View Full Version : Kosher cell phones - when your religion makes you a cretin
Here, read for yourself:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7636021.stm
Is that cellphone kosher?
The BBC's Erica Chernofsky looks at how Israel's highly traditional Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community is tackling the challenges and opportunities of new communications technologies.
When Israeli father Avi tried to register his 6-year-old twin daughters for his local Ultra-Orthodox school this year, he was happy to sign a form saying his children do not watch television or use the internet at home.
But he was surprised to discover he had to give a "kosher cellphone number". He did not have one.
Avi lives in Har Nof, one of the main Ultra-Orthodox, or Haredi, neighbourhoods of Jerusalem.
I feel I can control myself not to use the bad features - But do I trust my children?
Avi
The community separates itself from mainstream society through its traditional religious practices and distinctive attire of black hats, coats and sidelocks for the men and long skirts and sleeves for the women.
Like most other men in his community, Avi studies the Jewish scriptures daily, keeps the Sabbath and eats only kosher food.
But he has not yet opted for the new religious adaptation to modern technology that has swept the Haredi world in Israel.
Badge of observance
The kosher cellphone looks like an ordinary cellphone, can make and receive calls, and may have a calculator and alarm clock.
But it cannot send or receive text messages, browse the internet or take photos - all activities that could potentially involve behaviour considered "immodest" among Haredis.
For example, SMS capability could lead to the unwitting receipt of mass text messages publicising secular events. It could also be used as a method of illicit communication between male and female teenagers.
And all photos of women are forbidden, as is accessing websites with content deemed inappropriate.
The phone's other defining feature is a rabbinical stamp of approval, similar to those seen on kosher food items.
All the major Israeli cellphone companies have accommodated the powerful Haredi constituency by providing kosher phones, and cheaper-than-normal packages which only connect with other Haredi numbers.
As the companies have created distinct code prefixes to accompany the kosher phone plans, the phone numbers have quickly become a badge of religious observance.
Not only do some Haredi newspapers refuse to publish ads with non-kosher phone numbers, but parents are worried their children will be blacklisted by the shadchan, or matchmaker, if their numbers are not kosher.
Banana filtered
"What do you associate with the Haredi community? You wear black trousers, a white shirt and some sort of hat, but today the things that define you have changed," says Avi.
He says he feels there is a sense that anyone who does not have a kosher phone "should be excluded from society".
"If you say you are associating yourself with us, please act according to our codes, otherwise do not call yourself Haredi and do not send your kids to our schools."
But while they have managed to adapt the cellphone to their lifestyles, Haredis have had a harder time with the internet.
Last year, an Orthodox rabbi and an Israeli technology executive established an internet service provider (ISP) called Rimon, which claims to be the only filtering service provider in Israel that offers customised surfing packages.
The company says it cuts out pornography, violence, and gambling, and then provides the user with five levels of further filtering, from the "protected" level that blocks images of women in intimate apparel to the "hermetic" level, which allows users to view only unchanging, vetted websites like encyclopaedias.
There are many things on the internet that are not appropriate for me as a Haredi woman, things I would prefer that my family and I didn't see or hear
Miriam
"If your kid puts 'banana' into Google, some of the first sites he'll get are porn," explains Chairman Moshe Weiss. "Put banana into Google on Rimon, and you get all the same sites without the porn."
One Haredi sect, the Belz, which normally forbids online access, has partially endorsed the use of Rimon, but only for those who need the internet for business purposes.
The general rule for the local Haredi community still remains no radio, no TV, no internet and no movies - though Rimon is hoping that once it starts targeting the Haredi market that will change.
For now, its 15,000 subscribers are mostly secular and modern Orthodox.
Self control
Miriam, a teacher living in Jerusalem, is one of many Haredi Jews who do not have home web access.
She expresses concern over the amount of time people devote to surfing the net, wasting time they could spend learning Torah or doing good deeds.
Her main worry, however, is over the lack of control over content.
"There are many things on the internet that are not appropriate for me as a Haredi woman, things I would prefer that my family and I didn't see or hear, like violence, pornography and inappropriate sexual relations," she says.
For Haredis, "inappropriate" means any physical contact between a man and a woman who are not married.
But Avi, who says he needs the internet for his work in the tourist industry, has unfiltered online access.
"I'm not afraid of the negative aspects because I grew up with internet and I feel I can control myself not to use the bad features," he says.
"But do I trust my children?" he wonders aloud.
"When they are old enough to use it I will definitely have to re-evaluate. I think then I might put filters on or use Rimon, or maybe then I'll even disconnect internet from the house altogether. It's just not worth the risk."
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/7636021.stm
Published: 2008/10/06 07:58:21 GMT
© BBC MMVIII
Challenger78
10-06-08, 07:49 AM
Oh... Fuck off.
Thats taking it a bit too fucking far.
They take everything about their religion very seriously (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1847347,00.html).
In Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, where the rule of law sometimes takes a back seat to the rule of God, zealots are on a campaign to stamp out behavior they consider unchaste. They hurl stones at women for such "sins" as wearing a red blouse, and attack stores selling devices that can access the Internet.
In recent weeks, self-styled "modesty patrols" have been accused of breaking into the apartment of a Jerusalem woman and beating her for allegedly consorting with men. They have torched a store that sells MP4 players, fearing devout Jews would use them to download pornography.
