God is absent in nature

[KennyJC]

People go on about god as if he is this kind and caring guy, and that all the bad things of this world are somehow related to mans own greed and evil doing (god allows this to happen so that we can have free will apparently).

What kind of a creator creates life with the divisions of predator and prey?

You have the get-out clause of arabs sawing off the heads of infidels as being the evil created by man, and man alone, but then you have Cubs being picked off by prey and perhaps given an equally unpleasant death. We call this 'nature', but how does a theist justify it? Or if the mother gets injuired and dies whilst trying to fetch food for her young, and the young are left there to starve or be eaten.

And why 'pain'? Isn't there any other design that would equally make us want to avoid harm without it being a torturous experience? Can you imagine what it feels like to be burned alive? What if your kids died in a house fire... would you be more upset that they died, or that they had a couple of minutes of agonizing pain that you can not even imagine?

If you believe a creator is your fantasy behind this whole debacle, then why do you hold "him" with such high esteem?

[tim840]

And why 'pain'? Isn't there any other design that would equally make us want to avoid harm without it being a torturous experience? Can you imagine what it feels like to be burned alive? What if your kids died in a house fire... would you be more upset that they died, or that they had a couple of minutes of agonizing pain that you can not even imagine?

Pain, both physical and emotional, is an important part of learning. I heard a story about a girl who was born without an ability to feel pain, and she constantly inflicted horrible things on herself not knowing that they had a poor effect on her health. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=1386322 Here's the story, I just found it.

[spidergoat]

So, God invented parasites that live by laying an egg in their host and eating them out from inside? Nice guy, that God. No room for learning there.

[alexb123]

Some JW's knocked on my door the other day telling me how love in the world was so out of place that we should be amazed and see it as proof of God. Well, if it is so amazing that there is love in the world, that is not a world made by a loving God.

[Cellar_Door]

True.

As my mother always used to say: the true opposite of love is not hate, but indifference.

God is loving.
Nature is indifferent.

Right, now I'm just plain confused.

[OilIsMastery]

God is the cause of nature. We observe the effects of God on a daily basis.

[KennyJC]

Pain, both physical and emotional, is an important part of learning. I heard a story about a girl who was born without an ability to feel pain, and she constantly inflicted horrible things on herself not knowing that they had a poor effect on her health. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=1386322 Here's the story, I just found it.

You missed my point. I understand the importance of pain, but my point was that since 'god' is all powerful, he could make a new design for life to avoid harm without it being such a torturous experience when they do experience harm.

God is the cause of nature. We observe the effects of God on a daily basis.

And if it is true that god created nature, then god is a prick. Like video game creators of violent games, except the characters in this game feel pain.

[OilIsMastery]

You missed my point. I understand the importance of pain, but my point was that since 'god' is all powerful, he could make a new design for life to avoid harm without it being such a torturous experience when they do experience harm.



And if it is true that god created nature, then god is a prick. Like video game creators of violent games, except the characters in this game feel pain.
No such thing as pleasure without pain. And if you hate nature so much you can always quit.

[KennyJC]

No such thing as pleasure without pain.
So according to you, a world must exist where nature is cruel so that we can also experience pleasure?

Stop making excuses for this fantasy figure of yours please.

And if you hate nature so much you can always quit.

I just accept nature for what it is. But if you believe in god, it should be a problem of why nature is the way it is.

[Prince_James]

Nietzsche oddly presents a rather compelling argument for there not being much pain in the natural world:

...it should be clearly understood that in the days when people were unashamed of their cruelty life was a great deal more enjoyable than it is now in the heyday of pessimism.... -- the bog of morbid finickiness and moralistic drivel which has alienated man from his natural instincts... Nowadays, when suffering is invariably quoted as the chief argument against existence, it might be well to recall the days when matters were judged from the opposite point of view; when people would not have missed for anything the pleasure of inflicting suffering, in which they saw a powerful agent, the principal inducement to living. By way of comfort to the milksops, I would also venture the suggestion that in those days pain did not hurt as much as it does today; at all events, such is the opinion of a doctor who has treated Negroes for complicated internal inflammations which would have driven the most stoical Europeans to distraction -- the assumption here being that the negro represents an earlier phase of human development (... For my part, I am convinced that, compared with one night's pain endured by a hysterical bluestocking, all the suffering of all the animals that have been used to date for scientific experiments is as nothing.) - On the Genealogy of Morals

