First Atheists in Europe?

[Carcano]

So who were they? And when exactly was Atheism de-criminalized?

Discounting the Greeks for a moment, the figures who created the basis of western science in Europe like Newton, Galileo, Pascal, Copernicus and Kepler were all theists.

Newton in fact wrote more about scripture than mathematics.

So, I'm guessing maybe the french writer Voltaire, with his 'Philosophical Dictionary' may have been the first major player to seriously question religion.

Surprise me!:eek:

[Oli]

Do you know that if you make an endeavor to find out when and by whom atheism was authored you will not be able to find such information from any source? Not even the most "educated" atheists - particularly those associated with the most elite universities throughout the world can truthfully inform you when and by whom atheism originated. They can enlighten you as to who were its main perpetuators in different cultures; but they cannot identify its founder and when it actually originated.

The absence of a known author and time of origin of such a highly embraced philosophy is a strange phenomenon. But this phenomenon is highly indicative. It suggests that atheism is not of earthly origin - that it had its birth in another sphere before this state of time. Atheism is not a manmade doctrine but a doctrine of the demons.:eek:
http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens5.shtml

Alternatively...
Western atheism has its roots in pre-Socratic Greek philosophy, but did not emerge as a distinct world-view until the late Enlightenment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

[Carcano]

http://www.tencommandments.org/heathens5.shtml

Sounds familar...some Christians I knew as a teenager in church believed that Buddhism was inspired by Satan in order to lead the asian hordes astray.

There can only be ONE truth.

[Carcano]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
I looked for major writers here...Thomas Hobbes and David Hume appear to be first in the English language.

[Oli]

Actually now I think about it the guy who wrote that has had a complete failure of the thought processes.
Atheism (i.e. a non-belief in god) MUST have existed before the word of god was spread.
I.e. it's a mode of thought that pre-dates religion, neh?

[S.A.M.]

The neanderthals of course.

[OilIsMastery]

The neanderthals of course.
Calling Neanderthals atheists is an insult to Neanderthals. You should apologize to Neanderthals which are obviously much more evolved in their thinking than atheists.

[ronan]

I saw in this forum two definition (at least two usages) of the word atheist:

A1) atheist believe in the non-existence of god
A2) atheist do not believe in the existence of god , at least two kinds:
- A21) some don't want to express an opinion about the existence of god,
- A22) some don't even think about the question

I don't even know how can someone be A1 and A21 without at least know about theism.
so A1 and A21 atheists have to come after theism

A22 could be someone who do not think about life and just act as a robot or something similar to that. In this case it is possible to have existed before theism (maybe a rock (OilIsMastery, I don't want to insult the rocks, pardon me if I shocked you))

I would bring a third definition of atheist (even if it does not match all atheist I think most atheist are in this category)

A3) To be atheist is to believe to be atheist while in fact being theist

these kind of atheist are in fact theist but have probably existed after other theist as a reaction to the too huge number of different kind of theism.

[Prince_James]

The first Atheist?

Epicurus seems to fit the definition the best.

If you mean post-Christianity? Voltaire was not an Atheist. He was a deist.

The Marquis de Sade probably represents the first serious proponent of utter Atheism. Also nihilism and amorality, but specifically Atheism.

David Hume seems to have Atheist sensibilities.

[OilIsMastery]

The first Atheist?

Epicurus seems to fit the definition the best.

If you mean post-Christianity? Voltaire was not an Atheist. He was a deist.

The Marquis de Sade probably represents the first serious proponent of utter Atheism. Also nihilism and amorality, but specifically Atheism.
Great post!

David Hume seems to have Atheist sensibilities.
Ironic that someone who was in denial of the principle of cause and effect or that the sun will rise tomorrow would set out to deny the possibility of miracles as well.

[Carcano]

Epicurus seems to fit the definition the best.

If you mean post-Christianity? Voltaire was not an Atheist. He was a deist.
Point taken on Voltaire, but Epicurus believed merely in different ideas about the Gods...not that they didnt exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus

"He admitted women and slaves into his school and was the only philosopher to do so, introducing the new concept of fundamental human egalitarianism into Greek thought, and was one of the first Greeks to break from the god-fearing and god-worshiping tradition common at the time, even while affirming that religious activities are useful as a way to contemplate the gods and to use them as an example of the pleasant life.

