Conflict

[Reiku]

I am having a heathly argument with Witnesses from my home desolate town. Here is my following evidence of hell, on the boundary of being a real place to that which is nothing but a metaphor.

Hence... they do not believe in hell. Here is my report:

Hell is possibly a metaphor, or of a subject with deep misunderstanding, whereas it can mean purification of the soul, and quite possibly purification after death. There is some evidence however, that suggests hell is a real place, a spiritual jail. But consequently, hell is spoken about in the bible, and even given a specific blueprint of where it is, and what it is like.

In the New Testament, hell is spoken about by Jesus as being a pit of fire, where the wicked dwell. If we concentrate on this, we can come to understand that hell (whatever vision we desire to make of it), was created for unclean beings.

Hell was originally created for the Angels of God

'God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment' (2 Peter. 2:4).

So hell was created for the fallen angels of heaven.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41

There where a larger number of fallen angels than there was angels who remained faithful to God (this can be found in revelation where a sixth of the stars fell from heaven). In Biblical terms, when we take about ‘’stars’’ in a prophecy, we talk about Angels. It says in the above passage, that these angels where reserved for Gods judgment, cast [[down]] into hell, chained in darkness.

This passage speaks of hell as being a dark place, and reserved until a judgment, where there is no mention of a ‘’chasm of fire.’’ This next passage also speaks of a dark location for hell, referring yet again to the Angels of Satan:

'The angles who did not keep their proper domain but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day' (Jude 6)."

It may be interesting to note, that God never says in the Bible that he loves his angels. Nowhere, no script even hints at the fact that God loves his angels, or moreover, loves them more than us. As far as we can tell, God loves us more than the Angels, if he loves the Angels at all. This may give a precedence of what and who hell is for.

Hell is a place?

According to how Jesus described hell, it seems as though he spoke about it as an alternative to heaven:

'If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into that fire that shall never be quenched; where their worn does not die and the fire is not quenched' (Mk. 9:43-49)."

So it is very easy to believe, that when one speaks in this context, it seems to be a real place, resultant from real and sinful factors of life.

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matthew 5:29

The story of Lazarus would certainly indicate it’s a real place, by feeling its effects:

'And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said... I am tormented in this flame' (Luke 16:23-23).

Now, some will say that these passages are ‘’parables,’’ and do not relate normally to life as real life stories, but only stories of wisdom, which may be very true. One link is that hell is a place of thirst, where beings are tormented for the thirst of water under extreme heat.

Water is very symbolic in the Bible, and usually, is related to knowing God, and understanding his word. Hence, we often say, there is a ‘’thirst for the word.’’ Hell could be a metaphor for such a thirst. When we die, there will be a division, because evil cannot exist in the presence of God. This division may be the separation of souls chosen to live eternally with God, who have [[no thirst]]. Hence, being with God, is heaven alone, whilst those who are not will have an eternal thirst, and those who are said to exist in hell. It may have nothing to do with a literal fire or a bottomless pit, or dungeons.

Since dungeons are a representation of jail, and since we are bound by sin, this sin may be seen in light of hell itself, so many can come to adopt the notion that we are living hell right now. Only upon death, are these chains released, or only upon a resolution that you have a relationship with God.

Hell is Never Full..

And through scripture, we learn that if hell is a real place, it is never full, despite the overgrowing evil that seems to far outweigh the level of Good. Here we need to be careful, because even though there is more evil in this world, the Good of the Lord outweighs even that.

Even if Hell is never full, it certainly has increased with volume for some countable size:

An interesting verse is Isaiah 5:14, which says, "Therefore HELL HATH ENLARGED HERSELF, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."

Is Hell a Metaphor for Gods Anger?

There is strong evidence that hell, the place of fire is actually representing Gods anger.

Deuteronomy 32:22 says, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and SHALL BURN UNTO THE LOWEST HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

Hell is certainly given a place that seems to be ‘’under the earth.’’ Geometrically, we can say this is the center of the earth. Not much speculation must be made, since the Bible has been seen to scripture that hell is in the center of the earth:

And another passage explains:

Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”

[Cris]

Hell is certainly given a place that seems to be ‘’under the earth.’’ Geometrically, we can say this is the center of the earth. Not much speculation must be made, since the Bible has been seen to scripture that hell is in the center of the earth:Remember than when these scriptures were written the Earth was considered flat. So "under the earth" is what was meant and not the center, which implies a sphere - they had no concept of that at the time.

[CheskiChips]

Remember than when these scriptures were written the Earth was considered flat. So "under the earth" is what was meant and not the center, which implies a sphere - they had no concept of that at the time.

In Hebrew the transliterated word for Earth is 'Eretz'. The root of the word is 'retz' which means to move quickly. Therefore they in fact did have knowledge that the Earth was in motion.

[CheskiChips]

Deuteronomy 32:22 says, "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and SHALL BURN UNTO THE LOWEST HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."

In this verse it's referring to יַקְנִאֻהוּ, בְּזָרִים; {ר} בְּתוֹעֵבֹת, יַכְעִיסֻהוּ. {ס
Idol Worshiping. 16 through 21 is talking about how they were acting poorly and the consequences of what they're doing will result in.
22:

כב כִּי-אֵשׁ קָדְחָה בְאַפִּי, {ר} וַתִּיקַד עַד-שְׁאוֹל תַּחְתִּית; {ס} וַתֹּאכַל אֶרֶץ וִיבֻלָהּ, {ר} וַתְּלַהֵט מוֹסְדֵי הָרִים. {ס}

22 For a fire is kindled in My nostril, and burneth unto the depths of the nether-world, and devoureth the earth with her produce, and setteth ablaze the foundations of the mountains.

As you can see, there's no reference to hell here, it never says "Gehenna" in this verse. Rather that the earth will not give produce.



Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”
He's talking about the Earth and his specific curses. And how strange it is that a sapphire can be created on the earth with fire, but the same thing comes from the earth without fire. In a sense he was trying to reconcile evil with the goodness of a God/

[Medicine*Woman]

I am having a heathly argument with Witnesses from my home desolate town. Here is my following evidence of hell, on the boundary of being a real place to that which is nothing but a metaphor.
*************
M*W: I can see that you have given the concept of hell a lot of thought. I also think you are right in that hell is simply a metaphor. What its metaphor is, I will get into later.
Hence... they do not believe in hell. Here is my report:

Hell is possibly a metaphor, or of a subject with deep misunderstanding, whereas it can mean purification of the soul, and quite possibly purification after death. There is some evidence however, that suggests hell is a real place, a spiritual jail. But consequently, hell is spoken about in the bible, and even given a specific blueprint of where it is, and what it is like.
*************
M*W: I believe hell refers to a real place such as Earth. Earth has both light and darkness. I believe it refers to nighttime which the ancients believed to be evil and ruled by the moon and stars.
In the New Testament, hell is spoken about by Jesus as being a pit of fire, where the wicked dwell. If we concentrate on this, we can come to understand that hell (whatever vision we desire to make of it), was created for unclean beings.
*************
M*W: In this metaphor, hell refers to the feared and awed sun, center of the universe. It also refers to the Lake of Fire. Just imagine trying to look at the sun during the daylight hours. It can literally burn your eyes and face. Don't try this at home. The sun does appear as a Lake of Fire, and as I understand it, all evil people go there and burn.

