View Full Version : The Ego of the Atheist
pharaohmoan
06-19-08, 06:24 AM
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
Quite simply they are seeking to inflate their ego thereby making themselves the centre of their universe which inadvertantly is a blasphemous stance by default. By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.
Of course the atheist will never admit that they are egotistical and will most probably hide behind the 'prove to me there is a God' statement. Instead of seeking spirituality they want proof handed to them on a plate. Instead of investing in faith they choose to invest in themselves, ask them about Jesus Christ and they will fob you off with comments like he was a con man or that he plainly didn't exist, some even saying he was just some poor deluded man.
Personally for all you believers out there I don't think think it's worth arguing with atheists about God because you will just hit the same brick wall with them and continue to inflate their ego. It's simple to see they will not progress very far in the afterlife and IMO that's what counts. After all forever is a very long time and if their dumb enough to think that the religions of the world just came about for no apparant reason let them believe that.
If they want to believe that we came to life and are conscious by chance duh then let them remain deluded in their own little bubble of denial.
The ego has left the building.
shaman_
06-19-08, 06:53 AM
By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.So following that logic theists are also are also inflating their egos as they are rejecting all the same gods that the atheist does minus 1. (Assuming we are talking about monotheists)
Egomaniac theists.
Right pharaohmoan, but I still feel possible to educate them, some of them have some logic and god is a logical concept. I think they are capable of change.
Atheism has always be a small part of the world and if it seems to grow now, it won't grow infinitely because nature is always there to remind them that we are part of it.
As you pointed out, ego is the oposite of god.
Religion, at least the one from the original mystic in the past is a teaching to forgot our ego and live with others with humility and love.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 07:13 AM
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
.
Here's my spin on why..........
Because there is no proof , combined with the fact that God is a man-made concept...?
How can you believe in God yet also believe you are a conciousness that has been around since before the big bang, been able to bend time, stop traffic with your mind,pyramid stargate etc surely there is as much validation in your other claims as there is in the proof of god........?:bugeye: what is there to go on..a book, only a book and nothing else
Perhaps the believers are just easily fooled who knows........?
(people are stupid collectively remember the alien invasion with:scratchin: i think it was orson wells on the radio)
If God did create everything then plain and simply why is there no life on other surrounding planet....? why waste time creating barren rock.? if it could create such a variation of life on this planet from creatures that live in impossible pressures at the bottom of the ocean, to land dwellers to bacteria then it could simply create life to survive any conditions.......?
some people's intelligence has moved on/evolved in the past 2,000 years some obviously have not, you might just as well worship odin or zeus than worship a one true god.
I feel that it is the next step in the advancement of man's intelligence an end to this one foot in the past belief in fairy tales and the begining of belief in man....!
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 07:15 AM
Right pharaohmoan, but I still feel possible to educate them, some of them have some logic and god is a logical concept. I think they are capable of change.
.
Which 'GOD' are you talking about........? there are hundreds..
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 07:23 AM
Quite simply they are seeking to inflate their ego thereby making themselves the centre of their universe which inadvertantly is a blasphemous stance by default. By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.
If they want to believe that we came to life and are conscious by chance duh then let them remain deluded in their own little bubble of denial.
The ego has left the building.
QUOTE pharaohmoan......."I'm generally of the opinion that the singularity surrounding the big bang was akin to a school fish all swimming and thinking together as one to form a single mind GOD.
What religious belief in god is this........and where is the logic,fact or proof
Personally for all you believers out there I don't think think it's worth arguing with atheists about God because you will just hit the same brick wall with them and continue to inflate their ego. It's simple to see they will not progress very far in the afterlife and IMO that's what counts. After all forever is a very long time and if their dumb enough to think that the religions of the world just came about for no apparant reason let them believe that.
Sounds to me like you're stroking your ego pretty well right now... :rolleyes:
Which 'GOD' are you talking about........? there are hundreds..
simply consciousness, the only one
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 07:47 AM
simply consciousness, the only one
so only your 'God' exist's is that not egotistical...?
phlogistician
06-19-08, 08:51 AM
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
That certainly is a spin, 'cos that's not the definition of atheist you're describing there bub.
Simply, we don't believe in your god, just like you don't believe in Pan, Zeus, Thor, Shiva or Ganesh.
You are an atheist too, but just don't want to admit that our reasons for not believing in your god are the same reasons why you don't believe in the entire pantheon.
so only your 'God' exist's is that not egotistical...?
It is yours also, we have the same consciousness
ego is when you believe that you have your own consciousness different that others, that you are your own god.
but in fact if you look logically there can only be one consciousness which is never changing, all perceiving
That certainly is a spin, 'cos that's not the definition of atheist you're describing there bub.
Simply, we don't believe in your god, just like you don't believe in Pan, Zeus, Thor, Shiva or Ganesh.
You are an atheist too, but just don't want to admit that our reasons for not believing in your god are the same reasons why you don't believe in the entire pantheon.
how can you apply the same argument for many god?
what are your reasons that apply to all gods?
Do you believe in a reality behind your perception?
shaman_
06-19-08, 09:12 AM
simply consciousness, the only oneSo you are rejecting the others? Thor, quetzalcoatl ect.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 09:28 AM
It is yours also, we have the same consciousness
ego is when you believe that you have your own consciousness different that others, that you are your own god.
but in fact if you look logically there can only be one consciousness which is never changing, all perceiving
No we are both concious but we are different conciousness's...
EGO is.......According to Freud,
“ ...The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world ... The ego represents what may be called reason and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions ... in its relation to the id it is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces [Freud, The Ego and the Id (1923)]
And I do not see any logic which points to there being only one conciousness at all..........?
I believe in humanity something we can see,hear ,touch you...
you have just faith, hope....
It's funny how people like P/moan mock atheist's for non-belief in God when they/we have absolutly nothing to proof whatsoever, If you claim something you must provide proof that your claim has validity, if you claim there is a god you must be able to prove this claim, waving a book round is nothing short of moronic...athiests were around before the jews wrote down their history combined with babylonian fairytales and will be around long after the bible has been put on the shelf next to aesop's fables and christian anderson.
Perhaps it is the lack of proof that cause believers to mock atheist's as there truely is no proof for the existence of any gods whatsoever.......
P/moan
I'm interested how some of your other claims of "paranormal powers and abilities" tie in with your belief in god as well...i.e Shaman of quantam physics, being able to bend time, OBB'S, being around before the big bang (which means god couldn't have created man as we were already around), you've said you are multi-dimensional and don't just exist on this plane,able to stop traffic with your mind, and communicate with other dimensions,and you've used the kings chamber to transport yourself to another star system (AND THATS JUST SCRATCHING THE SURFACE)....it seems fitting and hypocritical that you would believe in god as well
codanblad
06-19-08, 09:34 AM
i think being religious is far more egotistical, you're implying that you're part of a divine plan and the creator loves you and takes care of you, that you have a special place in heaven waiting for you cos you're capable of so much good that you deserve it.
atheists believe we're just flesh and bone, eating rooting and sleeping. yeah we're really blowing our own horn here. religious people think the universe was created for them, atheists think they're just an insignificant speck on it.
i'm personally not really an atheist, because i can't prove there is no god. I all but despise religion though, i feel its clearly man made. i won't worship false idols, and the true god will understand my good intentions and reward me appropriately. he won't be a spiteful god who will banish me to hell simply for remaining skeptical and wary of sects, because a perfect entity would be understanding, not a jealous or vengeful lord.
So you are rejecting the others? Thor, quetzalcoatl ect.
I reject them if they are seen as entity in the world of perception, but sometimes this kind of god was represented in myth as the supreme power, so in some sense they were evoking consciousness.
often myth are here as analogy to understand the human mind and helping to forgot the ego
The myth are often representing the human mind: hero being the ego that finnaly become without ego fighting against gods representing the worries and desire of the mind while the supreme god is often represented as consciousness without ego.
This way to see the myths are interesting but here my description is superficial, it depend on the myths. I do not want to make generalization here, I just want to precise that I reject only this god as entity in the world
I just want to say that I do not believe in god as kind of entity living in the world being in another dimension or not.
for me god is consciousness, no more no less.
Pinocchio's Hoof,
In another thread I have put forward my idea and Ijustify why consciousness is only one.
check here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=80880&page=27)
basicaly:
cogito ergo sum establish the existence of consciousness
your ego is a bundle of perception that you can always doubt,
on the other hand consciousness has to always be here, even when you see your ego,
consciousness perceive your ego as well as mine.
So in other word, ultimately we are all this consciousness, we are all god but as soon as we identify ouselves with the ego (the bunddle of perception) we are caught in the woriies, pleasure of life
phlogistician
06-19-08, 10:08 AM
how can you apply the same argument for many god?
what are your reasons that apply to all gods?
Someone who believes in one god, out of the pantheon, can be considered an atheist. It's really that simple.
Do you believe in a reality behind your perception?
Yes. To think otherwise smacks of metaphysical bullshit.
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
Quite simply they are seeking to inflate their ego thereby making themselves the centre of their universe which inadvertantly is a blasphemous stance by default. By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.
Yes, clearly there's only reason why someone would doubt the accuracy of a 2000+ year old book full of stories of talking plants and animals, a guy living in the stomach of a whale, and people magically conjuring things from thin air; inflating their ego.
Someone who believes in one god, out of the pantheon, can be considered an atheist. It's really that simple.
Atheist contains the letter 'A' which means absence
so I would say the reverse to you:
a believer in something beyond our selves is a theist
Yes. To think otherwise smacks of metaphysical bullshit.
