How can someone convert to being one of those special people?

[Betrayer0fHope]

Jews and Christians are special peoples, how can one convert to being chosen or whatever?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Converting to christianity is pretty straightforward. You have to choose to believe in God, that Jesus was his son, that Jesus died as a sacrifice for your (and everyone's) sins, then simply ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your heart. Some people say you "feel" different, but I don't think that is a requirement.

A side note, aren't muslims special too? Hindus? Do you want to become a Jew or Christian? Why?

[SkinWalker]

Jews and Christians are special peoples, how can one convert to being chosen or whatever?

Just say, "I'm Jewish" or "I'm Christian."

Of course, it helps if you know a little of their doctrines and dogma. You'll also have to at least pretend to believe in it, but as long as other members of these cults believe you believe, then you're in.

[CheskiChips]

It's tougher than that. If you're Jewish and you try to marry another Jew an investigator searches you out and digs up all the dirt they can. If they find anything that warrants discontinuing the marriage or that your conversion wasn't done properly...he has authority to stop the wedding. In which case the Jewish woman probably wouldn't want to marry you anyways.

Converting to Judaism is difficult and can take anywhere between 6 months to 10 years, really all depending on how strict the rabbi is (Stricter, the more valid your conversion is.) For example reform conversions don't count in Orthodox communities, neither do Conservative (some do) and often a couple *to be unnamed* don't give valid conversions.
You have to learn to read Hebrew fluently, know some aramaic and be able to recognize Jewish law on many different topics.
And that's all if you can find someone who will do it for you..

[Betrayer0fHope]

Would everyone just accept me as a Jew or Muslim (I guess Christians are pretty lenient) if I suddenly claimed to be one?

[CheskiChips]

Would everyone just accept me as a Jew or Muslim (I guess Christians are pretty lenient) if I suddenly claimed to be one?

Not in a Jewish community.

[SkinWalker]

MOD: Please keep in mind the topic is about conversion to the two religions mentioned and not the legitimacy of one of these religions to occupy their nation. For that discussion, please see this thread. (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=85390)

[SnakeLord]

You have to choose to believe in God

How can you go about doing that? Do you just squeeze very hard or what?

[lightgigantic]

A side note, aren't muslims special too? Hindus?
How about atheists?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

How can you go about doing that? Do you just squeeze very hard or what?

The same way you choose to believe that you ill not choke when you eat. You think about it enough that the thought becomes second nature.

[(Q)]

The same way you choose to believe that you ill not choke when you eat. You think about it enough that the thought becomes second nature.

That's called 'self-delusion.'

[Mr. Hamtastic]

It's also called self-brainwashing. Beliefs are generally learned one way or another. You could simply begin living your life the way you imagine a christian should act, to include prayer. Before long... you find that the belief is more natural than the non-belief.

[SetiAlpha6]

Jews and Christians are special peoples, how can one convert to being chosen or whatever?

You supposedly have to be predestined by God to be a Christian in order to ever be able to choose to be a Christian now. That is what the Bible teaches anyway, so good luck. Because of this, no Christian can ever be 100% sure that they really are a "true" Christain.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

You supposedly have to be predestined by God to be a Christian in order to ever be able to choose to be a Christian now. That is what the Bible teaches anyway, so good luck. Because of this, no Christian can ever be 100% sure that they really are a "true" Christain.

What!? I declare you frooty, crunchy, and good with milk! /slaps SA with a large trout/ What evidence do you have of this? Chapter and verse if you please.

[SetiAlpha6]

What!? I declare you frooty, crunchy, and good with milk! /slaps SA with a large trout/ What evidence do you have of this? Chapter and verse if you please.

Glad you asked! I will look it up for you when I have a few minutes.

Thanks

[SetiAlpha6]

What!? I declare you frooty, crunchy, and good with milk! /slaps SA with a large trout/ What evidence do you have of this? Chapter and verse if you please.


Here are a few examples of what I was referring to:

According to the following text we were predestined for adoption before the world was ever created.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Sorry, but again, according to the following we are predestined.

Ephesians 1:11-12
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

And according to the next text, salvation is solely by God’s choice, has nothing to do with any sins committed, any good deeds done, or even man's “freewill” decision.

Romans 9:6-24
9For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." 13Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." 14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

In many other passages God allegedly even hardens, blinds, and confuses people Himself to actually prevent them from ever being saved. This is even the reason given in the Bible for why Jesus spoke to the people in parables instead of speaking in a way that they could clearly understand. Only the 12 were usually given the interpretations of the parables, not all the people. So, again, "the truth" was hidden from most people deliberately so they could not understand and be saved. I can look some of those passages up for you if you wish.

Anyway, you have to come to your own conclusions on all of this.

Best Wishes!

[spidergoat]

Jews and Christians are special peoples, how can one convert to being chosen or whatever?

Drink a quart of bleach.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

SA-I see what you're saying. As it was argued in another thread, God's foreknowledge makes our free will meaningless. If before the foundations of time all of the chosen were chosen, then what we do or say is meaningless, as we are all just clockwork automatons. There are better arguments against this than mine, but I will offer mine anyway. All mentions of predestination was made by Paul in letters. Paul, like any theologian, had good ideas and bad ideas. Predestination is one of his worse ideas. Why would God desire a relationship with us if we were merely colockwork automatons?