Interestingly, Jesus allegedly "speaks" about the "pit of fire." Not only does this reflect the burning sun of the day, it also references Jesus, himself, fictional or not. Jesus is the sun and he is called the "son of man."

Imagine if an ancient human being looked directly at the sun for a period of time, his face would be charred and he would be blinded... certainly a case of uncleanness if he's harmed like that. (It's the same old theory of dunking an alleged witch...).
Hell was originally created for the Angels of God
*************
M*W: This is an interesting concept. Hell (the sun, the Lake of Fire) was originally created for the "Angels of God," or the "stars!" The sun is also a star. Metaphorically, this makes much sense.
'God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment' (2 Peter. 2:4).
*************
M*W: Now, we're talking about shooting stars, meteors, asteroids, and other "heavenly bodies" who fall to the Earth, to the darkness, even to "hell."
So hell was created for the fallen angels of heaven.
*************
M*W: Same metaphor, falling angels, stars, meteors, asteroids, comets, other heavenly bodies that fall to the darkness of the Earth.
"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" Matthew 25:41
*************
M*W: The "left hand" refers to the negative. The "right hand" refers to the positive. So, in this phrase, the "left hand" is cursed (or negative). The "devil" refers to the Morningstar or the Devil, and "his angels" refer to the stars in the sky. Venus, or the Morningstar, rises with the sun/son. Venus competes with the Sun for the worship of the angels (stars). Have I lost you yet?
There where a larger number of fallen angels than there was angels who remained faithful to God (this can be found in revelation where a sixth of the stars fell from heaven). In Biblical terms, when we take about ‘’stars’’ in a prophecy, we talk about Angels.
*************
M*W: This is metaphorically correct. The "fallen angels" are the ones who "fall" to Earth. The "faithful angels" are the ones who remain in their place in the "heavens."
It says in the above passage, that these angels were reserved for Gods judgment, cast [[down]] into hell, chained in darkness.
*************
M*W: Yes, those evil darn stars (uh, angels)! God, the "sun" and the "son" threw the bastard stars out of heaven, and they fell to Earth's darkness. Stars appear when it's dark at night.
This passage speaks of hell as being a dark place, and reserved until a judgment, where there is no mention of a ‘’chasm of fire.’’
*************
M*W: "Hell" refers to Earth, and possibly, under the Earth as in 'the ground,' as in 'buried,' as in 'sinning,' as in the place of 'Sheol,' the 'underworld,' the place of darkness and evil.
This next passage also speaks of a dark location for hell, referring yet again to the Angels of Satan: 'The angels who did not keep their proper domain but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day' (Jude)."
*************
M*W: Where do stars go when they fall? Some may burn up before they hit Earth. Some may actually dive into Earth as craters would tell. These angels (stars) left their places in the heavens and fell to Earth where darkness reigns at night. Darkness refers to "sin," "sinners," and "sinning." Only those who live on Planet Earth can experience darkness (as far as we know right now). Let's let NASA define that for us, okay?
It may be interesting to note, that God never says in the Bible that he loves his angels. Nowhere, no script even hints at the fact that God loves his angels, or moreover, loves them more than us. As far as we can tell, God loves us more than the Angels, if he loves the Angels at all. This may give a precedence of what and who hell is for.
*************
M*W: I find this comment to be valuable in the study of astro-theology. God (the sun) and his angels (stars) are not capable of the emotions of love. I don't believe this has anything to do with a belief of "hell," "darkness," "evil," nor "death."
Hell is a place? According to how Jesus described hell, it seems as though he spoke about it as an alternative to heaven: 'If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into that fire that shall never be quenched; where their worn does not die and the fire is not quenched' (Mk. 9:43-49)."
*************
M*W: There is always that concept of duality. Good and Evil.
So it is very easy to believe, that when one speaks in this context, it seems to be a real place, resultant from real and sinful factors of life.
*************
M*W: Hell does seem to be a real place (metaphorically)! It's a metaphorical way of controlling the masses with what they are programmed to believe. Literally, however, hell is just a metaphor that is waiting for fools to believe!
"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matthew 5:29
*************
M*W: I believe this quote is referring to the metaphor of the stars (angels). If thy "right eye" offends thee, pluck it out and cast it down to the Earth. Thy "right eye" refers to the stars. We can only visualize the stars with the eyes. Right is good. Left is bad. If the good eye is offended by a star being 'thrown down' to the Earth, then pluck it out. To observe such evil deed is sinful!
The story of Lazarus would certainly indicate it’s a real place, by feeling its effects: 'And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said... I am tormented in this flame' (Luke 16:23-23).
*************
M*W: Another interested biblical passage! Lazarus or 'Eleazer' who has obviously been sent to the underworld (the dark side of Earth) refers to this place as being a torment, or a place of 'death.' Yet, Lazarus "lifted up his eyes" and saw "Abraham" (the Sign of Aries, the Ram) a far off in the 'heavens' and Lazarus was there in the Sign of Aries as well. Lazarus then "cried" and stated metaphorically that he was (in the daytime) 'tormented' by the Sun! The 'sun' refers to 'god' as well as to 'Jesus.' The planet Venus also rises with the Sun. Venus was the Morningstar that was an adversary of Jesus, the Sun/Son!
Now, some will say that these passages are ‘’parables,’’ and do not relate normally to life as real life stories, but only stories of wisdom, which may be very true. One link is that hell is a place of thirst, where beings are tormented for the thirst of water under extreme heat.
*************
M*W: I think you are correct. These stories are 'parables' and not literal translations of the biblical passages of same. Of course, there is 'thirst' where there is 'darkness' and 'ignorance' as in 'thirst for the truth.'
Water is very symbolic in the Bible, and usually, is related to knowing God, and understanding his word. Hence, we often say, there is a ‘’thirst for the word.’’
*************
M*W: Yes, water is symbolic in the bible. After all, Aquarius was the 'water bearer,' and Pisces refers to 'fish' in the water. Cancer refers to
'the Crab,' which is a waterborne creature. John the Baptist is an anthropomorphication of the Sign of Aquarius. JtB was the baptizer of water in the name of Jesus... in the name of the Sun! The sun shining down on the waters created all life on the Earth. It's all symbolic!
Hell could be a metaphor for such a thirst. When we die, there will be a division, because evil cannot exist in the presence of God. This division may be the separation of souls chosen to live eternally with God, who have [[no thirst]]. Hence, being with God, is heaven alone, whilst those who are not will have an eternal thirst, and those who are said to exist in hell. It may have nothing to do with a literal fire or a bottomless pit, or dungeons.
*************
M*W: Yes, you are right again, 'hell' is a metaphor for the human need of 'thirst.'

