Are schools bad for us?

[Adam]

For gazillions of years young humans grew up surrounded by kin, maybe not learning maths and chemistry, but basically learning about being part of human society. Very, very recently we started eradicating that part of our evolution and stuffing kids into packets called schools. From the age of maybe 5 to around 18, when before they would have been learning basically to be humans, they are now separated for most of their waking hours from their kin, surrounded by people who are pretty much strangers. What effects is this drastic change having on individuals and on society in general? Is it bad for us?

[Merlijn]

It sure is to be preferred to sitting alone behind a game-computer!

I think it's quite impossible for children not to go to school nowadays, since many houses are empty during the day... mom and dad are at work.

[Xenu]

You told me to start this thread, and I was going to, and then I forgot. I'm sorry Adam.

I'll see what I can dig up on this. I am in agreement with you (or it seems that way) on this, I don't know if there has been much research on it though.

"There's some tomatoes
Chemically engineered
They come out square
To fit in boxes
There's some people
Chemically engineered
They come out square
To fit in boxes"

-Dan Bern, Go to Sleep

[Gifted]

It's not the idea, it's the system. The curriculums are horrible, and teachers don't get paid enough to attract people that would be good.

[Merlijn]

they attracted me... well actually I realised that I wanted to be a teacher. Even as a kid I always wanted to tell about things and explain everything I understood (or thought to understand).
makes sense.

[Zero]

It serves a purpose, and the curriculum isn't exactly horrible. Try going to some other educational systems in the world and you will start lovin' your friendly neighborhood school.

And besides, it's all about learning WITH other people.

[Merlijn]

Zero, that is sooo true!
thanks

[Adam]

Originally posted by Zero
It serves a purpose, and the curriculum isn't exactly horrible. Try going to some other educational systems in the world and you will start lovin' your friendly neighborhood school.

And besides, it's all about learning WITH other people.
I've seens schools in many nations/cultures. Yes, there are differences. But discussing those differences does not in any way touch upon the subject of this thread.

[Merlijn]

"But discussing those differences does not in any way touch upon the subject of this thread."
That is true, but "And besides, it's all about learning WITH other people." does bear relevance to the subject.

I see school as an advanced form of the social (educational) structure for lion-cubs.

[Zero]

I'm just trying to say that the curriculum is not bad or useless.

And, what would be an alternative to school, may I ask? The ideal thing would be to somehow research neurology to the point where we can inject knowledge into a brain.

Ha ha imagine a two year old reciting Shakespeare

[Adam]

Originally posted by Zero

Ha ha imagine a two year old reciting Shakespeare
Damn that's a freaky image. A stage full of tiny kids acting out Othello... *shiver*

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

I like school. Call me nerd, but I find school exciting, frequently amusing, fun, and perfectly sensible. You play and learn at the same time. I like all of my teachers. If they give me a 60% in a course, it's not their fault. They are just a reflection on my own poor abilities; therefore I should try harder. And being in school beats doing nothing, or having to find out things on my own.

--Zero and Adam--
Yeah, I agree about the absurdity of small children reciting Shakespeare. It'd be pointless to have the information injected, because you'd just be another computer without the processing abilities. All input, no output. :)
But then again, parents won't have to worry about their kids asking where babies come from, or why Suzy and Robbie are different when they have no pants on :D

[Adam]

Originally posted by %BlueSoulRobot%
I like school. Call me nerd, but I find school exciting, frequently amusing, fun, and perfectly sensible.
Nerd! :p

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

*lol!* I was just asking for it, wasn't I? Literally, heheh! :p :D

[Cactus Jack]

Well even if we could inject knowledge into our brains, some social gathering place such as school should be required. Seriously school is where we develope our social interaction skills, how to make friends or enemies, how to deal with both, forming cliques, working in a group, etc. I feel that is rather important. What I hate is grades, they are absolutely uselss and further more create an elite system. People judge your intelligence upon grades in this society, its disgusting but true. Either that or you're "gifted", what if you don't fit into either. I hope that many people on these forums would recognize the fact I am intelligent, but I don't get all A's I feel it is a poor system and I don't wanna do the work in classes I don't care about to recieve good grades when I could be taking that home work time and reading a philosophy book I am interested in or debating on sciforums. There are many people I can think of off the top of my head that get good grades in school but are not as intelligent as I am, not nearly. They just can work the system and further more stress themselves the fuck out with all this homework, I hate being judged by my grades in subjects I don't want to work hard in. Example of such a subject, Science - I knew everything that was being taught to me in that class, why should I do all the homework when I can be learning something new that interests me?

That brings me to my second point, higher math (beyond algebra) and science should be electives. Now I realize why schools would not want to make them as such so they could keep their students options for the future open. But I still feel they should be electives do to the fact if they do not interest you and you are positive you are going into a field which does not require them, then taking them is a waste of your time and further more boring as hell.

YES, the school system needs changes, but no it is not inherently bad.

[Pollux V]

When I left my old Elementary School I was overjoyed, I had so many bad experiences there, not with the grades, but with the teachers, take for example, the science fair (8th grade).

