Rehabilitating Mars

[draqon]

The recent probe to Mars, Mars Phoenix has found the soil to be alkaline....but sustainable for earth plants! So we can grow stuff on Mars...except there is high radiation there...and even though temperatures do come to 20C sometimes...the regular temperature is around -50C. So we need to build domes which would keep the temperature at 20C as needed.

But the radiation is a problem...so to rehabilitate Mars we need:

a) cockroaches (can do well in radiation environment)

http://tintedglasses.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/cockroach-3.jpg

b) black fungus (feeds on radiation)

http://www.foxnews.com/images/287023/0_61_070529_fungus_radiation.jpg

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276196,00.html

[Norsefire]

Without these "domes", I mean, having only the natural planet, is there any common life form on Earth that can survive?

If we put cockroaches on Mars, they'd die. Even if they can withstand radiation, they can't survive at those temperatures.

[Roman]

We can put stuff on mars that would survive, but would be so dormant as to be dead.

[Enmos]

Humans would be pretty dead as well.

[OilIsMastery]

Terraforming a cold CO2 atmosphere with extremophiles should be easy.

http://images.spaceref.com/news/2002/06.18.02.radio.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans


Deinococcus radiodurans is an extremophilic bacterium, one of the most radioresistant organisms known. It can survive cold, dehydration, vacuum, and acid, and is therefore known as a polyextremophile and has been listed as "the world's toughest bacterium" in The Guinness Book Of World Records

Cyanidium caldarium likes CO2 also.

http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/Bio/cyanidium-caldarium.jpg

Tapping the 300 trillion barrels of abiotic hydrocarbons on Titan and bringing them back to Earth is the real challenge.

[cosmictraveler]

So now humans are going to try and alter another planet, haven't humans screwed up the Earth enough?? Why can't humans get Earth right first before they screw up another planet???:shrug:

[Enmos]

So now humans are going to try and alter another planet, haven't humans screwed up the Earth enough?? Why can';t humans get Earth right first before they screw up another planet???:shrug:

Because they are humans.

[Norsefire]

Terraforming is not practical, anyway.

[OilIsMastery]

Terraforming is not practical, anyway.
Why? Seems practical to me.

[draqon]

terraforming is practical...but it should not be the first priority. Terraforming should be done on a side of a dome colonization of Mars.

[OilIsMastery]

Because they are humans.
What the hell are you? Australopithecus afarensis?

[draqon]

What the hell are you? Australopithecus afarensis?

he is just against human in generals. But lets stay on topic please...terraforming Mars is one of my priorities.

[Norsefire]

No, it's not practical. It'd take thousands of years, not to mention a constant need to replace lost resources that it'd lose to space since it doesn't have a sufficient enough gravity to hold an atmosphere necessary for Humans or to block enough heat necessary for Humans.

[draqon]

No, it's not practical. It'd take thousands of years, not to mention a constant need to replace lost resources that it'd lose to space since it doesn't have a sufficient enough gravity to hold an atmosphere necessary for Humans or to block enough heat necessary for Humans.

there are other ways to hold the atmosphere...besides gravity.

at this time their use is hypothetical but in future these ways to hold atmosphere can be employed.

[OilIsMastery]

No, it's not practical. It'd take thousands of years, not to mention a constant need to replace lost resources that it'd lose to space since it doesn't have a sufficient enough gravity to hold an atmosphere necessary for Humans or to block enough heat necessary for Humans.
How do you know that? Have you ever seen an atmosphere form? What do you think would happen to all the O2? It would just disappear or it would just defy gravity and fly out into outer space? I'm guessing it would take less than 2000 years.

[Norsefire]

Mars doesn't have enough gravity to hold onto an atmosphere that we'd need. Even if you add it, you'd need to keep adding it or else it will lose the atmosphere.

[OilIsMastery]

Mars doesn't have enough gravity to hold onto an atmosphere that we'd need. Even if you add it, you'd need to keep adding it or else it will lose the atmosphere.
That is exactly what happens during photosynthesis. O2 is perpetually added to the atmosphere. Mars has enough gravity for a CO2 atmosphere so what makes you think it doesn't have enough gravity for an O2 atmosphere?

[draqon]

That is exactly what happens during photosynthesis. O2 is perpetually added to the atmosphere. Mars has enough gravity for a CO2 atmosphere so what makes you think it doesn't have enough gravity for an O2 atmosphere?

exactly...Titan is even smaller then Mars, yet it has atmosphere much denser then Earth. :p

[D H]

The recent probe to Mars, Mars Phoenix has found the soil to be alkaline
Wrong. Alkalinity does not mean alkaline. From http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2008-121, emphasis mine:

"The alkalinity of the soil at this location is definitely striking. At this specific location, one-inch into the surface layer, the soil is very basic, with a pH of between eight and nine. We also found a variety of components of salts that we haven't had time to analyze and identify yet, but that include magnesium, sodium, potassium and chloride."


so to rehabilitate Mars we need: ...
You are assuming that we should "rehabilitate" Mars. There are many arguments not to, cost being a big one. An even bigger one argument: Why? For what reason?

