View Full Version : Is there really a difference between pornography and prostitution ?
Challenger78
10-14-08, 07:43 AM
I read one of tiassa's posts, which said that prostitution and pornography are essentially the same, And I agree,
In pornography, you have sex with men you don't know, for money that you get from video sales.
In Prostitution, you have sex with men you don't know, for money that you get straight. (without the middle men)
Pornography is legal and Prostitution isn't, whats the difference ?..
Maybe because prostitution isn't taxable ?..
No, it isn't. And why the female-centric view on this? Are there no male prostitutes? Male pornstars?
The reason prostitution isn't the same thing as pornography? There are many. First, adult film stars are routinely tested for STDs. Second, they are both professionals, and both paid for their services. And technically, the service offered by a porn star is not the other person, but to the studio he or she works for; whereas the prostitute is offering sexual stimulation.
Saying they are the same is an archaic view on the subject, and anyone who prescribes to it should be ashamed of themselves.
No, it isn't. And why the female-centric view on this? Are there no male prostitutes? Male pornstars?
Where's the gynocentric view on this?
The reason prostitution isn't the same thing as pornography? There are many. First, adult film stars are routinely tested for STDs. Second, they are both professionals, and both paid for their services. And technically, the service offered by a porn star is not the other person, but to the studio he or she works for; whereas the prostitute is offering sexual stimulation.
Only one of those differences is relevant. After all, prostitutes in legal brothels are routinely tested, too. The only substantial difference between the two industries is that your money pays the producer (analogously a pimp) to have the porn star (analogously the prostitute) have sex with someone else; the prostitute is paid to have sex with you.
Beyond this, the essentials of the job are the same; from the prostitute or porn star's point of view, it generally doesn't matter who they are having sex with.
Also, you have an interesting argument pattern. Thesis, support, contradiction, support, conclusion. Most people, I admit, routinely leave out the part where they contradict their thesis.
Saying they are the same is an archaic view on the subject, and anyone who prescribes to it should be ashamed of themselves.
It depends on how similar you intend to describe them. They are, essentially, the same. The differences that make pornography effectively legal are small, technical details of the kind a lawyer is paid to figure out. Namely, pornography can, in certain contexts, be called "art". For instance, here really isn't much of a First Amendment issue with basic prostitution.
In the end, though, they are both fucking for money.
• • •
Maybe because prostitution isn't taxable ?
The differences, as I noted in the prior section, are small. Namely it has to do with who the prostitute is paid to fuck, or, from the consumer's point of view, what you're actually putting down money for. Beyond that, prosecutors are reluctant to lose a First Amendment case about pornography, so they only bust egregious violators, and usually for other reasons. Prostitution, on such occasions, is a prosecutor's tax evasion to the pornographer's Al Capone.
kenworth
10-14-08, 10:13 AM
pornography is an art form,prostitution is not
:P
Steve100
10-14-08, 10:22 AM
Here in England I think prostitution is legal, so long as you're not using it as a main source of income, or parading up and down the street.
Cellar_Door
10-14-08, 03:29 PM
Tiassa -
After all, prostitutes in legal brothels are routinely tested, too.
Challenger78 -
Pornography is legal and Prostitution isn't, whats the difference ?..
Brothels are illegal in the UK and in brothels operating outside of the law there are no regular, monitored STIs checks WHATSOEVER. JDawg's point is not irrelevant - yours is.
There are many similarities between pornography and prostitution, but you're ignoring the important differences.
Prostitution is dangerous: many prostitutes are severely assaulted and even killed each year by sexually perverted and violent customers. Pornography is between two porn professionals who are very much on the same level as eachother.
Is there really a difference between pornography and prostitution?
If you can't tell the difference betwen some one in the room with you and a video, well what more is there to say?
CutsieMarie89
10-15-08, 01:55 AM
Actually I don't see a real difference either between porn actors and prostitutes that work at professional brothels. They are doing the exact same things really except one is offering a service while the other is meant for entertainment. Except brothels have certain rules and regulations that they abide by and for porn movies it probably differs by contract or whatever.
Is looking at pictures of heroin the same as doing it?
CutsieMarie89
10-15-08, 02:03 AM
Is looking at pictures of heroin the same as doing it?
