View Full Version : Muslim Women Dress Code?
shorty_37
10-07-08, 05:30 PM
Ok I would like to be enlightened about the Muslim dress code for women.
I have seen a lot of women coming to the school dressed in head to toe black only showing their eyes . Is this what they call a burqa ?
Does it have to be all black? because some of them use a patterned material for the head part. I saw a woman today with a black and white checkered head scarf and the rest all in black.
What is the difference between a head scarf that shows the face, compared to one that completely covers the face? Does it have to do with religion? or from what regions they come from? :shrug:
What kind of shoes should be worn? Does it matter? I see a lot of them in wearing running shoes like this one woman today with NIKE AIRS... Frankly it looks absolutely ridiculous.
ElectricFetus
10-07-08, 05:42 PM
I don't think there is a universal Muslim women dress code, two of my fellow lab mates are Muslim, one is completely modern in her dress code. Another one wears a Hijab, usually very flamboyantly colored and decorated hijabs at that.
I agree. I see no point in drawing attention like that. A Muslim womans dress code is whatever she chooses it to be. From this in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.hamsaweb.org/crime/images/2/girls2.jpg
to this in Iran:
http://ivmp.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/tehran2.jpg
to this in India:
http://www.wallpapercollection.co.uk/wallpapers/photos/tennis/samia_mirza/sania_mirza_1b.jpg
shorty_37
10-07-08, 05:48 PM
A Muslim womans dress code is whatever she chooses it to be.
So a woman that is covered from head to toe only showing her eyes, could show her face the next day? :shrug: Or do they stick to one particular way of dressing.
Its whatever they culturally consider as normal. I remember one Bedouin woman asking me why in the west, where it is cold, woman want to be naked like poor tribals. :D
shorty_37
10-07-08, 05:53 PM
Well here in Canada we wonder how the Indians can wear only flip flops in the winter.
ElectricFetus
10-07-08, 05:57 PM
I think it cultural norms, but I don't know, lets see
Turkish Graduate student = Completely Modern
Malaysian Graduate student = Flamboyant Hajab
but two sample does not make a survey, next would be to try to find surveys and compare of women in predominantly Muslim countries. Another effector could be Muslim in non-muslim dominated countries may be more lacks on average in dress code, or maybe it only coverts over with 2nd-3rd generation immigrants.
shorty_37
10-07-08, 06:12 PM
I have seen some of the daughters with the women with only the eyes showing. Their daughters wear the black head scarf but not over the face. Do they only start covering the face at a certain age?
ElectricFetus
10-07-08, 06:47 PM
I have seen some of the daughters with the women with only the eyes showing. Their daughters wear the black head scarf but not over the face. Do they only start covering the face at a certain age?
Yes and No depending on place and culture.
nova900
10-07-08, 07:00 PM
I have seen some of the daughters with the women with only the eyes showing. Their daughters wear the black head scarf but not over the face. Do they only start covering the face at a certain age?
Heard on the news this morn on the way to work that a Saudi cleric has called for a burqa that covers everything except for one eye..reason is that he feels some women are using makeup on their eyes and this is offensive.I guess only one eye showing,even with makeup would be preferable.
Some say this is strictly cultural but it really seems like a extreme religous interpretation of the Quaran as opposed to those who take a liberal interpretation.Like many of the women I worked with a few yrs ago that were from Iran..they seemed much more liberal in their dress code and said they had come to the west to escape the extreme religous b/s in Iran.
I have seen some of the daughters with the women with only the eyes showing. Their daughters wear the black head scarf but not over the face. Do they only start covering the face at a certain age?
I have seen Saudi women in Mumbai without niqab, so I guess it pretty much depends on the individual. There are some families in India where no one wears any face covering or burqa then one girl in the family will adopt it for personal reasons, this is also something increasingly common in western countries where women are wearing the hijab to defy what they see as ridiculing of Muslims. I would have done it too, but my family has yet to recover from the last time I wore it.
I love how Sam portrays it as if it was all the women's idea to dress like Sand People from Star Wars...Ha!
"It's whatever she wants it to be!"
Yeah, except when she walks outside showing some elbow and gets stoned to death for it. Or raped and told by the courts she had it coming.
I've lived in Saudi Arabia, only women who have lived outside of it are comfortable without niqab. The Saudi women are offended if you ask them to take it off. One of them told me, if I am so liberal, I should take off my shirt! :D
Uh please, I've been places in the US where I am the only one [apart from little kids] wearing a two piece bikini. I've never seen such prudes!
Yeah, except when she walks outside showing some elbow and gets stoned to death for it. Or raped and told by the courts she had it coming.
Can you tell me who was the last woman stoned for showing elbow? The rape thing is not very unusual. I've read of a case in Australia? where a man who raped an 11 year old was let off because the judge decided she was wearing "provocative clothing" and had it coming
The muttawas only have their way because the people don't like to go against the king [it is a dictatorship]. Sorta like Americans have no idea how to close down the torture camps their government operates.
shaman_
10-07-08, 09:09 PM
The rape thing is not very unusual. I've read of a case in Australia? where a man who raped an 11 year old was let off because the judge decided she was wearing "provocative clothing" and had it coming
What? Provide me with a link for this story please.
If that happened here the judge and the rapist would be lynched.
Oh alright, it was in the UK.
Judge Hall said: "It is an absolute crime because she was only 10.
"In my experience this has been the most difficult sentencing exercise I have ever had to decide on. The circumstances in this case are exceptional.
"It is quite clear she is a very disturbed child and a very needy child and she is a sexually precocious child. She liked to dress provocatively.
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/1494590.judge_claims_paedophile_victim_dressed_pro vocatively/
ElectricFetus
10-07-08, 09:39 PM
Wow, what a nut job, oh will if one western judge says it so then it must be a universal truth in the west! So I'm going to go out and rape a women just because I like how she dressed, and if anyone has a problem with it, its her fault. Rrrrrrrrrriiight, and mean while in secularized countries women at least think they have the freedom to dress how ever they want and not be blamed as the victim, a status equal to men.
shaman_
10-07-08, 09:41 PM
.. and he wasn't let off either Sam.
He was "given concurrent two-year and 18-month sentences, but could will be free in months after spending eight months in jail on remand."
That is discraceful anyway. Castrate him.... and the judge.
Wow, what a nut job, oh will if one western judge says it so then it must be a universal truth in the west! .
Isn't that the standard that you all applied for the Saudi case?:rolleyes:
And yeah, Saudi men cover up too.
http://people.smu.edu/ashleyp/men.jpg[/url]
shaman_
10-07-08, 09:45 PM
He's already out.
Well surely some local vigilantes could take care of it.
Medicine*Woman
10-07-08, 10:59 PM
.. and he wasn't let off either Sam.
He was "given concurrent two-year and 18-month sentences, but could will be free in months after spending eight months in jail on remand."
That is discraceful anyway. Castrate him... and the judge.
*************
M*W: From my experience in the surgery sub-specialty of urology, castration doesn't prevent an erection. The perversion is in the brain.
shaman_
10-07-08, 11:04 PM
Fair enough. My comments were partly facetious and somewhat off topic. Short sentences for such a crime fire me up.
There is now a more relevant thread on that subject.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=86341
ElectricFetus
10-07-08, 11:11 PM
Isn't that the standard that you all applied for the Saudi case?:rolleyes:
And yeah, Saudi men cover up too.
http://people.smu.edu/ashleyp/men.jpg[/url]
What do the majoriy of Saudi's do, do they blame the victim? The Dress code of Saudi men is far FAR more lax then for saudi women.
Here is something interesting i thought of: When people exhale carbon dioxide comes out. If the nose and mouth are covered you also breath the carbon dioxide back in. Think about that!
BAM - http://www.springerlink.com/content/k07m184314867282/
ElectricFetus
10-07-08, 11:33 PM
Here is something interesting i thought of: When people exhale carbon dioxide comes out. If the nose and mouth are covered you also breath the carbon dioxide back in. Think about that!
So you hypoventilate? I was thinking under an abaya women are forced to breath their own farts.
OK but i am serious. The reason i ask is because someone told me that wearing a respirator all the time is no good iether for this very reason.
What do the majoriy of Saudi's do, do they blame the victim? .
Saudis are as pluralistic as any people. Don't forget, the lawyer who defended her and got her plight on the international arena was also Saudi.
The Dress code of Saudi men is far FAR more lax then for saudi women
It is? You've seen it? Most Saudi women wear a gown and an abaya. Both are light and cut to facilitate easy movement. The darkness of the abaya protects you from the glare of the sun, which is incredibly harsh and unforgiving. If you don't cover your face with an abaya, you'll wear dark glasses and burn your skin anyway.