For the reason cited above, you are a theist because you believe in something beyond your perception. you have not an absence of belief so you are not an Atheist
Here I quote myself from here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=80880&page=8#160):
imagine an extraterrestrial civilization (who have a view of reality different from atheist/realist from earth and that believe that they do not believe in god (god being what their past religions were talking about)) coming to hear about the different believes on earth, they would probably put both atheist/realist and all theists in the same class: theist
Why? Because they realize that earth belief does not match their belief of reality and for them what is not their reality is god (old naive view of their past religion) ;)
There is no objective way to decide who is talking about reality and god , so no objective way to decide whether an guy who believe in a reality beyond his perception is believing in god or in a reality
But I think that there is still a difference between many theists who believe that they are atheist and some theist that know that they are:
many such so called atheist believe in a unconscious reality while some theist like me believe in a conscious reality
please not here, reality is defined as what is beyond our perception, what you were saying that you believe exist.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 10:53 AM
Pinocchio's Hoof,
In another thread I have put forward my idea and Ijustify why consciousness is only one.
check here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=80880&page=27)
basicaly:
cogito ergo sum establish the existence of consciousness
your ego is a bundle of perception that you can always doubt,
on the other hand consciousness has to always be here, even when you see your ego,
consciousness perceive your ego as well as mine.
So in other word, ultimately we are all this consciousness, we are all god but as soon as we identify ouselves with the ego (the bunddle of perception) we are caught in the woriies, pleasure of life
Hhhmmmm that's a big sandwich to bite...:scratchin:
I wonder how many different factions of faith would state their god was the one true god, I suppose it comes down to what depth of belief or non-belief,I'm an atheist as I believe in no 'God' yet I believe in a natural/spiritual relationship between Man and nature/this panet, belief in god may range from old man with grey beard to cosmic energy. Also it boils down to what you are defining as 'God'.....
Hhhmmmm that's a big sandwich to bite...:scratchin:
I wonder how many different factions of faith would state their god was the one true god, I suppose it comes down to what depth of belief or non-belief,I'm an atheist as I believe in no 'God' yet I believe in a natural/spiritual relationship between Man and nature/this panet, belief in god may range from old man with grey beard to cosmic energy. Also it boils down to what you are defining as 'God'.....
right,
then it is only about justifying your definition.
mis-t-highs
06-19-08, 10:57 AM
Yet more SPAG ronan, do try harder.
Yet more SPAG ronan, do try harder.
for what reason this kind of post?
you did not even answer the post I wrote in answer to yours,
Give arguments if you think my view does not stand.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 11:39 AM
right,
then it is only about justifying your definition.
but the atheist (my) stance is dis-belief in god ' as in come about by most religious text' (a judger,creator, maker), some like to term 'God' to a potential initial spark.
Perhaps where I see acts of nature, common weather extremes (and believe that we are and (prob)always will be at the mercy of nature) people all those millenia ago saw those same occurance's in nature but as an act of a superior race/being/deity/god as they didn't exactly have the same education or in-depth knwledge of what they were seeing.
The athiest has nothing to prove or define , unless the offered claim of 'God' be it any shape or form is accepted as a logical thoery leading to belief or becoming a believer in what definition was offered from yahweh to kali.
When people stop believing in gods they cease to exist/ are no longer heralded as deities..so the prime function of most religions is gaining/recruiting believers given the diverse def of 'God' you would have to define it for me to say if I believed it or was still atheist.
phlogistician
06-19-08, 11:47 AM
Atheist contains the letter 'A' which means absence
so I would say the reverse to you:
a believer in something beyond our selves is a theist
Only if the 'something' is a deity.
For the reason cited above, you are a theist because you believe in something beyond your perception. you have not an absence of belief so you are not an Atheist
I do not believe in any deity, therefore I remain an atheist.
Stop trying to twist the word into some metaphysical bullshit.
Michael
06-19-08, 12:59 PM
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.I was thinking that same thing about theist in regards to Xenu..
Long Live Xenu!
CoS
spidergoat
06-19-08, 12:59 PM
Judeo-Christian-Islamic religion puts man at the center of the universe. Atheism seems to imply that we are but a rare configuration of elements in a vast, indifferent expanse of space, the end process of 3-4 billion years of evolution where we are neither the first or the last lifeforms.
Explain again how atheism is egotistical?
You are also jumping the gun to say that atheism cannot be the outcome of a spiritual quest. It was for me. Atheism is just an attribute of many spiritual practices, such as Zen and Taoism.
pharaohmoan
06-19-08, 01:20 PM
So following that logic theists are also are also inflating their egos as they are rejecting all the same gods that the atheist does minus 1. (Assuming we are talking about monotheists)
Egomaniac theists.
Since when do atheists believe in other Gods isn't that streaching the interpretion of atheist?
QUOTE pharaohmoan......."I'm generally of the opinion that the singularity surrounding the big bang was akin to a school fish all swimming and thinking together as one to form a single mind GOD.
What religious belief in god is this........and where is the logic,fact or proof
The logic is by piling studying systems vary carefully, the fact is in the feed back and the proof is on it's way!
Sounds to me like you're stroking your ego pretty well right now... :rolleyes:
That's such a atheist type twisty turvey reply.
That certainly is a spin, 'cos that's not the definition of atheist you're describing there bub.
Simply, we don't believe in your god, just like you don't believe in Pan, Zeus, Thor, Shiva or Ganesh.
You are an atheist too, but just don't want to admit that our reasons for not believing in your god are the same reasons why you don't believe in the entire pantheon.
Excuse me are you somehow saying you have a God that is better than mine?!
Cos if you are Miss?? %%$$$&&###***!!!!
pharaohmoan
06-19-08, 01:29 PM
Yes, clearly there's only reason why someone would doubt the accuracy of a 2000+ year old book full of stories of talking plants and animals, a guy living in the stomach of a whale, and people magically conjuring things from thin air; inflating their ego.
And where did I say you have to accept the bible. Just the message is enough. I don't know the bible yet I believe in God based on my own study of the mind. The out come from a scientic come spiritual standpoint is afirmative yes there is a God why the aguement just accept it or you shall all regret it. Simple as really. Simply put the revised opinion is athiests refuse to move on as they are fearful of something i suspect, probably devine retribution. They in my opinion are holding back evolution.
pharaohmoan
06-19-08, 01:32 PM
What a sad thread..
Thanks for my first real insult here. Bad karma your way mate :eek:
That's such a atheist type twisty turvey reply.
But it's true! Welcome to hipocracy, enjoy your stay.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 01:40 PM
Maybe the Atheist appears egotistic, aloof as they know something the believer doesn't and visa versa......
Originally Posted by Pinocchio's Hoof
QUOTE pharaohmoan......."I'm generally of the opinion that the singularity surrounding the big bang was akin to a school fish all swimming and thinking together as one to form a single mind GOD.
P/H What religious belief in god is this........and where is the logic,fact or proof
”
P/Moan..The logic is by piling studying systems vary carefully, the fact is in the feed back and the proof is on it's way!
Thats no answer...
mis-t-highs
06-19-08, 01:53 PM
for what reason this kind of post?
you did not even answer the post I wrote in answer to yours,
Give arguments if you think my view does not stand.That is because the reply you gave, was only repeating the very same errors I had pointed out, you had originally made. Your post was in effect, a lot written but nothing said. It is all your doing in every thread your in.
You are yet to make an intelligent post.
It is just SPAG upon SPAG upon SPAG.(self perception as God)
Look at the replies you keep getting and then say to yourself "either every poster that replies is an imbecile, or I ronan am an imbecile."
Thanks for my first real insult here.
Hey man, you were asking for it. Your thread is an insult to atheists.
Anyhow.. don't take it too seriously. If I don't like your thread, it doesn't mean I don't like you :p
Bad karma your way mate :eek:
Don't wish people bad luck..
And where did I say you have to accept the bible.
Fair enough - I've spent too long around people who equate not being a christian with being an atheist.
Simply put the revised opinion is athiests refuse to move on as they are fearful of something i suspect, probably devine retribution.
How can you be afraid of something that you don't believe in?
Although there are of course plenty of exceptions, I would say that in general the opposite is true - it's most theists who seem to hold beliefs out of fear. Specifically, they fear the idea that they will cease to exist when they die, or the idea that they don't have a magical protector watching over them.
Sock puppet path
06-19-08, 02:45 PM
Excuse me are you somehow saying you have a God that is better than mine?!
Cos if you are Miss?? %%$$$&&###***!!!!
That's hilarious, you just emphasized the point he was making and showed yourself to be a hypocrit :D
Medicine*Woman
06-19-08, 04:38 PM
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
Quite simply they are seeking to inflate their ego thereby making themselves the centre of their universe which inadvertantly is a blasphemous stance by default. By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.
Of course the atheist will never admit that they are egotistical and will most probably hide behind the 'prove to me there is a God' statement. Instead of seeking spirituality they want proof handed to them on a plate. Instead of investing in faith they choose to invest in themselves, ask them about Jesus Christ and they will fob you off with comments like he was a con man or that he plainly didn't exist, some even saying he was just some poor deluded man.
Personally for all you believers out there I don't think think it's worth arguing with atheists about God because you will just hit the same brick wall with them and continue to inflate their ego. It's simple to see they will not progress very far in the afterlife and IMO that's what counts. After all forever is a very long time and if their dumb enough to think that the religions of the world just came about for no apparant reason let them believe that.
If they want to believe that we came to life and are conscious by chance duh then let them remain deluded in their own little bubble of denial.
The ego has left the building.
