Who really knows ?.

[mike47]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

[KennyJC]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

I'm sure evolution won't lose any sleep over your disbelief.

[PsychoticEpisode]

I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond

Let me guess, something doesn't include God.

[Michael]

I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .Ok then, there always was a Universe and you evolved in it. Done.

Or, how about three Goddesses (or One Goddess or even One God) created the Universe and then their consciousnesses dissipatedly into nothing but random energy flux never to think a thought again and within this universe you evolved.

I'm thinking the first one but meh...

Michael

[scorpius]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .
fyi...evolution is a FACT

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

and Big Bang must have originated from Something,,so something =the Universe in different form/shape maybe always existed.
makes most sense to me.

how did life start? no one really knows,
search for abiogenesis and avoid Cretinist sites,
those just make up lots of krapola!

[mike47]

I'm sure evolution won't lose any sleep over your disbelief.

This is the most ridiculous answer I have ever seen in my entire life .

[mike47]

fyi...evolution is a FACT

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

and Big Bang must have originated from Something,,so something =the Universe in different form/shape maybe always existed.
makes most sense to me.

how did life start? no one really knows,
search for abiogenesis and avoid Cretinist sites,
those just make up lots of krapola!

Evolution is not a fact and it is a mere theory .
Big Bang is a theory too .
Theories are only theories and not scientific facts at all .
The issue is how something starting from nothing can create anything at all .
If you include God then who created this God ?.
if you do not include a God then who created what from start to now ?.

[Enmos]

Evolution is fact whether you believe it or not.

[Orleander]

Evolution is fact whether you believe it or not.

Is the big bang part of evolution?

[Enmos]

Is the big bang part of evolution?

Nope. How did you figure that one ?

[spidergoat]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

You weren't created, you grew.

[Orleander]

so evolution is fact but the big bang is not?

[John99]

Evolution is a fact.

http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=evolution

The level of evolution, in biological usage, is what is debatable.

[Medicine*Woman]

You weren't created, you grew.
*************
M*W: I was going to comment along the same lines. Sperm + egg unite and implant. From then on it's like a spontaneous generation of the conceptus until such time as birth. The genesis of the conceptus is controlled within the conceptus. The host mother is just an incubator for the parasite contained within her.

[Norsefire]

Evolution is a theory. A very probable and logical theory, that has alot of evidence, but it's a theory.

[spidergoat]

What's that supposed to mean?

[Norsefire]

What's that supposed to mean?

It means, it hasn't been proven.

[Mike Honcho]

What's that supposed to mean?

That existing life evolves is fact.
That evolution started all life is theory.

[Enmos]

so evolution is fact but the big bang is not?

What ? If the big bang is not part of evolution that doesn't mean the big bang isn't a fact.

[John99]

Look at what your tagline reads:

We're all monkeys.

Now prove it and it will no longer be a theory. That's all.

I am not saying it is not true or cannot be true but what will you offer as evidence?

[Enmos]

Look at what your tagline reads:



Now prove it and it will no longer be a theory. That's all.

I am not saying it is not true or cannot be true but what will you offer as evidence?

What ? lol
It's a quote from the movie dufus :D

[John99]

You know what i am talking about. WTF is a dufus?

[Mr. Hamtastic]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

meh. You presume too much. Prove you were created and that you did not create yourself.

Why is it IMPOSSIBLE that something started from nothing?

You mention infinity. Consider this. In infinity you have infinite possibility of ANYTHING.

I do not know how life and this world started. I was not there. Were you?

So you are kidding yourself and others because you KNOW you were created. Interesting.

If you would like to suggest this is your FAITH or that your BELIEF is any of this, that would be another matter entirely.:)

[Enmos]

You know what i am talking about. WTF is a dufus?

No, I don't. It's just a quote from a movie. Biologically it's incorrect.

Dufus: an incompetent and stupid, though well-meaning, person
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dufus

Hold yer horses though, it was meant in a playful manner ;)

[mike47]

meh. You presume too much. Prove you were created and that you did not create yourself.

Why is it IMPOSSIBLE that something started from nothing?

You mention infinity. Consider this. In infinity you have infinite possibility of ANYTHING.

I do not know how life and this world started. I was not there. Were you?

So you are kidding yourself and others because you KNOW you were created. Interesting.

If you would like to suggest this is your FAITH or that your BELIEF is any of this, that would be another matter entirely.:)

Your reply is just a bunch of farting far away from any known philosophical approach to seek the truth in a very complex universe . Is that all you can think of ?. Hahaha.

[Norsefire]

Actually, if there are infinite universes, God is real. Everything that can exist, does exist, and everything can exist, so everything exists.

[scorpius]

Evolution is not a fact and it is a mere theory .
did you even read this link??

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html


Big Bang is a theory too .
maybe but
Im sure that millions of scientists cosmologists,astrophisicists etc have some pretty damn good evidence for BB,
if you want to "believe" a giant magic turtle farted everything into existence,be my guest.:D

Theories are only theories and not scientific facts at all .
until they are PROVEN to be FACTS,

The issue is how something starting from nothing can create anything at all .
where did you get this something from nothing silliness?

