The Thing about UFOs...

[EndLightEnd]

Ok if you have any common sense then you realize that UFOs are real and are everywhere. Thousands of sightings every year now from the common laymen to highly experienced pilots to astronauts.

1.) These are extraterrestrial in nature.
OR
2.) They are man-made technology and our govt has been lying for decades.

Take your pick, but you must choose (both if you want). This can no longer just be ignored.
Think about it and REALIZE the consequences of this seemingly simple choice.

[(Q)]

What about the many other options you've not presented? Why must we choose between two very silly options when so many more are available?

You clearly have no common sense.

[cosmictraveler]

And yet not one piece of actual hard, physical evidence exists. Isn't that odd?

[EndLightEnd]

What other options are there then? Youve not presented any.

[kenworth]

there are thousands of other options

for example: someone got a small piece of cake in their eye

[kenworth]

belief in ufo's and belief in exterterrestial life are completely different things.
one streches credibility to incredible lengths the other is fairly reasonable.

[Nonsense]

Moving my post here:

I recently went to a conference with the director of NASA's JPL. He simply said that he does not believe in UFOs. However he did add that this not mean that the possibility of intelligent life somewhere else is null.

I really don't feel like writing verbatim his reasoning, go find a video of him at the World Affairs Council and hear it for yourself.

[EndLightEnd]

Ok what about the mass ufo sightings then? I agree there is no hard evidence, this is in part the governments fault. There are only videos and testimonies but this IS good enough for me considering the sheer number of sightings and these people are CHANGED afterwards.

Some articles on mass sightings.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/GeneralSightings.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-470579/UFO-sightings-bring-town-standstill.html

http://www.rense.com/ufo/battleofla.htm

Swamp gas refracting off Venus right?

[Read-Only]

What other options are there then? Youve not presented any.

I'll give you one - and the reason I haven't voted in your silly poll is because it's not there and it's the ONLY choice I'd accept: a combination of man-made and natural phenomenon.
Of course UFOs are real - there are lots of things seen that aren't identified. But to carry it to YOUR illogical conclusion with no evidence whatsoever is pretty brainless.

[EndLightEnd]

My evidence is the testimonies of THOUSANDS of people.

Testimonies are good in court, arent they?

[Nonsense]

My evidence is the testimonies of THOUSANDS of people.

Testimonies are good in court, arent they?

Not without hard evidence. And all those testimonials and videos and photos always make me laugh. Every photo and video is shittiest thing ever done by a person with Parkinson's apparently.

[(Q)]

My evidence is the testimonies of THOUSANDS of people.

Testimonies are good in court, arent they?

Ah, I see now, you simply believe everything anyone tells you. Why didn't you just state that in the first place and saved us the trouble of responding?

[Read-Only]

My evidence is the testimonies of THOUSANDS of people.

Testimonies are good in court, arent they?

Testimonies are a LONG way from being evidence. And eye-witnesses have always been shown to be highly unreliable.

And we're talking about science here, not courts of law and science NEVER, EVER accepts testimonies - just cold, hard evidence.

[EndLightEnd]

No one has yet provided an explanation for the mass ufo sightings...

Anyone care to take a stab?

Heres a very recent mass sighting, happened in 2008.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-062008-ufo-texas-jun20,0,7636888.story

[(Q)]

No one has yet provided an explanation for the mass ufo sightings...

Anyone care to take a stab?

Attention? Hysteria? Gullibility?

All three?

[EndLightEnd]

Attention? Hysteria? Gullibility?

All three?

Ok, yes, we will just assume hundreds of people became insane at the exact same time at different parts of the city.:confused:

[clusteringflux]

Actually there is radar evidence of something that's so far unexplained/able in the sky durring the Stephenville sighting. The PDF report is linked somewhere on this forum.

[(Q)]

Ok, yes, we will just assume hundreds of people became insane at the exact same time at different parts of the city.:confused:

Enter the fourth:

Profit.

[Read-Only]

Enter the fourth:

Profit.

My vote is strongly in favor of the third - gullibility.

And another big one is just simply wanting to believe in the nonsense to start with.

[electrafixtion]

ANYBODY that denies the basic premise that UFOs are REAL and controlled either by occupants or remotely is a complete moron. DON'T waste your time even responding.

There was once a goldfish named henry that believed in UFOs. Thing is, Henry didn't NEED to BELIEVE in UFOs because UFOs are unquestionably real. Mass sightings and 400 plus independent camcorders filming the same unidentified flying objects in public spectacles is PROOF. If you need more evidence, go watch some cartoons and leave the scientific exploration of the phenomenon to those capable of...well, SCIENCE.

[Nonsense]

I will say this again. NASA's JPL director said that the idea of UFOs coming to Earth is BS.

[Read-Only]

ANYBODY that denies the basic premise that UFOs are REAL and controlled either by occupants or remotely is a complete moron. DON'T waste your time even responding.

There was once a goldfish named henry that believed in UFOs. Thing is, Henry didn't NEED to BELIEVE in UFOs because UFOs are unquestionably real. Mass sightings and 400 plus independent camcorders filming the same unidentified flying objects in public spectacles is PROOF. If you need more evidence, go watch some cartoons and leave the scientific exploration of the phenomenon to those capable of...well, SCIENCE.

Oh, my. Yet another nutty woo-woo steps forward.:rolleyes: Egad, what morons these true believers are!!! It's no wonder that scam artists are able to make so much money - there are fools running around everywhere who will believe anything!!:D

[electrafixtion]

I will say this again. NASA's JPL director said that the idea of UFOs coming to Earth is BS.

Maybe that's why they are all over NASA footage...:shrug:

[synthesizer-patel]

Years ago I was much more interested in the subject - but then I got into the reading material and realised that almost to a man, the people writing books, publishing magazines, videos etc on the subject are complete charlatans out to make a buck on people's (often willing) gullibility.

I have see some wierd shit in the skies though - such as three large glowing balls approximately the size of the moon (i.e relative size as seen from the earth), one behind the other, travelling sliently at an altitude of around 250m at a ground speed of around 100m/s.

My guess is that it was something like ball lightening (we'd had thunderstorms the day before and the day after)

[electrafixtion]

Oh, my. Yet another nutty woo-woo steps forward.:rolleyes: Egad, what morons these true believers are!!! It's no wonder that scam artists are able to make so much money - there are fools running around everywhere who will believe anything!!:D


nice try troll. typical:rolleyes:

[Nonsense]

Maybe that's why they are all over NASA footage...:shrug:

Where?

[Read-Only]

nice try troll. typical:rolleyes:

It was no "try" - it was the truth. Want to buy some beautiful swamp land in the mountains of Utah? Apparently you're weak-minded enough to believe anything. You've already proved it !:D

[EndLightEnd]

Enter the fourth:

Profit.

And who exactly profited from these mass sightings? If anything I would say these peoples reputation decreased, not the other way around.

[Nonsense]

And who exactly profited from these mass sightings? If anything I would say these peoples reputation decreased, not the other way around.

Maybe the news stations for example.

[EndLightEnd]

Where?

Nasa STS videos.

The Tether video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox6BtwDmm3c
Now if all this is just "space junk" as NASA has claimed why are the astronauts not dead already.

Ring of Lights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJyuQVIFdKo&feature=related

And for the finale, a NASA STS video which clearly shows intelligent control and change of direction to an incoming object.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0XnDJKdWo&feature=related

[EndLightEnd]

It was no "try" - it was the truth. Want to buy some beautiful swamp land in the mountains of Utah? Apparently you're weak-minded enough to believe anything. You've already proved it !:D

Here are some other weak-minded individuals for you.

"I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth."
---President Harry S. Truman, 1950.

"Of course it is possible that UFO's really do contain aliens as many people believe, and the government is hushing it up. I wouldn't like to comment on that."
---Comment by Stephen Hawking (world renowned astrophysicist) on C Span Television. Stephen Hawking was the guest lecturer at the second Millennium Evening at the White House on March 6, 1998.

"In the firm belief that the American public deserves a better explanation than that thus far given by the Air Force, I strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation of the UFO phenomena. I think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding UFOs, and to produce the greatest possible enlightenment of the subject."
---President Gerald Ford

"While flying with several other USAF pilots over Germany in 1957, we sighted numerous radiant flying discs above us. We couldn't tell how high they were. We couldn't get anywhere near their altitude."
"While working with a camera crew supervising flight testing of advanced aircraft at Edward's Air Force Base, California, the camera crew filmed the landing of a strange disc object that flew in over their heads and landed on a dry lake nearby. A camera crewman approached the saucer, it rose up above the area and flew off at a speed faster than any known aircraft."
---NASA astronaut, L. Gordon Cooper.

Shall I continue? Or do you get the point yet?

[Norsefire]

I most certainly believe that there is other intelligent life in the universe; I mean, what are the odds that there ISN'T? Trillions of planets, it just can't be possible that Earth is the only planet with intelligent life.

That being said, I'm not sure if I believe this intelligent life is visiting Earth. Perhaps, perhaps not. I do not know.

[Nonsense]

Nasa STS videos.

The Tether video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox6BtwDmm3c
Now if all this is just "space junk" as NASA has claimed why are the astronauts not dead already.

Ring of Lights.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJyuQVIFdKo&feature=related

And for the finale, a NASA STS video which clearly shows intelligent control and change of direction to an incoming object.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0XnDJKdWo&feature=related

Thanks for the most grainy, hullabaloo vids ever.

[shaman_]

Ok if your not a dumbass then you realize that UFOs are real and are everywhere. Thousands of sightings every year now from the common laymen to highly experienced pilots to astronauts.

1.) These are extraterrestrials.
OR
2.) They are man-made technology and our govt has been lying for decades.

Take your pick, but you must choose (both if you want). This can no longer just be ignored.Interesting that with all these sightings we still have the most pitiful evidence in regards to video footage. With so many sightings, and many witness accounts where people actually get up close to aliens or craft, you would think we would have something better than shaky footage of a light in the distance. There have been millions of video cameras made in the last few decades and we still see old photos like the Billy Meier ones among the best evidence.

So many sightings and yet the best evidence is unreliable testimony, shaky video footage of a light in the distance and old photos of garbage bin lids thrown in the air. ..

[Read-Only]

I most certainly believe that there is other intelligent life in the universe; I mean, what are the odds that there ISN'T? Trillions of planets, it just can't be possible that Earth is the only planet with intelligent life.

That being said, I'm not sure if I believe this intelligent life is visiting Earth. Perhaps, perhaps not. I do not know.

Finally!! Something that I can agree with.

[EndLightEnd]

I most certainly believe that there is other intelligent life in the universe; I mean, what are the odds that there ISN'T? Trillions of planets, it just can't be possible that Earth is the only planet with intelligent life.

That being said, I'm not sure if I believe this intelligent life is visiting Earth. Perhaps, perhaps not. I do not know.

Were talking about UFOs. Are you saying you accept the phenomena as real?

I think people are afraid to come out and admit this because it shatters their current reality. Either ETs are here, or the govt has been lying for decades about space capabilities, or BOTH.

[Read-Only]

Were talking about UFOs. Are you saying you accept the phenomena as real?

I think people are afraid to come out and admit this because it shatters their current reality.

That's a pretty silly statement. It doesn't scare me nor anyone I know.

Either ETs are here, or the govt has been lying for decades about space capabilities, or BOTH.

Now that's an even sillier statement!!! In no way does it have to be an "or" situation. That's about the worst logic I've ever seen anyone use.:bugeye:

The REAL truth is that you, and people like you, want so badly for it to be true that you are willing to buy into bad logic, hoaxes, testimonials - anything that supports your crazy desire.

[Read-Only]

Instead of all the back and forth on this topic, let's take the emotional aspects out of it("I wanna believe", "the government is covering up", "it MUST be real!", etc.).

Instead, let's try looking at "The thing about UFOs" from a logical, unemotional point of view.

Everyone agrees that there are things that people have seen in the skies that they weren't able to identified. So that in itself simply means that UFOs are real. But making the extraordinary leap from there to having them piloted by ETs is another matter altogether. Carl Sagan is quoted as saying that,"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Do we have extraordinary evidence that ET's are visiting? No. In fact, aside from a bunch of poor quality videos and testimonials, we have NO evidence at all - not even poor evidence.

For the record, let me state that I and many others believe that ET life is highly likely given the number of galaxies, stars in each of those galaxies and the probability that many of those stars are orbited by planets that would be suitable for some type of life.

So that brings us to this: why would the be visiting us? To spy on our technology? Very, very highly unlikely since their technology would have to be vastly superior to ours just in order to get them here.

A study in anthropology? I suppose that's possible - but if life IS spread across the cosmos, they've already seen plenty of it and there wouldn't be much that would make us special.

Amusement? That's also a possibility. And perhaps it's as someone suggested that it's just ET teens taking the family warp ship out for a weekend spin across space. That would make just as much sense as any other idea - which still isn't much.

And if it is ET flying those things around, what could they possibly be afraid of that prevents them from coming into even closer contact with us? They would certainly be aware that we have no vehicles of weapons that could even come close to presenting any sort of danger to them.

Along the same lines, they never attack anything. They just seem to buzz around for little while and leave. In fact, they never (contrary to the claims of so-called abductees) seem to do anything at all. Just toying with us? That seems an unlikely use of resources and time.

Can anyone else add any possibilities to the list? Please keep in mind to leave emotional baggage out of it, there's plenty of THAT flying around already, too.

[phlogistician]

I voted for man made, but your poll should have included natural phenomena.

[Read-Only]

I voted for man made, but your poll should have included natural phenomena.

Exactly what I suggested, To be more precise, I said the ONLY choice I'd vote for was " both manmade and natural phenomena."

But he's WAY to far over the "true believers" edge to even consider anything so rational.:rolleyes:

[Enmos]

I agree there is no hard evidence, this is in part the governments fault.

Apparently you presume there is any.

[Enmos]

A study in anthropology? I suppose that's possible - but if life IS spread across the cosmos, they've already seen plenty of it and there wouldn't be much that would make us special.

You don't know whether or not we are "special", it could be.
And they may be studying other lifeforms (as well).. why assume we would be the species they're interested in ?

Not that I even remotely believe in ET's visiting us...

[EndLightEnd]

The REAL truth is that you, and people like you, want so badly for it to be true that you are willing to buy into bad logic, hoaxes, testimonials - anything that supports your crazy desire.

