Islam, and the Problems it Causes, by the Cults of Personality.

[Buffalo Roam]

Islam as far as I can see, has a problem with the world because it has become a cult tied to the Personalities of the Various leaders who practice this religion.

Each part of Islam is associated with a different, Caliph,

According to Sunnis he is ideally a member of the Quraysh tribe elected by Muslims or their representatives.

According to Shia Islam, an Imam descended in a line from the Ahl al-Bayt.

The Umayyads

The Abbasids

The Fatimids

The Ottomans

Each and every Caliph, (based on the notion of a successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad's authority.) has placed his own mark on Islam, and in doing so, today there is a fight as to who is the right full Caliph of Islam.

Osama Bin Laden leads a cult of personality under his ideas of advancing the World Caliphate under the Sharia and Quran.

Mullah Omar's established his Idea of Islam based on his own interpertation of the Quran and Sharia.

The Ahyotollia Khomeni, in Iran, change Iran to suit his thought on Islam and its tenets.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India, who claimed to be the promised Messiah and Mahdi, the one awaited by followers of all major religions, who bent Islam to his own purpose. After his demise in 1908, his first successor Noor-ud-Din became head of the community and assumed the title of Khalifatul Masih (Caliph of the Messiah). The line of successors continues to this day, the current head being Mirza Masroor Ahmad, residing in London. From the outset the Ahmadiyya community has been viewed as heretical by other Muslim groups due to the founder's claim to prophethood. Muslims hold the view that Muhammad was the final rasul (prophet) and no apostle can come after him. Ahmadis however argue the possibility and need of subordinate prophethood to Muhammad. Ahmadis call themself Muslims and claim to practice Islam in its pristine form

The Ahmadiyya caliphate is not recognised by mainstream Islam, Sunni and Shia.

So what is Islam that so many have made it a cult to their personality?

[S.A.M.]

What is Ahl al Bait? Is it like The American Way©

[nirakar]

Over the last 1200 years Islam has not caused as many problems as Christianity has.

Cults of personality can easily form around either Christian or Muslim leaders.

In this last decade as socialism and other forms secular idealism have been largely abandoned religious traditionalism and extremism has reasserted itself in all around the world via many different religions.

There are Four notable things that make Islamic extremism seem different than Christian Extremism:
1 Wounded pride; Christians societies are dominant and Islamic societies are weaker.

2 Victorianism (minus Victoria); Islamic lands never went as far down the wild and crazy, slutty, liberated, gender bending, confusing path as the Christian West did. Islamic Hedonism can be wrongly blamed on the Wests perverted hedonistic influences. Islam will have to find it's own way of dealing with feminist demands for justice. Western criticism of Islamic patriarchy won't help anything.

3 Western Propaganda, Israel backers have their reasons to smear Arabs and Islam and the Neocon's need a public enemy if they want the people of the west to give them permission to use Western tax money in their attempt to dominate the world. Perhaps if Russia throws it's weight around a bit Russia could once again replace Islam as the prime enemy.

4 Islam is the other religion and Christian Extremists have always been antagonistic towards other religions. Jews and native Americans have experienced how vicious Christians can be when they rationalize being hateful towards "the others".

[Buffalo Roam]

Over the last 1200 years Islam has not caused as many problems as Christianity has.

Cults of personality can easily form around either Christian or Muslim leaders.

In this last decade as socialism and other forms secular idealism have been largely abandoned religious traditionalism and extremism has reasserted itself in all around the world via many different religions.

There are Four notable things that make Islamic extremism seem different than Christian Extremism:
1 Wounded pride; Christians societies are dominant and Islamic societies are weaker.

2 Victorianism (minus Victoria); Islamic lands never went as far down the wild and crazy, slutty, liberated, gender bending, confusing path as the Christian West did. Islamic Hedonism can be wrongly blamed on the Wests perverted hedonistic influences. Islam will have to find it's own way of dealing with feminist demands for justice. Western criticism of Islamic patriarchy won't help anything.

3 Western Propaganda, Israel backers have their reasons to smear Arabs and Islam and the Neocon's need a public enemy if they want the people of the west to give them permission to use Western tax money in their attempt to dominate the world. Perhaps if Russia throws it's weight around a bit Russia could once again replace Islam as the prime enemy.

4 Islam is the other religion and Christian Extremists have always been antagonistic towards other religions. Jews and native Americans have experienced how vicious Christians can be when they rationalize being hateful towards "the others".

Moslems Have always been extreamly antagonistic towards any other religion,
and it doesn't matter what that religion is, It kills all, who are not Molsem, and even it's own over who is the rightfull Caliph to Mohammad.

Seems Mohammad place his Personality on Islam from the begining:

I have stated below just a few of the verses from the Koran, which support this fact. As the Koran is supposed to be timeless and universal, the verses in it hold true even today and are used everyday by pious Muslims to justify their brutal and terrorist activities.

1. (Koran 8:12) "Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."

In the above verse the great prophet of Islam, Mohammed, is giving step by step instructions on how to torture and kill the unbelievers if they don't follow Islam. He is clearly instructing Muslims to commit cold-blooded murder in the name of religion.


2. (Koran 2:216) "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that you hate a thing which is good for you and it may happen that you love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, you knew not."

