Predation..

[SnakeLord]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

I took this picture a couple of days ago:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9568/waspfa5.jpg

You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.

I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

(Note 1: for those of you that take everything as an attack: I'm not arguing anything. I am asking a question).

(Note 2: I am asking for your individual opinions and beliefs)

[swarm]

God loves blood sacrifice and burnt flesh.

Children are his first choice, but if you bitch about it any young animal will do, lambs, calves, kids...cut their throats on the alter and let the blood flow then throw their dead bodies on the sacrificial fire.

[Leo Volont]

Well, "to make an omelette one might have to break a few eggs".

The Universe, as we see it, favors a Higher Organization of Life. The Higher a Lifeform evolves, the more immune that Life Form becomes in regards to the Predatory Foodchain.

Indeed, I had recently read an interesting book, "Blood Rites" by Barbara Ehrenreich (she actually got a Grant to write the book). She points out that Humanity has probably been impacted more by once having been vulnerable prey than by any more recent status of being a Top of the Food Chain Predator. For instance, the Institution of the Sacrifice may very well source from the days when the Tribe would suggest that somebody please go outside and assuage the Lion's appetite or it will never leave, allowing the tribe to get back to business.

Then Sacrifice may have evolved into something like Human Bait.

But now that Humanity seems to be on top of the Ol' Food Chain, one wonders what the complaint is? The Vegtable Kingdom is largely non-predatory, but we can see that plants and trees have very little in the way of Collective Social Behavior. The Predator-Prey dynamics have done much in the way of fascilitating Humanities trend toward social organization.

Oh, there is the matter of Predatory Behavior between some Humans and others. We have heard recently of Predatory Loan Practices. Really, much of Capitalism is predicated upon predatory assumptions and dynamics. Up until now Humanity, as a whole has been using Sacrifice to deal with these Human Predators... we are willing to Sacrifice Losers to the Greed of the Capitalist Lions. Sooner or later Humanity will rediscover its Old Secret for dealing with the Predators -- Big Sticks, Sharpened Points, and Collective Unity... then Club and Stab the crap out of the Lions... the Predators.

One wonders why Billions of people put up with a relative handful of people enslaving the rest... dictating ownership, workplace rules, everything in our lives... making a joke of Democracy! Government decides so little, while our Bosses crack the whips and make us all jump. If we don't like it we can quit... and starve.

Hey... we have nothing to lose but our chains...

[Leo Volont]

Oh, you might be delighted to learn that Lions and Tigers are almost extinct now. A few more decades of spraw and expansion and we will have a Perfect World.... just Human Beings and friendly House Pets.

[Michael]

You know, I asked this same question once. Why didn't God just make a universe where there was no need for food. Or even make this one but we get our energy from the sun-light.

But, alas, God... She loves Her BBQ? I can't say I blame her. I love T-bone steak too :)


And what about SEX? Why not make humans have no need for sexual reproduction that way all humans are equal and are tested equally. Why should some women have to endure a man who brings home an 18 year wife because he can't get a woody on the old one that's pumped out 12 kids? ... anyway, yes, god acts in mysterious ways yadda yadda yadda....

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Great photography!
There are no tigers left in Africa.
Life, the universe & everything seem to be designed but not very well. If I knew it is designed, I'd wonder about the motivation of the designer.
No need for sexual reproduction is good but I'd want sex if it's greatly improved.

[JDawg]

I think this is sort of where the need for religion comes from, actually; the idea that we are mortal, that all things are mortal. Perhaps a byproduct of our level of intelligence is the ability to think ourselves right out of our minds, and we need that one thing that can help each one of us cope when we encounter death...faith. I believe that is why mythology (and mythology centered around, or at least featuring, an afterlife) has existed everywhere for as long as we have existed.

Enough rambling, and on to your point.

I have thought of this same question, and honestly, it's just one more of the things that I bring up when zealots get on my case. I mean, if this universe was created by a loving presence, we would not be required to kill and eat life.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

The god of The Holy Babble is the worst example of love.