The men wear the thobe, which is the white gown you see on the outside. They also wear the tagiyah, a tight skull cap that is supposed to keep their hair covered so its not exposed. Then they have a thick heavy black cord [which is pretty heavy, if slapped across the face with it, you'd probably fall unconscious] and a scarf that covers their head. The cord is wound and fixed over the scarf. Its weight and tight fit ensures that inspite of the skull cap, it will not shift or move. This is essential because when out of doors, most Saudis in the desert will wrap the scarf around their face, leaving only the eyes uncovered, using the black cord to keep it fixed in position. When there is a sandstorm, though, women are more effectively covered from sand going in eyes, ears, nostrils, in between teeth, into neck, etc, as they can roll the abaya over themselves completely. The men wear an additional jacket like robe to cover themselves. Besides, men are not allowed to have their thighs and penis visible. So they wear underpants and trousers under the robe.
The dress code is strictly followed by the men as well as the women, even in cities.
So you hypoventilate? I was thinking under an abaya women are forced to breath their own farts.
A traditional abaya is made up of three pieces. There is the gown which buttons up to the neck, like the male thobe. The scarf that is pinned to the head with scarf pins and the nose piece which is tied under the scarf and around the head, over the ears like a surgical mask. The nose piece has several layers to facililate how much cover you want and one layer flips back over the head and under the tie backs to keep it fixed in position. There are several variations of these. Wearing a nose piece is like wearing a bra or a panty. Its uncomfortable till you get used to it.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 12:16 AM
[QUOTE=S.A.M.;2039416]Saudis are as pluralistic as any people. Don't forget, the lawyer who defended her and got her plight on the international arena was also Saudi.[QUOTE]
Sure they are, but I'm asking for trends here, not individuals.
There is still fewer restrictions for Saudi men than for women in clothing alone, and Saudi men can at the very least SHOW THEIR FACES IN PUBLIC!
So? In western society men can show their boobs in public. Does this mean women are oppressed?
I forgot, they also wear a vest with sleeves under the thobe. A Saudi man would rather be struck dead than expose any part of his covered body to the public. Its an extreme shift in attitude for Saudis to accept that people expose themselves without a sense of shame or a loss of self respect.
Which is why they are the most offended at Abu Ghraib, more than the Iraqis, most probably.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 12:26 AM
So? In western society men can show their boobs in public. Does this mean women are oppressed?
Not showing your face is a little more critical than your boobs, we smile, frown, and have eyebrows for a reason critical to daily social interaction, how a women suppose to compete with a man when she's just an amorphous black blob?
Which western countries? Because in some western countries women are allowed to go topless in situations where men are too.
Based on what standards? Compared to naked tribes in Africa, you are prudes.
This is what westerners look like to traditional Saudis:
Its puzzling to them why people want to live like that, when they can afford to dress themselves.
They don't see it as emancipation.
http://www.nakedafrica.net/img/foto/800/Nazi.muzi.kmene.Surma.jpg
But you dress like a Westerner yourself.........
how a women suppose to compete with a man when she's just an amorphous black blob?
.
Women are paid equally as men there. They get an equal number of educational scholarships from the government. And men take you very seriously indeed when you are covered properly. No distractions, you see. :p
But you dress like a Westerner yourself.........
I dress to please myself too. I dress Indian, Arab, American, depending where I am. Saudi women also dress western, they shop mostly in Europe. They just do not expose their dress in public. When visiting or with family and friends there is quite a fashion ensemble.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 12:39 AM
Based on what standards? Compared to naked tribes in Africa, you are prudes.
This is what westerners look like to traditional Saudis:
Its puzzling to them why people want to live like that, when they can afford to dress themselves.
They don't see it as emancipation.
http://www.nakedafrica.net/img/foto/800/Nazi.muzi.kmene.Surma.jpg
I don't care what the saudi's see it as, what that have to do with their women being oppressed?
I dress to please myself too.
EXACTLY.
You consider their women oppressed they consider your women oppressed.
Who is right?
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 12:50 AM
Women are paid equally as men there. They get an equal number of educational scholarships from the government. And men take you very seriously indeed when you are covered properly. No distractions, you see. :p
Pay equally, I don't know about that, but they represent 70% of the college students yet only 5% of the workforce! Certainly men find it far easier to get hired and certainly treat women very seriously in the "put down that diploma and get back in the kitchen, bitch!" Department.
Most middle class Saudi women are traditional in outlook and are extremely rich [according to Islamic law, Muslim women have sole ownership of their property]. Also, like most Saudi men, they are, unless exposed to a great deal of other society, not inclined to work long hours. The regimented life is not palatable to them. They are essentially desert people.
Most men would probably love it for their women to work and share the expenses. But as men have to share their income but women don't, they leave it up to the women. I used to work with Saudi nurses and it was a pain to ensure they came to work. They enjoyed the work, but lacked the inclination to do it as a chore. Unlike western society, there is no prejudice against working women and male chauvinism is practically zero in the workplace.
yeah well that is the difference. If your incredibly rich who care what you have to wear. If your poor that full head to toe covering is just another burden.
Even those Bedouin women who are not rich don't care. Many were employed at the hospital as khademas. They would remove the robe when indoors, but they never removed the scarf and face covering. It would be like working naked to them. Same for the patients. In the hospital, they slept with the face covering on.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:05 AM
Most middle class Saudi women are traditional in outlook and are extremely rich [according to Islamic law, Muslim women have sole ownership of their property]. Also, like most Saudi men, they are, unless exposed to a great deal of other society, not inclined to work long hours. The regimented life is not palatable to them. They are essentially desert people.
Yeah and according to Islamic law black dogs should be killed, what your point? Of course their traditional in outlook, if I was raised in a society that told me I could neither drive, walking in public without escort or even show my face, I would come to rationalize it as a good thing: "I don't need to work, I don't need independents, if my husband bets me it my fault, I'm just a girl, tehehe." Even rich women work, women like humans in general seek fulfillment in life.
Even those Bedouin women who are not rich don't care.
How do you know? Yeah, in sand storms maybe but:
A) You dont wear it yourself
B) You dont want someone to force you to wear one
C) You agree with forcing others to wear them.
:confused:
Its all relative and I realised it only one day, when a Bedouin woman who was cleaning up a patient turned around and told me [I think she was quite fed up with my lectures]: you're so liberated, so modern. So, take off your shirt and do your job. Its only boobs, everyone has seen them, go ahead, lets see you do it.
I think till that point, I did not understand what she meant, but she was a wise old coot.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:12 AM
The issue is not if they want to wear it, it is if they have the right decide!
Like I said, its all relative, lets see you go to work naked tomorrow. Tell me how it went. :)
How do you know? Yeah, in sand storms maybe but:
A) You dont wear it yourself
B) You dont want someone to force you to wear one
C) You agree with forcing others to wear them.
:confused:
I had three very expensive very stylish abayas for the duration that I worked in Saudi Arabia, I used it [abaya] for my travels. No one ever forced me to cover my face, but I did it anyway, I wanted to experience the way they lived. I never felt oppressed, it's quite liberating not to have to worry about your appearance. At work I wore Indian clothes similar to those worn by the Iranian woman in my first post in this thread, a salwar kameez, my standard dress in India. No one ever said anything to me about my dress. I wore a lab coat over my clothes in the kitchen and a head scarf, but I would have to do that in India too, its standard practice in an institutional kitchen. I did not cover my face at work or while shopping locally [I wanted to take advantage of all the people who knew me. :D] For all other occasions, travel etc, I dressed in full Arab clothing, bought from Jeddah or Riyadh, I kept only one skirt set and gave away everything else before I left.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:22 AM
Like I said, its all relative, lets see you go to work naked tomorrow. Tell me how it went. :)
There are limits to personal freedom, I can't walk naked in public by law, I can't take a shit on the sidewalk by law... unless I was in amsterdam. Even so relativity does not change the nature of equal rights or how many rights are available to you, a Saudi women have far less rights and choices available to her than a Saudi man, Saudis in general have far less rights available to them than I most secular countries.
No one ever forced me to cover my face
Someone would have if you had not actually covered your face. You could say "oh I went into the women only segregated section, no one forced me" is equal to saying "I did not go into the men only segregated section to see if I woudl be forced out"
There are limits to personal freedom, I can't walk naked in public by law, I can't take a shit on the sidewalk by law... unless I was in amsterdam.
Now you sound like an oppressed woman. All these laws preventing you from freedom. Shouldn't you be campaigning to be on the same level as Amsterdam? Or Africa? All those women in Amsterdam and Africa are so lucky to be able to walk around naked. Doesn't it make you feel like your society is so dipshit for restricting all these desirable freedoms from you? Imagine! If you were in Amsterdam, you could go to work naked and no one would care!
I had three very expensive very stylish abayas for the duration that I worked in Saudi Arabia, I used it [abaya] for my travels. No one ever forced me to cover my face, but I did it anyway, I wanted to experience the way they lived.
Why\how would they force you to do something you were already doing?
Do women over there go into restaurants and eat?
Of course. Their eating places are not like the ones you see in other places. They don't give you a table, they give you a room [with carpet, pillows, hookah, a bathroom and a washstand]. There are western style eating places and fast food sandwich stalls but Arabs like to lie down and take their time, so most people prefer the room style restaurant.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:31 AM
Now you sound like an oppressed woman. All these laws preventing you from freedom. Shouldn't you be campaigning to be on the same level as Amsterdam? Or Africa?
