How can religion be used to control inner city youths

[Michael]

I was thinking about inner city youths (gangs etc..) and how violent the inner cities of the USA can be. Now, I was thinking about the real reason for religion - which is obviously to control behavior. Given the notion that inner city youths really need to have their behavior modified, which religion do you suppose would be the best for controlling them?

I was leaning towards Islam. Its has a simple and easy to digest message and daily regulated behavior combined with a God willing to toast your arse if you screw up is the tried and true method of controlling people's actions.

If the girls stay covered maybe there's less chance for sex, therefor less chance for teenage pregos. The boys new gang is simply being Muslim. No more red's popping blues etc...

Any thoughts?

[kenworth]

different sects would soon develop and there would be exactly the same gang wars.

[Raithere]

I was thinking about inner city youths (gangs etc..) and how violent the inner cities of the USA can be. Now, I was thinking about the real reason for religion - which is obviously to control behavior. Given the notion that inner city youths really need to have their behavior modified, which religion do you suppose would be the best for controlling them?

I was leaning towards Islam.Of course, because islamic countries have little to no violence. :bugeye:

The best deterrent to violent and other illegal behavior is education, plain and simple.

http://www.fightcrime.org/

~Raithere

[S.A.M.]

As long as there is poverty and discrimination, there will be gangs.

[Crunchy Cat]

Exterminate the inner city youths and the problem is no more. Collect tithes and hire hitmen. Put the fear of God into their little bones.

[S.A.M.]

They already have that. Its called the cops, but unfortunately, it does not work.

Can you guess why?

[Crunchy Cat]

Because cops are law enforcement and hitmen are mercenaries?

[S.A.M.]

No because fatherless children in poor neighborhoods still have less options.

[superstring01]

They already have that. Its called the cops, but unfortunately, it does not work.

Can you guess why?

Because in the western world, despite the occasional aberration, the cops hands are tied in dealing with gang crime.

A combination of carrot and the stick and sensible criminal legislation would solve the problem:

decriminalize victimless crimes (prostitution, drug usage).
enforce truancy laws with marshall schooling as an alternative for those who can't make the commitment to attend.
make public housing dependent upon random drug testing (drugs should be legal, but the government shouldn't be in the business of supporting drug addicts), household inspections and school attendance and performance of the children.
remove the incentive for suburban flight by doing what Portland, Oregon did, place state parks around the city that basically isolate it and force people to stay in the city and invest their time and dollars there.
centralize all funding of schools at the state capital level, removing the funding from the local level. Distribute the funds on a student basis.
hold the parents criminally responsible for the behavior and performance of their children.
OR you can do what China does-- license parenting, force people to get sterilized. That's a bit extreme, but eventually people need to start guiding evolution by desirable traits and not by who's the loosest and most promiscuous people.


~String

[visceral_instinct]

How the hell are you supposed to 'use religion to control people'? You think you can just insert a program into their brains a la The Matrix, and they'll instantly morph into Muslims? You might manage that with little kids, but teens are NOT malleable.

[S.A.M.]

Because in the western world, despite the occasional aberration, the cops hands are tied in dealing with gang crime.

A combination of carrot and the stick and sensible criminal legislation would solve the problem:

decriminalize victimless crimes (prostitution, drug usage).
enforce truancy laws with marshall schooling as an alternative for those who can't make the commitment to attend.
make public housing dependent upon random drug testing (drugs should be legal, but the government shouldn't be in the business of supporting drug addicts), household inspections and school attendance and performance of the children.
remove the incentive for suburban flight by doing what Portland, Oregon did, place state parks around the city that basically isolate it and force people to stay in the city and invest their time and dollars there.
centralize all funding of schools at the state capital level, removing the funding from the local level. Distribute the funds on a student basis.
hold the parents criminally responsible for the behavior and performance of their children.
OR you can do what China does-- license parenting, force people to get sterilized. That's a bit extreme, but eventually people need to start guiding evolution by desirable traits and not by who's the loosest and most promiscuous people.