"These breaches of purity and modesty endanger our community," said 38-year-old Elchanan Blau, defending the bearded, black-robed zealots. "If it takes fire to get them to stop, then so be it."
Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are dismayed by the violence, but the enforcers often enjoy quiet approval from rabbis eager to protect their own reputations as guardians of the faith, community members say. And while some welcome anything that keeps secular culture out of their cloistered world, others feel terrorized, knowing that the mere perception of impropriety could ruin their lives.
-------------------------------------------------
Religious vigilantes operate in a society that has granted their community influence well beyond its numbers�partly out of a commitment to revive the great centers of Jewish scholarship destroyed in the Holocaust, but also because the Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics.
--------------------------------------------------
The unidentified, 31-year-old woman had left the ultra-Orthodox fold after getting divorced, according to the indictment filed by the Jerusalem district attorney's office. The indictment said her assailant tried to get her to leave her apartment in a haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem by gagging, beating and threatening to kill her. He was paid $2,000 for the attack, it said.
A 17-year-old who moved to Israel from New York five years ago said she was hospitalized after being attacked with pepper spray by a crowd of men outraged that she was walking down a Jerusalem street with boys.
"They can burn in hell," said the girl, who would identify herself only as Rivk
-------------------------------------------------
The state, catering to religious sensitivities, subsidizes gender-segregated bus routes that service religious neighborhoods. Ragen and several other women challenged the practice in Israel's Supreme Court after an Orthodox Canadian woman in her 50s told police she was kicked, slapped, pushed to the floor and spat upon by men for refusing to move to the back of the bus.
Another Beit Shemesh girl, who asked to be identified only as Esther, said zealots threw rocks, cursed and spat at a friend for wearing a red blouse — taboo because the color attracts attention.
Yitzhak Polack, a 50-year-old Jerusalem teacher, is one of those who deplore such behavior.
"They are stupid troublemakers who are bringing shame and disgrace on this holy community," he said.
But the rabbis are afraid to condemn them, says Yehuda Meshi-Zahav, another community member.
"They can't come out against zealots who champion modesty. Here and there they write against violence, but the militants ultimately set the tone," he said.
Stores are targeted too.
In August, a Jerusalem man was placed under house arrest on suspicion he set fire to a store in a haredi district of the city that sold MP4 players.
"It started about six months ago. They would come into the store, about 15 of them at a time, screaming, 'This store burns souls!' and they would throw merchandise on the floor and threaten customers," said 31-year-old Aaron Gold, a haredi worker at the Space electronic store.
One Friday night, just before the Sabbath was about to begin, "they smashed a window, doused the place with gasoline and lit a match," Gold said.
Now, a big sign behind the counter says, "All products sold in this store are under rabbinical supervision. By order of the rabbis, no MP4s are sold here."
Clothing stores that sell clothes regarded as provocative have been vandalized, and bleach thrown at merchandise.
Suspicion is all that's needed to spark an attack.
Girls have been expelled from school after being seen talking to boys, a punishment that ruins their marriage prospects.
"It could be very innocent; she could be talking to her brother," Ragen said. But once thrown out of school, "no one�NO ONE�will take you in," she added.
What's that word again.. ah yes.. extremists.
Any of you support Net Nanny?
Don't use it.
When my children are old enough to access the internet, I would rather not rely on a program to monitor them. I'll put it this way.. they won't be going on the internet without one of us there in the room with them watching them at all times.
But why do you ask?
Don't use it.
When my children are old enough to access the internet, I would rather not rely on a program to monitor them. I'll put it this way.. they won't be going on the internet without one of us there in the room with them watching them at all times.
Why? Don't you trust them?
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 10:42 AM
More and more brain surgeons are restricting their use of cellphones.
I wonder if they are becoming Orthodox Jewish?
Why? Don't you trust them?
Nope. Children can easily over-ride them. I'd rather supervise my children myself instead of having a computer program do it for me. Why do you ask?
Do you think Orthodox Jewish adults also need supervision just in case they stray from the fold? Don't dare to use the internet, the camera or send an SMS.. So they need to be supervised?
More and more brain surgeons are restricting their use of cellphones.
I wonder if they are becoming Orthodox Jewish?
I suspect brain surgeons are using their mobile phones less because of some evidence that they might cause brain cancer. The Orthodox Jews are not restricting the use of mobile phones. You can call and receive calls as much as you like. They just don't want people to access the internet or use the SMS function or, God forbid, take photos. In fact, anything that might access the internet is banned and if a store sells it, they will vandalise said store.
I don't see where anyone is being forced into it, do you? Frankly if my kid was surfing the net, I would appreciate a net service where porn popups were not an issue. I may even choose the service for myself. So what?
I don't see where anyone is being forced into it, do you? Frankly if my kid was surfing the net, I would appreciate a net service where porn popups were not an issue. I may even choose the service for myself. So what?
It's a personal issue. How can I put this. I wouldn't let my kids surf the net without adult supervision. Net nanny software can easily be bypassed or turned off. So no, I would not rely on it to protect them. And we'd use a browser that stopped all pop-up's, something we do now anyway.
You don't see where people might be forced into it?
Did you miss this part?
Not only do some Haredi newspapers refuse to publish ads with non-kosher phone numbers, but parents are worried their children will be blacklisted by the shadchan, or matchmaker, if their numbers are not kosher.
Could be construed as a form of force, if not blackmail.