By stating the above verse, Mohammed completely absolved himself from all blame for having murdered innocents. The most insidious and devilish implication of this verse is that God is completely justifying Mohammed�s murder of the innocent Meccans. The import of this verse is that killing and violence are JUSTIFIED for Muslims, because they are doing it by divine ordinance! It is a religious duty of every Muslim to murder anyone who comes in the way of Islam. Since it is also the duty of every Muslim to ensure that the entire world is converted to Islam by force if necessary, one must directly conclude that it is the religious duty of Muslims to kill all those who are non-Muslim. This conclusion is derived directly from the supreme edict of Allah, who admonishes that even the Muslim who feels it is wrong to kill, must murder in the name of Allah, otherwise he is not a true Muslim. Over and above this, Mohammed is hypocritically implying that warfare is hateful to him, but he participated in it because God ordained it.

1) India - Muslims have been terrorizing this country since the 7th century AD. Muslim regimes throughout India have a record of unparalleled terror and torture described in gory detail by contemporary Muslim chronicles themselves. Subjecting all non-Muslims to abject atrocities, plundering their wealth, abducting their women and usurping their houses of worship to be used as mosques and tombs, has been considered sacred duty of every Muslim. Such acts earned for the tormentors the coveted title of Ghazi, to be paraded as a citation of great Islamic glory and greatness. Aurangzeb, one of the last Muslim emperors had 10,000 Hindus massacred everyday for an entire year. He alone was responsible for the massacre of at least 3,650,000 Hindus and destruction of more than 11,000 Hindu temples. William Durant, author of the voluminous "Story of Civilization" has described the Muslim conquests in India as constituting the saddest and goriest chapter in human history. Muslims have destroyed and looted the whole country and have killed countless innocent Hindus in the process.

(3) Bangladesh - Bangladesh was a part of India before the Muslim terrorists led by Mohammed Ali Jinnah separated it from India in 1947. It was then called East Pakistan. Jinnah lied to the thirteen million Hindus, Buddhists and Christians in East Pakistan and told them that they would not be persecuted against. He promised that they would be given full freedom under the Islamic rule. However, these religious minorities�especially the Hindus and the Buddhists have been tortured, raped and murdered by the pious Muslims ever since 1947. Over 2.5 million Hindus alone were slaughtered during the Pakistan-Bangladesh war in 1971. The types of crimes committed were perfectly in accordance with the Koran. Robert E. Burns, the author of Wrath of Allah states, "The mutilation was disgusting�eyes gouged out, pregnant women disemboweled, male genitals cut off, women�s breasts cut off�.."

(4) Egypt - Egypt has been terrorized by Muslims since the time of Umar II (8th Century AD.). With Umar�s raid on Egypt began the destruction of Egypt�s Christians. Their Churches were destroyed, Umar imposed Jizya�a special tax that was invented by Mohammed , where all the "non-believers" had to pay or face death. They lost ownership of all their land and had to pay a special land tax, kharaj, simply in order to use it . They were ridiculed, made to wear discriminatory clothing and were made to ride on donkeys. Anyone not complying with the wishes of the Islamic terrorists was tortured to death in absolute accordance with the Koran. The ongoing Islamic terrorist attacks on innocent people in Egypt even today prove that Islamic terrorism is alive and kicking in this country as well. In this country the tourists are special targets of the Muslim terrorists. Just last year in Cairo, the pious followers of Mohammed murdered an entire bus load of German tourists. In another incident, Muslim fundamentalists killed more than 40 tourists near the Pyramids.

(5) Algeria - Algeria has been under Islamic terrorist attack for quite some time now. Accurate casualty figures are difficult to acquire, but as many as 50,000 Algerians (militants, security personnel, and civilians) have died as a result of the nearly four-year-old insurgency. Even the U.S. embassy's warehouse was the target of Islamic terrorists. They set fire to the warehouse and threatened to kill the security guard just because he was working for the United States. The Islamic terrorist organization which carries out most of these attacks is called GIA (Algerian Armed Islamic Group). The GIA was responsible for the deaths of 31 foreigners in Algeria in 1995, compared to at least 64 in 1994. Most of the foreigners killed were "soft targets," such as teachers and nuns. Cowardly Islamic terrorists, conform to this pattern of targeting the most vulnerable and helpless segment of the population, in imitation of Prophet Mohammed's life. From July to October, a terrorist bombing campaign in France began against civilian targets, killing eight persons and wounding 160. And such attacks continue on even today in Algeria.

(6) Pakistan - Like East Pakistan (Bangladesh), Pakistan was also founded by the terrorist leader, Mohammed Ali Jinnah. Ever since its foundation, Pakistan has sponsored terrorism and Islamic terrorist groups all over the world. Pakistan�s main focus of terrorist activity has always been India. This nation is obsessed with the downfall of India and will do anything to accomplish this goal. It has gone to war with India three times in the past and failed miserably all three times. Pakistan continues to support Islamic terrorist organizations such as Harakat ul-Ansar (HUA) and Al-Faran. Al-Faran is the group that claimed responsibility for the kidnapping in Kashmir of two US citizens, two Britons, a German, and a Norwegian. Other Pakistan-backed groups have claimed responsibility for numerous bombings in Kashmir, including one against foreign journalists.


The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանութիւն, Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı), also known as the Armenian Holocaust, the Armenian Massacres and, by Armenians, the Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն)—refers to the deliberate and systematic destruction (genocide) of the Armenian population of the Ottoman Empire during and just after World War I. It was characterised by the use of massacres, and the use of deportations involving forced marches under conditions designed to lead to the death of the deportees, with the total number of Armenian deaths generally held to have been between one and one-and-a-half million. Other ethnic groups were similarly attacked by the Empire during this period, including Assyrians and Greeks, and some scholars consider the events to be part of the same policy of extermination
The Dar al-Islam does not recognise any ‘interfaith council’, and neither does it recognise the Jewish holocaust. Its truth is immutable, and its history inviolable. Anything which does not accord with its politico-theology is purged: if necessary, gradually, but certainly most thoroughly. When a battle has been won in the Dar al-Harb, the territory belongs to the Dar al-Islam. There may be no reversion without Jihad, and Jihad will be waged until there is victory.