I do actually! Civil right, Equal Rights, Working standards, etc did not happen because people said, "Oh well we are not a free as other nations but we got some things going for us"
Now you sound like an oppressed woman. All these laws preventing you from freedom. Shouldn't you be campaigning to be on the same level as Amsterdam? Or Africa? All those women in Amsterdam and Africa are so lucky to be able to walk around naked. Doesn't it make you feel like your society is so dipshit for restricting all these desirable freedoms from you? Imagine! If you were in Amsterdam, you could go to work naked and no one would care!
You describing my greatest dreams! Walking around naked smoking a joint, fuck I could die happy!!!
Of course. Their eating places are not like the ones you see in other places. They don't give you a table, they give you a room [with carpet, pillows, hookah, a bathroom and a washstand]. There are western style eating places and fast food sandwich stalls but Arabs like to lie down and take their time, so most people prefer the room style restaurant.
You forgot to mention they are segregated.
Good, let me know how your campaign goes when you go to work naked tomorrow.
Of course. Their eating places are not like the ones you see in other places. They don't give you a table, they give you a room [with carpet, pillows, hookah, a bathroom and a washstand]. There are western style eating places and fast food sandwich stalls but Arabs like to lie down and take their time, so most people prefer the room style restaurant.
WOW, sounds interesting.
You describing my greatest dreams! Walking around naked smoking a joint, fuck I could die happy!!!
Wow, thats must be what they call progress.:p
You forgot to mention they are segregated.
I don't like to remove my bra in public. They don't like to remove their nosepiece in public. If you come across people you know you can sit with them. I sat with my driver all the time.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:37 AM
Good, let me know how your campaign goes when you go to work naked tomorrow.
Wait you got the order mix up, I need to legalize it first.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:40 AM
Wow, thats must be what they call progress.:p
Dam straight! I'm glad we agree.
I don't like to remove my bra in public. They don't like to remove their nosepiece in public. If you come across people you know you can sit with them. I sat with my driver all the time.
Its not a matter of like, its a matter of CAN YOU! If your caught siting with a man that not your relative in Saudi Arabia you could get arrested. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece)
WOW, sounds interesting.
It is. It was quite strange the first time. I was very suspicious of the "perverted" Arabs and our driver chatted non stop for 3 hours on our trip to the city. Then he pulled over into what looked like a house. Me and one other girl were his passengers. Both of us had dire visions of being raped and dismembered and thrown into the desert. Ah, the prejudice!
He was such a nice guy, he took us to an Afghani restaurant. Got a room for us, told us to lie down as we must be tired from the drive, left his mobile number in case we needed him. He went to the steward, got food and drink for us. Bukhari rice and chicken, enough for 6 people at least. We were so ashamed. We had to beg and plead so he would eat with us. And he paid for everything because we were his "guests".
Dam straight! I'm glad we agree.
Its not a matter of like, its a matter of CAN YOU! If your caught siting with a man that not your relative in Saudi Arabia you could get arrested. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3321637.ece)
Can you? I bet if you try to walk into the lab naked tomorrow, you'll get arrested. :D
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:48 AM
Can you? I bet if you try to walk into the lab naked tomorrow, you'll get arrested. :D
That not equivalent to being arrest for sitting next to a man. Might as well claim that not having the right to murder anyone I want thus makes it Ok for Saudi women to be impression for showing her face in public, these are not equivalent, relativity does not count, we are not talking about social norms we are talking laws!
Its relative, you could be "free" in Africa. Roam naked smoke pot whatever. Legally, no fundie restrictions on clothes and pot.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:56 AM
Its relative, you could be "free" in Africa. Roam naked smoke pot whatever. Legally, no fundie restrictions on clothes and pot.
No its not relative, We are measure standard of personal freedom, So in this case Saudi Arabia is has a much lower standards than secularized countries, certainly far less then in "The bush" of africa, but then there no government control at all in the bush. Saudi women are more restricted than saudi men, by law, this is sexist and oppressive, nothing relative about that.
shorty_37
10-08-08, 08:15 AM
There is a woman I know (Portuguese) that needed daycare for her 2 girls after school.
Everyone who provides home daycare around here at the time was full, so she went with a Muslim woman. She said she didn't really want to but really had no choice at the time. They lasted 2 days there. Apparently this woman also watched a few boys. There was also one other little girl there.
This woman had different rules for the boys and girls. The boys were allowed to run around and play but she wanted the girls to just stay seated, and they were not allowed to play with the boys. This is the rule that really pissed the mom off. When the girls got home they told her they weren't allowed to sit on the couch when they watched TV. The boys sat on the couch and she told the girls they HAD to sit on the floor.
She took the girls out of her care, immediately after that. This is not the first story I have heard like this either. There are so many ppl around here that will NOT send there
kids to an Indian sitter, they rather try and rearrange their schedules or find other arrangements.
shorty_37
10-08-08, 08:22 AM
Sam you are trying to make it sound like these woman can pick and choose how they want to dress, the choice is totally up to them. . You sound like they are as free as me who can pick and choose to wear anything I want each day. I was under the impression that if they did not follow certain dress codes they would suffer consequences.
As I mentioned above, it seems to me that girls and women are treated like crap compared to boys/ men.
As far as women's rights in Canada, they can go topless just as men can if they wish. They passed a law many yrs ago allowing them the same option.
No its not relative, We are measure standard of personal freedom
Yup, in Africa, there is no government, no taxes, no legal hassles. Personal freedom is yours for the taking. :D
Sam you are trying to make it sound like these woman can pick and choose how they want to dress, the choice is totally up to them. . You sound like they are as free as me who can pick and choose to wear anything I want each day. I was under the impression that if they did not follow certain dress codes they would suffer consequences.
As I mentioned above, it seems to me that girls and women are treated like crap compared to boys/ men.
As far as women's rights in Canada, they can go topless just as men can if they wish. They passed a law many yrs ago allowing them the same option.
Its their society and these are their beliefs. So, do you go topless?
I think its a different cultural mindset. I was talking to this white guy who is married to a hispanic woman and he told me that he often had problems coming to terms with cultural differences. When the womans [large] family came over, all the women would congregate in the kitchen and the men would sit together in the living room. I did not find it odd at all, this is the custom in most Asian families. When I visited with my HIndu friends or Catholic friends, the father or brother or husbands or sons may pop in and say hi, but it was not necessary. They rarely sat with us and its not like we're uneducated, my friends are pilots, scientists and economists who are all settled in different parts of the globe now. Its just culture.
My own family was different because my parents are both from different backgrounds, brought up in poor households where propriety is not so much of an issue [survival being more important]. But in "well brought up" families, there is a "way" for people to interact socially that is considered permissible. I have also seen this in Mediterranean families. In Arab households, this is common in public gatherings. But in private gatherings at home they mix together since everyone knows one another. I've been to Arab homes for dinners and they call everyone in to greet you and sit around and treat you like a curiosity. :p
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 08:28 AM
Yup, in Africa, there is no government, no taxes, no legal hassles. Personal freedom is yours for the taking. :D
I rather have progress laws than none at all.
Its their society and these are their beliefs. So, do you go topless?
We are not comparing beliefs we are comparing freedoms.
I rather have progress laws than none at all.
We are not comparing beliefs we are comparing freedoms.
Freedoms and beliefs are interlinked. I think India is more free than the US in many ways. We enjoy our beliefs, live life between the burqa and "nakidity" and are not tied down by shallow mindless lifestyles like I have seen in the west. We could lose ALL our money and it would not deter us a bit. All we lack is economic development, which is a residue of the British exploitation and has become less of an issue the more generations removed we are from colonialism. The damage to the Indian identity is surely but slowly getting thrown off and we are reinventing ourselves in the modern world.
The Saudis have no such issues. They were never colonised. They have lived with social changes within their society only and except for a brief foray 1400 years ago, which lasted barely a hundred years [notwithstanding its impact on the beliefs of a billion and a half people and the language and culture of the entire middle east] have never been anything but nomads and traders. This continued static lifestyle has been the driving force in their self enforced isolationism. They don't care for change very much.
After the Saud takeover, they accepted the Saud family as their king [about 100 years ago] but until the discovery of oil in the 1920s, there had been almost no change in their society for over 1200 years. The loss of their trade routes first to the Persians and then to the Turks further reinforced this isolation. I think this is something that is not recognised or even realised by people on the outside. The oil dramatically changed them from a nomadic society to a settled one, just three generations ago. So it will be some time before they are adapted to settled living. For that track record, they have done amazing well. They have some of the best infrastructure, will soon have educational institutions that rival the US and an economic framework with a banking system that can withstand any credit crisis. Women scientists publish in international peer reviewed journals and women will in another generation or two, become a significant part of the workforce.
I think its a mistake to underestimate the Arabs. Just because they prefer the desert life, does not mean they are inept.
shorty_37
10-08-08, 08:51 AM
Its their society and these are their beliefs. So, do you go topless?