[scorpius]

Pain, both physical and emotional, is an important part of learning. I heard a story about a girl who was born without an ability to feel pain, and she constantly inflicted horrible things on herself not knowing that they had a poor effect on her health. http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=1386322 Here's the story, I just found it.
perhaps what OP is aiming at is;
UNECCESARY pain and suffering,such as MENTAL suffering,which for example a kid experiences when his pet rabbit gets torn to bits and eaten by a dog,

a Loving god could have simply created all animals herbivores to avoid such and other suffering wouldnt you think??

[codanblad]

So, God invented parasites that live by laying an egg in their host and eating them out from inside? Nice guy, that God. No room for learning there.

dude aliens was just a movie

[codanblad]

perhaps what OP is aiming at is;
UNECCESARY pain and suffering,such as MENTAL suffering,which for example a kid experiences when his pet rabbit gets torn to bits and eaten by a dog,

a Loving god could have simply created all animals herbivores to avoid such and other suffering wouldnt you think??

i was reading something by some italian poet, i can't remember who, but he said god created all the horrible things in the world to keep men focussed on why they're lucky. he said in the golden age without strife, men weren't grateful for what they were receiving, they took everything granted. they ended up fighting amongst each other. with floods, disease etc., men were fighting for their lives, being relieved when bad things stopped and not having time for petty concerns. your life is worth a lot more when its in danger, you don't know how long you have.

it was put much more convincingly and eloquently by the poet, i think it was giacomo leopardi.

[Prince_James]

Codanblad:

dude aliens was just a movie

There are wasps which do that to spiders, cockroaches, and other creatures.

[OilIsMastery]

So according to you, a world must exist where nature is cruel so that we can also experience pleasure?

Stop making excuses for this fantasy figure of yours please.
Please explain how pleasure is possible without it's antithesis. Thanks in advance.

I just accept nature for what it is.
Clearly you don't. From what I've read above I understand you hate nature because you are thin skinned don't like discomfort.

But if you believe in god, it should be a problem of why nature is the way it is.
I can assure you nature and it's cause are no problem for me.

[siledre]

the universe is self sustaining without the intervention of a god, if you look at the universe, not just earth, everything survives by destroying something else.

[OilIsMastery]

http://www.hawking.org.uk/lectures/lindex.html

All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology.
Since the universe had a beginning, it wouldn't exist without God. God is the First Cause.

[Norsefire]

If I were a god and created a whole system and universe, I'd probably include the unpleasant things as much as the pleasant.

[Prince_James]

OilIsMastery:

Since the universe had a beginning, it wouldn't exist without God. God is the First Cause.

This does not follow, for the cause of the universe needn't be God. As we debated in another thread.

[lightgigantic]

People go on about god as if he is this kind and caring guy, and that all the bad things of this world are somehow related to mans own greed and evil doing (god allows this to happen so that we can have free will apparently).

What kind of a creator creates life with the divisions of predator and prey?
perhaps one that also creates eternal designations beyond issues of hunter and the hunted

You have the get-out clause of arabs sawing off the heads of infidels as being the evil created by man, and man alone, but then you have Cubs being picked off by prey and perhaps given an equally unpleasant death. We call this 'nature', but how does a theist justify it? Or if the mother gets injuired and dies whilst trying to fetch food for her young, and the young are left there to starve or be eaten.
quite simply, our experience of happiness and distress in this world is simply an issue of the body and issues of the body are due to karma, performed both in this life and previous lives.
Issues of the soul are completely different

And why 'pain'? Isn't there any other design that would equally make us want to avoid harm without it being a torturous experience?
its called intelligence

Can you imagine what it feels like to be burned alive? What if your kids died in a house fire... would you be more upset that they died, or that they had a couple of minutes of agonizing pain that you can not even imagine?
can you imagine repeatedly taking birth from a mothers womb and repeatedly having to go through the issues of growing up, getting an education, fending for one's self, repeatedly getting involved in raising some sort of family and repeatedly get immensely attached to the whole transient scene in an absolute medium of birth, death, old age and disease and repeatedly cultivating the same stupid idea that this world is ultimately meant for one's enjoyment, which means that one repeatedly comes back to try the whole thing out again?