[SnakeLord]

Sorry Leo but none of that actually answers the question. You said; Well, "to make an omelette one might have to break a few eggs", which only examples the same thing - it doesn't explain why a creator, (that theists claim as 'loving'), would intelligently and intentionally create the system to work in such manner.

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

Very nice photo.
Where does it say that God designed nature (system)?
Material nature has its own characteristics.

jan.

[Leo Volont]

I actually did answer the question (and in significant detail), but I suppose I should have made it easier for the likes of you.

Sorry Leo but none of that actually answers the question. You said; Well, "to make an omelette one might have to break a few eggs", which only examples the same thing - it doesn't explain why a creator, (that theists claim as 'loving'), would intelligently and intentionally create the system to work in such manner.

[Baron Max]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

And just what would control the population explosions that would occur without predators?

And if all animals of the world ate only plants, it wouldn't be long before the over-population of animals would eat all the plants. Then what?

Baron Max

[JDawg]

And just what would control the population explosions that would occur without predators?

And if all animals of the world ate only plants, it wouldn't be long before the over-population of animals would eat all the plants. Then what?

Baron Max

As usual, the point flies right over your head.

...you must be really short.

It was more a question of "why would a supreme being that loves us makes us kill other life in order to sustain ourselves", not a question of "why can't we just stop eating each other".

[SnakeLord]

Where does it say that God designed nature (system)?

Maybe I have been mistaken then. A god didn't design nature?

-----

I actually did answer the question (and in significant detail), but I suppose I should have made it easier for the likes of you.

Unfortunately you did not - and your claim that you did isn't helped by the pointless ad hom stuck at the end of it.

-----

And just what would control the population explosions that would occur without predators?

A bigger planet?

Just to clarify.. You are telling me that this god designed predation to prevent running out of room? It's certainly original, I have some slight niggles with it - I shall get to them later.

And if all animals of the world ate only plants, it wouldn't be long before the over-population of animals would eat all the plants. Then what?

Why is that?

One further thing:

You have expressed your concern that we would run into problems if this god hadn't created predation. Even if we agreed with such a statement, (which is impossible to do with regards to a needless, omnipotent entity), it would give us a general form of system: (a kills b kills c) but wouldn't actually look into the details of that system. You see, it isn't anything remotely pleasant. Now, if predation is needed, you would think that a loving god would design it with the least torturous method possible in mind. This isn't evidenced - in fact it seems to be the complete opposite. The spider wasp for instance lays its eggs inside a living spider. It then seals that spider in a pre-dug hole and then eventually the eggs hatch and the still alive spider is eaten from the inside out. It seems, to me at least, that this isn't a case of a loving entity designing something required but a crazed lunatic designing something downright deplorable.

So the question: Would you consider anything.. 'overkill'? If so, why would that be the case and if not, on what basis would such actions be supported?

[Varda]

that's a beautiful picture, snakelord
may I see a high resolution version?

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

Maybe you are mistaken, or maybe not.
I'm not aware of any scripture which states that God designed material nature. He is always described as being in control of it.
Material nature has its laws, which include amongst other things, anihilation. The material body is subject to these laws, as it is also made of matter.

jan.

[Jan Ardena]

You know, I asked this same question once. Why didn't God just make a universe where there was no need for food. Or even make this one but we get our energy from the sun-light.

But, alas, God... She loves Her BBQ? I can't say I blame her. I love T-bone steak too :)


And what about SEX? Why not make humans have no need for sexual reproduction that way all humans are equal and are tested equally. Why should some women have to endure a man who brings home an 18 year wife because he can't get a woody on the old one that's pumped out 12 kids? ... anyway, yes, god acts in mysterious ways yadda yadda yadda....

Apparently there is a universe where everything is perfect, it is known as the spiritual world, or the Kingdom of God.

jan.

[swarm]

Jan Ardena Apparently there is a universe where everything is perfect, it is known as the spiritual world, or the Kingdom of God.

And how would you know? You've been there? Some body told you? You read it in a book?

Did you know gullible is not in the dictionary?

