aren't selling birth control because they do work

[Asguard]

rediculas, these stores should have there licences pulled.

Your either a medical practitioner or your not, if you are you follow the pts wishes in there care NOT your own idiology.

[Orleander]

Pharmacists don't have patients. They have customers.

[Asguard]

same difference, they have a duty of care to there "customers", can i just point out that if a pharmist doesnt explain the possable side effects and check for contridictor meds or other signs of an incorect perscription they can be charged. Higher duty of care than your local Big W wouldnt you say?

[Orleander]

Uh-Huh. And what does that have to do with deciding what they will and won't sell in their pharmacy?

[Asguard]

i was just pointing out that a pharmasy isnt concidered to be "just a shop"

You hit the nail on the head, what if there is only one pharmacy in a country town, should they decide for the whole town wether they are alowed birth control? how about wether they can have acney seeing as the pill is proscribed as a front line treatment for that in women

what about rape victoms, should they decide if they can have the morning after pill?
what about HIV meds? should they decide that?
what about anti depressents?

NO, they shouldnt to any of these

[cosmictraveler]

That Pharmacy is in deep shit if she wanted to take them to court. If I were her I would seek an attorney ASAP.

[swarm]

A pharmacist should not be second guessing a Dr.s perscription based on what Liberace says, er I mean the pope.

[JDawg]

What about women that are prescribed birth control as a way to control their cycle? There are many uses for the Pill other than birth control. Just goes to show how ignorant most religious folks are.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

This is the kind of stupidity among christians that suggest the stereotypes are true. That's like opening a Jehovah's Witness Hospital-they never need blood at least! It's one thing to live what you believe, it's another to try and inflict it on other people.

GAH! and it's in my own damned state! <disgust/nausea>

[Mr. Hamtastic]

What is somewhat maddening, is there is an equally extreme group marching against these cracked nuts. I'm pro-choice and all, but the people this is talking about are the same shitty kitties that tried to give my 7 year old daughters pamphlets about,"Myths about Abortion" outside Wal-mart a few months ago. Haven't considered striking a woman too many times, but that was one where I gave it careful consideration. My babies did me proud, both threw the pamphlets on the ground in front of the lady, Marie sez to her,"Why don't you go do something useful like pick up some trash", pointing at the pamphlet she threw on the ground. Probably saved that woman's life, because I was mad and demedicated-bad combination.

[JDawg]

This is the kind of stupidity among christians that suggest the stereotypes are true. That's like opening a Jehovah's Witness Hospital-they never need blood at least! It's one thing to live what you believe, it's another to try and inflict it on other people.

GAH! and it's in my own damned state! <disgust/nausea>

And that's where the problem begins, Hammy. It would be one thing if every Christian was like you--I'd allow even a step further in their ardent following of the religion--but they aren't. So many of them think they have a right to enforce their own rules on society. Society isn't religious for the most part. Not this one, anyway. That's why there is a looming atheist movement, and I dig it; not because I think all atheists should get together and build an achurch (get it?) but because it's time atheists spoke up and said enough.

[visceral_instinct]

They SHOULD be made to sell what they don't want to sell if that is birth control.

They don't like it, they shouldn't work there.

[CutsieMarie89]

Birth control can cause abortions, but the chance of that happening is extremely small and it happens before a woman even knows she's pregnant. It doesn't kill the zygote or anything it just keeps the lining really thin so the zygote has nothing to attach on to. But that's rare because if you are on birth control chances are you never ovulated to begin with.

[Lori_7]

People could always stop fucking unless they want to have kids.

[JDawg]

Birth control can cause abortions, but the chance of that happening is extremely small and it happens before a woman even knows she's pregnant. It doesn't kill the zygote or anything it just keeps the lining really thin so the zygote has nothing to attach on to. But that's rare because if you are on birth control chances are you never ovulated to begin with.

I don't think that's the issue, is it? I thought it was simply that Christians don't believe in contraception.

[JDawg]

People could always stop fucking unless they want to have kids.

No they couldn't. They never have, and they should not be expected to.

[Lori_7]

No they couldn't. They never have, and they should not be expected to.

why not? and yes they could. i myself have been celibate for 7 1/2 years because i don't want to have a child and i don't want to use birth control.

[JDawg]

why not? and yes they could. i myself have been celibate for 7 1/2 years because i don't want to have a child and i don't want to use birth control.

It's unnatural not to have sex, regardless of the reason. And I certainly hope you aren't expecting me to applaud your celibacy, because I think it's ridiculous.

[Asguard]

not to mention that is YOUR choice, what the fuck gives you the right to try to make it MINE

[Medicine*Woman]

why not? and yes they could. i myself have been celibate for 7 1/2 years because i don't want to have a child and i don't want to use birth control.
*************
M*W: Lori, why not? Celibacy is inhumane. Maybe you haven't found the right guy. That's understandable. Even if you don't want to have a child, why should you deny yourself a natural human need? By repressing your sexuality, you are rerouting your sexual needs in an unhealthy way. There are ways to avoid pregnancy. Are you opposed to contraception due to religious reasons? Enjoy your body. Enjoy yourself. Life is really short. I'm not saying to be promiscuous, just appreciate your natural instincts. However, I don't promote casual sex with strangers or anything, but if you were in a relationship, you might feel differently.

[JDawg]

*************
M*W: Lori, why not? Celibacy is inhumane. Maybe you haven't found the right guy. That's understandable. Even if you don't want to have a child, why should you deny yourself a natural human need? By repressing your sexuality, you are rerouting your sexual needs in an unhealthy way. There are ways to avoid pregnancy. Are you opposed to contraception due to religious reasons? Enjoy your body. Enjoy yourself. Life is really short. I'm not saying to be promiscuous, just appreciate your natural instincts. However, I don't promote casual sex with strangers or anything, but if you were in a relationship, you might feel differently.

That is probably the best response to this issue that I've read yet.

[Orleander]

They SHOULD be made to sell what they don't want to sell if that is birth control.

They don't like it, they shouldn't work there.

Its not about working there. Its about OWNING the pharmacy and not selling what you don't want to sell. They don't sell candy or soda either.
Anyone throwing a fit about their right to buy candy or a pop?


Why is that wrong?:shrug:

[JDawg]

Its not about working there. Its about OWNING the pharmacy and not selling what you don't want to sell.

Why is that wrong?:shrug:

It's not legally wrong, but a lot of people would see it as extremist. Birth control isn't illegal, and has medicinal uses beyond preventing pregnancy. There's always another drug store nearby, I suppose, if you live in the city, but it's still pretty crazy in my opinion.

[Orleander]

It's not legally wrong, ....

Is it morally wrong?

[JDawg]

Is it morally wrong?

In my personal opinion? Yes. I don't think that kind of thing has any place in society. Especially the marketplace.

[Orleander]

In my personal opinion? Yes. I don't think that kind of thing has any place in society. Especially the marketplace.

what kind of thing? Not selling what you don't want to? Should every gas station HAVE to sell beer or cigarettes or lottery tickets?

[visceral_instinct]

It's a pharmacy.

If they were for some reason opposed to, I don't know, corticosteroids, for religious reasons, would that be morally ok?

[Orleander]

It's a pharmacy.

If they were for some reason opposed to, I don't know, corticosteroids, for religious reasons, would that be morally ok?

YES! If they don't want to sell it, they shouldn't have to sell it.
If a doctor doesn't want to perform an abortion does she have to?

[visceral_instinct]

YES! If they don't want to sell it, they shouldn't have to sell it.
If a doctor doesn't want to perform an abortion does she have to?

Do you honestly believe that if someone needed a substance badly and the pharmacist refused to stock it for some bizarre 'moral' reason, that's completely fine?

What if they were the only one for miles around?

Yes she should have to, unless for some other reason like the child was developed enough to feel pain. Otherwise you could have a situation where women couldn't get abortions anywhere.

[Orleander]

Do you honestly believe that if someone needed a substance badly and the pharmacist refused to stock it for some bizarre 'moral' reason, that's completely fine?....

yes I do. A person shouldn't have to sell something just because another person wants it.

[swarm]

Lori_7
People could always stop fucking unless they want to have kids.

Good luck with that! Excuse me while I laugh myself silly.

The ones I really feel for are the few who pull it off.

[Orleander]

*************
M*W: Lori, why not? Celibacy is inhumane. Maybe you haven't found the right guy. ....

Is masturbation inhumane? Can a person be inhumane to themselves? I thought people had a varying degree of sexual desire.

And seriously "Maybe you haven't found the right guy"???
What if I said "Maybe you just haven't been to teh right church yet"

[CutsieMarie89]

People could always stop fucking unless they want to have kids.

You could do that, but that wouldn't stop my need for birth control. If a private pharmacy doesn't sell something for whatever reason that's fine, but they should tell you upfront that they don't sell it and should refer you to another pharmacy. If they are the only pharmacy in town then that might create problems, but I guess you could always order drugs online from like Walgreens.com or something, that's what I would do.

[Asguard]

Orleander

so far the only things put into legislation about doctors in general is that they are required to refer to a doctor who IS willing to perform the operation. However if you work in an emergency room and a rape victom is brought in you think they have the right to refuse the morning after pill?
NO they are employes of the state and they are required to provide it

The same for perscription meds, they are legally REQUIRED to provide them as part of there licence to run a pharmacy

Its no different from a petrol station which refused to sell PETROL, what would be the point? why would the council alow you to buy that piece of land which is zoned for a petrol station in a country area and its the only one if your not going to sell petrol?

[CutsieMarie89]

I don't think that's the issue, is it? I thought it was simply that Christians don't believe in contraception.

