Nonsense Expressions

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

A watched clock never boils. Oops. A watched pot never boils. I've never known a pot to boil. OK, what's in the pot never boils? If I watch a discarded cigarette, it won't set fire to grass? What if I peek thru my fingers with 1 eye? Can a person angry with me hassle me by staring at my pots while I attempt to cook?

A broken clock is always right twice a day. Broken sometimes means nonfunctioning & sometimes malfunctioning. So a broken clock might be running & might never be "right". A stopped clock is always right twice a day. Simply showing a time that eventually must come about isn't being right any more than a painting of a clock actually indicates what time it is or someone's 14,233rd guess as to the town or city I live in being right.

The exception proves the rule. There was a time this made sense. What it meant was the exception tests the rule. People repeat this now meaning the exception shows the rule is true/accurate/good which is absurd.

Head over heels (in love). Who doesn't have their head over their heels nearly every second of their waking time???

I'll keep an eye out for them. He caught my eye. I'm keeping an eye on you. I only have eyes for you.

Is the glass half full or half empty? No matter how much people fool themselves, they mean the same thing, no more, no less.

Enter your PIN number. Enter my personal identification number number???

Get your ducks in a row. I've actually tried this. It's like herding cats. And they won't stay angry for long.

It's like being stuck in quicksand. Well, it's very easy to get out of quicksand. Maybe it should mean it's like being ignorant.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you. Sometimes this is wise & sometimes it means you're to be a meek sheep.

The straw that broke the camel's back. I'd like to see this if not for the cruelty to the camel.

I'm just doing my job. The root of much evil.

I just can't stand it! 99.999% of the time these people are standing it.

I'll knock your head off! I'd like to see this if not for all the blood & ... you know ... the cruelty.

It's always darkest just before dawn. Have these people ever been up before dawn?

Things will look better in the morning. That never worked for me.

This hurts me more than it hurts you. WHACK!!!

Would you like flies with that? IF I wanted FLIES, I would've ORDERED FLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your coat, Sir? No, it's not my coat. I borrowed it from James Dean but keep your paws off it anyway!

Don't put all your eggs in 1 biscuit.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Oops I forgot 1.
Walking back & forth. I must go forth before I can go back.

[cosmictraveler]

Never put hog jowls in with chicken gizzards.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

How is that nonsense?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

But we can still be fiends.

[tim840]

All you're proving right now is your lack of ability to infer or comprehend implied meaning. "Is the cup half full or half empty?" Of course people know its the same thing. Its all about how you see it. really, it is meant to test pessimism vs optimism. "The straw the broke the camel's back." All it means is that events were leading up to a climax, and one final act set things in motion. Obviously a straw cant break a camels back. "Dont bite thehand that feeds you." It means that if you abuse the source of a valuable item, you might stop receiving said item. Not that one should never protest anything. And its "dont put all your eggs in one basket." Meaning, if you drop the basket, all of your eggs will break, whereas if you only have half of the eggs in the dropped basket, you'll only lose half of your eggs.

Dont be such a literalist. Things dont need to make perfect sense for people to understand their meaning. Especially set phrases like those. :rolleyes:

[tim840]

Athough, PIN number is pretty dumb. Same with MPR room, or MLB baseball.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

The jaggedness of the river did not affect my lizardlike progress through the tile floor.

How's that?

[Orleander]

Lord Love a Duck

[Fraggle Rocker]

Don't be such a literalist. Things dont need to make perfect sense for people to understand their meaning. Especially set phrases like those. :rolleyes:Don't be such a curmudgeon. ;) He's being silly. There's plenty of room for humor on the Linguistics board, as long as it's humor about words.

Haven't you ever heard Gallagher go on about it?

"Can you help me? My TV is out of whack." "Oh really? What does your picture look like when the TV is in whack?"

Why do we call them "apartments" when they're all together?

"Don't speak ill of a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes." Sure, because by then you'll be a mile away and he won't be able to hear you. And even if by some miracle he can, he won't be able to come after you because you've got his shoes.

[CutsieMarie89]

My favorite "Why is abbreviation such a long word?"

[Oli]

Why is there only one word for monopoly?
Why is dyslexia so hard to spell?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

How about them squirrels?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

What do you mean I own this bank? That's preposterous! HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[CutsieMarie89]

Is there another word for synonym?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

What's is the opposite of orange?

[CutsieMarie89]

Why is the word 'verb' actually a 'noun'?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

You can't see the forest trees.

[CutsieMarie89]

You can't see the forest trees.

You can't? What have I been looking at? :eek:

[Fraggle Rocker]

You can't see the forest trees.Did you mean, "You can't see the forest FOR the trees"?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

lol yeah my bad.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

How do those flowers smell? I have no idea, I didn't realize they had olfactory senses.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

How do you feel? with my hands, generally

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Thanks, Fraggle. I did think it would be fun. But I'm serious also. Language & communication are important & I believe we'd communicate better if we'd more often just say what we mean & mean what we say. & See below.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Tim840, I'm well aware of the facts you presented. As for the opinions:You think PIN number & MLB baseball are pretty dumb & I think they're all absurd. In my experience, many people do not know half full & half empty are the same. I'm tired of people asking me such ridiculous questions & acting disgusted when I give a sensible answer.
Maybe you think everyone's as smart & educated as you are or you're accustomed to dealing with intelligent people but I can testify there are plenty out there who do not know or understand the things you explained.
Biscuit was a joke. But while mucking about on a farm, it would be much riskier to carry 2 baskets with 32 eggs each than 1 basket with 64 eggs.
Obviously things people say need to make sense most of the time or we'd never get anything accomplished. I draw the line at a diferent level than you.

[Fraggle Rocker]

In my experience, many people do not know half full & half empty are the same.But they're not, and that's the whole point. Surely you understand that there's more than one type of meaning. The denotations of "half full" and "half empty" may be the same, but the connotations are different.

The complete statement of the homily is not that one glass is half full and one is half empty. It is that one person perceives the glass as half full and the other person perceives the same glass as half empty. To say that a container is half empty tells us that you are already focusing on the problem you're going to have when it becomes completely empty. To say that it's half full tells us that you're focusing on what great things you can do with that generous amount of liquid that's still there.

One person is going to spend fully half of his time with that glass of liquid worrying about what to do when it runs out. The other person is enjoying his drink.

[Oli]

The other person is enjoying his drink.
And wondering who's going to buy the next round...

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

One world government. As opposed to a 9 world government???

[CutsieMarie89]

Or when people say they could care less, but what they really mean is that they couldn't care less. Is it supposed to be sarcasm?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Lol

[domesticated om]

Here's one:

"It doesn't matter if you win or lose. It's how you play the game"

That's a bunch of bologna. You always play to win--- winning is determined by how you play the game.

Having fun while playing is a given. Games in and of themselves are forms of leisure.

[Ophiolite]

"It was in the last place I looked"

Traditionally, it has been observed that this is obvious, since you would not continue to look for 'it' once 'it' was found. I don't like tradition, so now when I find something I have been looking for I continue to look in a couple of more places for 'it' before quitting. I recommend this to everyone.

[Oli]

Here's one:
"It doesn't matter if you win or lose. It's how you play the game"
That's a bunch of bologna. You always play to win--- winning is determined by how you play the game.

No no no.
I've just quoted something similar in another thread: It's more important to take part than it is to win.

I suspect that both of these may be (peculiarly) English (okay, possibly British).
They are about the concept of sportsmanship, probably cricket at that.
It was (and only slightly to some extent still is) far, far more important to be a "good sportsman" than it was to actually win.
The result hardly counted because the game was played for the form of the thing and how you played (not how well) was a test AND show of character.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Shoot! I made a list like my OP but fell asleep before hitting Post. When I woke it was gone.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Be careful. Pizza may be hot.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

OK I logged in, made another list & hit the Post button. It told me to refresh & it lost my post. WTH???

[CutsieMarie89]

"There's no 'I' in team." But you can spell "me" if you want.

[cosmictraveler]

How many times must I repeat myself?

[Fraggle Rocker]

One world government. As opposed to a 9 world government???As opposed to more than one hundred national governments.

"One" stresses the hypothesis that we'd be better off with just one gigantic slow-moving tax-sucking thirty-level bureaucracy instead of dozens of smaller and slightly more responsive and efficient bureaucracies. "World" stresses the hypothesis that we'd be better off with a "one size fits all" philosophy being applied to Americans, Chinese, Nigerians and Azeris, instead of just Texans and New Yorkers.Or when people say they could care less, but what they really mean is that they couldn't care less. Is it supposed to be sarcasm?It was originally sarcasm, said with that peculiar whiney, disgusted voice that's supposed to identify sarcastic speech. But it's lost the voice and people don't notice that they're not saying what they mean.How many times must I repeat myself?Why is that a nonsense expression?