*************
M*W: So why are you here?
KennyJC
06-19-08, 04:41 PM
Well ego is probably an effect of theists generaly being stupid and atheists not so. Theists don't like to be on the lower rung of the intellectual ladder, so they use the ego thing against the atheists.
It's hard not to develop an ego when those around you are 9/11 truthers, Jesus freaks, and taking photographs of 'orbs'.
spidergoat
06-19-08, 04:48 PM
If they understood the logic of it, they would be atheists too. So they must invent the next most plausable explanation, the one they could wrap their brains around.
Phara,
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.The first major fault in your post is the classic error of attempting to make generalizations about a widely diverse group whose attitudes, beliefs, lifestyles, etc, are largely not comparable, the only thing in common is a disbelief in one or more gods.
By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.Atheists don’t denounce gods. To denounce something the target object must exist. Atheists aren’t likely to denounce something they don’t believe exists.
What we do observe is the theist’s ego trip. Here the theist assumes that he and humans are so vastly important in the universe that an incredible powerful super-being capable of creating universes has favored him from the vastness of the universe and will grant him special favors, will answer prayers, and will bestow upon him eternal life. Whereas the more typical atheist view is that man is an insignificant spec in the universe and in the whole scheme of things is totally irrelevant. Hardly an ego trip.
Of course the atheist will never admit that they are egotistical and will most probably hide behind the 'prove to me there is a God' statement.Hardly hiding, and it’s much simpler. Just a single tiny scrap of evidence that shows that a god might be possible would be helpful.
Instead of seeking spirituality they want proof handed to them on a plate.Theists make the claims for gods so the onus is firmly on them to substantiate their wild fantasies. I don’t see anything unreasonable in that or egotistical.
Instead of investing in faith they choose to invest in themselves,So the choice here is spending time convincing oneself that something is real in the total absence of any evidence, or actually pursuing activities that have a real foundation.
And you see value in believing in fantasies because………?
ask them about Jesus Christ and they will fob you off with comments like he was a con man or that he plainly didn't exist, some even saying he was just some poor deluded man.And still no one can show he ever actually existed. Other atheists of course point out that some of the Christian sentiments, love your neighbor, for example, are good ideas.
Personally for all you believers out there I don't think think it's worth arguing with atheists about God because you will just hit the same brick wall with them and continue to inflate their ego.I think many atheists have drawn identical conclusions about the closed minded nature of theists. To the theist there is only one answer to everything – God – they have closed their minds to any alternatives. That is definitely a brick wall.
It's simple to see they will not progress very far in the afterlife and IMO that's what counts. If of course it existed, but that is just another theist fantasy.
After all forever is a very long time and if their dumb enough to think that the religions of the world just came about for no apparant reason let them believe that.But your problem here is that most atheists who have examined the issues do see from history how religions began – they are all man made. Your problem would be to show that there is some supernatural cause and to date no one has come close.
If they want to believe that we came to life and are conscious by chance duh then let them remain deluded in their own little bubble of denial.Chance? If you are referring to evolutionary theories then you should realize that evolution doesn’t occur by chance. You’ve been reading too much theistic misinformation and indoctrination leaflets.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-19-08, 06:07 PM
pharaohmoan
The illusion is you, let go. (266 posts)
06-08-08, 10:27 AM #28
Well I look at life as a search for the truth. I don't ever remember not being conscious and as a result of this I have many lifetimes of memories to draw upon. To some extent I have been trying to understand the inner workings of my mind for I believe this is key in reaching a higher state of consciouness.
From what I've learnt so far I believe this universe to be a mistake born out of a paradoxical situation which created the big bang. As such we became disconected from the source and have been searching for the truth ever since.
With this in mind I have made a concerted effort not only to not bear children, (a selfish act in my opinion given the lack of what is on offer) but rather I prefer to concentrate on evolving so that I might be able to pave the way for others. I will not stop until I achieve a higher form of expression, be in harmony with my surroundings and control matter with my mind so that I can build and accomplish anything.
I think it is you that lives in a Egotistical bubble...lol:crazy: pap
scorpius
06-19-08, 10:03 PM
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
Quite simply they are seeking to inflate their ego thereby making themselves the centre of their universe which inadvertantly is a blasphemous stance by default.
but I AM the center of my Universe...:p
or can you prove me wrong?
By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.
non sequitor,that does not follow
first you have to prove that some dog exist and two, is superior!
can you do it?
Of course the atheist will never admit that they are egotistical and will most probably hide behind the 'prove to me there is a God' statement. Instead of seeking spirituality they want proof handed to them on a plate.
nice try but no cigar,its YOUR god you are pushing here you prove it!
SHOW me this SPIRITUALITY ,I dare you.
theres no such thing and you know it!
Instead of investing in faith they choose to invest in themselves, ask them about Jesus Christ and they will fob you off with comments like he was a con man or that he plainly didn't exist, some even saying he was just some poor deluded man.
LMAO
faith is believing in something that doesnt exist,NOT a wise investment IMO
and
Jesus was most likely fictious figure plagiarized from other religious MYTHologies,most likely Krishna and Horus
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/godmen.html
many many historians have been investigating Jesus existence for very long time and still nothing
http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=60
Personally for all you believers out there I don't think think it's worth arguing with atheists about God because you will just hit the same brick wall with them and continue to inflate their ego It's simple to see they will not progress very far in the afterlife and IMO that's what counts. After all forever is a very long time and if their dumb enough to think that the religions of the world just came about for no apparant reason let them believe that.
forever is just a wishfull thinking as no one really wants to die,
but pascals wager is a sucker bet
http://www.jhuger.com/pascal
fyi
souls were thought to be air/breath by the primitive ancient peoples,now we know better
http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/mind.html
If they want to believe that we came to life and are conscious by chance duh then let them remain deluded in their own little bubble of denial.
we KNOW where we came from and it wasnt a pile of dirt like your buyBull says so,stop projecting...cause its you who is deluded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg
shaman_
06-20-08, 12:24 AM
Since when do atheists believe in other Gods isn't that streaching the interpretion of atheist?I think you misunderstand.
You are accusing atheists of being egotistical because they are rejecting a belief in a higher power. As a theist you are denying the existence of thousands of gods. The atheist is only rejecting the existence of one more than you.
So by your logic, theists have an ego problem as well.
Perhaps I am cherry picking through your explanation a bit though.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-20-08, 03:15 AM
LMAO
faith is believing in something that doesnt exist,NOT a wise investment IMO
and
Jesus was most likely fictious figure plagiarized from other religious MYTHologies,most likely Krishna and Horus
we KNOW where we came from and it wasnt a pile of dirt like your buyBull says so,stop projecting...cause its you who is deluded.
:bravo:
You must realise that he is totaly deluded and disillusioned, throw in a bit of ignorance and naivety combined with narcissistic personality disorder, and hey presto the recipie for a believer in something that can't be seen,heard,felt,touched,known or proved but thats just my opinion and i'm no shrink...add the frustrations at being unable to prove his paranormal abilities:splat:
P/moan "but rather I prefer to concentrate on evolving so that I might be able to pave the way for others. I will not stop until I achieve a higher form of expression, be in harmony with my surroundings and control matter with my mind so that I can build and accomplish anything."
DUDE its like you don't know shit from shinola,yet decided to have a pop at atheist's to vent your frustrations
Only if the 'something' is a deity.
I do not believe in any deity, therefore I remain an atheist.
Stop trying to twist the word into some metaphysical bullshit.
Monotheists are theists.
please read Shankara, Vasithta Yoga, Tripura rahasya, as well as Measter Eckcart, all considered theist talk about god/consciousness.
But the point here is only about word and:
I BELIEVE in a one consciousness beyond my ego THEREFORE I am THEIST
if you believe also in that you are also a theist
simple
but the atheist (my) stance is dis-belief in god ' as in come about by most religious text' (a judger,creator, maker), some like to term 'God' to a potential initial spark.
Perhaps where I see acts of nature, common weather extremes (and believe that we are and (prob)always will be at the mercy of nature) people all those millenia ago saw those same occurance's in nature but as an act of a superior race/being/deity/god as they didn't exactly have the same education or in-depth knwledge of what they were seeing.
The athiest has nothing to prove or define , unless the offered claim of 'God' be it any shape or form is accepted as a logical thoery leading to belief or becoming a believer in what definition was offered from yahweh to kali.
When people stop believing in gods they cease to exist/ are no longer heralded as deities..so the prime function of most religions is gaining/recruiting believers given the diverse def of 'God' you would have to define it for me to say if I believed it or was still atheist.
For many god has no shape, Allah for example
and for many other, god is beyond creation,
for some god is consciousness, the stance I take,
if you take this stance, you are a theist, period.
That is because the reply you gave, was only repeating the very same errors I had pointed out, you had originally made. Your post was in effect, a lot written but nothing said. It is all your doing in every thread your in.
You are yet to make an intelligent post.
It is just SPAG upon SPAG upon SPAG.(self perception as God)
Look at the replies you keep getting and then say to yourself "either every poster that replies is an imbecile, or I ronan am an imbecile."
You did not point out any errors, just attacking my post themselves, not the content of the arguments,
right there is not so much to being said, because that is so simple.
Ego is a process of complexification
First fo all, it is not SPAG, self perception as god?
what the fuck are you talking?
ego is perception, god is consciousness. SPAG is your bullshit
The only time I get upset was for some justified reason (often as an answer to insult like yours, you are the one using teh word imbecile),
most of the time here, I am dicussing with poeple while refinning my arguments and attacking arguments about the materialsim adovacted by many here, that is why there is long thread on atheist realism and if you do not like it, you have two choice: give arguments or leave.