[Baron Max]

It was more a question of "why would a supreme being that loves us makes us kill other life in order to sustain ourselves", not a question of "why can't we just stop eating each other".

You seem to forget all your bible studies when you were a little boy ...or are you still a little boy?

Read about the Garden of Eden sometime. God did design a perfect world in the beginning, but then he gave us free will. Adam and Eve fucked up so God threw them out of the perfect garden. Remember?

Baron Max

[SnakeLord]

that's a beautiful picture, snakelord
may I see a high resolution version?

Certainly, once I have paid for my domain and hosting, (some time this week - whenever I get a moment). Until them I'm using imageshack :)

-----

I'm not aware of any scripture which states that God designed material nature. He is always described as being in control of it.
Material nature has its laws, which include amongst other things, anihilation. The material body is subject to these laws, as it is also made of matter.


1. Can I ask what designed nature and it's 'laws' then if not a god?

2. If the answer is 'nothing' am I to understand that you would state that predation, (including everything that goes with it), *poofed* itself into existence without direction from the gods?

Note that when I say 'everything that goes with it' I mean things like sharp teeth. The bible is quite clear that god created all the animals but if he didn't create predation then surely you should be under the impression that god created lions etc with flat teeth, (or no teeth), and these teeth just then appeared by themselves slightly later on? This goes for many things, from teeth to claws to defensive mechanisms. Did god design tortoises shell-less because there was nothing that was going to attack them?

There's one of the problems with the notion that a god created animals but not predation.

[Adstar]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

I took this picture a couple of days ago:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9568/waspfa5.jpg

You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.

I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

(Note 1: for those of you that take everything as an attack: I'm not arguing anything. I am asking a question).

(Note 2: I am asking for your individual opinions and beliefs)


Creation has been sabotaged because of the obtaining of the knowledge of good and evil. You observation is not of the designed state but observation of a twisted state.

In a future restored creation i believe such predation will come to an end.


Isaiah 11

6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[PsychoticEpisode]

Creation has been sabotaged because of the obtaining of the knowledge of good and evil. You observation is not of the designed state but observation of a twisted state.

In a future restored creation i believe such predation will come to an end.


Evening Adstar.....Has this been predicted? I think most of us here are having a problem with man's original sin responsible for turning docile creatures into ferocious killers. Now if well known carnivores today were around before the OS then were they specifically equipped for the hunt? You know fangs, claws, etc. or were they designed a bit different? Why did certain animals become killers? Why not killer sheep? For that matter why are they not all preying on each other?

[lightgigantic]

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.

I took this picture a couple of days ago:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9568/waspfa5.jpg

You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.

I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

(Note 1: for those of you that take everything as an attack: I'm not arguing anything. I am asking a question).

(Note 2: I am asking for your individual opinions and beliefs)
basically it boils down to dealing with the living entities desire to seek happiness separate from god, which inevitably involves wronging other living entities (who also come here for the same express purpose) ... so a backlog or karma gives us what we have - namely the material world operating by force (that inflicts experiences which compensate for our experiences that we inflict on others). This world acts as a shadow reflection of the original spiritual world which operates by love (or desire that harmoniously doesn't infringe on the rights/obligational duties of others).

Generally we have strong ideas how the world could be more harmonious - since inevitably these don't involve god, these ideas are constantly frustrated.

As a further point, sometimes it is argued that god could have made the world slightly less frustrating - the response is, that it is already operating on its lowest possible threshold of frustration.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Adstar & lightgigantic, would you guys try to figure out how to clip out part of the huge quote?

I actually thought I would just ask for theists opinions on why their god would design a system that works on predation. That is, why their god would create a system where in order to survive, organisms need to kill other organisms.
You know, we don't tend to notice it much. It's not like we're walking down the street too often and end up seeing one animal come along and rip another to shreds. We might of course see the occasional dog attacking a cat but it is a rarity, (around here at any rate). Although our fridges are full to the brim with other dead organisms that had to be killed to keep us alive, we never really acknowledge it or recognise it - it's something we take for granted. But when you spend your time looking at life this close up, as I do, you really notice a lot more than you would otherwise. The other day I saw a cluster fly stuck in a web in similar fashion, except it wiggled every now and then. That was it, it's life - wrapped up like a chicken in cellophane about to have its juices sucked out while still wriggling. A system purposely and intelligently designed by this god.
I'm interested in why you think a god would design a system in such manner.