If you believe a creator is your fantasy behind this whole debacle, then why do you hold "him" with such high esteem?
quite simply because he is the shelter of ultimate benefit
trying to conceive of something else as ultimate shelter (like the wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster) and playing god off as some sort of labourer that one personally engages to facillitate these things is not only doomed for failure but also childlike

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

can you imagine repeatedly taking birth from a mothers womb and repeatedly having to go through the issues of growing up, getting an education, fending for one's self, repeatedly getting involved in raising some sort of family and repeatedly get immensely attached to the whole transient scene in an absolute medium of birth, death, old age and disease and repeatedly cultivating the same stupid idea that this world is ultimately meant for one's enjoyment, which means that one repeatedly comes back to try the whole thing out again?

This seems like something I'd enjoy, really. Quite a preferrable cirucmstance.

By the way: Did you get my PM I sent you last week, re: Neo-Platonism?

[lightgigantic]

LightGigantic:



This seems like something I'd enjoy, really. Quite a preferrable cirucmstance.
its kind of like if the only thing one has to eat is cold pizza, one will think that is pretty good..... until one gets hot pizza

By the way: Did you get my PM I sent you last week, re: Neo-Platonism?
yes
thanks

While I have heard it referenced before (by a fellow "practitioner" with a PhD in philosophy) I haven't really investigated it too deeply - I'm a bit snowed under at the moment
:o

[codanblad]

Codanblad:



There are wasps which do that to spiders, cockroaches, and other creatures.

i know, i was only kidding.

[codanblad]

all forms of beauty are just comparisons, maybe that's why we need the bad stuff.

[KennyJC]

Please explain how pleasure is possible without it's antithesis. Thanks in advance.

I'm not proposing a universe without any kind of suffering (although I wonder why that would have been so hard for a caring god), there would still be death, unfilfilled desires etc... but when it comes to cute little kiddies burning/being eaten alive, you have to stop and say "God: enough is enough, you utter prick".

Clearly you don't. From what I've read above I understand you hate nature because you are thin skinned don't like discomfort.

Seems a bit hypocrital to me. Theists are the ones constantly praying to this imaginary god to relieve them of their suffering which is in essence, his fault.

And I am not talking about dentist trips here. I am talking about the excessive suffering cute little kiddies feel whilst being burned alive in an accidental fire. It seems a little bit excessive from a socalled caring and attentive god.

I simply accept nature for it's brutalness because it was not a creation. If there was a god however, I would seriously question his motives. An intelligent agent who creates predator and prey resembles blood thirsty humans creating violent video games. Maybe 'god' is in mans image afterall?

I can assure you nature and it's cause are no problem for me.

Even if your kids were burned alive tomorrow?

Since the universe had a beginning, it wouldn't exist without God. God is the First Cause.

Blah, blah. What crap!

If the first cause is an immense and complicated vast intellegence, then that is completely illogical and very much non-occams razor.

To summarize: Nature is blind, brutal and indifferent because there is no god.

[KennyJC]

perhaps one that also creates eternal designations beyond issues of hunter and the hunted

Oh, right... "God", "heaven" and "eternal life". So far 3 things that don't exist which you have brought up so far.