[CutsieMarie89]

It was originally sarcasm, said with that peculiar whiney, disgusted voice that's supposed to identify sarcastic speech. But it's lost the voice and people don't notice that they're not saying what they mean.

I thought so. :cool:

[Mr. Hamtastic]

"It was in the last place I looked"

Traditionally, it has been observed that this is obvious, since you would not continue to look for 'it' once 'it' was found. I don't like tradition, so now when I find something I have been looking for I continue to look in a couple of more places for 'it' before quitting. I recommend this to everyone.


Just a note- when I was a kid my parents used this so often that I began to take it literally. I'd spend a few minutes, think of the absolute LAST place I would look, then look there. I remember fondly going to look in the toilet for my shoes, or in the dishwasher for a pencil...

[Mr. Hamtastic]

"That tastes like shit"-You've tasted shit before? Interesting.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

"Colder than a witch's tit in a brass bra"-I have a few questions about this. Who has measured a witch's tit to be a different temperature from other tits? Does a brass bra make things colder? How does a witch's tit in a brass bra feel colder than, say, Joe Blow without a coat?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Fraggle - As opposed to more than one hundred national governments. "One" stresses the hypothesis that we'd be better off with just one gigantic slow-moving tax-sucking thirty-level bureaucracy instead of dozens of smaller and slightly more responsive and efficient bureaucracies. "World" stresses the hypothesis that we'd be better off with a "one size fits all" philosophy being applied to Americans, Chinese, Nigerians and Azeris, instead of just Texans and New Yorkers.

Stranger - It should be A world government. Or a one government world.

Fraggle - It was originally sarcasm, said with that peculiar whiney, disgusted voice that's supposed to identify sarcastic speech. But it's lost the voice and people don't notice that they're not saying what they mean.

Stranger - That's a big part of the problem. People don't know what it meant/means, don't know what they're saying & usually don't care & the way they're using the expression now just plain doesn't make sense.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Colder than a witch's tit

I know about this 1 & maybe Fraggle does but I bet 95% of people who say it don't know.
I never heard or read the brass bra part tho.

Hey, this is looking like a nice combination of fun & serious.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

When 1 door closes, another 1 opens - Thus when 1 door opens, another 1 closes.
Someone's walking on my grave.
Don't look at me in that tone of voice.
I can't breathe! I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
A wise man doesn't know he's wise.
I was literally glued to the edge of my seat.
Dead as a doornail.
Oh god! Oh GOD!!! OH GOD!!!!! OH GOD!!!!!!! OHhhhhhh GOD!

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Can't you take a joke? - Usually said by a bully and/or someone who can't take a joke.
No pain. No gain. - No thanks, I have enough already.
Sit down! I can't see. - If you can't see, why do you need me to sit down?
I'm riding shotgun! - I don't consider this 1 of the worst but it's a shame so many don't know where it came from.
Hold your head up high.
She has her nose in the air.
Only the guilty flee.
The police wouldn't have arrested him if he wasn't guilty.
He's big as a house!
I could eat a horse!
Don't have a cow!
When's your birthday? - It was a long time ago I won't have another until my next life.
You'll be laughing out your ass.
He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

[CutsieMarie89]

Yeah where did "don't have a cow" come from? Is it saying that giving birth to a cow is difficult and painful, so you shouldn't act that way? I'm not making sense anymore. Shutting up.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Don't have a cow
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Don't have a cow may refer to:

a humorous cautionary phrase, dating from the late 1950s at least, possibly of UK origin. Means "don't get so worked up". If one pauses to reflect on the physical aspects of a human being giving birth to a full-grown cow, one can see what this phrase alludes to in terms of emotional expressiveness. Prior to "Don't have a cow", the phrase was "Don't have kittens" (or "Don't have a cat"). A variation in the past tense is also used when someone has already become worked up, e.g. "She had a cow when she found out he'd been smoking."
Bart Simpson's usage of the phrase as a catch phrase in early episodes of The Simpsons.
Also often used by Shaggy from Scooby Doo

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Look what the cat dragged in.
It raining cats & dogs.
Don't let the cat out of the bag.
You could've knocked me over with a feather.
You could've fooled me.
Run like the wind.
Blood is thicker than water.
Here's mud in your eye.
Nothing worth having comes easy.
If it was easy, everyone would do it.

[Mr. Hamtastic]

How about them squirrels?

[synthesizer-patel]

Enter your PIN number. Enter my personal identification number number???


I AM NOT ALONE!!!!


do you also hate:

"ATM machine"

[Fraggle Rocker]

It should be "A world government." Or "a one government world."This is all about connotation again; remember that there is more than one kind of meaning. Your choice of words tells us how you feel about what you're talking about. People want to start the phrase with "one" because their focus is on the harmony they expect to blanket the earth if we don't have multiple governments constantly competing and disagreeing with each other. And they don't want to reverse "world" and "government" because that requires an extra syllable (not to mention a hyphen in print): "A one-government world." It loses its forcefulness.Someone's walking on my grave.That's not nonsense. It's just a way of saying that under the conditions you currently perceive, you feel like your death is imminent.Don't look at me in that tone of voice.That's just silly. People are allowed to be silly. In fact I encourage it.I was literally glued to the edge of my seat.Oh don't get me started on that one. People have co-opted "literally" to mean "not quite literally."Dead as a doornail.That's just a simile. Doornails are obviously dead, so if someone is "dead as a doornail" it means you don't have to take their pulse to make sure.Oh god! Oh GOD!!! OH GOD!!!!! OH GOD!!!!!!! OHhhhhhh GOD!Anglophones are an irreverent culture, especially Americans. Some of our most common epithets would be regarded as blasphemy in other societies.I'm riding shotgun! - I don't consider this 1 of the worst but it's a shame so many don't know where it came from.There hasn't been a stagecoach in operation in the anglophone world for at least three generations, and therefore no roadside bandits, so it's not remarkable that people don't know why the seat next to the driver in a vehicle was once reserved for the guy with the shotgun. Still, "western" movies were popular up until 25-30 years ago so people of my generation are quite familiar with the origin of the phrase.Hold your head up high. -- She has her nose in the air.Those aren't nonsense. People who are ashamed or timid tend to look downward. Which leads to the phenomenon of snooty people holding their heads so high that they're looking over our heads.Only the guilty flee. -- The police wouldn't have arrested him if he wasn't guilty.Those aren't "nonsense expressions" either. There are unfortunately quite a few people who believe that crap. Please don't lose the point of this thread.He's big as a house!Another simile, a perfectly proper and understandable statement. Not nonsense.I could eat a horse!An exaggeration. Again, not nonsense.You could've fooled me.That's a perfectly reasonable way of saying, "I'm so surprised that turned out to be false."

Please try to stay on topic here.

[Gustav]

nonsensical expression > Nonsense Expressions

[Gustav]

And they don't want to reverse "world" and "government" because that requires an extra syllable (not to mention a hyphen in print): "A one-government world." It loses its forcefulnes.


its a matter of aesthetics
romance vs clinical

[Betrayer0fHope]

The one world government is a good one, but say it this way instead. One [world government]. There is 1(one) world government. A government of the world, and there is one. One world government.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Fraggle
Doornails are not dead.
Crap isn't nonsense???

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Them squirrels try to bury my nuts.

[Diode-Man]

A watched clock never boils. Oops. A watched pot never boils. I've never known a pot to boil. OK, what's in the pot never boils?

I think that one has something to do with the theory of relativity... certainly a provable statement.


I'm just doing my job. The root of much evil.

ALL evil. Drug lords are just "doing their job." Assassins are just "doing their job." Weapons dealers are just "doing their job." :D


Things will look better in the morning. That never worked for me.


It worked while I was young... Now I realize time is a just a figment of my imagination.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Doornails are not dead.I beg to differ. Definition #3 of "dead" in Dictionary.com is:not endowed with life; inanimate: dead stones.Crap isn't nonsense???Well sure. I'm just pointing out that a great many of the aphorisms that have been posted on this thread are neither crap nor nonsense.