Darkness cannot be present when the sun is out! It's that simple! Darkness is governed by the moon--oftentimes referred to as the controller of all females. Our menstrual cycles are governed by the moon. Our birthing cycles are often regulated by the phases of the moon. The moon is the goddess of fertility. Women bleed, but they don't die.

Being 'with god' is only a metaphor. Being 'with god' only occurs during the daylight hours. Being in evil or darkness occurs at night while the angels, planets and constellations guard our lives.

Being 'with god' only happens in sunlight. Being in darkness happens when the moon is out.
Since dungeons are a representation of jail, and since we are bound by sin, this sin may be seen in light of hell itself, so many can come to adopt the notion that we are living hell right now. Only upon death, are these chains released, or only upon a resolution that you have a relationship with God.
*************
M*W: I think you understand the point I'm trying to make. 'Dungeons, darkness, evil and sin, only occur in the nighttime. It may be a true metaphor that we are all living in 'hell' right now. We still experience the darkness of night. However, now we know that darkness isn't really evil. Darkness doesn't represent sin. Darkness has its place in our lives. It's not someplace we go to, it's part of our existence, and it's always there 'calling us' to the pleasures of night.

Having a relationship with 'god' means we are more active in the daylight hours. It means that we work in an agrarian society to produce food for our families. It means that we have an understanding of the principles that we should follow as human beings. It means that we are not 'alone.' The sun (son) is always with us, even to the ends of the Earth.
Hell is Never Full..
*************
M*W: Hell can never be 'full.' And 'heaven' will never be 'empty.' Hell is the sweat on one's brow. It's the prison of one's desire. The sun is the god of the universe. The sun is all we dare worship. Any idol other than the sun is a futile god.
And through scripture, we learn that if hell is a real place, it is never full, despite the overgrowing evil that seems to far outweigh the level of Good. Here we need to be careful, because even though there is more evil in this world, the Good of the Lord outweighs even that.
*************
M*W: The only evil in this world is the darkness of night... the evil of sin... sin only refers to the 'moon.' Therefore, there is really no evil in this world... and there is no 'hell' in this world. It's only an imaginary location for people who don't understand the reality of life on Earth.
Even if Hell is never full, it certainly has increased with volume for some countable size: An interesting verse is Isaiah 5:14, which says, "Therefore HELL HATH ENLARGED HERSELF, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."
*************
M*W: IOW, hell is the womb of the Earth.
Is Hell a Metaphor for Gods Anger?
*************
M*W: No, I don't believe that 'hell' is a metaphor for 'god's anger.' How can the sun/son feel the emotion of 'anger?' It can't! 'Hell' is a metaphor for nighttime, darkness and sin. IOW, 'hell' doesn't really exist but only in the minds of ancient humans who couldn't explain shit from shinola!
There is strong evidence that hell, the place of fire is actually representing Gods anger.
*************
M*W: Again, I don't think so, but I do appreciate your thoughts on this subject.
Deuteronomy 32:22 says,"For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and SHALL BURN UNTO THE LOWEST HELL, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
*************
M*W: Well, literally speaking, the sun (son) could burn down the mountains quite easily. It's already been said that a bush ignited into fire when Moses was looking at it. The 'lowest hell' only means the darkness of Earth... nothing else. There is no real hell of a place, just like there is no god in the heavens except for the sun! Things aren't as complicated as human beings would like to believe.
Hell is certainly given a place that seems to be ‘’under the earth.’’ Geometrically, we can say this is the center of the earth. Not much speculation must be made, since the Bible has been seen to scripture that hell is in the center of the earth:
And another passage explains:
Job 28:5 says, “As for the earth, out of it cometh bread: and UNDER IT IS TURNED UP AS IT WERE FIRE.”
*************
M*W: The buzz words are "out of it cometh bread...". What that means is man toils by the sun (the agrarian society) who grows wheat to make bread by the sweat of man's brow. But, then again, we are talking about the Sign of Virgo who holds a sheath of wheat in her hand symbolizing bread. Also, did you know that the town of Bethlehem means "the house of bread." Surely you know that Jesus was referred to in the Eucharist as the "body and blood," or the "bread and wine." Remember where Jesus was told by his mother Mary to get more wine for the Wedding in Cana? Of course, Jesus (the sun) turned the jugs of water into the finest wine. That can only happen when the sun shines down on the grapevines and turn the rain into wine.

Nothing is literal. Everything is allegorical. Man made religions based on the allegorical so he would have something to believe in.

I really appreciated your post! Thanks, ~ M*W

[nietzschefan]

Funny thing about that story of Lazerus - it doesn't make much sense without the book of Enoch(which is not canon for pretty much every Christian), which is using the original word of Sheol to describe the afterlife.

It was divided into 4 parts. One where the faithful saints blissfully await Judgment Day in Bosom of Abraham, one where the moderately good await their reward, one where the wicked are punished and await their Judgment at the resurrection (Gehenna), and the last where the wicked who don't even warrant resurrection are tormented.

"Hell" is the modern translation for all kinds of words over the 1000s of years this spooky story has been told. Before it was "Hell" (a Norse God, or formulation of many pagan gods) it was Hades or Gehenna(Greek) and Sheol(Hebrew). See how shit gets lost in translation.

Never mind translation, try telling a bullshit story ear-to-ear and alternatively ear-to-brain(human)-to-tablet-to-ear-to paprus to ear to brain to book and see what gets changed after 6000 years of this.

"Hell" is really just a mix of nasty spooky stories from all the way back 6000 years ago and probably beyond that too. Most of the concepts that have survived, are not much changed from Zoroastrian beginnings and Egyptian Underworld beliefs.

Even the "devil" is a concept stolen from at least 3 different characters from just counting Hebrew mythology.