I don't think the question is asking if watching porn is the same as having a sex with a prostitute. Is it did I miss something? :confused:
Asguard
10-15-08, 02:15 AM
tiassa, there is one difference, that is that although the prositute is regually tested his\her clients ARNT (as far as i know no legal brothal requires STD testing done on there clients anyway)
Where as both porn starts are tested and required to abstain from sex with any other partners to ensure they are clean
technically there is one other related difference, a legal brothal requires condom use where as a porn star is required NOT to use one but that goes back to the above
CutsieMarie89
I don't think the question is asking if watching porn is the same as having a sex with a prostitute. Is it did I miss something?
Yes because that is the difference. Watching porn is not the same as having a sex with a prostitute, or bartering sex with gifts.
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-15-08, 05:08 AM
They are the same in that each involves consenting adults & should not be illegal.
StrangerInAStrangeLa
They are the same in that each involves consenting adults & should not be illegal.
Definately
Orleander
10-15-08, 06:10 AM
I know if I was a hooker, I'd just rent a hotel room, set up a camera and sell the video, not the sex.
cosmictraveler
10-15-08, 06:16 AM
Is there really a difference between pornography and prostitution ?
I can see pornography for free on the internet or in magazines but must pay for a prostitute most of the time.:(
Challenger78
10-15-08, 06:59 AM
Tiassa -
Challenger78 -
There are many similarities between pornography and prostitution, but you're ignoring the important differences.
Prostitution is dangerous: many prostitutes are severely assaulted and even killed each year by sexually perverted and violent customers. Pornography is between two porn professionals who are very much on the same level as eachother.
Ah, So they're professionals.. So whats with all these amateur films that we keep hearing about ?
They're not even close to the same thing, guys.
Challenger78
10-15-08, 07:51 AM
They're not even close to the same thing, guys.
Why not ?
You have sex for money, with men and women you don't know in both cases.
lucifers angel
10-15-08, 09:52 AM
Tiassa -
Challenger78 -
Brothels are illegal in the UK and in brothels operating outside of the law there are no regular, monitored STIs checks WHATSOEVER. JDawg's point is not irrelevant - yours is.
There are many similarities between pornography and prostitution, but you're ignoring the important differences.
Prostitution is dangerous: many prostitutes are severely assaulted and even killed each year by sexually perverted and violent customers. Pornography is between two porn professionals who are very much on the same level as eachother.
yes your right, however, massage parlours offer certain services and for the most part the police leave them alone, there must be 50/55 massage parlours in Blackpool alone, and they operate without any problem from the police and so they should
Cellar_Door
10-15-08, 10:52 AM
yes your right, however, massage parlours offer certain services and for the most part the police leave them alone, there must be 50/55 massage parlours in Blackpool alone, and they operate without any problem from the police and so they should
That doesn't make them legal, neither does it mean they are checked out regularly (if at all).
Ah, So they're professionals.. So whats with all these amateur films that we keep hearing about ?
If they're not paid professionals then it's just a sex tape. Besides, with no money involved, where's the link with prostitution?
EmptyForceOfChi
10-15-08, 11:09 AM
Ofcourse they are different, they are simular yes but simular is not exact. Therefore we give them 2 different names, why do you think we don't call pornstars prostitutes? because we use a different word to describe a different action in the english language.
an apple is simular to a pear but they are not the same.
peace.
Only one of those differences is relevant. After all, prostitutes in legal brothels are routinely tested, too. The only substantial difference between the two industries is that your money pays the producer (analogously a pimp) to have the porn star (analogously the prostitute) have sex with someone else; the prostitute is paid to have sex with you.
I'll concede that legal brothels have their ladies tested, but that is where the similarities end. To compare a producer to a pimp is ridiculous. First, all the parties involved in the sex in a porno are paid...whereas in prostitution, only the prostitute is paid. And in that case, the prostitute is being paid to sexually satisfy the John (or Jane), whereas in a pornography, nobody is paying for sexual gratification. Yes, in the end, the consumer pays to watch, but that is irrelevant.
Beyond this, the essentials of the job are the same; from the prostitute or porn star's point of view, it generally doesn't matter who they are having sex with.
Sure it does. Female pornstars are the stars of the show in pornography, and can pick and choose as they please; and if you know anything about the industry, they exercise this right quite often; there are some female actresses that will only work with black men, while there are others who refuse to work with a man who is over a certain size. Some women refuse to work with men altogether, and stick to the girl-girl portion of the industry--which, by the way, rakes in a ton of money.
The comparison doesn't fit.
Also, you have an interesting argument pattern. Thesis, support, contradiction, support, conclusion. Most people, I admit, routinely leave out the part where they contradict their thesis.