It's Orthodox Catholics that don't believe in contraception. Most Christians don't seem to have a problem with it, unless their die hard anti-abortion fanatics, because birth control pills can cause abortions/miscarriages because it thins out the endometrium. But other than that most Christians don't believe an ovum or sperm cell is "living" until fertilization occurs. Catholics consider all eggs and sperm potential life.

[Orleander]

Orleander

so far the only things put into legislation about doctors in general is that they are required to refer to a doctor who IS willing to perform the operation. However if you work in an emergency room and a rape victom is brought in you think they have the right to refuse the morning after pill?
NO they are employes of the state and they are required to provide it

The same for perscription meds, they are legally REQUIRED to provide them as part of there licence to run a pharmacy...

well obviously not. You would know that if you read the OP. A vast majority of pharmacists here in AMERICA aren't employees of the state. Is everything in Australia run by the state?
There are private hospitals here in AMERICA that don't perform vasectomies or tubal ligation. A woman can have a c-section in the hospital, but they won't tie her tubes while they have her open.
Please tell me all about how how illegal it is, since you know so very very much about medical law in America.

[Orleander]

...Catholics consider all eggs and sperm potential life.

and if they consider it life and life is sacred, would you make a person dispense birth control and go against their moral standards?

[Asguard]

licenced is not run orleander, oviously you cant read.

A bar is licenced and in order to open has to follow specific guidelines including not selling achole to minors or alowing them on the premisis at risk of jail time for the owner or a massive fine and loss of liquor licence

Its the same with a pharmacy, they are private companies (except hospital ones oviously) but they have certain licencing conditions

[CutsieMarie89]

and if they consider it life and life is sacred, would you make a person dispense birth control and go against their moral standards?

Of course not, like I said if it's a private pharmacy then they can do whatever they want. If a pharmacist had those personal beliefs and decided to work at a Rite-Aid drugstore then yeah I would have a problem with that, but if they open up their own pharmacy, then more power to them to sell or not sell whatever they want to as long as it isn't illegal. They can only sell potatoes and Tylenol, if it helps them sleep at night, I mean if I have a problem with them then I just wouldn't shop there.

[Orleander]

licenced is not run orleander, oviously you cant read.

A bar is licenced and in order to open has to follow specific guidelines including not selling achole to minors or alowing them on the premisis at risk of jail time for the owner or a massive fine and loss of liquor licence

Its the same with a pharmacy, they are private companies (except hospital ones oviously) but they have certain licencing conditions

LOL, yeah, its my reading skills that are the problem.

They are licensed to dispense prescribed medicines. That's it. They don't have to fill every prescription that comes through the door. Its called refusing service
Doctors are licensed as well. Does that mean every doctor HAS to perform abortions? Its called refusing service.
Bars are licensed to sell booze. Does that mean they HAVE to sell Foster's? Its called refusing to carry crap beer. :D

[Orleander]

Of course not, like I said if it's a private pharmacy then they can do whatever they want. If a pharmacist had those personal beliefs and decided to work at a Rite-Aid drugstore then yeah I would have a problem with that, but if they open up their own pharmacy, then more power to them to sell or not sell whatever they want to as long as it isn't illegal. They can only sell potatoes and Tylenol, if it helps them sleep at night, I mean if I have a problem with them then I just wouldn't shop there.

and Rite-Aid would too. But some stores work around that by having more than 1 pharmacist on duty and the other one fills those prescriptions.

[Anti-Flag]

why not? and yes they could. i myself have been celibate for 7 1/2 years because i don't want to have a child and i don't want to use birth control.

Good for you and I'm glad you're happy that way (ignore everyone else you have to do what's right for yourself).
However not everyone else feels that way and nor should they have to, they have to do what's right for themselves too.

[CutsieMarie89]

and Rite-Aid would too. But some stores work around that by having more than 1 pharmacist on duty and the other one fills those prescriptions.

Oh I thought you meant sell birth control. I would be kind of upset if all of the major drug companies stopped selling birth control pills because of their moral beliefs, because I would be in a great deal of trouble without them. Then I would have to go to out of country, which is probably illegal, but I need my high estrogen drugs.

[visceral_instinct]

yes I do. A person shouldn't have to sell something just because another person wants it.

I was referring to a NEED, not a WANT.

If someone needs a substance to maintain their health, do you honestly think it would be morally acceptable to refuse to sell it?

[JDawg]

what kind of thing? Not selling what you don't want to? Should every gas station HAVE to sell beer or cigarettes or lottery tickets?

No, they shouldn't have to. But you asked my opinion, and my opinion is that this is simply a way to try and enforce their belief system on the public. I don't agree with it. I think it's a stunt, first of all; I believe they're trying to make a statement.

Should they withhold cough syrup next because it can get you drunk? I mean, where does it end?

[Lori_7]

It's unnatural not to have sex, regardless of the reason. And I certainly hope you aren't expecting me to applaud your celibacy, because I think it's ridiculous.

i didn't say it was "natural" not to have sex. but i will say that it's extremely "unnatural" to have to wrap your dick up in latex, or take some pill to stop your ovulation before you do. i'd also say that taking a glorified vacuum cleaner to a pregnant woman's uterus is pretty fucking "unnatural".

and why in god's name would you think i was looking for applause? oh yeah nevermind, i forgot where i was for a minute...:rolleyes:

[Lori_7]

*************
M*W: Lori, why not? Celibacy is inhumane. Maybe you haven't found the right guy. That's understandable. Even if you don't want to have a child, why should you deny yourself a natural human need? By repressing your sexuality, you are rerouting your sexual needs in an unhealthy way. There are ways to avoid pregnancy. Are you opposed to contraception due to religious reasons? Enjoy your body. Enjoy yourself. Life is really short. I'm not saying to be promiscuous, just appreciate your natural instincts. However, I don't promote casual sex with strangers or anything, but if you were in a relationship, you might feel differently.

your self-indulgent preaching makes me want to vomit.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

http://maps.google.com/maps?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADBR_enUS287US288&um=1&q=chantilly+virginia+pharmacy&fb=1&view=text&sa=X&oi=local_group&resnum=5&ct=more-results&cd=1

no really. chantilly, virginia, I've been there on many occasions working. One more pharmacy among geegaws. This is much ado about nothing.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Lori-calm down... breathe... be nice to the fishies...

[Lori_7]

Good luck with that! Excuse me while I laugh myself silly.

The ones I really feel for are the few who pull it off.

the truth is that humanity for the most part are a bunch of self-gratifying mongrels who can't see past their next purchase, orgasm, fix, or meal. i'm apocalyptic-minded for my own good reasons (that are not obvious and i'm not going to go into), not to mention what's obvious. to bring a child into a world where the majority of people can't even manage to have a successful sexual relationship, they're raised by daycare centers, taught by institutions, and spewed into a lifetime of slavery to greed until they die of some disease, just because i'm lonely or bored? i would imagine my child coming out of my womb with his middle finger in the air, saying, "fuck you, you selfish bitch."

people don't deserve to fuck.

[Lori_7]

Lori-calm down... breathe... be nice to the fishies...

XOXO :shrug:

[Lori_7]

Good for you and I'm glad you're happy that way (ignore everyone else you have to do what's right for yourself).
However not everyone else feels that way and nor should they have to, they have to do what's right for themselves too.

of course. as you may infer, i'm not really into conformity. :)

[pjdude1219]

For the people who think what these pharmacists are doing is right I would like to know why you think its ok for them to force their beliefs on another?

[Lori_7]

For the people who think what these pharmacists are doing is right I would like to know why you think its ok for them to force their beliefs on another?

it's not forcing their beliefs on others, it's capitalism. not to transfer the prescription is just wrong, but to choose not to sell birth control? there's another pharmacy across the street, and if there's not, well boo-hoo then move to where there is one, order them mail order, this is america damnit.

(well, that's where i am anyway.)

the american way...

no birth control? go to school, become a pharmacist, and open up your own damn pharmacy and sell what you want to.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Pardon me while I run to the Indian quick-mart beside the adult bookstore/theater. You want something they ain't got? Go somewhere else. Duh.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Lori-Perhaps they are Afraid Of Americans. Must be big into David Bowie or something.

[Lori_7]

Lori-Perhaps they are Afraid Of Americans. Must be big into David Bowie or something.

i can not believe you just referenced that video. *spooky music* i wanna fuck trent reznor (aka psycho stalker jesus) like a hamster!

[Lori_7]

Pardon me while I run to the Indian quick-mart beside the adult bookstore/theater. You want something they ain't got? Go somewhere else. Duh.

i'm pretty sure they sell birth control at the indian quickie mart. :shrug:

[pjdude1219]

it's not forcing their beliefs on others, it's capitalism. not to transfer the prescription is just wrong, but to choose not to sell birth control? there's another pharmacy across the street, and if there's not, well boo-hoo then move to where there is one, order them mail order, this is america damnit.

(well, that's where i am anyway.)

the american way...

no birth control? go to school, become a pharmacist, and open up your own damn pharmacy and sell what you want to.
Your right this is america and no one in america. should have to put up with some whiney little shit affecting their lives simply because there too damn ignorant to tell the difference between an abortion and birth control. Your right to freedom of religion ends when it effects someone else.

[Lori_7]

Your right this is america and no one in america. should have to put up with some whiney little shit affecting their lives simply because there too damn ignorant to tell the difference between an abortion and birth control. Your right to freedom of religion ends when it effects someone else.

what are you talking about? what if someone forced you to sell used cars? :bawl:

[pjdude1219]

what are you talking about? what if someone forced you to sell used cars? :bawl:

um I am talking about the moron's who refuse to fill birth control pills. and that used car comment makes no sense. I want to know why you think it is ok for you to make a decision that affects me based on your religious beliefs.

[Lori_7]

um I am talking about the moron's who refuse to fill birth control pills. and that used car comment makes no sense. I want to know why you think it is ok for you to make a decision that affects me based on your religious beliefs.

you don't have to shop there man!!!!

