Super SUPER Advanced Technology

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Diode-Man, Aug 30, 2008.

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  1. Diode-Man Awesome User Title Registered Senior Member

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    "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
    -Arther C. Clarke

    Many things have been considered impossible, and were you to take certain technologies into the past with a time machine, you'd have the populace thinking you were Merlin.

    Am I right? Perhaps.

    So from a scientists perspective. What do you people think of all these "religious miracles" that people claim? Such as mysterious and dramatic healing. Such as the man who crashed a plane and broke practically all bones and now walks.

    I am a person who believes that everything (except consciousness itself) has a viable "non-magical" explanation. Just because one doesn't understand how something works, doesn't mean it can be deemed "magical."

    One of my favorite quotes of all time: "The facts of reality are what they are, irrespective as to whether we know them or not." -Ayn Rand

    Now, I'll let you draw your own conclusions and I'll go watch some Star Gate episodes lol

    I'm just presenting ideas to spin the wheels in your heads at very high RPMs indeed. I'm also bored with... stuff, so I hope this idea will cure some boredom.

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  3. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    If magic worked it would still have some kind of intermediary force that was more or less controlled by human will. It would still be some kind of applied science.
     
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  5. Diode-Man Awesome User Title Registered Senior Member

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    How would you explain the recovery of the "miracle man" then? The Dr's stated he would never walk again, and yet he did. His spine was demolished. Surely spinal communication pathways don't regrow?

    Perhaps there is a force in the Universal which works without revealing its means? I believe there is.
     
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  7. MetaKron Registered Senior Member

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    So maybe that intermediary force that I mentioned exists and some people do learn how to use it. This kind of recovery is within the realm of physical possibility, obviously, or it would never happen. It takes one case to prove that it can happen.
     
  8. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    I think we have advanced to the point where a scientist's reaction to some seemingly incredible phenomena would be to start thinking about how to replicate the effects rather than viewing them as magic.

    Up until about 400-600 years ago, there was little in the way of organized science. Even most of those who were well educated were more oriented to supersticious & religious explanations than to logical scientific ones.

    I do not think it is correect to make an analogy based on 14th century reactions to radio, TV, airplanes, et cetra.
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. We have reached a point where we have come up with theoretical ways to do virtually anything, even if we don't have the technology to actually do it at the moment. If we ran into a race of aliens (or whatever) that could "miraculously" heal people or "magically" change one object into another, we would probably say "Wow, they must have some REALLY sophisticated nano-machines!" or something like that. Even if they were able to do things that appeared to violate the fundamental laws of nature, we would probably just assume that their physicists knew things that ours didn't.
     
  10. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Or perhaps the doctors were simply wrong about how badly injured he was. Or perhaps his body possesses freaky (but entirely natural) healing abilities that most ordinary humans don't have. It's not necessary to invoke strange new forces in the universe to explain things like this.
     
  11. weed_eater_guy It ain't broke, don't fix it! Registered Senior Member

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    This is sort of like the time-traveler idea, the idea that "maybe jesus was a time traveler from the future with hidden equipment that could heal people, let him walk on water, etc.".

    It's a neat one, and interesting because those technologies were well outside the realm of thought back then. The equivalent today wouldn't be a guy with nanobots (a concept we're aware of), it'd be a guy with such technology that you couldn't wrap your head around it with today's concepts. He would appear to you like an angel or like God himself (somehow), floating in front of you for a few brief seconds, flashing images in your mind, and vanishing without a trace.

    Makes one wonder...
     
  12. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Not trying to derail this thread into a religious flame-fest, but as I pointed out above, a much simpler explanation is that the descriptions of phenomena like this simply weren't accurate in the first place. If you take it for granted that Jesus was able to heal people, walk on water, etc., then yes, that might be a reasonable explanation - but before you try to tackle something like that, you should first determine if there's any reason to take the descriptions seriously.
     
  13. Diode-Man Awesome User Title Registered Senior Member

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    "Nothing is impossible." A mind blowing idea. While all things may be possible, that doesn't mean that "all things" will happen, I would hope that all things may be possible and that all things won't happen. So I'm going to modify the quote to my own liking "Most things are possible, probably."

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    Of course, the scientist says that its all explainable by science. But what the scientist doesn't realize is that perception itself can only be explained by experiencing it. Sure science can take apart the brain and say this does that with such and such brain chemical, but that still cannot explain the magic of being.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2008
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Absolutely. The difference is that today we understand the concepts of science and technology. We're less likely to interpret something amazing and unfamiliar as magic, and more likely to assume it's just a technology we haven't seen yet. To paraphrase Dino, the whole reason we call the Enlightenment the Enlightenment is that we became enlightened. Not just the scientists, but all of us.