Even if we do overcome those two whoppers, there is a potential showstopper: Martian life. If does harbor life, our terraforming will kill that life. That will stop any ideas of terraforming Mars.



Mars doesn't have enough gravity to hold onto an atmosphere that we'd need. Even if you add it, you'd need to keep adding it or else it will lose the atmosphere.
That is exactly what happens during photosynthesis. O2 is perpetually added to the atmosphere. Mars has enough gravity for a CO2 atmosphere so what makes you think it doesn't have enough gravity for an O2 atmosphere?
Mars doesn't have oceans. Where shall the Martian O2 come from?

Suppose we could take all the carbon out of its atmosphere, leaving just the O2. You would still die. Mars atmosphere is very, very tenuous.


exactly...Titan is even smaller then Mars, yet it has atmosphere much denser then Earth. :p
Non sequitur. Titan's distance from the Sun makes Titan cold and makes it the subject of a drastically weakened solar wind. A low temperature means the atmosphere has less energy. The solar wind, which robbed Mars of its atmosphere, doesn't have the energy to strip Titan of its atmosphere.

[OilIsMastery]

there is a potential showstopper: Martian life.
What evidence is there of Martian life?


If does harbor life, our terraforming will kill that life. That will stop any ideas of terraforming Mars.
You mean like how native species have always stopped invading species in the past? LOL.


Mars doesn't have oceans. Where shall the Martian O2 come from?
The O2 shall come from the photosynthesis of CO2.


Suppose we could take all the carbon out of its atmosphere, leaving just the O2. You would still die.
From what?

[draqon]

melt the icecaps

[D H]

there is a potential showstopper: Martian lifeWhat evidence is there of Martian life?
You do know the meaning of "potential", don't you?



Mars doesn't have oceans. Where shall the Martian O2 come from?
The O2 shall come from the photosynthesis of CO2.
Photosynthesis requires equal quantities of water and CO2. Mars doesn't have oceans, and it doesn't have much CO2 either.



Suppose we could take all the carbon out of its atmosphere, leaving just the O2. You would still die.From what?
You would die from oxygen starvation, of course. The highest atmospheric pressure on Mars is about 1% of sea level pressure. Even at 100% O2, that low a pressure is far too low to sustain life. Only a handful of people are able to climb Mt. Everest without supplemental oxygen. The pressure at the top of Mt. Everest is 30 times that the pressure at the bottom of Mars' Hellas Planitia.

[eburacum45]

Mars would hang on to an Earth-like atmosphere for several million years,actually, according to Martyn Fogg; back in the Noachian period, Mars probably had a respectable atmosphere for quite a long time.

But on the timescale of the age of the solar system, that counts as a rapid loss. We could terraform Mars temporarily, but not permanently.

[draqon]

Mars would hang on to an Earth-like atmosphere for several million years,actually, according to Martyn Fogg; back in the Noachian period, Mars probably had a respectable atmosphere for quite a long time.

But on the timescale of the age of the solar system, that counts as a rapid loss. We could terraform Mars temporarily, but not permanently.

yea well terraforming would take couple thousand years...not more..so its worth it. It will be done on a side while we living in our own capsule homes and domes.

[Enmos]

What the hell are you? Australopithecus afarensis?

No, I'm Homo sapiens sapiens.. and ashamed of it at times.

[D H]

yea well terraforming would take couple thousand years...not more..so its worth it. It will be done on a side while we living in our own capsule homes and domes.
You will not live two thousand years. If history is any guide, our civilization will not live two thousand years. So I ask again, why?

[cosmictraveler]

Mars would hang on to an Earth-like atmosphere for several million years,actually, according to Martyn Fogg; back in the Noachian period, Mars probably had a respectable atmosphere for quite a long time.

How can anyone tell that without actual geological studies done? It would seem to me that this is only conjecture on anyones part without all of the facts known.

[OilIsMastery]

Mars doesn't have oceans, and it doesn't have much CO2 either.
Mars doesn't have much CO2? Are you joking? 95% of the Martian atmosphere is CO2.

[draqon]

D H... Mars has 95% carbon dioxide gas, 1% nitrogen, 1% argon, 1% oxygen...and other trace gases...

Mars caps are made of lots of frozen ice water and frozen dry ice (CO2)...the South pole of Mars is mostly frozen dry ice but North Pole is made mostly of water ice.

Mars has seasons were water ice and dry ice travels by sublimation from one pole to the other through seasons...making poles rise and lower.

Mars surface is rich with oxides of metals like magnesium, aluminum, and silicon....