[pjdude1219]

you don't have to shop there man!!!!

You still don't get it. No one should be able to affect your value judgments based on their religion. Would it be ok for a scientologist to refuse refuse to fill any psychiatric drugs? They are in essence forcing other people to live according to their beliefs which isn't right.

[Medicine*Woman]

your self-indulgent preaching makes me want to vomit.
*************
M*W: Exactly what did I say that was self-indulgent or preaching? You misconstrued my entire post.

[visceral_instinct]

the truth is that humanity for the most part are a bunch of self-gratifying mongrels who can't see past their next purchase, orgasm, fix, or meal. i'm apocalyptic-minded for my own good reasons (that are not obvious and i'm not going to go into), not to mention what's obvious. to bring a child into a world where the majority of people can't even manage to have a successful sexual relationship, they're raised by daycare centers, taught by institutions, and spewed into a lifetime of slavery to greed until they die of some disease, just because i'm lonely or bored? i would imagine my child coming out of my womb with his middle finger in the air, saying, "fuck you, you selfish bitch."

people don't deserve to fuck.

How does having a NORMAL SEX DRIVE equate to being selfish and wanting too much?!?!

It's a normal part of being human. You might have a low sex drive, the rest of us don't.

It is about more than just a want, it is also about connection, surely that's something a fucking self styled Christian like you would understand.

You might be happy being celibate. That's your choice and yours alone. Don't force your disgusting little so called morals on the rest of us.

[CutsieMarie89]

the truth is that humanity for the most part are a bunch of self-gratifying mongrels who can't see past their next purchase, orgasm, fix, or meal. i'm apocalyptic-minded for my own good reasons (that are not obvious and i'm not going to go into), not to mention what's obvious. to bring a child into a world where the majority of people can't even manage to have a successful sexual relationship, they're raised by daycare centers, taught by institutions, and spewed into a lifetime of slavery to greed until they die of some disease, just because i'm lonely or bored? i would imagine my child coming out of my womb with his middle finger in the air, saying, "fuck you, you selfish bitch."

people don't deserve to fuck.

Your a bit of a downer. What does maintaining a sexual relationship with someone have to do with daycare centers, being taught by institutions, or having a disease? No one's childhood is perfect.

[Orleander]

it's not forcing their beliefs on others, it's capitalism. ....

I agree.

How can people rant about the store owner forcing their beliefs on them when they want to force their own beliefs on the store owner.

[Orleander]

*************
M*W: Exactly what did I say that was self-indulgent or preaching? You misconstrued my entire post.

no, it was rude

[Anti-Flag]

of course. as you may infer, i'm not really into conformity. :)
Conformity is overrated. More people should decide things for themselves rather than following the crowd and not questioning what they're told.
That of course means everyone has to be more accepting of other peoples decisions as they won't always concur with their own.

[Anti-Flag]

I agree.

How can people rant about the store owner forcing their beliefs on them when they want to force their own beliefs on the store owner.

You can be against global warming and refuse to drive a car but if you own a gas station you're still obliged to supply gas. ;)

[Orleander]

You can be against global warming and refuse to drive a car but if you own a gas station you're still obliged to supply gas. ;)

So would you protest and say its immoral for a gas station that closes it pumps?

[Anti-Flag]

So would you protest and say its immoral for a gas station that closes it pumps?

I'd say it no longer qualifies as a gas station. Which would also mean in the above context it was imposing a persons beliefs on someone else who does not share them.
In the context of gas stations and other normal stores that's not really a problem; unless the law states the store purchased as a gas station must remain a gas station in which case it is in breach of the law, but when it comes to health it's a different matter. You're under obligation to do what's best for the patient. What happens if it was a different drug they refused to supply and someone’s life was at stake? Would you just shrug and say it's their beliefs so it's fine to let someone die?

[Orleander]

I'd say it no longer qualifies as a gas station. ...

You're under obligation to do what's best for the patient. What happens if it was a different drug they refused to supply and someone’s life was at stake? Would you just shrug and say it's their beliefs so it's fine to let someone die?

Its a pharmacy, not a birth control pill store. They still sell pharmaceuticals.

I can shrug because I don't think my beliefs trump other people's beliefs especially when it comes to a store and you can make them to what you want.

If I don't want to shop there I won't. They don't have patients, they have customer. Even doctors can refuse to see patients. Doctors don't see most patients who don't have insurance. That's about money, not personal beliefs. Which is worse?

[Asguard]

no orleander, they cant refuse. A doctor in NSW was working when a young child burst in and begged him to come and help his sister (who was badly injured). The GP refused and the girl died. He was latter charged with criminal negligence in that he was asked to help and refused

[Medicine*Woman]

no, it was rude
*************
M*W: Well, you misconstrued it, too. I should have prefaced my post to Lori saying, "hi, and welcome back." I meant my post in all sincerity with no intent of being rude. My point was to let Lori know that sexual activity is natural, but if it is something that she finds to be vulgar, then she is right by not having such a relationship. That's all.

[Anti-Flag]

Its a pharmacy, not a birth control pill store. They still sell pharmaceuticals.
The pill doesn't come under the collective of pharmaceuticals? Care to elaborate on this?

I can shrug because I don't think my beliefs trump other people's beliefs especially when it comes to a store and you can make them to what you want.
In other words denying someone treatmeant is fine on the basis of beliefs. It's reassuring to know letting someone die is fine if they don't fit in with your belief system.

If I don't want to shop there I won't. They don't have patients, they have customer. Even doctors can refuse to see patients. Doctors don't see most patients who don't have insurance. That's about money, not personal beliefs. Which is worse?
I'd say that also makes them customers as opposed to patients. Which IMO is inherently wrong.
Given your above statements you're presumably also fine with doctors refusing to see people on the basis of beliefs. Where exactly do you draw the line and why?

[Anti-Flag]

no orleander, they cant refuse. A doctor in NSW was working when a young child burst in and begged him to come and help his sister (who was badly injured). The GP refused and the girl died. He was latter charged with criminal negligence in that he was asked to help and refused
I could forgive him if he was already tending to someone in life threatening condition.
Otherwise he's under a duty of care to help.

That being said Asguard doesn't Australia have a national health system? And as such he has a duty of care and can't refuse. I'm not sure the same applies in America.

[Asguard]

he was a GP and therefore running a private practice (fact that they recive money from medicare is a side issue, thats is a universal insurance provider, they dont hire doctors)

and no i dont belive he was seeing a pt, he did probably have pts waiting with colds and coughs ect but they could have kept waiting.

[Anti-Flag]

he was a GP and therefore running a private practice (fact that they recive money from medicare is a side issue, thats is a universal insurance provider, they dont hire doctors)

and no i dont belive he was seeing a pt, he did probably have pts waiting with colds and coughs ect but they could have kept waiting.
I think that it being a private practice means he can legally deny treatment. Presumably though being charged with criminal negligence means he must still assess the patient? :confused:
The same would probably apply across America then.

[Asguard]

he had a duty of care to treat the pt until an ambulance arived. He would only have been able to hand over treatment to a doctor of higher skills, an emergency nurse or an ambo all of whom are trained SPECIFICALLY to deal with emergency care. He was legally required to provide care to the best of his ability untill these services became avilable (infact the ambos for example can request he stay and he would be required to continue)

[Anti-Flag]

he had a duty of care to treat the pt until an ambulance arived. He would only have been able to hand over treatment to a doctor of higher skills, an emergency nurse or an ambo all of whom are trained SPECIFICALLY to deal with emergency care. He was legally required to provide care to the best of his ability untill these services became avilable (infact the ambos for example can request he stay and he would be required to continue)

Does that apply if he is off-duty?

[Roman]

he had a duty of care to treat the pt until an ambulance arived. He would only have been able to hand over treatment to a doctor of higher skills, an emergency nurse or an ambo all of whom are trained SPECIFICALLY to deal with emergency care. He was legally required to provide care to the best of his ability untill these services became avilable (infact the ambos for example can request he stay and he would be required to continue)

That's horrible.
That poor doctor.

[Asguard]

Anti-Flag yes, anyone who asks a doctor for help in an emergency has a right to expect that help off duty or on. if you know a doc lives in your street and you bang on his door at 3am and he answers then he is legally obliged to help in a genuine emergency

Aparently what they arnt legally abliged to do is say stop at an acident unless someone has asked for there help (or they are involved in it oviously)

take for instance a medical emergency on a plane and the stewards ask "is there a doctor on board". They are legally abliged to say yes and help

Roman, why is it horible?
from a purly economic sence they get a HUGE amount of goverment money put into there training, this is the way they pay the community back for it. Of course most of us wouldnt take an economic view point. we would say, you have the training you have an ETHICAL duty to assist

[John99]

Anti-Flag yes, anyone who asks a doctor for help in an emergency has a right to expect that help off duty or on. if you know a doc lives in your street and you bang on his door at 3am and he answers then he is legally obliged to help in a genuine emergency


I am not so sure about that. Help is also making a phone call and may not include acting in a professional capacity.

[CutsieMarie89]

I don't get why is it such a big deal, this pharmacy is obviously making a statement about their ideals and yada yada... Just like any other store in US, if you don't like a store for whatever reason then just don't shop there. If your doctor prescribed a medication they might also know of alternative places to buy it. You could also hold a protest and start boycott against the store if you wanted too, I mean if it really bothered you that much...

[Asguard]

CutsieMarie89

great, what if its the only pharmacy in a town in the middle of outback australia?

[CutsieMarie89]

I've never been to the middle of the outback or even Australia for that matter, but I still don't think you can force a private business to sell something. There's always mail order isn't there? That's what I would do if I moved to outback Australia, because I have to stay on birth control pills.

[John99]

CutsieMarie89

great, what if its the only pharmacy in a town in the middle of outback australia?

