Grammar Vigilantes

[Orleander]

Is this man mentally ill?

Grammar Vigilantes banned from national parks (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/22/sign.vandals.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview)

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2008/US/08/22/sign.vandals.ap/art.sign.vandals.ap.jpg

PHOENIX, Arizona (AP) -- When it comes to marking up historic signs, good grammar is a bad defense.
Jeff Deck and Benjamin Herson corrected the grammar in the first paragraph of this sign.

Jeff Deck and Benjamin Herson corrected the grammar in the first paragraph of this sign.

Two self-styled vigilantes against typos who defaced a more than 60-year-old, hand-painted sign at Grand Canyon National Park were sentenced to probation and banned from national parks for a year.

Jeff Deck and Benjamin Herson pleaded guilty August 11 for the damage done March 28 at the park's Desert View Watchtower. The sign was made by Mary Elizabeth Jane Colter, the architect who designed the rustic 1930s watchtower and other Grand Canyon-area landmarks.

Deck and Herson, both 28, toured the United States this spring, wiping out errors on government and private signs. They were interviewed by NPR and the Chicago Tribune, which called them "a pair of Kerouacs armed with Sharpies and erasers and righteous indignation."

An affidavit by National Park Service agent Christopher A. Smith said investigators learned of the vandalism from an Internet site operated by Deck on behalf of the Typo Eradication Advancement League.

Authorities said a diary written by Deck reported that while visiting the watchtower, he and Herson "discovered a hand-rendered sign inside that, I regret to report, contained a few errors."

The fiberboard sign has yellow lettering with a black background. Deck wrote that they used a marker to cover an erroneous apostrophe, put the apostrophe in its proper place with correction fluid and added a comma.

The misspelled word "emense" was not fixed, Deck wrote, because "I was reluctant to disfigure the sign any further. ... Still, I think I shall be haunted by that perversity, emense, in my train-whistle-blighted dreams tonight."

Deck and Herson pleaded guilty to conspiracy to vandalize government property.

They were sentenced to a year's probation, during which they cannot enter any national park or modify any public signs. They were also ordered to pay $3,035 to repair the watchtower sign.

[Oli]

On something of that age, with the historicity behind it, it's indefensible to "correct" it.
OTH my local park has a sign stating that the public uses the equipment "at there own risk". :eek:

While we're on the subject: thread title Grammar Vigilates?!?
For shame:spank:

And (from an English perspective) the statement by one of the defendants:

The misspelled word
Surely that should be "mis-spelt".
Aaaargh!!!
(As a sufferrer of what Lynne Truss calls the "Seventh Sense" - we see punctuation/ grammatical/ spelling errors all the time)
Tch, sneaky: you corrected the title...

[Fraggle Rocker]

On something of that age, with the historicity behind it, it's indefensible to "correct" it.I can't read the sign so I can't judge how much historicity it's got. What's indefensible is that it wasn't corrected in the first place. The defendants could make the point that after waiting patiently for sixty years somebody had to finally step in and do the government's job, and they should present a bill for... oh let's see, at the typical rate for government projects that would be about six thousand dollars.OTH. . . .I don't know that abbreviation.. . . . my local park has a sign stating that the public uses the equipment "at there own risk".State and federal agencies usually manage to proofread their signs, but municipalities, especially smaller ones, often don't have the staff to do it. I suppose we shouldn't complain, since the taxpayers would have to pay their salaries, but I will still complain that since the feel-good education revolution of the 1960s, a couple of generations of Americans who can't spell have been given passing grades in their English classes. Of course that is eclipsed by the statistic that the average university graduate today reads at what my generation called the sixth-grade level. And we all read at a higher level than we write!While we're on the subject: thread title Grammar Vigilates?!? For shame.I fixed it. But it is more than a little ironic. Since I can't see the writing at this magnification, I'm left to wonder whether it was a grammar issue at all. The error they chose not to correct was in spelling and the one they did correct seems like it might have been in punctuation. The word "grammar" can be used rather loosely to encompass more than dangling participles and subject-verb disagreement, but I can't find a definition that includes issues unique to written language.And (from an English perspective) the statement by one of the defendants: misspelled. Surely that should be "mis-spelt". Aaaargh!!!That is British usage. (Not "English." Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland follow British standards and you can be sure a couple of those folks will jump in here to correct you.) Our dictionaries list "spelt" as a variant of "spelled," but they don't put the hyphen in "misspelt."
(As a sufferrer of what Lynne Truss calls the "Seventh Sense" - we see punctuation/ grammatical/ spelling errors all the time)They're everywhere. The signs in Spanish that are springing up all over the USA are forehead-slappers. They make random guesses about choosing between S and soft C. (Of course the Brits wouldn't have that problem since they all speak Castilian dialect.) I wonder if the French signs in Canada are just as bad.