Ive never heard anyone besides bible junkys claim such nonsense.

If you include God then who created this God ?.
people ,
thats why bible god is described as having basicaly human characteristics,
evil jealous and so on,
the ancient people obviously had no clue about what the Sun and stars are so they invented some magical god who made it all,and since humans rule over all they made god human and with supernatural powers too..my guess anyway
now we know way more then that,so we dont have to believe in gods

if you do not include a God then who created what from start to now ?.
like I said the Universe must have always existed in some form or shape it just changed with BB,...
IF it suddenly popped out of nothing then the question is:which god made it

www.godchecker.com

[mike47]

Both Big Bang and evolution are mere theories and nothing is proven by anyone that they are a fact . Of course I did not create myself by myself and I was created : this is from observation and logic . It is not possible according to physics , chemistry , math and science that something starting from nothing at all ( zero ) can create anything at all : from science and logic attached to it .

[spidergoat]

What you say "mere" theory, you don't know what you're talking about.

You are also incorrect that physics cannot explain something coming from "nothing". According to physics, there is no such thing as a field where nothing happens, quantum particles can come into and pop out of existence in our timeframe. The universe is balanced between energy/matter and gravitational potential energy (negative energy). This is exactly how the universe should look if it came from nothing.

Evolution was never intended to explain abiogenesis, or the origins of life. That's why Darwin called his book, "On the Origin of Species".

[mike47]

Energy ,quantum particles and gravitational energy are all THINGS and not nothing at all ( zero ). Of course both the Big Bang and evolution are mere theories with no proven scientific data or logic to back them up as 100% true .

[John99]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .

I think that evolution is possible and i also think some form of 'seeding' is possible. The problem with creation is who created the creator?

Creationists will say that the universe had to have a beginning so there must be a creator. The rationale behind this is that everything has a beginning BUT what about a creator?

[mike47]

If we go back to what I call zero time , then it is impossible to find an answer according to reason , common sense and logic : who created whom from time zero forward and backward !.

[John99]

Zero time? and before zero time was what? You know even if someone wants to believe in a creator wouldn't there have had to have been some kind of evolutionary process to create the creator?

How can something have existed forever?

[mike47]

That is exactly what I am trying to say : even if we assume there was a zero time then the question remains : what was before zero time ?. There are no reasonable answers to that in my opinion .

[spidergoat]

Energy ,quantum particles and gravitational energy are all THINGS and not nothing at all ( zero ). Of course both the Big Bang and evolution are mere theories with no proven scientific data or logic to back them up as 100% true .

You don't know what you're talking about. Both have been supported by the data and logic. Whenever I hear someone say a scientific theory isn't "proven", I know they are scientifically illiterate (nothing personal).

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html)

[mike47]

I know what I am talking about . If only you do not repeat again and again.....that I do not know what I am talking about.......hahaha. Where is your scientific proof ?. I can not see it........Oops......I can not hear it too .

[SetiAlpha6]

I think that evolution is possible and i also think some form of 'seeding' is possible. The problem with creation is who created the creator?

Creationists will say that the universe had to have a beginning so there must be a creator. The rationale behind this is that everything has a beginning BUT what about a creator?


Not trying to argue with you, but is it not at least conceivable that God, if He (It) is a non-physical spirit, might be or could be eternal while the physical energy/matter universe that He (It) may have created is not?

I do not regard this as provable in the least, only not impossible.

As far as I can tell, the physical universe, so far, appears to not be eternal. So, to me, that might suggest that something else exists somewhere that really is eternal and is capable of creating it.

Can anyone prove that this is not at least possible?

Thanks! :)

[spidergoat]

I know what I am talking about . If only you do not repeat again and again.....that I do not know what I am talking about.......hahaha. Where is your scientific proof ?. I can not see it........Oops......I can not hear it too .

What do you mean by proof? I think you mean evidence. Religious ideas don't even have that.

Lay people often misinterpret the language used by scientists. And for that reason, they sometimes draw the wrong conclusions as to what the scientific terms mean.

Three such terms that are often used interchangeably are "scientific law," "hypothesis," and "theory."

In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a mere guess, or is unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.


...Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.


http://www.wilstar.com/theories.htm

[SetiAlpha6]

What do you mean by proof? I think you mean evidence. Religious ideas don't even have that.

Lay people often misinterpret the language used by scientists. And for that reason, they sometimes draw the wrong conclusions as to what the scientific terms mean.

Three such terms that are often used interchangeably are "scientific law," "hypothesis," and "theory."

In layman’s terms, if something is said to be “just a theory,” it usually means that it is a mere guess, or is unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.


...Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.


http://www.wilstar.com/theories.htm


So why do some scientific theories, as described above, change or even find themselves overturned over time?

Surely this has happened once or twice?

Thanks!

[spidergoat]

Because we learn new things. Even Newtonian physics still has applications, even though it was superceded by newer theories. It's not wrong, just incomplete.