Hah you say that like I always believed in UFOs, like you KNOW me. I was a skeptic once, until I actually researched the subject.

Are the quotes from the top govt officials not enough? There are more...

I find the explanation for natural phenomena inadequate. Please explain what natural phenomena cause the orb of light in the third video I posted to suddenly change direction to make way for an incoming object?

And even though you said you wouldnt be scared, if a little grey alien appeared in front of you right now you would FREAK the fuck out. I would too.
Anger is the first product of fear, and I see that all the time on these boards. Thats why I said people are scared of this idea, this IS a powerful idea. It shatters realities.

[Oli]

Are the quotes from the top govt officials not enough? There are more...
Ooh "top government officials".
Like they're not actually human and never make mistakes or lie...
I believe them. :rolleyes:

[clusteringflux]

Hah you say that like I always believed in UFOs, like you KNOW me. I was a skeptic once, until I actually researched the subject.

Are the quotes from the top govt officials not enough? There are more...

I find the explanation for natural phenomena inadequate. Please explain what natural phenomena cause the orb of light in the third video I posted to suddenly change direction to make way for an incoming object?

And even though you said you wouldnt be scared, if a little grey alien appeared in front of you right now you would FREAK the fuck out. I would too.
Anger is the first product of fear, and I see that all the time on these boards. Thats why I said people are scared of this idea, this IS a powerful idea. It shatters realities.


What do you think would be the best method of obtaining physical evidence of manned UFOs?
That is the only thing that can sway a person like Read, who as spent their life in a lab.
Government officials often times believe in god. In the eyes of current science, they're just as bat shit crazy as you.

My interest in the subject is : Why do so many people believe in it? Why is the mainstream media pushing it? And what a hoax of mass proportion can do to a society (provided it is one)?

Personally, I feel, on some level,it's just another way to express dislike of the US government. That's all the rage these days.

[EndLightEnd]

Ooh "top government officials".
Like they're not actually human and never make mistakes or lie...
I believe them. :rolleyes:

True, it may be mistakes. But that would be one persistant mistake which has continued to happen over decades.

True, they may be lying. But what would they have to lie about if not UFOs?

[EndLightEnd]

What do you think would be the best method of obtaining physical evidence of manned UFOs?
That is the only thing that can sway a person like Read, who as spent their life in a lab.
Government officials often times believe in god. In the eyes of current science, they're just as bat shit crazy as you.

My interest in the subject is : Why do so many people believe in it? Why is the mainstream media pushing it? And what a hoax of mass proportion can do to a society (provided it is one)?

Personally, I feel, on some level,it's just another way to express dislike of the US government. That's all the rage these days.

Unfortunately there isnt really anyway to obtain physical evidence short of a UFO crashing in your backyard. Anywhere else the govt will get to it first.

Thats a good point about belief in god and govt officials, but I dont think Im crazy.(But then again, crazy people never do!:D)

Mainstream media pushes the idea to flood the market with disinformation. The best way to cover something up is not to deny it, but flood the information channels with static and false information. The media is the perfect conduit to reach millions of already brainwashed americans to implant ideas so when they hear about this they have a preconditioned response ready.

[Oli]

True, it may be mistakes. But that would be one persistant mistake which has continued to happen over decades.
History is littered with persistent mistakes.
God, psychic powers, phlogiston, ether....

True, they may be lying. But what would they have to lie about if not UFOs?
Politicians lie. Full stop. It's reflex.

[EndLightEnd]

History is littered with persistent mistakes.
God, psychic powers, phlogiston, ether....


Politicians lie. Full stop. It's reflex.

These are not only persistent, but also consistent mistakes. Consistent over years and across viewpoints.

Why do they lie non-stop is my question. What are they hiding? Why do people put up with obvious deception? (because thats the way it is, is NOT an acceptable answer)

[Oli]

These are not only persistent, but also consistent mistakes. Consistent over years and across viewpoints.
Yup. The fun of the human psyche.

Why do they lie non-stop is my question.
Because they're politicians.

What are they hiding?
They're not necessarily hiding anything, it's just that being in the political field "trains" you to not give straight answers.

Why do people put up with obvious deception? (because thats the way it is, is NOT an acceptable answer)
Because most people want AN answer even if it's not real. Then thay have someone to "blame for it all".

[EndLightEnd]

Yup. The fun of the human psyche.

Ok, but if we realize our mistakes, and make no effort to learn from them...What does that say about our leaders? Im talking in direct regards to the UFO phenomena.

They're not necessarily hiding anything, it's just that being in the political field "trains" you to not give straight answers.

I value directness and honesty, as most people do. Why then is there a persistent need to "train" politicians to lie if there is nothing to hide?

Because most people want AN answer even if it's not real. Then thay have someone to "blame for it all".

This is an unfortunate truth, but truth nonetheless. I would like REAL answers though, not fabricated ones to make me feel cozy at night.

I would rather be shocked and know the truth rather then be blissful in my ignorance. I cant say the same for most people, most people would rather be dumb and happy. This also is an unfortunate truth.

[Oli]

Ok, but if we realize our mistakes, and make no effort to learn from them...What does that say about our leaders? Im talking in direct regards to the UFO phenomena.
You've lost me on this.
A large portion of any population will have "theories" that they hold dear and refuse to listen to reason on.

I value directness and honesty, as most people do. Why then is there a persistent need to "train" politicians to lie if there is nothing to hide?
"Train"? I suppose you could phrase it like that. How about: because anyrthing a politician says can, and usually is, used against him sometime later in their career.

This is an unfortunate truth, but truth nonetheless. I would like REAL answers though, not fabricated ones to make me feel cozy at night.
Yup, but some people can't (or won;t) accept "we don't know yet" as an answer.

I would rather be shocked and know the truth rather then be blissful in my ignorance. I cant say the same for most people, most people would rather be dumb and happy. This also is an unfortunate truth.
If we're talking about "UFO" as aliens as a truth how would that affect 90% of the world's population?
They still have to go to work, pay the bills, feed the kids.
It's a non-issue.

[EndLightEnd]

You've lost me on this.
A large portion of any population will have "theories" that they hold dear and refuse to listen to reason on.

No doubt. But this is theory which has pervaded through time, has shown up in different civilizations on opposite sides of the earth, and people have directly observed (you can credit some of the sightings to error, but not ALL of them)


"Train"? I suppose you could phrase it like that.

Your words, not mine.


If we're talking about "UFO" as aliens as a truth how would that affect 90% of the world's population?
They still have to go to work, pay the bills, feed the kids.
It's a non-issue.

Materialistic issues to distract us. Fed by the media. Reinforced by the media.
All the crap we have today is not NECESSARY for survival. People are robots being programmed for specific tasks. We are taught we cannot survive in society without schooling. We are taught to dislike any idea which does not fit the current paradigm.

[Reiku]

If ''they'' are aliens to us, what are we to them?

Once someone has answered that question, re-ask, ''do aliens exist?''

[Oli]

No doubt. But this is theory which has pervaded through time, has shown up in different civilizations on opposite sides of the earth, and people have directly observed (you can credit some of the sightings to error, but not ALL of them)
So dragons, fairies, pixies etc are real also by this logic.

Your words, not mine.
Oops yes. :o

Materialistic issues to distract us. Fed by the media. Reinforced by the media.
All the crap we have today is not NECESSARY for survival. People are robots being programmed for specific tasks. We are taught we cannot survive in society without schooling. We are taught to dislike any idea which does not fit the current paradigm.
That would be why (especially in the USA) auto-didacts are so revered....:rolleyes:

[EndLightEnd]

So dragons, fairies, pixies etc are real also by this logic.


There are not thousands of sightings every year for dragons, pixies, or any other creature you can imagine. Just lights in the sky. Just UFOs.

[Oli]

There are not thousands of sightings every year for dragons, pixies, or any other creature you can imagine. Just lights in the sky. Just UFOs.

No, but there were.
And there are significant numbers of fairy/ pixie/ whatever sightings still happening.
Even ghosts, and Elvis.

[Reiku]

Oli, you yourself admitted to observing what seemed to be a UFO of substantial proportions?

What does it take nowadays, when a naked image seen by two eyes are no longer proof enough? And don't think i am talking about the slight hand of a magicians trick, but how rather these lights perform their remarkable stunts on the magicians darkened stage, mammoths to us in size, and Goliath in nature and performance?

[[edited]]--typo

[Read-Only]

Hah you say that like I always believed in UFOs, like you KNOW me. I was a skeptic once, until I actually researched the subject.

"Like you always believed?" How in the world did you make THAT huge leap?:bugeye: Thing is, there's no specific amount of time required for someone to become a loony.


I find the explanation for natural phenomena inadequate. Please explain what natural phenomena cause the orb of light in the third video I posted to suddenly change direction to make way for an incoming object?

Yet another more stupidity from you. I specifically said the answer would have to include that AND manmade objects.

And even though you said you wouldnt be scared, if a little grey alien appeared in front of you right now you would FREAK the fuck out. I would too.

I have no doubt YOU would be. I would not unless there were sparks flying from his head or he was carrying an obvious weapon.

Anger is the first product of fear, and I see that all the time on these boards. Thats why I said people are scared of this idea, this IS a powerful idea. It shatters realities.

Perhaps you see some fear on the topic from some few people (I don't) and certainly not from me. I'm having a big laugh out of this and all at your expense.

[Oli]

Oli, you yourself admitted to observing what seemed to be a UFO of substantial proportions?
Yep, so what.I've seen a man sawn in half and I know that was trick, but it still looked real.

What does it take nowadays, when a naked image seen by two eyes are no longer proof enough?
You accept eyesight as proof?
So straws really do bend when you put them in water?
How about this: a few years I went to one of my usual airshows. Next to me is some small kid talking to a US Navy fighter pilot and the kid asked "What's that flying now?" The pilot had a good look and said "Sukhoi 32".
Perfect weather, broad daylight and the aircraft was less than half a mile away.
Unfortunately it turned to be (as I told both of them) a Sukhoi 27UB, similar, but in no way the same.
Now tell me that a "naked image seen by two eyes" should be accepted as proof.
Human senses are easily deceived, not least because people see what they believe rather than believe what they see.

[Reiku]

Eyesight can be proof, and I already explained, i am not talking about trickery. I am talking about a phenomena that seems to be beyond trickery.

You should have picked up on that one from my post.

[Reiku]

What audacious person can trick the UFO phenomenon? Who can ascend bright lights into the sky, make them perfom impossible tasks, before seeing them move away from each other, which no search light can artificially create?

Who can seriously, in these days and ages, honestly say that the Roswell Incident never really happened, despite the number of witnesses? Who can say any incident did not happen, which was mere illusion, or group dilluional optical histeria?

Nonesense.

[Oli]

No, eyesight is never "proof".
Eyewitnesses are the lowest order of evidence available.

[Reiku]

Now, the military may have somethin to do with it. As i reported, my hometown witnessed itself strane lights in the sky that defied all resonable explanation; but, my hometown is a notorious mitaria-based area... is that a link? I don't know.

All i know, is that these things are real, and should never be shrugged off, by merely saying ''strange shit happens.''

[Reiku]

Oli-

You are wrong. Eyesight is a valid proof in physics, especially when more than one scientist observes it. I can name countless experiements that work on such concepts.

[Oli]

Oli-

You are wrong. Eyesight is a valid proof in physics, especially when more than one scientist observes it. I can name countless experiements that work on such concepts.

No, eyesight may indicate that there's something that needs investigating.
Eyesight on its own is not proof.
Name the experiments...

[Reiku]

And that is why UFO's need to be investigated with an open mind, because the eyesight, or rather, what is CERTIANLY observed, begs the question itself.

Name an experiment? Fine... hold on.

[Reiku]

Home
UK News
MADELEINE
World News
Politics
Business
Money
Comment
Living
Strange News
Weather
Traffic
News In...Video
Live TV/Events
Pictures
Podcast
RecommendedSky News Quiz
Sky Sports Site
Sky Showbiz Site
Lunchtime Live
ExtraRadio
About Sky News
Sky News Panel
Blogs
Feedback
Contact Us
ToolsText Alerts (SMS)
Desktop Alerts
Vista Gadget
Web Feeds

More from Sky News on Channel 501
Site Web Search: Advanced Search Browse Archive Could Time Travel Actually Be Possible?
Updated: 05:51, Thursday August 16, 2007

Scientists claim to have broken the ultimate speed record - by making photons travel faster than light.
Exceeding the speed of light, 186,000 miles per second, is supposed to be completely impossible.


....................


This is a claim, by two scientists who observed a photon tunnel through a spatial and temporal barrier in the fabric of the continuum. Many scientists do not deny their observation.

[Oli]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
What a poor choice.
They SAW this happen?
Or the instruments they used recorded it?
Their eyesight was the arbiter, or laboratory equipment that wasn't sunject to optical illusion and preconceptions.

[Reiku]

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.
What a poor choice.
They SAW this happen?
Or the instruments they used recorded it?
Their eyesight was the arbiter, or laboratory equipment that wasn't sunject to optical illusion and preconceptions.

Bad choice? Are we going to pick and choose all of sudden?

Get back to reality Oli. The phenomena is real, and it is observed. Science, and at that, many scientists observe phenomena with their aparatus' which may require more observations, but science usually accepts it when a scientist claims to have seen an event.

Why? Because scientits don't tend to make these things up.

[Oli]

Bad choice? Are we going to pick and choose all of sudden?

Get back to reality Oli. The phenomena is real, and it is observed. Science, and at that, many scientists observe phenomena with their aparatus' which may require more observations, but science usually accepts it when a scientist claims to have seen an event.

Why? Because scientits don't tend to make these things up.

I'm not picking and choosing: you claimed to have examples of EYESIGHT being proof.
That wasn't one.

[EndLightEnd]

Yet another more stupidity from you. I specifically said the answer would have to include that AND manmade objects.

You avoided the question. Explain what is going on in the third video I posted if not intelligent control of a craft.


I have no doubt YOU would be. I would not unless there were sparks flying from his head or he was carrying an obvious weapon.

Blatant lie to cover your insecurities. EVERYONE would freak out to an extent if confronted with an extraterrestrial (especially since you do not even believe in them, how would you reconcile that?), you cannot deny this.
And things would have to be blatantly obvious for you wouldnt they?
Unable to read between the lines you are.