Mars is ready for full scale civilization and we need to rehabilitate it, well at least those who are interested in it. Now D H...you are not an advocate of Mars colonization I see...well than so be it...I am trying to see followers who would want Mars terraformed just as I would want it.

[cosmictraveler]

I am trying to see followers who would want Mars terraformed just as I would want it.

Tell us hop you are going to prevent all of the RADIATION from hitting everything that is there? :shrug:

[draqon]

Tell us how you are going to prevent all of the RADIATION from hitting everything that is there? :shrug:

there are many ways

1) by terraforming mars atmosphere...to make it have more clouds and less radiation through

2) by have everything by shielding it with metal or with plastic (plastic has very good ability to repel radiation)

3) By utilizing black fungus in layers of houses to absorb radiation

4) By living underneath ground or in ice...

5) By utilizing new technologies to have combat radiation effect on health...such as nanomachines within the body that every astronaut will have that will constantly repair any damaged cells.

[cosmictraveler]

But the things that you'd need to tereform Mars like trees and green vegitation would die froim all of the RADIATION that is hitting Mars now. So planting anything on the surface will only mean that it will die very quickly.:(

[draqon]

But the things that you'd need to tereform Mars like tress and green vegitation would die froim all of the RADIATION that is hitting Mars now. So planting anything on the surface will only mean that it will die very quickly.:(

no cosmic...noone is planning to do it right from the start...the plan is this:

1) astronaut arrive on Mars
2) They build and assemble domes
3) domes are were plants are grown with good temp and pressure...
4) factory for dome production and necessary astronaut equipment is assembled...uses resources of Mars like silicon and aluminum and magnesium to produce electronics and metal parts and make glass (from silicon)...for domes
5) energy cells are utilized by gathering either solar power or using nuclear reactor (I am more for a nuclear reactor)
6) while all this expansion is going on...the ice-caps are melted...some water escapes and adds on to atmosphere of Mars...first slowly...but than surely more and more...


7) the radiation on Mars greately varies by altitude above Martian sea level...so building bases in asteroid impact sites and canyons is a MUST or building it in ice or underground is also a choice.

8) all this activity on Mars would mean humans and their machines will release waste gases to martian atmosphere...which would create some greenhouse effect...at some point the dry ice within ice-caps will melt and become all gas...(since dry ice melts at very low temperatures) thus increasing atmosphere greenhouse effect.

9) At this stage is were the terraforming will start by converting that carbon dioxide to oxygen by photosynthesis using plants or new technology...

[draqon]

Robert Zubrin has outlined many aspect of Martian colonization and terraforming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Zubrin

[cosmictraveler]

They already tried the domes and they don't work.

Biosphere 2 is a 3.14-acre (1.27 ha)[1] structure originally built to be an artificial closed ecological system in Oracle, Arizona (USA) by Space Biosphere Ventures, a company whose principal officers were John Polk Allen and Margret Augustine. Constructed between 1987 and 1991, it was used to explore the complex web of interactions within life systems. It also explored the possible use of closed biospheres in space colonization, and allowed the study and manipulation of a biosphere without harming Earth's. The name comes from the idea that it is modeled on the first biosphere, which is the life system on Earth. The funding for the project came primarily from Edward Bass's company, Decisions Investment, and cost $200 million from 1985 to 2007.

MORE>....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere_2

[draqon]

Bioshphere 1 and 2 were immaturely done projects that lack the scientific knowledge of NASA and Roskosmos...say. That said, I believe Biosphere 2 project was partly a success...just because gas escaped does not mean it is not possible to always keep it inside. Their issue was engineering...they should have had compartment within biosphere to isolate leakage of gas to outside.

[draqon]

anyways in addition to that...I really, really, really hate the people involved with Biosphere project, they are brutes because of their lack of scientific knowledge and engineering thinking...the whole Martian colonization just got a setback. I really hate them.

[cosmictraveler]

So if it is that difficult to engineer here on Earth, think about how many more complex problems there are going to be on Mars! :eek:

[draqon]

So if it is that difficult to engineer here on Earth, think about how many more complex problems there are going to be on Mars! :eek:

yea well...Mars is my goal...and problems as complex as they are can be solved.

ISS is a success...its floating well...so was MIR a success.

[D H]

Mars doesn't have much CO2? Are you joking? 95% of the Martian atmosphere is CO2.


D H... Mars has 95% carbon dioxide gas, 1% nitrogen, 1% argon, 1% oxygen...and other trace gases...

95% of "not very much" is not very much. The average surface pressure on Mars is less than 1% of sea level pressure on Earth. If you want a breathable atmosphere on Mars, you will not get it by photosynthesis. Mars does not have enough CO2 or enough H2O.


dont worry about money...monarchy can be set up to accomplish a goal.
Draqon, you are verging on venturing into woo-woo land here. You might want to rethink what you have said, and in the process, rethink this entire silliness of terraforming Mars now.