[SetiAlpha6]

Because we learn new things. Even Newtonian physics still has applications, even though it was superceded by newer theories. It's not wrong, just incomplete.


Don't we also have "scientists" that disagree with each other over whether or not one theory or another is true and actually proved? Seems like that happens all the time on this forum anyway.

Thanks

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

I really know the god of the Holy Babble cannot exist because it's too contradictory.
I really know that if an omnipotent god exists & wants me to know, it's not up to me to find out.
I really know I couldn't be happy for eternity if others are suffering.
I really know making or letting someone suffer for eternity is as sicko sadistic as can be.
I really know the Holy Babble is the worst moral authority I can imagine.
I really know that if we require a cause for the universe, we must require a cause for that also.
I really know requiring worship is very immature.

[SetiAlpha6]

I really know that if we require a cause for the universe, we must require a cause for that also.

I agree with everything you said, those are wise words, except for this one.

The question for me is why? Why can't some eternal non-physical (possibly other dimensional) thing or being cause some other non-eternal physical thing to exist in this dimension? Can you prove that such a hypothesis is false? If so how?

Thank You!

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

I agree with everything you said, those are wise words, except for this one.

The question for me is why? Why can't some eternal non-physical (possibly other dimensional) thing or being cause some other non-eternal physical thing to exist in this dimension? Can you prove that such a hypothesis is false? If so how?

Thank You!

It's not reasonable to pick & choose which you apply what to. What's good for 1 is good for the other. If you say the universe must have come from something then you must say that something must have come from something else or it all comes to naught.
Maybe our universe is part of a much bigger 1. Maybe our universe leaked from a parallel universe. Or other possibilities. I wish I could know. If I could then I'd be wishing I could know how that other came to be.
I heard someone say maybe life on Earth was created by advanced aliens but then the aliens had to be created by something. Then a god came into it & they said nothing created this god. Regardless of whether it's possible, if the question is required at 1 level, there's as much reason to apply it at each & every level.
Maybe our universe was created by a being who'd seem as a god to us but is just another normal being in the world it lives in, which was created by an even more powerful being living in a world created by an even more powerful being ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Maybe our universe always existed.

[SetiAlpha6]

It's not reasonable to pick & choose which you apply what to. What's good for 1 is good for the other. If you say the universe must have come from something then you must say that something must have come from something else or it all comes to naught.
Maybe our universe is part of a much bigger 1. Maybe our universe leaked from a parallel universe. Or other possibilities. I wish I could know. If I could then I'd be wishing I could know how that other came to be.
I heard someone say maybe life on Earth was created by advanced aliens but then the aliens had to be created by something. Then a god came into it & they said nothing created this god. Regardless of whether it's possible, if the question is required at 1 level, there's as much reason to apply it at each & every level.
Maybe our universe was created by a being who'd seem as a god to us but is just another normal being in the world it lives in, which was created by an even more powerful being living in a world created by an even more powerful being ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
Maybe our universe always existed.


I guess I just think that no one really knows, and if no one really knows, then no one should act as if they actually do know, especially to the point of telling everyone else that disagree with them that they are totally wrong and messed up. Religion and Science can both be guilty of this, in my opinion.

As far as I can determine in my own little ideas, existence all would have to go back somewhere to something that is eternal, that must be a basis for everything else. Current science basically teaches us, in one way or another, that the universe is both eternal and non-eternal. It would seem that there would have to be something somewhere that is eternal and uncreated. But our own energy/matter universe does not appear to be it.

And by the way, why should we think that the laws that govern non-eternal things like I am saying this universe is, should, or must, or even can, apply to something that really is eternal?

Can you show me how I am wrong here? I would be in your debt.

Thank You!

[cosmictraveler]

Science only can try to understand where we came from and how we got here. They have developed ways, through scientific experiments which provide facts that they then hypothesize and postulate about everything from the Big Bang to the Evolution of Man. All of the facts suggest to them that evolution does happen and a theory about it was developed and written about which today is accepted by millions as a scientific theory that can stand up against scientific evaluation and hold true to its findings. Same thing with the Big Bang, in essence, for science has done the same theorizing about that as well and it to is accepted as science theory. If you want to believe them , that's up to you to make up your mind. But if you don't then you should tell us all what your ideas are to how everything started and how humans arrived here. :)

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

I guess I just think that no one really knows, and if no one really knows, then no one should act as if they actually do know, especially to the point of telling everyone else that disagree with them that they are totally wrong and messed up. Religion and Science can both be guilty of this, in my opinion.

As far as I can determine in my own little ideas, existence all would have to go back somewhere to something that is eternal, that must be a basis for everything else. Current science basically teaches us, in one way or another, that the universe is both eternal and non-eternal. It would seem that there would have to be something somewhere that is eternal and uncreated. But our own energy/matter universe does not appear to be it.

And by the way, why should we think that the laws that govern non-eternal things like I am saying this universe is, should, or must, or even can, apply to something that really is eternal?

Can you show me how I am wrong here? I would be in your debt.