[PsychoticEpisode]

Would you guys try to figure out how to clip out part of the huge quote?

Just hit quote then delete what you don't want. Don't erase quote tags. preview your posts until you get it right. Once you get used to it then its easy

[Adstar]

Evening Adstar.....Has this been predicted? I think most of us here are having a problem with man's original sin responsible for turning docile creatures into ferocious killers. Now if well known carnivores today were around before the OS then were they specifically equipped for the hunt? You know fangs, claws, etc. or were they designed a bit different? Why did certain animals become killers? Why not killer sheep? For that matter why are they not all preying on each other?

I don't know.

The knowledge of Good and Evil is the knowledge of both evil and good so therefore if nature was to reflect the changed nature of mankind then you would need both aspects represented.

Predator and Prey.

I guess if we simply came to the knowledge of just evil then the world might well be a world of predators. But i guess that world would not have lasted long would it. :D


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[PsychoticEpisode]

I don't know.

The knowledge of Good and Evil is the knowledge of both evil and good so therefore if nature was to reflect the changed nature of mankind then you would need both aspects represented.

Predator and Prey.

I guess if we simply came to the knowledge of just evil then the world might well be a world of predators. But i guess that world would not have lasted long would it. :D

Great answer but not unexpected. I like how you worked in G & E with Pred & Prey.

[KennyJC]

This is the sticking point for me:

If a sentient being designed our universe, then he made evolution to be predator and prey right off the bat. Right now life may be relatively comfortable and sometimes uncomfortable. But wait till your dying moment or wait until your guts are being eaten by prey as you hopelessly scream and your life ends in extreme misery and desperation.

God... Ha!

Nature is blind and thereby this sort of thing can be excused. Bring a god into the picture then the whole thing just becomes sick and twisted.

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

1. Can I ask what designed nature and it's 'laws' then if not a god?

I'll ask you again. What makes you think material nature is designed, or created by g(G)od.

2. If the answer is 'nothing' am I to understand that you would state that predation, (including everything that goes with it), *poofed* itself into existence without direction from the gods?

What about the, 'nature is eternal', option?

Note that when I say 'everything that goes with it' I mean things like sharp teeth.
The bible is quite clear that god created all the animals but if he didn't create predation then surely you should be under the impression that god created lions etc with flat teeth, (or no teeth), and these teeth just then appeared by themselves slightly later on? This goes for many things, from teeth to claws to defensive mechanisms. Did god design tortoises shell-less because there was nothing that was going to attack them?

Predation is necessary for survival in the material world, due to its nature, so bodies are equipt with mechanisms to perform the four basic functions, eat, sleep, reproduce, and defend.
The material world is constantly changing; things come into being, they grow, they produce off-spring, they deteriorate, and then they die. This is due to the nature of matter.

jan

[swarm]

SnakeLord

1. Can I ask what designed nature and it's 'laws' then if not a god?

Nature doesn't require design. "Laws" are something we invent to describe our understanding of how nature works.

2. If the answer is 'nothing' am I to understand that you would state that predation, (including everything that goes with it), *poofed* itself into existence without direction from the gods?

The answer is not "nothing." The answer is your question is flawed. Predation didn't just "poof" with or without gods. It developed over the course of time.

here is a little quicky paper on the evolution of the jaw: http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/armored-fish/armored-fish.htm
something more scholarly: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1383/3A001.htm

The bible is just your book. It was written by bronze age sheep herders. How much bronze age wisdom do you trust today? Why do you still trust that?

[Jan Ardena]

Jan Ardena Apparently there is a universe where everything is perfect, it is known as the spiritual world, or the Kingdom of God.