During mid-November, 2007, a grim milestone was recorded in the macabre tally being kept assiduously in cyberspace by blogger Glen Reinsford: the 10,000th attack by jihad terrorists resulting in some 60,000 dead and 90,000 injured since the cataclysmic acts of jihad terrorism on September 11, 2001.

Reinsford does not include combat-related statistics, and he acknowledges that the death toll may increase in the days and months following any given attack (as victims die from their injuries), and this rarely gets reported. His tally also excludes the genocide in Darfur committed by the Islamic government in Sudan, and their marauding jihadist militias (the Janjaweed), whose murderous ravages the UN estimated last year had resulted in some 400,000 dead, and 2 million displaced.

And every Imam and Ahatollya and Goat hearder with a vision ever since.

[S.A.M.]

Just look at any continent occupied by Muslims vs those occupied by Christians. Where have the natives been decimated or thrown into reservations?

[Buffalo Roam]

Just look at any continent occupied by Muslims vs those occupied by Christians. Where have the natives been decimated or thrown into reservations?

From my view point as a Infidel'

Any were the Moslems raised their Mosques, only they call them Infidels, Zimmis, and Dhimmis, (not natives), and to stay alive you accept second class status and pay for the privilege, to live.

You have to remain in your own enclave/Reservation, and don't piss off the Moslems, by praying to loud, trying to convert any Moslems, or any one else to your religion, don't hold any of your festivals were it will be seen by a Moslem, that will piss them off, Don't display the symbols of your religion, that will piss them off, Don't build a new part to your house of worship, that will piss them off, Don't have a Church with a tower Higher than the Mosque, that will piss them off, and the penalty for pissing off a Moslem is Death, or at the very least one hell of a beating, the rape and sodomizing of your women and children.

[Buffalo Roam]

So you sent your son to other countries too? How many people did he kill?

As many as your sons.

[one_raven]

Fred Phelps
Pat Robertson
Jim Baker
Al Sharpton
Oral Roberts
The list goes on and on.

Islam most certainly does not own the exclusive rights to cult of personality.

[Buffalo Roam]

Fred Phelps
Pat Robertson
Jim Baker
Al Sharpton
Oral Roberts
The list goes on and on.

Islam most certainly does not own the exclusive rights to cult of personality.

But their cults of personality leads to massive death and destruction even of their own.

[one_raven]

I would argue that Fred Phelps congregation is easily as evil as any of the worst Islamic congregations.

Plus, be fair and compare apples to apples.
Have you never heard of Christian separatsist/white supremacist movements?
Have you never heard of Elohim (who funded McVeigh)?

As much as I hate to arm Sam in her non-sensical and non-sequitur rants, here is some information...
http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/tergps/tgdom.htm

I am not saying American Chirtisans are evil, I am saying that if you are going to look at Muslim extremist groups, perhaps you would do well to educate yourself on religious extremists that are not Muslim.
Otherwise you may just end up prejudice.

[Buffalo Roam]

I would argue that Fred Phelps congregation is easily as evil as any of the worst Islamic congregations.

Plus, be fair and compare apples to apples.
Have you never heard of Christian separatsist/white supremacist movements?
Have you never heard of Elohim (who funded McVeigh)?

As much as I hate to arm Sam in her non-sensical and non-sequitur rants, here is some information...
http://www.au.af.mil/au/aul/bibs/tergps/tgdom.htm

I am not saying American Chirtisans are evil, I am saying that if you are going to look at Muslim extremist groups, perhaps you would do well to educate yourself on religious extremists that are
not Muslim.
Otherwise you may just end up prejudice.

The thing is I have, all because of SAM, maybe you need to do a little more research into Fundamentalist Islam.

We prosecute those of our fringe religions who murder and bomb, the Protestant Church,
or the Catholic Church doesn't support the
Fringe, in any violence.

We turn them in, and we don't condone their Crusade, like SAM does if they are on Jihad,
and dismiss all of their actions, as a moral equivalent.

Now show me were any of those you have listed have come anywhere near this:

During mid-November, 2007, a grim milestone was recorded in the macabre tally being kept assiduously in cyberspace by blogger
Glen Reinsford: the 10,000th attack by jihad terrorists resulting in some 60,000 dead and 90,000 injured since the cataclysmic acts of jihad
terrorism on September 11, 2001. ”

“ Reinsford does not include combat-related statistics, and he acknowledges that the death toll may increase in the days and months following any given attack (as victims die from their injuries), and this
rarely gets reported. His tally also excludes the genocide in Darfur
committed by the Islamic government in Sudan, and their marauding
jihadist militias (the Janjaweed), whose murderous ravages the UN
estimated last year had resulted in some 400,000 dead, and 2 million displaced.

The religion of Womens Rights:

Yea, some muslim women don't look so human after they piss their husbands off :

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/79702423.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193E3617A565CE04E2DF741EEF29D602FB8 284831B75F48EF45

I wonder what NOW would do if American men did this to their wives ?

[one_raven]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm

[Buffalo Roam]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/islfatwa.htm

Well send that to all of the Imam and Ayatollahs that write supporting Fatwas of Jihad, against the west.

You want to paint me against all Moslems, I spent two years studying the Bahi, and have absolutely no problem with them, or their tenets, now as for SAM, and Shia, Sunni, and Whab, their actions speak louder then I ever could, just look at Shia of Iran and their assault on the Bahi, Islam at it's finest.