[Reiku]

Remember than when these scriptures were written the Earth was considered flat. So "under the earth" is what was meant and not the center, which implies a sphere - they had no concept of that at the time.


Myt friend, all evidence seems to show logically, that if a single script says that hell is CERTAINLY IN THE center then so hell is. Surely the theo-drivin value of it is obvious.

If you disagreeplease show me biblical evidence it is not.

*************
M*W: I can see that you have given the concept of hell a lot of thought. I also think you are right in that hell is simply a metaphor. What its metaphor is, I will get into later.


Healthy thought? SOME would say i have incontrivertible proof.

WAIT!

ALL of you have misunderstood this.
MW Medicine Woman is the closest, but her theology is mistaken by overzealous teachings. I proclaim she is the most right, but she neglects the greater part of evidence to that of renormalization of scripture.

MW --- Let us speak more.

Funny thing about that story of Lazerus - it doesn't make much sense without the book of Enoch(which is not canon for pretty much every Christian), which is using the original word of Sheol to describe the afterlife.

Funny, and ironic. I will reveal in a couple of days why this is so.

[nietzschefan]

No I didn't.

You took this story and said ...wait! they do have it right...yeah fire in the centre of the earth(isn't it a big compressed iron slug?) and have attached new significance to this bullshit story. In fact we shall call your new insights and profound prophetic thought the Prophesy of Reiku! Within 100 years people all over the internets will be followers of Reikuism and want to lead a "good" life to escape this Hell. I'm on to you and your true motives.

[CheskiChips]

Myt friend, all evidence seems to show logically, that if a single script says that hell is CERTAINLY IN THE center then so hell is. Surely the theo-drivin value of it is obvious.

If you disagreeplease show me biblical evidence it is not.




Healthy thought? SOME would say i have incontrivertible proof.

WAIT!

ALL of you have misunderstood this.
MW Medicine Woman is the closest, but her theology is mistaken by overzealous teachings. I proclaim she is the most right, but she neglects the greater part of evidence to that of renormalization of scripture.

MW --- Let us speak more.



Funny, and ironic. I will reveal in a couple of days why this is so.

Reiku I quoted directly from Tanakh...and I showed you that at least the 'Old Testament' excerpts you provided weren't discussing hell at all. If you disagree with my interpretations, okay. But don't act as if I misunderstood your presumptions. The view I gave you was completely normalized within the 'Old Testament', perhaps it wasn't normalized with the Christian bible. If you're going to disregard it fine, but I gave you a response. Don't act as if no one as provided you with rebuttal.

[Reiku]

No I didn't.

You took this story and said ...wait! they do have it right...yeah fire in the centre of the earth(isn't it a big compressed iron slug?) and have attached new significance to this bullshit story. In fact we shall call your new insights and profound prophetic thought the Prophesy of Reiku! Within 100 years people all over the internets will be followers of Reikuism and want to lead a "good" life to escape this Hell. I'm on to you and your true motives.

How wrong we both think of each other. Perhaps with natural conclusion of scripture, we can go beyond the natural state of man. Never mind how delusional one can be, to one';s motives of a relegion which existed before even our own births, unless you are the next moses, in which i give great hail.

[Reiku]

Reiku I quoted directly from Tanakh...and I showed you that at least the 'Old Testament' excerpts you provided weren't discussing hell at all. If you disagree with my interpretations, okay. But don't act as if I misunderstood your presumptions. The view I gave you was completely normalized within the 'Old Testament', perhaps it wasn't normalized with the Christian bible. If you're going to disregard it fine, but I gave you a response. Don't act as if no one as provided you with rebuttal.


I don't know which bible you where reading from, but i do not hold it against you. At least several different bibles translate in orders unique.

[CheskiChips]

I don't know which bible you where reading from, but i do not hold it against you. At least several different bibles translate in orders unique.

I was reading from the original Hebrew. So you can't hold it against me even if you wanted to.

Yours is the translation; mine is the original. Therefore any differences are a result of your inaccuracy not mine. The Christian bible was molded to fit the opinions of the popes, the Hebrew Tanakh was never changed. Can you admit it possible that the Christian translators were agenda driven? Perhaps to make the 'Old Testament' fit the New? Because without alteration...they wouldn't.

[JesseLeigh]

Evening!

Couple of points.

1. Hell (Sheol in Hebrew - Hades in Greek) is simply the common grave of all mankind. I think you're confusing it with the Lake of Fire, which I'll explain further in a moment.

2. The Bible tells us 'The wages for sin is death.' Please note that it says 'Death,' not torture. The concept of burning forever, being burned mercilessly in an 'Unquenchable fire' is not a Biblical concept at all. It works for fearmongers who'd rather preach fear than Love, but nobody is going to burn forever in anything God created. If eternal *torture* awaited unrepentant sinners then Christ (Who's propitiatory sacrificial death on the cross paid for the sins of all mankind) would still be on the cross. He isn't.

3. The Lake of Fire (Gehenna in Greek) AKA 'The second death,' (meaning the final or eternal punishment - an everlasting cutting off from God's Kingdom) was 'Created for the devil and his angels.' This fire (metaphorical or otherwise) *does* burn 'Forever' and everything that is thrown into it is *destroyed.* Think though, 'Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire.' Death isn't a material phenomenon subject to physical burning and neither is Hades. Neither then are those resurrected souls (people are resurrected in spirit and don't have physical bodies that *could* burn) who remain unrepentant going to burn forever. 'Their portion is in the Lake of Fire' (the second death), meaning they'll be destroyed (subject to death) a second time - a final time. These will be people who don't WANT to be in God's Kingdom.

4. Mankind (or humankind) was given the gift of choice and told to 'Choose wisely.' We have always had limited free will and are counseled to 'Choose life' many times in the Bible. Yeshua said 'I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to The Father but by Me.' To choose Life is to choose Christ. Simple.

5. God *is* Love, and the actions of Love are restorative whenever possible, not punitive. God said 'I desire that *none* should be destroyed but that *all* should *attain to* repentance.' Yahweh says it Himself - He doesn't want to destroy anyone.

God didn't want to send the flood either, but people wouldn't listen to Him. Noah spent seventy years *pleading* with people to listen and mend their ways, and only fifty years building the ark. Think about that. While you're at it, please consider the Ten Commandments. The first four deal with what God wants us to render to HIM, but the other six are what we are to render to each other. To me, that speaks volumes about the Character of Yahweh.

Yahweh is our Father and He loves us. He tells us that we love Him because He first loved us. The Bible also tells us 'For God so loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son, so that everyone *exercising* faith in Him might *not* be destroyed, but have everlasting life.'