Do you have an example?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Asguard-Are we talking legal or ethical or moral? Or...wait.

This pharmacy is in the US, not far from me. The outback of australia and Virginia are about as similar as my toenail is to the rings of Jupiter. I mean, if you want to play what if, we can, but I don't play fair. The situation is what it is. There are at least 10choices within 5 miles of that pharmacy. It's a gimmick, as we say around here. "Look how holy I am, I shop at the christian pharmacy" They'll make money.

What if a monkey flew out of my butt, came to your house, and made a poopie on your couch? What then?

[Asguard]

personally i have always lived in the major cities but that doesnt mean i have never been to the country.

mail order?
HA, dont make me laugh
a) you CANT get a script by mail order, its against the law to order perscription drugs over the internet ect. Even if they come in from overseas coustoms will sieze them.

b)there are LOTS of small towns with only one general store basically which serves as the post office, the pharmacy and everything else

c) the morning after pill MUST be taken with in 48 hours to be effective, you honestly think a goverment is going to alow some religious nut case to stop the surplie of a drug with such a tight window?

They will pull there licence symple as that if they find people with these sorts of practices, avilablity of contraception is concidered by the international commission on human rights, and the international convention on the rights of women to be a fundermental human right. Not to mention that the goverment would MUCH rather have this drug out there than have an increase in the abortion rates. Thats even IGNORING the use in rape cases.

For those reasons its a condition of licence that you put your "moral" views aside if you wish to own a pharmacy. You have no right to run one EXCEPT as stipulated by the licence you are granted

[pjdude1219]

I agree.

How can people rant about the store owner forcing their beliefs on them when they want to force their own beliefs on the store owner.

I don't get you people. The pharmacist is affecting the person who is trying to get their meds personal life with his choice. The birth control prescribee is not affecting the pharmacist personal life or any part of their life with their choice. Do you see the difference.

[pjdude1219]

Its a pharmacy, not a birth control pill store. They still sell pharmaceuticals.

I can shrug because I don't think my beliefs trump other people's beliefs especially when it comes to a store and you can make them to what you want.

If I don't want to shop there I won't. They don't have patients, they have customer. Even doctors can refuse to see patients. Doctors don't see most patients who don't have insurance. That's about money, not personal beliefs. Which is worse?

It a corruption of the pharmacists duties. A pharmacist should only refuse to fill a prescripition if it would harm the person.

I can shrug because I don't think my beliefs trump other people's beliefs especially when it comes to a store and you can make them to what you want. Than why are you taking the position that the pharmacists rights and beliefs are more important?

[Orleander]

It a corruption of the pharmacists duties. A pharmacist should only refuse to fill a prescripition if it would harm the person.

Than why are you taking the position that the pharmacists rights and beliefs are more important?


Because its their store. They went to college, they got the loan to put the store together, they work the hours. ITS THEIR STORE. Some of you act like its a hospital refusing treatment. Its a private store not carrying a certain product.

[Orleander]

Anti-Flag yes, anyone who asks a doctor for help in an emergency has a right to expect that help off duty or on. if you know a doc lives in your street and you bang on his door at 3am and he answers then he is legally obliged to help in a genuine emergency....

and like it was said, calling 911 is doing that.

[Orleander]

personally i have always lived in the major cities but that doesnt mean i have never been to the country.

mail order?
HA, dont make me laugh
a) you CANT get a script by mail order, its against the law to order perscription drugs over the internet ect. Even if they come in from overseas coustoms will sieze them....

We get all but 1 medication through mail order. Our insurance sets it up because it cuts out the middle man. Cheaper for them.
So you CAN get it through mail order. In fact, they even have commercials on TV that help you set it up if you are on medicare.

Australia always sounded like a wonderful place til I met you. Now it just sounds like a horrible place to live.:(

[Orleander]

[QUOTE=Asguard;2062648]...c) the morning after pill MUST be taken with in 48 hours to be effective, you honestly think a goverment is going to alow some religious nut case to stop the surplie of a drug with such a tight window?.../QUOTE]

Australian hospitals don't give rape victims the morning after pill? They make them go to a store and fill out the prescription?

[pjdude1219]

Because its their store. They went to college, they got the loan to put the store together, they work the hours. ITS THEIR STORE. Some of you act like its a hospital refusing treatment. Its a private store not carrying a certain product.

It still comes down to them trying to push their beliefs on others which is wrong. A looser set of morals can't really push them selves on to someone with a tighter but the inverse can happen. Yes they went college for it but it still doesn't give them the right to put their beliefs in front of someone else's.

[Orleander]

.... Yes they went college for it but it still doesn't give them the right to put their beliefs in front of someone else's.

and what gives others the right to put their beliefs ahead of the business owner?

[Asguard]

HAHAHAHHA
drugs advertised?:p

Another criminal offence, if its over the counter they can advertise. If its perscription they cant

Oh and how much do you pay per script?
less that $30?
less than $3?

30 is the standed price for everyone with no health care card before they reach the saftey net.

$3 is how much it cost PB to get the pill when we had a low income earners health care card

I have never reached the saftey net but i belive it reduces the cost down to $3 for non health care card people and $0 (YES FREE) for anyone with a health care card

You do realise the US tried to take australia to the WTO because "how dare we have subsidised meds, how dare US companies not be alowed to pedle ineffective and expencive drugs at the publics expence"

The rest of that action was to do with the fact that australia point blank refused to let ANY over seas blood stocks into the country. We like our blood surplies free of diseases like mad cows

[pjdude1219]

and what gives others the right to put their beliefs ahead of the business owner?

simple answer is their not. Asking someone to do their fucking job and fill a prescription is not forcing your beliefs on them. they can still not use them and rail against then.

[Orleander]

HAHAHAHHA
drugs advertised?:p

Another criminal offence, if its over the counter they can advertise. If its perscription they cant

Oh and how much do you pay per script?
less that $30?
less than $3?

30 is the standed price for everyone with no health care card before they reach the saftey net.

$3 is how much it cost PB to get the pill when we had a low income earners health care card

I have never reached the saftey net but i belive it reduces the cost down to $3 for non health care card people and $0 (YES FREE) for anyone with a health care card

You do realise the US tried to take australia to the WTO because "how dare we have subsidised meds, how dare US companies not be alowed to pedle ineffective and expencive drugs at the publics expence"

The rest of that action was to do with the fact that australia point blank refused to let ANY over seas blood stocks into the country. We like our blood surplies free of diseases like mad cows

yeah, don't believe you.

We get our meds for $10 through our insurance. We both work and don't live off other people so we pay $10. If we had no jobs or insurance we could get most prescriptions for $4.

[Orleander]

simple answer is their not. Asking someone to do their fucking job and fill a prescription is not forcing your beliefs on them. they can still not use them and rail against then.

Those people could go to another store. I don't stand in a Mormon gas station and tell them its unethical that they don't sell booze and cigarettes.

[pjdude1219]

yeah, don't believe you.

We get our meds for $10 through our insurance. We both work and don't live off other people so we pay $10. If we had no jobs or insurance we could get most prescriptions for $4.

thats only for generics.

[Orleander]

thats only for generics.

yeah, lol, I didn't say ALL meds. Generics work for me.

[Asguard]

ours are ALL meds (as long as its on the PBS):)

Oh and if its despenced in a hospital its free

http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/home

[pjdude1219]

Those people could go to another store. I don't stand in a Mormon gas station and tell them its unethical that they don't sell booze and cigarettes.

There is a big difference between booze and cigarettes and medication. Why is it ok for a store owner to push his beliefs on another person in your mind. (also on a side note their are numerous cases of pharmacists against birth control refusing to fill a birth control scripts and than not giving the script back)

[Asguard]

oh just some more infomation on the PBS, aparently if you are a citizan of the UK, NZ (oviously), the Republic of Ireland, Finland, Malta, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway or italy you can also recive PBS meds at the reduced cost in australia just by showing your passport

http://www.pbs.gov.au/html/consumer/pbs/about#d1620458e32

the reason for this?
we get the same coverage in those countries as well through there health systems:)

[Orleander]

There is a big difference between booze and cigarettes and medication. Why is it ok for a store owner to push his beliefs on another person in your mind. (also on a side note their are numerous cases of pharmacists against birth control refusing to fill a birth control scripts and than not giving the script back)

and THAT Is pushing your beliefs on someone else. And that's why a man in the OP got into lots of trouble. He refused to transfer the woman's prescription.

And why do you think he's pushing his beliefs on people by not carrying a certain product. Are Mormons pushing their beliefs on others by not doing the same?

[pjdude1219]

and THAT Is pushing your beliefs on someone else. And that's why a man in the OP got into lots of trouble. He refused to transfer the woman's prescription.

And why do you think he's pushing his beliefs on people by not carrying a certain product. Are Mormons pushing their beliefs on others by not doing the same?

do you really need the difference between medication and luxury(in the sense you don't need them) items explained to you?

[Bells]

Australian hospitals don't give rape victims the morning after pill? They make them go to a store and fill out the prescription?

Some private (Catholic) hospitals have taken to denying sexual assault victims even that.



SEXUALLY-assaulted women who seek help at Catholic-controlled hospitals cannot be referred to rape crisis centres that supply morning-after pills, under church policy.

The policy, spelt out in an 80-page ethics document, has heightened concerns among doctors and rape counsellors about the Catholic Church's growing control of hospitals.

And The Australian reveals today that another fertility centre has been told to move out by the Catholic buyers of the hospital where it is based. One prominent doctor said she had long been concerned at the church's rape policy, which is contained in an ethics document approved by the Catholic hierarchy in 2001.

The Code of Ethical Standards, compiled by Catholic Health Australia, says direct referral of raped women to centres that offer the morning-after pill "should only occur if reasonable steps have been taken to exclude the likelihood of pregnancy".