[one_raven]

And look at the Christian separatist groups.
Are they violent because they are Christian?
I can point to many passages in the Bible that suppoort their violence against others.
What's the difference?

The point is, religious violence has nothing to do with religion - it is just used as an excuse or justification.

[Buffalo Roam]

And look at the Christian separatist groups.
Are they violent because they are Christian?
I can point to many passages in the Bible that suppoort their violence against others.
What's the difference?

The point is, religious violence has nothing to do with religion - it is just used as an excuse or justification.

Religious
Religious groups and sects believe they should interact primarily with co-religionists.

English Christians in the 16th and 17th centuries who wished to separate from the Church of England and form independent local churches were influential politically under Oliver Cromwell, who was himself a Separatist. They were eventually called Congregationalists. [12]

The Pilgrims who established the first successful colony in New England were separatists.

Zionism sought the creation of the state of Israel as a Jewish homeland.

Muslim groups may seek to separate from each other, especially the Sunni and Shiite sects in Iraq and Lebanon.

Russia, China, India and the Philippines have Muslim-separatist groups.
Some British Muslims seek to have Sharia law recognized in predominantly Muslim areas of Britain.[13]

Indonesia currently has both Christian and Muslim separatist groups. Predominantly Christian East Timor separated from Indonesia in 2002.[14]

Members of animist and Christian tribes in Sudan seek to separate from the Muslim-dominated government.[15]

Is this what you are refering to?

Seems that they are trying to protect themselves from Islam.


Some Sikhs in India sought an independent nation of Khalistan during the 1970s and 1980s. The Khalistan movement inside India largely ended with the Inidan military Operation Blue Star against Sikh militants and the retaliatory assassination of the then Prime Minister of India Indira Gandhi. However, some outside India still support such a movement.[16]

[S.A.M.]

You forgot the Jharkand Mukti Morcha, the Uttaranchal project and the LTTE. Kashmir too. Hawaii still has a separatist group, as do the native Americans. The KKK is still functional, as are the neo-Nazis.

Are you an athiest now?

[iceaura]

We turn them in, and we don't condone their Crusade, Some of us do. Eric Rudolph had the protection and support of a community of like-minded folks. So did McVeigh.

[Avatar]

Modnote: Please stick to discussing problems inherit in particular religions, not psychological problems of particular persons. Offtopic will be deleted.

[one_raven]

You want to paint me against all Moslems

Actually, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument that Islam is somehow unique in its cult of personality aspect and this is the root of its "problems".

[Buffalo Roam]

Actually, I'm just pointing out the flaws in your argument that Islam is somehow unique in its cult of personality aspect and this is the root of its "problems".


And just how does this aspect and cult of personalities not apply to Islam in killing it's own apply? or their destruction of any other community not of the Ummah?

Show me any other Religion that is as hostile to other religions and cultures as Islam, as Interpreted by their Imam and Ayatollahs.

Yes a small community did provide cover for Eric Rudolph, but the greater community turned him in.

So as a society we do not approve of those action at any were the level of Islam as expounded by the Imam and Ayatollahs, especially from the middle east, not only the Imam and Ayatollahs, but every little bigot of a Jihad commander who leads this terrorist war.

[S.A.M.]

Does Guantanamo, Bagram and Abu Ghraib ring a bell? Boiling Japanese skulls? Sodomising Iraqi kids? We don't do body counts? Collateral damages? Waterboarding is not torture? Genocide of native Americans? Sending cluster bombs to kill Lebanese kids? Funding extremists to destroy secular societies? The Jewish Holocaust? Eugenics? ragheads, niggers, kikes, nips? The Crusades? Eating the dead Muslims?

As for Christians killing Christians, do two world wars count? The Dark Ages? The Spanish Inquisition? The US interventions in Latin America? The torture training school of the Americas? The KKK?

[Buffalo Roam]

You forgot the Jharkand Mukti Morcha, the Uttaranchal project and the LTTE. Kashmir too. Hawaii still has a separatist group, as do the native Americans. The KKK is still functional, as are the neo-Nazis.

Are you an athiest now?

No, but you are a moral hypocrite.


Jharkand Mukti Morcha? who are under attack from Maoist Terrorist?

Uttaranchal, and? a state in India?

LTTE, is still not a Christian action, and as compared to Islam on the Richter scale, it is a .001.

And again do the LTTE base their attacks against all other religions? NO.

Hawaii still has a separatist group,

And those groups practice peaceful protest, and have committed no suicide bombing, especially against their own race/religion

Native Americans, the same can be said of them.

The KKK is still functional, as are the neo-Nazis,

And when they break the law they are arrested, charge, tried, and convicted, again the Society as a whole does not support or defend their actions, and they are less than 1% of the population, unlike the 33%+ of Islam who are violent.

That is the Rub, You SAM, make a direct Moral Relativism between these small groups who do not kill those of their own, to Islam, which as a community seems to give tacit support,

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[S.A.M.]

Very unbiased media. Let me guess. All Christians/Jews spreading love and liberation.

[Buffalo Roam]

Very unbiased media. Let me guess. All Christians/Jews spreading love and liberation.

Sorry it doesn't fit your Islamic Bias, of Moslem Victimhood, and template that its all the infidels fault for defending there God/Gods, Family, State, Country from the Islamic all consuming Jihad.

[S.A.M.]

Lets take a look around shall we? Occupations, death squads, sodomising kids in front of parents, death by torture, collateral damages, we don't do body counts, is Obama a Muslim, etc.

Jesus must be rolling in his grave, spinning so fast you could probably power a Middle Eastern country with the energy.