[Oli]

OTH: My bad (aargh!); should have read OTOH.
Hoist by my own petard in my rush to castigate Orleander.
Er, wait, I'm English and live near Yorkshire, so it's On T'other Hand...:cool:

That is British usage. (Not "English." Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland follow British standards and you can be sure a couple of those folks will jump in here to correct you.)
I'm one of "those folk" and I'm English... (as implied)

Our dictionaries list "spelt" as a variant of "spelled," but they don't put the hyphen in "misspelt."
Usage again, I was taught that the double "s" could be misread... leading to "miss-pelt"

[Fraggle Rocker]

Hoist by my own petard in my rush to castigate Orleander.At least you got that right. Most Americans say "hoisted on." Of course we don't use "hoist" as the past tense of "to hoist." It's "hoisted."I'm one of "those folk" and I'm English."Folk" is singular here: "a people." (Equivalent to German Volk.) In the plural it's just a folksy synonym for "people," or "my folks" meaning "my family" or small community.Usage again, I was taught that the double "s" could be misread... leading to "miss-pelt"Since we don't pronounce or spell it that way there's no ambiguity over "Miss Pelled."

Uh, I don't understand why reading it with the syllable break in the wrong place would be a problem. You'd pronounce it the same way, right?

[Oli]

Uh, I don't understand why reading it with the syllable break in the wrong place would be a problem. You'd pronounce it the same way, right?
You can't hear a difference between miss-pelt and mis-spelt?
Or am I missing the point?

[Fraggle Rocker]

You can't hear a difference between miss-pelt and mis-spelt?Well technically yes, but only because I've studied phonetics. The P in pelt is aspirated because it's the first phoneme in the word, whereas the P in spelt is unaspirated. Most people don't hear the difference between allophones consciously, which is why they're not used as distinct phonemes. You have to make them hang a piece of tissue in front of their lips and say the two words so they can see the difference that the little puff of air makes.

Even with all of my study, I still can't reliably hear the difference when Indians demonstrate B and BH. We don't even have the second sound as an allophone in English.

[Oli]

Ah, they're (to an English/ British ear) completely different words.
Weird really.

[Nasor]

They were also ordered to pay $3,035 to repair the watchtower sign.
Did they "repair" it back to the original faulty writing, or did they correct it in the repaired version? Also, $3035 seems beyond stupid for fixing a hand-painted sign. For that price I would expect it write its message in the sky with lasers or something.

[Simon Anders]

I think it shows a very strange kind of fixation. There are so many incredibly ugly signs - aesthetic crimes - that have correct grammar and spelling. To walk past these and deface the relatively subdued and quaint sign that did get their goat seems to indicate a kind of neurotic focus. These guys can't see the forest for the anxillary buds.

[Oli]

I think it shows a very strange kind of fixation.
Naturally.
Everyone else's hobby horse is a neurotic fixation, while your own is a mere quirk.

It's the old irregular verb again:
I am an individual
He is eccentric
They are raving loonies.

[spidergoat]

Being old or historical is no excuse for bad grammar or spelling. These signs are supposed to be educational, they are supposed to be an example for our children. We should pay these guys for their service.

[Oli]

Being old or historical is no excuse for bad grammar or spelling.
Not per se, but after a certain time the misspelling can become "part" of the artefact's appeal.

[Simon Anders]

Naturally.
Everyone else's hobby horse is a neurotic fixation, while your own is a mere quirk.