I'm having a big laugh out of this and all at your expense.

Well thats the difference between you and me I suppose. You laugh and live at other peoples expense. Good going, good way to live your life.:rolleyes:

[Reiku]

It was. 'THEY' observed this phenomena.

What part of ''they'' or ''observed'' did you now understand?

[Oli]

It was. 'THEY' observed this phenomena.

What part of ''they'' or ''observed'' did you now understand?

You are wrong. Eyesight is a valid proof in physics, especially when more than one scientist observes it. I can name countless experiements that work on such concepts.

Keep trying.
Their instruments obvserved it.
They watched the instruments.
Eyesight proved nothing.
They couldn't even see the damn thing with their eyes...

[Reiku]

Sorry, but when did instruments not being a viable tool?

You are clutching onto straws. Give it up, unless of course, you suddenly have proof that instruments have a mind of their own, and will lie in a result?

Whatever oli. What the fuck ever.

[Reiku]

A scientific intrument, is considered an observational tool.

Learn some science, before commenting on it.

[Oli]

Instruments are a valid tool.
Your contention was eyesight.
Make your mind up.
Instruments record, then others can see the results.

[Oli]

A scientific intrument, is considered an observational tool.
Agreed, but they are not eyesight.

Learn some science, before commenting on it.
Ho ho ho.
The way you have?
10% science and 90% belief?

[EndLightEnd]

Lets stay on topic. I agree eyesight alone is not evidence enough. But I feel that the sheer number of sightings from people from all walks of life counts for something.

We can argue all day about what they are and get no where.

There is NO PROOF.

I just want people to acknowledge this as real phenomena which deserves more attention than our govt is giving it. (Or perhaps it has their full attention and they are not telling us.) Just because you have not seen one yourself does not exclude it from reality.

I have never known anyone who has observed a UFO until recently when my buddy (who is an aerospace engineer) observed one on his drive to Colorado. He described an object which made a turn smaller than 90 degree, and changed colors in doing so, from blue to red he said.
He initially brushed it off as a meteor (because there was a meteor shower that night) but when I asked him if ANY of the other meteors he observed changed color OR changed direction and he said NOTHING was like what he saw. This is a guy who builds and designs spaceships.

This fits in perfectly with what I was saying on how the media conditions us to just ignore these things, and immediately find alternate (and more complicated) explanations than the simple truth, IT WAS A UFO.

[Reiku]

Agreed, but they are not eyesight.


Ho ho ho.
The way you have?
10% science and 90% belief?

At least i understand that scientific methods cannot answer for a man mde object as we have observed these strange phenomena. At least i don't believe it is some mass-trick (and god knows how that would be pulled off.) At least i don't beleieve there is some kind of mass-histeria, involved with such a proposed disllusionary event(s).

Take a step back, weight the evidence properly, then propose proper questions. Otherwise, you are following theyellow brick road to again, the over-zealous factor of not taking in the complexities of what has been talked about today.

[Oli]

I just want people to acknowledge this as real phenomena which deserves more attention than our govt is giving it.
How many government stuudies have there been?
Hundreds round the world...

This fits in perfectly with what I was saying on how the media conditions us to just ignore these things, and immediately find alternate (and more complicated) explanations than the simple truth, IT WAS A UFO.
It was something.
But a one-off sighting (no instruments to actually record what happened (re: eye witness reliability).
Speeds, angles, altitudes etc....
How do you take it any further than that?
They don't turn up to order and far too many people speculate beyond the observed facts.

[EndLightEnd]

How many government stuudies have there been?
Hundreds round the world...


lol. Why would I trust a govt study when they are the ones hiding it? :shrug:

[Oli]

lol. Why would I trust a govt study when they are the ones hiding it? :shrug:

So you're assuming
A) there actually IS something to it and
B) there's a conspiracy (world-wide) to hide it?

:shrug:

[electrafixtion]

So you're assuming
A) there actually IS something to it and
B) there's a conspiracy (world-wide) to hide it?

:shrug:


You sure post a great deal in response to matters presented on a subject you know NOTHING about. Russia, France & Italy have all proclaimed on numerous public occasions, via official channels of communication that the UFO phenomenon is VERY real. They have done costly and extensive research on the matter. They have released countless formerly classified film footage documents that they have concluded years back proved the existence of UFOs as intelligently controlled craft. The former retired Defense Minister of Canada himself has made public the immense amount of research the Canadians have done as a result of all too convincing evidence that UFOs are VERY REAL. The pope himself along with the official stance of the Catholic Church recently proclaimed a reclassification that aliens could not any longer be classified as demonic. Friend, you are so shallow and predetermined as to the FACT that UFOs are real, it's a waste of time conversing with you. You're ignorance on the matter clearly qualifies the legitimacy of your position. You have none.

[Reiku]

Not to mention, people with reputable jobs and experience witness these things, with usually their entire lifes-work on the line.

[Oli]

You sure post a great deal in response to matters presented on a subject you know NOTHING about.
Assumption number one....
Over forty years actually smart arse.

Russia, France & Italy have all proclaimed on numerous public occasions, via official channels of communication that the UFO phenomenon is VERY real. Blah blah etc.
Yup, and then showed nothing....

The pope himself along with the official stance of the Catholic Church recently proclaimed a reclassification that aliens could not any longer be classified as demonic.
Yeah and the pope also says god exists...

Friend, you are so shallow and predetermined as to the FACT that UFOs are real, it's a waste of time conversing with you. You're ignorance on the matter clearly qualifies the legitimacy of your position. You have none.
The FACT is that there is something as yet unexplained. (And is given far too many explanations with no evidentiary back-up). Anything else is speculation.
Um I'm predetermined that they're real?
Or is your syntax as bad as your grammar and reasoning and you mean "not real"?

[Oli]

Not to mention, people with reputable jobs and experience witness these things, with usually their entire lifes-work on the line.

Reputable jobs and experience we've already debunked as witnesses with the USN pilot at the air show...
Life's work on the line?
Oh yeah?
How often do people lose their jobs for saying they've seen a UFO?

[electrafixtion]

Assumption number one....
Over forty years actually smart arse.


Yup, and then showed nothing....


Yeah and the pope also says god exists...


The FACT is that there is something as yet unexplained. (And is given far too many explanations with no evidentiary back-up). Anything else is speculation.
Um I'm predetermined that they're real?
Or is your syntax as bad as your grammar and reasoning and you mean "not real"?


You're just a troll. You have said nothing of value so far and have refuted the fact that UFOs are very real on no credible level.

[Reiku]

Yes, i never had him down as a troll of evidence, until today.

[Oli]

You're just a troll. You have said nothing of value so far and have refuted the fact that UFOs are very real on no credible level.
I don't have to refute the "fact" since the "fact" has not been shown to be factual.
You have to demonstrate that there is something factual other than delusion, misperception etc etc.

Yes, i never had him down as a troll of evidence, until today.
Then you've never really read my posts.
No evidence = waste of time.

[electrafixtion]

Another fact that debunkers and pseudo skeptics alike cannot refute is the tremendous amount independent and unbiased film and video footage analysis that's been done to date with respect to UFOs and the evidence that supports them. Just like the considerable body of NASA footage that independent experts with NOTHING to gain have validated as real and untampered with. Some of these UFOs are in excess of 1 mile across. All this footage is readily available via public channels. It's just too close minded for any individual claiming to possess legitimate scientific curiosity to write it off as BS. They are the BS and that's beyond obvious.

[Reiku]

It cannot be refuted, due to the impervious, and might i add, dogmatic nature of people like Oli, who do not weigh the evidence, and refute insideously people who are in respectable positions.

[Oli]

You mean the unbiased footage that's misinterpreted constantly by the "no actual evidence but I believe anyway" woo woos?
Oh THAT footage.
And you're posting on a science forum?

[Oli]

It cannot be refuted, due to the impervious, and might i add, dogmatic nature of people like Oli, who do not weigh the evidence, and refute insideously people who are in respectable positions.

Weigh the evidence?
There is NO evidence.
I've had forty plus years looking at this stuff.
Refute insidiously people in respectable positions?
Oh wow, we's got a "more important job" than me, he must be right?
Holding that position makes him automatically infallible and immune to questioning?

[Read-Only]

lol. Why would I trust a govt study when they are the ones hiding it? :shrug:

“ Originally Posted by EndLightEnd
I just want people to acknowledge this as real phenomena which deserves more attention than our govt is giving it. ”

And you can't even see hor irrational your thinking is!!:rolleyes:

With one one breath you say the government is not giving it the attention it needs, and with the next you say you wouldn't trust them anyway. :D

Just what DO you want? A whole bunch of people like yourself to go zipping around the world to check out every little report of a sighting? And what do think that would accomplish???

[shaman_]

Another fact that debunkers and pseudo skeptics alike cannot refute is the tremendous amount independent and unbiased film and video footage analysis that's been done to date with respect to UFOs and the evidence that supports them. Just like the considerable body of NASA footage that independent experts with NOTHING to gain have validated as real and untampered with. Some of these UFOs are in excess of 1 mile across. All this footage is readily available via public channels. It's just too close minded for any individual claiming to possess legitimate scientific curiosity to write it off as BS. They are the BS and that's beyond obvious.All the film footage I have seen, and I've seen a lot, has been at best inconclusive while most has been pitiful.

Which film do you think is the most convincing?

[(Q)]

And who exactly profited from these mass sightings? If anything I would say these peoples reputation decreased, not the other way around.

The gullible will rush to their town to see if they might view a UFO themselves, and spend money.

What are the chances the word "merchandising" didn't come up in conversation?

Two known hoaxsters recently perpetrated a bigfoot hoax. These guys were known hoaxters. Hellooooo! Yet, they managed to convince oodles of believers and made a nice wad of cash for their efforts.

Will they do something like that again? Will the gullible rush in with wallets wide open? Will they happily take the money?

Yup.

[EndLightEnd]

All the film footage I have seen, and I've seen a lot, has been at best inconclusive while most has been pitiful.

Which film do you think is the most convincing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0Xn...eature=related

This is only one part of a much longer film....

This is an original NASA STS tape, before they realized what the tapes contained...

[EndLightEnd]

With one one breath you say the government is not giving it the attention it needs, and with the next you say you wouldn't trust them anyway.

I was making two different points in two different posts, but whatever these still are not mutually exclusive. Despite the fact I wouldnt trust their findings does not mean I still would not like to see some action taken, or admittal of it at least.

[Reiku]

Weigh the evidence?
There is NO evidence.
I've had forty plus years looking at this stuff.
Refute insidiously people in respectable positions?
Oh wow, we's got a "more important job" than me, he must be right?
Holding that position makes him automatically infallible and immune to questioning?


I don't normally ask if people are stupid, but are you?

No evidence?

Are you even following UFO's correctly?

Are you saying i am a liar, against also the several people who witnessed what i saw?

Is that not an evidence of sorts, not to mention the countless observations made?

Get a grip.

[EndLightEnd]

Oh wow, we's got a "more important job" than me, he must be right?
Holding that position makes him automatically infallible and immune to questioning?

Inconsequential. People from all walks of life have observed this phenomena. From Presidents to Laborers.

[Oli]

Inconsequential. People from all walks of life have observed this phenomena. From Presidents to Laborers.
Just responding to the post from Reiku.
Inconsequential?
Should'a levelled that at him then, rather than me...:rolleyes:
And it's phenomenon!

[(Q)]

Is that not an evidence of sorts, not to mention the countless observations made?

No, and here's why.

An observation of a phenomenon is exactly that, an observation. You are free to make hypotheses and predictions to attempt to explain the phenomenon, but that certainly doesn't constitute the original observation as any kind of evidence. You have absolutely nothing to compare or relate to the observation in order to draw conclusions.

Therefore, the hypotheses and predictions MUST be tested. There is where you will find your evidence, or not.

[Reiku]

If they have, then why deny the evidence? This IS EVIDENCE.

Evidence takes on the form of many aspects, and one of the strongest formsof evidence is observation, and out of the thousands per year (and i actually have records dating back from the 1990's of such observation recorded by the minsistry of defense,) that these things are real.

[Reiku]

Q

I never denied that. Observation begs experiement or investigation. That is why (places like the ministry of defense have these operations in action.)

The main theme of the X-Files was not based upon mere speculation alone.

[Oli]

I don't normally ask if people are stupid, but are you?
Nope, but I'm also not gullible.

No evidence?
Are you even following UFO's correctly?
Well since I'm not as gullible as you then it's hard to tell isn't it?

Are you saying i am a liar, against also the several people who witnessed what i saw?
Here we go again: either/ or?
Liar?
No.
Mistaken?
Yes.
I've already told you I've seen one...:rolleyes:

Is that not an evidence of sorts, not to mention the countless observations made?
Oh for crying out loud.
How many times?
EYEWITNESS evidence is not hard evidence.
People make mistakes.
People fool themselves.
People fool others.

Get a grip.
Grip?
I'm not the one making unwarranted assumptions here.

[Reiku]

And NASA is not alien to, UFO investigations themselves.

[Reiku]

Nope, but I'm also not gullible.


Well since I'm not as gullible as you then it's hard to tell isn't it?


Here we go again: either/ or?
Liar?
No.
Mistaken?
Yes.
I've already told you I've seen one...:rolleyes:


Oh for crying out loud.
How many times?
EYEWITNESS evidence is not hard evidence.
People make mistakes.
People fool themselves.
People fool others.


Grip?
I'm not the one making unwarranted assumptions here.

I know what i saw myself, and do countless thousands, possible over a million people now know what they saw. Time to take a grip of reality, as i said.

[electrafixtion]

All the film footage I have seen, and I've seen a lot, has been at best inconclusive while most has been pitiful.

Which film do you think is the most convincing?


Are you a professional photographic expert? Is it your profession to examine film despite it's entertainment value for validation purposes?

The best film I have personally seen is the governmental stuff. That and the NASA satellite footage from space. It's incredible to say the least.

The most convincing footage however comes from Mexico where there were multiples in excess of 300 shooting footage of the same craft simultaneously.

[Oli]

I know what i saw myself, and do countless thousands, possible over a million people now know what they saw. Time to take a grip of reality, as i said.
No, you know you saw something you can't explain.
Scientific thinking stops there.
Without any more evidence you're speculating.