[(Q)]

Lets take a look around shall we?

I love it when Sam decides to "look around" when it suits her agenda. It's like a mole poking it's head out of the ground.

[S.A.M.]

You're right, we should overlook the countries being bombed, the thousands held in secret locations without access to justice who are being tortured, the millions dead and focus on why some people are so backward in those regions, compared to all the advanced secularists who are bombing raping torturing and killing them.

[(Q)]

You're right, we should overlook the countries being bombed, the thousands held in secret locations without access to justice who are being tortured, the millions dead and focus on why some people are so backward in those regions, compared to all the advanced secularists who are bombing raping torturing and killing them.

You can look at what Muslims are doing to their own, yes. Feel free.

[S.A.M.]

What do you think of the US practice of kidnapping people in foreign countries and sending them to Gitmo? Do you have an opinion on it?

[(Q)]

What do you think of the US practice of kidnapping people in foreign countries and sending them to Gitmo? Do you have an opinion on it?

What do you think of the atrocities on Dalits in India? Do you have an opinion?

[S.A.M.]

What do you think of the atrocities on Dalits in India? Do you have an opinion?

Yeah and I've given it elsewhere on this forum. Now back to you.:)

[Buffalo Roam]

Yeah and I've given it elsewhere on this forum. Now back to you.:)

What do you think of the atrocities committed on Moslem's in Iraq, committed by Moslems, Shia against Sunni, Sunni against Shia, Sunnis and Shia, against Bahi? Islam against all other religions? Do you have an opinion?

[S.A.M.]

The same backward places where dictators have been established, funded and armed by the US? Those places? Tell me why your government is supporting these dictators.

[(Q)]

Yeah and I've given it elsewhere on this forum. Now back to you.:)

Ah yes, that's right, you support the atrocities. Thanks.

Btw, did your family at any time own Dalits?

No, honestly?

:roflmao:

[S.A.M.]

I am part scheduled caste, maybe we were owned at some time and hence the conversion to Islam, to escape the caste system. Does that make you feel better? Now back to you.

What do you think of the US practice of kidnapping people in foreign countries and sending them to Gitmo? Do you have an opinion on it?

I want to get the rational opinion of an atheist.

[nirakar]

Buffalo Roam,

There is a cult of personality around the Pope. The cults of personality around Peter and Paul shaped the church.

What Is Christianity without the cult of personality around Jesus?

Emperor Constantine changed the Roman world and changed Christianity.

The Crusaders were supposed to conquer the Holy Land but their Venetian sailors took them to Venice's rival Christian Constantinople which they sacked and looted in the name of Jesus and thereby weakened Constantinople's ability to defend itself from the Muslim Ottomans.

All the Catholic Saints have cults of personality.

What about Martin Luther and Calvin? Why did Catholics and Protestants fight the 30 years war in Germany.

Who are the whack Jobs giving that cult of personality leader Pat Robertson money? Pat Robertson is evil as far as I am concerned.

All sorts of Evangelists have been the centers of cults of personality and they reinterpret scripture in any way that feels right to them.

Every Minister or Pastor decides which parts of the Bible to Read from and which parts to ignore. They also combine the Bible text with ideas and stories that are not in the Bible thereby making many individual versions of Christianity.

What about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians?
Jim Jones, Peoples Temple was a Christian Cult of Personality.

What about the Mormons and Brigham Young?
What about Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Scientists?

One of my ancestors Edward Wightman was burned at the stake for Heresy.
Witches were hung.

Many Christian people are making Ronald Reagan into some kind of saint and practically worshiping him.

Any time I want I can turn on the radio and find some pastor "revealing" "hidden truths" that he or his fellow pastors have found in scripture. Who is the Anti-Christ this week Mahmoud Abbas or Barak Obama.

And the Christian Crackpots on the radio tell me that the USA and Israel will fight a war against Russia, the Arabs and the United Nations after which Jesus will come again and defeat the Anti-Christ. The world will be destroyed and god will save only those who accept Jesus as their lord and savior. The others will be doomed to eternal suffering for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Even if the religious Muslims are insane what is the point? For Christians or Jews to criticize the Muslims is the pot calling the kettle black. It is Hypocrisy. It is ugly, mean and pointless.
We don't need protection from the Muslims, the Muslims need protection from us.
Your bad guys and heroes are just comic book nonsense. Reality is far more complex.


Mathew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Mathew 22:37
34 But the Pharisees, hearing that he had silenced the Sadducees, came together. 35 And one of them, a doctor of the law, asked him, tempting him: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

[Buffalo Roam]

Buffalo Roam,

There is a cult of personality around the Pope. The cults of personality around Peter and Paul shaped the church.

What Is Christianity without the cult of personality around Jesus?

Emperor Constantine changed the Roman world and changed Christianity.

The Crusaders were supposed to conquer the Holy Land but their Venetian sailors took them to Venice's rival Christian Constantinople which they sacked and looted in the name of Jesus and thereby weakened Constantinople's ability to defend itself from the Muslim Ottomans.

All the Catholic Saints have cults of personality.

What about Martin Luther and Calvin? Why did Catholics and Protestants fight the 30 years war in Germany.

Who are the whack Jobs giving that cult of personality leader Pat Robertson money? Pat Robertson is evil as far as I am concerned.

All sorts of Evangelists have been the centers of cults of personality and they reinterpret scripture in any way that feels right to them.

Every Minister or Pastor decides which parts of the Bible to Read from and which parts to ignore. They also combine the Bible text with ideas and stories that are not in the Bible thereby making many individual versions of Christianity.

