View Full Version : Nine Inch Nails
This is a thread to dicuss philosophy and lyrics of Nine Inch Nails. Personal meaning of songs can also be very interesting.
The link below is to an interpretation of the entire The Downward Spiral album. I thought it could be a good start.
http://www.4degreez.com/nailz/ninterpretations/downspiral.html
I know there are some dedicated fans on the forum, but even people who have never heard of NIN, please join in. I'll provide you with a link to lyrics, so you know what to talk about.
http://www.rexer.com/nin/
Hope it gets interesting.
I think that Trent Reznor is a musical genius, but I can't stand his whining. I think the link that you provided is going way over its head. For the most part NIN's lyrics are about how some girl fucked him over, how he hates himself, or how he hates society. Alright this might be oversimplifying it, but I think people read too much into it.
*Looks at Xenu as if he has gone out of his mind*
NIN does not whine anymore than Camus or Sartre whines. Anymore than Freddy N whines.
i am the voice inside your head (and i control you)
i am the lover in your bed (and i control you)
i am the sex that you provide (and i control you)
i am the hate you try to hide (and i control you)
i take you where you want to go
i give you all you need to know
i drag you down i use you up
mr self destruct
i speak religion's message clear (and i control you)
i am denial guilt and fear (and i control you)
i am the prayers of the naive (and i control you)
i am the lie that you believe (and i control you)
i take you where you want to go
i give you all you need to know
i drag you down i use you up
mr self destruct
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
you let me you do this to you (i am an exit)
i am the needle in your vein
i am the high you can't sustain
i am the pusher i'm a whore
i am the need you have for more
i am the bullet in the gun (and i control you)
i am the truth from which you run (and i control you)
i am the silencing machine (and i control you)
i am the end of all your dreams (and i control you)
i take you where you want to go
i give you all you need to know
i drag you down i use you up
mr self destruct
i take you where you want to go
i give you all you need to know
i drag you down i use you up
mr self destruct
Speaks for itself. Power as destruction, rather than power as a creative force. Freddy would call this the lowest form of power.
But this isn't about the use or possession of power - of controlling others - it is about the self destructive force that controls the narrator.
The song is basically about being controlled by one's urge to destroy onself. About the force that controls the narrator.
And....that will do for now.
*Sits quietly and waits for ubermich to post something*
NIN = white zombie wannabe.
You have it backwards, Joeman.
Metallica are Hanson wannabees
NIN does not whine anymore than Camus or Sartre whines. Anymore than Freddy N whines
I'm not necessarily saying the words themselves are whining, but how he sings them.
His actual words have the constant theme of destruction, nihilism. When I was young, this was "wow, that's how I feel", now I'm past that and am ready to create something with my life rather than tear everything apart. I still consider it good music, but can't listen to a lot of it.
He does have one song off of fragile (the one hardly anyone likes) that has positive lyrics, "we're in this together":
you and me
we're in this together now
none of them can stop us now
we will make it through somehow
Unfortunately this is one of Trent's least favorite songs, was always unsatisfied with it.
Xenu:
"I'm not necessarily saying the words themselves are whining, but how he sings them"
?Explain?
"His actual words have the constant theme of destruction, nihilism. When I was young, this was "wow, that's how I feel", now I'm past that and am ready to create something with my life rather than tear everything apart. I still consider it good music, but can't listen to a lot of it."
Jesus fuck, though, look at standard music. It's all so bloody cheerful or, if there is any consciousness of pain, it's a
"s/he left me
and now I am sad
s/he is a bitch/son of a bitch
and now I am going to whine"
If pop covers sex, it's all a
"gee, s/he is cute
I want to fuck him/her"
Or worse, they over-romanticize sex:
"when you kiss me
I dieeeee" *
Can any of it compare to the honesty and simplicity of "Closer"
i wanna fuck you like an animal
i wanna feel you from the inside
i wanna fuck you like an animal
my whole existence is flawed
you get me closer to god
you can have my isolation
you can have the hate that it brings
you can have my absence of faith
you can have my everything
help me
tear down my reason
help me
it's your sex i can smell
help me
you make me perfect
help me become somebody else
i wanna fuck you like an animal
i wanna feel you from the inside
i wanna fuck you like an animal
my whole existence is flawed
you get me closer to god
all through every forest
above the trees
within my stomach
scraped off my knees
i drink the honey
inside your hive
you are the reason
i stay alive
Come on, tell me that the part I've bolded isn't romantic. Certainly better than
"you're a woman, I'm a man
together we'll do what we can
rock me all night baby
rock me all night and day"
(artist unknown, hopefully in pain somewhere)
I mean, if it is drenched in pain, well, hey, another sign of honesty. Love is actually painfull, contrary to what the Backstreet Boys would have us believe.
Not that there aren't decent romance songs. There's Xenia's "Heartbeat":
My heartbeat is pumping**
My heartbeat is pumping
Crazy love is what we got that takes away the pain
And in my dreams I always hear your name
Running round the world I feel there's something I can't hide
And I the butterflies inside
Because my heartbeat is pumping
Baby it feels like something
I never ever thought it worked like this
Whoo my heartbeat is pumping
Baby it feels like something
I never ever thought it worked like this
I never ever fall in love
I never ever fall in love
I never ever fall in love
I never ever fall in love like this
Okay, lovely song, upbeat....yet all of Xenia's songs are like that. And note the ending - ahhhh. Either a the context has been lost when she sings it in English or the ending is deliberate.
Actually, this is her only romantic song - the rest are simply about sex.
Er, from what I can gather, most are in German though.
But most romance songs do not even BEGIN to approach Xenia's calibur.
*Note to those who have left - you cannot bring a woman to orgasm by kissing her any more than you can do so by holding her.
**Okay, so this line annoys me. It's bloody redundant.
Hi Xev,
"I'm not necessarily saying the words themselves are whining, but how he sings them"
?Explain?
Trent's voice is very whiney to me, that's all. It grates on my nerves if I listen to a lot of it.
I'm not even going to try to compare NIN to mainstream pop. In my opinion, he's on a much higher level.
However being a hard core critiquer I feel he only writes about one aspect of love, "the love sucks side". Alright, this is his shindig, nihilism, that's what he likes to write about. I respect that. But it bores me too. I hear no progression, just the same theme over and over. So I move on.
To contrast this, I'd like to praise the album "69 love songs" by the Magnetic Fields. Every song on the album is about love, but each song is from a different perspective. Sometimes it's the poppy love like you described, or the nihilistic love, or blissful love, or trucker love, or crazy love, etc. 69 different kinds of love. To me it's an amazing piece of work. The boxed set contains a huge interview that details the thought processes of each song.
It grows with me, song by song.
ubermich
07-02-02, 12:55 AM
*towers into the room. glares menacingly.*
I CANT BELIEVE YOU CALL YOURSELF NIN FANS. ONLY XEV HAS HER HEAD ON STRAIGHT. CHRIST.
how old are you xenu? and did you ever try to explore nine inch nails? or did you just sit back and think of it as a exercise of wallowing in abject self-pity? because if you did the later, i have no reason to believe that you could ever understand nin.
let me say, however, that youre situation reminds me of my sister's. my sister and i are fucking twins. (not really, but we think a lot alike). she was into nin, but she never got beyond the 'oh my god, the world is crushing me, what ever shall i do?' so she dropped it like an old pair of sneakers when her husband brainwashed her into listening to something else. perhaps you made that mistake, but i didnt. nin lives and explains several major continental philosophical theories from nietszche onwards.
xenu:
now I'm past that and am ready to create something with my life rather than tear everything apart. *laughs* go listen to the fragile in its entirety buddy. that is not about destruction.
xev:
youre a genius.
let me expound on closer: this really is a masterpiece, both musically and lyrically. the song, to me, reflects the roiling internal conflict mr self-destruct is experiencing as it continues to fester up to his "breakthrough" point. "breakthrough" being the negative connotation, he "breaks through" the power of god/society/emotion and slips into the downward spiral. but that is later. in this song, you see only the incipient destructive forces establishing their foundation within his psyche, and the rudimentary internal conflict between his fantasy to control and his reality of being controlled arises.