You have an interesting pattern as well. Well, it's less of a pattern as much as it is just a general lack of knowledge in any subject you decide to dive headlong into. I've never seen someone so pathetically out of touch in all subjects. At least the religious kooks know something about their own faith usually.
It depends on how similar you intend to describe them. They are, essentially, the same.
Again, no they are not. If you want to use that kind of logic, then me having sex with my girlfriend is essentially the same, considering that I had to court her with dinners and dates and movies. I essentially paid for the right to have sex with her, but it was more of a lay-a-way than a direct purchase...according to your logic, anyway, which we all know isn't really logic at all.
In the end, though, they are both fucking for money.
True, but that's as close as the comparisons get.
wsionynw
10-15-08, 11:22 AM
I would argue that they are more or less the same, the main difference being due to the law prostitution has gone underground (or kerbside in most cases) making it more sleazy in people's eyes.
You will find little issues on the streets of Amsterdam between the two, it's a choice of watching people have sex or joining in yourself. Note that the prostitute still has the choice whether or not to engage with a particular client, just as the sex performer does. In fact some sex shows offer audience participation, which surely blurs the line further.
Orleander
10-15-08, 06:48 PM
Do you have to have some kind of license to make a movie?
I would argue that they are more or less the same, the main difference being due to the law prostitution has gone underground (or kerbside in most cases) making it more sleazy in people's eyes.
You will find little issues on the streets of Amsterdam between the two, it's a choice of watching people have sex or joining in yourself. Note that the prostitute still has the choice whether or not to engage with a particular client, just as the sex performer does. In fact some sex shows offer audience participation, which surely blurs the line further.
If a live sex show has audience participation, then it isn't pornography--it's prostitution. I really have a hard time seeing these similarities other than the fact that sex and money are involved. Again, nobody will take me up on the notion that following Tiassa's "logic", then prostitution and pornography are no different than my relationship with my girlfriend.
Again, no they are not.
I'll repeat my point again, so we're clear:
• Beyond this, the essentials of the job are the same; from the prostitute or porn star's point of view, it generally doesn't matter who they are having sex with.
• It depends on how similar you intend to describe them. They are, essentially, the same.
• In the end, though, they are both fucking for money.
Now, you have omitted none of this in what you quoted, but I want you to focus on the first two. A certain word appears, albeit in different forms, in both. The similarity is essential. The word essential is defined (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/essentially), in this context, "of, relating to, or constituting". Synonyms include fundamental, vital, and cardinal. The jobs are fundamentally the same. The vital similarity is that they both fuck for money. The cardinal aspect (e.g., without which the practice disappears) is the idea of sexual acts in exchange for money.
You even concede the point:
True, but that's as close as the comparisons get.
That's all the comparison needs to accommodate the word essentially.
If you want to use that kind of logic, then me having sex with my girlfriend is essentially the same, considering that I had to court her with dinners and dates and movies. I essentially paid for the right to have sex with her, but it was more of a lay-a-way than a direct purchase...according to your logic, anyway, which we all know isn't really logic at all.
By that reasoning, the only purpose of courting is to buy sex. As such, the idea of getting to know someone, of deciding whether or not you wish to engage in sexual relations or build a lasting relationship are irrelevant. If that's the case, and the only reason for taking a potential partner for dinner and a movie is to buy sexual favors, then yes, it is essentially the same thing.
Ask your girlfriend what your pre-sexual dating was for. Tell her you thought you were buying sex and let us know what she says.
• • •
Do you have to have some kind of license to make a movie?
No, not really. If you want to sell the movie, you might choose to get a business license, but I don't think it's strictly necessary if, say, you and your husband decide to make a movie and sell a few DVDs at a garage sale. Depending on the scale of the operation, a business license will eventually become necessary.
• • •
an apple is simular to a pear but they are not the same.
Or, perhaps, we might say that a Granny Smith and a Jonagold are both apples, but they're not the same thing.
The pear would be the geeky-looking waiter who stands behind the cash register and appears to masturbate while watching you fuck your partner on the buffet table, although we never see his penis in any sense that proves it's his.
In the film, that is. In real life, we'd probably call that a health hazard. One of several.
Tiassa
the essentials of the job are the same; from the prostitute or porn star's point of view, it generally doesn't matter who they are having sex with.
I think you are over simplifying. In particular I've never seen porn stars self report as prostitutes or prostitutes self report as porn stars. Granted my sampling is small but both groups have a presence on the web. You could ask them directly.
they are both fucking for money.
Lot's of people fuck for money, surrogote mothers, sperm donars, debutantes, etc. That doesn't mean they are all prostitutes.