What about David Koresh and the Branch Davidians?
Jim Jones, Peoples Temple was a Christian Cult of Personality.

What about the Mormons and Brigham Young?
What about Mary Baker Eddy and the Christian Scientists?

One of my ancestors Edward Wightman was burned at the stake for Heresy.
Witches were hung.

Many Christian people are making Ronald Reagan into some kind of saint and practically worshiping him.

Any time I want I can turn on the radio and find some pastor "revealing" "hidden truths" that he or his fellow pastors have found in scripture. Who is the Anti-Christ this week Mahmoud Abbas or Barak Obama.

And the Christian Crackpots on the radio tell me that the USA and Israel will fight a war against Russia, the Arabs and the United Nations after which Jesus will come again and defeat the Anti-Christ. The world will be destroyed and god will save only those who accept Jesus as their lord and savior. The others will be doomed to eternal suffering for not accepting Jesus as their savior.

Even if the religious Muslims are insane what is the point? For Christians or Jews to criticize the Muslims is the pot calling the kettle black. It is Hypocrisy. It is ugly, mean and pointless.
We don't need protection from the Muslims, the Muslims need protection from us.
Your bad guys and heroes are just comic book nonsense. Reality is far more complex.


Mathew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Mathew 22:37
34 But the Pharisees, hearing that he had silenced the Sadducees, came together. 35 And one of them, a doctor of the law, asked him, tempting him: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

The fact that the Church was recovered to the original message of Christ, non-violence, as a Protestant, I am from those who took on the Crusading, Inquisitional Church, and moved it back to non-violence.

Now lets look around the world today, show me where Christians are on Crusade to convert the world to Christendom?, were are Christians killing hundreds of thousands in suicide bombing that target their own?

Were is there today any compunction to convert to Christendom on the pain of Death or Second Class subservience to Christians?

Now just read the papers, look at the Evening New, surf the web, and day after day, Islam is murdering, it's own, and any others who do not adhere to the Tenet of Islam.

Even being a Moslem doesn't protect you from being targeted by Moslems for murder, rape, torture, sodomy, slavery, and second class status in you rown country.

Now as to:

Mathew 7:3
"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

I have on many occasions pointed out that I have no problem with the prosecution and conviction of those who commit crime, wether in the Military, or anywhere else.


Mathew 22:37
34 But the Pharisees, hearing that he had silenced the Sadducees, came together. 35 And one of them, a doctor of the law, asked him, tempting him: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

And one of them, a doctor of the law, asked him, tempting him: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Are you a Pharisee?

[CheskiChips]

The same backward places where dictators have been established, funded and armed by the US? Those places? Tell me why your government is supporting these dictators.

Because the same leaders with citizens who weren't insane...would be presidents. There's something in Islam that encourages paranoia, and I am sick of their propaganda leaking over their borders. Respect to nations like Georgia. Arab nations should be looking to Israel to discover how to appropriately make a free society, Israel should be looking to America to discover how to make a working democracy. But NOONE should look to the Arab nations for anything but resources, it's all they have to offer the world.

[S.A.M.]

Arab nations should be looking to Israel to discover how to appropriately make a free society, Israel should be looking to America to discover how to make a working democracy.

Israel is smarter than that. Lets hope they wake up before they commit mass suicide.

[mike47]

As I was reading this thread i put myself as a judge and wanted some reality .
There is a barrage of attacks on Islam and Muslims as if this universe has only Islam and Muslims . I noticed the word " terrorism " very well associated with Muslims and Islam too . For facts : The Muslims suffered centuries of colon-ism on the hands of the most brutal Christians and Jews . The Muslim countries and not the Christians and not the Jewish countries that are being made colonies by Christians and Jews such as : Iraq , Afghanistan and Palestine . So who the hell is kidding whom here ?. Let us be adults and see reality as it is . America , NATO , and Israel are the most brutal regimes on earth and their shocking history is a witness on this fact .

[John99]

As I was reading this thread i put myself as a judge and wanted some reality .
There is a barrage of attacks on Islam and Muslims as if this universe has only Islam and Muslims .

That is because the Muslims keep making threads about Islam and Muslims. Personally i could care less about it and dont read any of the links that sneak in. Dont throw the rock and hide your hand.

[nirakar]

That is because the Muslims keep making threads about Islam and Muslims. Personally i could care less about it and dont read any of the links that sneak in. Dont throw the rock and hide your hand.

What I have seen is the anti-Muslims continually making threads about Muslims. The closest thing to a balance for the anti-Muslim threads that I have seen is the anti-Israel threads and the anti-US foreign policy threads.

Is all this anti-Muslim stuff really a warning about Muslim misbehavior or are these anti-Muslim threads examples of Christians and Jews being like the Muslim extremists that they criticize?

I think it is the latter.

[Ghost_007]

Islam as far as I can see, has a problem with the world because it has become a cult tied to the Personalities of the Various leaders who practice this religion.


Wth?!?!?! That simply does not make sense.

'Islam' cannot have a problem with the World. Islam is a religion practiced by a billion people spread over continents, spread over over various different cultures and languages.

Each part of Islam is associated with a different, Caliph,


That doesn't make sense.

Each and every Caliph, (based on the notion of a successor to the Islamic prophet Muhammad's authority.) has placed his own mark on Islam, and in doing so, today there is a fight as to who is the right full Caliph of Islam.


Another ignorant statement. Caliphs have not left their mark on Islam. And today, there is no fight to determine who is the Caliph - that is a lie.

Osama Bin Laden leads a cult of personality under his ideas of advancing the World Caliphate under the Sharia and Quran.