Does this sound like a tyrannical, sadistic God to you? A Creator who loved His Creation so much that He gave His Own and Only Son to pay the price for our sins? (Remember, the wages for sin = death.) Don't you think it is inconsistent with everything we know about our Father to suppose for one moment that He would torture anyone for any length of time, let alone eternity?

Eternal torment is a lie made up by power-hungry men. It has nothing to do with God or our Lord Jesus Christ, and you won't find support for it in any Bible.

Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.

[nietzschefan]

Christianity as antiquity.-- When we hear the ancient bells growling on a Sunday morning we ask ourselves: Is it really possible! This, for a jew, crucified two thousand years ago, who said he was God's son? The proof of such a claim is lacking. Certainly the Christian religion is an antiquity projected into our times from remote prehistory; and the fact that the claim is believed - whereas one is otherwise so strict in examining pretensions - is perhaps the most ancient piece of this heritage. A god who begets children with a mortal woman; a sage who bids men work no more, have no more courts, but look for the signs of the impending end of the world; a justice that accepts the innocent as a vicarious sacrifice; someone who orders his disciples to drink his blood; prayers for miraculous interventions; sins perpetrated against a god, atoned for by a god; fear of a beyond to which death is the portal; the form of the cross as a symbol in a time that no longer knows the function and ignominy of the cross -- how ghoulishly all this touches us, as if from the tomb of a primeval past! Can one believe that such things are still believed?

from Nietzsche's Human, all too Human, s.405, R.J. Hollingdale transl.

[JesseLeigh]

neitzschefan...

With respect, there's so much you don't understand about the meaning of what you've written that it would take a book to teach you - and I suspect a great deal more than that. Do you have *any* comprehension of the meaning of 'The Body of Christ?" - Jesse.

[nietzschefan]

Eternal torment is a lie made up by power-hungry men. It has nothing to do with God or our Lord Jesus Christ, and you won't find support for it in any Bible.

Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.

Revelation 20:10

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

neitzschefan...

With respect, there's so much you don't understand about the meaning of what you've written that it would take a book to teach you - and I suspect a great deal more than that. Do you have *any* comprehension of the meaning of 'The Body of Christ?" - Jesse.

Don't care - stupid as a tradition is especially foul to me.



God didn't want to send the flood either, but people wouldn't listen to Him. Noah spent seventy years *pleading* with people to listen and mend their ways, and only fifty years building the ark.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/EriduGenesis.jpg/763px-EriduGenesis.jpg

The Eridu Genesis Tablet, Hundreds of years older than even the faintest beginnings of your cult.

After a missing section in the tablet, we learn that the gods have decided to send a flood to destroy mankind. Zi-ud-sura, the king and gudug priest, learns of this. (In the later Akkadian version, Ea, or Enki in Sumerian, the god of the waters, warns the hero (Atra-hasis in this case) and gives him instructions for the ark. This is missing in the Sumerian fragment, but a mention of Enki taking counsel with himself suggests that this is Enki's role in the Sumerian version as well.)

When the tablet resumes it is describing the flood. A terrible storm rocks the huge boat for seven days and seven nights, then Utu (the Sun god) appears and Zi-ud-sura creates an opening in the boat, prostrates himself, and sacrifices oxen and sheep.

After another break the text resumes, the flood is apparently over, the animals disembark and Zi-ud-sura prostrates himself before An (sky-god) and Enlil (chief of the gods), who give him eternal life and take him to dwell in Dilmun for "preserving the animals and the seed of mankind". The remainder of the poem is lost.

[CheskiChips]

3. The Lake of Fire (Gehenna in Greek)

Gehenna is not Greek, it's Hebrew. * גיהנום *


5. God *is* Love, and the actions of Love are restorative whenever possible, not punitive. God said 'I desire that *none* should be destroyed but that *all* should *attain to* repentance.' Yahweh says it Himself - He doesn't want to destroy anyone.

No, not love. Joy. He should be your joy (שימחה) not your love (אהוב)


Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.

What exactly are you? As you in some form of messianic sect? Why say Shalom Aleichem and talk about Yeshki all the time?

[JesseLeigh]

neitzscefan....

You said,

The Eridu Genesis Tablet, Hundreds of years older than even the faintest beginnings of your cult

While the world 'Cult' does not describe The Body of Christ, almost all civilizations have some form of story of the flood. That's one of the most compelling arguments against those who say it didn't happen. Creation stories abound too and they differ little fom one another. In my view, this does more to validate Scripture than make it obsolete. YMMV. - Jesse.

[JesseLeigh]

G'mornign Cheski!

You ask,

What exactly are you? As you in some form of messianic sect? Why say Shalom Aleichem and talk about Yeshki all the time?

I'm simply a disciple of Christ. I guess I spent too much time in the missionary field in the ME and principally Old Jerusalem, so much of it is habit, I suppose.

OTOH, Jesus instructed us to greet every household and person with a wish for their peace - so I do that. :)

I hope this answers your question.

Have a spectacular day, I'm going to bed now.

Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.

[nietzschefan]

neitzscefan....

You said,



While the world 'Cult' does not describe The Body of Christ, almost all civilizations have some form of story of the flood. That's one of the most compelling arguments against those who say it didn't happen. Creation stories abound too and they differ little fom one another. In my view, this does more to validate Scripture than make it obsolete. YMMV. - Jesse.

It's the same story, exactly the same, and it's 2500 years older than your story of Noah. Pretty much, the Hebrews just changed the names. It's a piggy backed religion and Christianity is piggy backed on that, with a healthy dose of paganism thrown in to appease the 300AD Roman Empire, including strange anachronistic customs to eat some stale bread and pretend it's the body of your God.

[Ophiolite]

[QUOTE=Medicine*Woman;2004298]I also think that it is impossible for you to post as many posts per day as you claim. I think there are others who have access to your username who post radical posts on sciforums. There is no possible way you could post all those posts yourself. What kind of game are you playing?This is an interesting claim. I just want to check out the realism of posting 48 posts per day. Not all necessarily one liners, but a mix of one liners and somewhat meatier posts. If you don't mind I am going to target all your posts for this purpose. (Actually I am going to do that whether you mind or not, which should help to simulate the SAM mode.)
Above this is a default post, the items below are new Time:7:24
The rest of your post seems to deal with the allegorical/metaphorical nature of all religious literature. In your exposition you seem to be qccording a lot of respect for these allegories. This is at odds with your normal position, Could you explain.