[Mea Culpa - error with drawn]You are still ignoreing every one and everything else involved. A hit man and a doctor both cut people for money. Are doctors hit men?
[I'm glad everything else here meets with your substantive agreement.]
Also you are focusing just on the woman ....
Would you do me a favor, please, and support this point? I just went back and searched my two prior posts (http://www.sciforums.com/search.php?searchid=2454900) in this discussion, and apparently I'm still missing it. Help me out, please.
CutsieMarie89
10-16-08, 02:37 AM
I think you are over simplifying. In particular I've never seen porn stars self report as prostitutes or prostitutes self report as porn stars. Granted my sampling is small but both groups have a presence on the web. You could ask them directly.
Lot's of people fuck for money, surrogote mothers, sperm donars, debutantes, etc. That doesn't mean they are all prostitutes.
Also you are focusing just on the woman (which is a bit sexist since men are also prostitutes, porn stars and fuck for the money) while ignoreing every one and everything else involved. A hit man and a doctor both cut people for money. Are doctors hit men?
I thought a prostitute was someone who had sex in exchange for something else of value. It doesn't have to be money. If I had sex with someone just so that he would pay all of my bills or wash my windows I'd be prostituting myself, wouldn't I? I think you have a very narrow view of what a prostitute is, and surragate mothers and sperm donors don't fuck for money. What they do doesn't involving fucking at all.
CutsieMarie89
I thought a prostitute was someone who had sex in exchange for something else of value. It doesn't have to be money.
A quick peruse of various dictionaries gives a definite bias for money. But it really is a vague notion. I think the clear implication is that a hooker, call girl, or streetwalker is what is meant in which case money is the preferred tender, but some definitely barter for drugs.
I think any definition which can’t distinguish a call girl from a debutant is flawed.
Just as an aside both bonobos and penguins trade sex for items of value, prostitution in your sense of the word.
I'd be prostituting myself, wouldn't I?
I would say only figuratively.
I personally know at least one surrogate mother who certainly did fuck to get it in there, and I can’t imagine that is unheard of in cases where the mother isn’t producing viable eggs or doesn’t care for invasive or “unnatural procedures.”
lucifers angel
10-16-08, 04:16 AM
That doesn't make them legal, neither does it mean they are checked out regularly (if at all).
If they're not paid professionals then it's just a sex tape. Besides, with no money involved, where's the link with prostitution?
actually i know that the women/men who work in blackpool are checked regulary for std's/adis and so on, i know that for a fact
Baron Max
10-16-08, 08:33 AM
actually i know that the women/men who work in blackpool are checked regulary for std's/adis and so on, i know that for a fact
Well, yeah, but how long from possible infection until it shows up in the tests?
Or are you thinking that a prostitute has only one sex partner, then runs to the clinic to be tested before fuckin' another customer?
Baron Max
lucifers angel
10-16-08, 08:44 AM
Well, yeah, but how long from possible infection until it shows up in the tests?
Or are you thinking that a prostitute has only one sex partner, then runs to the clinic to be tested before fuckin' another customer?
Baron Max
no they ahve to work for about 3 months between tests and they are also told to use protection if they dont (the girls i know of) are told to go and work elsewhere
and the infection period differs from one infection to anouther
from the prostitute or porn star's point of view, it generally doesn't matter who they are having sex with.
You keep repeating that, but there is no basis for the claim on the pornstar's side of it.
They are, essentially, the same.
If that's the case, so is your relationship to your significant other.
In the end, though, they are both fucking for money.
So doctors and dentists have essentially the same job? Football players and baseball players do essentially the same thing? Barbers and manicurists? Breeders and trainers?
Now, you have omitted none of this in what you quoted, but I want you to focus on the first two. A certain word appears, albeit in different forms, in both. The similarity is essential. The word essential is defined, in this context, "of, relating to, or constituting". Synonyms include fundamental, vital, and cardinal. The jobs are fundamentally the same. The vital similarity is that they both fuck for money. The cardinal aspect (e.g., without which the practice disappears) is the idea of sexual acts in exchange for money.
The question of this thread was not "are there similarities", but "Is there really a difference". And as I've already said, yes, there are similarities. But similar does not mean the same. Nor does it mean they are "essentially" the same. Again, doctors and dentists both treat physicals ailments, so are their jobs "essentially" the same? Of course not. There are fundamental differences between these jobs, just as there are fundamental (read: essential) differences between prostitution and pornography)
By that reasoning, the only purpose of courting is to buy sex. As such, the idea of getting to know someone, of deciding whether or not you wish to engage in sexual relations or build a lasting relationship are irrelevant. If that's the case, and the only reason for taking a potential partner for dinner and a movie is to buy sexual favors, then yes, it is essentially the same thing.