[Reiku]

I don't even trust most photographs.

[Reiku]

No, you know you saw something you can't explain.
Scientific thinking stops there.
Without any more evidence you're speculating.

What i can explain is limited. But for what i can, it's not explainable next to modern science.

That it where the buck stops. Not where you think.

[Oli]

What i can explain is limited. But for what i can, it's not explainable next to modern science.
You can explain things not explicable to modern science?
Then is it science?

That it where the buck stops. Not where you think.
Buck stops?
Mixed metaphor surely...
You say you don't trust most photographs, but you'll trust (and build upon) a fleeting one-off visual experience?
Way to go.
You're obviously a future giant in the world of science.

[(Q)]

Q

I never denied that. Observation begs experiement or investigation.

Not to the extent of wasting time, energy and resources tracking down every single claim, especially when not a shred of hard evidence has been found.

It's probably about time to put the tinfoil hats away and get on with it, don't ya think?

[Reiku]

Not to the extent of wasting time, energy and resources tracking down every single claim, especially when not a shred of hard evidence has been found.

It's probably about time to put the tinfoil hats away and get on with it, don't ya think?


Some people could say that about String Theory, which has waisted money and time.

[Reiku]

And a shred of evidence has been found.

I am one of them, including several others who witnessed strange objects in the sky.

This is proof, for fu*k sake.

[Reiku]

And because such a culture has arisen, where we have tin-foil over our heads is supposed to be a matter of a joke, is due to television (and pure idiots of the truth), alone. Nothing more and nothing less, for we do not have proof of such conspicuous actions.

[Reiku]

Here is my personal report, all those years ago.

''Gods Great Aquarium*''
* that is spacetime.

''Do you believe in the existence of extraterrestrials?''
Fox Mulder to Dana Scully (Pilot Episode)

Yes. I do. And here are three reasons why:

1. That in the 1990's in Scotland, Dunoon in the Argyle, (my home town), i experienced a most fantastic phenomena. I was a young child at the time; but i remember the experience as though it where yesterday. I remember looking out of my mother and fathers home one dark winter’s night, and i saw something... something that made me screw my face, because, even though i did not know how aerodynamics worked - i did know what types of spacecraft we had at the time, and it did not match up. Three distinct lights (of brilliant vibrance), cascaded high above my house in a beautiful dance - though, a complicated one at that, and i can tell you now today, that no earthly-built aircraft could manoeuvre like what these lights where doing: thus, i called my parents... and we all stood out in the dark open with our eyes fixated to the skies, in incredible awe. Jaw's open - quite literally. They performed a dance that would rotate around each other in almost pure symmetry, then merging together - like a single force - then splitting away from each other, before disappearing into the deep dark of the night skies, as though they speeded away faster than sound itself. If their are doubters of my claims out their, which there inexorably always is, it wasn't just witnessed by my self and my family - but by quite a few people throughout the town. It was noted that week in the 'Local Dunoon Observer;' so, I’m not as eccentric as some might have assumed.

2. Now - the second reason extends from the first. Here, my scientific and mystical mind go hand-in-hand. First of all, if it wasn't a product of an earth air-craft, since i can deduct this from its sophisticated manoeuvres throughout the sky, then one might assume it was some light source, located miles away. However, an investigation occurred and found no results of any light activity from any of the surrounding towns - and since Dunoon is arched in by mountains, the major cities like ''Glasgow'', is simply far too much of a distance. If it was cast from Glasgow, it would have needed to be a very powerful, focused beam... and even beams that are seen from reasonable distances, can still be known to be from some torch light source - but these 'Luminiferous objects', as i said, where extremely vibrant, and did not look as though they where a by-product of some distant source... it might as well have been cast right from our back garden it was that bright.

3. But i hear Occam rolling in grave... What if it was but some kind of electrical phenomena? Well, I’m no expert on natural electrical phenomena, such as lightning, but i believe even lightning itself is not fully known how it operates. I heard a theory earlier this year, that it might be a product of ice frictions... but too long a story... but my point being, that if this is true, then it is quite possible actually that it could have all been a phenomenal electrical event... but when does the buck stop with knowledge, because eventually, logic becomes a lie, and everything falls down a disenchanted path, and lay's in scientific history as nothing but curiosity... In other words, not everything is governed by logic. Even the illogical assumptions bring with it its own type of legacy. So, might we turn to the fantastic, perhaps even the most incredible to discover the correct logical truth - no matter how illogical it may seem to be? Might the fantastic from time-to-time, be the most plausible assumption? Mathematics would state yes. But this is according to our calculations, highly improbable... However, is the improbable the most probable way to discover the truth about the mind-blowing, incomprehensible world we see around us?

I believe what i saw that night was of extraterrestrial origin - even though the scientific child inside of me is telling me 'no - don't be stupid!' - because, how could another race achieve such a task as deep as intergalactic travel without coming to us when we are long gone, due to the relative laws?
Of course - is this not the argument that is self-explanatory? After all, wouldn't aliens be more intelligent than us? Perhaps they discovered the mysterious ''Tachyonic Matter,'' and achieved great spacetime distances, without really taking any time at all? What if they have mastered the unified theory long before us, and came to our planet, 100,000 years ago - and they, as some conspiracists state, 'created us,' and, 'monitors us'... even though i don't believe in this theory, i can imagine some strange interpretations; one being that if they did genetically construct humans, they are then our gods... But - please - don't mistake me here - it is incredibly improbable... but that's the great thing about theories. If at least a statistical value of anything happening, whether that be 1 in 10^100, it is still possible.

Of course - other, more rational ''things'' can be brought into play here. First of all, aliens must exist, due to the high probability factor of infinite spacetimematter - thus out in that wide cosmos, we cannot be, according to these statistics, be the only ''life'' out there... whether that be intelligent life or not. There is simply far too much space and matter, and equally proportional to its infinite possibilities, that we cannot be the only life existent within this great expanding vacuum.
And, equally logical, is that if they are alien to us, what are we to them? I'm sure you guessed that we too would be aliens - thus, using this deduction, ask yourself again, 'do aliens exist?'

Yes... they do. I am one sitting here right now, as you are sitting there reading this.

[EndLightEnd]

I am one of them, including several others who witnessed strange objects in the sky.

This is proof, for fu*k sake.

This is not HARD evidence.

My biggest issue is despite all these reports coming in, why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them.

[Oli]

And, equally logical, is that if they are alien to us, what are we to them? I'm sure you guessed that we too would be aliens - thus, using this deduction, ask yourself again, 'do aliens exist?'

Yes... they do. I am one sitting here right now, as you are sitting there reading this.

Again the woo woo's simplified answer.
You are only an alien IF extra-terrestrial aliens exist...

[Oli]

And a shred of evidence has been found.

I am one of them, including several others who witnessed strange objects in the sky.

This is proof, for fu*k sake.

So if someone claims to have seen apple peel and a core reconstitute themselves backwards into a full apple you would accept their testimony as an eye witness as "proof"?
No "could you have been mistaken?"
No "is there another, more likely explanation?"

[Reiku]

So if someone claims to have seen apple peel and a core reconstitute themselves backwards into a full apple you would accept their testimony as an eye witness as "proof"?
No "could you have been mistaken?"
No "is there another, more likely explanation?"


I'm sorry, you are not an idiot.

You are determined one.

[(Q)]

Some people could say that about String Theory, which has waisted money and time.

I would say that about String Theory myself. Unfortunately, unlike you, I wouldn't come out making absolute claims about it, quite simply because I don't know enough about it to make those claims.

But, String Theory is rigor in Mathematics, which isn't anywhere near what you're comparing. And even with that, String Theorists will tell you that the theory is unfalsifiable based on our current technologies and the prohibitive costs of attempting to test the theory. It's not that it can't be done, it's just that the testing would be of massive scale and proportion. So, they will tell you that it "currently" CANNOT be considered a science, yet.

That, my friend, is complete honesty. Care to reciprocate?

[Reiku]

This is not HARD evidence.

My biggest issue is despite all these reports coming in, why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them.

Of course it is a matter of national security if aliens are visiting us.

Why do you think that the Ministry of Defense, includin NASA have departments for these very phenomena's?

And when i said there was a shred of evidence, discludes the idea there is none.

[Oli]

I'm sorry, you are not an idiot.

You are determined one.

So you can't see the difference?
YOUR personal view of something you can't explain is obviously real and sacrosanct but someone claiming to see an apple reconstitute....
You're beyond stupidity.

[Reiku]

I would say that about String Theory myself. Unfortunately, unlike you, I wouldn't come out making absolute claims about it, quite simply because I don't know enough about it to make those claims.

But, String Theory is rigor in Mathematics, which isn't anywhere near what you're comparing. And even with that, String Theorists will tell you that the theory is unfalsifiable based on our current technologies and the prohibitive costs of attempting to test the theory. It's not that it can't be done, it's just that the testing would be of massive scale and proportion. So, they will tell you that it "currently" CANNOT be considered a science, yet.

That, my friend, is complete honesty. Care to reciprocate?

String theory is only a rigor of math. There is nothing to substantiate it otherwise.

[(Q)]

And a shred of evidence has been found.

I am one of them, including several others who witnessed strange objects in the sky.

This is proof, for fu*k sake.

YOU or YOUR observations are not evidence. You have nothing to compare. It's really quite simple, Reiku.

[Reiku]

I'm sorry, you are not an idiot.

You are determined one.

So you can't see the difference?
YOUR personal view of something you can't explain is obviously real and sacrosanct but someone claiming to see an apple reconstitute....
You're beyond stupidity.

Not at all. I'm not under the dillusion that possibly a million people haven't now seen these strange aircraft hovering over our atmosphere.

What they are, may beg a number of questions.

[(Q)]

String theory is only a rigor of math. There is nothing to substantiate it otherwise.

I am of the suspect that you aren't reading my posts. I'm done.

[Reiku]

YOU or YOUR observations are not evidence. You have nothing to compare. It's really quite simple, Reiku.

So what did i see? What did over ten people see simultaneously?

[Reiku]

I am of the suspect that you aren't reading my posts. I'm done.

I am reading your posts.

[Oli]

By saying "aircraft" or indeed "craft" you're pre-judging.
I don't deny they've (or at least some of them) "seen" something.

[Reiku]

No i should be the one saying i have had enough. Obviously the observation of such crafts are not considered ''a shred of evidence,'' as you put it Q.

That is purely illogical at best.

[Reiku]

By saying "aircraft" or indeed "craft" you're pre-judging.
I don't deny they've (or at least some of them) "seen" something.

Craft it must be. If it wasn't, then science has just today become a great deal more complicated.

[Oli]

Craft it must be. If it wasn't, then science has just today become a great deal more complicated.

Assumption.
Have you eliminated ALL other possibilities?

[Reiku]

Assumption.
Have you eliminated ALL other possibilities?

I have eliminated a conspiracy, unlike you.

I have also eliminated man as being the cause.

[Reiku]

Enough for the now. See you later.

[Oli]

I have eliminated a conspiracy, unlike you.
Conspiracy?
I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.
You're getting confused.

I have also eliminated man as being the cause.
And have you eliminated all possible natural phenomena?
I doubt it.
And how, please please tell me, how have you eliminated man as the cause?

[EndLightEnd]

Your not making these easy Reiku.

Again my biggest issue is despite all these reports coming in, why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them?

How do you explain the lack of action by our government? This could very well be anothers nations secret technology inside our airspace...

[Carcano]

why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them?

The former governor of Arizona explains:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zotvpZLnY&feature=related

[electrafixtion]

The former governor of Arizona explains:


Outstanding! Thanks for sharing that. I am certain there will be those however claiming this is a promotion for new book he's got coming out.:rolleyes:

[electrafixtion]

Your not making these easy Reiku.

Again my biggest issue is despite all these reports coming in, why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them?

How do you explain the lack of action by our government? This could very well be anothers nations secret technology inside our airspace...

ELE
Don't you "see", you have answered your own question. It's because they CAN'T do anything. The technology to maneuver and and propel these objects is so far beyond anything that modern publicly acknowledged science can put up, they know that all they can do is SHUT UP. get it?

[Cazzo]

Ok if you have any common sense then you realize that UFOs are real and are everywhere. Thousands of sightings every year now from the common laymen to highly experienced pilots to astronauts.


How many reputable scientific journals verify UFO's as "fact" ? none
How many junk papers like The Enquirer describe UFO's as fact ? too many

I trust science more than trash news. And real scientists, probably more than anyone else, would love to get their hands on some real verifiable UFOs.
Since there's no real evidence that they exist, there's nothing for real scientists to work with.

[electrafixtion]

How many reputable scientific journals verify UFO's as "fact" ? none
How many junk papers like The Enquirer describe UFO's as fact ? too many

I trust science more than trash news. And real scientists, probably more than anyone else, would love to get their hands on some real verifiable UFOs.
Since there's no real evidence that they exist, there's nothing for real scientists to work with.


Forgive me please, but I find this view extremely odd. We have EXCELLENT quality video and film footage of UFOs that most certainly has been scrutinized by some of the best analysis experts out there. Are they not scientists with respect to their field of expertise?

How is it that science can contend that evolution is factual with ZERO current hard evidence to go on? Old bones and skulls are weaker evidence than clear film footage any day of the week. Yet we find entire bodies of science devoted (almost religiously at that) to the concept of evolution.

Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

[synthesizer-patel]

Along the same lines, they never attack anything. They just seem to buzz around for little while and leave. In fact, they never (contrary to the claims of so-called abductees) seem to do anything at all. Just toying with us? That seems an unlikely use of resources and time.


and furthermore why are they so preoccupied with the contents of our arseholes?

[Cazzo]

Forgive me please, but I find this view extremely odd. We have EXCELLENT quality video and film footage of UFOs that most certainly has been scrutinized by some of the best analysis experts out there. Are they not scientists with respect to their field of expertise?

How is it that science can contend that evolution is factual with ZERO current hard evidence to go on? Old bones and skulls are weaker evidence than clear film footage any day of the week. Yet we find entire bodies of science devoted (almost religiously at that) to the concept of evolution.

Isn't this a bit of a double standard?

Evolution's based on emperical verifiable evidence that can has been measured, stored, and verified by other scientists.
Yea, UFO "analysis experts" that like to get their faces in the gullable news, where they and the news profit off gullable people..........
Sorry, but I'm a skeptic until I see real evidence in a real reputable scientific journal.