for those of you who havent figured it out, mr self destruct communicates control/power through sex. its such an apposite metaphor: sex is the most intimate act between two lovers--and also the point at which one is most vulnerable. you can destroy or be destroyed. you are at the mercy of your lover and vice versa. and the beauty of good sex is: its always ambiguous, you never realize whos controlling whom, and this eats at mr self destruct because he needs an absolute affirmation of his power. he uses his lover to satiate his thirst for destruction, but it hurts him to know he is simultaneously a slave to her and to his need for power.
to communicate this, reznor effectively creates a duality between the position of 'master' and 'slave' in mr self destruct. you see him fluctuating between these two positions constantly, and as the listener you never know if his efforts at establishing dominancy over his lover have really satisfied his obsession with control. its very ambiguous, and it sets up for ruiner....
but lets take a look at some of the lyrics:
"you let me violate you.
you let me desecrate you.
you let me penetrate you.
you let me complicate you...."
beautiful. the repition of "you let" emphasizes, to be redundant, the power ambiguity. mr self destruct is doing the violating, the desecrating, the penetrating, the complicating, but shes letting him, and that drives our little friend up the wall.
i could go on, but if no one is reading this but xev, then ill relegate that to a personal post. if this thread will be about criticizing/supporting nin so be it. ill argue that as well, i just wont waste my time right now interpreting lyrics...
Xenu:
However being a hard core critiquer I feel he only writes about one aspect of love, "the love sucks side". Alright, this is his shindig, nihilism, that's what he likes to write about. I respect that. But it bores me too. I hear no progression, just the same theme over and over. So I move on.
Not nihilism, per se. Nihlism is simply the concept that truth does not really exist. NIN goes WAAAAY deeper than that.
But love does suck. The fact is, Trent explores a facet of love that most people either do not feel or miss.
It is not simply "love sucks" in a whiney, CW way..."love sucks because she left" it is "love is painfull all the time, even if they do not".
And it is. Nothing involving such an exchange of emotions can be anything BUT painfull.
Love is painfull by its very nature, and Trent explores this fact very well.
ubermich:
nin lives and explains several major continental philosophical theories from nietszche onwards.
Exactly. Existentialism, a twee bit of Nihlism, and Nietszche is in a class of his own. They do not really explore the Absurd....
for those of you who havent figured it out, mr self destruct communicates control/power through sex. its such an apposite metaphor: sex is the most intimate act between two lovers--and also the point at which one is most vulnerable. you can destroy or be destroyed. you are at the mercy of your lover and vice versa. and the beauty of good sex is: its always ambiguous, you never realize whos controlling whom, and this eats at mr self destruct because he needs an absolute affirmation of his power. he uses his lover to satiate his thirst for destruction, but it hurts him to know he is simultaneously a slave to her and to his need for power.
Exactly. While he may superficially control her, he knows that he is as much his slave as she is his.
Because she can leave him at any time. That in itself is the sheer beauty and the sheer hell of love - the beloved can withdraw their feelings, withdraw their consent - ANY TIME THEY FUCKING PLEASE.
This is part of what makes love as much of agony as joy. And yes, I am being a fucking hypocrite and equating sex with love...but that is also a theme of the song.
beautiful. the repition of "you let" emphasizes, to be redundant, the power ambiguity. mr self destruct is doing the violating, the desecrating, the penetrating, the complicating, but shes letting him, and that drives our little friend up the wall.
GENIUS!
Really, there is no way that mr.self destruct can ever completely control his partner. He can have her handcuffed and gagged, but she is still in control.
Not only because she lets him - ahhh, the power of consent - but because he needs her. He needs her very presence to show control over. Without her, he has no-one to desecrate, penetrate or violate.
He needs her and is as much her slave as she is his.
i could go on, but if no one is reading this but xev, then ill relegate that to a personal post. if this thread will be about criticizing/supporting nin so be it. ill argue that as well, i just wont waste my time right now interpreting lyrics...
*Growls*
WHAT HAVE YOU PEOPLE BEEN INHALING? BLEACH?!
I really don't see how any philosopher could not adore NIN. Oh don't you people see, it's not a typical whiney "life sucks, then you die" group....it is philosophy in music.
Just as Zarathrusra was poetry in philosophy, NIN is philosophy in music.
Yet they do not get into "being deep and serious for the sake of being deep and serious" - they simply cannot be otherwise.
i could go on, but if no one is reading this
Hey! I'm reading! :)
Lets not make this a pro or contra NIN thread, but a thread about them.
I was clear in the first post damnit! :)
I CANT BELIEVE YOU CALL YOURSELF NIN FANS.
I believe that this is directed at me. I never said I am a NIN fan. I once was. I still like Trent's music, but can now only listen to it in small amounts.
how old are you xenu? This statement only reflects your own maturity level. If it matters to you, I'm a number of years older than you, considering you are a high school senior.
Yes the world can suck, relationships will end, the world will close in, blah blah blah. There are a number of reasons to be negative about the world, and a lot of them are expressed in NIN. I'm sure I felt much like you did in High School (considering my empathy towards your viewpoint is somewhat correct). I found it unhealthy, and now embrace both the positive and negative - what I find to be a more mature outlook for myself.
A4ever, sorry for hi-jacking your thread. If this continues, I'll take this elsewhere.
A4Ever:
Lets not make this a pro or contra NIN thread, but a thread about them.
Then post an interpretation, or contribute to ubermich and mine - ubermich's and my - how does the grammer work there? Anyhow:
Post something.
Xenu:
Actually, age does matter. One is not the same person at 12 that one is at 33.
How is recognizing a simple fact immature?
All:
Fine, don't post. See if I care. Or take a stab at interpreting:
march of the pigs
step right up
march
push
crawl right up on your knees
please
greed
feed (no time to hesitate)
i want a little bit
i want a piece of it
i think he's losing it
i want to watch it come down
don't like the look of it
don't like the taste of it
don't like the smell of it
i want to watch it come down
all the pigs are all lined up
i give you all that you want
take the skin and peel it back
now doesn't it make you feel better?
shove it up inside
surprise!
lies
stains like the blood on your teeth
bite
chew
suck (away the tender parts)
i want to break it up
i want to smash it up
i want to fuck it up
i want to watch it come down
maybe afraid of it
let's discredit it
let's pick away at it
i want to watch it come down
all the pigs are all lined up
i give you all that you want
take the skin and peel it back
now doesn't it make you feel better?
the pigs have won tonight
they can all sleep soundly
and everything is all right
ubermich
07-02-02, 12:09 PM
to xenu:
This statement only reflects your own maturity level. If it matters to you, I'm a number of years older than you, considering you are a high school senior. *laughs* ill go ahead and share this with you xenu, because perhaps ill be in your shoes twenty years from now...god i hope not. but i really asked you for your age to insult you, to patronize you (being 17 and having decent argumentative skills you can really make adults feel like shit if theyre not thick-skinned...)
nice comeback, however, i must acknowledge. keep it cool, in control, dont let it ever appear that what theyve said insulted you, and subtly turn it back on them with something along the lines 'thats your immaturity talking, young child.'
im not saying this to critique you anymore, btw. i just think the interplay between two arguers can be quite funny.
oh, and dont think i dont embrace the positive too. im trying, and i of course i realize that life is a two-sided coin--theres good and bad to everything. but you must realize that no one ever intelligently discusses the bad--or the painful--all the music in this world idealizes the brainless good. not that im not happy at times (often bouts of happiness are few and far between) and not that i dont cherish happiness, and (if you truly know what it was like to be my age at one point in your life) if you really believe this to be a phase, then you should NOT be trying to belittle us as pathetic or irrational. you should accept it as a phase, contribute what you have to say in conjunction with the conversation and not against it, and get out.
i dont mean to be harsh, im sorry, sir. i just dont see how one can go AWOL from nin. :)
NIN was part of my depression music. Part of my self realization music. The music I listened to when I was depressed and going through turmoil and I knew logical answers but couldn't attain them. The band held empathy with me, it seemed.