And how would you know? You've been there? Some body told you? You read it in a book?

Did you know gullible is not in the dictionary?

My response was directed at Michael, in similar mood to his question.
As the word "gullible" is defined in the dictionary, I assume there is a point to your question.

Did you know that "apparently" is defined in the dictionary?

Also, I think you'll find that SnakeLord, is most probably more in agreement with your understanding, than not.

jan.

[swarm]

Jan Ardena

My response ...

So how would you know? You've been there? Somebody told you? You read it in a book?

You are making claims about this "kingdom of god" as if you actually know something about it but I think you are just parroting things someone else made up.

You do at least have travel brochures with nice glossy pics and smiling natives?

[JDawg]

You seem to forget all your bible studies when you were a little boy ...or are you still a little boy?

Read about the Garden of Eden sometime. God did design a perfect world in the beginning, but then he gave us free will. Adam and Eve fucked up so God threw them out of the perfect garden. Remember?

Baron Max

Oh, you took that story literally?

Wow.

I wonder if it was your age or your IQ...

[SnakeLord]

Adstar

Creation has been sabotaged because of the obtaining of the knowledge of good and evil.

1. Am I to understand that when you say "sabotaged" you mean something other than god designed and created predation or that predation just *poofed* itself into existence?

2. 'Evil' must have existed before the obtaining of knowledge of it. Whom created 'evil'?

In a future restored creation i believe such predation will come to an end.

When you realise something is broken or, to use your words, "twisted" is there a valid reason you can think of to leave it broken for millennia upon millennia, (and we need to take into account your christian belief that 1 day to us is 1000 years to this god), if you have the ability and desire to fix it?

-----

lightgigantic

basically it boils down to dealing with the living entities desire to seek happiness separate from god, which inevitably involves wronging other living entities

I see. Why then are those that don't want to be separate from god but indeed want and declare a personal relationship with him victims of predation?

-----

Jan Ardena

I'll ask you again. What makes you think material nature is designed, or created by g(G)od.

I am an atheist, hence I don't think nature was designed or created by gods. I am asking theists - most of whom do. If you're not one of them, if you don't think nature was designed or created then feel free to not answer the question.

What about the, 'nature is eternal', option?

Kindly explain.

Predation is necessary for survival in the material world

A theist cannot argue necessity. Nothing is necessary with regards to gods and their creations.

-----

swarm

It seems you have got the wrong impression.

[Enmos]

Oh, you might be delighted to learn that Lions and Tigers are almost extinct now. A few more decades of spraw and expansion and we will have a Perfect World.... just Human Beings and friendly House Pets.

I will off myself if that happens.

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

“
basically it boils down to dealing with the living entities desire to seek happiness separate from god, which inevitably involves wronging other living entities
”
I see. Why then are those that don't want to be separate from god but indeed want and declare a personal relationship with him victims of predation?

-----
there is one term "parabdha karma"

(from "surrender unto me", a commentary on BG 4.37)

37 As a blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakur comments: “Krsna says, ‘For one whose heart has become purified, I destroy completely whatever karma has already been generated with the exception of his parabdha-karma.’” Transcendental knowledge thus destroys all reactions, both pious and sinful; all, that is, except parabhda-karma, or matured reactions, such as one’s present material body.

You might want to remember that a person on the platform you suggest can clearly see the distinctions between the activities of the body and the activities of the soul.

If parabdha karma got destroyed, a saintly person would simply vanish from external vision after perfecting their discipline. This would have implications for society at large, since they would be unable to indicate the path of spiritual perfection to others.

Actually a classic example of this is Jesus, who's body underwent so much torment simply for the sake of establishing religiosity in a down and out part of the world. Just because the body of a saintly person is severely tormented in no way indicates that they are actually tormented.

(Luke 23.34 Jesus kept saying, "Father, forgive them, because they don't know what they're doing." etc etc)

[SnakeLord]

If parabdha karma got destroyed, a saintly person would simply vanish from external vision after perfecting their discipline. This would have implications for society at large, since they would be unable to indicate the path of spiritual perfection to others.