[Reiku]

Your not making these easy Reiku.

Again my biggest issue is despite all these reports coming in, why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them?

How do you explain the lack of action by our government? This could very well be anothers nations secret technology inside our airspace...

Wait a wee minute, (after reading what you said), i am not making this easy???


Ok, please come back to me, when you are talking sense.

[Mr.Spock]

do you think politicians can be identified as UFOs?

[EndLightEnd]

...my biggest issue is despite all these reports coming in, why does our nation not consider this a matter of national security? Especially in this day of age, unless they had prior knowledge OR are operating them?

How do you explain the lack of action by our government? This could very well be anothers nations secret technology inside our airspace...

Any skeptics want to tackle this one?

[Oli]

Assuming the politicians actually do believe in UFOs then one reason for not "considering" (or treating) it as a matter of national security would be because there's sod all they can do about it.
Just close their eyes and hope the problem will go away.

[EndLightEnd]

Assuming the politicians actually do believe in UFOs then one reason for not "considering" (or treating) it as a matter of national security would be because there's sod all they can do about it.
Just close their eyes and hope the problem will go away.

If theres a will theres a way.

If politicians came out and said "hey we need help with this UFO problem, they are real, everyone grab your cameras and get as many on film as possible" then I guarantee an influx of evidence. Right now the whole UFO issue sits on the outskirts of science and no one wants to touch it, out of fear...

They just appear to be turning a blind eye...Why? What are the motives?
I have my suspicions but I want to hear your answer.

[Oli]

If theres a will theres a way.
Not always true.

If politicians came out and said "hey we need help with this UFO problem, they are real, everyone grab your cameras and get as many on film as possible" then I guarantee an influx of evidence. Right now the whole UFO issue sits on the outskirts of science and no one wants to touch it, out of fear...
Um, I was assuming that the government (in this scenario) knew they were real.
How are photos going to help if the aliens have proven they're so far in advance we can't touch them?

They just appear to be turning a blind eye...Why? What are the motives?
I have my suspicions but I want to hear your answer.
As stated above and in my previous post: maybe because they know there's nothing we can do about it.

[DwayneD.L.Rabon]

Well one reason that people have a difficulty with comming to realization of UFOs is simply because most of the people on earth have no idea of how to physically make such a device.
For instance most of the people on this web site at sciforums have no idea of how to even go about making such a device, because of that lack of knowledge it is easier to denie any existance of a UFO. This is the real reason that people who talk about UFOs have such a difficult time relating to people who have no conception of a ufo, they are people who in thier life have never even seen a ufo.(except maybe a picture)

In the city where I live Seattle WA. USA, we have a observation tower called the space needle and it was designed to be a UFO, made in the shape of a flying saucer, the tower it self stands 550 ft. tall, and the ufo ontop of it can be seen for many miles around the city.
Seattle is also the headquaters of Boeing, which is the birth place of the Airplane and its manufacture. Boeing is the largest airplane manufacture in the world.
So why do we have a city tower with a UFO as are sky mark, the space needle was built in the early 1960s, todays date is 2008, so then for some reason 48 years ago we put a huge effort into building a UFO that everybody can see over are city. (why?)

Well lets ask a few questions, if you can see UFOs in the sky and their are thousands of reprots of them, why can not you build your own.


DwayneD.L.Rabon

[Oli]

Well lets ask a few questions, if you can see UFOs in the sky and their are thousands of reprots of them, why can not you build your own.
I do hope that wasn't meant as a serious question.

[DwayneD.L.Rabon]

Well of course Oli,
it is a serious question, why can you not build your own, seeing how they exist.

DwayneD.L.Rabon

[Read-Only]

Well one reason that people have a difficulty with comming to realization of UFOs is simply because most of the people on earth have no idea of how to physically make such a device.
For instance most of the people on this web site at sciforums have no idea of how to even go about making such a device, because of that lack of knowledge it is easier to denie any existance of a UFO. This is the real reason that people who talk about UFOs have such a difficult time relating to people who have no conception of a ufo, they are people who in thier life have never even seen a ufo.(except maybe a picture)

In the city where I live Seattle WA. USA, we have a observation tower called the space needle and it was designed to be a UFO, made in the shape of a flying saucer, the tower it self stands 550 ft. tall, and the ufo ontop of it can be seen for many miles around the city.
Seattle is also the headquaters of Boeing, which is the birth place of the Airplane and its manufacture. Boeing is the largest airplane manufacture in the world.
So why do we have a city tower with a UFO as are sky mark, the space needle was built in the early 1960s, todays date is 2008, so then for some reason 48 years ago we put a huge effort into building a UFO that everybody can see over are city. (why?)

Well lets ask a few questions, if you can see UFOs in the sky and their are thousands of reprots of them, why can not you build your own.


DwayneD.L.Rabon

More silly, irrational junk from the resident peanut gallery. (Wow - will he EVER grow up??):shrug:

[Read-Only]

Well of course Oli,
it is a serious question, why can you not build your own, seeing how they exist.

DwayneD.L.Rabon

By the way, Rabon, where's the proof of your silly statements you made over on the Tesla Earthquake Machine thread, eh? You just tucked your tail and ran away...

[moementum7]

I've seen them guys.
Mettalic saucer shaped crafts...about 25-30 of them with a friend over Kelowna B.C. Canada.
I'm not saying this for profit, fame or to win a popularity contest.
I know how many people percieve those who even remotely believe in the possibility of the subject.
It is kind of strange to have seen them personally and then to watch others make aggresive derogatory remarks to others who believe in the probability (or fact in my case) that there are these crafts flying around.
I can't even get upset at those who are aggresive...they just don't know.
Even those who may feel it neccessary to slander me in someway with this post...I can't get any more upset with them than for people who attempt to say that I'm not typing these very words.
I would have to be crazy to argue with that.

I wish I could prove to all of you that doubt only because there is power in numbers.
Whatever is going on, E.T. or government black ops I think we all need to know for our own good.
However I know that there is no way I can prove it to you, maybe just maybe you can pick up on the integrity of my post...yeah that's stretching it, lol.

I really wish I knew what was going on...for those of you who still doubt and have not yet experienced any evidence to open up...just stay open.
Actually, there's not any advice I can give...I have seen them and I don't even know what to make of it...I'm not really any more prepared than you are for what this could mean to us as the general populace.

Maybe I'm scared, but I know that the more of us that know something is going on the safer/better I feel...sort of:)

Crazy stuff.

[Read-Only]

I've seen them guys.
Mettalic saucer shaped crafts...about 25-30 of them with a friend over Kelowna B.C. Canada.
I'm not saying this for profit, fame or to win a popularity contest.
I know how many people percieve those who even remotely believe in the possibility of the subject.
It is kind of strange to have seen them personally and then to watch others make aggresive derogatory remarks to others who believe in the probability (or fact in my case) that there are these crafts flying around.
I can't even get upset at those who are aggresive...they just don't know.
Even those who may feel it neccessary to slander me in someway with this post...I can't get any more upset with them than for people who attempt to say that I'm not typing these very words.
I would have to be crazy to argue with that.

I wish I could prove to all of you that doubt only because there is power in numbers.
Whatever is going on, E.T. or government black ops I think we all need to know for our own good.
However I know that there is no way I can prove it to you, maybe just maybe you can pick up on the integrity of my post...yeah that's stretching it, lol.

I really wish I knew what was going on...for those of you who still doubt and have not yet experienced any evidence to open up...just stay open.
Actually, there's not any advice I can give...I have seen them and I don't even know what to make of it...I'm not really any more prepared than you are for what this could mean to us as the general populace.

Maybe I'm scared, but I know that the more of us that know something is going on the safer/better I feel...sort of:)

Crazy stuff.

No worries. :)

Let me see if I can make myself as clear as possible: I've never once said or doubted that people have seen very strange things in the sky. In fact, I've seen two things myself that were unexplainable and very similar to each other - about 600 miles and ten years apart.

But what I do keep coming back to is that to attribute them to ETs is one big strech of the imagination. And the fact that over all these decades of sightings, no one has ever produced even one single bit of solid, physical evidence.

That's where I stand on the issue.

[nietzschefan]

No worries. :)

Let me see if I can make myself as clear as possible: I've never once said or doubted that people have seen very strange things in the sky. In fact, I've seen two things myself that were unexplainable and very similar to each other - about 600 miles and ten years apart.

But what I do keep coming back to is that to attribute them to ETs is one big strech of the imagination. And the fact that over all these decades of sightings, no one has ever produced even one single bit of solid, physical evidence.

That's where I stand on the issue.

When was the last time someone managed to get a piece of a downed F117? Kosovo. Once in the entire existence of F117s, has someone not U.S Military been able to get some F117 wreckage. It was also nearly totally destroyed. If the U.S government did not show them off at airshows, sceptics would consider reporters of them and B2s to be nutjobs. In fact B2s were UFOs or whatever the correct term is nowadays, for quite a while.

So it is actually quite reasonable to assume very very few, even more advanced craft, have ever crashed. We have the Roswell story and the U.S government recovered whatever crashed there(weather balloon or otherwise). So the theory, and it is just a theory, that they are keeping it secret is viable. Other reports of crashes are not as well documented, however in the two others I know of, the craft was recovered by military.

[NumLk]

The thing is there is no evidence.
If there were, there would be no debate.
And it would be earth shaking news.

I think most people of earth would be very enthusiastic would it become a proven fact.
Nothing would be more exciting to me anyway :-).
But so far there is no evidence.

I´m very interested in this stuff, but to me it seems all people involved in the UFO-field are doing it for the money and attention. I haven´t seen anything yet to convince me otherwise
(and I´m one of those who want this to be true.)

[Reiku]

There is evidence. The fact there are sightings across the world everyday, is evidence alone.

But, there is no proof it is of aliens. I think that's what you mean.

[Oli]

Well of course Oli,
it is a serious question, why can you not build your own, seeing how they exist.

DwayneD.L.Rabon

Seeing something tells you its shape.
Not what it's made of, how it's powered or the principles behind it.
Reverse-engineering isn't that easy.

[Reiku]

''It's Life Jim, But Not As We Know It.''

[moementum7]

No worries. :)

Let me see if I can make myself as clear as possible: I've never once said or doubted that people have seen very strange things in the sky. In fact, I've seen two things myself that were unexplainable and very similar to each other - about 600 miles and ten years apart.

But what I do keep coming back to is that to attribute them to ETs is one big strech of the imagination. And the fact that over all these decades of sightings, no one has ever produced even one single bit of solid, physical evidence.

That's where I stand on the issue.

Completely rational and I understand your position.

[electrafixtion]

Evolution's based on emperical verifiable evidence that can has been measured, stored, and verified by other scientists.
Yea, UFO "analysis experts" that like to get their faces in the gullable news, where they and the news profit off gullable people..........
Sorry, but I'm a skeptic until I see real evidence in a real reputable scientific journal.

In other words, common scientific consensus. That's what scientists call speculative "empirical evidence". Information that can be readily agreed upon among themselves as having been "verified".

Can you duplicate it? Can you test it in a controlled situation? NO? Then it's merely scientific speculation until you can. That's my perspective.

As to the "experts" that like to get their faces on cereal boxes or whatever. That's just pointless and nonfactual sarcasm that bares out little substance but rather reflects on the typically dismal status of supposed real scientific skepticism.

The truth is: This is more (as in MUCH more) evidence that UFOs are a real mechanical (or some form of physical movement) phenomenon than there is hard evidence to support the theory of evolution. That taking into account that men within the scientific community as a collective majority can hypothetically explain what they cannot duplicate or replicate.

Go get me CURRENT film footage that has been scrutinizingly analyzed by UNBIASED independent testing agencies of evolution in progress. No empirical cartoons of just how things "were" please.

[clusteringflux]

Completely rational and I understand your position.

Having spoken to a few other people who have allegedly seen UFOs (and are otherwise quite normal), I could add to Read's statements, that there Should be more to fear from the military than ETs, given the known track record of each party.;)
Chances are that if it is ETs, they've been here as long (and likely longer) as we have with no documented violent actions (obviously).

[Oli]

Go get me CURRENT film footage that has been scrutinizingly analyzed by UNBIASED independent testing agencies of evolution in progress. No empirical cartoons of just how things "were" please.

:crazy:
:runaway:

[electrafixtion]

:crazy:
:runaway:


ROTFLMAO!

The point is perspective or the notion of what is "acceptable" evidence. In one case we have an accepted explanation accompanied by what is perceived as credible proof. We can't duplicate that explanation. We have as many questions to this very day concerning the reality of the proposed explanation's process as we do hard facts to support it's premise. But because it's considered an empirical "scientific explanation" we disregard the missing bits that we don't understand and tie it all together with something I have always contended was a parallel to religious faith.

The thing with UFOs is that in all our commonly understood and accepted scientific knowledge of space and dimensional reality, we don't have a clue how they "work". All we can do is observe them ignorantly, and yet undeniably. Then in some vainly proud & embittered furry demand "hard evidence" or we won't be swayed by any such nonsense.

It all boils down to our scientific habits and our ever present human ego. If we can't attach a logical explanation to the irrefutable film and video based evidence, one that juxtaposes itself against our undeniable superiority in the vast scheme of things, we'll just chalk it all up to wackos and attention grabbers. Right?

I for one of many do not buy it for a second. The truth is that there has been a great deal of credible research done on the history of the social impact of UFOs. That impact is readily visible throughout the last several thousand years of recorded history and no I am not talking Chariots of The Gods BS here.

I just find the whole perspective of science concerning UFOs extremely hypocritical. The standoffish nature of the scientific communities rebuttal reeks of egotism via a distinct possibility that man can simply not come to terms with the fact that he is truly not the superior intelligence involved in the big picture. "Oh yes, there is no question that the possibility of other life in the universe is very real. Quit probable actually. I sincerely doubt however that such life has evolved to a stance superior to our own"

What kind of a narrow minded, inferiority complexes poster child of a perspective is that?

It's just more ego driven scientific faith based bullshit.

It's time we quit getting back to the proverbial logic based drawing board and start admitting that we require a different route if we are ever going to TRULY evolve to a potential level of understanding concerning these "silly" matters.