But what you have been saying up until now is that there is no difference between prostitution and pornography. You even showed how, in your opinion, every player in each scenario was analogous.
Ask your girlfriend what your pre-sexual dating was for. Tell her you thought you were buying sex and let us know what she says.
I'm attractive. There is no pre-sexual dating.
Baron Max
10-16-08, 08:49 AM
no they ahve to work for about 3 months between tests .....
And how many people could they infect in 3 months time? Scary, huh?
So now my question is ...what the fuck good do the test do?
Baron Max
I'm attractive. There is no pre-sexual dating.
You have sex with people before you even date them? I'm not sure how that speaks for the judgment of either party.
I think to both pornstars and prostitutes, sex is a profession. They do it for material profit not personal fulfillment.
OMG this made me LOL
Sell a few homemade porno's of you and your husband at a GARAGE SALE, on your DRIVEWAY? LOL
3/4 of the customers at the Garage Sale are Indian and will give you 25 cents for it. Then they go back to Orleanders house after watching half of it and demand their 25cents back because it wasn't worth it.
:roflmao:
Just out of interest why are Indians mentioned here?
LOL
shorty_37
10-16-08, 08:53 AM
Just out of interest why are Indians mentioned here?
LOL
Why? because we have a garage sale every yr and they come in droves. Then they offer you 25 cents for everything. So when I read his post, I could just picture it.
Well, yeah, but how long from possible infection until it shows up in the tests?
Or are you thinking that a prostitute has only one sex partner, then runs to the clinic to be tested before fuckin' another customer?
Baron Max
Wonder who infected the prostitute in the first place? Wonder if he infected his girlfriend/wife as well, eh?
Why? because we have a garage sale every yr and they come in droves. Then they offer you 23 cents for everything. So when I read his post, I could just picture it.
LOL
You have sex with people before you even date them? I'm not sure how that speaks for the judgment of either party.
Not well, trust me. To be fair, I'm a dude, so all I really care about is humping until I fall asleep...and even then, I'll only stop if you roll me over. :p
I think to both pornstars and prostitutes, sex is a profession. They do it for material profit not personal fulfillment.
That's an apt comparison and description. The same method could be used to describe a medical doctor and a dentist.
Just out of interest why are Indians mentioned here?
LOL
You have to understand shorty has a broad definition of the word Indians
Honestly I don't know the specific background. I tend to compile them all into one, Indians, Pakistan, Muslim....all pretty much the same to me. .
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2039782&postcount=73
:shrug:Not well, trust me. To be fair, I'm a dude, so all I really care about is humping until I fall asleep...and even then, I'll only stop if you roll me over. :p
That's an apt comparison and description. The same method could be used to describe a medical doctor and a dentist.
Sure why not? I think a pornstar has as much choice in rejecting an "unattractive" co-star as a call girl has in rejecting an unattractive john. Personally, the only difference is that the pornstar also gets royalties [hopefully] and has to be photogenic or at least marginally attractive. While a prostitute just has to be.
Baron Max
10-16-08, 09:04 AM
Wonder who infected the prostitute in the first place? Wonder if he infected his girlfriend/wife as well, eh?
The difference, of course, is number of partners ....unless the first guy was an "addict" or lucky to have numerous partners or something.
Perhaps we should all be required to pick one sex partner at puberty .....and never, ever, be permitted to have sex with anyone else for as long as we live?
Baron Max
The difference, of course, is number of partners ....unless the first guy was an "addict" or lucky to have numerous partners or something.
Perhaps we should all be required to pick one sex partner at puberty .....and never, ever, be permitted to have sex with anyone else for as long as we live?
Baron Max
Or we should just keep our big fat noses out of other people's sex lives? Unless of course voyeurism floats your boat....
Baron Max
10-16-08, 09:15 AM
Or we should just keep our big fat noses out of other people's sex lives?
Would you feel the same way if your wife came home from a "date" and infected you with STDs?
Would you feel the same way if your daughter came home from a "date" and you discovered that she was infected by some guy?
See? It does affect our lives ...some more than others, but still.....
But then, maybe we shouldn't worry about it. Soon everyone on Earth will have all of the STDs that's possible to have, then it won't matter who they have sex with. But thankfully I'll be dead by then, so why should I care?