I see. So basically it doesn't just boil down to ones desire to be separate from god but also down to ones perfected desire to be with god but the unfortunate fact that they have to remain here as much a victim as anyone else, because gaining an adequate desire to be with gods is something nobody can manage by themselves?

It's worth mentioning also that this doesn't really answer the question. I originally asked why god designed and implemented predation. You said because of ones desire to be separate from god. Let me please just clarify. Are you saying that 'god designed predation because certain individuals didn't want to be with him'?

[swarm]

SnakeLord
It seems you have got the wrong impression.

Drat.
Nothing like a perfectly good rant getting messed up by a misperception.
Sorry about that.

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

I am an atheist, hence I don't think nature was designed or created by gods. I am asking theists - most of whom do. If you're not one of them, if you don't think nature was designed or created then feel free to not answer the question.

The question has nothing to do with the design of nature, from my perspective, but is about the nature of living beings.
I have answered the question posed by you, but am still curious as to why you think that theists believe God actually designed nature itself.
You say some theist believe this. Can you give any examples?

Kindly explain.

Explain?
Okay.
That nature itself (as in material) is never destroyed, therefore it never begun.

A theist cannot argue necessity. Nothing is necessary with regards to gods and their creations.

Why not? and Why not?


swarm,

So how would you know? You've been there? Somebody told you? You read it in a book?

Are you purposely acting obtuse, or did you really not understand my response to your post?

You are making claims about this "kingdom of god" as if you actually know something about it but I think you are just parroting things someone else made up.

Did you look up the word "apparently"? I did leave a hint.

apparently;

according to what seems true: according to what seems to be the case but may not actually be so

jan.

[SnakeLord]

I have answered the question posed by you, but am still curious as to why you think that theists believe God actually designed nature itself.
You say some theist believe this. Can you give any examples?

Most certainly. All those espousing ID, (Intelligent design) and those that have answered this post, (on this forum and others), by saying "god designed predation because..", which seems to be the majority of people that bothered.

Furthermore,

"..the portion of the universe which we can comprehend seems designed for a purpose, despite our personal opinion." - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

"Those personal opinions of "poor design" are irrelivant, as they make no difference to the fact that things do look designed" - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

I do believe that predation would be included in "things" and most certainly seems to be a "portion of our universe which we can comprehend". Perhaps not.

That nature itself (as in material) is never destroyed, therefore it never begun.

So it is equal in eternal status alongside god? Something separate from god existed alongside him for eternity?

Why not? and Why not?

Omnipotence and the lack of needs - unless of course the theist argues that their version of a god isn't omnipotent and/or does have needs.

[Jan Ardena]

Most certainly. All those espousing ID, (Intelligent design) and those that have answered this post, (on this forum and others), by saying "god designed predation because..", which seems to be the majority of people that bothered.

Furthermore,

"..the portion of the universe which we can comprehend seems designed for a purpose, despite our personal opinion." - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

"Those personal opinions of "poor design" are irrelivant, as they make no difference to the fact that things do look designed" - Jan Ardena (why do you value truth more than hope..)

I do believe that predation would be included in "things" and most certainly seems to be a "portion of our universe which we can comprehend". Perhaps not.



So it is equal in eternal status alongside god? Something separate from god existed alongside him for eternity?



Omnipotence and the lack of needs - unless of course the theist argues that their version of a god isn't omnipotent and/or does have needs.

Those are examples of universal design, not the design of nature.
If you believe that the universe and nature are one and the same, then I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes, that is its "nature".

The arguments for "God cannot be omnipotent", for whatever reason, is silly, as it does not take into account God himself.
Saying that, I still don't understand why you have posed limitations on what theists can and cannot argue about.

jan.

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

I see. So basically it doesn't just boil down to ones desire to be separate from god but also down to ones perfected desire to be with god but the unfortunate fact that they have to remain here as much a victim as anyone else, because gaining an adequate desire to be with gods is something nobody can manage by themselves?

I'm not sure if you grabbed the import of ...