Thank You!

No 1 should act or talk as if they know something they don't know. If everyone followed that, science would be better & religion wouldn't exist.
You're essentially asking again the same question I answered.
Everything is eternal. Nothing can be actually created. When we speak of creating, we mean changing something into another form. If the big bang is correct, the universe existed before that then changed. Every thing came from some thing(s). If the big bang is not correct, this still applies.
It is logicly obvious something cannot come from nothing. Otherwise things would happen at any time, any number of times, for no reason at all.

[superluminal]

1) Evolution by natural selection has been observed in the laboratory, both micro-evolution and macro-evolution. It is a 100% proven fact.

2) The Big Bang theory says nothing about whether spacetime existed before the current(?) expansion. It says that at one point in time (T = 0 if you wish) the universe was in a hot, dense state and that for some reason (on one knows) it expanded and continues to expand. All observations show this to be the general case. It is a virtual 100% proven certainty.

This Mike47 character seems like a bit of a dipshit.

[John99]

1) Evolution by natural selection has been observed in the laboratory, both micro-evolution and macro-evolution. It is a 100% proven fact.



I believe that adding - by natural selection - lowers the level of proof. Is this intentional?

[Norsefire]

Superluminal, the big bang theory does have a good amount of evidence and observation behind it, but I wouldn't call it as solid as the evidence behind evolution, and in the end we can't test it or reproduce it.

I do "believe" (if you will) in the big bang, however I'm more interested in what caused the big bang.

[superluminal]

I believe that adding - by natural selection - lowers the level of proof. Is this intentional?
No. Evolution by itself is just a word that means things change with time. No one disputes this. Your knowledge evolves over time. Your tastes evolve. The binary states within a microprocessor evolve. Chemical reactions evolve.

Evolution by Natural Selection is the real name for the process that everyone is so interested in. That all life evolved from precursor forms that were different than they currently appear. That we didn't all just pop onto the scene, complete and ready to rock, 6000 years ago.

[John99]

suppose i say i can make the word superluminal evolve into a new word then i come up with luminalsuper.

[superluminal]

suppose i say i can make the word superluminal evolve into a new word then i come up with luminalsuper.

Suppose you do? What then?

[John99]

No. Evolution by itself is just a word that means things change with time. No one disputes this. Your knowledge evolves over time. Your tastes evolve. The binary states within a microprocessor evolve. Chemical reactions evolve.

Evolution by Natural Selection is the real name for the process that everyone is so interested in. That all life evolved from precursor forms that were different than they currently appear. That we didn't all just pop onto the scene, complete and ready to rock, 6000 years ago.

the problem is evolution by natural selection and the examples you will give do not mean that much. do you really believe it shows the proof needed?

is it that much different than a piece of ice melting into a pool of water?

[superluminal]

the problem is evolution by natural selection and the examples you will give do not mean that much.
Well, you've already decided that anything I can show- like the fact that bacteria evolve, by natural selection, to form new antibiotic resistant strains - is meaningless. Or that e-coli bacteria have evolved to form a new subspecies that metabolizes a formerly untapped source of food:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/life/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

I picture you as an ostritch with it's head in the sand, certain that if he can't see the lion then the lion can't see him...

[Aiden12345]

well i think we are the aliens experiment.. becuase who built the pyramids???? they are still researching that today as we speak... well i think it was the aliens that built them becuase our technology then was was far off from building huge prymids... i believe thats where the whole show begin . also i think they gave us math matics aswell, becuase we just cant come up with it ourself. when people say if were their experiment why dont we look exactly like them, well becuase they probly cant survive on earth with the conditions so they might of modified the alien and cross it with the monkey or something then created human. THen that human was taught the math matics, and how to survive and how to produce. so then as that human makes his family the information gets past down.

[superluminal]

well i think we are the aliens experiment.. becuase who built the pyramids???? they are still researching that today as we speak... well i think it was the aliens that built them becuase our technology then was was far off from building huge prymids... i believe thats where the whole show begin . also i think they gave us math matics aswell, becuase we just cant come up with it ourself. when people say if were their experiment why dont we look exactly like them, well becuase they probly cant survive on earth with the conditions so they might of modified the alien and cross it with the monkey or something then created human. THen that human was taught the math matics, and how to survive and how to produce. so then as that human makes his family the information gets past down.
No, no, and... no.

You should leave now before the carnage begins. Save yourself!

[Aiden12345]

well i think we are the aliens experiment.. becuase who built the pyramids???? they are still researching that today as we speak... well i think it was the aliens that built them becuase our technology then was was far off from building huge prymids... i believe thats where the whole show begin . also i think they gave us math matics aswell, becuase we just cant come up with it ourself. when people say if were their experiment why dont we look exactly like them, well becuase they probly cant survive on earth with the conditions so they might of modified the alien and cross it with the monkey or something then created human. THen that human was taught the math matics, and how to survive and how to produce. so then as that human makes his family the information gets past down.

[superluminal]

Again?

[Aiden12345]

carnage?