"A watched pot never boils." -- If you single young men who eat take-out food three times a day had ever spent some time with a woman in her kitchen, you'd have heard her ask, "Is my pot boiling yet?" Women know five thousand adjectives that we couldn't define if our lives depended on it (quick, what's the difference between ecru and eggshell?), but they have a way of speaking that minimizes the use of nouns. They don't say, "Is the liquid in my pot boiling yet?" My wife and I call it "the nounless woman syndrome."

In one of the novels in his Perelandra series, C.S. Lewis had a group of people living together in a mansion. They established the rule that men and women would never work in the kitchen on the same night. The rationale:

If two men are washing the dishes, one will say to the other, "Put this large blue bowl on the second shelf in the cabinet above the counter, next to the smaller green bowl."

A woman will say, "Put this over there with the other one."

[Gustav]

a nail is dead when clinched
thats just jargon
dead stones however is just contrived
neither jargon, popular parlance or particularly logical
a retards idiolect

[eL eSs Vee]

"Good grief!" - Is grief ever actually good?

"Dumb as a box of rocks." - Well, they're generally sold in sacks in the home improvement stores.

"You can't have your cake and eat it, too." - Last I checked, eating your cake was the sole reason for having it.

"The cat's meow." Or for those more inclined toward feline sartorial matters, "The cat's pajamas."

And has anyone, anywhere ever, while drunk, actually seen a "Pink elephant"? I'm not a drinker, but I've never been told that alcohol was a hallucinogen.

"Stone cold." - Whoever thought up this one has never walked barefoot in a desert.


Lee

[eL eSs Vee]

Doornails are not dead.

I agree. One must first have been alive to eventually achieve the status of being dead. Doornails are inanimate.


Lee

[Fraggle Rocker]

dead stones however is just contrivedDictionary.com is a compendium of about twelve dictionaries, and most of them include something along the lines of "incapable of supporting life" as one definition of "dead.""Good grief!" - Is grief ever actually good?Many of our English exclamations that begin with "good" are phonetic degradations of ancient oaths beginning with "God." Even "goodbye" is a contraction of "God be with ye.""Dumb as a box of rocks." - Well, they're generally sold in sacks in the home improvement stores.I've always heard it as "dumb as a sack of hammers." I suppose hammers probably are sold in boxes. My favorite version is, "That new farmhand is as strong as an ox and almost as smart as one, too.""You can't have your cake and eat it, too." - Last I checked, eating your cake was the sole reason for having it.You got it backwards. It goes, "You can't eat your cake and have it too.""Stone cold." - Whoever thought up this one has never walked barefoot in a desert.I doubt that that expression was invented by cowboys. It probably refers to English castles.I agree. One must first have been alive to eventually achieve the status of being dead. Doornails are inanimate.You guys can agree with each other all you want, but you're still "dead wrong." "Inanimate" is in fact one of the definitions of "dead." One of the word's primary meanings is "incapable of living," or "incapable of supporting life."

You're unconsciously interpreting "dead" as the past participle of "to die." If that were true, then you'd be right, in order to be "dead" something has to have "died" first.

I suspect that maybe is the origin of the word, but 2,000 years ago. Nowadays the past participle of "to die" is "died," and "dead" has a different meaning.

You can't make words mean what you want them to mean, no matter how logical you are.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

You can't make words mean what you want them to mean, no matter how ridiculous you are.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

You can't have your cake and eat it, too - 91,400 Google hits

You can't eat your cake and have it too - 791 Google hits

[Fraggle Rocker]

World Wide Words (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-hav2.htm) indicates that this is just one more example of sloppiness overtaking our language and obscuring the meanings of old sayings. It was clearly "eat your cake and have it" back in the 16th century when it first appeared. But as early as the 19th century, one-third of the citations found have already got it wrong, even though people who cared about their language like John Keats and Franklin Roosevelt still knew how to say it right up until a couple of generations ago.

I guess our homilies are becoming as meaningless as a Tupperware full of used staples.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

That is a large part of my criticism & what I've been saying all along!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gustav]

god!
how frikkin annoying

But William and Mary Morris, in The Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins, quote a correspondent who points out that it could come from a standard term in carpentry. If you hammer a nail through a piece of timber and then flatten the end over on the inside so it can’t be removed again (a technique called clinching), the nail is said to be dead, because you can’t use it again. Doornails would very probably have been subjected to this treatment to give extra strength in the years before screws were available. So they were dead because they’d been clinched. It sounds plausible (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-dea1.htm), but whether it’s right or not we will probably never know.

kapeesh?
industry jargon

[firdroirich]

Fall down

[Steve100]

World Wide Words (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-hav2.htm) indicates that this is just one more example of sloppiness overtaking our language and obscuring the meanings of old sayings. It was clearly "eat your cake and have it" back in the 16th century when it first appeared. But as early as the 19th century, one-third of the citations found have already got it wrong, even though people who cared about their language like John Keats and Franklin Roosevelt still knew how to say it right up until a couple of generations ago.

I guess our homilies are becoming as meaningless as a Tupperware full of used staples.

Why does it matter? Either way means exactly the same.

It would be a problem if it were, "you can't eat your cake THEN have it", and, "you can't have your cake THEN eat it".

The fact that it has "and" in the middle means the order does not matter as it suggest both things are to be happening at once, whereas if it said "then", it would imply an order to events.

[amark317]

http://www.crazythoughts.com/

this is a great site.

[Fraggle Rocker]

That is a large part of my criticism & what I've been saying all along!I understand. But a large number of your examples have been incorrect. This is the Linguistics board so we have to dig into this stuff and straighten it out. This is especially important since SciForums has a lot of non-anglophone members who could be confused.Why does it matter? Either way means exactly the same. It would be a problem if it were, "you can't eat your cake THEN have it", and, "you can't have your cake THEN eat it". The fact that it has "and" in the middle means the order does not matter as it suggest both things are to be happening at once, whereas if it said "then", it would imply an order to events.That's hardly correct. "I'm going to put my shoes on and take the dog for a walk." "He fastened his safety belt really tight and drove down the highway at 100mph."

Other things being equal, there is a weakly implied time sequence to events connected by "and." Having your cake and eating it are so contradictory that the only way you can imply the opposite is to overcome that weakly implied time sequence by reversing it.

[Fraggle Rocker]

This is a great site.Well it had better be, since a lot of those jokes are ripped off from Gallagher and George Carlin! They haven't even done a very good job of editing, since several of them are listed twice under slightly different versions.