Mullah Omar's established his Idea of Islam based on his own interpertation of the Quran and Sharia.

The Ahyotollia Khomeni, in Iran, change Iran to suit his thought on Islam and its tenets.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian, India, who claimed to be the promised Messiah and Mahdi, the one awaited by followers of all major religions, who bent Islam to his own purpose. After his demise in 1908, his first successor Noor-ud-Din became head of the community and assumed the title of Khalifatul Masih (Caliph of the Messiah). The line of successors continues to this day, the current head being Mirza Masroor Ahmad, residing in London. From the outset the Ahmadiyya community has been viewed as heretical by other Muslim groups due to the founder's claim to prophethood. Muslims hold the view that Muhammad was the final rasul (prophet) and no apostle can come after him. Ahmadis however argue the possibility and need of subordinate prophethood to Muhammad. Ahmadis call themself Muslims and claim to practice Islam in its pristine form

The Ahmadiyya caliphate is not recognised by mainstream Islam, Sunni and Shia.

So what is Islam that so many have made it a cult to their personality?


Since when have these people had any say over the affairs of people out of their country? or their own followers? Leaders will take titles that have no relevance to anyone apart from their own people, or followers as well as someone called Buffalo Roam. Has any Muslim leader declared himself to be leader of a Caliphate? President Musharaf? Prince Abdullah? Ahmadinejad? Ghaddafi?

If any leader of a Muslim nation has, has it actually meant anything? has it caused anything significant to happen?

Have they left their mark on Islam?

Again Buffs, you are pissing into the wind. :rolleyes:

[Fraggle Rocker]

What do you think of the US practice of kidnapping people in foreign countries and sending them to Gitmo? Do you have an opinion on it? I want to get the rational opinion of an atheist.If any atheist will do, I think it's outrageous. I'm enough of a pragmatist and a situational ethicist to understand that in exceptional circumstances people make the best decisions they can and hope that history proves them wise. But if you make a practice of violating the basic rules of human dignity and national sovereignty, then you're an asshole. I was able to forgive my people for electing an asshole the first time but I'm ashamed of them for re-electing him. I'm hoping that I won't get so disgusted with America that I'll have to emigrate for the sake of my conscience. I'm too old for that.

For facts : The Muslims suffered centuries of colon-ism on the hands of the most brutal Christians and JewsHuh??? What kind of "fact" is that? Out of Islam's 1400-year history, Muslims were the colonists for the first 1300 years: the Ottomans, Moors and Mughals. The Christian nations only started building colonial empires 500 years ago, and those empires didn't extend into the stronghold of Islam until the downfall of the Ottoman Empire in the 20th century. That's when the British started carving up Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc.

As for colonialism (I assume you don't mean "colonism" because that would have something to do with your intestine) at the hands of the Jews, I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. There haven't been Jewish colonies since biblical times. The modern state of Israel sprang up on top of Palestine, but we can't blame the Jews for that since the Jewish refugees needed somewhere to go, the Chrisitian Europeans would not take them back, and the Christian British decided to give them Palestine because they didn't think anybody important was living there. The whole Israel-Palestine conflict is the last gift to the world from the "magnificent" fucking British Empire.The Muslim countries and not the Christians and not the Jewish countries that are being made colonies by Christians and Jews such as : Iraq , Afghanistan and Palestine . So who the hell is kidding whom here ?. Let us be adults and see reality as it is . America , NATO , and Israel are the most brutal regimes on earth and their shocking history is a witness on this fact .Your sense of history is amazingly short. I thought it was we Americans who have no sense of the vast scope of history but I see there are other people with the same problem. Please do some reading and learn what the Muslim armies of Caliph Omar did to the ancient civilization of Egypt, how Muslim traders were supplying the slave trade to the New World from the African side, and how in the final days of the Ottoman Empire the Turks indiscriminately slaughtered Christians in their eastern provinces. (Although to be fair the politically correct notion that it was focused on Armenians is incorrect.) Or how current events within the Islamic community are no more civilized and peaceful than they were within the Christian community 600 years ago, with Sunnis and Shiites killing each other, and Arab Muslims, Persian Muslims and African Muslims not exactly acting like brethren.

What I have seen is the anti-Muslims continually making threads about Muslims. The closest thing to a balance for the anti-Muslim threads that I have seen is the anti-Israel threads and the anti-US foreign policy threads. Is all this anti-Muslim stuff really a warning about Muslim misbehavior or are these anti-Muslim threads examples of Christians and Jews being like the Muslim extremists that they criticize? I think it is the latter.I suspect that most of it is coming from Americans. Until thirty years ago we had virtually no knowledge and no opinion of Islam and Muslims. In fact Arabs and Persians were regarded as mysterious, charming strangers. Despite America's generally favorable attitude toward Israel our people didn't even hold much of a grudge against the Muslim countries that warred with Israel several times, since we figured that was just a microcosm of the Cold War and the machinations of Moscow and Washington using the Mideast as their own private chessboard. But that all started to change with the Iranian hostage crisis in 1979. Hearing people call us "the great Satan" and chanting "death to America" didn't give us charitable feelings about the people who had taken over our embassy, violating one of the most fundamental international laws.

Then 9/11 blew it completely. Americans today hate Islam and have no respect for Muslims. Remember that our people have no understanding of geography or history. They don't know that the four largest Muslim countries are Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria and Bangladesh. They don't know that the Iranians aren't Arabs and they don't know that the Arabs make up a small minority of Muslims. They don't know what Sunni and Shia mean.