However, after outgrowing that I learnt that depression is the single most illogical emotion man has. A lot of people say that about love but love serves a purpose and brings joy. Depression is just a person mulling over why things are so bad. Eventually, we all grow up and learn that being depressed is just plain useless. If something's horrible and you can't fix it - depression is useless because it won't fix anything. If something's horrible and you can fix it - get out there and fix it, don't be depressed.
Since I realized and accepted all this I haven't felt worry, fear or depression. When a girl and I broke up that I absolutely adored I hung up the phone said 'well that's a shame' and picked my guitar back up, pressed pause on the cd player and continued with Come Together. Depression gets you no where. It seems in a lot of NIN music that they've yet to realize that. Or, at least accept it.
Oh, but don't get me wrong, I still enjoy a good amount of their music!
I don't think one should overemphasize the depressed part of NIN, cause Trent is not dwelling on that.
It's often about rebellion against society and about love. Yes peeps, love, and not the part where the girl ditches you, but a whole lot of other aspects.
The fragile: fragile, she doesn't see her beauty,..., I won't let you fall apart. Didn't the hairs just rise on the back of your neck when watching MTV on 9/9/99? Oh yes!
Furthermore, the music is about the blending of man and machine, like in the becoming.
It is about blind consumerism and the power of the media in Happiness in slavery and march of the pigs.
Even the most depressing album (TDS) ends with a clear tone which is the sound of new hope, and not the sound of depression.
So it is not fair to look at them as a teenage depression band, when there's so much more in there.
"It is about blind consumerism and the power of the media in Happiness in slavery and march of the pigs."
That gets very, very tired after a while. It's one of those trying-to-be-smart topics, consumerism. A topic that's very well known by neo-intellects and everyone reaches pretty much the same conclusion. Remember what Xev said about eminem? About hwo he found a couple things to talk about and then just dwelled on them? Same deal.
I think every single musician should be required to take a good hard look at The Beatles, The Who, CSNY, Simon And Garfunkel, The Guess Who, The Rolling Stones and such before they even think about a career in music. Bands seem to spend whatever time they are together now adays dwelling on a small amount of topics.
One of the reasons The Beatles are the greatest band ever is that they did such a huge range of music on such a huge range of subjects. From education to war, from love to sexuality, from inner peace to religion, from waking up to taxes, from drugs to leaving drugs.....and everything in between. All of our greatest musicians have spent their life exploring themselves and growing along with their music. I have no to little respect for any band that spends it's career barely changing it's musical style or lyrical message. One of the reasons I respect Green Day's move in music lately is because it is a maturing of their lyrics and sound. I may not like it as much as their old brain-dead stuff, but it shows them finally growing up. And taht I respect.
Tyler:
Since I realized and accepted all this I haven't felt worry, fear or depression. When a girl and I broke up that I absolutely adored I hung up the phone said 'well that's a shame' and picked my guitar back up, pressed pause on the cd player and continued with Come Together. Depression gets you no where. It seems in a lot of NIN music that they've yet to realize that. Or, at least accept it.
Thread's about interpretation, not critique, buuuuuuut......
Depression gets you through. It's simply an emotion, like any other. They realize this fact.
A4Ever:
"It is about blind consumerism and the power of the media in Happiness in slavery and march of the pigs."
Nooooot exactly:
slave screams he think he knows what he wants
slave screams thinks he has something to say
slave screams he hears but doesn't want to listen
slave screams he's being beat into submission
Not so much consumerism or the power of the media - the power of society and its expectations. I just love the way they make the comparison to S and M - top and bottom. The force of society is the master.
You and I, of course, are the slaves.
don't open your eyes you won't like what you see
the devils of truth steal the souls of the free
don't open your eyes take it from me
i have found
you can find
happiness in slavery
happiness in slavery
One could always submit and give into pure hedonism, one could conform - certainly less painfull than trying to fight it.
slave screams he spends his life learning conformity
slave screams he claims he has his own identity
slave screams he's going to cause the system to fall
slave screams but he's glad to be chained to that wall
Worthless protest. The slave knows how utterly fucking useless it is to fight the herd instinct, and is glad that he really can't win.
He wants to submit, but some innate human nobility prevents him. His protest is vocal, merely, and he is secretly glad of this.
don't open your eyes you won't like what you see
the blind have been blessed with security
don't open your eyes take it from me
i have found
you can find
happiness in slavery
happiness in slavery
Again, he repeats how fucking wonderfull it would be to give up. Surrender would be much preferable to carrying on a useless fight.
We do see a hint of the Absurd here, don't we? The consciousness that the war has been lost, but that the battle must still be fought.
For the Absurd man, or warrior, it is not that one loses a battle but wins the war - it is that one can lose the war, but winning the battle is the most important thing.
i don't know what i am i don't know where i've been
human junk just words and so much skin
stick my hands thru the cage of this endless routine
just some flesh caught in this big broken machine
Despair. And again, we consider giving up, submitting to it and letting it control us.
If we do, we can find, as the narrator did:
happiness in slavery
happiness in slavery
happiness in slavery (slavery)
happiness in slavery (slavery)
happiness in slavery (slavery)
happiness in slavery (slavery)
happiness (it controls you, it controls you)
happiness (it controls you, it controls you)
happiness (it controls you, it controls you)
happiness (it controls you)
The other point of the song, a bit understated, is the way we are controlled by pleasure.
For instance, we all know how people lie to themselves, little and big lies that give them pleasure - my wife is beautiful, my children are intelligent, I believe in my God and He will reward me in a life to come....
They often become slaves to these lies - losing control over knowledge is a sure route to slavery - yet they find happiness this way....
Happiness in slavery.
Tyler:
Actually, NIN is just as versitile as the Beatles. But just as the Beatles are dominated by Pop, NIN is dominated by a sort of - what you might call "darkness". The Beatles have an atmosphere of preppiness and cheeriness - NIN has an atmosphere of sadness and pain.
"Depression gets you through. It's simply an emotion, like any other. They realize this fact"
Haha. Sorry, this is bloody hilarious! Depression gets you through? Um, okay! If you're weak enough to need it. Depression is for those unable to accept what they know.
"Not so much consumerism or the power of the media - the power of society and its expectations. I just love the way they make the comparison to S and M - top and bottom. The force of society is the master.
You and I, of course, are the slaves."
Every single philosopher-wannabe goes on about this subject and conversing about it shows zero intelligence. Rather, a serious trend of stating the obvious. These things are just facts we've known since about the 60's (but seemed to ignore during the 80s!).
"Again, he repeats how fucking wonderfull it would be to give up. Surrender would be much preferable to carrying on a useless fight."
Is ignorance (slave) bliss? Yeah, real new debate. And his side of it has never been heard before. :rolleyes:
"Actually, NIN is just as versitile as the Beatles. But just as the Beatles are dominated by Pop, NIN is dominated by a sort of - what you might call "darkness". The Beatles have an atmosphere of preppiness and cheeriness - NIN has an atmosphere of sadness and pain."
Have they made a country-style song? (I know, we all despise country)
Have they made pop songs (and Beatles pop is actually quite good)?
Have they made depression songs?
Have they made Indian style music?
Have they made classical mixed with rock style music?
Have they made psychadelia?
Have they made old-style rock?
Have they made heavy metal? (The Beatles are actually credited with the first heavy metal song ever. Though they named it the first Heavy Rock song at the time, as Heavy Metal is a term from Steppenwolf)
Have they made soft and hard ballads?
Have they made music in other languages?
NIN is HARDLY as diverse as the Beatles. And no where neaaaaaaar as diverse in their messages as any of the bands I mentioned. NIN states things that every single human being has thought of during their teenage years. Every single one of us. From the brain-dead cheerleader to the goth, my experience in dealing with my peers problems is that not one person has not expressed these sentiments. And that's great for NIN. To be able to eloquently state what everyoen feels is great. But believe me, they could have cramed it all into one album. Just like, and I admitt this, The Beatles could have cramed all their early pop-love songs into one album. They could have made an album of just A Hard Day's Night, I Saw Her Standing There and such. But they didn't because they were 20 year olds who were just being introduced to the world and reality. Then they grew up and actually went through many, many different phases. So far, NIN have failed to mature in any way.