I won't even ask why you think we are here to suffer before enternal life.

quite simply, our experience of happiness and distress in this world is simply an issue of the body and issues of the body are due to karma, performed both in this life and previous lives.
Issues of the soul are completely different

"Karma", "Reincarnation", and "The Soul", that's 6 things so far that don't exist.

its called intelligence

Intelligence is often irrelevant to avoiding excessive pain.


can you imagine repeatedly taking birth from a mothers womb and repeatedly having to go through the issues of growing up, getting an education, fending for one's self, repeatedly getting involved in raising some sort of family and repeatedly get immensely attached to the whole transient scene in an absolute medium of birth, death, old age and disease and repeatedly cultivating the same stupid idea that this world is ultimately meant for one's enjoyment, which means that one repeatedly comes back to try the whole thing out again?

The flaw in your consistencey is that you point out this world is not meant for our enjoyment, but then you create a fantasy of god and heaven which is meant for your enjoyment.


quite simply because he is the shelter of ultimate benefit
trying to conceive of something else as ultimate shelter (like the wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster) and playing god off as some sort of labourer that one personally engages to facillitate these things is not only doomed for failure but also childlike

That just goes to my last point of this world being so horrible you choose to get the comfort of knowing there will be better to come after this ordeal is over. That is childlike - this world is all we will ever have before the ordeal is over.

[Nasor]

Nietzsche oddly presents a rather compelling argument for there not being much pain in the natural world...
Yeah, but you get the impression that Nietzsche would have thought it better to live as a Viking raider or something just because life was interesting and passionate, even though most of the time you'll be wet and cold and it probably won't be long before some jackass shoots an arrow into you or chops off your arms. If you don't agree with him on that, a lot of his conclusions aren't likely to apply to you.

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

its kind of like if the only thing one has to eat is cold pizza, one will think that is pretty good..... until one gets hot pizza

Perhaps, perhaps.


“ By the way: Did you get my PM I sent you last week, re: Neo-Platonism? ”

yes
thanks

While I have heard it referenced before (by a fellow "practitioner" with a PhD in philosophy) I haven't really investigated it too deeply - I'm a bit snowed under at the moment


That sounds fine. Take your time. But if you ever come upon it, check it out. I think you'd appreciate it.

[rjr6]

The flaw in your consistencey is that you point out this world is not meant for our enjoyment, but then you create a fantasy of god and heaven which is meant for your enjoyment.




That just goes to my last point of this world being so horrible you choose to get the comfort of knowing there will be better to come after this ordeal is over. That is childlike - this world is all we will ever have before the ordeal is over.

This world is not meant to be endured. Keeping your chin up is not the message.

[lightgigantic]

Lightgigantic:



Perhaps, perhaps.

actually the closest thing to hell in vaisnava tradition is the notion of ceasing to exist. So your glorification of individual existence is not to be thoroughly condemned



That sounds fine. Take your time. But if you ever come upon it, check it out. I think you'd appreciate it.
ok its on my 2do list
:)

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

actually the closest thing to hell in vaisnava tradition is the notion of ceasing to exist. So your glorification of individual existence is not to be thoroughly condemned

So we're halfway in agreement? Coolsville!

[Carcano]

The ancient Hebrews got around this problem...a loving God as creator of a painful world...by constructing 'the fall of man' within their mythos.

Yahweh first creates a world which is perfect, an Eden without suffering and want, but man (and women) screw it up with their disobedience.

Thus, they are cast from the garden into a world where man must sow and reap by the sweat of his brow, and woman must bring forth children in sorrow.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

In the bible god actualy isnt that nice of a guy, remembe what he did to Job, slaughtered his whole family and burned his settlement to the ground just to prove a point to satan. He was actualy very judgemental, has control freak issues, is an ego-maniac who loves to be worshipped and above all will spank your ass if you step out of line, ontop of that if you dont obey his rules he will torture your soul not for weeks, months or even years but for ever and ever and ever in the pits of hell, which I imagine look like inner east london.

He is a badass who will smack your face and he admits it too.

peace.

[lightgigantic]

Kenny
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
perhaps one that also creates eternal designations beyond issues of hunter and the hunted
”
Oh, right... "God", "heaven" and "eternal life". So far 3 things that don't exist which you have brought up so far.
it's kind of strange the way how you flip between "there's no evidence for that" when issues of logic arise and "that's not rational" for issues of evidence
:shrug:


I won't even ask why you think we are here to suffer before enternal life.
just as well because I can't understand that question
(“before eternal life” - ???)