CptBork
06-20-08, 04:20 AM
The only real ego I see is that of the person who claims to understand the most basic fundamental forces of the universe, and expects others to buy into their belief system, yet gives no effective means of demonstrating this claim.
One of the basic tenants of Christianity is ego. Nobody ever says so, but everyone thinks it. It's the idea that Christians (or simply those who believe) are better than other people, destined for better things, or have a better understanding of the 'truth'.
The only real ego I see is that of the person who claims to understand the most basic fundamental forces of the universe, and expects others to buy into their belief system, yet gives no effective means of demonstrating this claim.
I am not saying that you have ego and me no,
Many religious teachings have for goal to help us in life by helping us to give up ego. It does not mean of course that theist have no ego. It means that usually they try to supress it (I agree that many have a strong ego and even do not try to supress it)
Personnaly, I have ego, a strong one in fact, but these teachings taught me that by reducing it I could feel happier.
This last months I experienced it: more you feel detached about what happen in your life, more you feel happy about it.
but I could not yet suppress it completely, sometimes I wonder if it is ever possible without dying.
These teaching by saying that finnaly the world is only perception, they say that you should not worrie to much, you should act while keeping a distance with all the worries and desires of your life.
pharaohmoan
06-20-08, 04:54 AM
Hey man, you were asking for it. Your thread is an insult to atheists.
Anyhow.. don't take it too seriously. If I don't like your thread, it doesn't mean I don't like you :p
Don't wish people bad luck..
OK I won't but I just wanted to thrash this issue out becasue from my perspective it does seem egotistical to deny (noticed I changed it from denounce) a deity.
Fair enough - I've spent too long around people who equate not being a christian with being an atheist.
How can you be afraid of something that you don't believe in?
Although there are of course plenty of exceptions, I would say that in general the opposite is true - it's most theists who seem to hold beliefs out of fear. Specifically, they fear the idea that they will cease to exist when they die, or the idea that they don't have a magical protector watching over them.
I hope I don't contradict myself too much here but although I am spritual I am not a devout Christian I agree that what I have acused atheists of holds true to both sides of the coin. Many Christians are locked into their religion out of fear. But just because an atheist doesn't believe in God doesn't mean there will be no repercusions in the afterlife assuming there is an afterlife and a God. Or because they don't beleive in something it suddenly doesn't exist. It's like saying I don't believe in the Law, if you go and and commit a crime you will still be punished.
Well ego is probably an effect of theists generaly being stupid and atheists not so. Theists don't like to be on the lower rung of the intellectual ladder, so they use the ego thing against the atheists.
It's hard not to develop an ego when those around you are 9/11 truthers, Jesus freaks, and taking photographs of 'orbs'.
Yeah I can see that this happens. Many Chrisitans no doubt do push religion to also boost their ego and think they will be directly rewarded my God this is IMO is a deluded thought as logically for me God would be far removed from any contact with humans purely because they are predictable and somewhat still primative.
If they understood the logic of it, they would be atheists too. So they must invent the next most plausable explanation, the one they could wrap their brains around.
I agree that if one has not had any spritual experiences than logically one might sway towards atheism. I'm lucky however in that I have had many spiritual experiences that point to a higher organised inteligence so I've used logic to accept not deny a greater power. One of the things I often try to get accross is that to deny a greater power is to close oneself off from having any spiritual experiences.
Phara,
The first major fault in your post is the classic error of attempting to make generalizations about a widely diverse group whose attitudes, beliefs, lifestyles, etc, are largely not comparable, the only thing in common is a disbelief in one or more gods.
Atheists don’t denounce gods. To denounce something the target object must exist. Atheists aren’t likely to denounce something they don’t believe exists.
Thanks for clarifying
What we do observe is the theist’s ego trip. Here the theist assumes that he and humans are so vastly important in the universe that an incredible powerful super-being capable of creating universes has favored him from the vastness of the universe and will grant him special favors, will answer prayers, and will bestow upon him eternal life. Whereas the more typical atheist view is that man is an insignificant spec in the universe and in the whole scheme of things is totally irrelevant. Hardly an ego trip.
Yes thiests are at it as well but for different reasons.
Hardly hiding, and it’s much simpler. Just a single tiny scrap of evidence that shows that a god might be possible would be helpful.
Perhaps it's just Gods humour in play and he won't give us any evidence just to test us!
Theists make the claims for gods so the onus is firmly on them to substantiate their wild fantasies. I don’t see anything unreasonable in that or egotistical.
If that's your stance than fine but remember I know the afterlife exists I've had ample proof of it so don't refer to them as fantasies please.
So the choice here is spending time convincing oneself that something is real in the total absence of any evidence, or actually pursuing activities that have a real foundation.
Yes it called a quest for spirituality. Even practicing something like martial arts is a quest that brings you nearer to God by understanding the movement of Chi.
And you see value in believing in fantasies because………?
Because I get energy feedback that confirms my beliefs.
I think many atheists have drawn identical conclusions about the closed minded nature of theists. To the theist there is only one answer to everything – God – they have closed their minds to any alternatives. That is definitely a brick wall.
No I'm not closed minded it's just that the evidence for me points to God existing. It's not just based on faith alone. You can still talk about sprituality.
But your problem here is that most atheists who have examined the issues do see from history how religions began – they are all man made. Your problem would be to show that there is some supernatural cause and to date no one has come close.
Yes there are shortcomings but it's the underlying message that counts otherwise why all the effort!?
phlogistician
06-20-08, 04:59 AM
Excuse me are you somehow saying you have a God that is better than mine?!
Cos if you are Miss?? %%$$$&&###***!!!!
No.
Learn to read.
phlogistician
06-20-08, 05:03 AM
Monotheists are theists.
They are also atheists if they don't believe in the entire pantheon.
Seems you don't grasp this. There are as many 'gods' as people claim to exist, one nore more valid than another (FSM included). You don't believe in all of them. Usually the cop out here is that there is one god and polytheists worship facets of that one god, but that is just a cop out.
pharaohmoan
06-20-08, 05:07 AM
but I AM the center of my Universe...:p
or can you prove me wrong?
Sorry to burst your bubble but your not, your just a fragment of what used to be whole, the GOD mind/collective consciousness.
nice try but no cigar,its YOUR god you are pushing here you prove it!
SHOW me this SPIRITUALITY ,I dare you.
theres no such thing and you know it!
Find it yourself, it's not something you can push onto someone or 'show' them. Except if I removed your Chi.
LMAO
faith is believing in something that doesnt exist,NOT a wise investment IMO
and
Jesus was most likely fictious figure plagiarized from other religious MYTHologies,most likely Krishna and Horus
People have faith in their partners trust and love!
I think you misunderstand.
You are accusing atheists of being egotistical because they are rejecting a belief in a higher power. As a theist you are denying the existence of thousands of gods. The atheist is only rejecting the existence of one more than you.
So by your logic, theists have an ego problem as well.
Perhaps I am cherry picking through your explanation a bit though.
Good arguement. :bawl:
One of the basic tenants of Christianity is ego. Nobody ever says so, but everyone thinks it. It's the idea that Christians (or simply those who believe) are better than other people, destined for better things, or have a better understanding of the 'truth'.
Yes I would agree with some aspects of that, however they will be better prepared for the afterlife which will come as more of a shock to atheists.
Yes I would agree with some aspects of that, however they will be better prepared for the afterlife which will come as more of a shock to atheists.
So you will agree this thread is hipocrytical, and that theists are just as much controlled by ego as atheists.
That's of course a very general statement. There are atheists and theists who aren't nearly as egotistical as others.
They are also atheists if they don't believe in the entire pantheon.
Seems you don't grasp this.
I am no believer in god "machin", ok I am atheist to "machin" (but it is a relative atheism), that is it. I can not say I am atheist (in general) if I believe in god "truc".
atheist is a non belief in any god!
if you believe in at least one god, you are a theist, period.
There are as many 'gods' as people claim to exist, one nore more valid than another (FSM included).
If you say that no gods are valid then you are an atheist.
but phlogistician, you said that you believe in a reality behind your perception. That is your god (there are no objective fact about what can be said to be god or not) so you are a theist.
You don't believe in all of them. Usually the cop out here is that there is one god and polytheists worship facets of that one god, but that is just a cop out.
I do not need to believe in all of them, I believe in one god, it suffice to make me a theist.
atheist is "no believe in any god".
or "believe in no god"
pharaohmoan
06-20-08, 06:03 AM
So you will agree this thread is hipocrytical, and that theists are just as much controlled by ego as atheists.
That's of course a very general statement. There are atheists and theists who aren't nearly as egotistical as others.
Unfortunatly many are ruled by their ego and it is a common trait to bash someone in authority to feel better about oneself. I have taken it to the extreme by saying that denying a God exists, is a similar attribute.
In all fairness though I would be more worried about the ego of the theist compared to the atheist. Ramming religion down someones throat when they may not need religion (ie they have surpassed the need for someone or something to hold their hand ) is not productive and can 'fix' a persons outlook on life and keep them from making concerted opinions of their own bassed on experimentation, trial and error or simply the accumulation of knowledge. Science needs this freedom to declare many of its findings without prejudice and thats a good thing. But science has not finished its quest yet and I believe that soon it will begin to see a higher conscious organisation at work and underlying all, in fact I say soon, isn;t string theory already pointing to such supositions?
nova900
06-20-08, 06:03 AM
As you pointed out, ego is the oposite of god.