~String

Or you could simply give them options:

Not an example of inner city gangs, but still good as an example, considering the tongue-in-cheek OP

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1673270,00.html

[superstring01]

Or you could simply give them options:

Though I don't doubt the long term cost of gangs, I highly doubt that the resolution is providing cushy alternatives that also serve as an incentive to well behaved individuals to "act" badly and get the fun alternatives.

At the end of the day, the government cannot erase all crime. In non-homogeneous societies, there are bound to be cultural and ideological clashes that seem extreme. Life is dirty. Equality of results or living standards is a total pipe dream. You provide reasonable rules to play by, ample incentives to behave, and strong penalties coupled with unwavering education. That's about the best you can do. You cannot drag everybody past the finish line, but you can make interfering with the race as unsavory as possible.

~String

PS-- I think the program you posted about is fantastic and really isn't too far off the alternatives I was talking about. It's all about options to deviant minds: go to regular (well funded, well staffed) public schools, or go to the ones with guards and walls. Either way, you'll be in a classroom, but in one your day is regimented from sun-up to sun-down. It doesn't have to be boot camp or prison, but it shouldn't be a country club.

[S.A.M.]

I think how people visualise you can have a massive impact on your choices. Very often, these kids do not have the option to develop outside of people's expectations.

One thing I used to find odd in Saudi Arabia, before I understood how their minds worked. If you made an official complaint about someone, there would be an official investigation about it [no matter how minor or trivial the matter]; at the end of it, if your complaint was found to be valid, a suitable infraction [usually a pay cut or a transfer] would be issued to the offending party. However, a smaller infraction [depending on the amount of noise generated] would also be issued to the one who made the complaint. Reason? They did not try to reach a resolution through dialogue or diplomacy or by unofficial means before making a formal complaint [if they did try and failed, then they are not infracted]. Its an odd system, but its useful in the workplace.

[Michael]

remove the incentive for suburban flight by doing what Portland, Oregon did, place state parks around the city that basically isolate it and force people to stay in the city and invest their time and dollars there.stopping whiteout is a great idea. I've been in Phili (first time) this week and it's just sick that row after row of Victorian 3 story houses are burned, rotten, and forgotten.

Note: Joes Phili Cheese Steak... meh........

[Michael]

How the hell are you supposed to 'use religion to control people'? You think you can just insert a program into their brains a la The Matrix, and they'll instantly morph into Muslims? You might manage that with little kids, but teens are NOT malleable.yes you are right, I was thinking, accept your losses and start with the kids.

[Michael]

At the end of the day, the government cannot erase all crime. In non-homogeneous societies, there are bound to be cultural and ideological clashes that seem extreme. Life is dirty. Equality of results or living standards is a total pipe dream. You provide reasonable rules to play by, ample incentives to behave, and strong penalties coupled with unwavering education. That's about the best you can do. You cannot drag everybody past the finish line, but you can make interfering with the race as unsavory as possible.String, do you live in the city. What do you think about it. I had forgot how bad it was and now, 3 days back in the US I see some girl punching another girl in the face while waiting in for the bus. I listen to my buddy, whose place I'm crashing at, complain about the 13 year old shot last night he had to operate on.

It suddenly reminded me of a time i saw a guy get his head shot, off, his shoulders. suddenly I thought, religion makes sense.... Imagine how difficult it must have been 5000 years ago. No wonder you needed to convince people of hell.

However, a smaller infraction [depending on the amount of noise generated] would also be issued to the one who made the complaint. Reason? They did not try to reach a resolution through dialogue or diplomacy or by unofficial means before making a formal complaint [if they did try and failed, then they are not infracted]. Its an odd system, but its useful in the workplace.This is fine in a civilized society but in the inner US city....???



PS: You know those free drinks they give during the conference..... yup :)

[John99]

stopping whiteout is a great idea. I've been in Phili (first time) this week and it's just sick that row after row of Victorian 3 story houses are burned, rotten, and forgotten.