Most of these are just good fun, but a few pose interesting questions:Why doesn't McDonald's sell hotdogs? – because hotdogs are not nearly as popular in America as hamburgers so there’s not as much profit in them. If you’re driving a federally owned car, and you run a stop sign, is it considered a felony? – If you’re on federal business, state and local police have no authority. A city cop gave a mailman a ticket for driving without a license, and the courts couldn’t prosecute. This was back in the days when the Post Office was a federal agency. Fortunately they changed their rules and required all their drivers to be licensed. If you dug a hole through the center of the earth,and jumped in, would you stay at the center because of gravity? – You would fall to the center and your momentum would keep you going until you popped up on the other side and gravity pulling the other way would finally stop you. Then you’d oscillate back and forth until air resistance eventually slowed you down, each time not popping quite all the way to the surface, until finally you’d come to rest floating around at the center. That would be quite a trip. It will take you many hours to travel the 16,000 miles from one side of the earth to the other. If a person dies and then springs back to life, do they get their money back for the coffin? -- Nobody “springs back to life” because death is permanent. This simply means that their death was diagnosed incorrectly. If this happens to you you’d better hope it was before they put you in the casket because there’s no way the mortician can sell a used casket. If you are asked to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and your the main witness, what if you say "no"? -- You will be in contempt of court. Since courts are miniature dictatorships, the judge can decide to toss you in jail and keep you there until you decide to cooperate. No kidding. If a lesbian has sex with other women but never with another man is she still considered a virgin? – Every community that worries about stuff like that has their own definition of “virginity.” But in virtually all of them, in order to not be a virgin, you have to have a hymen broken by penetration. So it depends on the kind of toys those lesbians are using. Is it rude for a deaf person to talk (sign) with their mouth full of food? – Probably if their hands are full of food. Why is the Lone Ranger called 'Lone' if he always has his Indian friend Tonto with him? – Because he’s a Texas Ranger and Texas Rangers always travel with other Texas Rangers. Why is it that on a phone or calculator the number five has a little dot on it? – So you can operate the keys by touch. Is it legal to travel down a road in reverse, as long as your following the direction of the traffic? – In most states it’s illegal to travel down a road in reverse in either direction, except for the short distance required to park your car. When Atheists go to court, do they have to swear on the bible? – In some jurisdictions we’re allowed to “affirm” instead of “swear.” Why do people say beans beans the magical fruit when beans are vegetables? – A “vegetable” is the edible part of any plant. A “fruit” is the reproductive organ of a plant. The definitions overlap. A bean is a seed, which satisfies both definitions. Why are the little styrofoam pieces called peanuts? – In our house we call the Styrofoan Fritos or sometimes Styrofoam boogers. If milk goes bad if not refrigerated, does it go bad if the cow isnt refrigerated? – It takes a few days to go bad. If you went that long without milking your cow she’d kick your door down. Can a black person join the KKK? – About 25 years ago when they were desperate for members they bought some mailing lists to conservative religious organizations and sent out applications. One went to an African-American guy in Montana. He seriously considered sending it in to see what would happen. Why are there Interstate Highways in Hawaii? – Because they’re paid for by the Interstate Highway system budget and the feds promise to pay for some of their maintenance. There’s a State Highway near Seattle that is a ferry boat route, all water. Who was Sadie Hawkins? – Sadie Hawkins Day is a fictitious event invented by Al Capp for the Li’l Abner comic strip. Do the minutes on the movie boxes include the previews, credits, and special features, or just the movie itself? – Just the movie itself, but that includes the credits. What does PU stand for (as in "PU, that stinks!")? – Pew is a conventional transcription of the exclamation we make when we smell something stinky. Spelling it P. U. means that it’s exceptionally stinky so we’re exaggerating the pronunciation into peeeew. What is the stage of a reptile when it has eggs in it but they haven't been laid. Are they pregnant? – Only mammals whose babies are born live can be pregnant. Animals whose babies hatch from eggs are never pregnant. That includes all vertebrates except mammals plus the monotremes (egg-laying mammals, the echidnas and platypuses) and all the lower orders. Many female birds can produce an egg every day. If Mars had earthquakes would they be called marsquakes? – That’s what science fiction writers call them. Why do dogs like the smell of other dogs butts? – It’s their way of checking each other out because that’s where the maximum concentration of pheromones is. Also because putting your face in another dog’s face would be interpreted as aggression. Do glow-in-the-dark objects stop glowing when somebody turns the lights on? – No, they continue to phosphoresce, but the energy output is low and you can’t see it unless it’s dark or very dim. Do you wake up or open your eyes first? – I don’t know about you, but I wake up with my eyes closed. In some books, why do they have blank pages at the very end? – Because the paper is cut from standard size stacks. Why can't donuts be square? – I can tell you’ve never made doughnuts. That would be really time-consuming and nobody would care that you did it. Do the security guards at airports have to go through airport security when they get to work? – I happen to have a friend who is one. She goes through a different security gate from the rest of us and doesn’t have to take off her shoes or belt. Why are all of the Harry Potter spells in Latin if they're English? – She was trying to imply that the profession of magic is really old. Remember when the Weasleys took a vacation in Egypt and they were impressed by how good the ancient Egyptian magicians were because their spells were still holding? Why are dogs noses always wet? – They don’t have effective sweat glands so they need a different mechanism for evaporative cooling. How come all of the planets are spherical? – Ask the people on the Astronomy board. It’s all about gravity and centrifugal force. When a pregnant lady has twins, is there 1 or 2 umbilical cords? – Two. Dogs can have as many as eight. Why doesn't Winnie the Pooh ever get stung by the bees he messes with? – You didn’t read the story carefully. He goes to great lengths to avoid being stung. Why don't woodpeckers get headaches when they slam their head on a tree all day? – Their brains are suspended in a fluid so they float. What do you call male ballerinas? – They’re called danseurs. Can bald men get lice? – There are two kinds of lice. Most mammals get what we call head lice in their fur. Humans also get body lice inside our clothes. DNA analysis indicates that body lice evolved about 75,000 years ago, so that means that’s about when we invented clothing. If you undergo chemotherapy do you lose your pubic hairs? – I’ve seen people lose their eyebrows. When you're caught "between a rock and a hard place", is the rock not hard? – That’s the point. It means that you’re caught between two alternatives that are both bad. If there were a thousand seaguls in an airplane while it's flying, each weighing two pounds apiece, but they were all flying in the airplane, would the airplane weigh 2000 pounds more? – Its weight would be the same if it were sitting on the ground on a scale. But it’s mass will be greater, and when it’s flying it will need more fuel to carry the extra mass of the birds. Even when they're flying, they’re pushing on the air that’s sealed in the plane and that air pushes on the plane.

[eL eSs Vee]

Thank you for the corrections and origins, Fraggle.

Wow! I've been sloppy! Somehow, over the years, I'd managed to turn the Cake saying around in my head and no one's corrected me until now. Thank you.

"Dumb as a box of rocks" is one I've heard most of my life. I'd also heard the "Sack of hammers" line and do know for a fact that they are sold in boxes (I work in the wood flooring industry and I've never seen them in sacks).

About how old is the phrase, "Good grief"? I remember it from Charlie Brown, and never thought to consider it could be older than that. I'd just thought it was an interesting oxymoron.


Thank you,
Lee

[Fraggle Rocker]

Wow! I've been sloppy! Somehow, over the years, I'd managed to turn the Cake saying around in my head and no one's corrected me until now.You're just being influenced by your language community. You've had a personal demonstration of how language evolves. As you and the websites pointed out, these days most people say it wrong and you unconsciously "learned" to say it that way yourself.

Fifty years ago I never came close to using "he and I" or "him and me" incorrectly. Nowadays so many people say it wrong that I've got the wrong versions etched into my brain. Sometimes I pause to make sure I'm saying it right, and not just the way the last ten people said it.About how old is the phrase, "Good grief"? I remember it from Charlie Brown, and never thought to consider it could be older than that. I'd just thought it was an interesting oxymoron.It's nearly impossible to track down because of the myriad references to the "Peanuts" comic strip. Since Charlie Brown started saying it, people have picked it up from him as a secondary source and that just complicates the search.

The only halfway authoritative source I could find basically did what I did and just took an educated guess. His guess was clearly better than mine because unlike me his eyes both work and he noticed that not only does "good" start with a G, but so does "grief." He guessed that it was what is called a minced oath, a sanitized and de-blasphemed version of "good God," which we still hear people say frequently enough.

Minced oaths were more common back in the days when anglophones took blasphemy seriously, fearing the wrath of their god if they uttered an oath in vain and then failed to honor it. (If a 15th-century Englishman said, "I swear to God I'm going to rip your heart out," a wise man would run away.) The "gee" in "gee whiz" builds a minced version of "Jesus Christ!" "Jiminy Cricket" is an even closer approximation to the original.

"By God's wounds" was once a common way to swear an oath, referring to the punctures Jesus is said to have suffered during the biblical crucifixion story. Eventually the Brits, who unlike us Americans have a strong tendency to compress their language into fewer syllables ("extraordinary" only has two syllables in England), shortened that to "zounds." Since the O was sometimes twisted into a short A and the whole thing could be pronounced "gadzwounds," it was also minced into "gadzooks," which people still say for humorous effect today.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I missed this one the first time around: "Why do the commercials for Kentucky Fried Chicken play the song 'Sweet Home Alabama'?"

I've noticed that they have been downplaying the Kentucky connection for quite some time. In the 1990s they shortened the name to KFC in all advertising and the full name was only reinstated in 2007, and not universally. Using a song about a different state certainly fits the pattern, whatever it might be.

Colonel Harlan Sanders has been dead for almost 30 years, so he no longer has any say in marketing decisions. Truth be known, he was born in Indiana, but the governor of Kentucky bestowed the title of "Colonel" on him in 1935 for "service and contributions to the global community" and for "the advancement of Kentucky and Kentuckians," having started his business in Kentucky in 1930. He's in good (if very eclectic) company, with Mohammed Ali, Mae West, Winston Churchill, Hunter Thompson, Pope John Paul, Presidents Lyndon Johnson and Bill Clinton, and even his competitor Dave Thomas, founder of Wendy's hamburger chain.

The first Kentucky Colonels served in military roles right after the War of 1812, but since then it has become a purely honorary title that requires nomination by someone who is already a Colonel.

Kentucky was a "border state": a slave state with many citizens sympathetic to the Confederacy, which nonetheless did not secede. The other two border states were Missouri and Maryland, and their continued practice of slavery as the war progressed puts the lie to the historical revisionists' assertion that the Civil War was all about freeing the slaves, rather than satisfying Lincoln's hubris and securing him a place on Mount Rushmore when it was finally carved. (He issued the Emancipation Proclamation in the middle of the war, when it was going badly for the Union and he needed the support of the Northern abolitionists.)

