Is-real or Iss-raa-eel?

[S.A.M.]

I heard someone pronounce Israel as Is-Real, rather than Iss-Raa-Eel.

What do you say?

[spidergoat]

Is-real is the Americanized version. Iss-raa-eel is the hebrew version.

[S.A.M.]

That explains it. I was brainwashed by the Arabic version.

[Fraggle Rocker]

The traditional English pronunciation was three syllables: IZ-ray-ell, with a long A. The third syllable was absorbed and it became IZ-rail, which is the way I heard it pronounced by Americans in the 1950s. I suspect the Brits had done the same thing, since the tendency to eliminate syllables is much stronger in British dialect than for us slow-talking Americans. Since AE is an uncommon vowel combination, nowadays Americans, including Jewish-Americans, perform the metathesis unconsciously and pronounce it as though it's spelled Isreal.

You're not transcribing the Hebrew pronunciation correctly. It's not Is-ra-eel, it's Is-ra-ell, with a short E. It's spelled that way in Hebrew. I don't remember the names of all the Hebrew vowel subscripts, but I can read them, and that one is a short E, not an English long E, which is really an IPA I.

In classical Hebrew the first vowel is a diphthong and it's pronounced Yis-ra'-ell. (With the glottal fricative ayin after the A, the same sound that's spelled GH in Romanized Arabic.) The name starts with the consonant yodh, which is pronounced Y. The mishmash that is modern Israeli Hebrew was scavenged from the way Jews who spoke Aramaic, Turkish, German, Russian, Arabic, English and any language except Hebrew read the liturgy phonetically without really knowing the language, and their pronunciation was influenced by 2500 years of Hebrew being less of a living language than Latin. So it's now Is-ra-ell, and often even Iz-ra-ell. If you consider how comically people pronounce Latin words, that's the way Israeli Hebrew would sound to Moses.

The name of Israel was taken from the man Israel, and it means "struggles with God." Isra'-el. El is the first syllable of eloh, the Hebrew word for "god," an obvious cognate of Arabic allah in a language family that doesn't regard vowels as important phonemes. Hebrew names were typically formed by truncating a syllable from one of the component words.

When the Jews became monotheists, they devised a new name for what they now considered the god, instead of a god. That name was spelled yodh he waw he, YHWH. Unlike virtually all other words from classical Hebrew, this one was never written with vowel subscripts, even for teaching or liturgy, because it was considered blasphemous to speak the god's name. Apparently they figured that if you had to guess at potentially three vowels, the chances of getting them right and committing inadvertent blasphemy were too small to worry about.

Two vowels were traditionally added, making it the Yahweh that you'll likely encounter in books on the history of Judaism. In the garbled phonetics of modern Israeli Hebrew the W has changed to V and the resulting H before a consonant has become silent, so it's pronounced Ya-veh in Israel.

The Romans of course transcribed our Y as J and our W as V. They didn't want to lose the first H so they inserted three vowels instead of two, and for reasons unknown to me they didn't retain the two that the Jews were using. So they wrote it as Jehovah. In English we don't pronounce J and V the way the Romans did, so that widely known name would probably not be recognizable to a speaker of either classical or modern Hebrew.

The church whose official name is The Watchtower and Bible Tract Society is colloquially known as the Jehovah's Witnesses.

[S.A.M.]

Well in Arabic it is إسرائيل‎

Which is Iss-Raa-Eel.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Well in Arabic it is إسرائيل‎ Which is Iss-Raa-Eel.I notice that vowel change has occurred in Arabic in many biblical names. They pronounce Gabriel as Gabreel. By historical linguistic accident, in English we stick closer to the original pronunciation in that one case.

Tell me, has Arabic lost the glottal fricative between the A and E, just as modern Hebrew has? That's weird, since modern Arabic still has the phoneme. At least it did when the Persians assimilated hundreds of Arabic words. Farsi actually has that phoneme, which is foreign to the Indo-Iranian languages. The name Ghotbzadeh is even harder to pronounce than it looks. :)

[S.A.M.]

glottal fricative between the A and E

No idea what that means.

[CheskiChips]

Yis-rah-el.