[superluminal]

carnage?
Yes. As in, you being ripped to shreds for such inane babble that we've all heard millions of times. Unless that's why you're here. To provoke us into a killing rampage?

[Aiden12345]

what do you think goes in in area 51?

[superluminal]

what do you think goes in in area 51?
Anal sex with alien hookers?

[Aiden12345]

why you think its a joke

[superluminal]

Please stop posting in this thread. Take it to pseudoscience if you wish to continue.

[Aiden12345]

sorry my bad

[Aiden12345]

1 more question how do you think you can get a job with some ufo investigation business

[John99]

The problem is how would the aliens get here?

[superluminal]

The problem is how would the aliens get here?
Trolls hungry. Grrrmmmmnnn... must feed trolls.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

The entire evolution theory is not a fact, don't get it twisted. evolution at small levels of mutation and change are facts.

The entire evolution theory which goes into depths about ancient common ancestors right down to single celled life/organisms is not a fact.

Speaking also about the big bang theory, I do not agree with the big bang theory I think it is illogical and it is too flawed for me to take any more interest in it. It rests upon 3 pillars of 'evidence' each one weaker than the last.


Something cannot come from nothing, The big bang cannot deal with questions prior to its starting point which means I cannot determine a cause for the effect making it impossible to learn anymore from.


peace.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Why is it IMPOSSIBLE that something started from nothing?

.

Because of cause and effect, you can't haave complete notingness and then just like magic with no cause/reason/influence atall just have a universe or anyting for that matter. ofourse anything is possible on some level but we can't just say "it might be possible" and run with it or we can just run with any stupid idea that goes against every law our universe is governed by.

We have to take into account laws of the universe, like dimention, energy, gravity etc etc. we know cause and effect is apparent within every action within the universe so we should run with that idea. Even on a quantum level where we talk about random 'blips' in and out of existence. they are still functioning on a cause and effect basis we might not know the cause or where the cause even comes from but they are being influenced by some force or law.



peace.

[superluminal]

The entire evolution theory is not a fact, don't get it twisted. evolution at small levels of mutation and change are facts.

The entire evolution theory which goes into depths about ancient common ancestors right down to single celled life/organisms is not a fact.

Speaking also about the big bang theory, I do not agree with the big bang theory I think it is illogical and it is too flawed for me to take any more interest in it. It rests upon 3 pillars of 'evidence' each one weaker than the last.


Something cannot come from nothing, The big bang cannot deal with questions prior to its starting point which means I cannot determine a cause for the effect making it impossible to learn anymore from.


peace.
I feel for your loss. Pax.

[mike47]

so evolution is fact but the big bang is not?
Go ahead and prove it then . I will be a polite listener for sure . Both Big Bang and Evolution are theories with absolutely no scientific truth to them . Prove me wrong .

[Red Devil]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

Why? Simply because you do not understand physics, it isn't true?

http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/C/catastrophe/index.html

There was a programme on UK tv recently - it explains perfectly well how life began. It involved an earth wide ice age, every bit of land and sea was covered. It seemed impossible that life could exist but it did, in the subterranean waters. This spectacular five-part series, presented by Tony Robinson, investigates the history of natural disasters, from the planet's beginnings to the present, putting a new perspective on our existence – that we are the product of catastrophe. Using the latest CGI effects and featuring scientific experts, the series reveals how the evolution of life on Earth has been shaped by lethal catastrophes that have caused mass extinctions, almost to the point of wiping out life altogether.

Single-celled life forms dominated the planet for more than 2 billion years, but everything changed 650 million years ago. Catastrophe struck. Earth froze from pole to pole and threatened to wipe out life entirely. 25 million years later, the ice melted. In its wake, the first multicellular animals arose. Far from extinction, the catastrophe simply seemed to raise the evolutionary stakes. If it wasn't for snowball Earth we may not be here today.

Snowball Earth was entombed in sheets of ice that were miles deep. Incredibly though, life somehow survived this global freeze for 15 million years. The exploration of Alaska, where life has developed strategies to survive in extreme cold and without light, reveals strategies that scientists believe may have helped life survive the rigours of snowball earth.

In the Australian outback, there are clues to another part of the story - life didn't just survive snowball Earth, it flourished. Stamped in the rugged rocks there is one of the multicellular organisms that evolved after snowball Earth. All of the animals on the planet, including us, are descended from creatures like this. It is almost impossible to imagine how life could have survived and developed in this epic ice age, but it did. And snowball Earth could be crucial to understanding the evolution of mankind itself.

250 million years ago, Earth was teaming with life of all shapes and sizes. The plains of the Karoo basin in South Africa, now arid scrub, were once lush and home to a rich and stable community of species. Diictodon was a small burrowing vegetarian. Cow-sized dicynodonts lived in herds on the flood plains. Both were prey to gorganopsian, the top predator, which somewhat resembled the fearful T rex that would follow much later. This was the Permian Age, but it vanished virtually overnight. 95% of all life went extinct in another of Earth's massive catastrophes.