Perhaps "Sweet Home Alabama" is a similar tactic to gain support in the South: for a recipe that was invented by a Northerner and perfected in a Border State.

It's probably not well understood outside the USA, but one of the targets of 9/11, the Pentagon, is in Virginia. The attack made Southerners face up to the reality that as far as the rest of the world is concerned--including our enemies--we're all Americans, not Yankees and Rebels.

The formula for the "secret herbs and spices" in Kentucky Fried Chicken is as closely guarded as the Coca-Cola formula. There is only one complete copy of the recipe, at corporate headquarters. Bits of it are made in different locations and shipped to a central site for the final mixing.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

* * * * NOTE FROM THE MODERATOR * * * *
Most of these are not "nonsense expressions." If you'd like to post aphorisms whose origin you don't know, and ask the members to explain them, of course you're free to do so. However, this is not the proper thread for that since it's dedicated to nonsense expressions. In any case, please don't post so many at one time. Neither the Moderator nor the other members have enough bandwidth to respond to them all with corrections and explanations.
Thanks -- F.R.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Indian giver
A bad workman blames his tools.
A day without orange juice is like a day without sunshine.
I’ve been working like a dog.
Family values
Miss Universe
Hydrogen & stupidity are the most common things in the universe.
I can’t get my head around it.
If I had a nickel for every time …
So there is a god!
You snooze, you lose.
Money is the root of all evil.
Knowledge has no price.
Every man has his price.
If you’re not a liberal when you’re young, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative when you’re old, you have no brain.
You don’t have enough muscles for this.
For the life of me … …
Not on your life!
It’s better than the alternate.
This is (has to be) the best steak in the world.
God’s in his heaven & all’s right with the world.
She has no morals.
Atheists worship Satan.
Atheism is a belief (religion, faith, etc).
Your ass is grass.
I’ll kick your ass.
Gays want special rights.
My eyes popped out of my head.
Get your head on straight.
Cat got your tongue?
You have a frog in your throat? Ants in your pants?
Every accusation of a logic fallacy when improperly applied.

[Gustav]

uhh, children
you are being misled

"nonsense expressions" is incorrect
"nonsensical expressions" is the correct form

there is a fraud being willfully perpetrated here
the original correction was roundly ignored

i have contacted the language police
prepare to go down

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

What kind of expressions? Nonsensical expressions.
Expressions of what? Nonsense expressions.
Each is correct.
Unlike :
Fallacy of what? Logic fallacy. Correct
What kind of fallacy? Logical fallacy. Absurd

[Gustav]

"no-nonsense expression"

funnily enough that doesnt sound too bad

/perplexed

[Gustav]

i think plurality has something to do with it

/eek

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Sense Expressions?

[Gustav]

no
it sounds ok minus the s

nonsense expression
no nonsense expression

nonsensical would be required for expressions

dunno really
just a vague idea

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

I double dog dare you.

[Orleander]

I double dog dare you.

my favourite!!!!

How about 'quit lollygagging!'

[Fraggle Rocker]

How about 'quit lollygagging!'That's an expression often heard in boot camp. Sergeants say it to new recruits when they catch them doing anything that's not directly related to basic training. The origin of the word is unclear and it might simply be a silly, arbitrary coinage like "bloviate" or "humongous."

It's similar to "dally": to idle or putter aimlessly. The earliest citation I could find in a quick search was an Iowa newspaper about 150 years ago. The reporter was complaining about the "licentious lollygagging" going on at public dances. Apparently, just like "dally," the word once had connotations of flirtation. It's possible, then, that it comes from the old dialect word "lolly" for "tongue." In America we call small hard candies on a stick "lollipops" as an alternative to "suckers." In Britain a "lolly" is a small piece of hard candy you can lick or suck on, and an "ice lolly" is what we call a "Popsicle."

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

We're gonna turn this team around 360 degrees!

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Time clock

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Get your ass moving!

[MacGyver1968]

"I tell you what". (when used as a complete sentence)

i.e.

Vern: Bubba just got himself a new set of Yosemite Sam "back off!" mud flaps.

Earl : I tell you what.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

LOL
You're telling me!

[CarpetDiem]

My favourite and everyone says it. The truck swerved at the "last minute" to avoid the male pedestrian, which if taken literally would mean the truck avoided him about a mile up the road.:shrug:

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Yep!
Tell me about it!

[CarpetDiem]

Say what!:)

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

That's what I'm talkin bout!

[CarpetDiem]

Fuck knows: who the hell is "Fuck" anyway?;)

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Who the hell do you think you're talking to?

[MacGyver1968]

Fuck knows: who the hell is "Fuck" anyway?;)

This dude "Fuck" must be pretty important.. i.e. "For Fuck's sake"

[CarpetDiem]

You talking to me? (I'm typing)

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Shoot! I would've had that 1 next.
Can we talk?

[CarpetDiem]

This dude "Fuck" must be pretty important.. i.e. "For Fuck's sake"

You got thta right Mac, "Fuck" he's good and he can do himself!

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Whutchu talkin bout, Macgyver?
I'm fucked.

[CarpetDiem]

Shoot! I would've had that 1 next.
Can we talk?

Course we can talk and bullshit walks, although I've only ever seen it run myself.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Talk is cheap. Was it running thru your mind? Was it fuckin awesome?

[CarpetDiem]

Talk is cheap. Was it running thru your mind? Was it fuckin awesome?
It was indeed a running commentary, albeit in pedestrian mode.

What does it mean to be up shit creek without a paddle, when you'd only be floating downstream with ecurrnt in any event and still in the shit, but then the almighty "Fuck' knows!:D

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Hell if I know! Odin willing & the shitcreek don't rise.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

You'll understand when you're older.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

"I love you." "Me too."
He's just trying to get in your pants.
You got me?
You can't IMAGINE what I've been thru!
It just wasn't meant to be.
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
That's what you think!
"Who is it?" "It's me."

[Fraggle Rocker]

Fuck knows: who the hell is "Fuck" anyway?Thats another "minced oath." It was originally "God knows." These days, the mincing backfires. The blasphemy of invoking God's name in an oath is no longer offensive to about 95% of the world's anglophone population, whereas I'd guess that at least half of them would be offended to hear "fuck" in polite conversation.What does it mean to be up shit creek without a paddle, when you'd only be floating downstream with the current in any event and still in the shit. . .The saying was originally simply "Up the creek." I recall the sense of it being that you're no longer in a position to contribute to the solution of a problem. Up the creek means that you're nonetheless not completely lost, as you'll eventually return with the current, as you say. "Down the creek" would be much worse, and I've never heard that used as an expression.

"Up the creek without a paddle" simply means that it will be even longer before we see you again within this problem domain, since you can't even paddle and must rely on the current for velocity.

In WWII the G.I.'s added dirty words to every old saying, so it became "up shit creek," with or without the optional paddle. They made the rounds of locker rooms and hunting lodges, but then in the 1960s the Baby Boomers compulsively dirtied up the language. They appropriated those battlefield epithets and injected them into everyday conversation for shock value. Forty years later of course, the shock is gone.He's just trying to get in your pants.To which the proper riposte is, of course, "Damn, I've got one asshole in there already."You got me? You can't IMAGINE what I've been thru! It just wasn't meant to be. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. That's what you think! "Who is it?" "It's me."* * * * MODERATOR'S NOTE * * * *

Come on, folks, don't lose the thread of the discussion.

This is supposed to be about "nonsense expressions," i.e. expressions that either don't make sense at all or actually contradict their literal meaning. Every one in that last group is perfectly sensible standard English.

The old saying that begins with "Fools rush in. . ." is a quote from venerated 18th century poet Alexander Pope.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

WHERE would angels fear to tread???