Religion, at least the one from the original mystic in the past is a teaching to forgot our ego and live with others with humility and love.
Unfortunately most God believers that tend to get in athiests faces are the ones from the Abrahamic faiths who do not subscribe to the as you mentioned above "one from the original mystic in the past" version of God.They consider this version New Age'ish or false,evil,whatever,too sweet and it is not confrontational enough like Abrahamism (for the most part,a very black and white idealogy..no in between). So, even as a believer in god I can see where many athiests come from when people with nothing more than a set of scriptures and varying idealogies about God and their personal feelings agressively attempt to convert someone.
phlogistician
06-20-08, 06:17 AM
but phlogistician, you said that you believe in a reality behind your perception. That is your god
No it's not. Reality is not a god. Stop being a metaphysical bullshitter long enough to see that you are merely twisting words please.
Unfortunately most God believers that tend to get in athiests faces are the ones from the Abrahamic faiths who do not subscribe to the as you mentioned above "one from the original mystic in the past" version of God.They consider this version New Age'ish or false,evil,whatever,too sweet and it is not confrontational enough like Abrahamism (for the most part,a very black and white idealogy..no in between). So, even as a believer in god I can see where many athiests come from when people with nothing more than a set of scriptures and varying idealogies about God and their personal feelings agressively attempt to convert someone.
Right, I understand and I think we can thanks science to save us from the dark age of religious stupidity.
But now things get circle. science is getting too powerfull in our society taking the place religion had before in shaping our minds.
And because in the past we learn than humility can transform in stupidity, we should not make the same mistake by going back to humility in a more mature way.
No it's not. Reality is not a god. Stop being a metaphysical bullshitter long enough to see that you are merely twisting words please.
But you are a believer , that was the point.
Because as you said god has multiple meaning, what you say is reality can be considered as a kind of god for someone coming from another civilization with different beliefs.
I agree that in everyday language I will address you as an "atheist" because this word has got a different meaning that it should have, it refers to people that believe in what science tell them usualoly, or who are upset of the past religion...
Lety me ask one thing: do you think that the reality behind your perception is unconscious?
it could be the properties that makes atheist different than theist:
theist: belief in a conscious god
atheist: belief in an unconscious god (unconscious reality for using the "correct" word)
Would you agree?
phlogistician
06-20-08, 06:47 AM
But you are a believer , that was the point.
I believe on a lot of things. None of which are relevant to my status as an atheist.
Because as you said god has multiple meaning,
Liar. I said there were as many gods as people claim to exist. Don't put words into my mouth. Debate honestly.
what you say is reality can be considered as a kind of god for someone coming from another civilization with different beliefs.
I did not say that at all. Stop telling lies, and debate honestly.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-20-08, 07:28 AM
for some god is consciousness, the stance I take,
if you take this stance, you are a theist, period.
So once you explain your claim for the existance of 'God' its if I believe it or not that makes me atheist
OK here's my spin on why atheists continue to denounce God and will argue vehemently against the possibility and existance of God.
Quite simply they are seeking to inflate their ego thereby making themselves the centre of their universe which inadvertantly is a blasphemous stance by default. By denouncing something so superior to themselves they are inflating their ego, giving themselves a false sense of superiority.
.
Thats generally the opinion of atheists in Indian society. That they have convinced themselves they have all the answers and lack humility. However, like most things in our society, its not an offence to be an arrogant git so long as you extend the same courtesy to others. :p
OK I won't but I just wanted to thrash this issue out becasue from my perspective it does seem egotistical to deny (noticed I changed it from denounce) a deity.
How is it egoistical ?
It seems more egoistical of the theist to expect believe in his/her deity from atheists.
What if I told you that the planet Mercury is actually entirely made of mercury ?
Would it be egoistical of you not to believe me ?
I believe on a lot of things. None of which are relevant to my status as an atheist.
You believe in a reality behind your perception, that was the point at issue, not the belief in the existence of a banana, don't hide your belief
Liar. I said there were as many gods as people claim to exist. Don't put words into my mouth. Debate honestly.
Many gods, imply many meaning to the word god!
because of that, we don't have really an objective way to decide what is a god or what is not, especially when there is description such as "behind my perception"
I did not say that at all. Stop telling lies, and debate honestly.
You told me:
Do you believe in a reality behind your perception?
Yes. To think otherwise smacks of metaphysical bullshit.
In this case my last post stand, and I ll repeat the questions:
do you think that the reality behind your perception is unconscious?
this unconsciousness of reality could thus be the properties that makes atheist different than theist (knowing that you consider yourself an atheist):
theist: belief in a conscious god
atheist: belief in an unconscious god (unconscious reality by using the "correct" word if the distinction is agreed)
Would you agree?
Is there any atheist who argues that perception is not reality? And yet, they constantly define perception as reality.
Is there any atheist who argues that perception is not reality? And yet, they constantly define perception as reality.
Over here.. and I don't define perception as reality.
So once you explain your claim for the existance of 'God' its if I believe it or not that makes me atheist
not exactly,
if you believe in it, then you are a theist, see below ,
but if you do not believe in it, you can still believe in other kind of god and thus it does not establish your atheism.
for me god is consciousness and there is only one god, so one consciousness, it is beyond our perception, it is what makes them possible.
this is a description of god that is not mine but one used a long time ago in Advaita philosophy and others as well as in the case of many mystic.
if you believe in that, I think we can call you a theist.
for 3 reasons:
1) all self proclaimed atheist I met disagree with this view (I agree it is a weak reason based on induction)
2) Atheist contains the letter A signifing absence so because here there is a belief in a thing beyond yourself, the letter A is not appropriate
3) This kind of god has been established a long time ago by people considering themselves believer in god
Enmos:
Yes you do, you even base your assumptions on evidence.
Enmos:
Yes you do, you even base your assumptions on evidence.
Who doesn't ? lol
If one wouldn't base assumptions on at least some evidence, the world would be a pretty weird place.
Imagine assuming something without ANY evidence at all.
Maybe evidence isn't the best word for it though, how about verifiable knowledge ?
I was chased last night, I didn't see who or what it was, but I assume it was a blue dandelion with three eyes.. :shrug:
Yup, thats an assumption.
I assume of course, that you are not lying.
Yup, thats an assumption.
That's not how I used the word assumption.
An assumption, to me, is a thought or a statement about something based on high probability but without sufficient evidence to be completely certain.
Ah, this must be from the new atheist dictionary of redefined words.
Ah, this must be from the new atheist dictionary of redefined words.
No, it's all me.
You don't agree ?
No, I still follow the standard English definition and meaning of words.
No, I still follow the standard English definition and meaning of words.
The word I use for what you define as 'assumption' is lunacy.
Even assumptions have at least some credibility.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-20-08, 07:54 AM
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2477/1111/320/11_1030.jpg
In the OP you bash Atheist's for thinking that possibly Jc was not what you percieve him to be
Instead of investing in faith they choose to invest in themselves, ask them about Jesus Christ and they will fob you off with comments like he was a con man or that he plainly didn't exist, some even saying he was just some poor deluded man.
.
then you state..
And where did I say you have to accept the bible. Just the message is enough. I don't know the bible yet I believe in God based on my own study of the mind.
I would have thought taking a stance like in the OP and criticising other people's belief or non-belief in what you may believe in you would keep some consistancy....
To bring up Jc (imo) automaticaly means reference to the bible be it christian/catholic/evangelical/protestant or church of zion and the seven angels, so you after bringing this character that is refered to in 'The Bible' (and whose faith some religions are based on),you say the message is enough to believe but you don't know the bible .....if you don't know the bible how can you know the 'message' or enough about Jc to say what he was.............?
In all fairness though I would be more worried about the ego of the theist compared to the atheist. Ramming religion down someones throat when they may not need religion (ie they have surpassed the need for someone or something to hold their hand ) is not productive and can 'fix' a persons outlook on life ?
doesn't this defeat your own OP with the bash at 'the ego of the atheist'...?
http://www.pastorbloopers.com/loser.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2477/1111/320/ScareHell.jpeg
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-20-08, 08:22 AM
I was chased last night, I didn't see who or what it was, but I assume it was a blue dandelion with three eyes.. :shrug:
And I thought it was just me that was being terrorized by woven mutated flora and foliage..lol
not exactly,
if you believe in it, then you are a theist, see below,
but if you do not believe in it, you can still believe in other kind of god and thus it does not establish your atheism.
How do I know if I believe 'it' or not if I don't know what 'it' is..? we are born atheist's (imo) we become theist's after 'it' has been accepted...
If I were to believe in my 'god' my 'it' then it would be the only way, the right way, so any other persons belief's would be atheism as It would be belief in nothing,a falsehood belief in myth rather than "claimed theist truth"(hmm i don't think i'm explaining myself right)..and belief in all deities regardless is just silly
for me god is consciousness and there is only one god, so one consciousness,
Every believer in 'god' believe's their 'god' or 'gods' are the one true 'god/s'..perhaps that it is why it is not the atheist that is egotistical it is the theist
it is beyond our perception, it is what makes them possible.
Pelicans living on pluto, can you percieve it.........:bugeye: no..? so that doesn't make it possible it just confirms the impossible
1) all self proclaimed atheist I met disagree with this view (I agree it is a weak reason based on induction)
Religious induction begins normaly at a more younger manipulative age.