Contrary to what you may believe, life is not depressing. Life does not suck. Life is the best possible option. If you had a choice between being stabbed in the leg with large knives or having a paper cut which would you choose? And after you chose the paper cut would you say 'this is depressing, this sucks'? I'd like to borrow a section from Romeo and Juliet where young Romeo reaches the Friar and exclaims his woe. He is banished from the city (and, his Juliet ultimatly), his friend is dead and he can't see Juliet. Romeo exclaims to the Friar basically 'oh, life is depressing, this sucks, everythign is bad and I am so depressed'. Friar turns to him and says 'Depressed? Depressed? You should be killed by law, but instead you are banished - a blessing. You may have lost your Juliet altogether, but she still loves you - a blessing. You could have been killed, but instead you killed the man - a blessing. Three times blessed.'
The fact is, there is an upside and a downside to every situation. People who look at the downside tend to accomplish nothing with their life (note: no, not a provable fact). Life is depressing, only if you let it be. At the time my girlfriend and I broke up my parents were fighting at least once a night. My hockey season had just ended so the only that truly takes my mind off of worries is gone. Two of my friends were severly depressed and I was fucking up big time at school. On top of that, I was having recurring problems from a past relationship (I had a horrible situation a year back that pretty much changed me entirely. I went through serious turmoil with that and still have conflict with it). Depression? Hell no. Depression just got me down. I looked at it as, well, at least I had a girl. Well, a least my parents aren't worse to me. Well, at least I had a good hockey season in general... I'm not an optimist, I'm a realist. I just realize that depression serves no purpose unless you're a whinny little kid who can't come to terms with himself and his situation. When I suffered from it I considered depression a result of my then-highly-rated (by myself, that is) intellect. After everyone started pooring their life onto me I realized that everyone is depressed. And realism is the only intelligent way. Depression sucks. Optimism is blind and dumb. Realism and acceptance make you indifferent to life. And all the better for it, you realize that nothing matters, so life is here to be happy.
Ubermich, Your last post only supports my feeling about your maturity level.
Actually, age does matter. One is not the same person at 12 that one is at 33.
Xev, I never made any statement about age, that was all implied by Ubermich. It's experience that determines maturity, which makes age indirectly responsible. However, I've seen a lot of childish middle-agers in my life.
I know that you are fairly young, yet your replies have been mature. You have managed to settle your emotional business and make attempts to steer the thread back on topic. I respect that.
Because so I would like to give my interpretation for March of the Pigs...
In March of the Pigs, the metaphor is strong and clear. Imagine a bunch of starved pigs at feeding time. Trent seems to be alluding to the people of our societies (of the USA at least) and their places and roles within it.
step right up
march
push
crawl right up on your knees
please
greed
feed (no time to hesitate)
People are pushing their way to get to the top of the pile, pushing their way to survive, to get the handout by farmer bob or devour the person at the top.
i want a little bit
i want a piece of it
i think he's losing it
i want to watch it come down
don't like the look of it
don't like the taste of it
don't like the smell of it
i want to watch it come down
Even when "success" is had in society, all that is received is slop. It's spiritually unfullfilling. So even though the slop bucket or devouring another person allows for survival, people want to see a new system in place, something more fullfilling than slop.
all the pigs are all lined up
i give you all that you want
take the skin and peel it back
now doesn't it make you feel better?
Ahh, this set of lines make me think of the movie Snatch, where the one crimelord guy has a pig farm that he feeds his enemies to. ("Do you know what nemesis means?") I also thing that pigs, when hungry enough, may become canibalistic (not sure though). People are being fed flesh, our system is set up so that we feed off each other, in our struggle to get to the top, and also feed off each other once we get to the top. Greed.
shove it up inside
surprise!
lies
stains like the blood on your teeth
bite
chew
suck (away the tender parts)
feigned fullfillment
i want to break it up
i want to smash it up
i want to fuck it up
i want to watch it come down
maybe afraid of it
let's discredit it
let's pick away at it
i want to watch it come down
again, dissatisfaction of the system, but also the one line points towards the fear of the system, fear in rebelling against it, fear in creating something better.
now doesn't it make you feel better?
This is my favorite line from the song, the way it turns so happy and sweet. Again feigned fullfillment.
the pigs have won tonight
they can all sleep soundly
and everything is all right
and yet again feigned fullfillment. Ahhhhh (sigh of relief).
Hey, have any of you heard about the one track, where if you fastforward it, you can hear Trent say "Erase Me", over and over. I believe it's at the beginning Eraser, the long instrumental part. Like I said before, musical genius.
-Xenu
Originally posted by Tyler
NIN was part of my depression music. Part of my self realization music. The music I listened to when I was depressed and going through turmoil and I knew logical answers but couldn't attain them. The band held empathy with me, it seemed.
However, after outgrowing that I learnt that depression is the single most illogical emotion man has. A lot of people say that about love but love serves a purpose and brings joy. Depression is just a person mulling over why things are so bad. Eventually, we all grow up and learn that being depressed is just plain useless. If something's horrible and you can't fix it - depression is useless because it won't fix anything. If something's horrible and you can fix it - get out there and fix it, don't be depressed.
Since I realized and accepted all this I haven't felt worry, fear or depression. When a girl and I broke up that I absolutely adored I hung up the phone said 'well that's a shame' and picked my guitar back up, pressed pause on the cd player and continued with Come Together. Depression gets you no where. It seems in a lot of NIN music that they've yet to realize that. Or, at least accept it.
Pretty much what I was saying but more intelligently expressed. :D
Tyler:
Haha. Sorry, this is bloody hilarious! Depression gets you through? Um, okay! If you're weak enough to need it. Depression is for those unable to accept what they know.
You're beginning to sound like Nelson. "Those unable to accept what they know" ?
Huh?
It's an emotion, like any other. Why fear it? Why not explore and conquer it?
Every single philosopher-wannabe goes on about this subject and conversing about it shows zero intelligence. Rather, a serious trend of stating the obvious. These things are just facts we've known since about the 60's (but seemed to ignore during the 80s!).
*Raises eyebrows*
I hardly consider myself the Jeff K of philosophy. Perhaps I read too much Nietzsche, but I think that is about it.
In any case, this has been known and explored since at least the days of Socrates. I hardly consider Socrates to be a man of "zero intelligence".
Is ignorance (slave) bliss? Yeah, real new debate. And his side of it has never been heard before.
You miss the point. The song is about the conflict between "ignorence is bliss, succumb" and "ignorence may be bliss, but I will NOT give in".
Most interesting.
NIN states things that every single human being has thought of during their teenage years.
So do the Beatles. They are simply not as eclectic. Nor are they as intellectual. I find NIN more engaging than the Beatles, but of course, everyone has different tastes.
"You're beginning to sound like Nelson. "Those unable to accept what they know" ?
Huh?
It's an emotion, like any other. Why fear it? Why not explore and
conquer it?"
Consider depression is completely illogical. Unless you are a person who is self-loathing by nature and gets joy from being depressed, there is not one bit of good in depression. Yet many of those who are depressed know that it is illogical and that they shouldn't be depressed. It's just the acceptance of this fact that gets a person over depression. I explored and conquered depression. NIN never seemed to conquer it.
"I hardly consider myself the Jeff K of philosophy. Perhaps I read too much Nietzsche, but I think that is about it.
In any case, this has been known and explored since at least the days of Socrates. I hardly consider Socrates to be a man of "zero intelligence"."
You misunderstood. Actually, you just jumped to a conclusion but whatever. I said that discussing consumerism shows zero intelligence. I didn't say that it shows the person is stupid. I just said it doesn't show any intelligence. Discussing hockey shows zero intelligence. Doesn't mean I'm stupid. See the difference?
"You miss the point. The song is about the conflict between "ignorence is bliss, succumb" and "ignorence may be bliss, but I will NOT give in".