Baron Max
Would you feel the same way if your wife came home from a "date" and infected you with STDs?
Would you feel the same way if your daughter came home from a "date" and you discovered that she was infected by some guy?
See? It does affect our lives ...some more than others, but still.....
But then, maybe we shouldn't worry about it. Soon everyone on Earth will have all of the STDs that's possible to have, then it won't matter who they have sex with. But thankfully I'll be dead by then, so why should I care?
Baron Max
Well I wouldn't trust anyone who'd be dumb enough to marry me.
I would attempt to educate my daughter before she went on that date.
Where there is sex there is STD. Either get over it or get someone to wear a condom. Prevention is better than cure. Simple when you know how.
Syzygys
10-16-08, 09:32 AM
man, this is one bad post...
The reason prostitution isn't the same thing as pornography? There are many. First, adult film stars are routinely tested for STDs.
And prostitutes aren't? Quite a few are, at least my Butterfly is. (did I say too much?)
Second, they are both professionals, and both paid for their services.
So are whores. I bet there are more whores with college degrees than pornstars, by the way.
As an asnwer to the OP, morally it is the same, legally it isn't...
man, this is one bad post...
At least you admit it before you write it...I appreciate the warning.
And prostitutes aren't? Quite a few are, at least my Butterfly is. (did I say too much?)
But most aren't.
So are whores.
No, dude, the point is that both parties in a porno are paid. Did the prostitute pay you? No. That changes the whole dynamic of it. The guy in the porn isn't paying for the sex; he's being paid.
I bet there are more whores with college degrees than pornstars, by the way.
Considering that most prostitutes are drug addicts under the control of brutal pimps...I'd have to disagree with you on that one. And I'd also disagree simply because you didn't base that ridiculous assumption on anything of merit.
As an asnwer to the OP, morally it is the same, legally it isn't...
Morally? According to whom?
lucifers angel
10-16-08, 10:08 AM
And how many people could they infect in 3 months time? Scary, huh?
So now my question is ...what the fuck good do the test do?
Baron Max
well if both the men and the women followed the rules then they would use protection and there wouldnt be any worries about them spreeding infections would there,
however it is not just down to the woman it is also down to the guy to use protection, if the man doesnt insist or the woman doesnt insist then they run that risk
lucifers angel
10-16-08, 10:10 AM
At least you admit it before you write it...I appreciate the warning.
But most aren't.
No, dude, the point is that both parties in a porno are paid. Did the prostitute pay you? No. That changes the whole dynamic of it. The guy in the porn isn't paying for the sex; he's being paid.
Considering that most prostitutes are drug addicts under the control of brutal pimps...I'd have to disagree with you on that one. And I'd also disagree simply because you didn't base that ridiculous assumption on anything of merit.
Morally? According to whom?
that is one big assumtption dont you think? why can't women and men do it because they enjoy it?
i know girls who worked in that area and none of them are drug abusers and under control of pimps, they are in a safe enviroment and they are looked after and shouldnt that be the way
that is one big assumtption dont you think? why can't women and men do it because they enjoy it?
There are some that do. Those are probably ones that work at higher-class places. But more often than not, they are poor young girls that are basically stolen from their lives by pimps and addicted to some form of drug.
i know girls who worked in that area and none of them are drug abusers and under control of pimps, they are in a safe enviroment and they are looked after and shouldnt that be the way
Again, there are some like that yes. But there are far more girls in the street than in the kind of places that can protect them, and the majority of street prostitutes are controlled by pimps and/or hooked on drugs.
Syzygys
10-16-08, 07:32 PM
Morally? According to whom?
Since I wrote the post, take a wild guess! :)
By the way note, I didn't say it was good or bad, just that they were the same.
Tiassa
the essentials of the job are the same; from the prostitute or porn star's point of view, it generally doesn't matter who they are having sex with.
I think you are over simplifying. In particular I've never seen porn stars self report as prostitutes or prostitutes self report as porn stars. Granted my sampling is small but both groups have a presence on the web. You could ask them directly.
they are both fucking for money.
Lot's of people fuck for money, surrogote mothers, sperm donars, debutantes, etc. That doesn't mean they are all prostitutes.
[corrected]You are still ignoring every one and everything else involved. A hit man and a doctor both cut people for money. Are doctors hit men?
I think you are over simplifying.
So you said. I've never seen Christians self-report as a hate group°, either; and, frankly, while I have heard a porn star self-identify as a prostitute, it wasn't explicit In fact I recall it an the old joke: He told me I was a cheap whore, and that pissed me off. I'm not cheap.