Note: Joes Phili Cheese Steak... meh........

Never heard of "joes Phili Cheeses Steak" OR "Joes Philly cheses steak" either.

[synthesizer-patel]

Never heard of "joes Phili Cheeses Steak" OR "Joes Philly cheses steak" either.

There's a new one opened in Israel - its called Cheeses of Nazareth :)

[superstring01]

String, do you live in the city. What do you think about it. I had forgot how bad it was and now, 3 days back in the US I see some girl punching another girl in the face while waiting in for the bus. I listen to my buddy, whose place I'm crashing at, complain about the 13 year old shot last night he had to operate on.

I've lived in four major metropolitan areas: Cleveland, Ohio. Madrid, Spain. NYC, New York. Phoenix, Arizona. I will tell you quite frankly, the ONLY city where I ever saw a gun used to commit a crime was Madrid. I know that, that's the exception, but Mostoles (suburb of Madrid, where I lived) was known for being a hotbed of street crime and petty theft when I lived there. That was 13 years ago and I hear it swings a lot.

New York city was a dream. I loved that city more than any other city I've ever been to (and I've been to a lot of them: Miami, San Diego, Paris, London, Barcelona, Phoenix, Houston, Detroit, Chicago, D.C., Toronto, Quebec City, Marrakesh and Dakar to name a few). They've all got their high points, but I swear there's something about New York that is captivating. I didn't see anything overly distasteful while I was there and, believe it or not, my experience with the natives was nothing but fantastic.

Living in Phoenix was nice, I loved the weather, but there are parts there that are just uninhabitable (South Phoenix & Guadalupe for example). The city is totally sprawled-out and you have to drive a hundred feet to buy a pack of gum. People were a mixture of southwest ruggedness and LA facetiousness. I was never totally able to cope with the utter untrustworthiness of the people I knew. Perhaps that was my fault for not being selective, but I moved out there with a fairly sizable Cleveland diaspora (I was working for Progressive [based out of Cleveland] at that time and opened their new campus) and they all seemed to agree that people weren't as forward about their thoughts. In Cleveland, if someone doesn't like you, they'll either avoid you or just say so. In AZ, there seems to be a cultural need to put up a front and maneuver & jockey friends for political reasons (a very L.A. trait).

Then there's my hometown, Cleveland. It's quite livable. Easy going and remarkably humble people (you have to be, it's not like you can name-drop "Cleveland" to people and get a reaction other than, "Oh, man... I'm so sorry!"). Very blue collar. You can make friends easier than anyplace else in C-Town. It's a city comprised of lots of small towns, each with their own German, Irish, Italian, Slavic, African, Latino, or Asian heritage. Much of the city is a rusted out hulk and it's never rally recovered from the industrial exit of the 70's and 80's. It's experiencing a bit of a revival, but it'll never be the city of Carnegie and Rockafeller (both of whom made Cleveland their home).

As far as the violence goes, well, I guess I'm numb to it. I was told by a friend who went to India once, that the overwhelming overpopulation coupled with the abject poverty is almost unbearable. It all stands next to the most beautiful vistas and buildings imaginable. But after a while, he said, your senses become numb to the smells and contrast that it doesn't bother you anymore. I'm assuming that the contrasts and plights of the first world are very much the same.

It suddenly reminded me of a time i saw a guy get his head shot, off, his shoulders. suddenly I thought, religion makes sense.... Imagine how difficult it must have been 5000 years ago. No wonder you needed to convince people of hell.

You've hit the nail on the head. People need to make sense of it all (literally and emotionally) and religion fills that void. For many people the horrors of the world overwhelm them and they need to believe that something better awaits. The infinite nature of space/time when contrasted with the infinitesimal nature of their life needs rationalization. "God" solves those issues for people.

~String

[John99]

There are too many wealthy religious people.

[superstring01]

There are too many wealthy religious people.