Yis = EEis
Rah = Small fricative at the beginning mixed with a 'w' sound.
El = ehl. With small space between h and l.

[Fraggle Rocker]

No idea what that ["glottal fricative"] means.It's the phoneme in Arabic and Farsi that's transliterated as GH in English, as in Maghreb. Except we all pronounce that as G since the sound doesn't occur in our languages. Apparently you learned Arabic the way a hundred generations of Jews learned Hebrew, without getting the sounds right. But at least you have an excuse since you're not an Arab. :)

It's way back there in the place where Scandinavians, northern French, northern Germans and Cariocas make their gargled R. Except that sound is uvular (made with the uvula) and GH is even farther back than that, made with the glottis.

A glottal stop is the sound that Cockneys make when they pronounce water as wa'er. A glottal fricative is made the same way except the air passage is not completely closed. The difference between S and T.

I know the Indic langues don't have these phonemes either, but I don't know whether the language from your province is Indic or Dravidian. And in any case I don't know anything about Dravidian phonetics.

[S.A.M.]

Ah, as in Maqh'reb? Like Qatar?

[CheskiChips]

Ah, as in Maqh'reb? Like Qatar?

No, I think it has to be between two vowels.

Ma-ariv.

[S.A.M.]

Its how qaaf ق and ghain غ are pronounced in Arabic.

[CheskiChips]

Its how qaaf ك قand ghain غ are pronounced in Arabic.

Those two seem more likely.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Ah, as in Maqh'reb? Like Qatar?Yes. The phoneme transliterated as GH is a glottal fricative: air is restricted by a partially closed glottis. The one transliterated as Q is a glottal stop: air is stopped by a completely closed glottis.

We can see from these examples that they do not have to come between two vowels; being adjacent to one is sufficient. It's physiologically possible for GH to come between two consonants like any fricative (e.g. the S in extra, "ekstra," is surrounded by three of them and we could probably find an even bigger cluster in Czech), but I don't know if it actually occurs in that position in Arabic.

Since I can barely pronounce the glottal stop Q at all, I have no idea whether it's physiologically possible for it to come between two consonants and if so whether it actually occurs in that position in Arabic.

In classical Hebrew both of these consonants occurred only adjacent to one vowel, and my limited vocabulary suggests that they could only occur between two vowels or at the beginning or end of a word.

In Hebrew the glottal stop is transcribed by the letter aleph, which would be spelled qalef in today's Arabic romanization. The glottal fricative is the letter ayin, which would now be spelled ghayin. Both sounds have been lost in modern Israeli Hebrew and both letters are silent. In Yiddish aleph is used with two subscripts to write A and O, since the Hebrew "alphabet" is really an abjad with no vowels, and ayin is used for E. Yodh is used for I and waw for U, so in Yiddish it has become a true alphabet.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Its how qaaf ق and ghain غ are pronounced in Arabic.I see, I didn't read far enough. They're not glottal consonants but uvular. The same letters with the same names as Hebrew qoph and ayin, which should be spelled ghayin. Never having heard classical Hebrew spoken by a linguist with an authentic pronunciation, I got ayin wrong, but aleph is indeed a glottal stop and is customarily romanized as an apostrophe, so the name of the letter should be 'alef.

I assume Arabic alif is also a glottal stop, or is it silent in the modern language?

[Steve100]

I say it "is-rail "

As in...

Is it a hand rail?

[S.A.M.]

I see, I didn't read far enough. They're not glottal consonants but uvular. The same letters with the same names as Hebrew qoph and ayin, which should be spelled ghayin. Never having heard classical Hebrew spoken by a linguist with an authentic pronunciation, I got ayin wrong, but aleph is indeed a glottal stop and is customarily romanized as an apostrophe, so the name of the letter should be 'alef.

I assume Arabic alif is also a glottal stop, or is it silent in the modern language?

aleph is pronounced as "a" in "bad"; sometimes it is pronounced like the "a" in "father"

[nietzschefan]

I thought, Israel literally meant "Wrestles with God"? Who translates it "Stuggles"?

[S.A.M.]

I thought, Israel literally meant "Wrestles with God"? Who translates it "Stuggles"?