It doesn't really matter if I do or don't. The point is women can choose to go topless if they so wish. They have the same freedom as the men do. Not all men choose to go topless either, but either sex can if they choose to do so.
Like I said, shallow mindless lifestyles. The Arabs will easily surpass you in another century.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2236/2084068798_1b7277cb82.jpg?v=0
Or decide its all crap and go back to the desert.
joepistole
10-08-08, 09:19 AM
Personally, I think clothes on women are a waste of material and money. I much prefer women in their natural state, as God made them. Don't you think that God might be a little upset with us covering up his greatest work of art?
Try living in a nudist camp. You'll soon change your mind. :)
There is a woman I know (Portuguese) that needed daycare for her 2 girls after school.
Everyone who provides home daycare around here at the time was full, so she went with a Muslim woman. She said she didn't really want to but really had no choice at the time. They lasted 2 days there. Apparently this woman also watched a few boys. There was also one other little girl there.
This woman had different rules for the boys and girls. The boys were allowed to run around and play but she wanted the girls to just stay seated, and they were not allowed to play with the boys. This is the rule that really pissed the mom off. When the girls got home they told her they weren't allowed to sit on the couch when they watched TV. The boys sat on the couch and she told the girls they HAD to sit on the floor.
She took the girls out of her care, immediately after that. This is not the first story I have heard like this either. There are so many ppl around here that will NOT send there
kids to an Indian sitter, they rather try and rearrange their schedules or find other arrangements.
Missed this post. So this is an Indian Muslim Canadian woman who segregates the children? The Indian sitters segregate their children? From which part of India? Seems highly unusual, I haven't seen it in Indian Muslims
http://www.zawaj.com/weddingways/indian_lifeisbigger/038.jpg
joepistole
10-08-08, 09:21 AM
Let nothing get between man and the boobies I always say!
shorty_37
10-08-08, 09:27 AM
Missed this post. So this is an Indian Muslim Canadian woman who segregates the children? The Indian sitters segregate their children? From which part of India?
Honestly I don't know the specific background. I tend to compile them all into one, Indians, Pakistan, Muslim....all pretty much the same to me. I just know some of the horror stories of ppl that have sent their children to home daycares run by "Indians".
I have no idea where they came up with these strange ideas, but the mother was not going to put up with it.
Maybe you could explain why it is ok for boys to run around and play but not girls?
Why would the girls not be allowed to play with the boys? At school they are together.
Why would girls be told to sit on the floor while the boys could sit on the couch. Btw there was room on the couch, but they just weren't allowed to sit there.
You'll have to tell me where they are from, I haven't seen this even in Arabs.
http://java.nationalgeographic.com/studentatlas/clickup/images/arabs.jpg
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 11:00 AM
Freedoms and beliefs are only interlinked in how much freedom of belief you have, if your neighbor wants to walk around naked, does he have the freedom to in act that belief?
What your saying with relativity is that it does not matter how much freedom is allocated, its all relative and based on personal custom so no morality can be placed on it: If women are oppressed in Saudi Arabia we can't judge them on it its their custom. So if slaver is legal somewhere, what ever its their custom! Or if Palestine is oppressed it Israel custom, who are we to interfere?
You're simply saying that you don't see the similarity in having cultural norms that are enforced by law in both societies. I'm sure there are women who want to show their face in Saudi Arabia, just as there are women who want to be able to go naked in Chicago. But if by and large the majority in society disagree with the concept, the laws will stand. No matter what you personally think about it.
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 12:11 PM
You're simply saying that you don't see the similarity in having cultural norms that are enforced by law in both societies. I'm sure there are women who want to show their face in Saudi Arabia, just as there are women who want to be able to go naked in Chicago. But if by and large the majority in society disagree with the concept, the laws will stand. No matter what you personally think about it.
So if the majority of the society agree that slavery is OK, then who are we to judge them? If the majority of Saudis think oppressing women is OK, can't touch them, so if the majority of Israelis think oppressing Palestine is OK, hey it their culture!
Only if the majority of the people do not feel oppressed. Occupiers do not count, the people do not have the ability to decide under occupation. :)
Or did you miss that part completely?
I'm sure there are women who want to show their face in Saudi Arabia, just as there are women who want to be able to go naked in Chicago. But if by and large the majority in society disagree with the concept, the laws will stand. No matter what you personally think about it.
How is being allowed to show your face in public the same as walking around naked?
Its what is considered normal or abnormal in any society
I dont think so. There are health and safety reasons for not walking around naked.
So also in the desert, there are health and safety reasons for covering up.
Women in Rajasthan
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/755958-md.jpg
shorty_37
10-08-08, 01:29 PM
I see them on a daily basis when I go over and pick up my son from school. There isn't any health factors here as to why their whole faces are covered. They seem to be multiplying because there were not so many of them around last yr.
Did I ever tell you that when my youngest one was about 3 we saw a woman dressed up like that on the street. It was about mid October at the time. He said Mom isn't it a little early for Halloween? :D
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 01:55 PM
Only if the majority of the people do not feel oppressed. Occupiers do not count, the people do not have the ability to decide under occupation. :)
Or did you miss that part completely?
So lets say your in a slave state and your slaves have been brainwashed to think that their position is OK, that they are who they are set by god(s) and the color of their skin: does that make slavery ok? Examples like pre-communist tibet,or why not the Indian cast system as well?
So also in the desert, there are health and safety reasons for covering up.
Women in Rajasthan
http://gallery.photo.net/photo/755958-md.jpg
OK. Another picture of people in Rajasthan.
shorty_37
10-08-08, 02:03 PM
OK. Another picture of people in Africa.
Yeah John, I should bring my camera over to the school for some realistic pictures.
So lets say your in a slave state and your slaves have been brainwashed to think that their position is OK, that they are who they are set by god(s) and the color of their skin: does that make slavery ok? Examples like pre-communist tibet,or why not the Indian cast system as well?
We had 200 years of the British educating us "savages". I understand western supremacism completely.
I believe they also re-educated the Inuit, the native Americans and the Aboriginals. Their success stories have been very inspiring to us backwoods types. :rolleyes:
I see them on a daily basis when I go over and pick up my son from school. There isn't any health factors here as to why their whole faces are covered. They seem to be multiplying because there were not so many of them around last yr.
Did I ever tell you that when my youngest one was about 3 we saw a woman dressed up like that on the street. It was about mid October at the time. He said Mom isn't it a little early for Halloween? :D
Sounds like ignorance runs in the family.
Orleander
10-08-08, 07:08 PM
Was Mother Theresa oppressed? The only skin she ever showed was on her face and hands.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/95/233504601_eb1748370e.jpg?v=0
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 07:33 PM
We had 200 years of the British educating us "savages". I understand western supremacism completely.
I believe they also re-educated the Inuit, the native Americans and the Aboriginals. Their success stories have been very inspiring to us backwoods types. :rolleyes:
I'm not implying savagery, reducing sexism, racism and classicism is not western supremacism.
We had 200 years of the British educating us "savages". I understand western supremacism completely.
The British educated you?
I'm not implying savagery, reducing sexism, racism and classicism is not western supremacism.
This from the country that says to the rest of the world, do as we say, not as we do.
Its supremacism to imply that anyone who does not act, dress, talk or think like you do, needs re-educating. Believe me, it engenders nothing but contempt.
On my part, the reaction is amused contempt, you seek to educate me on a place and people that I have lived with for five years, based on your ignorance of their language, social dynamics, self-determination and culture. Really, am I supposed to even take you seriously?
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 08:28 PM
This from the country that says to the rest of the world, do as we say, not as we do.
Its supremacism to imply that anyone who does not act, dress, talk or think like you do, needs re-educating. Believe me, it engenders nothing but contempt.
Ad hominem! It does not matter who the messenger is, why can't you learn how to make a logical argument?
I'm not asking that they act, talk, think like I do, I asking for abolishment of sexism, racism and classicism, even the USA has not managed to completely abolish such things. Surely women rights activist in Saudi Arabia engender nothing but contempt for what they do.
Like I said, you are ignorant of their society, so your opinion is irrelevant
ElectricFetus
10-08-08, 08:37 PM
Like I said, you are ignorant of their society, so your opinion is irrelevant
Ad Hominem. Ignorance does not mean I'm wrong, prove I'm wrong, calling me ignorant proves nothing.
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-08-08, 09:33 PM
Strictly enforced dress codes are dehumanizing. People trying to control other people. Forcing conformism. DAMN BULLSHIT!!!!
Medicine*Woman
10-08-08, 11:58 PM
Was Mother Theresa oppressed? The only skin she ever showed was on her face and hands.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/95/233504601_eb1748370e.jpg?v=0
*************
M*W: Not since that's what she chose to do. No one forced her. She went into the convent on her own volition.
Medicine*Woman
10-09-08, 12:05 AM
I'm not implying savagery, reducing sexism, racism and classicism is not western supremacism.
*************
M*W: Wanted to point out that the word "savages" is contraction of the word "salvages." White man thought he could dress them in American garb, teach them, force christianity on them. They didn't have a choice, oh they did, the Battle of Little Big Horn aka Custer's Last Stand. Read this in Native American history.