It's the old irregular verb again:
I am an individual
He is eccentric
They are raving loonies.
Sure, I have neurotic fixations. I was responding to theirs.

[Simon Anders]

Being old or historical is no excuse for bad grammar or spelling. These signs are supposed to be educational, they are supposed to be an example for our children. We should pay these guys for their service. If there really was some consensus outrage about the sign, they could put another sign next to it, a small one for children, where they are challenged to find the 2 or 3 errors. That's educational.

[Simon Anders]

Not per se, but after a certain time the misspelling can become "part" of the artefact's appeal.There you go.

[Oli]

There you go.
Well sure because although I am a grammar/ spelling/ punctuation nazi that isn't my particular "foible" :)

[Nasor]

This sign was only 60 years old - it's not like it's a relic from colonial days or something.

[Oli]

60 is enough to classed as antique I believe.

[Simon Anders]

Well sure because although I am a grammar/ spelling/ punctuation nazi that isn't my particular "foible" :)
Even though it is a different issue with Shakespeare - since 'emmense' was not the correct spelling then and a sign is generally a more restricted form of communication - I did immediately think of someone wanting to correct 'all the spelling and grammar errors in Shakespeare'. And given the fact that young people are forced to read (in school, no less) what might mishape their oh, so plastic brains - his plays - should we be a-twitter about that issue also?

[Oli]

And given the fact that young people are forced to read (in school, no less) what might mishape their oh, so plastic brains - his plays - should we be a-twitter about that issue also?
We ARE a-twitter about Will.
Leave him alone!!!

(And a note to all Aussie young whippersnappers - read him!)

It's from far back enough that the spelling (and grammar/ syntax) should be left as is.
Sort of like (although for different reasons) Daisy Ashford's The Young Visiters (sic).

[Simon Anders]

We ARE a-twitter about Will.
Leave him alone!!! Hey, I love him.It's from far back enough that the spelling (and grammar/ syntax) should be left as is. I know, I said it was a different case, but it must concern those in the thread who are afraid of the park sign's damaging effect on children.

[Oli]

Fat chance of "damaging effects" on kids these days; the park sign that went up near me recently (post #2) can only have been done by fairly recent "school" leaver.

Damn, I'm beginning(?) to sound like a crusty old fart. :)

[Simon Anders]

Fat chance of "damaging effects" on kids these days; the park sign that went up near me recently (post #2) can only have been done by fairly recent "school" leaver.

Damn, I'm beginning(?) to sound like a crusty old fart. :) Just imagine if spelling grammar mistakes were the highest priority confusions in the young, or old, for that matter.

A skillful pedagogue, parent or teacher, can use mistakes.

Text on bottles of pills, appliance use instructions, the Physician's Desk Reference, constitutions and so on should be immaculate.

Funny little signs in parks, aaaaah......

[Fraggle Rocker]

Text on bottles of pills, appliance use instructions, the Physician's Desk Reference, constitutions and so on should be immaculate. Funny little signs in parks, aaaaah......

I'm not demanding that park signs be proofread as rigorously as your other examples because a misunderstanding could put the reader at risk. I'm demanding it because park signs are created by government bureaucracies. Any government project, no matter how small, takes a ridiculously long time, involves an unbelievably large number of people, and costs a shameful amount of money. I don't see why some of those people couldn't use some of that time to give me an error-free sign for my tax money, instead of sitting around all day "administering" each other.

How many pairs of eyes have seen that sign before it is finally installed in the park? Twenty? And none of them took their jobs seriously enough to read it carefully?

[Orleander]

....The sign was made by Mary Elizabeth Jane Colter, the architect who designed the rustic 1930s watchtower and other Grand Canyon-area landmarks...

....How many pairs of eyes have seen that sign before it is finally installed in the park? Twenty? And none of them took their jobs seriously enough to read it carefully?

She made it and installed it. Much less bureaucracy then. And considering the Depression was gearing up, I think they had bigger things to worry about.

[Simon Anders]

How many pairs of eyes have seen that sign before it is finally installed in the park? Twenty? And none of them took their jobs seriously enough to read it carefully? A 60 year old handpainted sign? It might have been the only draft, painted in place.