[Fraggle Rocker]

WHERE would angels fear to tread???It's "fear" as in, "Oh Crap, is it my turn to deal with these guys tonight?" Not, "I'm scared I'll get hurt." It's from Alexander Pope's poem "An Essay on Criticism." (http://poetry.eserver.org/essay-on-criticism.html) About the sixty-eighth stanza (I lost count):Such shameless Bards we have; and yet 'tis true,
There are as mad, abandon'd Criticks too.
The Bookful Blockhead, ignorantly read,
With Loads of Learned Lumber in his Head,
With his own Tongue still edifies his Ears,
And always List'ning to Himself appears.
All Books he reads, and all he reads assails,
From Dryden's Fables down to Durfey's Tales.
With him, most Authors steal their Works, or buy;
Garth did not write his own Dispensary.
Name a new Play, and he's the Poet's Friend,
Nay show'd his Faults--but when wou'd Poets mend?
No Place so Sacred from such Fops is barr'd,
Nor is Paul's Church more safe than Paul's Church-yard:
Nay, fly to Altars; there they'll talk you dead;
For Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread.
Distrustful Sense with modest Caution speaks;
It still looks home, and short Excursions makes;
But ratling Nonsense in full Vollies breaks;
And never shock'd, and never turn'd aside,
Bursts out, resistless, with a thundering Tyde!

[Billy T]

Posting here as Fraggle R. is active here now and may be interested and have some answers, and also because idomatic expresions are often sort of nonsense.

I have Brazilian wife.* For her it is not:

Raining cats and dogs. It is raining pocket knives.

Likewise cats only get 7, not 9 lives in Brazil.

I think surely these and other quite similar idiomatic expresions must have some common origin, but some differences have crept in. Any ideas as to why, or other examples?
--------------
*She is pretty, intelligent and interesting and speaks English to me. Thus she know that for me it is raining cats and dogs, but recently when the rain was hard, she said: "It is raining cows and oxen." - perhaps that is how it got to be "pocket knives" - some creative Brazilian, who knew the English version and was caught in a sharp rain storm said (in Portuguese): "It is raining pocket knives." and other brazilian hearing him repeated it?

[Steve100]

"Raised to the ground"
I hate it when I read that.

How many people will jump on me I wonder.

[Spud Emperor]

Razed to the ground.
Incinerated.
It's legit.

[Steve100]

I know it's razed to the ground. That's why it pisses me off to read "raised".

Another one is "head over heels".

I always say "arse over tit".

[Spud Emperor]

I know it's razed to the ground. That's why it pisses me off to read "raised".

Another one is "head over heels".

I always say "arse over tit".

Yeah, sorry.
Arse over tit is an Aussie staple but we do have some classic mixed metaphors.
'You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make 'er sing.'..
That's not one of 'em but I'm sure you can imagine.

[MacGyver1968]

Another one is "head over heels".



That one I don't understand either...my head is already over my heels...now heels over head I could understand. I had a girlfriend that could do that.

[Steve100]

"Leave him be", meaning "leave him alone"
Where did that come from? Or does it somehow make sense?

[Fraggle Rocker]

That one I don't understand either...my head is already over my heels...now heels over head I could understand. I had a girlfriend that could do that.The full expression is to "fall head over heels in love." In other words, to tumble."Leave him be", meaning "leave him alone." Where did that come from? Or does it somehow make sense?Back when I was a kid, "let" and "leave" were getting pretty muddled. People used to say, "Let him alone." I don't hear that one too much any more; perhaps the outrage of our teachers was successful.

"Leave him be" is sort of the same thing in reverse, but it does have a slight difference in connotation. "Let him be" just means, "allow him to be whatever he intends to be." "Leave him be" means the same thing plus, "Let's go away and allow him to do that all by himself."

[Steve100]

The full expression is to "fall head over heels in love." In other words, to tumble.Back when I was a kid, "let" and "leave" were getting pretty muddled. People used to say, "Let him alone." I don't hear that one too much any more; perhaps the outrage of our teachers was successful.

"Leave him be" is sort of the same thing in reverse, but it does have a slight difference in connotation. "Let him be" just means, "allow him to be whatever he intends to be." "Leave him be" means the same thing plus, "Let's go away and allow him to do that all by himself."

Ta.

[Billy T]

We seem to be drifting off thread so I will add my push:

Meaning and use of words constantly change. Example I like best is "Lady"

It rarely means a "Lord's wife" any more, at least in the USA. It has come to mean "female" as in:

A drunk sailor and his lady are sleeping it off in the gutter.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Example I like best is "Lady" It rarely means a "Lord's wife" any more, at least in the USA. It has come to mean "female" as in: A drunk sailor and his lady are sleeping it off in the gutter."Lord's wife" was only one intermediate step in this word's tumultuous evolution. It comes from Anglo-Saxon hlaf-dige, which means "bread kneader," i.e., the family cook. Hlaf evolved into "loaf," dige into "dough."

"Lord" ain't so exalted either. It's from hlaf-wird, "bread guardian." Wird is our verb "ward."

You can see the Indo-European root of hlaf in the Russian word for bread, khlyep.

[Billy T]

..."Lord" ain't so exalted either. It's from hlaf-wird, "bread guardian." ...Interesting. Any conncetion to:

"Lord, give us our daily bread." of the Christians?

[Fraggle Rocker]

Any conncetion to: "Lord, give us our daily bread." of the Christians?Just a cosmic coincidence. When the bible was translated into English, "lord" had already ascended to its medieval meaning, "the master of the estate or realm." I doubt that anyone remembered its roots in Anglo-Saxon, considering that in the first couple of centuries after the Norman Invasion, English was treated as a vulgar language by the French rulers, so there was very little formal study of it. The equivalent word in the Spanish translation is señor, which has a very similar meaning.

Without being a biblical scholar, I think the Hebrew word they were translating was YHWH. That's a name for their god that was deliberately written with no vowels because they believed that uttering his name would be the utmost blasphemy and bring down even more wrath upon them than they'd already been subjected to. I guess they figured that sticking a couple of arbitrary vowels in there in order to be able to recite it out loud gave too small a chance of hitting on the right pronunciation. Let's see, classical Hebrew had something like twenty vowels and there's room for three of them in a four-letter word, so the odds would be 8,000 to one. I can't imagine somebody hasn't gotten it right accidentally a few times over the centuries. :) Nowadays they standardize on Yahweh, probably because the first guy who said it that way wasn't turned into a pillar of salt. The Romans tempted fate and put in different vowels, and pronounced it as Yehowah, but they spelled it in Latin as Jehovah, so that's why we say it in English with those odd consonants instead of semivowels.

Anyway, there wasn't any good way to translate Jehovah and for some reason the English translators didn't just want to call him Jehovah, so they called him the Lord.

BTW, even though in English we call that passage from the New Testament "The Lord's Prayer," the word "lord" does not occur in it. In Latin it's just called the Pater Noster, and I think many people just refer to it in their own language as the "Our Father," because those are its first two words.

The Lord's Prayer is the most popular and well-known prayer in Christianity. It's been estimated that on Easter Sunday, two billion people say it at least once.

As for the "give us today our daily bread" line, we have to remember that in Roman times mankind--a carnivore by instinct and metabolism--had converted himself to a grain-intensive diet. Many people got almost no meat at all in their diets and they were lucky to get enough dairy products to satisfy their minimum nutritional requirement for certain amino acids. So "one's daily bread" was just about all one had for sustenance, and beseeching one's god to keep it coming was basically asking him to keep one alive.

It's interesting to note that since the ancient people in fact knew nothing about balancing the amino acids in their protein sources and the vitamins and minerals in their daily menu, they were eating a very unhealthy diet. This is reflected in the fact that at the end of the Mesolithic Era, when we stopped being hunter-gatherers and eating primarily meat, the life expectancy of an adult who had survived the risks of childhood was 50-55, whereas in the Roman Empire, when people subsisted on "their daily bread," it had fallen to the low 20s.

[Billy T]

...It's interesting to note that since the ancient people in fact knew nothing about balancing the amino acids in their protein sources and the vitamins and minerals in their daily menu, ...Not consciously, did they know, but humans are quite good correlators. I have read that succotash (corn and bean, lima beans, usually I think) is a balanced set of amino acids. Corn is missing Lysine, I think, and perhaps others which the beans supply. This mix, so I have read, was common dish of the Incas etc.

While on the subject of beans, my nearly illiterate field worker on farm I owned taught me something, which seems to be true, about them. Namely, humans are the only animal that likes to eat them.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Not consciously, did they know, but humans are quite good correlators. I have read that succotash (corn and bean, lima beans, usually I think) is a balanced set of amino acids. Corn is missing Lysine, I think, and perhaps others which the beans supply. This mix, so I have read, was common dish of the Incas etc.Most of the species and varieties of beans now cultivated came from the New World, so Europeans did not have them until recently. The people of Central and South America did, of course, and the eastern Asians had their soybeans. The Europeans had a few types of beans but apparently they could not be developed into an important food crop.

