Study into near-death experiences

[Michael]

Study into near-death experiences (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7621608.stm)Doctors at 25 UK and US hospitals will study 1,500 survivors to see if people with no heartbeat or brain activity can have "out of body" experiences. Some people report seeing a tunnel or bright light, others recall looking down from the ceiling at medical staff. The study, due to take three years and co-ordinated by Southampton University, will include placing on shelves images that could only be seen from above.

This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study. To test this, the researchers have set up special shelving in resuscitation areas. The shelves hold pictures - but they're visible only from the ceiling. Dr Sam Parnia, who is heading the study, said: "If you can demonstrate that consciousness continues after the brain switches off, it allows for the possibility that the consciousness is a separate entity.

Who wants to bet no one sees any of the pictures?

Michael

[Sarkus]

It'll be interesting to see if they apply strict controls to this test - or if there will be any leaking of information regarding what the pictures are.

I can imagine there might be some financial rewards (selling your story, for example) for being the first person to correctly name the pictures etc.

Furthermore, will the pictures be beyond guesswork?

"Ooh, I saw a dog."
"And a tree?"
"A house?"

"This is a mystery that we can now subject to scientific study" - hmmm - I'm not convinced from the article above on the standard of science that can be achieved, but look forward to the details of the experiment when published.

[CutsieMarie89]

How would that prove anything, if you are looking down at yourself you probably aren't focusing much on the scenery around your own body. I have a near death experience and I saw a dark tunnel, of course it might have just been my eyes closing. I was only four.

[Steve100]

Paint a number on their forehead, they're far more likely to notice that.

[cosmictraveler]

When I died for over 3 minutes I never saw anything but blackness. I don't believe anyone had any type of experience other than what I did EXCEPT those who want to make money or get recognized for their own glorified reasons. :mad:

[MacGyver1968]

I died for almost two hours once...then the credits rolled, and I realized "Norbit" the movie was finally over.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

I'm glad this is being done but this 1 experiment won't convince many. Evidently some "know" now what the results will be.
If there's nothing to this, it probably won't ever be proved negative. If there is something to it, I wouldn't guess how many hundreds (trillions?) of experiments it would take for it to be accepted by everyone.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Out of body experiences can be caused by strong magnetic fields near the brain. Whether anyone sees anything, that is not pure hallucination, is a different question.

[audible]

Out of body experiences can be caused by strong magnetic fields near the brain. Whether anyone sees anything, that is not pure hallucination, is a different question.Rotflmao, and your evidence for this is where, lol.

[Norsefire]

I don't think NDE's are hallucinations, simply for a few accounts; for instance, the man who was dead for three days. Not to mention instances where people are able to account for what was going on during their death, which means they can't be hallucinations.

[Steve100]

I don't think NDE's are hallucinations, simply for a few accounts; for instance, the man who was dead for three days. Not to mention instances where people are able to account for what was going on during their death, which means they can't be hallucinations.

Who says their brain doesn't make it up as soon as they come around?

[orcot]

it's a experiment. I stay objective and voted that I have no ID, altough I see no scientific reason how it should be possible. Mind you I'm planning my own little experiment in that area but that day can wait a looong time

[Carcano]

Who wants to bet no one sees any of the pictures?
They wouldnt be doing these experiments if there was no evidence to be confirmed already documented.

http://near-death.com/evidence.html

[Norsefire]

Who says their brain doesn't make it up as soon as they come around?

I highly, highly, highly doubt this. Remember, NDE's have occured throughout history to all sorts of different people of different cultures and different religions (as well as to atheists) and I doubt each and every one of them was what you describe.

[Sarkus]

They wouldnt be doing these experiments if there was no evidence to be confirmed already documented.

http://near-death.com/evidence.htmlThat web-site is full of flaws and very poor interpretation of the findings thus far. Their arguments and claims are... unscientific (e.g. "Experiencers are convinced the NDE is an afterlife experience." as an argument for the validity of the claim; and "The burden of proof has shifted to the skeptics of the survival theory.")

Part of me is not sure whether it is a joke site or whether they are being genuinely stupid...

Most of what they are saying certainly helps support the fact that something occurs - but that is not in dispute - whereas what actually occurs is very much in dispute - and there they have real trouble.

That site is, to put it bluntly, laughably ignorant.

[CutsieMarie89]

Data like this is based purely on experience so it isn't really scientific because it can't be observed by another party. You just to take someone else's word for it. This experiment is really just seeing how well people's stories match up.