Medicine*Woman
10-09-08, 12:07 AM
Ad Hominem. Ignorance does not mean I'm wrong, prove I'm wrong, calling me ignorant proves nothing.
*************
M*W: Only in her mind.
S.A.M.: So? In western society men can show their boobs in public. Does this mean women are oppressed?
Yes. Our burkas cover smaller forbidden zones, but they are there for men and women in the west as well.
One of the more interesting aspects of Burningman is the fully clothing optional aspect. People can wear as much or as little as they please.
It will be nice when we finally dump these needless religious taboos.
Yeah, let me know when nakidity is haute couture
Ad Hominem. Ignorance does not mean I'm wrong, prove I'm wrong, calling me ignorant proves nothing.
I already proved it, several times over. You seem to be under an assumption that the rest of the world wants to lead your life, roam naked and smoke pot. Even in India, it would be an uproarious joke, forget Saudi Arabia.
S.A.M.: No one ever forced me to cover my face.
I think you never put that to the test.
"Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote."
h ttp://ww w.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/19/saudi.rape.victim/index.html
Jobless Saudi Women: Problem Grows Worse
Saudi women are 51 percent of the population but barely 7 percent of the work force. ... When a Man Divorces a Woman [she is often reduced to begging]
h ttp://ww w.artarabia.com/artman/publish/article_122.shtml
In Saudi Arabia, a view from behind the veil [draws parallels to the treatment of black in the US south during segregation]
h ttp://ww w.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-women6jun06,0,5491632,full.story?coll=la-home-center
There is absolutely no doubt saudi women are second class citizens.
S.A.M. Try living in a nudist camp. You'll soon change your mind.
Nude doesn't bother me in the least. Nudist camp, nudist beach, nudist whatever nor does being nude bother me and I don't care that not every one looks like a movie star.
You seem to have some weird expectations about nudity.
I don't. Not when I am at the Kumbh mela for instance.
However, I don't see it catching on at home. With my parents, employers, at conferences, etc.
Orleander: Was Mother Theresa oppressed?
Without a doubt.
S.A.M.: No one ever forced me to cover my face.
I think you never put that to the test.
"Under Saudi law, women are subject to numerous restrictions, including a strict dress code, a prohibition against driving and a requirement that they get a man's permission to travel or have surgery. Women are also not allowed to testify in court unless it is about a private matter that was not observed by a man, and they are not allowed to vote."
.
I did, I went shopping with my face open. The laws apply only to Saudis, face covering is not required for foreigners. In Mecca, especially, most women are not Saudis and do not cover their face.
The rest of the laws are for their society, not for the world. Unless they start bombing people for having different laws, I don't see a problem. When they are ready to change they will.
S.A.M. However, I don't see it catching on at home. With my parents, employers, at conferences, etc.
So what? This isn't about popularity. I doubt you see many bikinis or speedos at conferences, but you could see them. But if those people took them off they would be arrested. That is the burka line in the US. Anal floss = ok. No anal floss = crime.
Where this nonsense doesn't matter people seem fully able to get along with their lives. They manage to dress or undress according to their needs. The legal or religious requirement to cover certain parts of your body is unneeded and does nothing to further the cause of humanity and those places where such laws abound seem to also be places abounding in other human rights abuses.
Which is not to say places such as the US can't be hot beds of human rights abuse as well.
S.A.M. I did, I went shopping with my face open. The laws apply only to Saudis,
In other words, no you didn't put it to the test. Instead you enjoy special protected status as a foreigner.
But you could easily test other restrictions on women and see if you get stoned to death or a touch of the lash. The restrictions are frequently enforced by extra legal religious "courts." Offend the right person and get back with me about how that worked for you.
The five years I was in a city, the only arrests were for drug use or distribution, or corruption. No one was stoned or lashed. Three foreigners were beheaded for drug distribution. There was only one shooting incident. The most frequent cause of death was RTA. One Saudi was arrested for abusing his foreign maid.
Michael
10-09-08, 06:18 AM
it's more than cultural. i know a Japanese woman who was moronic enough to convert to Islam - she wears a full covered burka around Sydney, complete with gloves.
Why does she do it? Maybe it's because she feels showing any amount of skin, including her face is just too much.. almost naked really, and wearing the tent brings respect to her .... but the real reason is more likely to be because she was brainwashed. Sad too because she refuses to speak with her parents and lives to serve her husband, one of those nutty Imam's from Egypt. By the Gods I hope he is sent back there. Her kids will never know anything about Japan as the husband doesn't want her to even speak Japanese to them. They have to learn Arabic and to read the Qur'an. They will never even meet their Japanese grandparents.
What do you think SAM? Was she brainwashed? Seem like it to me and everyone who knew her.
Oh, I forgot, you can't think. Here I'll insert your answer *something about America and the West*
New converts are always more fanatic. I avoid them myself.
But like myself in Saudi Arabia, she may be trying to experience the life for herself.
Michael
10-09-08, 06:23 AM
The five years I was in a city, the only arrests were for drug use or distribution, or corruption. No one was stoned or lashed. Three foreigners were beheaded for drug distribution. There was only one shooting incident. The most frequent cause of death was RTA. One Saudi was arrested for abusing his foreign maid.
As I understand it, North Korea is a very very very safe place too. If you live by the draconian laws. You know, like worship Dear Leader (pbuh).
I lived in Saudi Arabia. I know its a safe place to stay and bring up kids. People immigrate there to work and even though they will never get citizenship, stay there for 15-20 years. And I'm not talking about Muslims. You can get pretty lulled by the security and lifestyle there, after that going back home or moving elsewhere is a rude surprise.
Michael
10-09-08, 06:26 AM
New converts are always more fanatic. I avoid them myself.
But like myself in Saudi Arabia, she may be trying to experience the life for herself.SAM, she's brainwashed. The fun sprite enjoyable and naive person she was has lost her identity, has a new name, and he been sucked into a black hole of Islam where she is completely living her life for Allah.
That's called brainwashed by me and probably pious by you.
We'll, call it a difference in definition.
Its her choice. Maybe her "enjoyable" life was not bringing her happiness.
Michael
10-09-08, 06:31 AM
or maybe, and more likely, she was a naive Japanese girl who was brainwashed.
Yeah, only stupid people want to embrace Islam. :p
Michael
10-09-08, 06:41 AM
Anyway, you can tell that to her parents, friends and family, who she now no longer wants to speak with or let met their grandchildren.
Yup, she just happens to agree that her children to NOT learn Japanese her mother tongue and this just so happens to coincide with her husband's wishes - which is that they only speak Arabic and English.
Actually, everything she wants now, just happens to coincide with what her husband, and hence Allah, wishes for her. So her walking around in a tent and never speaking her mother tongue to her children is because Its her choice. Maybe her "enjoyable" life was not bringing her happiness.
It's called brainwashing SAM, oh, for you it's called choice and piousness.
There is nothing more sad than a parent that can not speak to their children in their mother tongue. Such a parent is usually looked upon by their children as slightly daft, because they can never truly speak with great depth about subject important and from their culture.
Oh, but I forgot, Its her choice. Maybe her "enjoyable" life was not bringing her happiness.
I forgot, weren't you the one who blamed prostitutes as being spoil little bitches? It's not that they've been taken advantage of .... nope, must be Its their choice. Maybe their "enjoyable" life was not bringing them happiness.
I can safely say that if it were not for meeting this Imam and being brainwashed this girl would have finished Uni and had a completely normal life. She probably would have married a normal person who respected her culture and had a relationship with her parents. but not this ass hole Imam.
I've seen it happen in reverse. Girls from conservative families who discover "liberation" and break up from their families and/or husbands and children because they find it too restrictive.
Are they brainwashed?
I forgot, weren't you the one who blamed prostitutes as being spoil little bitches? It's not that they've been taken advantage of .... nope, must be Its their choice. Maybe their "enjoyable" life was not bringing them happiness.
Is that what I said? Thats very interesting. You consider pole dancers as prostitutes? Did I say ALL pole dancers?
Michael
10-09-08, 06:45 AM
and remember, this man isn't just a normal muslim, like you, he's an Imam. He drank the cool aid lives his life for Xenu and sees flying saucers and spit moon and and the other bull shit.
So she's doing it for him. What a novel concept. A woman dressing to please her husband.
Michael
10-09-08, 06:49 AM
I've seen it happen in reverse. Girls from conservative families who discover "liberation" and break up from their families and/or husbands and children because they find it too restrictive.
Are they brainwashed?I'm sure if they met a religious fanatic who took away their identity, gave them a new name, convinced to live for Xenu and never to speak the own God damn language and never see their parents - yeah, I'd all that brainwashed... oh, but for you that's pious I forgot.
Is that what I said? Thats very interesting. You consider pole dancers as prostitutes?nope
If they wanted to, can you give me any reason why they shouldn't?