You are still ignoring every one and everything else involved.
Actually, I'm not. But if it makes you feel better to say so, go for it. In truth, I remember snorting at whatever your example was then. And, frankly, the corrected form doesn't do much better:
You are still ignoring every one and everything else involved. A hit man and a doctor both cut people for money. Are doctors hit men?
Revisit the post you responded to the first time you made this post.
The similarity is essential. The word essential is defined (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/essentially), in this context, "of, relating to, or constituting". Synonyms include fundamental, vital, and cardinal. The jobs are fundamentally the same. The vital similarity is that they both fuck for money. The cardinal aspect (e.g., without which the practice disappears) is the idea of sexual acts in exchange for money.
The problem with comparing doctors and hit men is that the purpose is essential. If a hit man healed his victim, the cardinal aspect of what constitutes hit man—e.g. contract murder—evaporates. If a doctor cut a patient with the intent of causing death at someone else's behest, the cardinal aspect of why one is a doctor—e.g., healing—disappears.
Likewise, if you take the sexual act out of prostitution, it becomes something else entirely, such as massage or performance art. Take the sexual act out of pornography, and it becomes mere drama.
• • •
You keep repeating that, but there is no basis for the claim on the pornstar's side of it.
Consider a contract in which a female porn actress stipulated specifically that she will not perform with Ron Jeremy. Beyond that, generally it didn't matter. Pay attention to modifiers such as adverbs. You seem to be reading certain sentences as if they were absolute declarations, as if modifiers like generally and essentially aren't there.
If that's the case, so is your relationship to your significant other.
While there are certain aspects of my last significant relationship° that contribute to your point, those circumstances are generally deviations from significant relationships.
Of significant relationships in general, what is—nodding to CM89's point—the tangible profit exchanged, and from which party to the other, in significant relationships in general?
So doctors and dentists have essentially the same job? Football players and baseball players do essentially the same thing? Barbers and manicurists? Breeders and trainers?
I suppose it largely depends on where and how you identify the cardinal aspect of the occupations.
The question of this thread was not "are there similarities", but "Is there really a difference". And as I've already said, yes, there are similarities. But similar does not mean the same. Nor does it mean they are "essentially" the same. Again, doctors and dentists both treat physicals ailments, so are their jobs "essentially" the same? Of course not. There are fundamental differences between these jobs, just as there are fundamental (read: essential) differences between prostitution and pornography)
The cardinal aspect—that without which the prostitute stops being a prostitute and the porn star stops being a porn star—is the sexual act in exchange for money. Certainly, you can introduce "amateurs" who film themselves and then try to sell DVDs, but also in that, you need to account for the number of prostitutes circulating as objects of pornography. As a seriously-intended questions for your own consideration (I don't need a specific answer): How much pornography do you look at? And where do you get it? And what does it look like? For instance, if I said, "Go get a Gnutella client and search for video of prostitute, amateur, or crack whore", would I be recommending a new experience for you? If so, well, take the time. Once people have a world's worth of free porn at your fingertips, many will take the grand tour and peek in on things they never would have looked at otherwise.
But what you have been saying up until now is that there is no difference between prostitution and pornography.
And you even bothered to tag the italics around the word "no". Which is only so cute because it's so wrong.
I'm attractive. There is no pre-sexual dating.
Well, that would explain your strange presumptions about courting.
_____________________
Notes:
° Christians self-report as a hate group — Westboro Baptist Church, for instance.
° certain aspects of my last significant relationship — It was a bit of a mess, and it really is difficult to figure who was the prostitute and who was the client, as roles and currency, by this outlook, switched repeatedly. Was she fucking me for a place to live? Was I fucking her for drugs? Even as such, the questions aren't so clear-cut; I wasn't the primary lease-holder, and she wasn't the only person buying drugs. Nonetheless, very little about our relationship was not statistically deviant, unless you're willing to assert that the general nature of significant relationships is people so sharply dissatisfied with one another over a period of years continue to torture themselves like that. There is broad consensus from literally everyone who observed that relationship and cared to comment that it was abnormal.
Asguard
10-17-08, 01:47 AM
tiassa i could suggest that the difference is symilar to the difference between a nurse practitioner (i was going to say doctor but that seems to piss certain members off) in a hospital compared to an ambo
that is one works in what is essentually a controled enviroment where as the other works in an uncontroled one. They both provide medical assistance but that doesnt make them the same
Tiassa
frankly, while I have heard a porn star self-identify as a prostitute, it wasn't explicit
If your hypothesis were correct, we should hear prostitutes self reporting as porn stars, since that is a legal profession and doesn’t carry the stigma of being a prostitute. But we don’t.