As could threats of violence for those who do not comply or adhere to their rules.
CheskiChips
10-06-08, 07:13 PM
Oh... Fuck off.
Thats taking it a bit too fucking far.
Just because you don't take it as far as them, doesn't mean they don't have the rights to do these things. The man obviously knew he was moving into a Haredi neighborhood...and in the article I don't see complaints. Why don't you go pick on the Amish? Haredi choose which parts of technology they find useful and which ones they don't.
Did you miss this part?
Could be construed as a form of force, if not blackmail.
As could threats of violence for those who do not comply or adhere to their rules.
No I did not miss it. I don't support the violence, but I don't see why any community should not have its own rules and demand compliance for them. All societies do so, anyway. Pluralism of views is not a crime.
Suppose it said instead:
Not only do some Haredi newspapers refuse to publish ads with hard core porn but parents are worried that their children will be blacklisted if they are associated with hard core porn industries
what would your reaction be?
Asguard
10-06-08, 07:18 PM
umm SAM, there is a difference
Net alert is freely provided by the federal goverment yes, but its up to the parents wether they chose to use it or not. Actually there is another option and that is that its blocked from the provider end if the parents want it to be so that the programe cant be overriden (wether it has holes or not i dont know)
So why even assign any regulation to the parents? In close knit communities, the people are like extended families. This is missing in most of western society which is why its probably an alien concept.
Asguard
10-06-08, 07:23 PM
um because you have a right to autonomy.
For instance because bells doesnt want her kids looking up porn because of there age should that stop me as an autonomious adult from being free to do it if i see fit?
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 07:23 PM
I suspect brain surgeons are using their mobile phones less because of some evidence that they might cause brain cancer. The Orthodox Jews are not restricting the use of mobile phones. .
(I was playing and taking a shot at what I think will be the cigarrette of the next century - cell phones)
CheskiChips
10-06-08, 07:23 PM
(I was playing and taking a shot at what I think will be the cigarrette of the next century - cell phones)
I think that's a good point; when are they going to find a way to tax Cell Phones?
cosmictraveler
10-06-08, 07:24 PM
Where I grew up all of the other residents of my community were always watching us kids and many of the other kids parents were giving us advice and helping us. I don't think I grew up any different than many other kids in other areas of America where there were local communities that had such parents and others to help when they could.
um because you have a right to autonomy.
For instance because bells doesnt want her kids looking up porn because of there age should that stop me as an autonomious adult from being free to do it if i see fit?
You could always move. Or find other people who think like you. Autonomy is socially agreed upon values. You can't walk naked in Australia but in India no one will care if you do.
Asguard
10-06-08, 07:35 PM
why should i?
Autonomy should be respected unless there is a dam good reason it shouldn't. Ethics are based on autonomy, non maleficence, beneficence and justice. Autonomy comes first UNLESS a very strong case can be made for one of the others overruling it.
Futher more your assuming that because a parent doesnt want there underaged child to see porn that the parents dont watch it themselves. *Im not game enough to use bells as an example for THAT one:p* Why shouldnt they be able to as autonomious adults where sexual activity is legal, just because they want to keep it from there children who are to young to concent to sex?
So basically, its okay to enforce your beliefs on them, but not vice versa.
Asguard
10-06-08, 07:41 PM
how am i enforcing any beliefs on them SAM. How is myself watching porn effecting anyone other than me? Im not forcing them to do it
You know your arguments are starting to sound like Cazzo claiming that alowing gays to marry gives them "special rights"
Nope, I said if a community agrees on shared upon values, its valid [for them]. Are there any Haredi campaigning for the right to watch porn? Or have you decided they should have the right?
Asguard
10-06-08, 07:45 PM
Ok lets make this REALLY symple
Assult is a crime no matter what the justifcation. There for they are nothing but criminals. I sugest you ask any judge what sentance they would hand down to someone who bashed a person because of the colour of there shirt
Is this your opinion? Or again have you decided for them?
The Inuit in times of hunger, used to make small igloos wrap up their babies and leave them to die. This was how they kept alive on meager resources. Was it wrong?
You could always move. Or find other people who think like you. Autonomy is socially agreed upon values. You can't walk naked in Australia but in India no one will care if you do.
Ermm no. It is not always possible to move.
But I guess if you can't move for whatever reason, they'll move you instead.
The unidentified, 31-year-old woman had left the ultra-Orthodox fold after getting divorced, according to the indictment filed by the Jerusalem district attorney's office. The indictment said her assailant tried to get her to leave her apartment in a haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem by gagging, beating and threatening to kill her. He was paid $2,000 for the attack, it said.
No I did not miss it. I don't support the violence, but I don't see why any community should not have its own rules and demand compliance for them. All societies do so, anyway. Pluralism of views is not a crime.
You might not support the violence, but a faction in these communities are resorting to violence to maintain the rules and to demand compliance. While the majority may not agree with the violent means of the minority, they do not speak out against it. It is against the law in Israel to firebomb stores and to attack others. Yet these groups are getting away with it, even though it goes against their so called "rules".
Or are you saying that it's their rules and thus, if their rules state that violence can be used to demand compliance, so be it?
Nope, I said if a community agrees on shared upon values, its valid [for them]. Are there any Haredi campaigning for the right to watch porn? Or have you decided they should have the right?
Is it their shared values to beat, kidnap and threaten murder on those who don't comply? Do all share this value?
Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are dismayed by the violence, but the enforcers often enjoy quiet approval from rabbis eager to protect their own reputations as guardians of the faith, community members say. And while some welcome anything that keeps secular culture out of their cloistered world, others feel terrorized, knowing that the mere perception of impropriety could ruin their lives.
"There are eyes and ears all over the place, very similar to what you hear about in countries like Iran," says Israeli-American novelist Naomi Ragen, an observant Jew who has chronicled the troubles that confront some women living in the ultra-Orthodox world.
Seems not.
Aren't those actions illegal under Israeli law? So why should they be exempt from the law?
While those who choose to live in such communities have basically acknowledged that they will abide by the strict laws of their religion, it is not for others to threaten and blackmail them and then possibly commit acts of violence against them if they fail to do so of they are suspected of not doing so.
Suspicion is all that's needed to spark an attack.
Girls have been expelled from school after being seen talking to boys, a punishment that ruins their marriage prospects.
"It could be very innocent; she could be talking to her brother," Ragen said. But once thrown out of school, "no one�NO ONE�will take you in," she added.
There comes a point where the State should stop turning a blind eye and allowing violent gangs free reign because of religious or cultural freedoms. When said threats, blackmail, terror and violence lead to the point where people are fearing for their lives, reputation and businesses, something's gotta give.
Sounds like they are developing their own mutawwas. Cool. Its in the desert air I think, the tendency to get regimental in a sea of endless nothing.
I don't agree with their values, but like I said, I don't agree with many countries'/communities' values. But as long as they keep them at home i.e. do not enforce them on me, I have no objection to their having their own society.
CheskiChips
10-06-08, 08:18 PM
None of you have ever spent any time in Haredi neighborhoods before, so stop weighing your opinions like they mean something. The chances of being taken out of school is very unlikely.
Also there is no beating or kidnapping or anything that you say happens in Haredi communities...it simply doesn't exist. If you want to see beating and kidnapping in Judaism talk to the bukharians. Those same Haredim could walk 1 mile...1 block...out of their neighborhood and be in the rest of the world, they choose not to for varying different reasons. Haredi go to special schools, these special schools have strict rules...public schools exist. You have the option to go to them, all do.
You guys are making something out of nothing; I am not Haredi, nor do I ever want to be. But they live very very differently and I respect them, but you'll never see me in their neighborhood.
None of you have ever spent any time in Haredi neighborhoods before, so stop weighing your opinions like they mean something. The chances of being taken out of school is very unlikely.
Also there is no beating or kidnapping or anything that you say happens in Haredi communities...it simply doesn't exist. If you want to see beating and kidnapping in Judaism talk to the bukharians. Those same Haredim could walk 1 mile...1 block...out of their neighborhood and be in the rest of the world, they choose not to for varying different reasons. Haredi go to special schools, these special schools have strict rules...public schools exist. You have the option to go to them, all do.
You guys are making something out of nothing; I am not Haredi, nor do I ever want to be. But they live very very differently and I respect them, but you'll never see me in their neighborhood.
So you're saying that the reports of violence are false? Made up?
An Orthodox Jewish woman heckles women defying a law that they should not pray out loud. Photograph: Elizabeth Dalziel/AP
Four months ago in the middle of the night, six men dressed in wide-brimmed black hats, black coats, white shirts and black trousers burst into the Jerusalem apartment of a young Jewish woman and taught her a lesson.
Mikhail, who is reluctant to give her full name, had scandalised members of her ultra-orthodox Jewish community by leaving her husband and embracing a secular lifestyle. The men, all members of the theologically conservative Haredi branch of Judaism, tackled her to the ground, slammed her head against the floor and tied a rag around her mouth. One assailant sat on her head as the others kicked her while demanding to know the names of the men she was seeing.
They also threatened to kill her if she did not leave the neighbourhood, which contains many secular as well as religious residents. 'A woman is only OK if she has a family, kids and a husband,' said Mikhail with a sigh.
(Source) (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/21/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1?)
That never happened to her?
Highlighting what may be a growing trend in fanaticism, a 28-year-old resident of Jerusalem's Ramot neighborhood has been arrested for attacking a woman as part of his activity in the "tznius patrol" or modesty police.
Elhanan Buzaglo appeared in Jerusalem District Court on Sunday to answer charges stemming from a June 2008 home invasion in which a young woman was reportedly beaten by a group of ultra-Orthodox young men.
The woman had apparently been seen in the company of married men from the community.
Details of the investigation, which began a month and a half ago, reveal that members of the tznius patrol entered the woman's home and demanded that she move out, telling her that residents of the neighborhood had complained about her.
After the woman refused to do so, Buzaglo and two other men from the patrol allegedly attacked her. In addition, a third member of the patrol is suspected of stealing two cell phones from the woman's apartment during the fray.
Buzaglo was arrested after his fingerprints were identified inside the woman's apartment, while a number of separate complaints from other women have been made about him as well.
Ranging from verbal harassment to an incident in which Buzaglo allegedly attempted to run a girl over with a car, there are at least 10 possible charges facing him.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331191398&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
So none of this happens in Haredi communities?
Ermm ok.
According to Menachem Friedman, a sociology professor at Bar-Ilan University in Ramat Gan, Tel Aviv, the orthodox are imposing their rules more forcefully than before and the lives of the city's women are becoming more circumscribed, and sometimes more dangerous, as a result. Friedman grew up in an ultra-orthodox family and has been studying the Haredi for 49 years. He said the extreme atmosphere is tangible.