“
quite simply, our experience of happiness and distress in this world is simply an issue of the body and issues of the body are due to karma, performed both in this life and previous lives.
Issues of the soul are completely different
”
"Karma", "Reincarnation", and "The Soul", that's 6 things so far that don't exist.
ditto to the intro ....

“
its called intelligence
”
Intelligence is often irrelevant to avoiding excessive pain.
it's integral however to avoiding wanton pain


“
can you imagine repeatedly taking birth from a mothers womb and repeatedly having to go through the issues of growing up, getting an education, fending for one's self, repeatedly getting involved in raising some sort of family and repeatedly get immensely attached to the whole transient scene in an absolute medium of birth, death, old age and disease and repeatedly cultivating the same stupid idea that this world is ultimately meant for one's enjoyment, which means that one repeatedly comes back to try the whole thing out again?
”
The flaw in your consistencey is that you point out this world is not meant for our enjoyment, but then you create a fantasy of god and heaven which is meant for your enjoyment.
well actually no I don't
Thats a point vaisnava philosophy is quite specific on

SB 1.2.6 The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self.

CC mad 24.29 Causeless devotional service is unmotivated by sense enjoyment, perfection or liberation.

etc etc


“
quite simply because he is the shelter of ultimate benefit
trying to conceive of something else as ultimate shelter (like the wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster) and playing god off as some sort of labourer that one personally engages to facillitate these things is not only doomed for failure but also childlike
”
That just goes to my last point of this world being so horrible you choose to get the comfort of knowing there will be better to come after this ordeal is over.
given the nature of material existence, it's not clear why one would have to wait before things become horrible

That is childlike - this world is all we will ever have before the ordeal is over.
then I guess you have no alternative but to find shelter in wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster
good luck
:o

[KennyJC]

Kenny
it's kind of strange the way how you flip between "there's no evidence for that" when issues of logic arise and "that's not rational" for issues of evidence
:shrug:

It's what I do when someone pulls something from their ass... 'karma', 'soul', etc.

just as well because I can't understand that question
(“before eternal life” - ???)

Ah yes, because only our body dies, and not our personalities.

it's integral however to avoiding wanton pain

That's not good enough. People die under excessive pain and suffering they could have done nothing to prevent.

SB 1.2.6 The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self.

CC mad 24.29 Causeless devotional service is unmotivated by sense enjoyment, perfection or liberation.

etc etc

So the eternal bliss or the 72 virgins or whatever has nothing to do with it? Come on, the only reason why religion is so popular worldwide is precisely because it is fanciful.

then I guess you have no alternative but to find shelter in wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster
good luck
:o

What's wrong with that? I put it to you that I get all the kicks a religious nut gets, but without the tomfoolery of religious delusion.

[ggazoo]

What kind of a creator creates life with the divisions of predator and prey?



People, we believe, ought not to suffer, be excluded, die of hunger or oppression. But the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends on death, destruction, and violence of the strong against the weak - these things are all perfectly natural. On what basis, then, do you judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair, and unjust?

[KennyJC]

People, we believe, ought not to suffer, be excluded, die of hunger or oppression. But the evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends on death, destruction, and violence of the strong against the weak - these things are all perfectly natural.

Exactly. Thus on that basis I believe there is no god.

On what basis, then, do you judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair, and unjust?

Since I have no belief in an intelligent creator, then it would be silly to have a bone to pick with nature. It is what it is.

But you believe in an intelligent creator, so I just wonder why you don't have a problem with god who centers life around 'big fish eats the little fish'. In spite of the cruelty of the way your god made this world, you expect him to turn over a leaf and reunite you with your daddy in an eternal bliss. Thats kind of like expecting Hitler to suspend the extermination of the Jews and give away free bunnies to make up for the trouble caused.