[Norsefire]

Data like this is based purely on experience so it isn't really scientific because it can't be observed by another party. You just to take someone else's word for it. This experiment is really just seeing how well people's stories match up.

Not really. Remember, in this experiment there is actually a way to test whether or not NDE experiencers leave their bodies by testing the accuracy of their recall. It's a fair experiment.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Who says their brain doesn't make it up as soon as they come around?

Who says your brain isn't making all this up?

[Steve100]

Who says your brain isn't making all this up?

What sort of an argument is that?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

The same sort as yours.

[Carcano]

Anyone who wants to read more about the skeptical arguments on death experiences should check out this excellent resource:

http://victorzammit.com/book/4thedition/chapter06.html

[Carcano]

And this is a good documentary on the differences between death experiences and the effects of psychoactive drugs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcgOuQx4rlE

[Norsefire]

Carcano do you believe in the survival of consciousness after death?

[PsychoticEpisode]

The brain knows it's in trouble and is looking for a way out of a jam.

[Norsefire]

The brain knows it's in trouble and is looking for a way out of a jam.
Ah yes, the "Dying Brain" hypothesis. There are many flaws with this, most notably, that NDE experiencers are dead sometimes when they have their experience, or that the blind can see, etc

[Carcano]

Carcano do you believe in the survival of consciousness after death?
Yes...and also in psi phenomena.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew

[PsychoticEpisode]

Ah yes, the "Dying Brain" hypothesis. There are many flaws with this, most notably, that NDE experiencers are dead sometimes when they have their experience, or that the blind can see, etc

Dead is dead, no NDE'er was ever dead. To believe they died is juvenile wishful foolishness and a needed component if this study was to have any merit.

[Norsefire]

Dead is dead, no NDE'er was ever dead. To believe they died is juvenile wishful foolishness and a needed component if this study was to have any merit.

Plenty of NDE'ers were dead. They were declared dead by doctors.

[CutsieMarie89]

Dead is dead, no NDE'er was ever dead. To believe they died is juvenile wishful foolishness and a needed component if this study was to have any merit.

I thought you were considered dead when your heart stops beating. Dying is really scary sensation I hope I don't have to go through that anytime soon or perhaps I can just die without knowing that I'm dying.

[PsychoticEpisode]

Plenty of NDE'ers were dead. They were declared dead by doctors.

Well that should make it official. Plenty of cases where 'dead' people have caused a stir in the morgue. When you are dead, you don't ever come back.

Without googling I think the pioneer in NDE research was a Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. I believe at last count she had investigated over 500 NDE's, it may be more. Yes there's reports of a white light, deceased family members waiting, out-of-the body experiences and so forth but I seem to remember from way back that not one of the NDE's up until then had ever reported a Supreme Being. I stand corrected.

[Norsefire]

Well that should make it official. Plenty of cases where 'dead' people have caused a stir in the morgue. When you are dead, you don't ever come back. Yes, you do, sometimes, even after clinical death. Even people with no brain activity report experiencing an NDE after being revived.

Without googling I think the pioneer in NDE research was a Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. I believe at last count she had investigated over 500 NDE's, it may be more. Yes there's reports of a white light, deceased family members waiting, out-of-the body experiences and so forth but I seem to remember from way back that not one of the NDE's up until then had ever reported a Supreme Being. I stand corrected.
And the white light, and deceased family members aren't already incredible claims? Regardless, there have been reports of "meeting with God", where "God" is in the bright light, or rather, he IS the bright light.

[Norsefire]

Who wants to bet no one sees any of the pictures?

Michael

Wait a sec, you're a scientologist, right? Don't scientologists believe in survival of consciousness after death?

[Carcano]

Regardless, there have been reports of "meeting with God", where "God" is in the bright light, or rather, he IS the bright light.
That would cancel any possibility of being a 'he'. :p

Ive read about experiencers referring to the light as the 'breath of God'.

In any event, there is no man with a beard on a throne passing judgment.

Rather the judgment of one's own life happens as a kind of revelation from within.

[Michael]

Haaa! I'm not a Scientologists :p

I do like to frame some arguments using Xenu (even if they are logical fallacys) because it's funny to watch people like SAM et.al. defend their beleif in Allah and Mohammad as equivalent with Xenu and Ron Hubbard. Which they are.