[mike47]

There is no evidence that the TV program has any truth in it . If you follow physics, chemistry , math , and engineering , you will see that something starting from Zero or NOTHING can not possibly create anything at all . So going back to the start of life is a a good guide to the biggest mysteries of life . Those scientists who pretend to know , in fact they are only guessing .

[Red Devil]

I trust a guess from a knowledgeable scientist than an opinion in a public forum - no offence.

[swarm]

I trust a guess from a knowledgeable scientist than an opinion in a public forum - no offence.

I'd recommend checking out the "origins" series by PBS with Neil deGrasse Tyson as the narrrator.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/

[disease]

Both Big Bang and Evolution are theories with absolutely no scientific truth to them . Prove me wrong .What's your definition of 'scientific truth', have you got one? How do you know that BB and Darwinism don't have any, whatever you think it is?

How about those TV programs? Is the theory of electromagnetism (being all scientific and everything) a theory with any of your 'scientific truth' in it?
Do you know how electricity works, or TVs? You know they do work though, that should be obvious, even if you don't understand what makes them tick.

So how come electricity works? How come the scientific theory of EM is 'truth', but the two above theories, are not? How do you know this?

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

Actually, if there are infinite universes, God is real. Everything that can exist, does exist, and everything can exist, so everything exists.

If Everything that can exist, does exist & if there are infinite universes, the god thing still comes down to whether it does indeed exist & whether it created everything.
Your 2 IFs do not lead to god(s) existing or not existing.
The god described in the KJV cannot exist any more than a square triangle.
1111

[swivel]

I agree with everything you said, those are wise words, except for this one.

The question for me is why? Why can't some eternal non-physical (possibly other dimensional) thing or being cause some other non-eternal physical thing to exist in this dimension? Can you prove that such a hypothesis is false? If so how?

Thank You!

That being would have had to pop into being from nothingness. If you try to make the being eternal you create a paradox which can not be resolved.

An eternal being can not progress through an infinite number of discrete states before they carry out the act of creation. That is a fulfilled infinite set, which not even imaginary characters can create (much as the paradox that an omnipotent god could not build a wall so indestructible that he would not be able to tear it down).

[swivel]

There is no evidence that the TV program has any truth in it . If you follow physics, chemistry , math , and engineering , you will see that something starting from Zero or NOTHING can not possibly create anything at all . So going back to the start of life is a a good guide to the biggest mysteries of life . Those scientists who pretend to know , in fact they are only guessing .

Nothingness has its own power as a vacuum in a world of somethingness. The something always wants to rush into the nothing.

This can be seen as a product of the jittering particles which make up the something, but it can also be viewed as the vacuum storing up potential energy, much like a weight at a great height.

Since we live in a universe that now contains "something", it is impossible to know what laws exist in a state of complete "nothing". Your claims about first causality do not apply before there was anything. It could very well be, without violating any known laws, that the absence of "something" is an extremely powerful, unstable state. The result of this state is an onrush of "everything".

If so, this resolves all known creation paradoxes. Since the state of nothing does not have time, the creation of everything occurred at some discrete point, and has been winding down ever since.

Gods do NOT avoid this paradox, and therefore can not be the answer. I am eager for other ideas, so if you come up with any please share them with me.

[Red Devil]

I was reading a book by David Eddings in which a "goddess" was explaining to someone the reason for her existence.

She said that she thought herself into existence as she existed prior to that only as a thought.

[Changeling]

"Theories are only theories and not scientific facts at all."

Do the religious accept any scientific theories?

[Enmos]

God knows everything.. I say he hides it well. And himself too.. :D

[scorpius]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .

maybe everything always existed

Give me your thoughts .
YOU CANT HANDLE MY THOUGHTS!

[Medicine*Woman]

I was reading a book by David Eddings in which a "goddess" was explaining to someone the reason for her existence.

She said that she thought herself into existence as she existed prior to that only as a thought.
*************
M*W: I've been doing this same thing for some years now, more specifically to become a billionaire, but it hasn't worked out yet. The goddess part happened to me a long time ago, so now I'm just waiting for the money.

[PsychoticEpisode]

MW, you are the Forum Goddess in my book. Remember, you can always think you're a billionaire...... Believers have exercised this type of thought process for centuries.

[Ayla-Z]

Being caught in your personal sense of self and identifying with your personal history is limiting your ability to KNOW. The Universe is INFINITE in many ways.. open your self to the possibilty that everything you want to know, you want to know it because it is KNOWABLE.. and become the being who is capable of knowing.. and that is not your little personal self.. temple-of-one

[Medicine*Woman]

MW, you are the Forum Goddess in my book. Remember, you can always think you're a billionaire...... Believers have exercised this type of thought process for centuries.
*************
M*W: Why thank you, my precious!

[SetiAlpha6]

That being would have had to pop into being from nothingness.

No, I don't think so... It would be eternal so it would have no beginning point, right? And it would have no need to "pop into being" because it simply always was.

If you try to make the being eternal you create a paradox which can not be resolved.