[Carcano]

"it should be clearly understood that in the days when people were unashamed of their cruelty life was a great deal more enjoyable than it is now in the heyday of pessimism." -Nietzsche
Ancient literature doesnt uphold this statement...that life was more enjoyable, or that cruelty held less shame.

And Friedrich of all people should know better.

This is a good example of why Nietzsche is regarded by some as a teacher of evil.

[ggazoo]

Exactly. Thus on that basis I believe there is no god.



Just because you can't think of a reason for pain and suffering doesn't mean there can't be one. Many atheists will falsely accuse Christians of having "blind faith"... but your assumption is blind faith of the highest order.

With time and perspective most of us can see good reasons for at least some of the tragedy and pain that occurs in life. Why couldn't it be possible that, from God's vantage point, there are good reasons for all of them?

Your objection to God is based on a sense of fair play and justice. You don't have a good basis for being outraged at injustice, which is the reason that you're objecting to God in the first place. If you are sure that this natural world is unjust and filled with evil, you are assuming the reality of some supernatural standard by which you make your judgment.

[KennyJC]

Just because you can't think of a reason for pain and suffering doesn't mean there can't be one. Many atheists will falsely accuse Christians of having "blind faith"...

There's no question about it. Particularly with your brand of organised religion which is based around child-like myths.

but your assumption is blind faith of the highest order.

It's not even in the same ball park. If you do not believe in god, then that is not faith. The reason being is that god effectively does not exist just like the tooth fairy.

With time and perspective most of us can see good reasons for at least some of the tragedy and pain that occurs in life. Why couldn't it be possible that, from God's vantage point, there are good reasons for all of them?

You can try to see good reasons in it, but flip the coin and it can seem senseless.

So god created life to feel intense suffering so that we would then want to avoid harm, but then we can not escape harm as our bodies grow older or we find ourselves in an unfortunate accident. When you see a news report on a house fire where several young children were burned alive, I don't care what gods good reason for that suffering which a dictionary can not measure is, but there probably isn't one. The suffering of the individual appears irrelevant.

The truth is that pain is a crude but effective way to ensure we pass on our genes. Godless, blind, uncaring.

Your objection to God is based on a sense of fair play and justice. You don't have a good basis for being outraged at injustice, which is the reason that you're objecting to God in the first place. If you are sure that this natural world is unjust and filled with evil, you are assuming the reality of some supernatural standard by which you make your judgment.

My judgment is that a creator who creates an environment full of sentient beings who are destined to be eaten alive in a painful, desperate and depressing end, is not a caring creator.

[lightgigantic]

Kenny
“
Originally Posted by lightgigantic
Kenny
it's kind of strange the way how you flip between "there's no evidence for that" when issues of logic arise and "that's not rational" for issues of evidence

”
It's what I do when someone pulls something from their ass... 'karma', 'soul', etc.
Your statement doesn't smell like roses either btw ...


“
just as well because I can't understand that question
(“before eternal life” - ???)
”
Ah yes, because only our body dies, and not our personalities.
something like that

“
it's integral however to avoiding wanton pain
”
That's not good enough. People die under excessive pain and suffering they could have done nothing to prevent.
hence there is recourse to a type of intelligence that puts an end material life and its inherent shortcomings

“
SB 1.2.6 The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self.

CC mad 24.29 Causeless devotional service is unmotivated by sense enjoyment, perfection or liberation.

etc etc
”
So the eternal bliss or the 72 virgins or whatever has nothing to do with it?
obviously not

Come on, the only reason why religion is so popular worldwide is precisely because it is fanciful.
I would agree that religious masses do have a tendency to water down teachings with predictable results

“
then I guess you have no alternative but to find shelter in wealth, adoration, distinction or vitality that this body can muster
good luck

”
What's wrong with that? I put it to you that I get all the kicks a religious nut gets, but without the tomfoolery of religious delusion.
everything will be tested at the time of death
:o

[Vkothii]

God cannot be absent from Nature, although we can't, and we won't find God with our science or logic, we assign Nature some "existence", or we personalise the environment - even scientists do, though they try hard - so the question sort of revolves around itself.