Self-appointed moral guardians, dubbed the 'modesty police' by Israel's modern secular media, roam Jerusalem's ultra-religious neighbourhoods enforcing the voluminous and ever growing list of rabbinical laws such as the recent decree banning the sale of MP4 players. About 100 Haredi women have taken to wearing scarves and veils to cover themselves much like Muslim women.
Yoel Kreus is known locally in the Mea Shearim area of the city as the 'manager of operations'. He describes himself as a 'shmira', a Hebrew word that translates as 'watcher of Israel'. 'I make sure the rabbis' decisions happen ... I help you to be a moral person,' he said.
Much of Kreus's time is spent checking out reports of illicit use of new technologies by members of the Haredi community. 'If we discover someone has a computer at home we throw the children out of school,' he said. Enforcing dictates on women's behaviour is another vital part of his brief.
He runs a library housing copies of the enormous notices pasted on the walls of Mea Shearim and other religious neighbourhoods berating women for wearing wigs instead of scarves and advertising appropriate dress on buses.
Signs warning women not to enter if they are wearing trousers, short sleeves or a skirt above the knees, hang in the neighbourhood. One is affixed outside Kreus's two-room house where he lives with his wife and 11 children. 'Every week there's a complaint about the way women dress,' said Kreus.
Extraordinarily, he admitted to slashing the tyres of women who have driven into the neighbourhood who, he said, were indecently dressed. 'There was a mess with the police,' he said. 'Now I'm trying new creative methods, not using violence. Now I make a small hole in their tyres and the air deflates slowly. I'm not destroying their car.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/21/israelandthepalestinians.middleeast1?
WTF? Is he kidding himself?
False?
Doesn't exist?
Yes. It really sounds like it does not exist (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3324025,00.html).
I think it is 'something' when people are abused, terrorised, threatened and worse, if they do not comply, even if they are not part of the community.
Sounds like they are developing their own mutawwas. Cool. Its in the desert air I think, the tendency to get regimental in a sea of endless nothing.
I don't agree with their values, but like I said, I don't agree with many countries'/communities' values. But as long as they keep them at home i.e. do not enforce them on me, I have no objection to their having their own society.
Then be thankful you don't live there. Otherwise you would be objecting severely.
The use of violence by modesty patrols in ultra-orthodox areas, however, is not a new occurrence.
Also in June, a 14-year-old girl in Betar Illit had acid spilled on her face and body, causing light burns. That incident was attributed to a similar modesty patrol in the town.
In a graver incident that took place in November 2006, Miriam Shear, an orthodox woman from Canada, was allegedly beaten on the floor of an Egged bus when she refused to give up her seat as she rode to the Western Wall.
That episode underscored recent cases of ultra-orthodox men requesting "mehadrin" or kosher bus lines in which the sexes are separated - women in back and men up front. While the bus that Shear rode on was not a mehadrin line, she was reportedly told to move to the back of the bus by an ultra-orthodox man and was spit on, kicked and punched by a group of men when she refused.
The Egged driver in that case has repeatedly denied that violence took place on his bus, but an eyewitness on board who confirmed that an unprovoked "severe beating" took place has substantiated Shear's account.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1215331191398&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Then be thankful you don't live there. Otherwise you would be objecting severely.
Maybe, maybe not. We have an equal amount of strange stuff in India, with so many different types of beliefs its not hard to cultivate an indifference to the things people say and do.
Asguard
10-06-08, 10:12 PM
sam, quick question. Do you belive in the rule of law?
In the spirit of it - most laws in India exist on paper, but unless they match what the people want, they are irrrelevant. Its why we can have a law against homosexuality, while homosexuals get married without discussion.
Asguard
10-06-08, 10:18 PM
im not talking about moral "law" (ie laws which there is a strong concensses to change), im talking about laws like murder, and assult.
Same response. We've bee through a partition, a civil war, several secessionist movements, riots, bombings since the last 20 years and have 26 states with 26 languages. We are too many people to try and make everyone conform.
Asguard
10-06-08, 10:21 PM
so if i murdered you, you would be ok with that????????????
your kidding right??????????
you wouldnt care if the cops just went "oh, a dead body, what, gun shot wound to the head? so what, just throw her on the garbage heep"
I know you like to play devils advocate but i am finding it VERY difficult to belive that this is your opinion
It happens surprisingly often in India, we're a fatalistic people. The guy responsible for the massacre of Muslims in the Gujarat riots has been voted into power thrice as governer of the state and even Muslims have voted for him. I'm not saying its good, but its better than the option I see practised by the "secular countries". Its what makes us such survivors as a people.
Asguard
10-06-08, 10:59 PM
what?
locking murders up?
HELL no its not. i dont like the justice system but its better than nothing, if someone killed my sisters, my brother, PB, basically anyone i knew i would rather see them detrained in a mental health facility but baring that i will take seeing them in jail. Im dam sure bells would say the exact same thing.
I have seen to many men bashed because they were gay, or for no reason at all. Hell one murder started a riot in sydney
It happens surprisingly often in India, we're a fatalistic people. The guy responsible for the massacre of Muslims in the Gujarat riots has been voted into power thrice as governer of the state and even Muslims have voted for him. I'm not saying its good, but its better than the option I see practised by the "secular countries". Its what makes us such survivors as a people.