Epicurus participated in the activities of traditional Greek religion, but taught that one should avoid holding false opinions about the gods. The gods are immortal and blessed, and men who ascribe any additional qualities that are alien to immortality and blessedness are, according to Epicurus, impious. The gods do not punish the bad and reward the good as the common man believes.

The opinion of the crowd is, Epicurus claims, that the gods "send great evils to the wicked and great blessings to the righteous who model themselves after the gods," when in reality the gods do not concern themselves at all with human beings."

[Prince_James]

Carcano:

Whereas it is clear that Epicurus did not outright deny the Gods, their minimal place, wedded to his avowed materialism, seem to place him in what most would consider an Atheist position. His views on the Gods place them basically as good role models for Epicurean behaviour.

[Prince_James]

OilIsMastery:

Ironic that someone who was in denial of the principle of cause and effect or that the sun will rise tomorrow would set out to deny the possibility of miracles as well.

LOL. Yes.

Hume was a wild one. His intellect was shook like jelly like his belly.

[Carcano]

Whereas it is clear that Epicurus did not outright deny the Gods, their minimal place, wedded to his avowed materialism, seem to place him in what most would consider an Atheist position.
If materialism is how atheism is defined then I suppose we could sight even earlier thinkers like Democritus, Anaxagoras, Parmenides and Thales.

I always thought that was a more important question...whether 'spirit' exists, rather than whether deities exist.

I suppose Epicurus did not regard the Gods as having any spiritual aspect aside from immortality.

[Oli]

A1) atheist believe in the non-existence of god
A2) atheist do not believe in the existence of god , at least two kinds:
- A21) some don't want to express an opinion about the existence of god,
- A22) some don't even think about the question

I don't even know how can someone be A1 and A21 without at least know about theism.
so A1 and A21 atheists have to come after theism
A21 comes after theism?
I don't want to express an opinion on the best way to raise children.
Does that mean I must have had experience of raising children?
It means that I consider myself unqualified because I don't have the experience/ knowledge.

A22 could be someone who do not think about life and just act as a robot or something similar to that.
Or it could be someone who just can't see any point giving it thought since it doesn't signify in their life.
E.g. who's going to win the world cup this year (or whenever).
Who gives a toss, it doesn't impact my life.

A3) To be atheist is to believe to be atheist while in fact being theist
Exactly.
Like something being black while it's white, or hot while it's cold...:rolleyes:
Explain.

[pavlosmarcos]

First Atheists in Europe? homo erectusSo who were they?homo erectus, then homo sapien and homo neanderthalensis, and then homo sapien sapien.And when exactly was Atheism de-criminalized?didn't know it was ever criminalised, but the religious have always tried to convert the unbeliever, ( that means anybody who follows a different religion, including the atheist.) and if they could not they killed them.

[S.A.M.]

I'm surprised no one was influenced by the Carvakas

[ronan]

I'm surprised no one was influenced by the Carvakas

I would have mention charvaka as well if the thread was not only about Europe
Jain are also considered to be atheist
Some buddhists as well

[ronan]

A21 comes after theism?
I don't want to express an opinion on the best way to raise children.
Does that mean I must have had experience of raising children?
It means that I consider myself unqualified because I don't have the experience/ knowledge.

you have to first to imagine the existence of god before disbelieving it.

Or it could be someone who just can't see any point giving it thought since it doesn't signify in their life.
E.g. who's going to win the world cup this year (or whenever).
Who gives a toss, it doesn't impact my life.


Exactly.
Like something being black while it's white, or hot while it's cold...:rolleyes:
Explain.
Some atheist believe they do not believe in a god.
But what is a god for them?
For some it is a guy of another dimension , so they do not believe in its existence

But for some theists, god is reality. so for this theist many atheist are in fact theist because they believe in a reality beyond them.

[Oli]

you have to first to imagine the existence of god before disbelieving it.
Alternatively: you don't have to imagine the existence of a god to NOT believe in it.