You might want to remember that a person on the platform you suggest can clearly see the distinctions between the activities of the body and the activities of the soul.

They have absolutely no impediments for acting on the spiritual platform (ie reciprocating with god, directly)

It's worth mentioning also that this doesn't really answer the question. I originally asked why god designed and implemented predation. You said because of ones desire to be separate from god. Let me please just clarify. Are you saying that 'god designed predation because certain individuals didn't want to be with him'?
predation is kind of the default position of not being socialized around god ... our relationship with god acts as a prototype for all our other sorts of relationship ---(just to unpack that, the suggestion is that we left the direct association of god due to issues of envy, etc, so when we come to this world, the default position is to work along the lines of "Oh what a powerful position, I wish I could occupy it", "Oh what a beautiful body, I wish I could have it" etc etc which delivers one into predation as we commonly experience it, on both a gross and subtle platform .... in short, when you group or community of envious entities get together, the net result is predation amongst themselves, the swapping of roles between the exploited and the exploiter - this world is simply geared up to give facility to this proclivity)

[SnakeLord]

Those are examples of universal design, not the design of nature.
If you believe that the universe and nature are one and the same, then I understand your point, but I don't agree with it.

ID, being but "creationism in a cheap tuxedo", goes a lot deeper than you might be inclined to think. It goes all the way down to eyeballs, wings and blood clotting - it would be intellectually dishonest at best to stop short when it comes to sharp teeth, claws, toxins, and every other aspect of life that the IDist would have no choice but to consider equally fine tuned and designed. Come now, a snake can't just magically develop a poison that doesn't harm itself but always kills its prey. No sir.

Take the spider wasp as a good example. It comes equipped with the ability to knock out, (but not kill), a spider. While knocked out the wasp drags it to a secure place and lays its eggs inside the spider, (something it couldn't do if it couldn't knock out the spider). And interestingly the insides of the spider provide just what the spider wasp larvae need to survive on.

I consider it extremely dishonest and bad mannered to go about declaring design and stopping just at the moment the 'bad' stuff turns up - at which stage you either declare that as just *poofing* itself into existence or that it has always existed, (without much in the way of clairification).

Matter cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes, that is its "nature".

Sorry, can you put this in a more detailed way? (god therefore doesn't "create" but just re-shapes that which already exists? etc etc) Just as detailed as you can get it. Thanks in advance.

The arguments for "God cannot be omnipotent", for whatever reason, is silly, as it does not take into account God himself.

It only takes a god, (with declared attributes), into account. If a god is omnipotent and has no needs then nothing is necessary.

-----

I'm not sure if you grabbed the import of ...

Apparently not and I still don't. You stated that it boils down to desire to be separate from god, but if predation occurs to those that don't desire to be separate from god, (as it does), then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god. It's really straightforward.

predation is kind of the default position of not being socialized around god

Who made it the default position?

so when we come to this world

Who created this world with its default positions?

this world is simply geared up

Who created it geared up this way?

[lightgigantic]

Snakelord

I'm not sure if you grabbed the import of ...
”
Apparently not and I still don't. You stated that it boils down to desire to be separate from god, but if predation occurs to those that don't desire to be separate from god, (as it does), then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god. It's really straightforward.
maybe you can clarify in exactly what way predation curtails someone on the spiritual platform

“
predation is kind of the default position of not being socialized around god
”
Who made it the default position?

“
so when we come to this world
”
Who created this world with its default positions?

“
this world is simply geared up
”
Who created it geared up this way?
god provides a range of environments/states of being - we gravitate to those one's we have the proclivity for.

Kind of like suppose there is a bowl of stool, a bowl of dry bamboo and a bowl of vegetable soup. If these were placed before a hog, a human and a termite. Suppose they were hungry. What do you think would be the default position of such a scenario?

[Orleander]

You know, I asked this same question once. Why didn't God just make a universe where there was no need for food. Or even make this one but we get our energy from the sun-light. .....

Maybe God did but it was boring, so he made this one. A lap dog is nice, but its more exciting to have a bunch of fighting pit bulls.