I am sure that this will be greeted with the usual "warm and fuzzy" anecdotal scientific communities satire. Thing is, it's the very nature of this type of impulsive dismissal that has kept mankind locked in it's comfortable ego subservient "silly" stone age closet for so long. :rolleyes:

[Oli]

The point is perspective or the notion of what is "acceptable" evidence.
The point being that film recordings aren't accepted as scientific evidence...

"Oh yes, there is no question that the possibility of other life in the universe is very real. Quit probable actually. I sincerely doubt however that such life has evolved to a stance superior to our own"
Um, if you talk to any scientist who admits the possibility of extra-terrestrial life then the majority will actually argue the opposite:
that there MUST be civilisations far in advance of ours.
Hard luck.

What kind of a narrow minded, inferiority complexes poster child of a perspective is that?
Yours, apparently.

[electrafixtion]

The point being that film recordings aren't accepted as scientific evidence...


Um, if you talk to any scientist who admits the possibility of extra-terrestrial life then the majority will actually argue the opposite:
that there MUST be civilisations far in advance of ours.
Hard luck.


Yours, apparently.

Still no better than an average troll eh? Keep trying my man. Maybe someday you'll succeed.

BTW, glad you think you're able to answer for "any scientist" which proves beyond the shadow of doubt that your input is jaded & worthless.

[Oli]

Tut you can't read can you?
...talk to any... the majority...
How do you manage to read that as me imagining I can answer for any scientist?

Try looking up "Drake Equation".

BTW, glad you think you're able to answer for "any scientist" which proves beyond the shadow of doubt that your input is jaded & worthless.
As opposed to, say, making false statements with effectively the same claim:
The standoffish nature of the scientific communities (sic) rebuttal... I sincerely doubt however that such life has evolved to a stance superior to our own
Any evidence of that?
Or did you just make it up?
Now tell me about "worthless".

[EndLightEnd]

The Drake Equation is nothing more than speculation. Its based on variables we have know way of knowing to be true or not.

Um, if you talk to any scientist who admits the possibility of extra-terrestrial life then the majority will actually argue the opposite:
that there MUST be civilisations far in advance of ours.
Hard luck.

Ok so why is it so hard to imagine that they are already here?:shrug:

[Read-Only]

Ok so why is it so hard to imagine that they are already here?:shrug:

Precisely the point, thank you. It certainly isn't hard for gullible minds to imagine it - or anything else they wish to belive.;)

(I hope this thread never dies, I always get a good laugh watching foolish people dance around who will accept almost anything as evidence.):D

[Oli]

The Drake Equation is nothing more than speculation. Its based on variables we have know way of knowing to be true or not.
Yup. Speculation by scientists: which invalidates the comment about scientists en masse declaring any other civilisation must be inferior to ours...

[Reiku]

But the equation doesn't take into account the infinity of possibilities, in equally an infinity of spacetime for them to arise in.

[Oli]

But the equation doesn't take into account the infinity of possibilities, in equally an infinity of spacetime for them to arise in.

I wonder if that's because there isn't an infinty...:rolleyes:

[Reiku]

What, not an infinity of possibilities that can arise in an infinitely large vacuum of spacetime?

Are you being serious?

[Oli]

Yup.
You're claiming that the universe has expanded to infinity since the big bang?

Certainly given an infinitely large space time then there would be infinite possibilities, but we aren't at infinity yet are we?

[Reiku]

The universe is infinitely expanding. That is what i claim, and that spacetime is therefore infinite according to all models of astrophysics. There may be no limit to expansion. You do understand this?

And it is considered, since there is presently no stop to expansion, that spacetime is an ifninite void. Why do you think people say, often, ''spacetime is infinite in volume.''?

What is infinity?

The best way to describe infinity, is that it is always one more than any absolute count.

[Oli]

The universe is infinitely expanding. That is what i claim, and that spacetime is therefore infinite according to all models of astrophysics. There may be no limit to expansion. You do understand this?
I understand that there may be no limit, but currently we're at about 156 Bn lY I think...

And it is considered, since there is presently no stop to expansion, that spacetime is an ifninite void. Why do you think people say, often, ''spacetime is infinite in volume.''?
Why do people say "I was dead on my feet today"? Are they really dead?
Even if there is no stop to the expansion we haven't expanded that far yet.

What is infinity?
Specious question.

The best way to describe infinity, is that it is always one more than any absolute count.
So what: we are not at infinity yet and may never get there.

[Reiku]

''I understand that there may be no limit, but currently we're at about 156 Bn lY I think...''

And still infinitely growing. Speeding up as well.

''Why do people say "I was dead on my feet today"? Are they really dead?
Even if there is no stop to the expansion we haven't expanded that far yet.''

This is what you aren't getting. There is no limit to infinity.

''So what: we are not at infinity yet and may never get there.''

But we are living infinity Oli.

You can check any source on the web to confirm what i say. This universe has an infinite space, because there is no limit to the expansion. And with all evidence pointing to what is called ''an Open Universe,'' the universe probably will not have an Omega Point, where the gravitation pulls back on itself.

If you don't believe me, maybe you should ask anyone else around here who knows these facts. Or even better, check the web.

[Oli]

'And still infinitely growing. Speeding up as well.
Yup.
Still growing.

This is what you aren't getting. There is no limit to infinity.
Correct, but starting at 0 you have to pass through 1, 2, 3 etc before you reach infinity and currently we're at 156 bn LY.

But we are living infinity Oli.
Not according to what I googled fifteen minutes ago.

You can check any source on the web to confirm what i say. This universe has an infinite space, because there is no limit to the expansion. And with all evidence pointing to what is called ''an Open Universe,'' the universe probably will not have an Omega Point, where the gravitation pulls back on itself.
No limit to the expansion correct (probably) but we have not yet expanded to infinty.
I did google, that's where I got 156 figure from.
Dispute it by finding a contary source.

If you don't believe me, maybe you should ask anyone else around here who knows these facts. Or even better, check the web.
I did check the web, to confirm what I'd been taught: we are not AT infinity but may get there.

[Reiku]

You're a bit of a troll aren't you Oli.

Read these links, then come back to me, and say what you've said. If you do, you are admitting to me you are simply trolling around.

Curious About Astronomy: What is the universe expanding into?29 Sep 2002 ... If the universe is indeed infinite, then the simple answer to the original question is that the universe doesn't have anything to expand ...
curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274 - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

WikiAnswers - If the universe is infinitely expanding wouldn't it ...Physics question: If the universe is infinitely expanding wouldn't it have edges and what would be on the other side of the edges? Expanding universe There ...
wiki.answers.com/Q/If_the_universe_is_infinitely_expanding_wouldn't_i t_have_edges_and_what_would_be_o... - 47k - Cached - Similar pages

[Reiku]

Wiki says:

''In cosmological terms, the Universe is thought to be a finite or infinite space-time continuum in which all matter and energy exist.''

Universe: Encyclopedia - UniverseIn cosmological terms, the Universe is thought to be a finite or infinite space-time continuum in which all matter and energy exist. (It has been ...
www.experiencefestival.com/a/Universe/id/1897981 - 83k - Cached - Similar pages

And as i noted, all evidence points to the conclusion the universe is Open, and therefore infinite. Now, just listen to what i say.

[Read-Only]

Wiki says:

''In cosmological terms, the Universe is thought to be a finite or infinite space-time continuum in which all matter and energy exist.''

Universe: Encyclopedia - UniverseIn cosmological terms, the Universe is thought to be a finite or infinite space-time continuum in which all matter and energy exist. (It has been ...
www.experiencefestival.com/a/Universe/id/1897981 - 83k - Cached - Similar pages

And as i noted, all evidence points to the conclusion the universe is Open, and therefore infinite. Now, just listen to what i say.

Nope, that's a gross misinterpretation of the facts. The best facts that we have from observation are that it's expanding toward infinity .

[EndLightEnd]

Precisely the point, thank you. It certainly isn't hard for gullible minds to imagine it - or anything else they wish to belive.;)

Well damn those gullible fools then for believing the Earth was round before we could prove it! Damn you imagination!

Seriously though, Read-Only, dont have any kids.

[Read-Only]

Well damn those gullible fools then for believing the Earth was round before we could prove it! Damn you imagination!

Nope, not talking about that kind of thing. Talking about gullible people who so easily believe in almost anything. It puts you in the same group as the ones who believe in Bigfoot (the beast, not the exhibition truck).

Here's one thing I've found that many of you "true believers" share. Their lives are do ordinary and plain that they take up these stupid beliefs as a way of providing a little excitement in their otherwise boring existence.

Seriously though, Read-Only, dont have any kids.

You're MUCH too late - my kids already have kids. And all three of mine are reasonable, logical adults in good professions and they don't believe in your garbage either.

[Reiku]

Nope, that's a gross misinterpretation of the facts. The best facts that we have from observation are that it's expanding toward infinity .
That's wrong. Totally wrong. Expansion is an infinity, if there is no end. I will take this up in the physics forum.

[electrafixtion]

Exactly! It's just beyond basic ignorance to contend that because we currently don't have a logical explanation for the notion of something fantastic, whatever you are considering must be a product of gullibility. If anything, that stance would seem to define gullibility.

Since when were carefully scrutinized photographs or films not considered admissible evidence? That must be a new rule of applied reason. I guess we built the Hubble for not.

The whole business of those that express a basic or advanced sincere interest in "science", that just blatantly contend that the justification of serious UFO research
lie in the midst of that which can only be attributed to an over active imagination, are themselves idiots. That or they themselves are disproportionately developed with respect to the right half of their own brains. Wake up as the rest of us would like to have you aboard the good ship reality.

[EndLightEnd]

Nope, not talking about that kind of thing. Talking about gullible people who so easily believe in almost anything. It puts you in the same group as the ones who believe in Bigfoot (the beast, not the exhibition truck).

Right because weve discovered every single species on Earth... Good logical thinking there. You obviously know EVERYTHING, why should I even bother arguing with you, right? You need a better understanding on the limits of our knowledge.


Here's one thing I've found that many of you "true believers" share. Their lives are do ordinary and plain that they take up these stupid beliefs as a way of providing a little excitement in their otherwise boring existence.

Another assumption which reveals the way your mind works. You obviously are full of bias and predjudice, two things NOT associated with logic.


You're MUCH too late - my kids already have kids. And all three of mine are reasonable, logical adults in good professions and they don't believe in your garbage either.

Right so believing in something which has not YET been proven makes me illogical.:shrug: (Lets just keep testing all the stuff we already know! Thats a good way to advance knowledge right?:bugeye:) Good thing scientists dont think like you, otherwise we would be stuck in the dark ages.

And youve already admitted that UFOs are a real phenomena; your stipulation is on what they are. So again I ask you Read-Only since you seem to be avoiding the question...

Why does our nation not consider this phenomena to be a national security threat? This could be an enemies secret technology in our Airspace, something the USA should not take lightly dont you think?

[EndLightEnd]

It's just beyond basic ignorance to contend that because we currently don't have a logical explanation for the notion of something fantastic, whatever you are considering must be a product of gullibility. If anything, that stance would seem to define gullibility.


Agreed. Read-Only has the blinders on though. He cannot see this.

Hes old though, cant blame him. Its how he was raised. I didnt realize how old he was until he said he has kids who have kids.

[Reiku]

Exactly! It's just beyond basic ignorance to contend that because we currently don't have a logical explanation for the notion of something fantastic, whatever you are considering must be a product of gullibility. If anything, that stance would seem to define gullibility.

Since when were carefully scrutinized photographs or films not considered admissible evidence? That must be a new rule of applied reason. I guess we built the Hubble for not.

The whole business of those that express a basic or advanced sincere interest in "science", that just blatantly contend that the justification of serious UFO research
lie in the midst of that which can only be attributed to an over active imagination, are themselves idiots. That or they themselves are disproportionately developed with respect to the right half of their own brains. Wake up as the rest of us would like to have you aboard the good ship reality.


I like you a lot :D

[Read-Only]

Right because weve discovered every single species on Earth... Good logical thinking there. You obviously know EVERYTHING, why should I even bother arguing with you, right? You need a better understanding on the limits of our knowledge.



Another assumption which reveals the way your mind works. You obviously are full of bias and predjudice, two things NOT associated with logic.

No, quite the contrary. I've never even HINTED that we know all of everthing - in fact, I adamadly state many times in this place that we've only begun to scratch the surface of knowledge. And I'm neither biased nor predjudiced, I just don't have the extra holes in my head that you do. What you obviously aren't smart enough to realize is it's YOU that's being illogical by being willing to accept all the junk that you do without any real evidence. Now THAT'S the real definition of gullibility!!!!

And youve already admitted that UFOs are a real phenomena; your stipulation is on what they are. So again I ask you Read-Only since you seem to be avoiding the question...

Why does our nation not consider this phenomena to be a national security threat? This could be an enemies secret technology in our Airspace, something the USA should not take lightly dont you think?

I'm not avoiding ANY questions, silly boy. I have no doubt that if they suspect enemy technology they would be/are investigating it. Just what proof do you have, dummy, that they aren't, eh??????????????

[Read-Only]

Agreed. Read-Only has the blinders on though. He cannot see this.

Hes old though, cant blame him. Its how he was raised. I didnt realize how old he was until he said he has kids who have kids.

Nope, no blinders at all.

Yes, older, wiser and far more experienced than YOU are. That's the big edge that I and others have over your childish gullibility and willingness to accept fantastic things! Those in my age group have been watching and pondering all this stuff before you were ever born - and we've seen NOTHING solid come of it in all that time. Sure, there was a time when we were excited about it also. But since it came to nothing, we just shrugged and went on with MUCH more important things and left that stuff to the idiots of the world to worry about.:D

[EndLightEnd]

I used to think you ignorant, but now I just see your "hard-wired"; set in your ways.

Unable, or unwilling to change.

[electrafixtion]

I used to think you ignorant, but now I just see your "hard-wired"; set in your ways.

Unable, or unwilling to change.

Almost sounds like rigor mortis of the brain. ;) I think what he really said is that he gave up. After he and his friends spent a good deal of time on the matter and couldn't make a flying saucer, he thought he should throw in the towel. That's wisdom for you.:D

[Read-Only]

I used to think you ignorant, but now I just see your "hard-wired"; set in your ways.

Unable, or unwilling to change.

That's not true at all. I'm constantly reading and studying and learning new things. You simply haven't lived long enough yet to realize how little you - personally - know which actually limits the speed at which you can learn.