It was on April 4 of 2000 when I had a tooth pulled. Coincidently, this was the same day as the science fair, and I returned to school a few hours after I had started with bloodsoaked cotton in my mouth and a serious speech impedement. I had brought a poster with me that I had scrounged together after a half hour of work the night before, which was just awful, but I was yelled at by the teacher, it makes me shudder to think about it, because of how awful the poster was. I had to spend the rest of the day making a new one. My god that day really, really, really sucked.

Not to mention the principal was a nazi. She ran through the hallways, shouting "mong shnel!" at wayward kindergardeners. Hahaa just kidding, its a little joke of mine, since after she arrived I think 3/4 of the teachers there decided to retire or move to another school.

When I arrived at High School I was in Heaven, English-with a great teacher, a very challenging class, computer programming with a burnout who had no idea what he was talking about, and two social studies classes! One dirt easy, where I established myself as king (arguably) and one dirt hard but where I learned the most from maybe any other class in the school. I loved it!

But then...then a plague began to set in, yes, probably unfamiliar to any other high schoolers on sciforums from any other place on earth, gasp, portfolios!! They're sick little requirements, things we must finish, must bring up to standards by the time we graduate, or else we don't get a diploma. The system is beurocratic nonsense, thousands of dollars go into it yet all we get is a pizza party (with crappy pizza I might add-there are a million pizza joints on the island and they picked the worst one). If the students were allowed to decided it would be 100% unanimous-no more portfolios. It is the scourge of my local society.

[Cactus Jack]

Yeah, hes right portfolios are BS. Seriously I can understand having one where you ad your teacher choose things to put in, because it can show great reflection and what you learned. However these are horrific. The school chooses what you put in - no reflection and useless papers, you cannot graduate without them and these pieces must be up to standard - You forget a one page lab-report on bouncing balls that you learned absolutely nothing from and you cannot graduate, finally most subjects have just turned to making up projects to fit results - useless projects the teachers aren't clear on in which you do not learn anything but most do or you do not graduate. Also. our school lets you choose your classes freely - or did. Now you have to take classes to get the portfolio requirments, I wasn't allowed to choose what social studies class I was going to take I was forced to take a certain one. Once again making me hate the school system for forcing me to either learn things I don;t care about or allready have found out for myself. GOD DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gifted]

What I found bad was in high school we had an "alternative assesment" of which th epurpose was that, theoretically, if you did bad on tests, the alt assesment project could even out the score and let you pass the course. Theoretically, of course. I got a stunning score on one exam, but because I got a 30% on the alt. asses., I failed. Summer school was fun though. Good teacher.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

Alternative assessment?? Portfolios?? I've never heard of these things.....

Yeah, sometimes it just feels as if they teach useless junk to rub your nose in it, eh, Cactus Jack? But hey, now you know what you hate, so you can avoid it, right? :D

I like school just because it's fun to be around other kids, and like that crazy old lady with all the cats says: What doesn't kill you straight off will leave you bitter and cynical for the future. :D And what may seem like something large and terrible today will probably seem like nothing at all, after the hell you're going to face during life, not to be pessimistic or anything. :)

Grades are ok, as long as I get good ones. What I hate, though, is when parents bribe their children to get good grades. Those lucky bastards. And here I am, slaving away for what? The satisfaction of having a 93% average? The pride of knowing I'll get a handsome transcript? Noooo. Grr. :mad: But I'm ok. :D

[Avatar]

never heard of them also, and I'm so happy about it.

anywayz, 2002/2003 will be my last year in K12:)

[Gifted]

The idea behind an alternative assessment is that you don't need to be a test whiz to pass the course. I'm sure there are people here that dont' do well on tests, but would make a perfect score on a project or paper. The idea was that these people could use the alternative assassment to make up for a poor test score, passing the course. It didn't always work.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

Hey, if alternative assessment's like that, then it should work out great! I mean, you could still pass a course when getting 70's on tests, and doing assignments are easy, so then it should be no problem, right? :D

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

Happy early graduation Avatar! A year early, but what the hey :D What are you planning to do after?

[Avatar]

hmmm- we can start here to learn at the age of 7 also. I chose that. Was smart- why start earlier and sacrifice one year:D

after?hmmm.
I think I'm going for international bank relations, communications , money transfers. Not that I'd really enjoy it, but in our country computer guys receive such payment that I could even not afford myself a new computer.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

You get to start school at the age of 7? Lucky!! I had to start at 4!

Wow! Money relations, eh? So, do you get to count and feel the actual money, or just punch numbers? You must be really good in mathematics then, because a lot of people depend on banks...But you're lucky, you know exactly what you want to do...I don't have a clue myself. :(

[Avatar]

I'm not talking about gindergarten.
but I never went to it also.
hasn't hurt my head though.
I learned to read at 2.5 years
(not bad at the age of 3)
and simple write at 4 (not sentences)


was a good start, but now I'm more lazy than then. can find no real motivation. that's my problem. but it should be otherwise next year. then the real game starts.

good at mathematics?
I wouldn't say that I'm bad at algebra, quite good actually, but terrible at geometry.

no counting.
I'll first try to get into international electronical money transfers (tht's the future). then after international bank relations and communications. It's more a diplomatical and economical job than mathematical.

why I'm going into that-> simple-
I need money to do what I like that requires money
buy most advanced hardware, build a large house. I have already planned it's advanced defence and alarm system. in great detail actually.
these kind of things.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

I see... :cool:

[Gifted]

The problem: I had two courses. In one, I didn't do the assessment at all. In the other, I got 30%. The course I didn't do it at all, I passed, because of my exam score. My exam in the other course was at least as good, but I failed due to my poor score on the assessment. It generally wasn't as alternate as it should be. Come to think of it, I think it would be better to have the assessment truly alternative. In other words, you choose the exam, or the project.