    Well maybe not all of us. Many people choose to deny enlightenment. They prefer not to live in a universe governed by natural laws that can be understood through observation and experimentation. They rather like the idea of supernatural forces acting on them and their surroundings capriciously and illogically. A lot of people believe in faith healers, even though what they use is not even particularly advanced technology, just the tricks of stage magicians.

    To their credit, the people who believe that UFOs are aliens are at least manifesting faith in technology. They don't think they're supernatural phenomena. Even the people who believe in Bigfoot, psychic powers, homeopathic medicine and the Bermuda causeway are certain that science will one day prove them right.
     
  15. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    The technology of an advanced civilisation ('magical' technology, let's call it Clarketech) will have limits. Even Clarketech has to obey the laws of physics (however the laws it obeys might not be the ones we know about yet).

    What is unlikely is 'magical' tech which allows anything to happen. The limits of Clarketech might be limits we are not familiar with, but they will nevertheless be definite boundaries. Not all miracles will be possible, even given the most advanced technology in the Universe.
     
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    And there's our problem. Whenever I tell laymen that massive interstellar transit and galaxy-wide civilizations are impossible because the lightspeed limitation mandates generation starships that might come home once every couple of thousand years after visiting only six inhabited planets, they tell me that we may not know as much about relativity as we think we do.
    Indeed. But laymen will assure you that since we can't predict what those limits will be, we have no idea what may be possible. They're convinced that wormholes or space warps might be out there waiting for us.
     
  17. kmguru Staff Member

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    We have no idea what is possible...that much is true...even though a specific condition may not be possible. While we may not be able to use wormholes to go from point A to Point B, you may do dimensional jumps or whatever state yet to be discovered. There was a time, humans could not travel faster than a horse and buggy...flying mach 1.2 was impossible. Think about sound recorded in a tiny machine and played back to a caveman....
     
  18. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    If you state something is impossible, you are also stating that you know exactly what actually IS possible. No one can make this claim.

    For some the idea of breaking the light barrier is blasphemy. For me not so much.
    The greatest scientific advances have always been met with controversy. This is no different.
    Treat it with an open mind, any intelligent person can tell you the more you learn you increasingly become aware of how little you actually know. Once you understand the fundamental limits of knowledge placed on you by your five senses, suddenly reality itself is questioned.

    I just wish people would realize this so EVERYONE can move forward in their thinking.

    I dont know whether or not things like breaking the light barrier is possible, but Im willing to admit it MAY be possible.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2008
  19. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Why this exception?

    I do not want to divert your thread into religion or free will discussion as SF has plenty of those threads already, so if your reason for this exception is something related, I will probably not take your answer further.

    I am much more certain* that no object can exceed the speed of light than that there is any foundation (other than current ignorance) for your exception.
    Chambers called consciousness the "hard problem" not the "impossible problem."

    In fact, the obvious conflict between the currently known laws of physics and the universal belief that free will is real, not an illusion, combined with the "enlightenment" Fraggle spoke of (and Dinosaur's POV also) lead me first to suspect that "consciousness" itself, like "free will," might be an "experienced illusion."

    Later, my deep studies of how the more narrow field of "visual experience" could be implemented by mere nerves stimulating each other lead me to a strange POV, which I call the Real Time Simulation, RTS.**

    The RTS can explain dozens of current mysteries, including such divers items as "phantom limbs," etc.; the "Out of Africa" event; "out of body experiences"; all optical "illusions" (including the "crumbling hand" illusion which Chambers stated defies any explanation with current physiology or psychology AND also visual experience with eyes shut as in dreams AND visual hallucinations, like "pink elephants," in conflict with current retinal images); all tactile hallucinations; the clear perception of very wide field of view, despite only ~1 degree of high resolution data provided by the fovea; and many other apparent conflicts with physics our conscious experience provides us with, almost continuously!

    ---------------------
    *While possible that the current belief that no material object or information can exceed the speed of light could be wrong, if it is wrong, then essentially all of current scientific knowledge must undergo extreme revision. A physical explanation of "consciousness" in contrast need not make any revision of existing knowledge, only an extension of it. It may be immodest, but I think my RTS link below is a start in that direction, but I hasten to add that there may be other and better approaches.

    The point is that there are approaches, consistent with current physics. (No magic or miracles, required. Just some more "scientific progress" IMHO.)