Diet for a Small Planet, one of the first books that spawned a semi-rational vegetarian diet movement, explains the amino acid issue in elaborate detail. There are several essential amino acids missing from grains and several that are missing from nuts and seeds, but if you combine them in the right proportion you come pretty close to simulating the combination from animal tissue, which is what our bodies are adapted to eating. Beans are technically in the same category as nuts and seeds, but they don't have all the same amino acids, so grains and beans without nuts and seeds don't provide complete nutrition.While on the subject of beans, my nearly illiterate field worker on farm I owned taught me something, which seems to be true, about them. Namely, humans are the only animal that likes to eat them.Well it's no wonder. They're like grains, built a little bit too sturdy so it's hard for any animal's digestive system to break them down unless they're cooked first. And they're larger than grains so even an animal that can digest wheat, corn, rice, barley, etc. might not have a stomach that can crack beans.

Alfalfa is a legume and I know they feed it to cattle, but they feed them the entire plant, as hay, not just the beans.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

I started this thread with a clear purpose & topic which has been severely perverted. I don't understand why you people don't start another thread instead.
You could call it Explaining Expressions or There's No Such Thing As Nonsense Expressions or It Doesn't Matter 1 Whit What People Say, Whether They Mean What They Say Or Whether They Know What They're Saying.
I'd like to take my name & everything I posted off this thread but it seems I can't.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I started this thread with a clear purpose & topic which has been severely perverted. I don't understand why you people don't start another thread instead. You could call it Explaining Expressions or There's No Such Thing As Nonsense Expressions or It Doesn't Matter 1 Whit What People Say, Whether They Mean What They Say Or Whether They Know What They're Saying. I'd like to take my name & everything I posted off this thread but it seems I can't.But you've been as guilty as anyone else of going off thread. In fact, you've probably been more guilty since you've made more posts than anyone else and an extremely high percentage of the expressions you cite are NOT nonsense expressions.

I considered doing you a favor and separating this into two threads, as you suggested, but I discovered that many of the posts in both threads would be yours.

The following posts--all YOURS!--are not nonsense. I understand that the reason they are not nonsense may not be clear to everyone, including PROMINENTLY yourself--as well as you yourself explaining why some of then are NOT nonsense. The fact is that much of this thread has been taken up by explanations of why these expressions are not nonsense. I don't see any value in breaking it apart and it would be an awful lot of work for me.
NOT NONSENSE EXPRESSIONS:
When 1 door closes, another 1 opens.
Someone's walking on my grave.
I can't breathe! I can't breathe! I can't breathe!
A wise man doesn't know he's wise.
Dead as a doornail.
No pain. No gain.
Sit down! I can't see.
I'm riding shotgun!
Hold your head up high.
She has her nose in the air.
Only the guilty flee.
The police wouldn't have arrested him if he wasn't guilty.
He's big as a house!
I could eat a horse!
When's your birthday?
You'll be laughing out your ass.
He doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
Look what the cat dragged in.
Don't let the cat out of the bag.
You could've knocked me over with a feather.
You could've fooled me.
Run like the wind.
Blood is thicker than water.
Nothing worth having comes easy.
If it was easy, everyone would do it.
Get your ass moving!
Who the hell do you think you're talking to?
Talk is cheap.
Was it fuckin awesome?
Hell if I know!
Odin willing & the shitcreek don't rise.
You'll understand when you're older.
"I love you." "Me too."
He's just trying to get in your pants.
You got me?
You can't IMAGINE what I've been thru!
It just wasn't meant to be.
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.
That's what you think!

[Billy T]

"Nonsense Expressions" is my example, to be on thread, or close, but it is not really an "expression".

If any set of words is used often enough to be called an "expression" then the very fact that it is in common use shows that that collection of word has a well understood meaning. Is not ___________ , but "nonsense expressions" is _____________. (Some help me out here. My memory fails me, but there is the perfect word for set of self contradictory words, like "tiny gigantic" thing.)

Now "cup horse green" is nonsense but it is not an expression.
And
"Run like the wind" is an expression but not nonsense - It has a well understood meaning.

If this thread is about what I think the OPer intended, then I think it should be called something like "Non-literal expressions" or "figurative expressions"

About the only nonsense expressions I can think of occur in songs as fillers.

I did not go to Yale (I think that is where "the tables down at Morries" are in the Whiffenpoo song) but I think part of the refrain is "Baa, baa, baa." or "Rub a dub, dub" as in "Three men in a tub" are nonsense expression.

Can anyone think of a truly non-sense expression that is not a filler in a song? Rules are strict: - Your entry must not convey any commonly understood meaning – I. e. it must be nonsense, yet sufficiently frequently used that no one could claim to have just made it up as I do for my nonsense "cup horse green".

[Steve100]

I'm sure if you heard me talk, you'd think I was talking nonsense just because of my dialect.
I can't think of any truly nonsense expression at the moment.

[Steve100]

I thought of one. "I'll knock seven bells out of you".
But supposedly it comes from the days when most boxing matches were 7 rounds.

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Yes they are nonsense. The vast majority of the times people say them, it doesn't make any SENSE. They don't KNOW what they're saying & often don't CARE. It's ABSURD.
It's evidently not clear to some that they ARE nonsense. It's evidently not clear to some that language & communication should make sense.
Explaining where it came from or what it once meant doesn't mean it's not nonsense. Usually what it once meant doesn't fit what they think they're saying.
Using logic in this was condemned & that's about as foolish as can be.
Most people don't know where the saying "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread" came from & don't care & what they mean by fear is NOT what it was explained to mean.
It needs to be improved & I'm trying to contribute something to that.
I started the thread, I wrote the OP & I'm off topic. Simply ridiculous.

I didn't ask anyone to work to separate this thread. I 1st asked that it be done away with. Then I asked why you don't start another thread if you don't want to stay on topic here.

[Cellar_Door]

She's a terribly nice girl.

Stand down, men.

Believe you me.

Goose walked over my grave.

--------------------------

Blood's thicker than water.

What's nonsensical about that? The saying is referring to how blood ties are thicker and more substantial than anything else.

[kevinalm]

Billy,
I believe the full line is something like 'We are poor little lambs who have lost our way, baa, baa, baa.' A bit silly but it does make sense.

[Fraggle Rocker]

My memory fails me, but there is the perfect word for set of self contradictory words, like "tiny gigantic" thing.It's called an oxymoron.I did not go to Yale (I think that is where "the tables down at Mory's" are in the Whiffenpoof Song) but I think part of the refrain is "Baa, baa, baa."The Whiffenpoofs are the Yale glee club, and the name comes from a Victor Herbert operetta. Mory's is the bar where they've been hanging out for a hundred years. "Baa baa baa" is not a nonsense expression since the refrain compares the Whiffenpoofs to a group of lost lambs. My high school choir sang the song.The Yale Whiffenpoofs are the oldest collegiate a cappella group in the United States, established in 1909. Best known for "The Whiffenpoof Song", based on a tune written by Guy H. Scull (Harvard 1898) and adapted with lyrics by Meade Minnigerode (Yale 1910), the group comprises senior men who compete in the spring of their junior year for 14 spots. The business manager and musical director of the group, known in Whiff tradition respectively as the "Popocatepetl" and "Pitchpipe" are chosen by members of the previous year's group, although an alumni organization maintains close ties with the group.

The Whiffenpoofs have performed for generations at a number of venues, including Lincoln Center, the White House, the Mormons' Salt Lake Tabernacle, Oakland Coliseum, Carnegie Hall and the Rose Bowl. The group has also appeared on television shows such as Jeopardy!, The Today Show, Saturday Night Live, 60 Minutes, Gilmore Girls and The West Wing. Throughout the school year, the Whiffenpoofs traditionally perform Monday nights at Mory's, known more formally as "Mory's Temple Bar," circulating from room to room singing.

The Whiffs' best-known alumnus may be Cole Porter, who sang in the 1913 lineup of the Whiffenpoofs when he was a student at Yale. Today the group often performs Porter songs in tribute. [Porter is one of America's most famous songwriters (I've Got You Under My Skin, Begin the Beguine, Night and Day, In the Still of the Night, Don't Fence Me In, What Is This Thing Called Love, and more than two dozen musical comedies including "Kiss Me Kate," based on "The Taming of the Shrew"), and one of the few of the Tin Pan Alley Era who wrote both lyrics and music.]

The Whiffenpoofs donate part of their proceeds each year to the Whiffenpoof Children's Literacy Initiative, which aims to create 15 literacy centers in 12 countries, including the U.S. They travel extensively during the school year and take a three-month world tour during the summer. At one time most members were full-time students, but today many members take all or part of the year off and are effectively full-time professional Whiffenpoofs.