[CheskiChips]

It's the same story, exactly the same, and it's 2500 years older than your story of Noah. Pretty much, the Hebrews just changed the names. It's a piggy backed religion and Christianity is piggy backed on that, with a healthy dose of paganism thrown in to appease the 300AD Roman Empire, including strange anachronistic customs to eat some stale bread and pretend it's the body of your God.


Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

[nietzschefan]

Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

No. I think she should hear the truth. It's more important.

[nietzschefan]

This is an interesting claim. I just want to check out the realism of posting 48 posts per day. Not all necessarily one liners, but a mix of one liners and somewhat meatier posts. If you don't mind I am going to target all your posts for this purpose. (Actually I am going to do that whether you mind or not, which should help to simulate the SAM mode.)
Above this is a default post, the items below are new Time:7:24
The rest of your post seems to deal with the allegorical/metaphorical nature of all religious literature. In your exposition you seem to be qccording a lot of respect for these allegories. This is at odds with your normal position, Could you explain.

You crack me up lol

[JesseLeigh]

G'morning nietzschefan!

If you don't know Jesus and our Father then you can be excused for not understanding the significance of Christ's mandate to "Do this in remembrance of Me." (Take in the (symbolic) body and blood of Christ.)

The Christian journey culminates in believers being "Transformed into the Image of Christ," and while we're here on Earth we are part of His 'Body,' branches on the 'True Vine.'

"I am the Vine and you are the branches." Jesus Christ.

I never pretend anything, least of all anything to do with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. You speak of a God you do not know and deny His existence because you have not interacted with Him on a personal level. To those of us whom God has revealed Himself, to deny Him is unthinkable - not to mention ridiculous. God would like to meet you too, nietzschefan, and He loves you, but He's not going to force Himself on you, and neither am I.

Peace - Jesse.

[Medicine*Woman]

This is an interesting claim. I just want to check out the realism of posting 48 posts per day. Not all necessarily one liners, but a mix of one liners and somewhat meatier posts. If you don't mind I am going to target all your posts for this purpose. (Actually I am going to do that whether you mind or not, which should help to simulate the SAM mode.)
Above this is a default post, the items below are new Time:7:24
The rest of your post seems to deal with the allegorical/metaphorical nature of all religious literature. In your exposition you seem to be qccording a lot of respect for these allegories. This is at odds with your normal position, Could you explain.

*************
M*W: Well, it's obvious you have done your homework! I don't think I come anywhere near 48 posts per day! I think you're talking about S.A.M., but I think S.A.M. has other posters posting in her username. In any event, S.A.M. is such a liar. I would never have anyone else post under M*W, but again, that's just me.

[Medicine*Woman]

Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

*************
M*W: Why, thank you Cheski! I would have never thoughtyou would take my side!

[Medicine*Woman]

Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

*************
M*W: Why, thank you Cheski! I would have never on anything! I'm really not the bitch I pretend to be!

[JesseLeigh]

Originally Posted by CheskiChips
Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

Umm... MW - I think, though I may be mistaken, that Cheski, bless his heart, may have been referring to a post by me.

Peace be upon you - Jesse.

Edited to add: You might want to reevaluate what you pretend. I'm sure you're familiar with the old adage "We are what we pretend to be." ;)

[Medicine*Woman]

Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.
*************
M*W: But S.A.M. admits that she is a liar! How could anyone believe anything she says? Apparently, she hasn't studied enough.

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally Posted by CheskiChips
Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

Umm... MW - I think, though I may be mistaken, that Cheski, bless his heart, may have been referring to a post by me.

Peace be upon you - Jesse.

Edited to add: You might want to reevaluate what you pretend. I'm sure you're familiar with the old adage "We are what we pretend to be." ;)
*************
M*W: Well, I've never heard that adage, but whatever floats your boat.

Now that I've read Cheski's posts, I think he might have been referring to S.A.M. I think S.A.M. has several other people posting under her name, which means once again what a liar she is!

And, no, I will not get off her case, I don't care what she believes. She lies to herself!

[nietzschefan]

G'morning nietzschefan!

If you don't know Jesus and our Father then you can be excused for not understanding the significance of Christ's mandate to "Do this in remembrance of Me." (Take in the (symbolic) body and blood of Christ.)

The Christian journey culminates in believers being "Transformed into the Image of Christ," and while we're here on Earth we are part of His 'Body,' branches on the 'True Vine.'

"I am the Vine and you are the branches." Jesus Christ.

I never pretend anything, least of all anything to do with The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. You speak of a God you do not know and deny His existence because you have not interacted with Him on a personal level. To those of us whom God has revealed Himself, to deny Him is unthinkable - not to mention ridiculous. God would like to meet you too, nietzschefan, and He loves you, but He's not going to force Himself on you, and neither am I.

Peace - Jesse.

I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 5 or 6, can't remember now. My friend asked me if I felt anything when I did it. I told him "nope" and he said, "me either". It was about 6months to a year later they did the Abraham and Isaac story at the Baptist sunday school. It was the most screwed up thing I had ever heard till then. Something was definitely wrong with all these people, their 40 year old virgin faces(that weird christian goody-goody look, you know the one), their one minute, kowtowing to God, and the next minute, gossiping about another couple not standing even 10 feet away.

I didn't go again the next sunday and never looked back. I have long tried to justify God in the pretexts of many religions and situations. In the even casual pursuit of the truth, I find that justification smaller and smaller, until I currently reject all man-made, man-written definitions of "God". Even ones thousands of years older than the Bible in any incarnation... Still I cannot discount the absolute possibility it exists, or at least something more powerful than us, in fact created us and continues to screw with us.

I did not get to meet God, and I asked him early and often at a tender age to come and meet with me. Why did he talk to you and not to me?

None the less, I am now forced to deal with the physical evidence of the truth that only the Earth can yield from it's ground. The artifacts and the writings 1000s of years before even your Abraham was supposed to exist. The only truth I can only sometimes accept, the interpretation of these things from learned men and women, that they in turn are scrutinized by their peers by the fine discipline of the scientific method. I do not think it is the best way personally, but I cannot think of one better and it sure as hell is better than blind faith to ancient powermongers whom wore the robe and carried tradition on inbred shoulders.

[Ophiolite]

Nice post Nietzschefan. From the heart.

[CheskiChips]

Originally Posted by CheskiChips
Get off her case, atleast she's studying deeply in whatever she believes.

Umm... MW - I think, though I may be mistaken, that Cheski, bless his heart, may have been referring to a post by me.

Peace be upon you - Jesse.

Edited to add: You might want to reevaluate what you pretend. I'm sure you're familiar with the old adage "We are what we pretend to be." ;)

I would never support Medicine Woman. It was for Jesse.