Some atheist believe they do not believe in a god.
But what is a god for them?
For some it is a guy of another dimension , so they do not believe in its existence
Another dimension eh?
Really:rolleyes:

But for some theists, god is reality. so for this theist many atheist are in fact theist because they believe in a reality beyond them.
After you just said they don't believe in its existence...

[SnakeLord]

Ronan is once again completely perverting words in order to try and claim that atheists are actually theists. Pure idiocy.

[Myles]

People on here do not have the wit to understand the subtlety of Ronan's arguments.

I believe him when he tells me he can stand in a bucket, grasp the handle and lift himself waist high, The whole thing rests on not being able to prove that the bucket is unconscious because we cannot experience unconsciousness, only consciousness, which always existed and chooses to manifest itself through matter, not that matter, per se can be regarded as truly conscious of the process of manifestation inherent in the act of pure consciousness manifesting through media which are, in and of themselves, unconscious until such manifestatiions occur.

It follows that the bucket mentioned above is in no sense a bucket just because one decides to call it a bucket. In German it's called Eimer and in French sceau, which neatly illustrates the point that names are contingent properties. Thus we are talking about the nameless, essential bucket beyond our understanding.

For a more detailed exposition see " When is Something Something Else ,and the Essence of Selfness ? by R. U. A. Wake, Backward Publications.

[Raithere]

So who were they? And when exactly was Atheism de-criminalized?

Discounting the Greeks for a moment, the figures who created the basis of western science in Europe like Newton, Galileo, Pascal, Copernicus and Kepler were all theists.

Newton in fact wrote more about scripture than mathematics.

So, I'm guessing maybe the french writer Voltaire, with his 'Philosophical Dictionary' may have been the first major player to seriously question religion.

Surprise me!:eek:Actually, Christians were considered some of the first Atheists in Europe owing to the fact that they denied the existence of a plethora of other Gods and asserted there was only one.

http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2007/11/09/breaking-news-early-christians-were-impious-atheists/

~Raithere

[ronan]

Ronan is once again completely perverting words in order to try and claim that atheists are actually theists. Pure idiocy.

Idiocy I don't think so, just a food for thought for people who believe in something and say that it is not god because they do not want to be assigned the status of believers.

For an extraterrestrial civilization with different believes and who believe themselves to be atheist will consider any humans who believe in something different than them as theist

of course, there is probably some real atheist but my claim is that most so called atheist are theist because they believe in a reality behind their perception.

[SnakeLord]

Idiocy I don't think so

I knew a guy that thought a kettle wasn't a kettle. Let it be said that it was indeed a kettle.

just a food for thought for people who believe in something and say that it is not god because they do not want to be assigned the status of believers.


Look, frankly this nonsense has gone far enough. Here's some food for thought.. All those atheists that believe in "reality" actually just mean what the other guy says is god - hence every atheist is a theist. However, having said that, every theist that believes in 'god' actually just means what I say is "banana", hence every theist and atheist in fact are neither, they just believe in bananas.

You're a banana.

For an extraterrestrial civilization with different believes and who believe themselves to be atheist will consider any humans who believe in something different than them as theist


Ah but then you stumble upon an alien civilisation who believe you're an idiot, hence you're an idiot.

[ronan]

Look, frankly this nonsense has gone far enough. Here's some food for thought.. All those atheists that believe in "reality" actually just mean what the other guy says is god - hence every atheist is a theist. However, having said that, every theist that believes in 'god' actually just means what I say is "banana", hence every theist and atheist in fact are neither, they just believe in bananas.

First I would not say every atheist because some do not believe in a reality behind their perceptions
Second banana is a perception, thus it is not the reality behind the perceptions that I am talking about!

The point is that many atheist believe in a reality that exist behind our perceptions that science is said to be grasping little by little.
And that this atheist are in fact believer in an entity (namely this hidden reality) that can be considered by an alien civilization as a kind of god.

The idea using alien is to show that because there is no objective basis of a definition of god, any entity that transcend perception can be considered as god by someone who believe he is not believing in any god and disagree with other believers.


You're a banana.


It does not change the weight of my sayings :)


Ah but then you stumble upon an alien civilisation who believe you're an idiot, hence you're an idiot.
You did not get the point.
the alien are the one here to be the idiots like other atheist who believe that other are theist while themselves are!