You sound like an old fashioned parent. :D
Michael
10-09-08, 06:56 AM
So she's doing it for him. What a novel concept. A woman dressing to please her husband.oh gee a women who will never speak to own kids in her own language because her psycho husband doesn't want her too. What a novel concept. Oh gee a women who will never speak to her parents again. What a novel concept. Oh gee a women who now has a new Arabic name and sole existence is to live for Allah the Sky Daddy. How novel.
Islam was the worst thing that happened to this woman and her family, her Imam husband is no better than a pimp. You'd see that, but much like Scientologist, you've drank the cool-aid.
Anyone who suddenly starts wearing a spaceship hat for worry of Xenu is called brainwashed, oh, I mean pious for you.
Michael
10-09-08, 07:00 AM
Look SAM, go wear a burka and we'll call it a day.
The Japanese girl wears a burka and lives for allah because she's brainwashed.
I'm sure you'd blame the school girls who burned to death for not being covered if they were around to blame.
This from the man who thinks a woman that takes off her clothes to pole dance is a prostitute.
A woman has a right to decide to wear a veil if she wants to. Whether its me or someone else. If she doesn't want to wear it, she has that right too, just like homosexuals have a right to be elected President of the United States. But unlike the latter, the former requires a Saudi woman to campaign for a change in social law.
shorty_37
10-09-08, 07:49 AM
Sounds like ignorance runs in the family.
No actually a wicked sense of humor does.
Michael
10-09-08, 08:31 AM
S.A.M.,
please, this is a girl who was normal, met a psycho Imam and was brainwashed into Islam. Now she wears a tent, changed her name to an Arabic one, stopped all contact with her friends and family and is not allowed to speak Japanese to her own children.
That's called BRAINWASHED sam. Geesh, what's so hard to get?
This is the way it is with explaining brainwashing to the brainwashed.
One of the first thing that cult leaders do to brainwash their sheep is to change their name. Notice that this happens in Islam - often Muslim converts are encouraged to take an Arabic name. Pure brainwashing. Notice what happens when a person is forced to give up their own language. Again, pure brainwashing tactics. Brainwashed people are always kept away from their families. OH, they think they are doing it willingly, but usually at this stage they are so deeply brainwashed they wouldn't know their head from their arse.
anyway... as I said before, tell Xenu, Zenu, MeMu, Allah, Palla, Balla, whoever we all said hello...
So if a Saudi girl meets a Western man, dumps her garb and wears Western clothing, she is brainwashed?
changed her name to an Arabic one, stopped all contact with her friends and family and is not allowed to speak Japanese to her own children.
Yeah right! :rolleyes:
A change in name is [surprise!!!] what most women do after marriage.
How do you know she stopped contact with her family and not vice versa?
As for not being allowed to speak Japanese to her kids, how do you know?
No actually a wicked sense of humor does.
So what do they say about your teeth? Dracula lives?
OilIsMastery
10-09-08, 09:10 AM
As S.A.M. correctly (for once) observes, there is no Muslim dress code. The irony is that the mummification costume was actually started by nuns.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images%20(101-200)/101_NunsStudying.jpg
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 11:13 AM
Yeah, let me know when nakidity is haute couture
I already proved it, several times over. You seem to be under an assumption that the rest of the world wants to lead your life, roam naked and smoke pot. Even in India, it would be an uproarious joke, forget Saudi Arabia.
I never made such an assumption, don't confuse my dreams with what I think humanity wants, I also dream of the dead humans are extinct, do I think mankind wants that? You have not proven that Saudi dress code is not sexist, you have only made attacks against me.
I never made such an assumption, don't confuse my dreams with what I think humanity wants, I also dream of the dead humans are extinct, do I think mankind wants that? You have not proven that Saudi dress code is not sexist, you have only made attacks against me.
What do you think happens to men who are not dressed properly in Saudi Arabia? The system applies equally to both, but Israelis are not interested in translating equally. Same as a streaking woman is treated like a streaking man in the US. Or not?
Here is an interesting vignette from a modern Saudi woman:
There were a few pamphlets on the table about Haj and Umrah and one of the ladies reached for one pamphlet and started reading it aloud. Apparently, they were going to Makkah for Umrah and wanted to know as much about the rituals of Umrah as possible. I could not help but listen to their conversation, with great interest at first and with a little bewilderment later. I guessed that the woman who was reading was the mother of the other two. She was eager to inform her daughters about the important rulings for women performing the Haj and Umrah. She stressed that one of the essential guidelines mentioned in the pamphlet was the need for women to cover their faces completely during Umrah and not to wear the niqab that shows their eyes through slits.
WHEN I heard that, I could not keep quiet. I interrupted to say that this was not true and it is a clear distortion of all the religious teachings that I was taught and raised with and I indicated that I was born in Makkah and my uncle was one of Saudi Arabia’s prominent judges and a scholar who taught in the Holy Mosque. As a little girl I used to accompany him in many Umrahs. I know for a fact that women are forbidden to cover their faces during Haj and Umrah. However, the mother pointed out that the author of one of the pamphlets too was a prominent religious scholar in Saudi Arabia. I urged them not to believe those who follow their own rulings and disregard the four Muslim schools of thought. The mother had no comment; however the girls answered me in a very friendly manner and said that people in the Makkah region have different beliefs and a lifestyle that does not compel them to cover their faces. I argued that I respect their culture and their way of life; however, when it comes to religious teachings we should abide by Islamic rulings and not allow customs and traditions to disregard what is in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. I continued to argue my point with one of the ladies who was soft-spoken and a charming conversationalist. However, I was taken aback when she told me that she was a graduate of microbiology from the US. I could not believe that a woman with her educational background and her exposure to more advanced societies could cling to such rigid notions.
I felt really sad and frustrated with these women who, no matter how educated, are still being brainwashed by hard-liners who want them to remain faceless and shrouded in black. I had dreams of a new generation of educated Saudi women who would lead the Muslim women and debate issues that promote peace and global prosperity, rather than indulge in superficial rulings that serve no purpose. We need moderate Muslim scholars to encourage Saudi women to contribute positively to the Saudi culture and to the image of the global Muslim society. This negative image of women who do not care to assert their identity has harmed Islam the world over. Our scholars must give their blessings to allow Saudi professional women to be part of the international community and appear in the proper hijab and be distinguished in adopting fashions that include contemporary — yet conservative — styles that represent the modest Muslim woman. It is unfortunate that there are many individuals in our society who criticize women who wear abayas that are more elegant. The official code of dress continues to be a gruesome figure that should be unattractive to look at. How sad! In my book and according to the majority of Muslim women in the world, this is totally un-Islamic. There are so many interpretations of what is appropriate for Muslim women to wear; however, being faceless and shrouded in black should not be an option.
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=114363&d=16&m=9&y=2008
Many Muslims today hold it against us for spreading a rigid interpretation of Islam and influencing innocent and ignorant Muslims who are under the impression that Saudi scholars could never say anything that is wrong. It is time we addressed these issues before we do more harm to Muslims and to our Islamic faith.
This is what a Saudi woman is.
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 11:36 AM
[QUOTE=S.A.M.;2041125]What do you think happens to men who are not dressed properly in Saudi Arabia? The system applies equally to both, but Israelis are not interested in translating equally. Same as a streaking woman is treated like a streaking man in the US. Or not?[QUOTE]
Yes, but men in saudi arabia can at least show their faces! If I required all women to wear lead boots and men have to wear leather boots, is if fair because they both have to follow the law even if the womens boots are far more cumbersome?
Even your own link proves otherwise as the author clearly does not agree with Saudi dress code for women.
Yes, but men in saudi arabia can at least show their faces! If I required all women to wear lead boots and men have to wear leather boots, is if fair because they both have to follow the law even if the womens boots are far more cumbersome?
Even your own link proves otherwise as the author clearly does not agree with Saudi dress code for women.
Thats not what she said, she said she wants the scholars to allow them to be more expressive in their dress, she still said "conservative". You seem obsessed on the showing your face category. I have met many women, not only in Saudi Arabia but also in India who do not want to show their faces.
Here is another article by the same author:
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=52784&d=12&m=10&y=2004
There is no doubt that the status of women in Saudi Arabia has been controversial for a long time. After Sept. 11, the controversy intensified since Saudi Arabia was the main focus of blame for the attacks. Saudi women were portrayed in the US media as being abused and disrespected by an extremist religious ideology.
While we Saudis admit that the status of women in our country has not been what we would have desired, we cannot agree with the idea that Saudi women are underprivileged and oppressed. The Saudi mother is a highly respected member of the family. According to a saying by the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), “Heaven is under the feet of mothers.”
Having said that, there are certainly instances of abused women in Saudi Arabia — just as there are all over the world. At the same time, our extended family values and our Muslim heritage protect women from many abuses such as homelessness, prostitution and drug addictions. Now I would like to concentrate on what is being currently done in the Kingdom to improve the status of women. The right of women to own and run their own businesses is guaranteed in Islam; our religion assures women sole control of their inheritance and grants them property rights. Today’s new revised business laws will allow women to obtain commercial licenses which is likely to encourage businesswomen to invest their money and assets in industrial and other projects.