[nova900]

In the even casual pursuit of the truth, I find that justification smaller and smaller, until I currently reject all man-made, man-written definitions of "God". Even ones thousands of years older than the Bible in any incarnation... Still I cannot discount the absolute possibility it exists, or at least something more powerful than us, in fact created us and continues to screw with us.

N.

How about Near Death Accounts and Pychic phenomanae? I have looked at the arguments on these from both sides and tried to look objectively but I still favor them as at least the best suggestion of evidence for an afterlife. At least many of the people involved can be interviewed,cases examined,general themes compared despite the variety of details in individual accounts. They overall ,seem to portray a much more logical God.
With scriptures from ancient times it really just comes down to conflicting ideas about the nature of God and taking mainly unknown writers word for what they say.

[nietzschefan]

How about Near Death Accounts and Pychic phenomanae? I have looked at the arguments on these from both sides and tried to look objectively but I still favor them as at least the best suggestion of evidence for an afterlife. At least many of the people involved can be interviewed,cases examined,general themes compared despite the variety of details in individual accounts. They overall ,seem to portray a much more logical God.
With scriptures from ancient times it really just comes down to conflicting ideas about the nature of God and taking mainly unknown writers word for what they say.

Funny you should mention that. I read quite a few. Usually it will reflect the person's beliefs. Moslems go to Allah, Christians to Jesus, Buddists to Nirvana, etc etc.

Was it real? Are we simply creating our own universes through some universal power of creation that all our souls possess? Is it possible that all these belief system are in fact, correct in some way?

Or, how open are you to the idea, that these are the final throughs of the human temporal lobe, gathering up the person's life experiences, stored for this event to give that final dream before cold, dark, oblivion?

[Steve100]

Funny you should mention that. I read quite a few. Usually it will reflect the person's beliefs. Moslems go to Allah, Christians to Jesus, Buddists to Nirvana, etc etc.

Was it real? Are we simply creating our own universes through some universal power of creation that all our souls possess? Is it possible that all these belief system are in fact, correct in some way?

Or, how open are you to the idea, that these are the final throughs of the human temporal lobe, gathering up the person's life experiences, stored for this event to give that final dream before cold, dark, oblivion?

Everyone who had a near death experience of any other religion than the one Mr X believes in is lying obviously.

[nova900]

Funny you should mention that. I read quite a few. Usually it will reflect the person's beliefs. Moslems go to Allah, Christians to Jesus, Buddists to Nirvana, etc etc.

It's true people who believe in one particular religion usually meet a religous figure from their religion such as Jesus,Mohammed,Budha, Isis, a Hindu God/Goddess,etc but...the idealogies they thought were literal ..they are told they are not. Perhaps God appers in this form so as a way of comforting them.

Such as the common themes from hundreds I have read:

1) A part of our consciousness is already part of the greater whole (God/Goddess) but while existing in the physical plane our consciousness also has a counterpart,the ego ,that tends to make us forget our true connection to God and the challenge is to eventually at some point realize it.
This would be considered new age,gnostic or blasephemous to the Abrahamic view of God being external.

2) There are various levels in the afterlife from the physical plane,the void (Hellish dark gloomy gray state..varying degrees of it),to the third sphere (first material level of heaven where most half decent people whether atheist or not end up. All the way up to the 10th level where from what I have read our individuality "dissolves" and we merge fully back into the universal consciouness of God.

3) The universe has undergone several "big bangs" and has existed for much longer than 13-14 billion yrs.

4) God created the universe as a way of exploring he/she self thru the multiplicity of multi-trillions of events occurring at any one given time.All of us and everything in the universe is a small part of God. Even God does not fully understand what he/she is so perhaps in that sense even God is limited.

5) Gods two main rules are to be selfless and to practice uncondtional love to each other,to God and to all around us. Most religous scripture other than these two main themes amounts to no more than commentary thru the eyes of the people who wrote them and with all their cultural bias and prejudice,either personal or political.

6) Hell is not eternal. We are held to a standard when we die..how much love we have within us..our intent, and according to that we fit in where we can in the afterlife. People who have committed horrific deeds end up in the void for a period of time..untill they realize the error of their way, God will then allow them to move up thru to the next level.

7) The Devil,Satan does not exist.It's the absence of God that correlates to the concept of darkness,evil,bad intent. God would not create a confrontational being to oppose he/she.

8) God is eternal because God exists in it's true state of one not bound by the duality or force/counterforce of the physical universe.



Just a few of the commanalities I've seen.


Or, how open are you to the idea, that these are the final throughs of the human temporal lobe, gathering up the person's life experiences, stored for this event to give that final dream before cold, dark, oblivion?

Yes, this could be the case. I cannot know for sure they are real. If my consciouness just evaporates upon death I can't get too choked up about it because I will not even be self aware anymore so how could I ever regret not having an afterlife. *lol*

[nietzschefan]

Yes, this could be the case. I cannot know for sure they are real. If my consciouness just evaporates upon death I can't get too choked up about it because I will not even be self aware anymore so how could I ever regret not having an afterlife. *lol*

Nice post, can't argue with it.

Yes indeed, if there simply is nothing after death, there really is nothing to worry about. It is religions that developed their carious accounting systems to control the people to make them do whatever was considered "good" at the time.

But, like Aristotle I have found this more useful and infinitely more appealing as a belief stem to get along in the world as we KNOW it:

"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

And I am a "fan" of Neitzsche, because he teaches us to "Live" for this world. Do not live for otherworldly dreams. I do not really try to "convert" people from their religion, unless they try to convert me. Then it becomes a struggle, battle. I confront their dogma with truth, their beliefs with fact and their interpretations with the real history if I know it.

Religion, beliefs , whatever gets you through the day. I don't care. I think they can be very helpful, particularly to calm the scared people whom desire only a simple life and would easily trade money and time for an imaginary Apollonian roof over their heads. But when it means to influence to control and to spread(and they all do in some way) I will be one to hold up his hand and speak reason.

[JesseLeigh]

G'morning nietzschefan!

I did not get to meet God, and I asked him early and often at a tender age to come and meet with me. Why did he talk to you and not to me?

Ask Him again, nietzschefan. God tells us to 'Keep on asking and it will be given to you,' and to 'Keep on knocking and the door will be opened to you.'

You sound as if you've been hurt badly by... something or someone. I believe the five-year-old child in you still seeking and is in pain. I have prayed to God through Christ to answer the five-year-old in you, for I do not believe that God would leave any of his children answered. Your posts read as if you feel God has let you down - but He doesn't do that. If my prayers find favor with The LORD, He *will* answer you soon. Ask again, I believe that if you do it will not be in vain.