As far as "set in my ways" goes, it really means that I've learned enough to know how to spot scams and nonsense quicker (and avoid them) than you less-educated people.

[Read-Only]

Almost sounds like rigor mortis of the brain. I think what he really said is that he gave up. After he and his friends spent a good deal of time on the matter and couldn't make a flying saucer, he thought he should throw in the towel. That's wisdom for you.:D

Oh, you're really the brilliant one, aren't you?:rolleyes: Not!

What we learned - and that you have yet to find out - is that after all these hundreds, maybe thousands, of sightings - nothing ever came of it. All we ever saw, in the final anlysis, was people like you going around crying wolf and shouting that the sky is falling. Nothing more than that.

So just keep on deluding yourselves - we're enjoying the free entertainment at your expense. :D

ET's in spacecraft, Bigfoot, ghost hunters. Just cheap entertainment.

[EndLightEnd]

You cant make a post without adding a personal insult can you Read-Only?

[Read-Only]

You cant make a post without adding a personal insult can you Read-Only?

Not when it's so well deserved. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I will usually call it a duck.

[EndLightEnd]

Please explain how its well deserved? I dont think I deserve this childish behavior.

Since when do intelligent men (such as yourself;)) resort to such childish behavior? Isnt that a bit contradictory? Are you incapable of seeing this in yourself?

[Read-Only]

Please explain how its well deserved? I dont think I deserve this childish behavior.

Since when do intelligent men (such as yourself;)) resort to such childish behavior? Isnt that a bit contradictory? Are you incapable of seeing this in yourself?

Of course you don't think you do. Did you not understand my duck analogy?

[Reiku]

Not when it's so well deserved. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, I will usually call it a duck.

If it walks like a prick, talks like a prick, usually is, eh Read?

[Read-Only]

If it walks like a prick, talks like a prick, usually is, eh Read?

I could easily use some vulgar terms about you, Reiku, but I rarely use such language. I'll just stick with the ducks, thank you very little.

[Reiku]

Oh, you could, could you? Fantabulous. Now, i'll stick with the prick analogy, because it's very useful in walks of life. Especially when you come to identify certain individuals as pricks. You know?

[phlogistician]

Oh, you could, could you? Fantabulous. Now, i'll stick with the prick analogy, because it's very useful in walks of life. Especially when you come to identify certain individuals as pricks. You know?

Reiku, that just cost you the debate.

[EndLightEnd]

I could easily use some vulgar terms about you, Reiku, but I rarely use such language. I'll just stick with the ducks, thank you very little.

Hah, like thats ever stopped you before.

And before I meant to say NO ONE deserves such childish behavior. So can we stop with the name calling and stay on topic, are you capable of that Read-Only? Surely someone as smart as yourself can accomplish this.

So then, please explain this video. Explain to me which natural phenomena caused this object to intelligently move out of the way of an incoming object.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0XnDJKdWo&feature=related

[Read-Only]

Hah, like thats ever stopped you before.

And before I meant to say NO ONE deserves such childish behavior. So can we stop with the name calling and stay on topic, are you capable of that Read-Only? Surely someone as smart as yourself can accomplish this.

So then, please explain this video. Explain to me which natural phenomena caused this object to intelligently move out of the way of an incoming object.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0XnDJKdWo&feature=related

Your first sentence proves clearly that you haven't been paying attention and probably have never read any of my posts outside of this thread. Why? Because I simply do NOT use such language - just as I didn't in that response which was clearly calling for it.

So before we go any farther - even before I bother with your video - I challenge you to show proof of your claim "like that's ever stopped you before." Search the ENTIRE forum for all of my posts - put a LOT of effort into it! - and then, when you find absolutely nothing (as you will !!) - then come back like a man and make a full apology for your outrageous outburst!!

I'm waiting..............

[electrafixtion]

Read-Only is coming from the stance that scientists with a serious interest in UFOs are alarmists. That's completely delusional guys with respect to our actual interest based stance concerning the phenomenon itself. Please don't waste your precious emotional and mental resources on people like he & ol' Oily that stand within the quagmire of indefinite conclusions. No matter what they contend, they have truly given up. They only feign wisdom and experience because subconsciously it keeps them from feeling as though they themselves are the largest threat to their own scientific curiosity's survival. To make such as self admission would mean their own psychological suicide and as such their ego (the id) will never stand for it. They believe that their magnificent accumulation of life experiences has granted them some sort of irrevocable license of scientific correctness based on a false sense of "justified entitlement". That's their right and we need not dispute such a common personal nostalgia based scientific endearment. This being despite any kickin' n screamin' we might encounter via hurled indignities directed toward them or us. The world will always consist of the many and the few. The many conform and fall away by the wayside while the few press on despite the clique's adversity and ridicule. The "few" are the only members of the scientific community that EVER make a real difference. Just as history continually points to the few, it continually disregards the many. Carry on.

[phlogistician]

So then, please explain this video. Explain to me which natural phenomena caused this object to intelligently move out of the way of an incoming object.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0XnDJKdWo&feature=related

I see space debris, and ballistic motion of objects, not 'intelligent' motion.

It's exactly the same sort of stuff I've seen from an astronauts personal camcorder footage, plus I've seen ejecta from manouvering thrusters that creats and moves such debris.

You got nothing, in other words.

[Read-Only]

Read-Only is coming from the stance that scientists with a serious interest in UFOs are alarmists. That's completely delusional guys with respect to our actual interest based stance concerning the phenomenon itself. Please don't waste your precious emotional and mental resources on people like he & ol' Oily that stand within the quagmire of indefinite conclusions. No matter what they contend, they have truly given up. They only feign wisdom and experience because subconsciously it keeps them from feeling as though they themselves are the largest threat to their own scientific curiosity's survival. To make such as self admission would mean their own psychological suicide and as such their ego (the id) will never stand for it. They believe that their magnificent accumulation of life experiences has granted them some sort of irrevocable license of scientific correctness based on a false sense of "justified entitlement". That's their right and we need not dispute such a common personal nostalgia based scientific endearment. This being despite any kickin' n screamin' we might encounter via hurled indignities directed toward them or us. The world will always consist of the many and the few. The many conform and fall away by the wayside while the few press on despite the clique's adversity and ridicule. The "few" are the only members of the scientific community that EVER make a real difference. Just as history continually points to the few, it continually disregards the many. Carry on.

Actually, that's pretty amusing!:D

Sure - go right ahead chasing your tails around in circles. You'll never get anywhere and we'll be here laughing at you all the way. Like I said, cheap entertainment.;)

And to be completely honest, the main reason I bother with this thread is that I really enjoy watching you "true believers" squirm and try SO hard to justify your fantasies.:D

[electrafixtion]

I see space debris, and ballistic motion of objects, not 'intelligent' motion.

It's exactly the same sort of stuff I've seen from an astronauts personal camcorder footage, plus I've seen ejecta from manouvering thrusters that creats and moves such debris.

You got nothing, in other words.

Yep, that's why several of the most noteworthy & respected astronauts themselves contend that what they have observed via their missions unequivocally are intelligently controlled craft.

If you are referring to the NASA footage taken outside the space shuttle in which UFO activity was in fact documented, the same footage in which the proposed theory of ice particle and debris were carefully analyzed, only a moron would contend that "debris" could accelerate at incalculable speeds away from a 45 degree turn. What's that, applied cue ball english in space? LOL!
Gimme a break.

[electrafixtion]

Actually, that's pretty amusing!:D

Sure - go right ahead chasing your tails around in circles. You'll never get anywhere and we'll be here laughing at you all the way. Like I said, cheap entertainment.;)

And to be completely honest, the main reason I bother with this thread is that I really enjoy watching you "true believers" squirm and try SO hard to justify your fantasies.:D

I am about as much a "true believer" as you are the Pope's favorite niece. The truth is the fact that only the extremely narrow (or stiffened as it may be) minded, could at this point in time with all the abundant support evidence available to us, dismiss UFOs so readily. That my friend TRULY requires more faith than any religious wacko I have ever encountered possessed.

You have ZERO argument "here" other than your limited "life time of experience". Admit it. Save yourself the aggravation of coming to the slow and painful conclusion that you no longer possess what it requires to be a true skeptic.

[Read-Only]

I am about as much a "true believer" as you are the Pope's favorite niece. The truth is the fact that only the extremely narrow (or stiffened as it may be) minded, could at this point in time with all the abundant support evidence available to us, dismiss UFOs so readily. That my friend TRULY requires more faith than any religious wacko I have ever encountered possessed.

You have ZERO argument "here" other than your limited "life time of experience". Admit it. Save yourself the aggravation of coming to the slow and painful conclusion that you no longer possess what it requires to be a true skeptic.

Ha-ha-ha! I'm as true a skeptic as anyone could possibly be!:D

And your "abundant support evidence?" Besides being poorly worded, you've got absolutely NO evidence beyond some poor-quality videos and highly questionable eye-witness testimony. And none of that stands up to even the most lax scientific scrutiny. That doesn't even come close to being valid evidence, much less abundant!

I know that you won't accept it - and I actually do feel sorry for you between bouts of laughter - but you, and all like you, are a bunch of delusionists and are accomplishing nothing with all this wasted effort.

[phlogistician]

Yep, that's why several of the most noteworthy & respected astronauts themselves contend that what they have observed via their missions unequivocally are intelligently controlled craft.

If you are referring to the NASA footage taken outside the space shuttle in which UFO activity was in fact documented, the same footage in which the proposed theory of ice particle and debris were carefully analyzed, only a moron would contend that "debris" could accelerate at incalculable speeds away from a 45 degree turn. What's that, applied cue ball english in space? LOL!
Gimme a break.


Show me the evidence, because I've met an astronaut, and he didn't share your views.

[electrafixtion]

Show me the evidence, because I've met an astronaut, and he didn't share your views.


http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc501.htm

[EndLightEnd]

So before we go any farther - even before I bother with your video - I challenge you to show proof of your claim "like that's ever stopped you before." Search the ENTIRE forum for all of my posts - put a LOT of effort into it! - and then, when you find absolutely nothing (as you will !!) - then come back like a man and make a full apology for your outrageous outburst!!

I'm waiting..............

If you want you can start another thread about this...if you really care to.

Stop trying to divert the thread from its topic, UFOs. Why would I waste my time looking up your posts, I dont care nearly as much as you do apparently.

And look you avoided the question again...

I see space debris, and ballistic motion of objects, not 'intelligent' motion.

It's exactly the same sort of stuff I've seen from an astronauts personal camcorder footage, plus I've seen ejecta from manouvering thrusters that creats and moves such debris.

You got nothing, in other words.

And Phlogistician, that video CLEARLY shows reaction. If you put your finger on where the glowing orb of light was before it moved, you will see the object flying up from earth passes exactly through the point where the UFO used to be. If you cant see this you truly have the blinders on.

Also as a completely seperate note, if there were that much space debris in space, ALL astronauts would be dead. Also since when does Space debris change direction on its own?:shrug:

[electrafixtion]

Ha-ha-ha! I'm as true a skeptic as anyone could possibly be!:D

And your "abundant support evidence?" Besides being poorly worded, you've got absolutely NO evidence beyond some poor-quality videos and highly questionable eye-witness testimony. And none of that stands up to even the most lax scientific scrutiny. That doesn't even come close to being valid evidence, much less abundant!

I know that you won't accept it - and I actually do feel sorry for you between bouts of laughter - but you, and all like you, are a bunch of delusionists and are accomplishing nothing with all this wasted effort.

Forgive me friend, but I feel the need to ask. Do you have a drinking problem? The truth is there is EXCELLENT quality footage. I kind of think you may be a bit out of the loop, so to speak. There is also a mountain of super credible eye witnesses. I'm not sure what you're thinking, or even if you are thinking, but you might want to check the facts before overtly discrediting your own awareness like you just did.

[Stryder]

Technically "Objects" in Space don't "Fly". (The physics of "Flight (http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/flight/physics.html)" uses Areodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodynamics) which is somewhat different to space travel which uses Astrodynamics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrodynamics)).

This basically means anyone claiming that a UFO was spotted *in* space is talking out of their posterior.

[electrafixtion]

Of course that and 4.00 will get you a good cup of coffee at Starbucks. Thing is, scientists as a majority don't seem to be able to come to grips with methods of travel other than those that already commonly exist. Most people that look at this thing seriously contend that they don't traverse distance in a way we are familiar with.

[Diode-Man]

And yet not one piece of actual hard, physical evidence exists. Isn't that odd?

And yet, there isn't any "hard evidence" that they DON'T exist, now is there?

:D

[Reiku]

Reiku, that just cost you the debate.

Atleast i haven't lost my marbels like read, in contrast to loosing any debate, because such debates fail round here to be debatable at all.

[Read-Only]

And yet, there isn't any "hard evidence" that they DON'T exist, now is there?

:D

Now that's almost funny - you DO realize, don't you, that it's impossible to prove a negative??

[Read-Only]

Atleast i haven't lost my marbels like read, in contrast to loosing any debate, because such debates fail round here to be debatable at all.

Silly, silly boy. I suppose by "marbels" you meant "marbles", right? I've lost no marbles at all - I'm not the one suffering from a mental defect, remember?

[phlogistician]

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc501.htm

From that site;

” Apollo Astronaut Alan Bean told the media, “It’s not true. No one, certainly not me and Pete Conrad, who I was with the whole time, saw anything that suggested ancient civilizations.” NASA spokesman Brian Welch added, “Everything we found, we made public.”

Then it descends into hearsay. You got a link to a non-conspiracist website?

[phlogistician]

And Phlogistician, that video CLEARLY shows reaction.

No it doesn't, it is impossible to judge the size and placing of the objects, you just don't know how big, or how far away they are, or how close to each other. You are implying a relationship between them, because that's what you want to see.

If you put your finger on where the glowing orb of light was before it moved, you will see the object flying up from earth passes exactly through the point where the UFO used to be. If you cant see this you truly have the blinders on.

UFO? I saw a dot a light, probably a speck of dust or small ice particle. I then saw that speck move, probably due to pressure from a manouvering thruster firing.

Also as a completely seperate note, if there were that much space debris in space, ALL astronauts would be dead.

Hardly, if it's just specks of dust moving at low speeds, close to the camera.