Most interesting."
Not really. Again, it's an old statement. And not a difficult concept to grasp.
It's interesting compared to 99% of the shit out there. But not compared to the intelligent stuff.
"So do the Beatles. They are simply not as eclectic. Nor are they as intellectual. I find NIN more engaging than the Beatles, but of course, everyone has different tastes."
Yup. The Beatles mulled on love and such for far too long. However, not as intellectual?
Like I said - depression and consumerism are not intelligent themes. They are bloody common themes.
Philosophy in general (Across the Universe)
Rascism (Blackbird)
Privacy (Dear Prudence)
Drugs (oh, um, Magical Mystery Tour, Daytripper.... a lot!)
Intellect (Fool on the Hill)
Optimism (Here Comes the Sun)
Society in general (While my Guitar Gently Weeps)
Walrus' (I am the Walrus - hehe, I had to through that in)
Taxes (Taxman)
Familiarity and Home (Strawberry Fields Forever)
Tibetan Book of the Dead (Tommorow Never Knows)
Self Realization (Help, Girl....many others)
The Beatles spanned a million different topics. They were and are the single greatest modern musical artists we have. Greatest use of musical instruments and types. Some of the greatest lyrics are found in their songs. Fuck, you don't even have to take my word for it. They had 4 albums in Rolling Stones top 10 on Greatest Albums Ever. FOUR!!!!! The fact that you don't consider them the greatest band ever just proves you haven't listened to Abbey Road straight through!!!!!
It actually flows better than any music ever. And I include classical in that.
*Shrugs*
I just don't see why we should fear depression. But that's off topic. And you cannot say that a band that wrote mainly happy happy preppy songs about love is more intelligent than a band that wrote insightfull songs about philosophy and pain.
You've in essence called me more intelligent than Issac Newton, because I can talk about a wide variety of things, while Newton could really only understand physics and math stuff.
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one big thing" -- Archilochus
But it's all off topic.
Xenu:
again, dissatisfaction of the system, but also the one line points towards the fear of the system, fear in rebelling against it, fear in creating something better.
Aye. Reznor is good at capturing dilemnas like this - "I want to change myself, I want to change the world, but I am afraid of changing things".
"I just don't see why we should fear depression."
I never said that. What I said was that depression is illogical and should be a phase that you mature out of.
"And you cannot say that a band that wrote mainly happy happy preppy songs about love is more intelligent than a band that wrote insightfull songs about philosophy and pain."
You're right. Of course, anyone who has pain is more intelligent. No one happy could be smart.....:rolleyes:
Anyway, it's pretty obvious you not only didn't read the list I gave but haven't actually listened to The Beatles music from Ruber Soul on. Actually, ever since they met Dylan, Lennon's music was pretty much about his depression and how he got through it. The Beatles were considerably more deep than any band who spent their time going on about how much of slaves we are. The minute you read your first page of politics or philosophy you realize this; admitt it! Dwelling on the most obvious of conclusions does not impress me in the least.
"You've in essence called me more intelligent than Issac Newton, because I can talk about a wide variety of things, while Newton could really only understand physics and math stuff."
Once again you're readiness to jump to conclusions shines through. What I've said is that dwelling on the one subject in no way shows intelligence. Not that it shows stupidity. Just that it does not show the people behind the lyrics are intelligent in any way.
ubermich
07-02-02, 11:50 PM
to xenu:
pathetic. sir, i thought i respected you, but utterly pathetic.
Ubermich, Your last post only supports my feeling about your maturity level. ??? umm.......thanks......for repeating exactly what you said in your last post and not addressing any of the arguments i created. nice way to blow off a debate when you dont "feel" like dealing with it. great maturity level there, bud. always good to run from different viewpoints, or negate them without establishing any evidence besides your own experiences. DID SEVERAL MORE YEARS OF "LIFE EXPERIENCE" TEACH YOU THAT ONE?
let me restate what i said (perhaps block form will help):
1) nin is not entirely depressed. i told you to listen to the fragile in its entirety and you will see that nin is both about destruction and redemption. and dont even say thats a ludicrous theme to embrace: it mirrors christianity, somewhat (im assuming youre christian) i have no doubt you listened to nin back in the day, probably up to tds, and then dropped off once you started "feeling" better. fine. your loss. just know that nin is NOT synonymous with the whiny desperation you probably experienced. its that AND climbing out of that hole.
2) youre a hypocrite, on TWO accounts, nonetheless.
a) you once embraced nin as a depressed teenager but were able to outgrow it on your own, and yet you are actively trying to CHANGE teenagers who are simply going through your little depression phase. youre trying to belittle what you once lived and naturally outgrew. fine, then let me do the same. double standard my friend? or just trying to suffice some inner need to prove to yourself/shame that youve escaped old trent reznor?
b) you have a degree in psychology, yet you are JUDGING what others are doing. how can you possibly denegrate someone's tastes when you know THE REASON THEY LISTEN TO NIN STEMS FROM PSYCHOLOGICAL PROBLEMS? In effect, you are critiqueing my condition when you critique the implications of it, and that is something no self-respecting aspiring psychologist should do. youre supposed to help, not hurt. dont let your personal demons of unexpressed shame warp the memory of your past and get in the way of your mission. obviously, depression/wallowing in self-pity (call it what you will) is NOT uncommon at this age, as you have already acknowledged, and you should at LEAST be trying to understand why were depressed, instead of criticizing our musical tastes as whiny and immature.
3) your maturity has gotten you nowhere. the idea that youve embraced happiness HAS NOTHING to do with the notion that youve accepted the true nature of the world. you call depression unfounded and illogical, but how is happiness any different? youre working from, again, two assumptions, quasi-logician:
a) immaturity is bad, or it should be stopped if possible. again, this is implicated by your twin hypocrisies (see above.) you never establish why immaturity is terrible, never define what immaturity means (perhaps youre operating by a definition of bourgeouis society?), and you embrace the hypocritical (or perhaps the stupid) by trying to CHANGE A PHASE, WHICH BY DEFINITION IS IMPLAUSIBLE. and if youre going to come back with "im not trying to change you," which i know you will, know that i may add a third condition of hypocrisy to your resume. if youre not trying to change us, then why are you criticizing us? for the sheer fun of it? perhaps then you are not hypocritical, just fucking twisted.
b) a duality between happiness/depression is key to understanding the true nature of the world. first off, why do you care to understand the world as it should be understood. (especially when no objective truth has been pre-established to exist). who created a specific way to understand it, and who said that happiness is key to understanding it? your emotions are nothing more than the filters by which you interpret the world, you cant "deem" certain emotions to be higher/more mature than others when they are all reducible to biological causation.
a jesuit priest once told me: "high school and college are where we construct your limited education and inculcate in you a sense discipline and order without a need for the analytical. grad school is where we tear that all down."
perhaps you havent been to grad school yet.......
and dont even think about addressing me without looking at these arguments....
to tyler/xev:
*shakes head* i dont even know why you try. youre obviously operating from two polar opposites on the spectrum of emotions and cant communicate because of it.
ubermich:
*shakes head* i dont even know why you try. youre obviously operating from two polar opposites on the spectrum of emotions and cant communicate because of it.
We have wildly different approaches to dealing with them, and wildly different personalities.
Sorry Tyler, didn't mean to piss you off.
So anyway....interpretation?
Ubermich,
I blow you off because I don't want to fill this thread with argumentative banter. I initially went off topic, realized what I did wrong, and am now not contributing to it. You obviously are emotional over this so personal message me if you feel the need to. Warning, I am not getting into a play by play pissing match with you - I have nothing to prove to you.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Tyler, if you start a Beatles thread or point me to one, I'd be happy to join in. :)
Ubermich, maybe it's about time to post the connection you thought of between all the main albums.