After 60 years the sign, for me, takes on a value, even including the mistakes, that gets lost with correction. I am not making a rule that all signs should be left as is and would have a different reaction to a new sign, or one that is recent enough so that it does not actually feel like a cultural artifact in itself.

I see no loss in a small sign with correction to the side

The sign maker(s) and approver(s) are most likely dead and much as I dislike wasteful bureaucratic enterprises, I would like a flexible system that could in cases like this, leave things be. And I dislike the 'editors'' act. They were not creative enough to come up with a sign to the side of the one they defaced.

I think it would be much braver and important to go after aesthetic offenses, however legal or correct their language use is.

[MacGyver1968]

This sign was only 60 years old - it's not like it's a relic from colonial days or something.
in the west...60 is old

[cosmictraveler]

Simon Anders.....I see no loss in a small sign with correction to the side

I'd agree.

[Nasor]

in the west...60 is old
Hell, by that standard half my family are living antiques.

[Fraggle Rocker]

She made it and installed it. Much less bureaucracy then. And considering the Depression was gearing up, I think they had bigger things to worry about.I wasn't referring to that sign, but the crappy ones they put up now.Hell, by that standard half my family are living antiques.I'm older than that.

[MacGyver1968]

Hell, by that standard half my family are living antiques.

My neighborhood in Dallas, (which is a pretty young city) was built in the early 1920's and now has been designated a "Historical District" which is funny to me.

My friends in London, and other ancient cities, are probably laughing...they would consider those buildings to be "new". :)

[one_raven]

A friend is buying my wife a T-Shirt which reads:

I am the grammarian of whom you were warned by your mother.

I think it's great.

[Orleander]

LOL, to whom. That's funny.

[CutsieMarie89]

Why did it bother them that much? When I see mistakes I just mentally correct them and move on. I don't get why it bothers people so much that they feel the need to deface a sign.

[Myles]

60 is enough to classed as antique I believe.

I understood that it was 10 years for California and 100+ for Europe.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Why did it bother them that much? When I see mistakes I just mentally correct them and move on. I don't get why it bothers people so much that they feel the need to deface a sign.Because it's a GOVERNMENT sign. The government can't be bothered to fix a glaring error in a sign that's going to be read by thousands or maybe millions of people, many of whom are foreign tourists who are going to go home and tell everybody in their country what they think of America. What does that tell us about the quality of the rest of their work? Can we trust the FDA, the cops, the army?

Why is it that I have NEVER seen a collection of government signs with errors from England, Australia, or the other anglophone countries? Because there aren't enough government signs with errors to fill up one good e-mail spam?

We expect it in stores, gas stations, churches, anywhere the work is done privately without a lot of oversight, and quite possibly by people who are well-meaning but not well-educated. We don't expect it from the bloody government. They have all those people sitting around doing next to nothing, couldn't they take turns proofreading each other's signs?

Yes, I'm talking mostly about contemporary signs. I understand that the sign in the O.P. is very old and special, and if it wasn't corrected originally it borders on vandalism to mark it up now. If I saw it my reaction would be to giggle. But then I'd do the arithmetic and realize that it was erected in the late 1940s, when governments in America were already bloated with staff and overflowing with money. And then I'd be mad.

No, I would probably not fix it. But I can understand why someone else did.

[Orleander]

Can you imagine the outcry if the gvmt spent time and money on fixing grammatical errors on signs?

I understand people seeing it and it bothering them. I wonder about someone that it bothers THIS much. Seriously! "haunted by the perversity"!!!

....The misspelled word "emense" was not fixed, Deck wrote, because "I was reluctant to disfigure the sign any further. ... Still, I think I shall be haunted by that perversity, emense, in my train-whistle-blighted dreams tonight."....

[CutsieMarie89]

That's stupid. The only time I expect grammar to be perfect is well. Never I never expect grammar to be perfect. Because the English language is already ridiculously complicated enough. But that's because grammar mistakes don't bother me that much. Chances are I probably don't even notice unless its glaringly obvious. Except open quotations "those bother me a lot.