According to some archaelogists (http://www.mytown.ca/ev.php?URL_ID=118447&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201), Israel was most probably the name of an existing tribe that was adopted by the Hebrews. The Hebrew words are sara http://www.abarim-publications.com/Bible_Commentary/plaatjes/2287.GIF and El http://www.abarim-publications.com/Bible_Commentary/plaatjes/93a.GIF. The origin of sara is a mystery, in Arabic it is struggle but there is another word sarar in Hebrew which means reign. so its either the Struggle of El or Reign of El.

[nietzschefan]

But the person "Israel", literally wrestled with God.

[S.A.M.]

Who is that?

[nietzschefan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

[S.A.M.]

Ah Yaqub is Israel in Hebrew? Thats interesting.

[CutsieMarie89]

The traditional English pronunciation was three syllables: IZ-ray-ell, with a long A. The third syllable was absorbed and it became IZ-rail, which is the way I heard it pronounced by Americans in the 1950s. I suspect the Brits had done the same thing, since the tendency to eliminate syllables is much stronger in British dialect than for us slow-talking Americans.

Really? I rarely hear anyone say Iz-rail either. Maybe its just where I'm from in the US, but most of the people here including myself say Is-real.

[Steve100]

It seems very odd to say is-real.

[CutsieMarie89]

It seems very odd to say is-real.

It seems even odder to say Is-rail.:p Maybe rail some how transformed to real because of the lazy speech that people in the western united states posses? I don't know. I've just heard that Westerners had lazy speech, even more so than other Americans, but I've never gone around comparing.

[Ghost_007]

Really? I rarely hear anyone say Iz-rail either. Maybe its just where I'm from in the US, but most of the people here including myself say Is-real.


In the UK we pronounce it as 'Is-rail' (rail as in railway), as Steve was saying.

Americans say Is-real.

Pronounced Is-raa-eel by Arabs. The English speaking Israeli politicians, from what I've heard pronounce it as Is-real.

[CheskiChips]

I gave the answer here: http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2008852&postcount=8

What's the debate?


Yakov = Jacob.
Jacob was given the title Yisrael similar to how Abram was given the name Abraham. The gematria and the very words change meaning.

[BlueMoose]

It goes much deeper what I have been reading, dont know about the pronounce things,
but --> Is-ra-el --> Is(is) - Ra - El

[John99]

Iz - Reel

[tim840]

Most people around here (CA) pronounce it "iz-ree-ull" kinda like that

[CheskiChips]

It goes much deeper what I have been reading, dont know about the pronounce things,
but --> Is-ra-el --> Is(is) - Ra - El
Too much :m::m: ehh?
That's great bloomoose. Except...
"Yis" not "Is"
"Wa" not "ra"
"Ayil" not "el"

So other than all three components of your bogus theory being wrong, that you most likely got from Esoteric Agenda...you were basically right. :crazy:

[BlueMoose]

Too much :m: ehh?
That's great bloomoose. Except...
"Yis" not "Is"
"Wa" not "ra"
"Ayil" not "el"

So other than all three components of your bogus theory being wrong, that you most likely got from Esoteric Agenda...you were basically right. :crazy:

Yeah, Too much weed, yeah, thats it, yeah, whatever....Cheeeeeeskizip :p

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen13.html

[CheskiChips]

Judaism=Zionism=Judaism

* * * * NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR * * * *

I have deleted all off-topic posts including flaming, personal insults and religious and political controversy.

I have left this one (which I edited) because by posting an incorrect definition of a word it raises a linguistic issue, to which I shall respond.

Please do not respond to this post EXCEPT to make on-topic, linguistic comments.

Thank you, -- F.R.

[w1z4rd]

South Africans pronounce the word kinda like "Is-ray-el" ...but the ray-el come very quickly after each other, so it can often sound like "iz-rayel"

[Fraggle Rocker]

Judaism=Zionism=Judaism* * * * NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR * * * *

I have cleaned up this thread and deleted the train of off-topic remarks, insults, flaming, and religious and political controversy. However, I left this one post (edited) because it includes an incorrect definition of at least one word, and therefore raises a valid linguistic issue to which I will respond.