2) Atheist contains the letter A signifing absence so because here there is a belief in a thing beyond yourself, the letter A is not appropriate
THEIST contains the letters T.H.E.I.S.T.if you take out the T Then it relates to a dyslexic belief in SHITE (being the original letter placings and the old Sumarian word for 'what falls out of male cow)'...........lol
3) This kind of god has been established a long time ago by people considering themselves believer in god
this is irrelavent..y/n
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-20-08, 08:32 AM
Is there any atheist who argues that perception is not reality? And yet, they constantly define perception as reality.
I have a perception of reality but it's only based on the parts of reality I know, your perception of reality will not equate to mine and visa versa so I can only percieve it for me and not you, so my perception may not be your reality....
The word I use for what you define as 'assumption' is lunacy.
Even assumptions have at least some credibility.
I assume you are challenged in your ability to comprehend fine distinctions in meaning.
How do I know if I believe 'it' or not if I don't know what 'it' is..? we are born atheist's (imo) we become theist's after 'it' has been accepted...
If I were to believe in my 'god' my 'it' then it would be the only way, the right way, so any other persons belief's would be atheism as It would be belief in nothing,a falsehood belief in myth rather than "claimed theist truth"(hmm i don't think i'm explaining myself right)..and belief in all deities regardless is just silly
I am not saying that theism should be my theism, on the contrary. you have many kind of theism, your idea is exactly the atheist view that they have the right view and all other are theist (meaning of course according to atheist that is it is a wrong view).
would you agree with the definition:
theist: belief in a conscious god?
atheist belief in a unconscious reality?
but the problem is there is probably some that believe in a unconscious god that consider themselves theist while there are people who do not belief in a unconscious reality who consider themselves atheist. And because of the a of atheist I would regard more this people as atheist if really they do not believe in any other god.
so maybe in accordance to the topic:
theist: believer in something beyond themsevles and other
atheist : non believer in something beyond themsevles and other
Would it be ok?
in this case phlogistician would be a theist because believeing in a reality beyond her perception
Pelicans living on pluto, can you percieve it.........:bugeye: no..? so that doesn't make it possible it just confirms the impossible
the point was: without consciousness you cannot perceived
Religious induction begins normaly at a more younger manipulative age.
atheist one also ;)
this is irrelavent..y/n
it is. you probably did not read them...
pharaohmoan
06-20-08, 08:46 AM
How is it egoistical ?
It seems more egoistical of the theist to expect believe in his/her deity from atheists.
What if I told you that the planet Mercury is actually entirely made of mercury ?
Would it be egoistical of you not to believe me ?
Not the best anology as I'm talking about an all powerful deity. My opinion of a planet would just be based on hard fact.
In the OP you bash Atheist's for thinking that possibly Jc was not what you percieve him to be
I didn't say anything about the way I perceive JC. Just comments made about JC by atheists.
then you state..
I would have thought taking a stance like in the OP and criticising other people's belief or non-belief in what you may believe in you would keep some consistancy....
To bring up Jc (imo) automaticaly means reference to the bible be it christian/catholic/evangelical/protestant or church of zion and the seven angels, so you after bringing this character that is refered to in 'The Bible' (and whose faith some religions are based on),you say the message is enough to believe but you don't know the bible .....if you don't know the bible how can you know the 'message' or enough about Jc to say what he was.............?
Well the simple message is be good to one another and believe in an all powerful God maker of heaven and earth. I don;t need to know the bible inside out to know that much.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-20-08, 08:55 AM
I didn't say anything about the way I perceive JC. Just comments made about JC by atheists.
What you claim in the OP about JC is that atheists are belittling him by saying this and that and you are belittling them for having an opinion different to you, so you say plenty about your perception of JC.
you've already contradicted your OP anyway as I said before.
Well the simple message is be good to one another and believe in an all powerful God maker of heaven and earth. I don;t need to know the bible inside out to know that much.
You've gone full hypocritical circle.......You don't know enough about atheism to judge ego.. mr time-travelling pyramid stargate superman
I assume you are challenged in your ability to comprehend fine distinctions in meaning.
Perhaps.
Let me just say that your definition (or the dictionary's) is unworkable, hence I reject it.
What term does exist for "a thought or a statement about something based
on high probability but without sufficient evidence to be completely certain" ?
Not the best anology as I'm talking about an all powerful deity. My opinion of a planet would just be based on hard fact.
And why should that be any different for an all powerful deity, which you haven't proven to be all-powerful by the way... or even to be in existence for that matter.
phlogistician
06-20-08, 09:26 AM
You believe in a reality behind your perception, that was the point at issue, not the belief in the existence of a banana, don't hide your belief
Bananas are as real as anything else. Don't try to make something out of that, that it is not. You are spouting metaphysical BS. Please stop.
Many gods, imply many meaning to the word god!
Not at all. Many gods, implying many instances of the exact definition.
OK, I'm way late on this thread, but I can't help myself.
I don't believe any atheist admits to being one in order to ridicule or shame theists. At least, that's not what they should be doing. If an atheist is discussing the matter, it's because the matter needs to be discussed.
We need to start having these conversations in public forums. It's one thing to have faith in your own personal savior, but we need to start having open and honest discussions about the terrible things that can, and inevitably do, come from organized religion. From the countless, never-ending, genocidal wars in the Middle East, to the evangelicals trying to put Creationism in our schools in the US, we need to start making it clear that religion, at most, should be a personal venture not fit for any public forum.
You can be a good person without religion, and so saying a person "is of faith" needs to stop being talked about as a virtue. George W. Bush's faith is why stem cell research isn't funded on a federal level, so faith can really screw things up when its values are forced upon a society.
You can have your God, but don't tell me that my kids have to learn about it in a public school, and don't tell me that we're not trying to cure diseases because your faith says life begins at conception. Enough with the BS.
pharaohmoan
06-20-08, 10:55 AM
And why should that be any different for an all powerful deity, which you haven't proven to be all-powerful by the way... or even to be in existence for that matter.
As mentioned in my OP the atheist resorts to his mantra 'prove it'! I'm here that's proof enough for me.
How do you prove you love someone or that you are in love?
Ah the old atheist mantra 'prove it'!
How do you prove you love someone or that you are in love?
That's got nothing to do with proof.
As mentioned in my OP the atheist resorts to his mantra 'prove it'! I'm here that's proof enough for me.
You being here is proof of God ?
pharaohmoan
06-20-08, 10:59 AM
That's got nothing to do with proof.
Why because it's a feeling. Well so is the feedback I get from having faith.
Why because it's a feeling. Well so is the feedback I get from having faith.
Of course, but that doesn't prove it's real.
Also, why didn't I get any feedback from having faith ?
phara,
Why because it's a feeling. Well so is the feedback I get from having faith.That's a pure emotional response of satisfaction. You can achieve the same when you think you have found the solution to a difficult problem. The issue with religious emotionally inspired fantasies is that you never get feedback to tell you are wrong.
That nice warm fuzzy feeling you have in the belief that when you die you will exist forever in a utopian paradise - is all you have - a warm fuzzy feeling.
You can achieve the same with the right drugs - guess why so many recreational drugs are so popular, as is religious faith?
The problem with truth is that it is not necessarily pleasant.
Everyone believes that they perceive.
Everyone believes that they perceive.
You are not sure ?
But just because an atheist doesn't believe in God doesn't mean there will be no repercusions in the afterlife assuming there is an afterlife and a God. Or because they don't beleive in something it suddenly doesn't exist. It's like saying I don't believe in the Law, if you go and and commit a crime you will still be punished.
Yes, obviously what we believe to be true doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what actually is true. But most theists don't seem to understand that what is true isn't influenced in any way by our preferences about what is true. I suspect that the vast majority of atheists would love to be able to live forever in heavenly bliss - we just don't see any reason to believe that such a thing is possible. Theists, on the other hand, often seem to believe in things simply because they find them appealing without any particular regard for how plausible they are. And yes, of course there are plenty of exceptions on both sides.
You are not sure ?
No, hence the faith in replicates and standard errors.;)
Medicine*Woman
06-20-08, 02:12 PM
OK, I'm way late on this thread, but I can't help myself.
I don't believe any atheist admits to being one in order to ridicule or shame theists. At least, that's not what they should be doing. If an atheist is discussing the matter, it's because the matter needs to be discussed.
We need to start having these conversations in public forums. It's one thing to have faith in your own personal savior, but we need to start having open and honest discussions about the terrible things that can, and inevitably do, come from organized religion. From the countless, never-ending, genocidal wars in the Middle East, to the evangelicals trying to put Creationism in our schools in the US, we need to start making it clear that religion, at most, should be a personal venture not fit for any public forum.
You can be a good person without religion, and so saying a person "is of faith" needs to stop being talked about as a virtue. George W. Bush's faith is why stem cell research isn't funded on a federal level, so faith can really screw things up when its values are forced upon a society.
You can have your God, but don't tell me that my kids have to learn about it in a public school, and don't tell me that we're not trying to cure diseases because your faith says life begins at conception. Enough with the BS.
*************
M*W: Yea for stem cells! Excellent post. I agree with you on all counts.
As mentioned in my OP the atheist resorts to his mantra 'prove it'! I'm here that's proof enough for me.
The challegne, then, is to prove that a magical supernatural being is the most reasonable explanation for you being here.
How do you prove you love someone or that you are in love?
You provide evidence with your behavior, of course. Flowers is a nice start. Donating an organ is probably faster, though.
OK, I'm way late on this thread, but I can't help myself.
I don't believe any atheist admits to being one in order to ridicule or shame theists. At least, that's not what they should be doing. If an atheist is discussing the matter, it's because the matter needs to be discussed.