Please do remember that 'When you ask you *must* believe that God is the Rewarder of those *earnestly* seeking Him.' Your motive(s) will mean everything when you ask, so make certain you ask for no other reason than that you *earnestly* want to know God.

You should never confuse human weakness, error, spite, or anything else human with God and Christ - humans will disappoint you every time - because we *are* human and we make mistakes and 'fall' often. Don't look to humans, nietzschefan, look to God through Christ.

I don't know why God talks to me and not to you - it's certainly not because I'm any more worthy, for I'm not worthy at all. I come from an irreligious family (with the exception of my great-grandmother - long dead now - but she was an inspiration to me while she was alive) and didn't ask God in words to come into my life until I was late in my teens. I feel I had a 'Damascus Road' experience in that God apprehended me and told me what I was going to be doing with the rest of my life (quite a different destiny than the one I had planned for myself), as He continues to do today.

Thank you for sharing your heart with us, with me, it touched me deeply.

Your servant in HIM - Jesse.

[Steve100]

How does God respond?

[CheskiChips]

I'm simply a disciple of Christ. I guess I spent too much time in the missionary field in the ME and principally Old Jerusalem, so much of it is habit, I suppose.


Actually upon re-reading this I no longer support Jesse Leigh. What would a Christian Missionary be doing in Old Jerusalem? Perhaps spreading Jews-For-Jesus (http://jewsforjesus.org/)? Funniest organization potentially ever. I heard a Rabbi saying Jews for Jesus spoke to a classroom of Jews who had no interest in religion...and gave an argument. Immediately the children in the class grew beards and there hair turned white.
Perhaps a member of Massah Israel (http://www.jewsforjesus.org/join/massah_israel)?

[JesseLeigh]

G'morning Cheski!

You ask...

"What would a Christian Missionary be doing in Old Jerusalem?"

Giving Bible studies to Moslems mostly - usually hiding under staircases, or at night in the Jerusalem Forest beside the Yad Vashem. (You must be familiar with the punishment for Moslems caught studying with a Christian and the fate of the Christians who minister to these people?) They were the ones hungry for the Word of God. They sought us out, as did some Bedouins, and so we taught them.

The Jews we met, the practicing ones (most Israeli's are secular), wouldn't lower themselves to speak to us - not that we attempted to interact with them outside of the boundaries of common courtesy, which we didn't find so common amongst that particular group. They couldn't have known that we were Christian, it's not as if we wore tee shirts! And we didn't and don't belong to any group, Cheski, I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. We were in Israel because God sent us there - period.

I have several Jewish friends, some secular, some not, but I take St. Francis of Assisi's advice when people clearly aren't interested in Christ. He said, 'Preach the Gospel daily - if necessary use words.' ;)

Shabbat Shalom - Jesse.

[JesseLeigh]

P.S. I wouldn't have taken you for a bigot, Cheski. Are you bigoted against all Messianic Jews or just 'Jews for Jesus' - none of whom I've had the pleasure of meeting yet?

Regardless of what you think of Jesus, He hailed from the tribe of Judah, and therefore, while on Earth, was a bona fide Jew. Most people who call themselves Jews today are nothing of the sort as they are not descended from the tribe of Judah. Most aren't even Semitic but are of Eastern European extraction. Not to split hairs or anything.

[CheskiChips]

G'morning Cheski!

You ask...

"What would a Christian Missionary be doing in Old Jerusalem?"

Giving Bible studies to Moslems mostly - usually hiding under staircases, or at night in the Jerusalem Forest beside the Yad Vashem. (You must be familiar with the punishment for Moslems caught studying with a Christian and the fate of the Christians who minister to these people?) They were the ones hungry for the Word of God. They sought us out, as did some Bedouins, and so we taught them.

The Jews we met, the practicing ones (most Israeli's are secular), wouldn't lower themselves to speak to us - not that we attempted to interact with them outside of the boundaries of common courtesy, which we didn't find so common amongst that particular group. They couldn't have known that we were Christian, it's not as if we wore tee shirts! And we didn't and don't belong to any group, Cheski, I thought I'd made that abundantly clear. We were in Israel because God sent us there - period.

I have several Jewish friends, some secular, some not, but I take St. Francis of Assisi's advice when people clearly aren't interested in Christ. He said, 'Preach the Gospel daily - if necessary use words.' ;)

Shabbat Shalom - Jesse.

P.S. I wouldn't have taken you for a bigot, Cheski. Are you bigoted against all Messianic Jews or just 'Jews for Jesus' - none of whom I've had the pleasure of meeting yet?

Regardless of what you think of Jesus, He hailed from the tribe of Judah, and therefore, while on Earth, was a bona fide Jew. Most people who call themselves Jews today are nothing of the sort as they are not descended from the tribe of Judah. Most aren't even Semitic but are of Eastern European extraction. Not to split hairs or anything.


While there's no purpose in discussing the validity of your latter statements, no progress would be made. However the Muslims there are in a lot of danger for learning anything. Their leaders slaughter them if they attain knowledge...and I must admit I think it's funny that you'd teach a bedouin.

In any case "Shabbat Shalom" means "Peace upon your sabbath". Unless it's Friday night, or Saturday morning you simply say "Shalom" "Kol Tuv"(Be well) "Erev tov" (Good night) "Boker tov" (Good morning)

[JesseLeigh]

I know what it means, Cheski - why d'you think I only use it on Shabbat? I had to speak both Arabic and Hebrew in Jerusalem. The sooks are quirky that way. ;)

Have you yourself ever been to Israel? I'm not asking you if you took the dime tour, have you lived and worked there as I have? I'm well aware of the dangers of working with Moslems and see nothing funny in teaching a Bedouin. Why do you? Jesus told us to teach *all* who are hungry for His Word. I don't remember anything about disregarding Bedouins.:shrug:

Shalom Aleichem - Jesse.

[nova900]

Actually upon re-reading this I no longer support Jesse Leigh. What would a Christian Missionary be doing in Old Jerusalem? Perhaps spreading Jews-For-Jesus (http://jewsforjesus.org/)? Funniest organization potentially ever. I heard a Rabbi saying Jews for Jesus spoke to a classroom of Jews who had no interest in religion...and gave an argument.

Hi CheskiChips,

Just curious as to how many Jewish people today believe Jesus fufilled the prophecies of the messiah according to the OT?
From what I have read by many Jewish Rabbis and Scholars he does not appear to have fufilled them and I tend to agree with what they say based on my own knowledge of both the OT and NT.