Senior Catholic spokesmen defended the policy as a logical and ethical extension of the church's opposition to the morning-after pill, which it considers morally no different to abortion. But Melbourne GP and medical broadcaster Sally Cockburn said she was "blown out of the water" when she read the policy.

"If this is the way their staff are mandated to behave, then I don't believe rape victims should be taken to their hospitals at all," Dr Cockburn said.

"They have no right to make us follow their point of view, and if they're going to be taking over more hospitals, I'm concerned."

Karen Willis, of the NSW Rape Crisis Centre, said it was standard practice for a raped woman to be offered the morning-after pill, if there was a real risk of her becoming pregnant with her attacker's child. "To not offer someone the morning-after pill would be negligence as far as we are concerned," she said.

Catholic-controlled health organisations control more than 70 hospitals in Australia - and added one more this week, the Wesley Hospital in Townsville.

-----------------------------------------------

Catholic Health Australia chief Francis Sullivan said that as well as private hospitals, Catholic organisations ran 21 public hospitals around the nation that would also have to follow the ethics policy.

Mr Sullivan said health workers in Catholic hospitals "are not prevented from giving information" about abortion, the morning-after pill or any other treatment.

"The only restriction would be that the staff are not permitted to directly refer women to abortion services," he said.

Catholic health ethics spokesman Bishop Anthony Fisher said the ban was a logical extension of the church's position on use of the morning-after pill.

(Source) (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21040473-421,00.html)


And to answer your question, no. Hospitals usually dispense their medication free of charge to patients. So if a woman was raped and taken to a hospital (hopefully, not a Catholic controlled one), she would be offered the morning after pill (as in the medication itself and not just a script) and then given counseling and then referred to a rape crisis center for further counseling.

[Bells]

and THAT Is pushing your beliefs on someone else. And that's why a man in the OP got into lots of trouble. He refused to transfer the woman's prescription.

And why do you think he's pushing his beliefs on people by not carrying a certain product. Are Mormons pushing their beliefs on others by not doing the same?

While he might refuse to carry the product due to his religious beliefs, he has no right to withhold the prescription or forward it to a pharmacy that does carry it. That does equate to pushing his beliefs on his customers.

[Bells]

People could always stop fucking unless they want to have kids.

Of course.

But that does not detract from the fact that birth control pills are not just used as birth control. They are also frequently used to control a woman's period.. especially in cases where she has severe bleeding issues in her menstrual cycle, which can endanger her life. They are also used quite a bit in the treatment of bad hormonal acne.

So lets say only one pharmacy in a small town and a woman (or a teenage girl) has severe menstruation symptoms and the doctor prescribes the pill to help her control her periods. And the pharmacy refuses to dispense or carry them because its owner finds that the product goes against his/her religious beliefs. What then? In such instances, it is highly unethical to deny the woman with the treatment she so desperately needs. What about a similar instance, but there are several pharmacies in the area and the one you go to refuses to not only forward the prescription to another pharmacy, but also withholds it? Again, it is highly unethical and could endanger the woman's health (be it her physical health, but also endanger her reproductive health).

[Asguard]

bells i can assure you that the guidelines for every ambulance service i have studied in australia is to bring rape victoms to the trauma centers which are ALL public hospitals. As the cops call the ambos when they get a rape case the pt would be going to a public hospital.

The only problem with that is the women who dont call an ambulance (or the cops) and just take themselves to the hospital. Sadly these tend to be the most vulnerable, women who have probably been raped by there regular partner, less well educated ect.

[JDawg]

i didn't say it was "natural" not to have sex. but i will say that it's extremely "unnatural" to have to wrap your dick up in latex, or take some pill to stop your ovulation before you do. i'd also say that taking a glorified vacuum cleaner to a pregnant woman's uterus is pretty fucking "unnatural".

and why in god's name would you think i was looking for applause? oh yeah nevermind, i forgot where i was for a minute...:rolleyes:

First of all, wrapping my junk in latex allows me to have sex with minimal risk. Secondly, abortion isn't unnatural at all. We see mothers kill their young in every species on this planet. For one reason or another.

[CutsieMarie89]

HAHAHAHHA
drugs advertised?:p



You mean there aren't any drug advertisements? I can't even imagine a world like that. Drugs are advertised everywhere I go.

[CutsieMarie89]

Of course.

But that does not detract from the fact that birth control pills are not just used as birth control. They are also frequently used to control a woman's period.. especially in cases where she has severe bleeding issues in her menstrual cycle, which can endanger her life. They are also used quite a bit in the treatment of bad hormonal acne.

So lets say only one pharmacy in a small town and a woman (or a teenage girl) has severe menstruation symptoms and the doctor prescribes the pill to help her control her periods. And the pharmacy refuses to dispense or carry them because its owner finds that the product goes against his/her religious beliefs. What then? In such instances, it is highly unethical to deny the woman with the treatment she so desperately needs. What about a similar instance, but there are several pharmacies in the area and the one you go to refuses to not only forward the prescription to another pharmacy, but also withholds it? Again, it is highly unethical and could endanger the woman's health (be it her physical health, but also endanger her reproductive health).

Their beliefs are only grounded on partial logic, but as it's a private business they shouldn't be forced to sell anything they don't want to even if they have stupid reasons for doing so. i have to stay on birth control so I'm one of the women out there who isn't taking it to prevent pregnancy, i would be upset and frustrated sure, but it isn't the only pharmacy. There are more sane people out there.

[Asguard]

as i said its against the law to advertise a drug (to the general public anyway) that is provided perscription only. If you have a condition you go to the doctor to decide on a course of treatment (depending on your age in general makes a difference to how much control the pt wishes over this) and the doctor will suggest medications (or other treatment) that are avialable.

About the only perscription type of treatments that are advertised are lasic eye surgury, hair replacement (and removal) and impertance treatments but these are medical CLINICS, not drug companies advertising.

Over the counter meds are advertised but not pharmacy only meds (like the morning after pill for instance) and percription only (antibotics ect)

even gardicil which was developed here is hardly ever mentioned by name (its just called the cervical cancer vacine) and its mainly mentioned in news reports about how dumb the US can be (for instance reports of people not getting there girls vacinated so that they wont have sex)

[CutsieMarie89]

There is nothing, but advertisements for all kinds of drugs here. Regardless if they are prescription only or not. Every other commercial is a drug commercial even drugs like male enhancement, birth control, allergy, asthma, osteoporosis,...etc. i've never seen a tv commercial for emergency contraception, but i've seen ads in magazines and stuff.

[Orleander]

While he might refuse to carry the product due to his religious beliefs, he has no right to withhold the prescription or forward it to a pharmacy that does carry it. That does equate to pushing his beliefs on his customers.

I agree. That is not what this particular store owner is doing. And store owners who have done so (as was mentioned in the OP) have been hauled into court.

[Orleander]

....So lets say only one pharmacy in a small town and a woman (or a teenage girl) has severe menstruation symptoms and the doctor prescribes the pill to help her control her periods. And the pharmacy refuses to dispense or carry them because its owner finds that the product goes against his/her religious beliefs. What then? ....

Then the hospital dispenses them. Or the doctor dispenses them.

[Orleander]

as i said its against the law to advertise a drug (to the general public anyway) that is provided perscription only. ...

yeah so. It has no bearing on this story

[Bells]

bells i can assure you that the guidelines for every ambulance service i have studied in australia is to bring rape victoms to the trauma centers which are ALL public hospitals. As the cops call the ambos when they get a rape case the pt would be going to a public hospital.

The only problem with that is the women who dont call an ambulance (or the cops) and just take themselves to the hospital. Sadly these tend to be the most vulnerable, women who have probably been raped by there regular partner, less well educated ect.


Catholic Health Australia chief Francis Sullivan said that as well as private hospitals, Catholic organisations ran 21 public hospitals around the nation that would also have to follow the ethics policy.

So no, you cannot make such an assurance.

I agree. That is not what this particular store owner is doing. And store owners who have done so (as was mentioned in the OP) have been hauled into court.
And so they should be. While they may be against "birth control" because of religious beliefs, they are also penalising and endangering women who need to take the pill for reasons that does not include birth control.

Then the hospital dispenses them. Or the doctor dispenses them.
Depends on the hospital (ie. find out whether a religious group runs the nearest public and/or private hospital). And yes, the doctor can prescribe it, which you then need to take to a pharmacist to have the prescription filled out. But usually if you go to a hospital, it is given to you and to a doctor, it is prescribed to you.

[Asguard]

bells they have no right to put there guidelines into place at public hospitals as far as im awear. The staff are employed by the state and as such MUST follow health department guidelines.

However i will be willing to check that next week (when i have my law lecture)

[swarm]

CutsieMarie89
There is nothing, but advertisements for all kinds of drugs here.

There is a loophole in the law which allows "information" ads.

[Pronatalist]

People could always stop fucking unless they want to have kids.

Nah, that's too simple. Liberals like to complicate things with ridiculous "plans" that can't possibly work.

So we end up with a bewildering array of shoddy Big Pharma contraceptive potions and poisons, all of which are unsatisfactory and have "failure" rates, because humans were never designed to use "birth control."

Of course people should want children, "blessings from God," so if married, fuck more.

[Asguard]

actually thats symply not true. Bonbo's (our closest relitives) uses sex to bond the tribe, not purly for procriation. Futher more the human body cant sustain perpetual pregancy. Not to mention that contraception was around in Rome and before, much longer than christan nuts:)

[CutsieMarie89]

actually thats symply not true. Bonbo's (our closest relitives) uses sex to bond the tribe, not purly for procriation. Futher more the human body cant sustain perpetual pregancy. Not to mention that contraception was around in Rome and before, much longer than christan nuts:)

That's true the body of a human woman does not sustain several pregnancies back to back well. It puts too much strain on the organs and the body. There should be somewhere around an 18 month gap in between children. Do it to often and to many times and your body will start to terminate pregnancies or just stop menstruating all together, until the body deems itself healthy again. That's what happened to the some (three) women that were treated at the clinic I worked at. Contraception like abortion has been around since the dawn of time, it's just gotten more sophisticated and of course much much more reliable as technology continues to improve.