Please do not respond to the quoted post EXCEPT to offer on-topic, linguistic comments.

Thanks -- F.R.

This is incorrect. Judaism is the oldest of the three Abrahamic religions, from which the others are more-or-less descended. It established the fundamental mythology upon which they are all based, including monotheism and the status of Abraham as a patriarch and Moses as a prophet.

Zionism, on the other hand, is a modern, largely secular political movement. The Wikipedia article is accurate:Zionism is an international political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra'el, “the Land of Israel”), and continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.

Although its origins are earlier, the movement was formally established by the Austro-Hungarian journalist Theodor Herzl in the late 19th century. The movement seeks to encourage Jewish migration to the Promised Land and was eventually successful in establishing Israel in 1948, as the world's first and only modern Jewish State. [Its proponents have] described [it] as a "diaspora nationalism". . . .

While Zionism is based in part upon religious tradition linking the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, where the concept of Jewish nationhood first evolved somewhere between 1200 BCE and the late Second Temple era (i.e. up to 70 CE), the modern movement was mainly secular, beginning largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe. It constituted a branch of the broader phenomenon of modern nationalism. At first one of several Jewish political movements offering alternative responses to the position of Jews in Europe, Zionism gradually gained more support, and after the Holocaust became the dominant Jewish political movement.Note that the article acknowledges and briefly explores the ancient roots of the movement. However, as it says, for all practical purposes Zionism is a modern movement and not an especially religious one. Few modern people, even those who argue over Zionism as a political issue, regardless of their position on it, are more than dimly aware of that history. After WWII Zionism became identified exclusively as a response to the Holocaust by almost everyone except historians, Jewish scholars, and the unfortunate Muslims whose land was appropriated by the British to create the state of Israel because the Europeans were willing to do anything to atone for a thousand years of antisemitism... except let the Jews return to live among them again. [Hey I'm the Moderator so I get to make political comments.]

[Mr.Spock]

* * * * NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR * * * *

I have cleaned up this thread and deleted the train of off-topic remarks, insults, flaming, and religious and political controversy. However, I left this one post (edited) because it includes an incorrect definition of at least one word, and therefore raises a valid linguistic issue to which I will respond.

Please do not respond to the quoted post EXCEPT to offer on-topic, linguistic comments.

Thanks -- F.R.

This is incorrect. Judaism is the oldest of the three Abrahamic religions, from which the others are more-or-less descended. It established the fundamental mythology upon which they are all based, including monotheism and the status of Abraham as a patriarch and Moses as a prophet.

Zionism, on the other hand, is a modern, largely secular political movement. The Wikipedia article is accurate:Note that the article acknowledges and briefly explores the ancient roots of the movement. However, as it says, for all practical purposes Zionism is a modern movement and not an especially religious one. Few modern people, even those who argue over Zionism as a political issue, regardless of their position on it, are more than dimly aware of that history. After WWII Zionism became identified exclusively as a response to the Holocaust by almost everyone except historians, Jewish scholars, and the unfortunate Muslims whose land was appropriated by the British to create the state of Israel because the Europeans were willing to do anything to atone for a thousand years of antisemitism... except let the Jews return to live among them again. [Hey I'm the Moderator so I get to make political comments.]

that is a misconception, the british didnt give the jews a land that belonged to the muslism. they have actually supported the muslims, and they have hide the fact that the majority of the muslism were immigrants themselves. that being said, the land in question didnt belonged to anyone. as much as they claim it to be, they did not establish here anything in a span of more then a 1000 years.

it is evident from the fact that they do not have any traditions regarding the land. until this day, other then claiming the jews stole our land, they have nothing spiritual to offer in favor of that land. there are only two things that tie them to isarel, one is the al qasa mosque, the other is hatred towered jews.

as for zionism, its not exactly secular. its roots and influence comes from judaisim, it is more of a clever way to adapt judaisim to the spirit of the time using nationalistic sentiments.

it is important to note that the remaining survivors of WWII were destined to be shipped to russia. for werent for israel and zionism and the US who knows what their faith would be.

[Norsefire]

Actually, although I voted for the second, it isn't "Iss" it's "Ss-raa-eel". You begin on the S, in Arabic at least.