    **More on the RTS at:
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1294496&postcount=52
    for details why I suggest the RTS, and evidence supporting this non-standard POV.

    It is a long read, (any such strange POV needs a lot of justification / evidence), about 8 pages if printed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 5, 2008
  20. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Billy T: I reread the linked-to post. I generally agreed with the concepts described when I first read that post. I still generally agree with the view that our brain creates a simulation of the real world. I wonder if the following from that post means what it seems to say.
    I believe in the existence of the Real World. The above suggests that you do not.

    I also believe that I have a physical body which conforms to the laws governing the real world.

    Free will is an issue that I have not pondered deeply. If I spent a lot of time on this issue, I would probably conclude that Genuine Free Will is an illusion.

    However, I live my life in a manner consistent with having Free Will. I try to make sensible decisions. I observe those who tend to be self destructive & conclude that they made the mess they live in.

    Some are less fortunate than I due to being born into a worse environment and having a poorer genetic heritage. However, many of those starting with disadvantages played the cards they were dealt well and were not self destructive.

    The illusion of Genuine Free Will may not be as silly as many other illusions.
     
  21. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for the second reading - not many do the first.
    No, I believe firmly in it, including my physical body and that it follows "natural laws," which surely at least closely resemble the generally accepted "laws of physics."
    To be more explicit: I do not believe in "miracles" but hasten to add that both these positions are “acts of faith.” – Not demonstrable truths. It was my faith that my body is controlled by natural laws that compelled me to reject genuine free will for ~30 years, as that body is controlled by nerve discharges and they are controlled by the natural laws, especially those related to the laws of chemistry and physics, such as the rate of diffusion of neuro-transmitters across "synaptic clefs" etc.

    A way to quickly summarize my beliefs is:

    Like those who believe in God and their "soul," I think "I" am not a physical body, but I replace God and soul with the RTS.

    More explicitly "I" do not even exist when in deep sleep as the Real Time Simulation that creates me and all my perceptions is "shut down," but of course my body does still exist and if it is able to, will start up the RTS and create me again. (Note I often place quotes around I, me or we, etc. to indicate clearly that it is not by body but that part of the RTS which is “me” I am referring to. – I am 99% sure that most of the RTS executes in the parietal cortex, but think much of “me” is produce in frontal cortex, and delivered to the parietal RTS, sort of like a continuous “call routine” of FORTRAN programs. If you ever programmed in FORTRAN language, as I bet an old dinosaur has, you will understand this better.

    During dreams, "I" exist, but the RTS is not constrained as much as when by body is awake by the need to faithfully as it can reproduce the real external world that can be sensed. Drugs, I think but not sure as I have never used them, also can also relax the real world constrains. – Creative professionals (artists, musicians etc.) tend to find them beneficial for this same reason.

    Why we sleep is not really known. Crick's idea about "consolidating memory" (sort of "defragmentation" of our mental computer's memory) is gaining strength, but I think that is just due to the age computer age we live in. Probably, 300 years ago, when pneumatics was a widely used model (electricity being unknown), opinion would have been: "To rest the brain's pumps that circulated the "vital fluids" thru the nerves." would have been offered as the reason why we sleep.

    I have my own answer as to why we sleep and it is built on the certain fact that dreams are not as tightly constrained by physical reality:

    I think dreams help us to "think outside the box." I often will intentionally go to sleep thinking about some problem that has not yielded to my awake processes, only to discover quickly (after I have had my cup of coffee and am fully awake) that either I was needless assuming a constraint or that I have a whole new way to approach the problem. If this is true, and really does open previously blocked solutions, then evolution has built us to sleep so we can dream. - It is a simple as that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2008
  22. Diode-Man Awesome User Title Registered Senior Member

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    Well, we can explain scientifically with math, how chemicals react and act. We can explain how energy works and why.

    But without consciousness itself no facts can be established. If the universe had no life forms at all, then I wager that it wouldn't exist at all.

    There is only one Universe, but it is divided into two segments. Your self-awareness, and the atomic matter it exists inside. Awareness is the "magic element" which is formed within well arranged atomic matter.

    Sure we have chemicals moving and dispensing within our brains which can be explained, but the ultimate result is "magic."

    If a 10 year old falls into a coma for 90 years then wakes up 100 years old, it is possible that like a dreamless sleep, 90 years went by in less than a second. And if the child was never born, then a trillion years could go by in less than a moment. Without life, there is nothing. It takes life forms to actually create time. :shrug: The Universe could be created and destroyed in less than a moment without life forms.
     
  23. kmguru Staff Member

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    A tree falling in the forest analogy?...interesting...
     
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