You can read the entire article and tell me what is strikingly absent
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 11:55 AM
Thats not what she said, she said she wants the scholars to allow them to be more expressive in their dress, she still said "conservative". You seem obsessed on the showing your face category. I have met many women, not only in Saudi Arabia but also in India who do not want to show their faces.
If they don't want to show there faces that their decision, I'm saying it wrong to force it on others, they should have the right to decide, what about all the saudi women that do want to show their faces, are they all nudist and streakers? Should their calls for women rights be dropped because they don't want to conform to "conservatives" dress code?
If they don't want to show there faces that their decision, I'm saying it wrong to force it on others, they should have the right to decide, what about all the saudi women that do want to show their faces, are they all nudist and streakers? Should their calls for women rights be dropped because they don't want to conform to "conservatives" dress code?
They have to do what you have to do in order to roam naked and smoke pot. Wait for social change. Or campaign for it. Until the majority agrees, thats not likely to happen. But if you actually speak to Saudi women, you'd be surprised how few have that on their list, and how far down the list it is.
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 12:32 PM
But if you actually speak to Saudi women, you'd be surprised how few have that on their list, and how far down the list it is.
Yeah getting the right to drive and work and etc are surely bigger goals! And lest not forget how many of them are brainwash into thinking their state of subjugation is ok.
Yeah getting the right to drive and work and etc are surely bigger goals! And lest not forget how many of them are brainwash into thinking their state of subjugation is ok.
Since you don't even know any Saudi women, I'd say you're the one who is brainwashed. FYI, just go and say that to a Saudi woman and then run for cover!:D
Medicine*Woman
10-09-08, 02:23 PM
Look SAM, go wear a burka and we'll call it a day.
The Japanese girl wears a burka and lives for allah because she's brainwashed.
I'm sure you'd blame the school girls who burned to death for not being covered if they were around to blame.
*************
M*W: Reminds me of those girls and women in the FLDS in their long pastel prairie dresses and their heavy long Johns.
Another case of those who have drank the Kool-Aid of oppression.
Medicine*Woman
10-09-08, 02:26 PM
As S.A.M. correctly (for once) observes, there is no Muslim dress code. The irony is that the mummification costume was actually started by nuns.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/Images%20(101-200)/101_NunsStudying.jpg
*************
M*W: Your post reminded me of that long black dress with the head covering that I think S.A.M. posted. I always thought they looked like nuns but they were, I assume, Muslims. I always thought that's why the nuns accepted that as a required dress.
The origin of the face veil was in Byzantine, it was considered a mark of social status. Prostitutes and cleaning women were forbidden to wear it.
The Byzantines are believed to have invented the face-veil for women,[3] though some sources ascribe its invention to the Persians. Among the Byzantines, it was worn only in the street by the upper classes. This was later adopted in much of the Islamic world. In general women outside court circles went well wrapped up in public, and were relatively restricted in their movements outside the house; they are rarely depicted in art.[
I think by 1423, when Byzantine fell to the Muslims, the veil had been adopted by much of the upper class Islamic world as a sign of status [who wants to have his wife, sister or mother considered as a prostitute or cleaning woman?] It is unknown in the Arabs before that time.
In the Saudis, they still have this notion, if you expose your face, you are "lower" class
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 03:49 PM
Since you don't even know any Saudi women, I'd say you're the one who is brainwashed. FYI, just go and say that to a Saudi woman and then run for cover!:D
It doesn't matter if I know any Saudi women or not, I didn't know any slave either yet when I here accounts of some slaves saying they enjoy being slaves I've got to wonder. Sure, If I meet a Saudi women that thinks women should be subordinate to men I'll tell her she brainwash, what is she going to do hit a man?
Saudi women are used to being treated like royalty. She won't hit you, thats too much trouble. She'll have you arrested. :D
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 04:25 PM
Saudi women are used to being treated like royalty. She won't hit you, thats too much trouble. She'll have you arrested. :D
Where? Cause like hell I would be in Saudi Arabia.
Where? Cause like hell I would be in Saudi Arabia.
Coward. :D
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 05:09 PM
Coward. :D
Sure I am, whats your point?
Michael
10-09-08, 07:24 PM
So if a Saudi girl meets a Western man, dumps her garb and wears Western clothing, she is brainwashed?IF she stopped speaking to her family, didn't a allow them to see their children, if her husband convinced her that she should never speak Arabic, that her children should never learn anything about her culture, that she should break ties with all friends and family members, never speak to anyone outside of his house - when she's allowed to go out, changer her entire name to a new one AND all of this is on the back of Scientology, her new beleif, and she dedicates her life to Xenu.
YES, you're God Damn right - she's been brainwashed.
Sounds like a lot of fantasy. I know Filipino girls who are married to Saudis and they have no such issues.
shorty_37
10-09-08, 07:33 PM
Sounds like a lot of fantasy. I know Filipino girls who are married to Saudis and they have no such issues.
Sam you seem to know everyone from every race that comes up on here. You also know all these ppl that are in the weirdest interracial marriages. You seem to know a shit load of ppl. If this is really the case, why do you spend most of your life on an internet forum? :rolleyes: You are the one that sounds like you talk a lot of fantasy.
Michael
10-09-08, 07:33 PM
Saudi women are used to being treated like royalty. That might be true for some women, and for other's they are treated like cattle.
How do you describe the actions of the Saudi male citizens who forced the school girls to remain inside the burning building and be roasted live - their skin peeled off in agonizingly pain. The Muslim men would rather they hear the girls screams of agony to glorify Allah over allowing them to being seen in public.
Would you say they are brainwashed? Or perhaps you'd like to blame the girls for not wearing their tent? Or I know, maybe you think that's their choice. Probably something the girls wanted. To end their short lives for the Gloory of Xenu, or Allah or Mohammad or Rob Hubbard or whomever.
That might be true for some women, and for other's they are treated like cattle.
How do you describe the actions of the Saudi male citizens who forced the school girls to remain inside the burning building and be roasted live - their skin peeled off in agonizingly pain. The Muslim men would rather they hear the girls screams of agony to glorify Allah over allowing them to being seen in public.
Would you say they are brainwashed? Or perhaps you'd like to blame the girls for not wearing their tent? Or I know, maybe you think that's their choice. Probably something the girls wanted. To end their short lives for the Gloory of Xenu, or Allah or Mohammad or Rob Hubbard or whomever.
Those men are abusing their power. Thats not unusual. Americans are doing it in Gitmo too. I hear they sodomise kids in front of their parents in Abu Ghraib and the video is unwatchable due to the chilling screams of the children. So should we generalise this to all Americans?
nova900
10-09-08, 07:41 PM
Those men are abusing their power. Thats not unusual. Americans are doing it in Gitmo too. I hear they sodomise kids in front of their parents in Abu Ghraib and the video is unwatchable due to the chilling screams of the children. So should we generalise this to all Americans?
Where those men held accountable for abusing their power?
Michael
10-09-08, 07:43 PM
You know, I remember talking to a Xian in the USA once. We were talking about dinosaurs, and I basically said, look it's a fact dinosaurs did not live with humans and they existed millions of years ago. In short the earth is not 6000 years old. Her response was that the bones were the work of Satan to trick mankind into questioning their faith in God.
in short, she drank from the same cool-aid bowl that you are drinking from.
Really, at that point, it's sort of pointless.
Tell Xenu or Allah or Mo or Ronny or whatever whomever we all said hello.
M
Orleander
10-09-08, 07:44 PM
I'm sure if they met a religious fanatic who took away their identity, gave them a new name, convinced to live for Xenu and never to speak the own God damn language and never see their parents - yeah, I'd all that brainwashed... oh, but for you that's pious I forgot.
nope
It happens in every religion. Warren Jeffs, Waco, Jim Jones, etc. Would you hate every Christian because of them?
Orleander
10-09-08, 07:45 PM
You know, I remember talking to a Xian in the USA once. We were talking about dinosaurs, and I basically said, look it's a fact dinosaurs did not live with humans and they existed millions of years ago. In short the earth is not 6000 years old. Her response was that the bones were the work of Satan to trick mankind into questioning their faith in God......
M
LOL, yeah my son went to school with a girl who wrote a report that all teh dinosaurs drowned during Noah's Flood. :rolleyes:
And I didn't get a bit pissed off about it.
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 07:46 PM
Sam you seem to know everyone from every race that comes up on here. You also know all these ppl that are in the weirdest interracial marriages. You seem to know a shit load of ppl. If this is really the case, why do you spend most of your life on an internet forum? :rolleyes: You are the one that sounds like you talk a lot of fantasy.
I think you just hit SAM so deep her ovaries shot out of her nose! SAM believes that knowing one example personally is evidence of a trend, thus SAM knows everyone and anyone who can be used to "prove" her self right.
Where those men held accountable for abusing their power?
No idea, they are the Ministry for Prevention of Vice and like American troops enjoy a hallowed position in their society. Most Saudis are utterly fed up of them. I think every one of their actions should be subject to scrutiny and talked about worldwide, so that they are kicked out.