And if you make the universe eternal you have the very same paradox, right? This apparent paradox would have to exist no matter what object you apply it to. So the "paradox" must only be apparent and not actual, since we actually do exist. If not, why not?

Something has to be either eternal or be able to "pop into being from nothingness".

You seem to be saying that both are impossible. And yet we exist.

Which one do you choose then?

[Red Devil]

The only way the Universe can be "eternal" is for the Big Bang to be recurring. I do not believe in "eternal", nothing can be eternal. Eg: Big bang was the start.

[davewhite04]

You'd be surprised.

[SetiAlpha6]

The only way the Universe can be "eternal" is for the Big Bang to be recurring. I do not believe in "eternal", nothing can be eternal. Eg: Big bang was the start.

I do not see any answers in what you said.

The universe seems to be accelerating as it expands. It does not appear to be slowing down so that it might eventually stop and then come back together so it can expand again. It looks like it will just keep on expanding, possibly forever, suffering an eventual total-heat-death in the process.

Scientific observation at its most basic level teaches us that this universe is not eternal. But I am no scientist. So perhaps someone else might be able to correct me. I would love to here a good explanation for how the universe can escape rudimentary physics. I really doubt there is one.

If nothing can be eternal then something must have the ability to just pop into being from absolute nothingness. Why is that idea any easier to believe in than the idea that an eternal something might actually exist?

By the way, what started the Big Bang?

Thanks

[swarm]

By the way, what started the Big Bang?

I did.

[SetiAlpha6]

I did.
Right... ;)

[mike47]

When you exist there is no proof on how you came to exist to start ....!. Religion..?. Huh....it is just another human crap created by man to control man .

[Enmos]

I did.

I do.

[scifes]

When you exist there is no proof on how you came to exist to start ....!. Religion..?. Huh....it is just another human crap created by man to control man .

why'd you post this thread in religion subforum then?

[mike47]

I'm sure evolution won't lose any sleep over your disbelief.
I am 100% sure people like you can NOT hold a debate based on logic, reason and objectivity . Also , I am certain that Big bang and evolution theories are just mere theories with no scientific teeth attached to them .

[Enmos]

I am 100% sure people like you can NOT hold a debate based on logic, reason and objectivity . Also , I am certain that Big bang and evolution theories are just mere theories with no scientific teeth attached to them .

Good for you.

[Cellar_Door]

There is no evidence that the TV program has any truth in it . If you follow physics, chemistry , math , and engineering , you will see that something starting from Zero or NOTHING can not possibly create anything at all .

In the beginning there was God.

[MZ3Boy84]

I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .
I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .
I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .
There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .
How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

F***ing theists and their linear line of thought. First of all, you can't grasp the concept of evolution, and the universe if you think in the lines of a beginning and an end. Time is a man-made concept. There is no beginning, there is no end. There is just expansion, contraction, and energy/matter shifts and transfers.

There are my thoughts.

[mike47]

F***ing theists and their linear line of thought. First of all, you can't grasp the concept of evolution, and the universe if you think in the lines of a beginning and an end. Time is a man-made concept. There is no beginning, there is no end. There is just expansion, contraction, and energy/matter shifts and transfers.

There are my thoughts.
Wow....is this some sort of an explosion or expulsion or both...?!.

[MZ3Boy84]

Both

[MZ3Boy84]

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood today. :)

[mike47]

In the beginning there was God.

Please prove it .

[MZ3Boy84]

In the beginning there was no beginning....... I like that better. :)

[MZ3Boy84]

BTW This is an interesting site... http://godisimaginary.com/index.htm

[quantum_wave]

Who really knows?!

Reading through the thread I am finding that I am in agreement with most of the thinking that is conveyed. The disagreements are over what the past contains and what the future will tell. I can see how this thread has survived so long because these issues are some of the imponderables of life.

But anyone who invokes dogma is wasting their time when it comes to discussions of religion in a science forum. Religious dogma takes so many different forms that to pick one as your own makes you in the minority right away. My favorite approach is to say the there may or may not be a God, but in science everything that is recurring must be free of the hand of God, and everything that has happened must be explained without invoking the supernatural. Otherwise it is not science.

Taking that approach I go with the idea that the universe has always existed. If I say there may or may not be a God, that means I am saying that if there is a God then that God is the universe itself. But That is religious dogma; is that Pantheism? So it is not scientific.

Anyway, if the universe has not always existed, who is willing to say where the universe came from? I have seen in this thread the “something from nothing” concept several times. Isn’t that concept voiced by those who can’t grasp something having always existed, but who also want to avoid invoking the supernatural into science? If so they are left with “something from nothing”. Who believes that?

But if you don't believe that something has always existed or that something can come from nothing aren't you faced with a dilemma. That is why the subject is an "imponderable" IMHO.

[mike47]

How can you have something that always existed ???!. I am mostly interested in point zero or as you it " something starting from nothing at all ". This dilemma proves at least two things : 1 : religions are man made without any merit at all . 2 : Life and this universe are too complex to be fully understood by humans .