:bugeye:
I'm sorry. But what?
So when an American soldier is accused of murdering an innocent civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan (as one example), or a soldier in Israel murders a child by shooting him/her because they threw a rock (another example) and they are either promoted, rewarded with compensation or not jailed, you argue that it is a criminal act and a bad thing.. which it is. But a person in India commits or "is responsible for" a massacre and is then thrice voted into power? You think it's somehow better than what we apparently practice in "secular countries"?
Ermm ok.:bugeye:
So when you protest against soldiers murdering innocent civilians, I can remind you of this post and claim that they (the soldiers) might be part of a "fatalistic society" and that it could make them "survivors as a people"? Would that be a fair enough assessment?:)
CheskiChips
10-07-08, 01:17 AM
So you're saying that the reports of violence are false? Made up?
That never happened to her?
So none of this happens in Haredi communities?
Ermm ok.
WTF? Is he kidding himself?
False?
Doesn't exist?
Yes. It really sounds like it does not exist (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3324025,00.html).
I think it is 'something' when people are abused, terrorised, threatened and worse, if they do not comply, even if they are not part of the community.
Then be thankful you don't live there. Otherwise you would be objecting severely.
Maybe; it's possible. Not all of these reports could be falsified (if any). I have heard Israeli Haredi is not like American Haredi. I've never encountered Israeli Haredi because they rarely leave their neighborhoods and they don't like talking to Litvaks (which I am, I am misnagdim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misnagdim))that much. So if it's happening it's a real blemish amongst the Jews and it's a horrible travesty that they would revert to behaving like this.
Unfortunately in Israel there's a really tough line to walk between religion and secular. Many of the religious which are completely harmless seem insane, and if you're not accustomed it's impossible to tell the difference. The government is most likely scared to infringe...the riots it would cause would be a disaster. So again; if this is all true it really brings me a lot of sadness. I also admit that it most likely is.
Maybe; it's possible. Not all of these reports could be falsified (if any). I have heard Israeli Haredi is not like American Haredi. I've never encountered Israeli Haredi because they rarely leave their neighborhoods and they don't like talking to Litvaks (which I am, I am misnagdim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misnagdim))that much. So if it's happening it's a real blemish amongst the Jews and it's a horrible travesty that they would revert to behaving like this.
Unfortunately in Israel there's a really tough line to walk between religion and secular. Many of the religious which are completely harmless seem insane, and if you're not accustomed it's impossible to tell the difference. The government is most likely scared to infringe...the riots it would cause would be a disaster. So again; if this is all true it really brings me a lot of sadness. I also admit that it most likely is.
I'll admit, I was surprised it was as bad as it was. I always knew they were very inclusive in that they had very little contact with the general outside world. But I too was shocked and dismayed that it went so far as to cause terror in some who live in these communities. That the mere suspicion could result in your children being kicked from school, as one example, is a prime example of threats and coercion. Threats of violence and violent acts is another thing that I find absolutely shocking. I had always had this mental picture that they were peaceful people. That this level of extremism had not touched them. Sadly I am mistaken.
That the Rabbi's do not condemn such acts of violence also astounds me.
I mean throwing acid on girls, beating women on buses, refusing to let women on a public bus because she's wearing jeans, using threats and intimidation as well as violence.. The Government in Israel needs to look past its fear of infringing on religious freedom when it does get that violent and it infringes on people's basic rights.
All this.. it would be a sad indictment on any society, regardless of their religious inclination.
CheskiChips
10-07-08, 02:11 AM
I'll admit, I was surprised it was as bad as it was. I always knew they were very inclusive in that they had very little contact with the general outside world. But I too was shocked and dismayed that it went so far as to cause terror in some who live in these communities. That the mere suspicion could result in your children being kicked from school, as one example, is a prime example of threats and coercion. Threats of violence and violent acts is another thing that I find absolutely shocking. I had always had this mental picture that they were peaceful people. That this level of extremism had not touched them. Sadly I am mistaken.
That the Rabbi's do not condemn such acts of violence also astounds me.
I mean throwing acid on girls, beating women on buses, refusing to let women on a public bus because she's wearing jeans, using threats and intimidation as well as violence.. The Government in Israel needs to look past its fear of infringing on religious freedom when it does get that violent and it infringes on people's basic rights.
All this.. it would be a sad indictment on any society, regardless of their religious inclination.
Well to clarify a few things for you to not lose as much respect. Haredi neighborhoods are not ran by the mainstream rabbinical council. A Hasidic foundation created in the 1500's created an Orthodox dichotomy that used to diverge much greater than it does commonly today.
The rabbis they follow live in dynasties which made no sense considering the pre-Hasidism laws, and these dynasties really laid the foundation for what much of Haredi would become. Nearly all of the great Rabbis in history with very very few exceptions the only notable the 'Maharal', were disagree-ers (Misnagdim) to the hassidic movement. Nearly all of them; and the great Rabbis today alive are not hasidic in the strict sense that these people are. They carry many of the customs of it, but they don't condone the behaviour of these exclusive communities.
In fact; it's gotten so bad with certain movements that the mainstream rabbinical councils have made it forbidden to pray with them. This actually only being laid down no less than 6 years ago. Which really just reinforces the almost forgotten laws laid down 500 years ago. Many of these Haredi's live in an adolescent state...but that's all I desire to say on the topic.
What I want to reinforce; this form of Haredi can only very very lightly be found in certain parts of NY as far as 'outside Israel' goes.
I'll admit, I was surprised it was as bad as it was.You are exactly right in everything you say. No one need respond with anything but total acceptance of your opinions and thoughts as you express them.
You are the most intelligent person in the world, probably and I think all posts should be dropped with the exception of your own so that everyone could find enlightenment from your God-like words of wisdom.
You are exactly right in everything you say. No one need respond with anything but total acceptance of your opinions and thoughts as you express them.
You are the most intelligent person in the world, probably and I think all posts should be dropped with the exception of your own so that everyone could find enlightenment from your God-like words of wisdom.
Beg yours?
What? You've taken to stalking me now?
Let me give you some advice NGM. If you have a bug up your butt about something I have said on this forum, then I'd suggest you contact me directly instead of attempting to throw threads off topic with your ranting. Or, alternatively, you can take your grievances to the administrators of this site.
Your present actions are annoying and disturbing.
:bugeye:
I'm sorry. But what?
So when an American soldier is accused of murdering an innocent civilian in Iraq or Afghanistan (as one example), or a soldier in Israel murders a child by shooting him/her because they threw a rock (another example) and they are either promoted, rewarded with compensation or not jailed, you argue that it is a criminal act and a bad thing.. which it is. But a person in India commits or "is responsible for" a massacre and is then thrice voted into power?
Ermm ok.
So when you protest against soldiers murdering innocent civilians, I can remind you of this post and claim that they (the soldiers) might be part of a "fatalistic society" and that it could make them "survivors as a people"? Would that be a fair enough assessment?:)
Its hard to explain. The logic behind "forgiving" that governer, for example, is that since there is not enough evidence to bring him in, we might as well give him another chance to see if he does better. And he has, he's abandoned his radical stance and helped turn the economy of the state around. This is a state that has seen much poverty and famine in the last 60 years and people are relieved to be able to get drinking water and food, so they can overlook the massacres as the vagaries of power. They haven't forgotten it though, they are simply giving him the opportunity to make up for it. Its the kind of thing you expect Indians to do. After all, he is "one of our own" is an entrenched mentality in the people.
American soldiers targeting civilians is entirely different. If the US ever manages to get India embroiled in their nonsense, you'll see the difference in attitude immediately. For all our much vaunted nonviolence, we can be a very violent people and if the west thinks martyrdom in the middle east is a problem, they have no idea what they are missing out on in Indians. :D
You think it's somehow better than what we apparently practice in "secular countries"?
Yeah, India is not a punishment oriented society. Most Indians prefer a resolution to the issue instead. Unfortunately, we are becoming "westernised" and hence have a greater and greater tendency to want to inflict retribution on people. I don't see this as a good sign. Retribution is never a good basis for society.
Its the other side of the coin of tolerance and I can understand why the Haredi are facing that same problem with their extremist elements. Its also the same reason why the Saudis tolerate their mutawwas.
Let me give you some advice NGM.Your advice is so valuable to me. I eagerly await any advice you can provide, Oh wise one. Your insight is extremely valuable and worth more than all the treasures of the world combined. Your opinion is absolute truth. No one should ever dare to disagree with one so pure and full of wisdom. Each day, I shall eagerly await your latest declarations of all-knowing, all-wise, blessed statements of truth. I'm truly a blessed person to be guided so personally by one so wise, honest and forthcoming with knowledge.
Please, tarry no more with contact with my lowly self. Bless all of the members here with more wisdom from the fountain of omnipresent knowledge that you and only you can have. Please, wipe your feet on me. Use me to step upon in your quest to educate the masses. I consider myself blessed when allowed to read your wise and impressive statements of absolute fact.
Thank you, Oh thank you for your thoughtful and generous allowance of educating observance.
I feel so much better now that you've helped me understand how wrong I was to argue with you.
Its hard to explain. The logic behind "forgiving" that governer, for example, is that since there is not enough evidence to bring him in, we might as well give him another chance to see if he does better. And he has, he's abandoned his radical stance and helped turn the economy of the state around. This is a state that has seen much poverty and famine in the last 60 years and people are relieved to be able to get drinking water and food, so they can overlook the massacres as the vagaries of power. They haven't forgotten it though, they are simply giving him the opportunity to make up for it. Its the kind of thing you expect Indians to do. After all, he is "one of our own" is an entrenched mentality in the people.
Which could lead to a build up of resentment and hatred, which could then lead to further bloodshed, regardless of the clean water and food that poverty stricken people are given access to. The simple fact that they haven't forgotten it and won't forget it any time soon is a dangerous proposition. How can one make up for a massacre that one was responsible for? The survivors and the families of the deceased.. how can they simply look past the fact that the person responsible has now been rewarded with a plum paying job in their very society. It seems to be a dangerous proposition to me.
And as you state yourself:
American soldiers targeting civilians is entirely different. If the US ever manages to get India embroiled in their nonsense, you'll see the difference in attitude immediately. For all our much vaunted nonviolence, we can be a very violent people and if the west thinks martyrdom in the middle east is a problem, they have no idea what they are missing out on in Indians.
Your people can become very violent if pushed.
I really don't see a difference between a soldier not being charged for lack of evidence and possibly getting a promotion to a person responsible for a massacre not being charged and then becoming a Governor. Both have committed heinous acts and both have gotten away with it, with resentment and hatred festering in the background. What if a soldier accused of killing innocent civilians then returns to his scene of the crime and 'does good deeds'? Does that suddenly absolve him of any guilt for his crimes? I don't think so.
At our hearts, we want the people who have wronged us to pay. And I can assure you, if someone went on a rampage and killed members of my family, I would not rest until that individual were either jailed or dead. But then again, I am a vengeful individual. For all of my hatred of violence, I would commit acts of violence against someone who harmed or killed one of my own.:)
Yeah, India is not a punishment oriented society. Most Indians prefer a resolution to the issue instead. Unfortunately, we are becoming "westernised" and hence have a greater and greater tendency to want to inflict retribution on people. I don't see this as a good sign. Retribution is never a good basis for society.
Wasn't it in India that employees went on a rampage and killed their employers? Or was that in another country?
While your country many not be a punishment oriented society, people do seek their pound of flesh.. honour killings and beatings for example, are fairly prevalent in Indian society. I don't think that is a movement towards Westernisation. I think it is a movement in the opposite direction of what the West espouses.
Its the other side of the coin of tolerance and I can understand why the Haredi are facing that same problem with their extremist elements. Its also the same reason why the Saudis tolerate their mutawwas.
Fear of a revolt? The Haredi Jews have entrenched themselves in the political arena in Israel. They are pandered to. And their propensity for violence when things do not go their way can lead to unrest within the nation itself. Look what happened with the gay pride parade where their protests were extremely violent.
Do you hear a buzzing noise? Like a pesky mosquito? Ah yes..
NGM
Seriously.. Dude.. leave me alone already.
Get some help. Go and take a walk. Spend time with your family. But what you're doing? It's not healthy. I have asked you several times now to cut it out. Do you have a comprehension problem? Does it make you feel like a big man to harass and stalk people on internet forums?
Grow up.
I won't be replying to your trolling again.
Which could lead to a build up of resentment and hatred, which could then lead to further bloodshed, regardless of the clean water and food that poverty stricken people are given access to. The simple fact that they haven't forgotten it and won't forget it any time soon is a dangerous proposition. How can one make up for a massacre that one was responsible for? The survivors and the families of the deceased.. how can they simply look past the fact that the person responsible has now been rewarded with a plum paying job in their very society. It seems to be a dangerous proposition to me.
Yeah, because you're not Indian. Look at how we dealt with the assassination of our Prime Minister by militants from Sri Lanka. We accepted we should not have got involved and signed a peace treaty with them. Do you think we should have invaded and occupied Sri Lanka instead?
I really don't see a difference between a soldier not being charged for lack of evidence and possibly getting a promotion to a person responsible for a massacre not being charged and then becoming a Governor. Both have committed heinous acts and both have gotten away with it, with resentment and hatred festering in the background. What if a soldier accused of killing innocent civilians then returns to his scene of the crime and 'does good deeds'? Does that suddenly absolve him of any guilt for his crimes? I don't think so.
Thats the heart of the difference between your society and mine. You see every act as a crime that is to be reckoned with, I don't. If people accept that they did wrong and amend their ways, there is no reason to keep ill will against them. Punishing them won't change the past.
At our hearts, we want the people who have wronged us to pay. And I can assure you, if someone went on a rampage and killed members of my family, I would not rest until that individual were either jailed or dead. But then again, I am a vengeful individual. For all of my hatred of violence, I would commit acts of violence against someone who harmed or killed one of my own.:)
If someone attacked my family, I would want to kill them too. But if there were extenuating circumstances [insanity, mass hysteria of rioting, etc] I would see no benefit to seeing them punished if they would make it up in some way that would be beneficial to me or society. The concept of "closure" and "payback" is very western.
Wasn't it in India that employees went on a rampage and killed their employers? Or was that in another country?
Thats very Indian too. Its why the sepoy was crushed so mercilessly by the British. We have no respect for authority. :D
While your country many not be a punishment oriented society, people do seek their pound of flesh.. honour killings and beatings for example, are fairly prevalent in Indian society. I don't think that is a movement towards Westernisation. I think it is a movement in the opposite direction of what the West espouses.
That has nothing to do with retribution, its a failing attempt to sustain the caste system, which has degraded a great extent from the original varana system.
Fear of a revolt? The Haredi Jews have entrenched themselves in the political arena in Israel. They are pandered to. And their propensity for violence when things do not go their way can lead to unrest within the nation itself. Look what happened with the gay pride parade where their protests were extremely violent.
Thats a law and order problem. Not a Haredi problem.
Hmm...... it seems religion should burn in Hell!!!!
To polarized....
And listen I do not care if someone can build a f-ing atomic bomb out of a toilet, if you are not trying to fight religion your a pervert.
phlogistician
10-07-08, 09:13 AM
You could always move. Or find other people who think like you. Autonomy is socially agreed upon values.
Typical SAM, taking a word, and getting the meaning completely wrong.
The concept of 'a Haredi neighbourhood' is religious persecution. They are free to believe in whatever nonsense they want, but their rights end where another's begin, and they should be mindful of that. Their beliefs only bind themselves.
They are free to believe in whatever nonsense they want, but their rights end where another's begin, and they should be mindful of that. Their beliefs only bind themselves.
Yup, totally agree.
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