Now that would be interesting.
ubermich
07-03-02, 10:48 PM
to xenu:
sorry sir. if youre gone, then this falls on deaf ears. but i think i just took out some anguish on you that ive been feeling lately...... i dont expect you to understand, but know that i dont feel anything negative against you, however you may feel about nin.
to a4ever:
connection between all the albums? good question. i have an answer, and i think you might see things this way as well.....
i dont think you can say the undergirding relationship between reznors albums is anything less than the voice of human evolution (perhaps this is xenu's "maturity.") a moral/ethical evolution, a creation of a system by which to live and a search for the meaning of your life, rather than any biological evolution.
this really doesnt do justice to it, but heres some stuff to throw out:
1) pretty hate machine: his innocence is dying. already we see incipient indications of the mr self destruct ready to spread his wings on tds. look to "head like a hole" to see that our friend has at so young an age already learned the language of the world: systematic, disciplined destruction as an assertion of control. "terrible lie" is another poignant track, taking you inside his mind and letting you watch as he falls apart, as his naivete is crushed and violated, as everything good in this world fails his trust and he begins to feel the perpetual nagging despair that will become so akin to him as his closest friend. everything else on this album, for the most part, details our mans hapless, merciless torture by his unscrupulous lovers; his heart is wrenched, twisted, torn asunder entirely, BUT, he comes back. and with his return he brings retribution........
2) broken: here we see our friend hit-rock bottom and the full implication of what his abject helplessness amidst a sadistic world means. it means nothing. that he can DO nothing, more specifically. our friend is a pathetic shit who cannot overcome his inner demons. he knows on some subconcious level that he will never climb out of the hole he has dug for himself. BUT, this album to me is not a linear story like tds; more of a series of snapshots of what channeled rebellious rage can do to a man and what it means for how he must live. "wish"- 'show something real show something true' explicates the next stage of his retribution. he is done playing victim, he is over the "terrible lie." now, he wants to do something, wants to lash out at the world and show them what theyre missing and what theyve done to him. "last"-'this isnt meant to last, this is for right now,' sounds like a form of sexual rebellion (perhaps the rudimentary beginnings of the perverse sexual language soon to come in tds, but i have not studied the lyrics to this song...). "slave screams"- 'dont open your eyes, you wont like what you see'- reflects (what i believe to be) the sexual rebelliousness of "last," but in the greater context of society. hes attacking cherished ideals/undercurrent assumptions of every man here. this is quite profound---it rejects the platonic assumptions of the past 2000 years of philosophy-the notion of truth=acceptance/happiness.. finally, "gave up" shows that for all his affected rage and his fruitless attempts at retribution, our little friend still cannot control his emotions. he is slowly dying.....wearing thin emotionally.....and its only a matter of time before he breaks.
3)the downward spiral: perhaps reznor's masterpiece, tds recounts in linear fashion the systematic self-destruction of our friend. again, all the major 'gods' of our lives, our cherished institutions and icons, are destroyed. religion, society, self, love--dead. im not going to go into depth--this album has several good articles on it which you can read about. the important point is that our friend realizes he cannot become his own god....that he is incapable of eschewing slavery, and in an abortive attempt to save himself he must do the counterintuitive--he must kill himself to save others and break the cycle. but in the end, though he is "hurt" and reduced to a pathetic nothingness, he is still alive--and victorious.
4) the fragile: i did not think reznor could create a better album than tds, but he did just that with the fragile. my interpreation of the fragile is by far the shakiest....since it is so complex and ambiguous. ive thought about writing this down--but its too hard to do so here. suffice it to say that the 'left' and 'right' are to me, two different stories, two different potential outcomes of what one may do with the future. each side recounts the ups and downs that mr self-destruct must cope with post-tds. therefore, the fragile should be viewed more similarly to broken than tds. it is a positive, reconstructive album whereas broken was destructive, however.
many will disagree, but i see the 'right' as the negative path. nothing 'good' comes from this part of the album.....all we see is mr self destruct slowly rotting away beneath the pressures of the society/existence he fought so hard to change/defend in tds.
the 'left,' however, is what we must look to. it is no coincidence "the fragile" was inserted here. there is virtually no content difference between the 'left' and 'right' but for this song and its effects. it is the one variable we must embrace. here, mr self destruct, just like on the 'right,' is dying. slowly, but surely he is dying. but something changes him. he finds someone who is like him, who feels what he feels. he sees in her where he once was and where he went wrong......and he resolves not to let her destroy herself like he did. in the end, mr self destruct still cannot save himself, but he can do something to save her. he can offer 'all the spoils of a wasted life' for the one person who understands him...... both mr self destructs, from the 'left' and the 'right' die inevitably, but the man on the 'left' dies not in vain.....
to xev:
thank you. youve changed the way i think about nin. i think youll see a lot of what ive told you in the above interpretations. that doesnt mean its correct, but its what it has come to mean to me....know that its because of you.
ubermich:
Genius. Sheer and utter genius. I cannot think of anything to add.
Well, your anounced all album interpretation sure was worth the wait. Thanks!
I wanted to say something about Trent's relation towards God.
It is easy to label NIN anti-religion, especially when you write a song called Heresy. But I think Trent is only reacting against organised religion like Katholicism, and not against the idea of a God.
I think this because of several reasons:
1. in Heresy, he talks about Christianity, and the lyrics change to YOUR God is dead at some point. He also describes one definition of a God, namely the Catholic version, a God full of vengeance, who demands to be worshipped.
2. he talks a lot to God in various songs. I know this is often done by atheists in a symbolic way, but it's something that catches my attention.
3. If you read the long interpretation to which I posted a link in the first entry, you see that he kills God, tries to be God, and sees that it doesn't work that way. This interpretation makes it a very religious album, since it shows what can happen without a universal principle.
U-hum... some reaction please :)
Tyler N.
08-22-04, 02:36 PM
Huh, the link between the albums makes me want to go buy more, mainly pretty hate machine and Broken. But, for the Fragile, I do have to disagree with ubermich.
There is someone on the right side, why do you think there is a song entitled "I'm looking foreward to joining you, finally"? There is something about the album which ruined my first attempt at interpreting the fragile, and that is the left-right designations. It means that it isn't a linear two album story (like the wall), which it could very well be otherwise. I sort of like Ubermich's two possible outcomes idea, but it is all the same. The last song of left and the second last of right are one and the same. I think that the beginnings are different, and this is the part where the story is joined.The right disk is about "the fragile", her story, and the first is about the same character who it is throughout all of the albums.
Fraggle Rocker
08-22-04, 04:35 PM
Wow. I checked out this thread because I'm a Nails fan (possibly the world's oldest, soon to be 61) and discovered something that made me very happy.
There are still people who pay attention to lyrics, who actually listen to the music, not just using it as a background for dancing, working, cellphone conversations, or videogames. Since the death of prog rock and the dawn of disco, we all figured that nobody really sits and listens to music anymore. Nice to know we're wrong.
Of course I'm exaggerating. "In the End" by Linkin Park didn't get to be the anthem of every high school graduating class in the country (whatever year that was) without all those kids relating to "I've tried so hard and come so far, but in the end it doesn't even matter." But NiN (moderator, we need the backwards N in the SciForums font, please ^_^ ) is a bit deeper than that. And at concerts from Filter to Shakira I've seen the entire audience sing along with every lyric, so they've been paying attention. But I also observed that phenomenon at a Poison concert twenty years ago ("Ain't lookin' for nothin' but a good time, and it don't get better than this."), so I'm not sure it has anything to do with the quality of the music as literature so much as groupiedom.
I confess to not being terribly familiar with any of Trent's lyrics since "Head like a Hole." I sit and listen to the music, don't get me wrong, but I find it somewhat hypnotic and I get tranced out. More of a Tangerine Dream vibe than a Kris Kristofferson vibe.
Those of you who find Trent's lyrics a little too down, you probably don't care much for Staind, Type O Negative, or Evanescence, either. ^_^
Tyler N.
08-29-04, 11:17 AM
@ the other tyler
NIN Is more diverse then the beatles were at this stage in their career. They only have three full legnth albums, 1 ep, and three remix albums. In those few albums, they have put industrial rock into several styles including progressive (fragile), metal(broken), instrumental, semi-classical (ripe with decay), minimalist (the frail, and their upcoming album, which is suppossedly minimalist), and unclassified (like half their music, would you call "somewhat damaged" slow hard rock with a tribal beat?). I'd say early NIN is much more diverse then early beatles. At the rate NIN is improving, I would expect them to end up as good as pink floyd.