The word "whiffenpoof" originated in the 1908 opera Little Nemo by Victor Herbert, based on the comic strip Little Nemo in Slumberland by Winsor McCay.

[Billy T]

Billy,
I believe the full line is something like 'We are poor little lambs who have lost our way, baa, baa, baa.' A bit silly but it does make sense.

It's called an oxymoron....Thanks That was the word my memory would not deliver. These "tip of the touge" conditions tell quite interesting things about the functioning of memory and show that on at least some occasions the information is well stored but just can not be accessed. I am of the opinion than most of what you have forgotten is still "well stored" but the access process to it is broken. But can not say more except "cow horse green" as must stay on thread. :D

Oh sage of all things linguistic, How did the era get to be called: "Tin Pan Alley Era" and when was it? (roughly the start and end)? Quite possibly if even you do not know, then "Tin Pan Alley Era" is at least in the running for a Nonsense Expression. (Commonly phrase with no well known meaning)

Yes, I agree Kevinalm. I had for gotten that They were "poor little lambs."

I think "Rub a dub dub" still qualifies.

[Billy T]

...
It's evidently not clear to some that they ARE nonsense. It's evidently not clear to some that language & communication should make sense. ...Yes language & communication should make sense. - Transfer the intended idea /information from speaker to hearer with high probability of success.

This, in most languages that have a written version, is achived by a set of nearly (>99%) arbitary sounds and written symbols. "Rose" is arbitary, but undestood by English speaker to refer to a type of flower on plant with cane like stocks that usually have thrones. But "zook" would do just as well, however "oozk" would not as there are phonetic constaints on words.

Likewise "Big" could be "tet."

If this were the case "Tet zook" would replace "Big rose " with no problems. I am sure you agree, but my point is that all phrases get their meaning the same way: by common usage.

Thus, no well understood word or phrase can then declared to be nonsense, just because if disected into its componet parts it is an oxymoron. For example is "bedrock" nonsense because beds are not made of rock? If not, then why is an officer telling his troops to "stand down" nonsense? It is very well understood and an efficient order. It communicates well. You are confusing "nonsense" with "not literal."

"Stand down" is not nonsense, but is arbitary as are ALL words and pharases. I still think that to be nonsense, the arbitary word or phrase must fail to communicate to the typical hearer. (There are private words and phrases, which are nonsense to most, but not to the intended hearer. - I give one in next line, just for you.)

Wake up and smell the tet zooks. ;)

[Fraggle Rocker]

Oh sage of all things linguistic, How did the era get to be called: "Tin Pan Alley Era" and when was it? (roughly the start and end)?Tin Pan Alley was West 28th Street between 5th and 6th Avenues on Manhattan Island, the home of the music publishing industry from the 1880s until the Hollywood district of Los Angeles began to eclipse New York City as the entertainment capital of the USA in the mid-20th century. The origin of the name is not clear, but it is widely interpreted as a derogatory reference to many pianos playing at once, sounding like people pounding on tin pans.

There was a vague continuity in American popular music during that era, even though it evolved from traditional songwriting into ragtime and blues and finally swing. Music from the 1890s was still played at dances in the 1940s, and people who grew up in the 1890s were fairly comfortable listening to Benny Goodman and Frank Sinatra. It wasn't until the 1950s, when the first generation born after WWII asserted itself, that there was a wrenching discontinuity in America's musical tradition. The Tin Pan Alley era ended, and the era of rock and roll dawned. We didn't care much for Tommy Dorsey and Irving Berlin, and our parents couldn't stand Little Richard and Chuck Berry.I think "Rub a dub dub" still qualifies.Nursery rhymes are full of nonsense. Some of it is deliberate nonsense, put together to make an amusing rhyme, such as "Rub-a-dub dub, three men in a tub." Others turn out to be remnants of songs in other languages. It used to be common in England for the wealthy people to hire nannies from Ireland and Wales, and the nannies sang songs to their patrons' children in Gaelic and Welsh.

When I was a kid we learned a song for a school play called "Buttermilk Hill,' which contained about 75% true nonsense, i.e. sounds that were not even words. "Shooley, shooley, shooley too. Shooley sack-a-wack, libba-bibba boo." Forty years later I saw a movie that was set in medieval Ireland, and a mother was singing that song to her baby. I barely recognized the original Gaelic lyrics; the ones I had learned were terribly garbled.

Once people begin singing a song to their children, it may live for centuries or forever. The things that we learn when we're very young are things we never forget; they're the last things to go even with Alzheimer's. I've noticed that songs by the Beatles, such as "Yellow Submarine" (an obvious choice) are starting to show up on compilations for children.

Anthropologists say that many of the games European and American children play today have changed very little from those played in the Roman era. I suspect we'll find that the same is true of children's music. We're probably still humming some melodies that Roman children sang.Yes language & communication should make sense. - Transfer the intended idea /information from speaker to hearer with high probability of success.But don't forget that speech has connotations as well as denotations. Sometimes all we're trying to communicate to the other person is how we feel about something.. . . . is "bedrock" nonsense because beds are not made of rock?Bedrock is the "bed" of solid, immobile rock upon which the less stable surface that we build houses on is supported. If you can sink a pillar all the way down and anchor it to the bedrock, you've got a solid house, even if it's on the side of a hill. A bed is not necessarily something soft; it's something supportive. This is the how meanings of words drift over the centuries and we can track those shifts by finding compound words or expressions that have retained the original meaning.If not, then why is an officer telling his troops to "stand down" nonsense?This is another example of the same thing, a shift in meaning. "Stand" was originally the gerund of "stay," which it still is in German. The original meaning of "to stand" was merely to remain fixed in one spot. It was later that it became more specific, that the standing had to be performed in an upright position. We still say the complementary "stand up," after all, meaning "change the position of your standing from sitting to upright."

[Billy T]

Thanks. Another request oh sage of all things linguistic about the nusery ryme "Jack and Jill." On thread as it may be an example of once a every meaningful expression now being nonsense to all but a sage like you and one like me who has read about things economic for 6 decades.

I have read it was about an economics time very much like ours now. The validity of that all hinges on the following: Were Jack and Jill ever slang for coins (or at least money)? Jack being some English money and Jill probability be some French money (or that of some economic power other than England at the time the nursery ryme was created, perhaps as only new words to an older tune.). Certainly "crown" could be a reference to English money or English economic power.

"Up a hill" referring to an inflationary period prior to a economic collapse or depresion, which first struck in England:
"Jack fell down and broke his crown and Jill came tumbling after"

"Water" is certainly something that many sought at a well back in then in the era before indoor facets were available but never on a hill top. So this could be a reference to the sillyness of all expecting some "greater fool" to come and buy their inflated assets at even a higher price than they foolishly paid.
Can everyone say "investment property"?

I.e. if Jack (of the Union Jack?) and Jill are reference to money this well known nursery ryme is not nonsense, but a valuable economics lesson many needed to have heeded during the last 8 years. If it is, when was the panic?

PS I have alway thought "Union Jack" was a reference to the English flag, but perhaps it was earlier a reference to the adoption of a unified currency replacing many more local ones in England and the modern reference to the flag came with the English empire era.

[kevinalm]

Billy,

Re: rub a dub dub

Found this on wiki. Rub a dub dub may not have been altogether nonsensical. I'll leave you to judge. ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rub_A_Dub_Dub

[Steve100]

I always assumed it was from "having a rub down", as in getting a wash, and the "a dub dub" was purely for lyrical goodness.

[kevinalm]

What surprised me was the umm... bawdy aspect... shall we say. I keep picturing a disreputable fellow in a trenchcoat, looking through the peephole mumbling to himself... rub a dub dub...rub a dub dub. :D

I wonder if that a general trend, nursery rhymes of today being rather cruder originally than the modern versions?

[Fraggle Rocker]

Rubbing is just something you do in a tub. People say "rub-a-dub-dub" to their babies when they wash them. I say it to my dogs. Although they're usually dirty enough that it becomes "scrub-a-dub-dub." It's too perfect of a rhyme to not be used in any poem about a bathtub, whether it's bawdy or innocent. I wouldn't read too much into it.

The fact that the earliest written reference only goes back to the 1300's is no surprise. Printing hadn't even been invented yet and the mass literacy that it engendered was a long way off. Only royal scribes, monks and scholars were writing things down, and they probably didn't devote a lot of their precious time and ink to silly rhymes. :)