[Orleander]

.... Not to mention that contraception was around in Rome and before, much longer than christan nuts:)

and so was infanticide.

[Asguard]

so?

so was slavery, sexual slavery, ect

there is also a lot of good things i could name as well
sexual freedom of women and acceptance of homosexuality being 2 of them

whats your point?
because its predates the christan nut cases who think they own morality its wrong?

[Orleander]

actually thats symply not true. Bonbo's (our closest relitives) uses sex to bond the tribe, not purly for procriation. Futher more the human body cant sustain perpetual pregancy. Not to mention that contraception was around in Rome and before, much longer than christan nuts:)

so?

so was slavery, sexual slavery, ect

there is also a lot of good things i could name as well
sexual freedom of women and acceptance of homosexuality being 2 of them

whats your point?
because its predates the christan nut cases who think they own morality its wrong?

[Lori_7]

Of course.

But that does not detract from the fact that birth control pills are not just used as birth control. They are also frequently used to control a woman's period.. especially in cases where she has severe bleeding issues in her menstrual cycle, which can endanger her life. They are also used quite a bit in the treatment of bad hormonal acne.

So lets say only one pharmacy in a small town and a woman (or a teenage girl) has severe menstruation symptoms and the doctor prescribes the pill to help her control her periods. And the pharmacy refuses to dispense or carry them because its owner finds that the product goes against his/her religious beliefs. What then? In such instances, it is highly unethical to deny the woman with the treatment she so desperately needs. What about a similar instance, but there are several pharmacies in the area and the one you go to refuses to not only forward the prescription to another pharmacy, but also withholds it? Again, it is highly unethical and could endanger the woman's health (be it her physical health, but also endanger her reproductive health).

i think it's unethical to withhold the prescription...that's bullshit. but i really don't think that anyone should be forced to sell something they don't want to sell for whatever reason, religious or not. lots of people have to go to some lengths to receive medical care and prescriptions for various things, so move if you want, travel if you want, have your doctor order them for you. i don't think that's really the issue here. i think people really just want to get their panties in a bunch about religion. everybody gotta be offended. both sides.

[Lori_7]

You still don't get it. No one should be able to affect your value judgments based on their religion. Would it be ok for a scientologist to refuse refuse to fill any psychiatric drugs? They are in essence forcing other people to live according to their beliefs which isn't right.

no, you still don't get it. no one is forcing any value judgements. no one is forcing you to stop using birth control. just buy it somewhere else! no one should be forced to buy something they don't want to buy, believe something they don't want to believe, OR to sell something that they don't want to sell!

this is america man, and as much as i hate religion, this is supposed to be a free country. there's a supply and a demand for everything under the sun, and if you're not getting what you need where you are, then go somewhere else and get it! you're a hypocrit if you think you have a right to force some religious zealot to sell birth control if they don't want to sell it. they own the business. in this country you can open up your own business as competition.

[Lori_7]

*************
M*W: Exactly what did I say that was self-indulgent or preaching? You misconstrued my entire post.

because it's just so pompous of you to decide that i need your counseling. i am a grown woman and have my reasons for doing what i do. trust me when i say that celibacy is not something you engage in on a whim. the way you speak to people sometimes is very condescending. i know what i'm doing ok?

[Lori_7]

How does having a NORMAL SEX DRIVE equate to being selfish and wanting too much?!?!

It's a normal part of being human. You might have a low sex drive, the rest of us don't.

It is about more than just a want, it is also about connection, surely that's something a fucking self styled Christian like you would understand.

You might be happy being celibate. That's your choice and yours alone. Don't force your disgusting little so called morals on the rest of us.


what you've said here is idiotic. what i've decided is not moral. i would in no way suggest that anyone else does what i'm doing unless it's what they have decided to do for their own REASONS. i in no way suggested that sex is not a normal part of being human. DUH. and i do NOT have a low sex drive. lol.

some of you people out here on this forum are so fucking defensive you can't even appreciate anything about anyone else who differs from you in any way.

it's not only frustrating, it's a damn shame. don't be so insecure instinct boy.

[Lori_7]

Your a bit of a downer. What does maintaining a sexual relationship with someone have to do with daycare centers, being taught by institutions, or having a disease? No one's childhood is perfect.

excuse me. i'm idealistic and obsessive. it's my problem and so i deal with it.

[pjdude1219]

no, you still don't get it. no one is forcing any value judgements. no one is forcing you to stop using birth control. just buy it somewhere else! no one should be forced to buy something they don't want to buy, believe something they don't want to believe, OR to sell something that they don't want to sell!

this is america man, and as much as i hate religion, this is supposed to be a free country. there's a supply and a demand for everything under the sun, and if you're not getting what you need where you are, then go somewhere else and get it! you're a hypocrit if you think you have a right to force some religious zealot to sell birth control if they don't want to sell it. they own the business. in this country you can open up your own business as competition.

so in addition to be in favor of pushing beliefs on people your reading comprehension sucks as well. I said affect value judgements not force value judgements.

you're a hypocrit if you think you have a right to force some religious zealot to sell birth control if they don't want to sell it. you don't get. In this country your not allowed to force your beliefs on someone else.

[John99]

you don't get. In this country your not allowed to force your beliefs on someone else.

Take your own advice scooter.

[Lori_7]

so in addition to be in favor of pushing beliefs on people your reading comprehension sucks as well. I said affect value judgements not force value judgements.

you don't get. In this country your not allowed to force your beliefs on someone else.

so what you're saying is that you're so mindless and spineless that if you can not purchase birth control in a particular pharmacy that you would then have to become indoctrinated into the religion that the pharmacy owner is part of?

and by the way, you totally just contradicted yourself...like one sentence after another. that was cool.

[John99]

Fascist pretending to be liberals. I am sure that at some point Pol Pot called himself a liberal as well.

[pjdude1219]

Take your own advice scooter.

How am I trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I just want people to do their jobs.

[pjdude1219]

so what you're saying is that you're so mindless and spineless that if you can not purchase birth control in a particular pharmacy that you would then have to become indoctrinated into the religion that the pharmacy owner is part of? WTF? no i am saying if i made a choices no one has the right to deny me that choice based on their religious beliefs.

and by the way, you totally just contradicted yourself...like one sentence after another. that was cool.

I didn't contradict myself.

[Lori_7]

WTF? no i am saying if i made a choices no one has the right to deny me that choice based on their religious beliefs.



I didn't contradict myself.

how are you being denied a choice? you have the choice of 87 gazillion pharmacies...one right across the street from the other. you are suggesting that a particular pharmacist should not have a choice as to what they sell.

[pjdude1219]

how are you being denied a choice? you have the choice of 87 gazillion pharmacies...one right across the street from the other. you are suggesting that a particular pharmacist should not have a choice as to what they sell.

If they have the pills the need to fill the script their beliefs be damned.

[John99]

How am I trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I just want people to do their jobs.

According to you things you believe in are not beliefs but what other people believe in are. Nice how things work out that way.

[Lori_7]

If they have the pills the need to fill the script their beliefs be damned.

why would they have the pills if they don't sell them? lol...

[pjdude1219]

why would they have the pills if they don't sell them? lol...

was never my point. i'm guessing you failed to notice when people started talking about pharmacist refusing to fill prescripitions. Though I do believe its unethical what they are doing by not carrying them it isn't illegal.

[pjdude1219]

According to you things you believe in are not beliefs but what other people believe in are. Nice how things work out that way.

no. you making shit up about me again. I explained the difference of why the pharmacist doing was forcing beliefs but the custarmer demanding the pharmacist fill the script isn't.

[John99]

It is no different than a store OWNER deciding he\she doesn't want to carry aspirin. Anyone in U.S who wants to get birth control pills knows where to get them and has no problem getting them.

I dont see too any women complaining about this so it is just you and you biases interfering with common sense.

[JDawg]

I dont see too any women complaining about this so it is just you and you biases interfering with common sense.

Oh yes, it's our biases interfering with common sense. Our biases. Certainly not the biases of the radical scumbags who decided to open the phony drugstore.

[Lori_7]

wow. and i thought religious people were bad...

i guess it just goes to show that people who want to judge, and hate, and be offended, will find a reason, or a platform, to do so, whether it's a religion, or the opposition to it.

[JDawg]

wow. and i thought religious people were bad...

i guess it just goes to show that people who want to judge, and hate, and be offended, will find a reason, or a platform, to do so, whether it's a religion, or the opposition to it.

Girl, you need to get laid. No wonder you're so angry and judgmental.

[Lori_7]

*************
M*W: Well, you misconstrued it, too. I should have prefaced my post to Lori saying, "hi, and welcome back." I meant my post in all sincerity with no intent of being rude. My point was to let Lori know that sexual activity is natural, but if it is something that she finds to be vulgar, then she is right by not having such a relationship. That's all.

ok mw, just for shits and giggles, how in god's name did you come up with an idea that? that i may think sexual activity is vulgar? that's got to be one of the most ridiculous assumtions i've ever heard. so...what highly analytical...?

[Lori_7]

Girl, you need to get laid. No wonder you're so angry and judgmental.

i'm not angry and you just judged me. ;)

[CutsieMarie89]

Oh yes, it's our biases interfering with common sense. Our biases. Certainly not the biases of the radical scumbags who decided to open the phony drugstore.