Also since when does Space debris change direction on its own?:shrug:

It doesn't, the manouvering thrusters disturb it.

Anyway, I have met an astronaut, and seen exactly this phenomena on footage he took, with sound, indicating the thrusters were firing at the time. You _want_ to believe it's something else. Boohoo for you, I know what you believe in is false. That's gotta hurt, but then the truth can. Deal with it.

[krokah]

I think it also depends on who you are asking. If you ask someone in the know in the government or other agencies they will tell you that there are no UFO's and would be able to pass a lie detector test. Thats because to them they know what is flying around up there or beneath our seas, so, no UFOs exist for them. For us and others, thats what they are. I think our government has been shielding the general population from that fact. We got that from the nazi government, a "state within a state". It exists just as advanced science and technology has been taken for it's use and repressed for the general population.

[Read-Only]

I think it also depends on who you are asking. If you ask someone in the know in the government or other agencies they will tell you that there are no UFO's and would be able to pass a lie detector test. Thats because to them they know what is flying around up there or beneath our seas, so, no UFOs exist for them. For us and others, thats what they are. I think our government has been shielding the general population from that fact. We got that from the nazi government, a "state within a state". It exists just as advanced science and technology has been taken for it's use and repressed for the general population.

Oh, well, yet another conspiracy nut crawls out from under a rock.

Yeah, it's the government again.:rolleyes:

Tell, us - don't you ever get tired of blaming the government for everything? Including the times your dinner burned because it was left in the oven too long?

[Oli]

We got that from the nazi government, a "state within a state".
That would be somewhat difficult owing to the fact that the Nazis didn't have this technology either.:rolleyes:

[phlogistician]

That would be somewhat difficult owing to the fact that the Nazis didn't have this technology either.:rolleyes:

Sure they did, and in 1945 they left Earth in their flying saucers and set up a secret base hidden on the dark side of the Moon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KEueJnsu80). :-)

This govt conspiracy stuff amuses me though. Governments have only recently had RADAR and fast jets at their disposal, and so the ability to detect, intercept, and conceal alien crashes and incursions etc, by being on the scene quickly.

Of course, now the public have very fast ways, via the Internet, of disseminating information, so if a witness got a picture, or video, there's now way a Govt could stop it spreading.

So, why was there no evidence being distrubuted before govts had the ability to intercept UFOs, and why do we not see such information disseminated now? The window for concealment is over.

[Oli]

Sure they did, and in 1945 they left Earth in their flying saucers and set up a secret base hidden on the dark side of the Moon
Shhh! You're not supposed to mention them

[electrafixtion]

From that site;

” Apollo Astronaut Alan Bean told the media, “It’s not true. No one, certainly not me and Pete Conrad, who I was with the whole time, saw anything that suggested ancient civilizations.” NASA spokesman Brian Welch added, “Everything we found, we made public.”

Then it descends into hearsay. You got a link to a non-conspiracist website?

My, my. How quick, incomplete, impulsive, and completely unintelligent an assessment by you. But that's not surprising considering how much VALID information and testimony that you and those of your "scientific" close minded ilk perpetuate. How predictable of you to pick and choose within the first few hundred words, out of the HUNDREDS of credible scientific and valid testimonies that follow, to support your RIDICULOUS conspiratorial bullshit anti this or that angle. You thoroughly bore me and if we were in a "real" face to face debate, you would have been laughed out of the room for such a childish manipulation. Are you and those bozos like "Read-Only (this book, cause it has lotza pictures) and MR. Oily what honestly constitutes the con of this debate within these forum "walls"? If so, the debate is over before it began because you have nothing of substance to counter with. All you do is try and perceptively shape the validity of a TREMENDOUS body of credible evidence like old ladies in line at a super market ogling the latest issue of The National Enquirer. If you can't get real, you'll never get a clue what this is about. It's almost as if fear itself is rowing your boats...nah! Couldn't be.

[craterchains (Norval]

, , , chuckles, STDD
Same Tactics Different Day

Where has skinny gone?

, , and a tip of the hat to flogger and striker unknown, , hows my IAC buddies doin?

[Read-Only]

My, my. How quick, incomplete, impulsive, and completely unintelligent an assessment by you. But that's not surprising considering how much VALID information and testimony that you and those of your "scientific" close minded ilk perpetuate. How predictable of you to pick and choose within the first few hundred words, out of the HUNDREDS of credible scientific and valid testimonies that follow, to support your RIDICULOUS conspiratorial bullshit anti this or that angle. You thoroughly bore me and if we were in a "real" face to face debate, you would have been laughed out of the room for such a childish manipulation. Are you and those bozos like "Read-Only (this book, cause it has lotza pictures) and MR. Oily what honestly constitutes the con of this debate within these forum "walls"? If so, the debate is over before it began because you have nothing of substance to counter with. All you do is try and perceptively shape the validity of a TREMENDOUS body of credible evidence like old ladies in line at a super market ogling the latest issue of The National Enquirer. If you can't get real, you'll never get a clue what this is about. It's almost as if fear itself is rowing your boats...nah! Couldn't be.

Quite the reverse, dummy! You do NOT have a "tremendous body of evidence" - again, just a bunch of low-quality, shaky videos and questionable eye-witness testimonies. NONE of that is ever considered solid scientific evidence.

And it's YOU who are like the little old ladies you mention - ready and eager to believe ANYTHING you hear or see that excites your imagination.:rolleyes:

What a grand bunch of under-educated, great non-thinkers you are!

Here's two straight-up questions directed at YOU personally: are you over the age of 25 and exactly what is your level of education? I expect the answer to the first one - if you are honest - is no. And the second is: high school only. Why? Because you clearly do not exhibit the ability to discern fact from fiction that only comes from having enough education and experience in life to do so. More so than ANY other factors, youth equals gullibility.

[electrafixtion]

Quite the reverse, dummy! You do NOT have a "tremendous body of evidence" - again, just a bunch of low-quality, shaky videos and questionable eye-witness testimonies. NONE of that is ever considered solid scientific evidence.

And it's YOU who are like the little old ladies you mention - ready and eager to believe ANYTHING you hear or see that excites your imagination.:rolleyes:

What a grand bunch of under-educated, great non-thinkers you are!

Here's two straight-up questions directed at YOU personally: are you over the age of 25 and exactly what is your level of education? I expect the answer to the first one - if you are honest - is no. And the second is: high school only. Why? Because you clearly do not exhibit the ability to discern fact from fiction that only comes from having enough education and experience in life to do so. More so than ANY other factors, youth equals gullibility.


Your insults are pathetic. I think you could do better but I will answer your quandary with a question.

Does, or does not, the VERIFIED record CLEARLY indicate that Gordon Cooper, Life Scout, retired astronaut and aviation EXPERT, claim publicly that UFOs are a very REAL phenomenon and that it was his personal contention that UFOs are controlled intelligently by extraterrestrials?

I'm waiting for your answer smart ass.

WTF are you thinking? Do you want at least 10 more just as credible eye witnesses to UFO activity your ass holiness? If so, just speak up cause as per usual there is presently the makings of a great omelet all over your face.

ROTFLMAO!!! What a maroon!

[Oli]

Does, or does not, the VERIFIED record CLEARLY indicate that Gordon Cooper, Life Scout, retired astronaut and aviation EXPERT, claim publicly that UFOs are a very REAL phenomenon and that it was his personal contention that UFOs are controlled intelligently by extraterrestrials?
He can claim whatever he likes: without evidence he's just talking.

[electrafixtion]

He can claim whatever he likes: without evidence he's just talking.

Well my friend, using your own definition, then you're just talking as well correct? Thing is, he's qualified to talk, You're not. Guess we all know where the credible argument lies and where the BS takes over. Loser!!!

[Oli]

Well my friend, using your own definition, then you're just talking as well correct? Thing is, he's qualified to talk, You're not. Guess we all know where the credible argument lies and where the BS takes over. Looser!!!
Two slight errors and one assumption there:
He's making a claim that something exists - I'm merely stating there's no evidence.
He's qualified? Really?
Eye-witness testimony is not reliable.
As already exampled in this and similar threads.
So you don't actually read the posts, you just respond to them with badly-written insults?

Thing is, he's qualified to talk, You're not.
In point of fact his qualifications on that score are probably less than mine.

[Read-Only]

Your insults are pathetic. I think you could do better but I will answer your quandary with a question.

Does, or does not, the VERIFIED record CLEARLY indicate that Gordon Cooper, Life Scout, retired astronaut and aviation EXPERT, claim publicly that UFOs are a very REAL phenomenon and that it was his personal contention that UFOs are controlled intelligently by extraterrestrials?

I'm waiting for your answer smart ass.

WTF are you thinking? Do you want at least 10 more just as credible eye witnesses to UFO activity your ass holiness? If so, just speak up cause as per usual there is presently the makings of a great omelet all over your face.

ROTFLMAO!!! What a maroon!

So I see you choose to dodge two very simple questions. That's pretty good confirmation that my suspicions about you were right on target. You're nothing but an under-educated kid who we shouldn't expect anything intelligent from.

Do yourself, and us, a BIG favor - get back into school (if you aren't still just in high school already).:D

[Reiku]

Silly, silly boy. I suppose by "marbels" you meant "marbles", right? I've lost no marbles at all - I'm not the one suffering from a mental defect, remember?

Typo.

And my mental defect, as you put it, does not restrict me from a living a healthy normal life. Which is better than what i can say about people who have no excuses whatsoever.

And in the future, if you want to use my ''mental defect'' against me, call it by its proper name, of autism.

[Read-Only]

If you want you can start another thread about this...if you really care to.


Well, that just put you in the same class as another dummy here - you both run off at the mouth and make claims that you cannot back up.

Welcome to the club of LIARS, bub! You and that snotty little English guy living in Scotland should really get together. You are two birds of a feather.

[EndLightEnd]

Add these two to the club of liars as well...

"I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth."
---President Harry S. Truman, 1950.

"In the firm belief that the American public deserves a better explanation than that thus far given by the Air Force, I strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation of the UFO phenomena. I think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding UFOs, and to produce the greatest possible enlightenment of the subject."
---President Gerald Ford

But yea your right, you probably never used profanities. Doesnt stop you from being an asshole though does it?

And you STILL havent answered the original question. Avoiding it much?

[Read-Only]

Add these two to the club of liars as well...

"I can assure you that flying saucers, given that they exist, are not constructed by any power on earth."
---President Harry S. Truman, 1950.

"In the firm belief that the American public deserves a better explanation than that thus far given by the Air Force, I strongly recommend that there be a committee investigation of the UFO phenomena. I think we owe it to the people to establish credibility regarding UFOs, and to produce the greatest possible enlightenment of the subject."
---President Gerald Ford

But yea your right, you probably never used profanities. Doesnt stop you from being an asshole though does it?

And you STILL havent answered the original question. Avoiding it much?

I'm not in any position to judge what those two men thought. And incidentally, Truman's middle name was simply "S" without the period. It wasn't and abbreviation for anything just the plain letter S.

Yes, I never use profanity OR vulgarities either. I have no need of either to get my points across.

And I've NO idea what "original question" you're talking about. I avoid nothing - unlike YOU!!! Restate it.

[EndLightEnd]

And incidentally, Truman's middle name was simply "S" without the period. It wasn't and abbreviation for anything just the plain letter S.

Thanks?:bugeye:


And I've NO idea what "original question" you're talking about. I avoid nothing - unlike YOU!!! Restate it.

Right here...

Explain to me which natural phenomena caused this object to intelligently move out of the way of an incoming object.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN0XnDJKdWo&feature=related

[Read-Only]

Thanks?:bugeye:



Right here...

You have got to be kidding!!!!!! You actually believe that grainy clip shows a "ground-based PULSE WEAPON" firing at a UFO??????????????????

Oh, man - you really WILL believe anything, won't you??????????

<VERY LOUD LAUGHTER!!!!!!!!!!!>

Tell us, please (maybe I can stop laughing at you long enough to read your response), where was this video made, who shot it and exactly who verifies it's authenticity???

[Reiku]

Actually, in the 1990's NASA also caught on radar, two mysterious objects that intelligently escaped two misile like objects that where shot from earth. The footage was taken to GMTV, a morning news television show, and it was one the presenters that observed the second unidentified object evade a misile like object, which had previously not been seen.

It seems, that something on Earth knew what it was, to make such a frantic and yet, desperate attempt to get these intelligently flying systems away from Earth atmosphere.

[Stryder]

Reiku, GMTV has been infiltrated a number of times by such people as "The Yes Men (http://www.theyesmen.org/)" I really wouldn't suggest anything they showed to be more than entertainment especially with no one credible to back it up. (Makes you wonder how many of those supposed credible scientists that claim aliens exist aren't in fact "Yes Men")

[Steve100]

If you put your finger on where the glowing orb of light was before it moved, you will see the object flying up from earth passes exactly through the point where the UFO used to be. If you cant see this you truly have the blinders on.

Whilst I already completely doubted this video, I decided to give this a go.

Guess what?

The "Ground based pulse weapon" shot no where near the UFO.

[phlogistician]

My, my. How quick, incomplete, impulsive, and completely unintelligent an assessment by you. But that's not surprising considering how much VALID information and testimony ...

'testimony' ah, what a word. I don't just believe people when they assert things. I'm not of a gullible nature, nor do I want to believe; I want to be shown.

So, it comes down to evidence. I like evidence, I used to be a scientist, and work with other scientists, and people who make and operate satellites, and I met an astronaut while doing this, and various people in the defense industry, and others in related industries involved in remote sensing and Earth imaging, and astronomers, and you know what? Not one of them, with all the satellites pointing both up and down, taking pictures every minute of the day, ever, captured a UFO.

Despite the prevalence of recording equipment in the hands of the public, camcorders, cameras on cellphones, digital cameras, and the Internet to disseminate the evidence, we still don't see good evidence, just shaky over zoomed blobs of light, never actual controlled flight demonstrated, never a landing, never anything in the sight line for reference of size, heading, or location.

So, answer me why is this? Also, like I said earlier, Govts have only recently had RADAR and fast jets, and the abilitity to detect and intercept, and arrive on site of alleged UFO events recently, and therefore the head start on stifling any word escaping. Why weren't UFO's common knowledge before world Govts had this power?

So, my position is, we didn't see them previously, we don't see them now, .... what is it you see?