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, But to do justly, To love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?"-Micah 6:8

This verse sums up God's intentions for man eloquently. It implies that God desires a relationship with us. It seems an awkward way to go about things to create something that is going to follow a set path, then to desire a relationship with it.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

spidergoat-not bleach. Drano. Drink it quick because it'll burn on the way down.

[SetiAlpha6]

SA-I see what you're saying. As it was argued in another thread, God's foreknowledge makes our free will meaningless. If before the foundations of time all of the chosen were chosen, then what we do or say is meaningless, as we are all just clockwork automatons. There are better arguments against this than mine, but I will offer mine anyway. All mentions of predestination was made by Paul in letters. Paul, like any theologian, had good ideas and bad ideas. Predestination is one of his worse ideas. Why would God desire a relationship with us if we were merely colockwork automatons?

"He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you, But to do justly, To love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?"-Micah 6:8

This verse sums up God's intentions for man eloquently. It implies that God desires a relationship with us. It seems an awkward way to go about things to create something that is going to follow a set path, then to desire a relationship with it.


The question then might be:

If Paul is found to be teaching a false doctrine that involves a very basic component of the gospel itself, then how much can I trust him to teach "the truth" on anything else?

Thanks!

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Paul was human. I am going to assume you are human. Have you ever said something in error, while still being convinced you were right? Paul is talking about things that he can only guess at, aka talking out of one's ass. He is trying to give the christians he was writing to a "feelgood" speech. "We sure are special, don't you feel special? God chose us in particular to go through the absolute garbage that we're about to, or are in the process of, going through." People put too much emphasis on the various writers of the various books of the bible. Spiritually inspired, sure. God did not take over their bodies to write the various books. So you have their interpretation of what God wanted them to say. Then, in this instance, I believe the writing was in Greek. (correct me if I'm wrong) This was translated a few hundred years later into latin, then a few hundred years later into (wasn't gutenberg german?). Then to English. That's why I try not to put major doctrinal emphasis on individual words, if at all possible.

[SnakeLord]

The same way you choose to believe that you ill not choke when you eat.

I don't believe I will or will not choke, I just eat carefully to try and avoid it. So anyway, how does one go about making themselves believe in invisible beings? Squeeze real hard or what?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Snakelord-very interesting. I doubt that what you are saying is entirely truthful, but if it is truthful, so be it. When you were a child did you believe in Santa Claus? Tooth Fairy? Easter Bunny? The monster in the closet? If you did, then I would refer you to those experiences. If not, I'm sorry you missed out on such things.
You seem to want to flex something to believe. You have to make a choice to believe. If you decide to believe, then try to live your life as a christian, things will become simple. If you decide not to believe, there is nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise.

[SnakeLord]

When you were a child did you believe in Santa Claus? Tooth Fairy? Easter Bunny? The monster in the closet? If you did, then I would refer you to those experiences

As a child I was convinced by what I was told. That convincing came in the form of being told by my mother whom I had learnt to trust. She said it, I was convinced.

Likewise I would need to be convinced - I can't just pop a belief in the existence of some entity in my head. I am not convinced by theists claims which, frankly, I find beyond idiotic. That's not a choice, it's a cold hard fact.

Now, if you think you can just choose to believe in something and belief in it then let's have a challenge. I want you to believe that Lenny the leprechaun exists. Ready? Go for it. Let me know when it works :rolleyes:

there is nothing I can do or say to convince you otherwise

See, even you recognise that it's about being convinced, not just choosing to believe. Thank you, tata.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Is Lenny the Leprechaun my friend? I have a very detailed picture of him and everything, even a potential place for him to live. Now. I can take this choice of belief further and begin leaving food for Lenny, possibly attributing strange happenings to Lenny. To me, this is choosing to believe. If you choose to believe in God and begin acting as if God exists in everything you do and say, before long it stops seeming like it was a choice, but a revelation, and the non-existence of God begins to seem preposterous. It's a mental game we play with ourselves. It's like repeating self-affirming statements to yourself in a mirror. Eventually, you start to believe they are all true. Just the way the mind works.

And like I said if you CHOOSE not to believe, nothing I can do or say will convince you. Perhaps you would prefer if I said if you choose not to believe, I can not force you to do so. Better?

[SnakeLord]

Is Lenny the Leprechaun my friend? I have a very detailed picture of him and everything, even a potential place for him to live. Now. I can take this choice of belief further and begin leaving food for Lenny, possibly attributing strange happenings to Lenny. To me, this is choosing to believe.

So, come back to me when you do actually believe he exists. I'll be waiting, send me a pm or something.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Ok. Lenny says Hi, by the way. Apparently he isn't overly fond of "Goldfish", but likes Baked Lay's better.

[SnakeLord]

Uhuh..

Do you actually believe Lenny the leprechaun exists or are you just making things up to try and win? I don't mind which, but I bet it isn't the former.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

Win what? Lenny is as confused as I am.