I don't understand what you guys are harping about.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

It's fear of theism, they seek to villify any theistic view they find. MW's just more rabid than others. They have a special box for her to check reality in when she blows in around here.

MW-Let's chuck capitalism aside. It's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. This is like arguing about whether it's ethical to allow Joe's Crab Shack to sell tee-shirts that say,"I got Crabs---At Joe's!". They believe X, they want to bring in customers that believe X. Or it's a very stupid way of doing evangelism.

[JDawg]

i'm not angry and you just judged me. ;)

Only because I have a secret crush on you. :shy:

But seriously...:shake:

It's fear of theism, they seek to villify any theistic view they find. MW's just more rabid than others. They have a special box for her to check reality in when she blows in around here.

MW-Let's chuck capitalism aside. It's freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. This is like arguing about whether it's ethical to allow Joe's Crab Shack to sell tee-shirts that say,"I got Crabs---At Joe's!". They believe X, they want to bring in customers that believe X. Or it's a very stupid way of doing evangelism.

First, who is "they"? Second, freedom of religion is freedom from religion. And why is it so terrible for us to not like the fact that a drugstore would go to the length of not selling contraceptives, but it's quite alright for that drug store to not like contraception? What's with the double standard?

[Orleander]

I don't understand what you guys are harping about.

me either. They are just bound and determined that someone else sell stuff they way they believe, not the way the owner believes.

[pjdude1219]

me either. They are just bound and determined that someone else sell stuff they way they believe, not the way the owner believes.

What is your problem. What is so fucking bad about me wanting people to do their fucking jobs. Your religious rights stop the moment they start interfering with other people's lives and ability to make their own choices. If these assholes had such a problem with contraceptives they shouldn't have gotten them selves into a field where they would have to give them out. They specifically went into the field of pharmacy to try and push their beliefs and that is wrong. Grow up and deal with lady.

[Orleander]

What is your problem. What is so fucking bad about me wanting people to do their fucking jobs. Your religious rights stop the moment they start interfering with other people's lives and ability to make their own choices. If these assholes had such a problem with contraceptives they shouldn't have gotten them selves into a field where they would have to give them out. They specifically went into the field of pharmacy to try and push their beliefs and that is wrong. Grow up and deal with lady.

My fucking problem is that I fucking think a fucking store owner can decide what his fucking store can fucking sell. His fucking job is not to fucking keep you fucking supplied with fucking birth control pills. You can take your fucking prescription to another fucking store and take your money fuckign elsewhere.
If you fucking walk into a fucking store and they don't have fucking vitamins, which every fucking person fucking needs, do you fucking demand that they fucking sell it because its what YOU fucking want??

So you fucking grow up and fucking deal with that lady. :p

[Roman]

And why is it so terrible for us to not like the fact that a drugstore would go to the length of not selling contraceptives, but it's quite alright for that drug store to not like contraception? What's with the double standard?

That the drugstore not supplies contraceptives as a CHOICE, as opposed to you pointing a gun at them and saying "supply these drugs."

[pjdude1219]

My fucking problem is that I fucking think a fucking store owner can decide what his fucking store can fucking sell. His fucking job is not to fucking keep you fucking supplied with fucking birth control pills. You can take your fucking prescription to another fucking store and take your money fuckign elsewhere.
If you fucking walk into a fucking store and they don't have fucking vitamins, which every fucking person fucking needs, do you fucking demand that they fucking sell it because its what YOU fucking want??

So you fucking grow up and fucking deal with that lady. :p

You go into a grocery store your not entitled to expect them to a specific brand of say cereal but you are entitled to expect them to have cereal. You go into pharmacy you have every right to expect them to fill your god damn script. I sorry you have a problem with the fact I think a pharmacy should have birth control pills. If a store is set up to sell a certain range of products it should stock ALL of the commonly purchased items. I'm sorry that little bit of logic is beyond you.



Also I know pharmacists and I have talked to them about their profession. The idea of someone in their profession doing what these people are doing appalled them. A pharmacist is there to protect you from drug interactions and to give you information so you can make informed decisions about the medication you take. The idea of controlling the kind of drugs you are able to get is not part of the job description. The ONLY ETHICAL REASON for a pharmacist to refuse to fill a birth control script is if it would harm the woman taking it.

[Roman]

You go into a grocery store your not entitled to expect them to a specific brand of say cereal but you are entitled to expect them to have cereal.

In whatever god forsaken communist state you live in, but not in America. There aren't any "supermarket cereal laws" here in the land of the free.

[pjdude1219]

In whatever god forsaken communist state you live in, but not in America. There aren't any "supermarket cereal laws" here in the land of the free.

So I am not entitled to expect a store to stock items that fall under its purview? I'm sorry but if i go into a grocery store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy groceries, if I go into a hardware store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy lumber, nails, and such things, if I walk into an electronics store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy electronics, and lastly if I walk in to a drug store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy drugs. and Yes dipstick I do live in America and YES I AM ENTITLED TO EXPECT A STORE TO SUPPLY COMMONLY GOTTEN ITEMS IN ITS PURVIEW.

[Roman]

So I am not entitled to expect a store to stock items that fall under its purview? I'm sorry but if i go into a grocery store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy groceries, if I go into a hardware store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy lumber, nails, and such things, if I walk into an electronics store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy electronics, and lastly if I walk in to a drug store I am entitled to expect to be able to buy drugs. and Yes dipstick I do live in America and YES I AM ENTITLED TO EXPECT A STORE TO SUPPLY COMMONLY GOTTEN ITEMS IN ITS PURVIEW.

You are entitled to not get shot by the government for being such an idiot, yes. You may continue to be a retard, without fear of government reprisal. But you are not entitled to sue a store for selling you cereal, no.

You're also misusing the term entitle.

[pjdude1219]

You are entitled to not get shot by the government for being such an idiot, yes. You may continue to be a retard, without fear of government reprisal. But you are not entitled to sue a store for selling you cereal, no. I'm sorry you feel me an idiot for expecting a store to stock items that are under its purview and commonly purchased but it is perfectly rational for me to expect such things.

You're also misusing the term entitle.
I'm using it according to its common usage.


Also you never answered my question. Is it wrong for me to expect a store to stock commonly purchased items that fall under its purview?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

pjdude-They also reserve the right not to serve you. :eek: Go into a supermarket you don't like, and start posting post-it notes everywhere that this store sucks. They will call the police. When the police come start talking about your right to shop there. Let us know how it goes for ya. :D

[pjdude1219]

pjdude-They also reserve the right not to serve you. :eek: Go into a supermarket you don't like, and start posting post-it notes everywhere that this store sucks. They will call the police. When the police come start talking about your right to shop there. Let us know how it goes for ya. :D

Your missing the point.

[Roman]

I'm sorry you feel me an idiot for expecting a store to stock items that are under its purview and commonly purchased but it is perfectly rational for me to expect such things.

That's different than an entitlement to expectation. Entitlement to expectation infers that you have some sort of right to be supplied with cereal from the supermarket. You have no such right.

You are merely entitled to not being persecuted by the government for your expectations. You are entitled to holding those expectations, but not the actual expectation.

[Roman]

Is it wrong for me to expect a store to stock commonly purchased items that fall under its purview?

That's not the issue being discussed.
Anyway, sure, let's say you expect a store to stock a commonly purchased item, and they don't have it stocked. Never did, never plan to.

What do you think the right course of action would be?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

I'm sorry you feel me an idiot for expecting a store to stock items that are under its purview and commonly purchased but it is perfectly rational for me to expect such things.

I'm using it according to its common usage.


Also you never answered my question. Is it wrong for me to expect a store to stock commonly purchased items that fall under its purview?

Entitled-to have a right to. Your rights as consumer trump store owner's rights? Not for a second. You have a right to ask for the privilege to enter their store to purchase items they currently own, they have a right to say no. Or does "business owner"="2nd class citizen"?

Just to reiterate... There are gobs of pharmacies within 5 miles of the place. You do realize that. You going to make the adult bookstore carry Dr. Seuss, as well?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Your missing the point.



I wish I were. I fear that you say that people don't have the right to run their business as they see fit. That is what you are saying, correct?:shrug:

[Repo Man]

Apparently, some states have called bullshit on this nonsense:

CHICAGO, April 1 -- Illinois Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich (D) issued an emergency rule Friday that requires pharmacies to accept and fill prescriptions for contraceptives without delay, after a growing number of complaints nationwide that some pharmacists are refusing to dispense birth control pills and the "morning-after" pill.

He also established a toll-free number that residents can call to report refusals by pharmacies.

Illinois Gov. Rod R. Blagojevich said pharmacists' refusal to fill prescriptions for contraceptives is not just a statewide problem.


Reproductive-rights groups heralded Blagojevich's action as the first statewide regulation to address the issue.

"We are hopeful that governors across the country will follow his lead," said Nancy Keenan, national president of NARAL Pro-Choice America.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19703-2005Apr1.html

I don't know what the regulations are here in California, but it seems that the stores that refuse to supply these things are always located in towns like Incest Mississippi and such.

[Roman]

Apparently, some states have called bullshit on this nonsense:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19703-2005Apr1.html

I don't know what the regulations are here in California, but it seems that the stores that refuse to supply these things are always located in towns like Incest Mississippi and such.

Wow. That's totally unAmerican. And fascist.
What a bunch of fucks.

[John99]

I wish I were. I fear that you say that people don't have the right to run their business as they see fit. That is what you are saying, correct?:shrug:

Yes, that is correct. Break out the hoods and pitch forks.

[Repo Man]

If you don't like (or cannot abide by) government regulations, you might want to avoid going into a heavily governmentally regulated profession.

In a similar vein, a local landlady evicted a tenant for "living in sin". She was sued, and lost. She does not have the right to evict tenants for not living up to her religious standards. My heart bleeds for her.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

How embarrassing is that. We have to legislate people out of their rights as citizen. If the pharmacists are really against birth-control, they should quit their pharmacy and go elsewhere. I tell hookers about the magical land of Nevada all the time.