We need to start having these conversations in public forums. It's one thing to have faith in your own personal savior, but we need to start having open and honest discussions about the terrible things that can, and inevitably do, come from organized religion. From the countless, never-ending, genocidal wars in the Middle East, to the evangelicals trying to put Creationism in our schools in the US, we need to start making it clear that religion, at most, should be a personal venture not fit for any public forum.
You can be a good person without religion, and so saying a person "is of faith" needs to stop being talked about as a virtue. George W. Bush's faith is why stem cell research isn't funded on a federal level, so faith can really screw things up when its values are forced upon a society.
You can have your God, but don't tell me that my kids have to learn about it in a public school, and don't tell me that we're not trying to cure diseases because your faith says life begins at conception. Enough with the BS.
Its a democracy. Why don't you keep your atheism to yourself? You may find that gives less power to fundamentalists
SAM,
First, I don't live in fear of fundamentalists, nor should I. Second, I would gladly keep my atheism to myself if it were not under constant attack. I am force-fed faith. I have to watch my President veto important bills that would fund progressive research into medicine just because of his faith. I have to watch as they put a sheet of paper amounting to Christian Propaganda in biology textbooks in Alabama schools, and watch as they fight for "equal time" for their creation myths to be taught to MY kids in public schools.
No, I'm sorry, staying in the closet does nothing to prevent the religious fundamentalists from trying to force their faith on me. From moral values to their actual creation myths, we have to constantly fight to keep those things separate from our government.
It's time for theists to keep their religion to themselves.
So you're in a democracy. You vote, other people vote. Maybe there are people who gnash their teeth because abortion is legal, but short of moving somewhere where it isn't, they have to put up or shut up. Why should anyone have a disproportionate influence? Do you pay more taxes than they do? What makes you so ginormously important? Because you think you're right? Take a number.
iceaura
06-20-08, 06:59 PM
Its a democracy. Why don't you keep your atheism to yourself? You may find that gives less power to fundamentalists That's been tried. It hasn't worked.
That's been tried. It hasn't worked.
Is the new approach working? Or do you like it too much to overlook that?
iceaura
06-20-08, 07:11 PM
Is the new approach working? Or do you like it too much to overlook that? Between two uncertain strategies, the honest one that hasn't been tried yet is preferable to the lying one that has failed in the past.
Yeah, the grass is always blacker on the other side.
I like how doctors who used to insist infants don't feel any pain now insist fetuses don't.
iceaura
06-20-08, 07:27 PM
I like how doctors who used to insist infants don't feel any pain now insist fetuses don't. Yeah, theists (most of those doctors were theists) have never been trustworthy with regard to anesthesia. They seem to have some built in reluctance to ameliorate pain, subvert the will of God. The pain of a toothache should be felt by the dental patient, as God's warning against vice and sugar. Advanced cancer patients should be protected from addiction to opiates, in case of miracle.
It's a crippling frame of mind.
Yeah, theists (most of those doctors were theists) have never been trustworthy with regard to anesthesia. They seem to have some built in reluctance to ameliorate pain, subvert the will of God. The pain of a toothache should be felt by the dental patient, as God's warning against vice and sugar. Advanced cancer patients should be protected from addiction to opiates, in case of miracle.
It's a crippling frame of mind.
Clearly doctors are useless when it comes to patients. :p
So you're in a democracy. You vote, other people vote. Maybe there are people who gnash their teeth because abortion is legal, but short of moving somewhere where it isn't, they have to put up or shut up. Why should anyone have a disproportionate influence? Do you pay more taxes than they do? What makes you so ginormously important? Because you think you're right? Take a number.
The implications of a God-fearing society are clear. We have numerous examples throughout history, and right in front of our faces. Religion breeds intolerance and oppression. Speaking specifically of the Abrahamic religions, they generally degrade women and stomp on human rights.
It has nothing to do with thinking I'm right. It has to do with going by the evidences presented before us, and seeing which path is the correct one to take for progress as a society and welfare as a people.
Also, the people who gnash their teeth at things like abortion and gay rights only do so because they find moral justification ONLY in their Bibles. If those things are to influence legislation, then we are effectively a theocracy. I'm not saying the religious should be hanged in the streets, I'm only saying their moral values need to be kept out of Washington.
PsychoticEpisode
06-20-08, 11:26 PM
As far as deities go, I have one of two choices. #1...yes gods exist, #2....no they don't? I choose the latter. Everyone has an equal choice. Religion or espousing non-religion are not choices, they are extensions of #'s 1 & 2.
What can I say about Gods' existence, what can I say about gods' non-existence? Ans: Nothing of any substantial fact.
Are you a moron for believing or not believing in God? Nah. Are you a moron to try and prove or disprove it? yah
EndLightEnd
06-20-08, 11:40 PM
Instead of seeking spirituality they want proof handed to them on a plate.
The one thing I hate about religious zealots is that they think spirituality is for the religious only. Quit trying to humanize the unknown by giving it a name.
PsychoticEpisode
06-21-08, 12:04 AM
I think we just can't stand having our opinions challenged. So you give a shit about theists giving spirituality a name. Is it really important? They could call it 'Hank' and I wouldn't care. It means nothing. We need to be totally apathetic when it comes to the beliefs of others.
We need to be totally apathetic when it comes to the beliefs of others.
I disagree. Apathy may be better than sympathy, but I think society stands to gain more when we put pressure on the religious to keep their faith in their homes and churches, rather than in the public forum.
PsychoticEpisode
06-21-08, 12:12 AM
I disagree. Apathy may be better than sympathy, but I think society stands to gain more when we put pressure on the religious to keep their faith in their homes and churches, rather than in the public forum.
I'm not singling out atheists. Both sides need to be apathetic. Total apathy to the beliefs of others includes everybody whether you agree with someone or not. I guess the only way that's possible is if everyone kept their religious feelings to themselves...highly unlikely I understand.
Well, that I can agree with.
1. The evidence of atheist societies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism) is like a holocaust ad nauseum compared to any theocracy on earth
2. There is no moral justification for any laws outside religion. Not pedophilia, nor rape nor murder. Everything is "natural" as it exists in nature.
James R
06-21-08, 04:19 AM
SAM:
1. The evidence of atheist societies is like a holocaust ad nauseum compared to any theocracy on earth
There are no atheist societies.
2. There is no moral justification for any laws outside religion. Not pedophilia, nor rape nor murder. Everything is "natural" as it exists in nature.
Laws aren't based on things being unnatural. They are based on things being morally wrong.
Morally good does not equate to "natural" or "unnatural". That is the Appeal to nature fallacy.
SAM:
There are no atheist societies.
Except for the self defined ones, like theocracies; if they are not all atheist, its not for lack of trying. Really really hard. Ignoring the atrocities of atheists does not make them disappear.
Laws aren't based on things being unnatural. They are based on things being morally wrong.
Morally good does not equate to "natural" or "unnatural". That is the Appeal to nature fallacy
Laws are based on ideas of right or wrong. Laws in all societies have risen from religion. If gay marriage is illegal, its because the religion in that society says so, not from any appeal to nature.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 05:08 AM
1. The evidence of atheist societies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism) is like a holocaust ad nauseum compared to any theocracy on earth
...
Holocaust ad nauseam that can relate to all the murder,torture persecution in the name of religion a lot more easier than it relates to atheism, a few years of persection in an atheist state does not compare to the 2,000 years of violence,persecution etc in the name of what is good and holy that the world has seen
No, hence the faith in replicates and standard errors.;)
Huh ? I don't get it.
Laws are based on ideas of right or wrong. Laws in all societies have risen from religion. If gay marriage is illegal, its because the religion in that society says so, not from any appeal to nature.
This is simply not true.
Laws are made to serve the people. There are laws that blatantly contradict religion.
Governments make the rules according to the people's wants and benefits.
That a lot of them seem borrowed from religion is because religion made the rules the same way in the past.
Bananas are as real as anything else. Don't try to make something out of that, that it is not. You are spouting metaphysical BS. Please stop.
you can also believe in the existence of bananas, that is another issue
You are the one saying that:
Do you believe in a reality behind your perception?
Yes. To think otherwise smacks of metaphysical bullshit.
that was the only point: you believe in the existence of something behind your perception and that looks like a theist belief :P
That's why then I ask (but you seem to qvoid the question):
do you think that the reality behind your perception is unconscious?
this unconsciousness of reality could thus be the properties that makes atheist different than theist (knowing that you consider yourself an atheist):
theist: belief in a conscious god
atheist: belief in an unconscious god (unconscious reality by using the "correct" word if the distinction is agreed)
Would you agree?
Not at all. Many gods, implying many instances of the exact definition.
Hum hum, please ask the definition of god to many who consider themselves theists, they would give you a different definition.
if you call it their definition, instances of the same definiton, please give the definition of god you seem to know
nova900
06-21-08, 06:19 AM
Well the simple message is be good to one another and believe in an all powerful God maker of heaven and earth. I don;t need to know the bible inside out to know that much.
Unfortunately the "simple message" is wrapped up in varying idealogies that differ from one another and much myth in scripture is taken as literal fact when it is not. Usually I see the ego factor go hand in hand with religous people who believe their version is literal and others not and the ego intensifies depending on how literal they think it is.
It's not the simple message of love and selflesness that most of them want to stress,the message that can bind many faiths together,it's the often closed minded idealogy and a very confrontational image of God that they want to preach to others.It becomes a "my God who can become your God(but only if you believe in the specifics of the religion in question)They want God to be very confrontational and just will not accept otherwise.
I have been on the receiving end of hellfire wrath speeches from many conservative types by just suggesting that God is universal and not as dogmatic and close minded as they believe. It actually seems to incur more of a response than if I was a hard core atheist.