[quantum_wave]

This dilemma proves at least two things : 1 : religions are man made without any merit at all . 2 : Life and this universe are too complex to be fully understood by humans .I would agree with that except when you say without any merit you are saying that there is no God. That may or may not be.
How can you have something that always existed ???!.
How can you have something come from nothing? You and many others will rack your brains to find a way for something to come from nothing before you will take what I think is the easy course; the universe, or at least the energy that the universe is composed of has always existed. That just fits nicely with my view that energy cannot be created or destroyed.
I am mostly interested in point zero or as you it " something starting from nothing at all ".Do you mind telling me what have you got so far on that topic?

[OriginalBiggles]

Originally Posted by mike47
[1] I was created and I am sure I did not create myself by myself .

[2] I do not believe in both the evolution theory and the big bang theory .

[3] I see it as impossible from something starting from nothing to create anything at all , let alone all this universe and beyond .

[4] There are as much or were as much as minus infinity to plus infinity the number of things in all the universe and beyond .

[5] How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .

[6]Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .

Give me your thoughts .

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to oblige.
[1] That you were created is an assertion implying several scenarios. [a] Special creation by a deity or some other supernatural agency [b] Creation by the process of evolution. The fact that you stipulate [2] is immaterial.
You may assert and believe as you wish and to paraphrase Voltaire, "I will defend to the death your right to do so." If you deny and defy rationality, logic and reason as expressed by science that is your choice.

[2] That you believe in neither the theory of evolution nor the the theory of the Big Bang is a denial in the presence of overwhelming evidence for both. Once again, that is your choice. But your choice has no bearing on the degree of probability of both theories being correct.

[3] If you see it as impossible that something could come from nothing then you are pretty closely in agreement with science on this. Newton's second law of thermodynamics provides that everything is composed of either energy or matter and that neither can be destroyed, only converted from one to the other. This gives rise to the law of the conservation of energy which you can avail yourself of via Google. If you can conceive of an eternal deity then you'll have no problem conceiving of eternal matter/energy. If you want to call this GOD that is your right but calling it anything but matter/energy is quite unnecessary and violates the Principal of Parsimony known as Ockham's Razor.

[4] This is a statement of opinion in a way. Minus infinity and plus infinity are rather abstruse values not particularly relevant to your POV in this. But if the subject interests you, then you might check out Georg Cantor's work on infinity via Google

[5] If you would genuinely be interested in how life began I could suggest a Google of ABIOGENESIS. It is a very active field of scientific research. Science does have a clue but as yet has not solved the problem. Science is solving problems every day and historical precedent dictates that this one too will succumb to scientific research. That it hasn't yet is no certain indication that it never will.
Religions pontificate on the origins of life with a poverty of real authority and certainly against reason. But you are correct, religion really hasn't a clue.

[6] There are pretenders everywhere.........aren't you engaged in "pretending to know" yourself by stating opinion as fact? KNOWING something presupposes a dedication to reason, logic and rationality, and even then one can only KNOW something by how complete is the latest wisdom as revealed by science. New discoveries must be accommodated by current wisdom and may even change its complexion entirely. It may be that knowledge can never be complete, and certain philosophers of science claim that this is so.

It is obvious you have a long way to go in your search and much to learn. Religious faith is only vulnerable to science through ignorance in the individual believer. Accepting science's values beside that of faith strengthens one as an individual and accords respect for the observation of Martin Luther King jr. that........."Nothing in the world is more dangerous that sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
A genuine appreciation of learning in science is not a path to perdition. That devout christian Galileo Galilei observed in a letter to a friend during his confinement; "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same god who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
And Thomas Jefferson, 3rd President of the USA, expressed exactly the same sentiment when he wrote; "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."............though he was a little more eloquently verbose in his method of expression.

Good Luck

OriginalBiggles

[StrangerInAStrangeLa]

In the beginning there was God.



The beginning of what?


How can you have something that always existed ???!.


Life and this universe are too complex to be fully understood by humans.
Are you human?

[mike47]

@OriginalBiggles : Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to discuss all my points .

[mike47]

The beginning of what?
Life and this universe are too complex to be fully understood by humans.
Are you human?
A : The beginning of everything such as god or gods and humans for example .
B : Yes I am human and you can see that too . :D .

[Jan Ardena]

mike,

How did life and this world start ?. Who first created whom ?.
Science and religions have no clue .
Anyone who pretends to know is just kidding one's self and othres .
Give me your thoughts .

I think your conclusion are too harsh.
Both science and religion have clues, and combined are the best/only way
to answer these questions.
Unfortunately for mankind, these two diciplines are at loggerheads, and have
become corrupted IMHO.

jan.

[mike47]

mike,



I think your conclusion are too harsh.
Both science and religion have clues, and combined are the best/only way
to answer these questions.
Unfortunately for mankind, these two disciplines are at loggerheads, and have
become corrupted IMHO.

jan.
Too harsh ?.
I think religions have NO clues at all .
As far as science it is still digging in the right direction and in vain too....:D .