If VA legislates some silly garbage in this case, I'm going to the Governor's Mansion and kicking him in the balls.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Repo Man-I wonder how things would have gone had she simply renogtiated the lease to month to month, then refused to allow renewal? Accomplishes the same thing, but nice and legal. She should have gotten a better lawyer. :D

[Roman]

If you don't like (or cannot abide by) government regulations, you might want to avoid going into a heavily governmentally regulated profession.

Just like if you're black, you might not want to move to Alabama, where the cops beat you?

Yeah, sure.

[CutsieMarie89]

Apparently, some states have called bullshit on this nonsense:


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19703-2005Apr1.html

I don't know what the regulations are here in California, but it seems that the stores that refuse to supply these things are always located in towns like Incest Mississippi and such.

I don't think there are too many pharmacies like that in California. I mean if you have a valid perscription for something I've never been to a pharmacy that won't fill it. If they don't carry it they just have it shipped from somewhere else. Glad I don't live in "Incest Mississippi" :D

[Nasor]

As others have pointed out, this is especially stupid because there are many uses for "birth control pills" other than birth control. This seems like refusing to sell knifes in your store because sometimes knives are used to stab people. What if your customer wants to buy a knife to cut his steak?

[Pronatalist]

That's true the body of a human woman does not sustain several pregnancies back to back well. It puts too much strain on the organs and the body. There should be somewhere around an 18 month gap in between children. Do it to often and to many times and your body will start to terminate pregnancies or just stop menstruating all together, until the body deems itself healthy again. That's what happened to the some (three) women that were treated at the clinic I worked at. Contraception like abortion has been around since the dawn of time, it's just gotten more sophisticated and of course much much more reliable as technology continues to improve.

That is ridiculous. All the excuses people come up with, to tamper against the natural flow of human life.

Some years ago, I hear all these stupid liberal claims, don't have children while too young, don't have children when too old, don't have children too closely spaced together. How much of that BS does one have to hear, until a logical person simply concludes, what liberals are really saying, is not to have any children at all, because they don't much really like people nor natural human population growth so much to begin with?

Such selfish anti-population people haters!

The body (or God) already sort of "knows" when to get pregnant. Mothers don't just pop out a baby, and become pregnant the very next day. There's some time to heal, before intercourse can resume, and then natural breastfeeding often delays the next natural reproductive cycle a bit.

I get so sick and tired of Big Pharma's lies, trying to forever push their experimental, shoddy contraceptive potions and poisons!

[JDawg]

That is ridiculous. All the excuses people come up with, to tamper against the natural flow of human life.

Some years ago, I hear all these stupid liberal claims, don't have children while too young, don't have children when too old, don't have children too closely spaced together. How much of that BS does one have to hear, until a logical person simply concludes, what liberals are really saying, is not to have any children at all, because they don't much really like people nor natural human population growth so much to begin with?

Such selfish anti-population people haters!

The body (or God) already sort of "knows" when to get pregnant. Mothers don't just pop out a baby, and become pregnant the very next day. There's some time to heal, before intercourse can resume, and then natural breastfeeding often delays the next natural reproductive cycle a bit.

I get so sick and tired of Big Pharma's lies, trying to forever push their experimental, shoddy contraceptive potions and poisons!

You're one of them Assembly of God people, ain't ya? :bugeye:

[Lori_7]

lots of women have died from giving birth. but you know, everybody's gonna die in some way. i think it's funny how just about everyone here (and in general) completely rejects the notion of abstinence to be an option in any circumstance. i'll tell you guys a secret, and that is i have grown immensely in an emotional, intellectual, and spiritual way, since i've been celibate. it's kind of like fasting. it's a discipline that not only encourages self-control, but forces you to focus on other aspects of yourself and your life and of others around you. removing that possibility from your relationships allows for a much different, and dare i say a better, appreciation and understanding of another human being. not to mention the physical aspect of the endeavor. as some of you have so erroneously made an assumption that my sex drive is lacking or that my lifestyle is unhealthy, i have found quite the opposite to be true. i am in love with a man who i receive affection from and i find it to be a very satisfying relationship for both of us. he agrees and he respects me.

[Lori_7]

As others have pointed out, this is especially stupid because there are many uses for "birth control pills" other than birth control. This seems like refusing to sell knifes in your store because sometimes knives are used to stab people. What if your customer wants to buy a knife to cut his steak?

then they should go to a store that does sell knives. this is getting tiresome.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Lori-Yes, they'll carry this on forever, "But what about baseballs? Someone might want to use one improperly..." Meh. This stuff goes on forever. I'm starting to think that they don't want reality. Probably offended that privately owned christian hospitals frequently don't do abortions, as well.

[JDawg]

lots of women have died from giving birth. but you know, everybody's gonna die in some way. i think it's funny how just about everyone here (and in general) completely rejects the notion of abstinence to be an option in any circumstance. i'll tell you guys a secret, and that is i have grown immensely in an emotional, intellectual, and spiritual way, since i've been celibate. it's kind of like fasting. it's a discipline that not only encourages self-control, but forces you to focus on other aspects of yourself and your life and of others around you. removing that possibility from your relationships allows for a much different, and dare i say a better, appreciation and understanding of another human being. not to mention the physical aspect of the endeavor. as some of you have so erroneously made an assumption that my sex drive is lacking or that my lifestyle is unhealthy, i have found quite the opposite to be true. i am in love with a man who i receive affection from and i find it to be a very satisfying relationship for both of us. he agrees and he respects me.

It may be fine for you, but it's not for everyone. Not everyone is wired the same way. What is easy and good for you might be really, really bad for someone else.

[Lori_7]

It may be fine for you, but it's not for everyone. Not everyone is wired the same way. What is easy and good for you might be really, really bad for someone else.

it's not easy.

and yeah, everyone is wired pretty much the same way.

not that i'm suggesting that others should behave like i do for the same reasons i do...i mean, how could they really when they're not me? it just seems like so many people are so adverse to the idea, as if suggesting it is the craziest thing ever.

[JDawg]

and yeah, everyone is wired pretty much the same way.

That's not true. Some people are more aggressive, while others are more submissive. Some people are leaders, others are followers. Some people are less interested in casual sex, while others are sexual deviants. Some people cry easily, others don't cry at all. No, we are most certainly not all "pretty much" wired the same way.

not that i'm suggesting that others should behave like i do for the same reasons i do...i mean, how could they really when they're not me? it just seems like so many people are so adverse to the idea, as if suggesting it is the craziest thing ever.

It really is that for some people. I, for one, get cranky if I don't get off at least once every few days. And if I'm in the presence of a beautiful woman, and the attraction is mutual, you'd have to tear me away from her with a goddamn tow truck.

[Lori_7]

That's not true. Some people are more aggressive, while others are more submissive. Some people are leaders, others are followers. Some people are less interested in casual sex, while others are sexual deviants. Some people cry easily, others don't cry at all. No, we are most certainly not all "pretty much" wired the same way.

well, i think alot of that is what you get used to...environmental. i know that i sure have changed over the years. by "wired" i was thinking more biological.



It really is that for some people. I, for one, get cranky if I don't get off at least once every few days. And if I'm in the presence of a beautiful woman, and the attraction is mutual, you'd have to tear me away from her with a goddamn tow truck.

yeah, that's the hard part. :)

[JDawg]

well, i think alot of that is what you get used to...environmental. i know that i sure have changed over the years. by "wired" i was thinking more biological.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Doesn't change a thing.



yeah, that's the hard part. :)

Well, some handle it better than others, obviously. I can't imagine how your man is handling it. Wow.

[Lori_7]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Doesn't change a thing.

it can and does change, as a matter of discipline. i'm saying that i've felt it, and experienced that change. if you had presented the idea to me 10 years ago when i was married i would have scoffed, but then my ideals took a turn.




Well, some handle it better than others, obviously. I can't imagine how your man is handling it. Wow.

he's awesome. and i think that it's a refreshing arrangement for him and that he's enjoying focusing on other things about me. don't get me wrong, he still appreciates me physically. like i said, we're very affectionate. i also think he has a different perspective than many. he's had a lot of pussy, and still does get it whenever he wants it as far as i know. he's not my man. he's his own.

[CutsieMarie89]

That is ridiculous. All the excuses people come up with, to tamper against the natural flow of human life.

Some years ago, I hear all these stupid liberal claims, don't have children while too young, don't have children when too old, don't have children too closely spaced together. How much of that BS does one have to hear, until a logical person simply concludes, what liberals are really saying, is not to have any children at all, because they don't much really like people nor natural human population growth so much to begin with?

Such selfish anti-population people haters!

The body (or God) already sort of "knows" when to get pregnant. Mothers don't just pop out a baby, and become pregnant the very next day. There's some time to heal, before intercourse can resume, and then natural breastfeeding often delays the next natural reproductive cycle a bit.

I get so sick and tired of Big Pharma's lies, trying to forever push their experimental, shoddy contraceptive potions and poisons!

Exactly breastfeeding in a completely natural environment would space children out at about 2 years apart, which does provide ample time for the body to heal, but people nowadays don't always breastfeed their children or if they do they usually don't do it for two years. If you don't breastfeed your child you can get pregnant again within a month and that isn't good for your body. And as I said earlier contraceptives are not only taken to prevent pregnancy. I myself take contraceptives to prevent having my organs removed, while you may prefer I live in pain every month I prefer the "Big Pharma's lies and potions and poisons. I tried the no birth control for a while, turns out they weren't lying, no birth control= immobilizing pain for me, so poison me away.

[Orleander]

They don't have to if they don't want to. End of story.....

I agree completely!! :bravo: