View Full Version : "Re-incarnation" makes alot of sense!
Norsefire
10-06-08, 12:11 AM
And I'll tell you why.
Even from a materialist perspective, where consciousness is derived from the brain, does that not in fact support the idea of reincarnation?
Not necessarily that "you" are "reborn", but rather that "you", after death, are born again into consciousness, as a different person. Not "you" but "consciousness"
What I mean is, if consciousness is derived from the brain, doesn't that mean that consciousness must exist as long as a conscious brain exists? So you can die....and because more people are being born, you would remain conscious as that brain
I don't know, it's hard to really describe what I'm trying to say but I hope you understand.
You may very well be proving that human intelligence is most probably our greatest fault.
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 12:41 AM
And I'll tell you why.
Even from a materialist perspective, where consciousness is derived from the brain, does that not in fact support the idea of reincarnation?
Not necessarily that "you" are "reborn", but rather that "you", after death, are born again into consciousness, as a different person. Not "you" but "consciousness"
What I mean is, if consciousness is derived from the brain, doesn't that mean that consciousness must exist as long as a conscious brain exists? So you can die....and because more people are being born, you would remain conscious as that brain
I don't know, it's hard to really describe what I'm trying to say but I hope you understand.
It sounds to me like you might be basing this 'makes sense' on something like the conservation of energy. But a problem comes in in saying what consciousness is and is made of and does it need to be conserved when the body breaks down. But go for it Norsefire. I'll try to back you up on this one if I get a clearer sense of your position and I agree with it.
Perhaps we are all the same consciousness. Perhaps everything is. Any Eastern philosophers around?
We are all human. That pretty much dictates there will be similarities, you want to call it consciousness then call it that. The title is reincarnation and by the numbers then reincarnation is impossible. And what would be the purpose? Do we write the same book over and over? Sit there and paint the same picture? This whole philosophy evolved from one human reincarnating into another because the original version is virtually impossible and now it is consciousness. It's all bullshit.
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-06-08, 01:50 AM
By the numbers then reincarnation is impossible? What numbers?
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-06-08, 02:19 AM
You think you know how many people have been born?
did you actually read this thread?
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-06-08, 02:38 AM
I need to read the thread to participate? NOW you tell me.
I prostate myself to your wisdom.
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 08:44 AM
The title is reincarnation and by the numbers then reincarnation is impossible. I am assuming you mean that since there are more people now reincarnation is impossible. But this assumes things. For example, that all the souls or consciousnesses were present (here on earth, rather than say elsewhere in the universe) earlier on.
It's true i dont know much about it but I was recently thinking about that.
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 11:08 AM
It's true i dont know much about it but I was recently thinking about that.It's funny but there is a scene in BEfore Sunrise where the guy - Ethan Hawke - is explaining to the girl - Julie Delphy that the reason there are more people is because souls are breaking into pieces - or something close to that. (not that I am saying this is the case). Most reincarnation believers talk about new souls and old souls. So some people had their first birth a long time ago, some more recently, perhaps even in this life. There are other versions out there also. In some versions of reincarnation animals can 'move up' into human forms. Thus the animal kingdom provides a rather large resevoir for 'new' humans. (again I'm not saying this is the way it works)
That sounds interesting. It would be perfect if we can remember our past lives. maybe, at times, we do.:scratchin:
cosmictraveler
10-06-08, 12:05 PM
I don't know, it's hard to really describe what I'm trying to say but I hope you understand.
Once your life force has been extinguished and the flame of life has passed away, the essence of what you were can never be reanimated into another's life force for that wouldn't be a good thing to do. Everyone starts off with a clean mind with no other "baggage" hidden away to give it directions or for thoughts. While many would like to believe that you could be "reborn" that is only a myth and cannot be substantiated by any scientific means. If you would like to believe in that sort of thing without proofthen that is up to you and your right to do so. IMHO :itold:
I don't know, it's hard to really describe what I'm trying to say but I hope you understand.
You can't explain what you don't understand yourself.
Once your life force has been extinguished and the flame of life has passed away, the essence of what you were can never be reanimated into another's life force for that wouldn't be a good thing to do. Everyone starts off with a clean mind with no other "baggage" hidden away to give it directions or for thoughts. While many would like to believe that you could be "reborn" that is only a myth and cannot be substantiated by any scientific means. If you would like to believe in that sort of thing without proofthen that is up to you and your right to do so. IMHO :itold:
People believed in dragons and elves. Wouldnt surprise me if some still do.
Norsefire
10-06-08, 05:45 PM
Cosmic, I don't mean any essence or soul of a specific identity being reborn.
I simply mean, your biological body dies and thus, your consciousness. New bodies are born, however, and new consciousnesses formed, so would "you" or "a person" become conscious "again"?
cosmictraveler
10-06-08, 07:10 PM
Cosmic, I don't mean any essence or soul of a specific identity being reborn.
I simply mean, your biological body dies and thus, your consciousness. New bodies are born, however, and new consciousnesses formed, so would "you" or "a person" become conscious "again"?
No.
Lordznebula5
10-06-08, 07:57 PM
A soul enters through the back of head. Many cultures think so. I support that reincarnation be the scientific truth. :itold:
Lordznebula5
10-06-08, 08:07 PM
One right here. But I'm partial to Hinduism not Buddhism. I don't think we re all the same consciences. But reincarnation even though we begin with clean slate. We are able to meditate and find that previous life somewhere within out being if we meditate long and hard enough. I sense many previous lives.
Certainly must be that some are created fresh and some are older souls. :thankyou: Perhaps we are all the same consciousness. Perhaps everything is. Any Eastern philosophers around?
Cosmic, I don't mean any essence or soul of a specific identity being reborn.
I simply mean, your biological body dies and thus, your consciousness. New bodies are born, however, and new consciousnesses formed, so would "you" or "a person" become conscious "again"?
The use of "again" implies some that there is some shared identity between this consciousness and a previous one.
What possibilities are there for the nature that identity?
CutsieMarie89
10-06-08, 08:51 PM
Re incarnation makes sense to me. When you die your identity may seize to exist, but perhaps if you believe in a life energy or essence then perhaps that energy becomes part of something or someone else. Like the Conservation of energy law.
Norsefire
10-06-08, 09:01 PM
No.
Why not?
The use of "again" implies some that there is some shared identity between this consciousness and a previous one.
What possibilities are there for the nature that identity?
It's the only way I can convey my idea.
You are a conscious being, as your identity. When you die, your consciousness ceases to exist. However, because new consciousnesses are being created, "you" will always be conscious
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 09:05 PM
The use of "again" implies some that there is some shared identity between this consciousness and a previous one.
What possibilities are there for the nature that identity?Let's say that selves are a bit like magnetic fields and they tend to gather bodies around them.
As long as new consciousness is being created, then something will always be conscious, yes... but if is there is some link between these conscious things, then what might the nature of that link be? You seem to be suggesting a continuing identity at some level?
I like the idea personally, although it's likely that my own take on it differs from your own in important ways. The way I think of it really changes the very nature of personal identity (what am I[/i?)], and leads to interesting positive [i]moral consequences.
Norsefire
10-06-08, 09:18 PM
As long as new consciousness is being created, then something will always be conscious, yes... but if is there is some link between these conscious things, then what might the nature of that link be? You seem to be suggesting a continuing identity at some level?
No, no continuing identity. Your brain creates your consciousness....and when it dies, your consciousness dies.
However, because something will always be conscious, consciousness always surivives. So wouldn't consciousness still exist after WE die?
Yes, it does... but you're suggesting a link between the old and new consciousnesses? Otherwise there's no reincarnation, nothing that becomes conscious "again", only independent entities that are both conscious, right?
Norsefire
10-06-08, 09:24 PM
I mean "again" only to suggest that after YOU die, SOMEONE ELSE is being born that consciousness is supported by
Thus, it is impossible for there to be "nothingness" when we die.
You say independent entities. Ok. So is it possible for us to die and then be an independent entity?
Well, in what way would the new entity be "you"?
On a related note, this is good reading:
Personal identity (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-personal/)
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 09:48 PM
IN what way are you the same you you were when you were a kid?
Simon Anders
10-06-08, 10:18 PM
As long as new consciousness is being created, then something will always be conscious, yes... but if is there is some link between these conscious things, then what might the nature of that link be? You seem to be suggesting a continuing identity at some level?It sure seems that way. It seems that it was me, before.
I mean "again" only to suggest that after YOU die, SOMEONE ELSE is being born that consciousness is supported by
Thus, it is impossible for there to be "nothingness" when we die.
You say independent entities. Ok. So is it possible for us to die and then be an independent entity?
I am split on this 50% some days i think there may be and some days i dont. What about animals. I am not the type to compare humans to animals but they are living creatures.
You cannot say there is nothingness either because it is very possible. Nature does not seem to have even the slightest bit of consciousness if looked at as a whole.
In fact t is completely indifferent and humans are not a requirement for Earth\life. The Earth will go on without humans, animals will dominate and plants will still grow. Beautiful flowers will bloom with bees and all kinds of bugs.
It is not hard to envision. There will be battles within the animal kingdom so we cannot say it will be peaceful either.
SkinWalker
10-06-08, 11:08 PM
I am not the type to compare humans to animals but they are living creatures.
Why wouldn't anyone be willing to compare humans to other animals? There's a lot to learn from such comparisons, particularly when compared with other primates.
Consciousness. Is what you see really intelligence? To expand on this we can look at the aforementrioned animal kingdom. Lets look at animals we are more familiar with.
There are levels of what appear to be consciousness but may be due more to, i hate to use the term evolution because i cannot personally put this development into a time frame or sequence of events as convincingly as others do. There does seem to be more development but then look at alligators and crocodiles.
Dogs and wolves for example are interesting to look at because the domesticated version seems to be much further removed from the wild version. Maybe even not due to the fact that they are domesticated or viewed that way.
Dogs would have a higher consciousness than cats, imho, due to their ability to be loyal. Which can be viewed as more advanced.
The problem is that there are no real experts and we are pretty much in the wild on this. The more i think about it the more i have come to realize that this may in fact be the case. That there are no experts, and lets be honest - how can there be?
Why wouldn't anyone be willing to compare humans to other animals? There's a lot to learn from such comparisons, particularly when compared with other primates.
I think it is just wanting to believe that we are different, based mostly on what we create.
SkinWalker
10-06-08, 11:24 PM
Of course we're different. If there were no differences, what would be the point of comparing and contrasting?
StrangerInAStrangeLa
10-07-08, 12:33 AM
I am assuming you mean that since there are more people now reincarnation is impossible. But this assumes things. For example, that all the souls or consciousnesses were present (here on earth, rather than say elsewhere in the universe) earlier on.
Good points. Also no 1 knows how many people have lived on this planet.
Once your life force has been extinguished and the flame of life has passed away, the essence of what you were can never be reanimated into another's life force for that wouldn't be a good thing to do. Everyone starts off with a clean mind with no other "baggage" hidden away to give it directions or for thoughts. While many would like to believe that you could be "reborn" that is only a myth and cannot be substantiated by any scientific means.
You don't know that.
If you would like to believe in that sort of thing without proofthen that is up to you and your right to do so. IMHO
In the 5 or 6 weeks I've participated here, I haven't seen anyone advocating believing reincarnation without proof. Some like to discuss it & believe in considering possibilities.
Cosmic, I don't mean any essence or soul of a specific identity being reborn.
I simply mean, your biological body dies and thus, your consciousness. New bodies are born, however, and new consciousnesses formed, so would "you" or "a person" become conscious "again"?
Whether 1 believes in reincarnation or god or whatever, that statement makes no sense.
+++++++++OOPS I meant to read page 2 before posting this.
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