Of course, in fairness the ego problem is not restricted to believers and people in general with a closed mind that is very rigid seem to be more subseptible to it.
This is simply not true.
Laws are made to serve the people. There are laws that blatantly contradict religion.
Governments make the rules according to the people's wants and benefits.
That a lot of them seem borrowed from religion is because religion made the rules the same way in the past.
Thats because religious people have redefined their religion. But go to any society and look at where their laws come from.
In a country with a majority of one religion, if they wanted their scriptures to be law, they would be. In fact are. In the most primitive tribes, they have a deity and a tribal leader and laws are based on what the tribal leader decides the deity wants. If its a human sacrifice, so be it. Are you aware of any primitive system that evolved without a deity or a spiritual adviser to the leader?
PsychoticEpisode
06-21-08, 11:12 AM
Thats because religious people have redefined their religion. But go to any society and look at where their laws come from.
Religion would like to take credit for all the good laws out there. No ego stroking there. :shrug:
Religion would like to take credit for all the good laws out there. No ego stroking there. :shrug:
Whats a good law?
If a majority of Christians decide prostitution, homosexuality and profaning the sacred no longer merits a death sentence, is that a good law? Or a bad one? For whom?
pharaohmoan
06-21-08, 11:23 AM
Of course, but that doesn't prove it's real.
Also, why didn't I get any feedback from having faith ?
I don't know Enmos but what I have learnt so far is that once you pursue a belief that is somewhat paranormal in nature ie delves into the unknown then if lucky you will get feedback. For example I've been of the opinion for some time that we can communicate with nature so through trial and error I've tried it out and got results. Also by practicing tai chi I've learnt a lot about the movement of chi energy which definitly connects to a bigger picture which I've had feedback from. Unfortunatly words seem to fail me in describing some of the connections I've experienced, the best way I can describe it is that when 'the moment' hits you you'll experience a moment of timelessness which feels transcendental.
This excert from the film waking life describes some of what I'm trying to say.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwYXcZOiLeM&feature=related
The one thing I hate about religious zealots is that they think spirituality is for the religious only. Quit trying to humanize the unknown by giving it a name.
OK I'm prepared to accept that there are spiritual atheists but in my opinion spirituality will/should eventually lead to an awareness of something greater.
Unfortunately the "simple message" is wrapped up in varying idealogies that differ from one another and much myth in scripture is taken as literal fact when it is not. Usually I see the ego factor go hand in hand with religous people who believe their version is literal and others not and the ego intensifies depending on how literal they think it is.
It's not the simple message of love and selflesness that most of them want to stress,the message that can bind many faiths together,it's the often closed minded idealogy and a very confrontational image of God that they want to preach to others.It becomes a "my God who can become your God(but only if you believe in the specifics of the religion in question)They want God to be very confrontational and just will not accept otherwise.
I have been on the receiving end of hellfire wrath speeches from many conservative types by just suggesting that God is universal and not as dogmatic and close minded as they believe. It actually seems to incur more of a response than if I was a hard core atheist.
Of course, in fairness the ego problem is not restricted to believers and people in general with a closed mind that is very rigid seem to be more subseptible to it.
Good point
...
Holocaust ad nauseam that can relate to all the murder,torture persecution in the name of religion a lot more easier than it relates to atheism, a few years of persection in an atheist state does not compare to the 2,000 years of violence,persecution etc in the name of what is good and holy that the world has seen
Depends on how you see it. The death toll under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot beat any theocratic record. 3 atheists have done more damage than many many theists put together.
You won't find these guys agreeing with you for instance:
http://www.gaaagle.com/blog/wp-images/movies/tiananmen.jpg
By that toll alone, I think we could not take more than a few years of atheism at a time, without annihilating the human species.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 11:50 AM
Depends on how you see it. The death toll under Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot beat any theocratic record. 3 atheists have done more damage than many many theists put together.
By that toll alone, I think we could not take more than a few years of atheism at a time, without annihilating the human species.
Hitler for one was not an atheist he was raised a catholic and was a religious man who advocated christianity reinventing Jesus as a fighter against the Jews....so the Holocaust was for religious/theist purposes not Atheist :bugeye:
and stalin was sent to study to be a priest..............so that's a load of crap
it is not Atheism which caused the attrocities as you claim but theism...:bugeye:
Hitler for one was not an atheist he was raised a catholic and was a religious man who advocated christianity reinventing Jesus as a fighter against the Jews....so the Holocaust was for religious/theist purposes not Atheist :bugeye:
and stalin was sent to study to be a priest..............so that's a load of crap
it is not Atheism which caused the attrocities as you claim but theism...:bugeye:
So what? Hitler in private conversations considered Christianity to be the biggest evil there is and Stalin murdered the priests of the Catholic church. Richard Dawkins went to a Christian school. Does that mean he is not an atheist?
So what? Hitler in private conversations considered Christianity to be the biggest evil there is and Stalin murdered the priests of the Catholic church. Richard Dawkins went to a Christian school. Does that mean he is not an atheist?
Their programming malfunctioned ?
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 12:00 PM
So what? Hitler in private conversations considered Christianity to be the biggest evil there is and Stalin murdered the priests of the Catholic church. Richard Dawkins went to a Christian school. Does that mean he is not an atheist?
err so Atheism was not responsible for these attrocities..........
Mao was a buddist..............and I don't know enough about pol pot to comment.........
Hitler was a devout believer in Jesus christ..........:bugeye: and what he called positive christianity against the Jews 'as they killed the christian messiah'
Dawkins has not commited crimes against humanity........
It is theism not atheism that has shown savagry and violence throughout history.
do you have evidence of hitlers private conversations from any neutral source.............?
err so Atheism was not responsible for these attrocities..........
Mao was a buddist..............and I don't know enough about pol pot to comment.........
Hitler was a devout believer in Jesus christ..........:bugeye: and what he called positive christianity against the Jews @as they killed the christian messiah'
Dawkins has not commited crimes against humanity........
It is theism not atheism that has shown savagry and violence throughout history.
So the fact that these people self defined themselves as atheist is irrelevant? Thats your "rational" argument?:rolleyes:
So the fact that these people self defined themselves as atheist is irrelevant? Thats your "rational" argument?:rolleyes:
Where is your evidence ?
Their programming malfunctioned ?
Not at all, they wanted everyone to not be delusional, just like themselves. Its a trend you find in many atheists.:cool:
Where is your evidence ?
Uh, they established officially atheist states? :crazy:
There is no argument whether these guys were atheist or not. Its not a matter of contention but of historical record.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 12:05 PM
So the fact that these people self defined themselves as atheist is irrelevant? Thats your "rational" argument?:rolleyes:
Well where do they say they are atheist's , and if they did they were all brought up in religious godfearing households so perhaps it was their frustrations at the lack of proof.being lied to.etc that caused them to be so warped...yet all of them were brought up in strict religious household's of theist's......
so don't blame atheism on a whim when you have no proof to the contrary lets talk about the crusades and inquisition hey
Well where do they say they are atheist's , and if they did they were all brought up in religious godfearing households so perhaps it was their frustrations at the lack of proof..etc that caused them to be so warped...yet all of them were brought up in strict religious household's of theist's......
so don't blame atheism on a whim when you have no proof to the contrary lets talk about the crusades and inquisition hey
Who cares why they did what they did? They were atheists, they established officially atheist states and killed over 20 million people. Those are the facts.
I think 5 atheist states in one century are more than enough.
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 12:08 PM
Who cares why they did what they did? They were atheists, they established officially atheist states and killed over 20 million people. Those are the facts.
I think 5 atheist states in one century are more than enough.
No they were not Atheist's thats b*llsh!t they were all either religious people or were brought up by theist's your claim of Atheist attrocities is crap compared to the amount of attrocities caused by theism and religious edict
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 12:10 PM
Most commonly, it describes tautological, incorrect, misleading, or false language and statements. Literally, it describes the faeces of a bull. As with many expletives, it can be used as an interjection (or in many other parts of speech) and can carry a wide variety of meanings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit
No they were not Atheist's thats b*llsh!t they were all either religious people or were brought up by theist's your claim of Atheist attrocities is crap compared to the amount of attrocities caused by theism and religious edict
Sorry, their own testament and historical records do not support you. By your criteria, no one who calls himself an atheist is one. But I think when you've appointed yourself God, it would take a lot of convincing to show that you were being denied freedom of expression.
Besides all atheists who argue with me here show the same qualities. They want not equality with theists (they are much to smart to sink so low), they want disproportionate influence over government, policy, law and society. They want to remove religious symbolism from public life and God from public society. And thats when they are minority. Give them some power and I bet they will instantly wield it.:shrug:
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 12:13 PM
They were extreme Zealots not Atheist's.............you are obviously not an atheist so are probably speaking with a degree of ignorance...
Pinocchio's Hoof
06-21-08, 12:15 PM
Sorry, their own testament and historical records do not support you. By your criteria, no one who calls himself an atheist is one. But I think when you've appointed yourself God, it would take a lot of convincing to show that you were being denied freedom of expression.
Besides all atheists who argue with me here show the same qualities. They want not equality with theists (they are much to smart to sink so low), they want disproportionate influence over government, policy, law and society. And thats when they are minority. Give them some power and I bet they will instantly wield it.:shrug:
yeah but you have no proof to back your claim up as anythig apart from BS..
What you have claimed Atheism is responsible for is b*llsh!t with no evidence apart from the contrary whatsoever.
They were extreme Zealots not Atheist's.............you are obviously not an atheist so are probably spea