In truth, I remember snorting at whatever your example was then.
That must have been some snort. You are trying to reduce two different professions to a single act and it is not working. Porn stars don’t solicit for example. Prostitutes don’t reshoot the same sex act 30 times.
The problem with comparing doctors and hit men is that the purpose is essential.
No the problem is you are you are arbitrarily deciding what is “essential” and what is not. So the key point is healing? Then I guess doctors and nurses are the same? Because they both heal for money.
Oh FYI, you don’t have to actually have sex to be a porn star. I know this will shock you but soft core can be entirely suggestion and camera angles. No need to pay the extra cost and risk of real penetration.
So is prostitution still prostitution without the sex?
If your hypothesis were correct, we should hear prostitutes self reporting as porn stars, since that is a legal profession and doesn’t carry the stigma of being a prostitute. But we don’t.
In the first place, being a legal porn star involves engaging in simulated sex acts. At least, that's how it works in the United States.
You are trying to reduce two different professions to a single act and it is not working.
Actually, I'm not. That's just the only part you've bothered to acknowledge.
Porn stars don’t solicit for example.
Their agents do that for them. Many prostitutes have pimps. And we use more polite words, like "madam" for that role in a brothel.
Prostitutes don’t reshoot the same sex act 30 times
If you have to re-shoot a porn scene thirty times, there's something seriously wrong on the set. The come-shot might have to be taken a couple of times, but the more your actor has to wipe semen off his or her face for the same shot, the lower your reputation as a director will fall.
No the problem is you are you are arbitrarily deciding what is “essential” and what is not. So the key point is healing? Then I guess doctors and nurses are the same? Because they both heal for money.
As I noted to JDawg: I suppose it largely depends on where and how you identify the cardinal aspect of the occupations.
I don't think the difference between healing and killing is arbitrary. These are cardinal aspects of the two professions in question.
Oh FYI, you don’t have to actually have sex to be a porn star. I know this will shock you but soft core can be entirely suggestion and camera angles. No need to pay the extra cost and risk of real penetration. [/color]
See above.
So is prostitution still prostitution without the sex?
I don't know, are we counting politicians?
Well, in the United States, the definition of prostitution generally includes any sexual act exchanged for money. So even if you picked someone up on the street and paid them money to masturbate for your private viewing, it's still an act of prostitution.
However, I will give you credit for invoking softcore pornography. After all, it didn't even occur to the thread starter, and thus wasn't part of the question to begin with.
Congratulations.
Consider a contract in which a female porn actress stipulated specifically that she will not perform with Ron Jeremy. Beyond that, generally it didn't matter. Pay attention to modifiers such as adverbs. You seem to be reading certain sentences as if they were absolute declarations, as if modifiers like generally and essentially aren't there.
No, I read those modifiers as inaccurate statements. As in, how do you know it generally doesn't matter who a pornstar has sex with? You make these assumptions clearly not having the first clue as to their validity. And then you hide behind these assertions by saying "But I said "generally"!"
Bogus.
While there are certain aspects of my last significant relationship° that contribute to your point, those circumstances are generally deviations from significant relationships.
Ah, no wonder you have such a fucked-up view on sex. You must have gotten burned bad.
I suppose it largely depends on where and how you identify the cardinal aspect of the occupations.
Nice way to weasel out of that one...
The cardinal aspect—that without which the prostitute stops being a prostitute and the porn star stops being a porn star—is the sexual act in exchange for money.
But pornstars aren't paid for sexual acts. They are paid for performances. So your "cardinal aspect" is flawed.
Is there really a difference between pornography and prostitution?
Without a doubt and the fact that there may also similarities doesn't change the fact that there are differences.
Tiassa
a legal porn star involves engaging in simulated sex acts.
Um, no. Hardcore filmed in the US is actual if uncomfortable and not very fun sex, as is at least some soft core. In fact its all pretty goofy if the out takes and first hand accounts are at all accurate. BTW, were does the gal who keeps the male actor hard fit into all this?
Also porn stars and their agents don't solicit sex. The are looking for roles.
If you have to re-shoot a porn scene thirty times, there's something seriously wrong on the set.
You shoot and reshoot until you are done and no necessarily in any order that makes sense in terms of having sex, hence the need for a gal you help keep the male star "in the mood."
Reshoot with a prostitute and its a new transaction.
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