I always thought "As My Guitar Gently Weeps" was about one of the Beatles having an affair with another Beatles' woman.
Don't forget "Revolution" which was about Abbey Hoffman (of Steal This Book fame) asking the Beatles for money.
I'm with Xenu about Reznor's overbearing whininess in the voice. The sound of his songs are less a commentary and more a complaint. His lyrics are terrific, and if you're looking for a downer of a song, he's the man.
Has anynone heard the Garbage vs. NIN "Crushingly Closer" remix? It's really well done.
Tyler N.
02-20-05, 07:54 PM
Sorry about ressurecting an old thread, but I actually came across this very thread from google when I was looking for info on their upcoming album. Strange, huh?
Anyways, my earlier posts here kind of sucked, you could say. I never realized that NIN are much farther into their careers then the beetles were, I can't believe I compared them to pink floyd. Anyways, time to settle some stuff....
Starting with the first post by the other Tyler,
have they made a country-style song? (I know, we all despise country) No, and I'm glad....
Have they made pop songs (and Beatles pop is actually quite good)? Closer, sort of. We're in this together is pop rock.
Have they made depression songs? Hell yeah!
Have they made Indian style music? They used indianish sounding instruments on a remix album.
Have they made classical mixed with rock style music? Ripe (with decay)
Have they made psychadelia? In this day and age?
Have they made old-style rock? yes.
Have they made heavy metal? (The Beatles are actually credited with the first heavy metal song ever. Though they named it the first Heavy Rock song at the time, as Heavy Metal is a term from Steppenwolf) yes
Have they made soft and hard ballads? yes
Have they made music in other languages? La mer (french for "the sea", also the name of a work by claude debussy)
Now to turn it around....
Have the beatles made remixes?
Have they made instrumentals?
Have they made complicated concept albums?
Have they made simulations of real noises? (eraser=train?)
Have they made unclassifiable music?
Have they made soundtrack music?
Have they made non-melodic music?
Have they made parts of songs fight each other? (the album things falling apart, for example)
I really think that NIN are more diverse then the beatles. They just happen to be more subtle. And their depressed lyrics aren't fake or anything, I think that Trent really did have to get help at one point.
I have to go now. I hope I am not just beating a dead horse here....
Whoa.
It's my adolescence, haunting me.
Holy Frigg does that bring back memories.
Tyler N:
At the rate NIN is improving, I would expect them to end up as good as pink floyd.
Umm.
Floyd's first three albums, Piper at the Gates of Dawn, Saucerful of Secrets and Ummagumma (unless you classify More as the third, I don't) are incredibly intricate and independent albums that inspired many bands after. In comparison, Reznor started with Pretty Hate Machine and two remixes of Pretty Hate Machine. A virtuous album surely, but nothing Reznor does is really very new or stand-alone. Throbbing Gristle and Einsturzende Neubaten had been doing Industrial way before '94, and it's not as if Reznor has contributed to industrial or ambient by making albums that are absolutely essential.
You cannot say the same of Floyd.
In terms of lyrical/ideological content, Reznor was bitching about how people try to control and hurt him when Roger Waters was writing things like "Set the Controls for the Heart of the Sun". Sorry, comparison benefits Floyd.
Not that Floyd isn't guilty of lyrics like
"you didn't like school//you know you're nobody's fool" and "all alone and dying of cancer"
And not that NIN isn't GOOD at what they do, but there's something passive about Reznor's psychology that keeps him:
A: Harping on human interactions
B: Harping on how lousy they are
And besides "The Fragile" and hopefully the upcoming album, is there a NIN album which doesn't overdo these themes, then resurrect their corpse and overdo them again?
Floyd - again, even when Floyd's angry at his domineering, petty-souled schoolteachers or his neurotic, stifling mother or the various parasites that feed off his career, there's a humour Waters and Gilmore display that Reznor shows but rarely.
Reznor, for reasons of avarice or personal proclivity, stays in a place that most people who find, recognize and move away from.
Now, niche bands are good. My current selection is Amon Amarth, whose frontman writes songs about three subjects only: Vikings, Vikings, and Vikings. But Floyd isn't a niche band.
Sorry man, no. Don't argue Floyd with me when I'm stoned.
Now the other Tyler - sorry man, no. No. No. The Beatles' psychedelic music is nothing special, and there's no way in hell a song like "I wanna hold your hand" is anything but precurser-pop. People listen to the Beatles thirty years afterwords, true. They also listen to Brahms a hundred years after and Elvis fifty years after. People have no taste.
Tyler N.
02-23-05, 08:01 PM
I took that back! And I wrote that a while ago when I was really into them. Stupid things I said sometimes. You wouldn't believe how much my tastes have evolved since then.
But I wasn't aware that there were two remixes of pretty hate machine. To be honest, I haven't even heard pretty hate machine.
Oh. Don't worry. I think I'm two pages back arguing deep philosophical content.
Wow I'm pathetic.
Now I am true kvlt black metal.
Tyler N.
02-24-05, 05:20 PM
Not bad, for someone who claims he was stoned ;)
She.
And I've wrote so many college essays drunk or high I'm immune.
I think I write better actually.
CounslerCoffee
02-25-05, 11:38 AM
I think I write better actually.
I think the same. But I wake up the next day and ask myself why someone would write something about sex with vending machines?
Tyler N.
02-25-05, 09:36 PM
I can't say I've ever tried to write under anything other then caffeine....
ZoraTheSquirrel
10-16-05, 11:03 PM
Greetings!! God, I hope this board isn't dead!
It has been a mere year since my discovery of Nin. Since that time, I have changed, and so much for the better! Let it not be denyed, Nine Inch Nails, Trent Reznor, is one of, if not the, best musical acts out there! More than that, however, he is a genius! His lyrics are probing, and deep beyond anything I can describe.
... I appologize for the sloppy writing and shitty grammar, however, at the moment, I'm about to fall asleep at the keyboard, and this post is just to anounce that you shall find no biger NIN fan than I! ... O, and to see if anyone still uses this thing. God, I hope so!
Fraggle Rocker
10-16-05, 11:57 PM
There's a thread in the math forum that gets about fifteen posts and then lies dormant for about a year. It's been revived three times now. And each time it's by someone who just asks the one question and then vanishes.
NiN is a good group. (Well it's a group when "they" play live anyway.) They're starting a tour, don't miss it.
If you like NiN, you should check out Filter, Tool, and The Mars Volta.
Dude, Reznor's been doing the same thing for like 2 decades. He's in his 40's. It's really time for him to stop pouting like a 15 year old.
I loved Pretty Hate Machine, if not for only the trashy 80's style synth. The Fragile was a wonderfully crafted album, and I certainly recognize his influence on industrial goth, but to call him best act out there? I don't think there was ever a time in his career that applied, and now in 2005, after With Teeth, it's more inapplicable than ever.
ZoraTheSquirrel
10-17-05, 09:08 AM
gasps Wow!! What happened to the dedicated fan base that used to post here!!?
Firstly, do you understand NIN? Do you realize how much philosophy and depth there is to be found in it? Pretty Hate Machine is just the tip of the ice burg.
Is there no one here to discuss the interpretation of lyrics, the vividness with which Trent is able to portray his emotions, the sheer excellence of NIN?
Zora
P.s. tool is fucking amazing as well! If any of you know who Philip Glass is, … He is also wonderful.
His philosophy isn't that deep. It's basically "people are mean and I don't like it." That and the obligatory attacks on modern culture & religion. People have been doing that for millenia. I fail to see what's so special about it. He's something of a musical genuis, but his lyrics aren't fantastically complex nor hard to understand.
They're hardly deep, they're really quite explicit in both sentiment and lyrical content.
Uh. NIN. I used to be something of a fan, but I then realized that I was in fact a fan of depression, bitterness, cynicism, anger, violence and all those things poor Trent so readily sighed his loungs out about. After a while, I got bored of it all.
Seriously.
Reznor's pretty two dimensional. He can only do a handful of things. Well, pretty much only one. He complains. He's really good at it, but there's only so much one can take.
Even Xev grew up a little bit and was like "you know, he is sorta pathetic."
And he's not even cute anymore! He's old!
Perfect
10-18-05, 02:05 PM
Cynicism, hatred, profound deepness and all that - fuck it.
None of you influence coveting dolts listen to the.. you know.. music? I don't half the time even hear the lyrics correctly, though, I’ve roamed trough them. A discussion based on a band... and restricted only to the lead singers lyrical contributions? Groovy.
For me, at least, the above seems silly
And since there's this tidbit: Personal meaning of songs can also be very interesting., you can't catch me raping the premise.
So.. perhaps it's just me, but the social, philosophical and dogmatic elaborations of people like Treznor, Maynard or whomever, are in a lower cast when compared to the ability to produce noise. The charisma residing in the voices, the overall composition leaps over the "fuck your god" statements. Often times I listen to a song and hear the lyrics straight to hell, I enjoy the overall harmony, if you will. The painting that illustrates itself to me is not absolute – it is abstract.
The scared little girlies, like water here, ruined bands like Nirvana. They're swell songs, but I’ll be fucked if I listen to lithium with a throng of punk-belted scumfuck 15 year old hormone wrecks, you know?
Know how much more deep bands like NIN would be without the image and the quotes in suicide notes? At least they’d be intellectually acceptable.
You'd think from reading these posts that most people listen to music for other people. Go buy a NIN album, throw the CD away and read the goddamn lyrics from the pamphlet. You get as much out of it than you ever could from the music since you have your head lodged so far up your ass.
And BTW, you think Treznor writes for his fans, or for himself?
I'd wager for himself, for otherwise it would be kind of selling out. So try to grasp his motives. It does not need to be special and fresh. It's merely a game played by a single individual. And some people like to participate - borrow the game.
Water borrowed the game, but didn't read or get the rules.
There's a man called Mike Patton, whom I think is one of the überestest people in today’s musical scene. He said that when he wrote lyrics for the tomahawk albums, he was not sincere, honest... he just sought a film noire, dark and mysterious sceneries because that was what the product was all about.
So, perhaps Treznor hit the nail on the head when he sang: I play a game, its called insincerity.
I like the product, but I don’t like the people who appoint redundant qualities to the product.
So excuse the lack of lyrical interpretations, but my personal interpretation of NIN is not founded solely over the lyrical content.
Perfect
10-18-05, 02:21 PM
But yeah, It's hard to take the guy seriously.
Point is, why should you? It's not like one couldn't name 200 artists who could arse-rampage the guy into oblivion.
Still, lighten the fuck up
Perfect,
I listen to NIN cause of the ambient beats. The constant, juvenile cynicism is what turns me off. I can't really say I like NIN without blushing, apologizing and saying "the tunes are kinda sweet." Which is exactly what you're doing.
With Teeth is his most sellout album to date. It's painfully obvious, too. The music vibrates with pop beats. It's utter trash.
But the toal bullshit in his music and all the fanboys that jack off to its deepness. As you said, it ruins it.
Okay.
I'll tell you how I came to listen to classical music.
Some years back, I have found myself at a crossroads: either listen to some really "heavy" music, or classical.
The choice came about that way: I used to be a Nirvana and all those bands fan. And it was at first, for the lyrics, for the gloom. But soon, I got tired of that, and I started listening to the music -- I'd delight in this or that base line, this or that riff, composition fancy, turn of the voice, etc. The lyrics and the gloom in them started to bother me. I focused on the music, but it was just too simple, somehow. It wasn't as "expressive", as interesting as I wished it would be. So I searched for albums, bands, that would musically interest me. I found many, but none were of my kind, none were for my studious listening, I got tired of most songs after a few listenings.
And then there was classical music. Some of it good, some not. But it had that "it" that I have been looking for, and for which "heavy metal" and "noise" and trip-hop were simplifications.
And BTW, you think Treznor writes for his fans, or for himself?
I'd wager for himself, for otherwise it would be kind of selling out. So try to grasp his motives. It does not need to be special and fresh. It's merely a game played by a single individual. And some people like to participate - borrow the game.
Po-mo is so passe. It's consumerism logic at its best, "Hey, let's go along, coz this is as good as life gets anyway, so let's all get high and hazy". ...
It's like reading Sartre, Camus, or some postmodernist, and thinking "I'm having a great time. I'm reading cool stuff."
Yeah right.
ZoraTheSquirrel
10-19-05, 07:50 AM
Christ, you can all go fuck yourselves, you know nothing of what true intelectualism is.
Mephura
10-19-05, 07:58 AM
A discussion based on a band... and restricted only to the lead singers lyrical contributions? Groovy.
For me, at least, the above seems silly
To me it seems silly to try to differentiate between Reznor and his lyrics, and the "band". Reznor is the band. He has total control of the music and the direction. The music is written with the lyrics. To pull the two apart...
Well it would be akin to watching a movie with out the sound, or even just he soundtrack/score. One was made to finish the other, to accentuate the other. It's a complete and total package.
While in the case of my example, the score by itself might be good music, the movie with out sound loses something.
The same goes for Reznor's music. To strip away the lyrics isn't what the man intended.
Christ, you can all go fuck yourselves, you know nothing of what true intelectualism is.
*spasms*
*more spasms*
Eh.
Fraggle Rocker
10-20-05, 06:04 PM
The Beatles' psychedelic music is nothing special, and there's no way in hell a song like "I wanna hold your hand" is anything but precurser-pop.But much of their later work is as good as popular music gets. Songs that aren't tied to their time and place by vocabulary, theme, and musical style. "Something," "Yesterday." It's impossible to predict what will last, but those songs are as good as "Greensleeves." Besides, people WILL be singing "Yellow Submarine" and possibly "Hey Jude"--as nursery rhymes! They already are! NOTHING endures like culture for children. There are games children play today that haven't changed since Roman times.
I too am doubled over with laughter at the thought of ranking NiN with Pink Floyd. Talk about something people will be listening to FIVE hundred years from now! "Dark Side of the Moon" may turn out to be like the Bible and the Boy Scout Handbook: in the 26th Century it would still be on the Billboard Top 200 if they hadn't hurriedly passed a special rule to disqualify it!
Still I think NiN is one of the better bands/performers around and it's a genre I like. I'm hoping to go see them/him when they/he come through here next month. I also love a lot of pure pop music. It's just wonderful to be alive now when there's so much music around. I'm too busy enjoying it all to complain!
Tyler N.
10-29-05, 04:43 PM
I came back just in time to see this revived. This thread is privy to my most outrageous statement ever. The lyrical theme seems to get old, but the lyrics are still good. Just try analyizing a song. I'll give an example: somewhat damaged. The title alone utilises irony, which is more then 90% of all pop bands do. Then, read the first paragraph/stanza (don't know what to call it, but stanza is close because it is actually arranged poetically, like most good lyrics).
so impressed with all you do
tried so hard to be like you
flew too high and burnt the wing
lost my faith in everything
It has a meter, a rhyme scheme, and rythem (not sure on terminology), which again outdoes quite a few people. Then, there even is an allusion to a story, which is beyond many bands. And look at how specific it is. It actually explains why he is depressed, unlike other bands. Now, stanza two:
lick around divine debris
taste the wealth of hate in me
shedding skin succumb defeat
this machine is obsolete
alliteration is added, and used to connect lines 1 and 3. Look at line one, this is right on the money. in four words, he describes what takes most bands a whole song. Notice that trent rhymes bigger words then most bands use, let alone rhyme. I won't go on, I think you get the point. The lyrics are very underrated.
Fraggle Rocker
10-29-05, 04:49 PM
Yes, he's almost as good as The Master of Lyrics, Frank Zappa. Jeeze do I miss him.
Gattaca
10-31-05, 12:12 AM
Good music is poetry with sound. Smooch with NIN.
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