That's a subjective statement. It could be that there aren't enough wealthy religious people, or that there are just too many wealthy people, or that there are just too many religious people (I tend to think it's the latter).

~String

[John99]

Mike thinks that religion alone will change people but then there is the chance that they will just become fanatics. God knows we dont need any more fanatics.:p

[superstring01]

Mike thinks that religion alone will change people but then there is the chance that they will just become fanatics. God knows we dont need any more fanatics.:p

No arguments here. I'm all for people taking personal responsibility for their existence and stopping their dependence on religion to justify and satisfy everything they do.

~String

[Crunchy Cat]

No because fatherless children in poor neighborhoods still have less options.

The threat of hitman death or going to a public school and getting a free education is a no-brainer.

[Michael]

Never heard of "joes Phili Cheeses Steak" OR "Joes Philly cheses steak" either.
Did I mention I have the worse case of jet-lag ever in my entire life. 5 days. Each of them I spend walking in a half dream (including this interview I had at a biotech startup [I hope i didn't sound too flaky]). Then I crash at 9 and wake up at 3 where I stare at the ceiling for 3 hours or type on the internet.

I'll ask my buddy Rani what the name of the place was. Last night we had dinner at a Cuban place that was quite nice. The free fried bread with mango butter was a nice touch :)

[Michael]

I know education and opportunity are the best ways to motive people to behave appropriately and civil.

But my hypothesis was more along the lines of: If people acted equally uncivil 3000+ years ago, then religion and religious-like belief was probably the best means of controlling their behavior. It was true then it should be true now.

Think about it. The Rulers were either Gods (Pharaohs, Augustus), decedents of the Gods (Julius Caesar, Alexander), were in direct communion with the Gods (Mohammad, Chinese Emperors, Aztec Priests), or picked by the Gods to rule (Kings of Europe, Popes)....etc....


It's quite plain to see that religion has been used to control people from day dot.

[Lori_7]

I was thinking about inner city youths (gangs etc..) and how violent the inner cities of the USA can be. Now, I was thinking about the real reason for religion - which is obviously to control behavior. Given the notion that inner city youths really need to have their behavior modified, which religion do you suppose would be the best for controlling them?

I was leaning towards Islam. Its has a simple and easy to digest message and daily regulated behavior combined with a God willing to toast your arse if you screw up is the tried and true method of controlling people's actions.

If the girls stay covered maybe there's less chance for sex, therefor less chance for teenage pregos. The boys new gang is simply being Muslim. No more red's popping blues etc...

Any thoughts?

Yes, I'm not religious so I don't say this often, but you should be ashamed of yourself. Did it ever occur to you that maybe we should help these kids, and not just seek to "control" them by suggesting that they join another gang, or cult, which is basically what religion is? typical...people nowadays don't give a shit about the truth or about what's really wrong with society. just excuse it away and slap another lie on it and hope not to deal with the consequence.

[Simon Anders]

I was thinking about inner city youths (gangs etc..) and how violent the inner cities of the USA can be. Now, I was thinking about the real reason for religion - which is obviously to control behavior. Given the notion that inner city youths really need to have their behavior modified, which religion do you suppose would be the best for controlling them?

I was leaning towards Islam. Its has a simple and easy to digest message and daily regulated behavior combined with a God willing to toast your arse if you screw up is the tried and true method of controlling people's actions.

If the girls stay covered maybe there's less chance for sex, therefor less chance for teenage pregos. The boys new gang is simply being Muslim. No more red's popping blues etc...

Any thoughts?

How can religion be used to control inner (government) circles? Can these gangs with their interlocking boards of directors, rotating doors between these boards and public disservice, redistribution of tax dollars to each other and their propensities towards gang violence that they can sit at home and watch on TV and which is carried out by weopons no innner city youth can get his hands on unless he listens not to carefully to a military recruiters
be
brought under control by religion?

Should missionaries be heading into backroom power meetings dispensing the word of God to people who contribute to the existence of inner cities and carry vastly more violence than inner city gang members without even putting their own asses on the line?