When you live forever I would think stirring the pot every once in a while by tossing in a zealot has to make it more exciting.

[SnakeLord]

maybe you can clarify in exactly what way predation curtails someone on the spiritual platform

Maybe you can clarify how saying "it boils down to a desire to be separate from god" includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god. If it includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god - but something else. Whenever you're ready.

god provides a range of environments/states of being

So god created predation.

Now, my question: Why?

[lightgigantic]

Maybe you can clarify how saying "it boils down to a desire to be separate from god" includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god. If it includes those that don't have a desire to be separate from god then it can't boil down to a desire to be separate from god - but something else. Whenever you're ready.
I'm not aware how predation does hamper those who don't have a desire to be separate from god ... so whenever you're ready .... :shrug:



So god created predation.

Now, my question: Why?
as mentioned earlier, .... in short, when you group a community of envious entities together, the net result is predation amongst themselves, the swapping of roles between the exploited and the exploiter - this world is simply geared up to give facility to this proclivity .... (as opposed to this world cultivating the proclivity ..... kind of like its obvious that the construction of jails doesn't cultivate the criminal propensity, even though they are commonly full of criminals)

[swarm]

Time to kill something.

[Adstar]

Adstar

1. Am I to understand that when you say "sabotaged" you mean something other than god designed and created predation or that predation just *poofed* itself into existence?

2. 'Evil' must have existed before the obtaining of knowledge of it. Whom created 'evil'?

I guess it first happened when satan became proud and sought to be raised to be the equal of God. I guess evil is like Cold, Cold is nothing in itself, all it is, is a lack of heat. You don't need a designer to design Cold all you need is matter to be removed from a source of Heat, sure enough over time heat dissipates and cold develops on its own. So is evil the turning away towards something other than Good.



When you realise something is broken or, to use your words, "twisted" is there a valid reason you can think of to leave it broken for millennia upon millennia, (and we need to take into account your christian belief that 1 day to us is 1000 years to this god), if you have the ability and desire to fix it?

You miss out on the entirety of the verse that reveals time differential between God and the universe:

2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

What this is revealing is that Gods time is not related to us in any measurable way because to God 1 day is as thousand years and also 1000 years is as day to Him. He is outside time. And also. Each and every individual only has to experience the current state of Universal existence for 1 lifetime.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Jan Ardena]

SnakeLord,

It goes all the way down to eyeballs, wings and blood clotting - it would be intellectually dishonest at best to stop short when it comes to sharp teeth, claws, toxins, and every other aspect of life that the IDist would have no choice but to consider equally fine tuned and designed. Come now, a snake can't just magically develop a poison that doesn't harm itself but always kills its prey. No sir.

We believe that bodies are designed, that was never under dispute, and due to material nature, they act in certain ways, which include predation.
Begining, and end, are part of nature, you seem to think that it is evil, when in fact it is natural.

Take the spider wasp as a good example. It comes equipped with the ability to knock out, (but not kill), a spider. While knocked out the wasp drags it to a secure place and lays its eggs inside the spider, (something it couldn't do if it couldn't knock out the spider). And interestingly the insides of the spider provide just what the spider wasp larvae need to survive on.

I consider it extremely dishonest and bad mannered to go about declaring design and stopping just at the moment the 'bad' stuff turns up - at which stage you either declare that as just *poofing* itself into existence or that it has always existed, (without much in the way of clairification).


Why is it bad stuff?
And where did I say nature just poofs into existence?

Sorry, can you put this in a more detailed way? (god therefore doesn't "create" but just re-shapes that which already exists? etc etc) Just as detailed as you can get it. Thanks in advance.

I suggest you read up on the law of conservation.
Our bodies are created (come into being) through nature. A good example of this is in the bible where God created Adam. He created the man out of nature, then breathed life into his nostril [spirit].

It only takes a god, (with declared attributes), into account. If a god is omnipotent and has no needs then nothing is necessary.

I didn't say God has needs, and therefore requires necessity.
Living beings have needs due to their association with material nature.

jan.