Anyway, we will see what the experiment yields.

[Norsefire]

That would cancel any possibility of being a 'he'.
Ive read about experiencers referring to the light as the 'breath of God'.
In any event, there is no man with a beard on a throne passing judgment.
Rather the judgment of one's own life happens as a kind of revelation from within.

Ok, so what exactly do you believe in regards to NDE's? You say you believe that consciousness survives after death. OK, but do you believe in God? Or in a supreme consciousness? Or heaven? Or hell?

[Carcano]

OK, but do you believe in God? Or in a supreme consciousness? Or heaven? Or hell?
A supreme consiousness?

I dont even understand what the word 'mind' means...in its entirety.

According to the testimony of NDEs heaven and hell are states of experience...not places.

Most cases speak of peaceful, blissful, heaven-like experiences, but there are cases of terrifying visions as well, at least in the examples of people with criminal behaviour.

[Norsefire]

So if they are states of mind, then in heaven we can't actually communicate with others?

[Carcano]

So if they are states of mind, then in heaven we can't actually communicate with others?
I didnt say states of mind...I said states of experience.

[Norsefire]

I didnt say states of mind...I said states of experience.

Are we currently in a state of experience?

[Carcano]

Are we currently in a state of experience?
Very much so...someone who is schizophrenic for example experiences the world very differently than an average person.

Someone spiritually enlightened, like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjOsz4BDkCE experiences the world very differently on the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Norsefire]

Very much so...someone who is schizophrenic for example experiences the world very differently than an average person. It's the same world, though. So hell has to be a place. We might experience it differnetly, but it has to be somewhere. Where is it?

[Carcano]

So hell has to be a place.
Why?

[Norsefire]

Why?

Earth is a place. If we are experiencing this reality, the reality first has to exist. If we are to experience hell, it must first exist. So where is it?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

That's a huge if.

[Carcano]

Earth is a place. If we are experiencing this reality, the reality first has to exist. If we are to experience hell, it must first exist.
There are two choices:

1. You experience hell.

2. Hell is your experience.

[Norsefire]

That's a huge if.

No, it isn't. We are experiencing reality and therefore, reality must exist. IF we are to experience hell, as some people claim to have done, hell must first exist, and therefore must be "some where"

[Norsefire]

There are two choices:

1. You experience hell.

2. Hell is your experience.

1. Then where is hell?
2. So you can't communicate with other consciousnesses? Since the experience is YOURS in YOUR mind.

[Carcano]

2. So you can't communicate with other consciousnesses?
Why not? Some believe they communicate with other beings while asleep.

Whos to say that 'your mind' is some isolated container?

[Norsefire]

So we have a bunch of consciousnesses experiencing, relatively speaking, the same experience? Ok, that means it's a reality and therefore a place. Where is hell?

Don't get me wrong, I do believe in the survival of consciousenss after death also

[Carcano]

So we have a bunch of consciousnesses experiencing, relatively speaking, the same experience?

Its not exactly the same according to NDEs. It might have similar emotional characteristics, but there is still a lot of diversity.

[Norsefire]

Its not exactly the same according to NDEs. It might have similar emotional characteristics, but there is still a lot of diversity.

So which is it? Is it a creation of the mind or an actual experience of a reality? And if it is the latter, it means hell has to exist...somewhere.


Oh, we forgot to mention! Aren't there group NDE's as well? As in, alot of people experience an OBE at the same time, it's been reported, and can actually see each other while out of body the others are also out of body

[Carcano]

So which is it? Is it a creation of the mind or an actual experience of a reality? And if it is the latter, it means hell has to exist...somewhere.
I'm guessing the answer lies in some third option.

Heres a good article on hell-like experiences.

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/hell.html

[Norsefire]

I'm guessing the answer lies in some third option.

Heres a good article on hell-like experiences.

http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/hell.html

That's an interesting read. Ok, but what I'm really curious abut NDE's in general is when they speak of a "supreme being" or some even mention Christ. What is your opinion on that?

[Carcano]

That's an interesting read. Ok, but what I'm really curious abut NDE's in general is when they speak of a "supreme being" or some even mention Christ. What is your opinion on that?
I think they might experience a 'being' they call Christ...if they are Christian.

The being does not say:

"Oh btw, my name is Yeshua Bar Yosef...Jesus to you."

Buddhist NDEs might experience a similar being and name it after some historical Bodhisattva...according to their cultural conditioning.