Of course our current president (oh did I forget to mention that he's an asshole?) is exacerbating this because his family had a personal feud with Saddam Hussein and now he has to make it look like he was right about invading Iraq. The reality is that in the past seven years 3,000 Americans have been killed by terrorists whereas 140,000 Americans have been killed by drunk drivers, and we're fighting the wrong "war."

[Buffalo Roam]

Wth?!?!?! That simply does not make sense.

'Islam' cannot have a problem with the World. Islam is a religion practiced by a billion people spread over continents, spread over over various different cultures and languages.

Really then why all the Jihads in the name of Allah and the Quran?


That doesn't make sense.

You are right it doesn't make sense that Sunni murders Shia, and Shia murders Sunni, and they both murder Bahi.

Another ignorant statement. Caliphs have not left their mark on Islam. And today, there is no fight to determine who is the Caliph - that is a lie.

Now prove so.

Every ruler, Caliph, place his own stamp on Islam, as a human they can do nothing else, it is the Human condition.

Then why do Sunni Murder Shia and Shia Murder Sunni, and they Both Murder Bahi?

Since when have these people had any say over the affairs of people out of their country? or their own followers? Leaders will take titles that have no relevance to anyone apart from their own people, or followers as well as someone called Buffalo Roam. Has any Muslim leader declared himself to be leader of a Caliphate? President Musharaf? Prince Abdullah? Ahmadinejad? Ghaddafi?

Since Jihad.

Al Qaeda thrived in Afghanistan when the Taliban leader, Mohammad Omar, was called "Commander of the Faithful," a caliphic title. In his book published online shortly after Sept. 11, bin Laden's deputy, Ayman Zawahiri, declared that terror attacks would "be nothing more than disturbing acts, regardless of their magnitude" unless they led to a caliphate in the "heart of the Islamic world."

Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organization founded in 1953 with what he calls "a bookish set of beliefs describing its utopian vision for a future caliphate," which will be revived "after national governments are subverted by Hizb ut-Tahrir members working in their highest levels." Vicks notes that Hizb ut-Tahrir members have been charged with planning to carry out coups d'état in Jordan and Egypt. The group also has a following in the West. If membership is up—and an imam in Copenhagen, Fatih Alev, and others say they keep seeing new faces—Hizb ut-Tahrir organizers say it is because more Muslims see events unfolding as the groups predicted.




If any leader of a Muslim nation has, has it actually meant anything? has it caused anything significant to happen?

Have they left their mark on Islam?

Again Buffs, you are pissing into the wind. :rolleyes:

Osama Bin Laden has left his mark, he has caused a significant war.

What would the caliph do? [Against mis-Islamic terror] - Tur...
Some people tend to name this threat as “Islamic terrorism,” but I have a ... stated goals of Bin Ladin and his likeminded is to re-establish the Caliphate, ...

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=... - 48k

Mustafa Akyol

The recent terrorist plots in London and Glasgow have once again shown that violence in the name of Islam continues to be a lethal threat. Some people tend to name this threat as “Islamic terrorism,” but I have a slightly different suggestion: let's call it “mis-Islamic terrorism,” because those who perpetrate it are actually acting against the principles and tradition of mainstream Islam.

One point that is striking in that regard is the yearning that Al Qaeda and other mis-Islamic groups have for the Caliphate, the political leadership of worldwide Islam embodied first in the successors of Prophet Mohammed and most recently in the four-century rule of the Ottoman dynasty. One of the stated goals of Bin Ladin and his likeminded is to re-establish the Caliphate, but if the Caliphs were around, their ways would be quite different.

Enter Sultan Abdülhamid II:

One way to appreciate this is to revisit the 33-year reign of the most remarkable modern caliph, Sultan Abdülhamid II (1876-1909). An ally neither of bigoted Islamists nor of the radical secularists who ultimately deposed him, Abdülhamid was an Islamic modernizer — and, interestingly, a friend of the United States.

[Ghost_007]

Really then why all the Jihads in the name of Allah and the Quran?


What the hell are you talking about?

I'm not going to answer stupid, vague, nonsensical questions, questions that show you have no understanding of Jihad and questions that have nothing to do with this thread.

If someone asked me that question in real life I'd burst out laughing in their face because its so bloody stupid and funny - lol.

You are right it doesn't make sense that Sunni murders Shia, and Shia murders Sunni, and they both murder Bahi.


Not worthy of a response.

Every ruler, Caliph, place his own stamp on Islam, as a human they can do nothing else, it is the Human condition.


What does that mean? place his own stamp on Islam? You say something, provide no real examples and then want me to prove you wrong?...


Osama Bin Laden has left his mark, he has caused a significant war.


Osama Bin Laden is insignificant. I don't believe he has ever stated he is the leader of the Ummah, even if he were to do such a thing he would be rejected, actually rejection would mean he would have to be taken seriously in the first place and that is simply not the case - he would be ignored and his message would fall on deaf ears. How many Muslims have joined Osama Bin Ladens Jihad? Percentage wise?

Significant war? The Yanks already had massive plans for the Mid-East and wider regions - Afghanistan, then Iraq, then Iran, then Pakistan, then Saudi Arabia etc. Not taking into account their meddling before 9/11.

What would the caliph do? [Against mis-Islamic terror] - Tur...
Some people tend to name this threat as “Islamic terrorism,” but I have a ... stated goals of Bin Ladin and his likeminded is to re-establish the Caliphate, ...

www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=... - 48k


If you knew any Muslims or knew anything about Muslim nations you would know Osama Bin Laden is a minor player and holds no real significance to Muslims. He is not a religious figure, a leader or anything like that - and as far as I know he has never made any claims.

Don't expect me to waste another response on you - you don't know what you're talking about and don't know how to carry a debate.