I read The Sword of Shannara in seventh grade.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

Aw man, that sucks, Gifted... :( :(

I read Ender's Game in grade 7 :D (We had a whole unit on Ender's Game, where I discovered the genius of Orson Scott Card...good memories... :) )

[Zero]

Does it suck that I'm stuck at a summer science camp??

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

Of course not Zero, unless you hate science... :( But summer camp sounds like a fun idea! :)

[harrykarry]

I think schools are bad for the individual and society. Sure, in days- gone-by the wealthy were given private education but even so, they only took over the family fortunes. the majority of common folks weren't book-learned and I can appreciate the advantages of a literate society but... at some point too much good turns bad...

imagine a society of people investigating their interests to their ultimate conclusions. not possible. we're too busy being herded to and from our cubicals. drop the kids at day care or school so they can be poisoned into believing that confomity, and "fit into the work environment" are necessary. i hope all of those little angry hoodlums we see walking around with nose rings and tatoos can save us from our politically correct brain washing.

schools and peer groups discourage individuality and exceptional, creative thought. better to live with a pack of wild wolves and eat berries in the wilderness then to be forced to live in this suppressed society.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

But you need a good balance of conformity and individualism to provide for everyone, or else some crazy Hitler-esque people would probably be shooting up everyone else. But I do like your idea of living with a pack of wild wolves and eating berries in the wilderness. Ignorance is bliss, man. :D

"I eated the purple berries. It tastes like burning!" - Ralph Wiggum :rolleyes: :)

And welcome to SciForums, harrykarry! :D

[lowefly]

I think it's important for children to go to school, if for no other reason than to learn to get along with others. I think it's good for people to learn that sometimes we "have" to do thing we don't enjoy.

I would however like to see the system change from a 1-12 grade system to a sytem were the children have to master basic skills. It is too common that children are passed on to the next grade without learning the skills taught in that grade. I've seen too many people get into high school and not have learned the basic grade school skills.

School sucked for me because the work was boring and even though I tested extremely high they kept me with my class. In the sixth grade I tested 2nd yr college level in english and math, and yet my actual grades were low.

[%BlueSoulRobot%]

Yeah Lowefly, I can understand what you mean. And welcome to Sciforums! :)

I think one of the major problems is that all children are different. They have varied learning rates, and when you try to accomadate them all within a school year, it ends up that many only recieve a mediocre or below standard education. Or, children who are mainly right-brain will appear to learn at a slower rate, because the education system really only appeals to left-brain pupils more. Society has taught us the left-brain skills are more important today, leaving us with higher student dropout rates, many of which are very creative and intelligent.

[NightFall]

i think school is a good way of getting children to interact with eachother. I lived in the country in my little-school years, and am an only child. there weren't any kids to play with for a long way, and the only time i saw someone my age ((besides the dog) was at school. Im still a very quiet and disconnected type person, i have been all my life, but i would have had an awful time fitting in throughout hughschool once i moved to the city especially if i had not gone to school when i was little. (((boy i hope that made sense))) as for the curriculum... i think it depends on the school and how much a student tries.... if the kid wants to learn, he's gonna learn. and they will give him things that intrest him. But all too often a kid will sit back and only take what he is given when he knows he could do more but wants to breeze his way through and then ten years or five years later says that school didn't teach him anything.



It's not the idea, it's the system. The curriculums are horrible, and teachers don't get paid enough to attract people that would be good.

I bugs me so much when people say that. My kindergarten teacher had a daughter that was the sma eage as i was and we were pretty good friends. I remember going to pool paries and cook outs at her house... her mom taught kindergarten.. her father taught jr high. and they were very wel off. huge house pool endless wooded acres... she had an entire floor to herself. We have teacher at our highschool that drives a porsche. My french teacher has a georgous house on a private lake and spends most of her time remodeling. her husband is also a teacher. They do make wuite a nice sum of money. atleast the ones here do. thats for sure.

[Gifted]

Some people also don't know how to manage thier money. I probably get paid less than most teachers, and I could probably manage a Porsche. A more personalized system would require more teachers, and some of the stuff some teachers have to put up with discourages them. I'll admit right now that I dont' have a solution, aside from telling you guys still in school to stick it out, hopefully things will get better.

[harrykarry]

no-one ever claims that you learn MORE in a large group school setting...

the whole socialization thing is the most common argument for schools. but really.... do you believe that throwing 35 kids together and letting them teach each other appropriate social skills is a good idea??????