Sam you seem to know everyone from every race that comes up on here. You also know all these ppl that are in the weirdest interracial marriages. You seem to know a shit load of ppl. If this is really the case, why do you spend most of your life on an internet forum? :rolleyes: You are the one that sounds like you talk a lot of fantasy.
I've only been here two years. I've travelled more than 25 years. And most weekends now, I take off!:p
Orleander
10-09-08, 07:50 PM
When my Dad's family came over here they all shared a house and called it an extended family. On my Mom's side, I had 2 aunts and uncles that shared a house with my grandparents. Its amazing how people forget that. I think we have gotten to used to living by ourselves and not sharing a house with grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins.
I guess I've never made it my business to sit and count the people going in and out of the houses on my street.
shorty_37
10-09-08, 07:52 PM
I've only been here two years. I've travelled more than 25 years. And most weekends now, I take off!:p
Yeah sure whatever you say... :rolleyes: Don't try and convince me because personally I think most of these examples and "friends" "people" you know are all in your head.
When my Dad's family came over here they all shared a house and called it an extended family. On my Mom's side, I had 2 aunts and uncles that shared a house with my grandparents. Its amazing how people forget that. I think we have gotten to used to living by ourselves and not sharing a house with grandparents and aunts and uncles and cousins.
I guess I've never made it my business to sit and count the people going in and out of the houses on my street.
In my childhood, we lived in an extended family for about 10 years. I have 15 aunts and uncles on my parents side and innumerable first second and third cousins. They are spread out across India, Pakistan, Middle East, Canada, USA and Australia. Probably other places too. Then we have my parents friends. Also spread around. Then my school mates, my college mates, my area mates, my Saudi mates, my earlier job mates, my current job and school mates. Thats a lot of people. And these are just the first tier. :D
And I haven't even mentioned my siblings, their in-laws and friends
Yeah sure whatever you say... :rolleyes: Don't try and convince me because personally I think most of these examples and "friends" "people" you know are all in your head.
Who cares what you think?:confused:
Orleander
10-09-08, 07:57 PM
I have biker neighbors. The wife goes braless, wears a skimpy tank and short shorts because that's what her husband finds attractive and she likes feeling sexy for him. She also sits on the bitch seat of her husband's bike.
If you tell her she's oppressed she will knock your teeth out.
ElectricFetus
10-09-08, 08:02 PM
Yeah sure whatever you say... :rolleyes: Don't try and convince me because personally I think most of these examples and "friends" "people" you know are all in your head.
I second that.
You can check up on anything I say. I always ask the people involved. Thats why I asked shorty to tell me where her "Indians" were from. I'm still waiting on her response.
Orleander
10-09-08, 08:16 PM
You can check up on anything I say. I always ask the people involved. Thats why I asked shorty to tell me where her "Indians" were from. I'm still waiting on her response.
LOL, do you actually think what's her face has ever talked to them? Do you think she has ever taken cookies over, welcoming them to the neighborhood? Do you think she would ever let her kids play with them? Not that they would because they KNOW how nasty they are. After all, mommy says so.
If she tells me where they are, I can probably track them down. Indians have an extensive network
shorty_37
10-09-08, 08:22 PM
You can check up on anything I say. I always ask the people involved. Thats why I asked shorty to tell me where her "Indians" were from. I'm still waiting on her response.
Like I said, I have no idea. I never claimed to know any of them personally.
I just see them everyday at the school. They could be from all different regions but I just group them into one.
You on the otherhand have "friends" or "people" you know personally for almost every topic we discuss here. I do however find it facinating that you know so many people with the oddest interracial marriages, and they have all worked out fabulously. Did you attend all of their weddings too? Were you ever the bridesmaid? you know always the bridesmaid never the bride.
Probably because I am attracted to or attract the same type of people. Probably because since my parents are both unconventional, we have always had unconventional friends. I went out with a Morroccan, my sisters have mixed marriages and I like smart people who embrace diversity so I always get together with people like that. Plus I used to hang out every day before I joined my PhD program.
Were you ever the bridesmaid? you know always the bridesmaid never the bride.
What is it with you and sex? Are you the kind of woman who will marry any man rather than live alone?
shorty_37
10-09-08, 08:27 PM
LOL, do you actually think what's her face has ever talked to them? Do you think she has ever taken cookies over, welcoming them to the neighborhood? Do you think she would ever let her kids play with them? Not that they would because they KNOW how nasty they are. After all, mommy says so.
Still using the childish What's her face I see. :rolleyes:
Taken cookies over? LMAO we don't live in hickville, nobody does that out here.
Let my kids play with them? You have read enough of my posts to know that my kids have a lot of Indian and Black friends. You really should grow up if you want to have a discussion on an adult forum. Do you only play head games here on the forum or with your family too?
Didn't you move from Vancouver? Or are you on holiday?
shorty_37
10-09-08, 08:28 PM
What is it with you and sex? Are you the kind of woman who will marry any man rather than live alone?
Where did I mention anything about sex? It seems like you are the one who reads sex into everything.
shorty_37
10-09-08, 08:29 PM
Didn't you move from Vancouver? Or are you on holiday?
WTH are you talking about? I live in Ontario and always have.
Oh I confused you with someone else. Truthie maybe.
Where did I mention anything about sex? It seems like you are the one who reads sex into everything.
You are the one who asked about weddings. Have you ever lived alone?
shorty_37
10-09-08, 08:36 PM
Oh I confused you with someone else. Truthie maybe.
You are the one who asked about weddings. Have you ever lived alone?
I didn't know mentioning bridesmaids or weddings translated to Sex :rolleyes:
Yes I have lived alone, what's your point?
Orleander
10-09-08, 08:41 PM
Speaking of Muslim dress codes....
I have a co-worker who's husband is from Morocco. She became a Muslim before they married. She wears the same clothes I do. Even when she goes to Morocco. I think she has more rules about her food than her clothing. Jewish rules.
You don't sound like someone who can live alone. You bring every conversation around to men.
Speaking of Muslim dress codes....
I have a co-worker who's husband is from Morocco. She became a Muslim before they married. She wears the same clothes I do. Even when she goes to Morocco. I think she has more rules about her food than her clothing. Jewish rules.
Morroccans are all wannabe Italians. :rolleyes:
Orleander
10-09-08, 08:44 PM
LOL. I'm gonna tell her that.
Her husband looks like a skinny Hurley from Lost. That hair!
Oh, and he does the housework, which surprised me. Its not a male dominated do what I say house. He says he was raised to respect a woman, the mother of his children.
Yeah, they are great cooks, my ex used to make a great harira.
shorty_37
10-09-08, 08:47 PM
You sound like someone who lives alone but wishes she didn't. You have over 46,000 posts to strangers because it gives you ppl to talk to so you don't feel so alone. Because if you had all these friends you are always talking about you would think you would be out socializing with them.
Yeah, they are great cooks, my ex used to make a great harira.
And house trained.:D
You sound like someone who lives alone but wishes she didn't. You have over 46,000 posts to strangers because it gives you ppl to talk to so you don't feel so alone. Because if you had all these friends you are always talking about you would think you would be out socializing with them.
As usual you are clueless. :D
But its okay, you're a good cook, good in bed, do the wifey stuff around the house and appear to have normal children. You've done alright. I tried it, it bored me to tears. :puke:
Orleander
10-09-08, 08:49 PM
Do Moroccans dress more like Saudis or Indians?
Do Moroccans dress more like Saudis or Indians?
My ex was into boots, jeans and leather jackets. So I guess he dressed European. He wore Moroccan gowns at home. And yeah, that hair!!!:D
S.A.M. Saudi women are used to being treated like royalty.
Billshit.
Make a visit to the kingdom. Come back and tell me exactly what it is that Saudi women do.
Changeling
10-09-08, 10:26 PM
"Make a visit to the kingdom. Come back and tell me exactly what it is that Saudi women do."
I did. They beg in the street.
Michael
10-09-08, 10:32 PM
Those men are abusing their power. Thats not unusual. Americans are doing it in Gitmo too. I hear they sodomise kids in front of their parents in Abu Ghraib and the video is unwatchable due to the chilling screams of the children. So should we generalise this to all Americans?If the men did that to glory Jesus as part of American theocracy. Yup.
Medicine*Woman
10-09-08, 11:07 PM
I have biker neighbors. The wife goes braless, wears a skimpy tank and short shorts because that's what her husband finds attractive and she likes feeling sexy for him. She also sits on the bitch seat of her husband's bike.
If you tell her she's oppressed she will knock your teeth out.
*************
M*W: Can you arrange a meeting for them?
shorty_37
10-10-08, 08:18 AM
"Make a visit to the kingdom. Come back and tell me exactly what it is that Saudi women do."
I did. They beg in the street.
LOL.....;)
"Make a visit to the kingdom. Come back and tell me exactly what it is that Saudi women do."
I did. They beg in the street.
I thought only George Bush did that in Saudi Arabia :confused:
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