Sin in Heaven

[Renrue]

One of the main arguments I have encounter against endowing human beings with perfection is that they would end up nothing more than mere 'robots'. Of course, I am sure there are several other arguments and I am no way to able determine what people think. Let us then avoid the argument against the malevolent nature in giving the ability to sin. The main question that I am proposing revolves around heaven.

When a person of a religion fits the properties prerequisite for the entry to heaven and thusly given passage through the Pearly gates, is he/she able to sin? Do you become sinless in that you are no longer human, and thusly unable to sin as the part of the human nature? Or are you able to sin (endlessly) in Heaven without fear of punishment?

The dilemma I encounter at this point is dependent on the answer. If someone cannot commit acts of sin within Heaven, then the person then becomes a 'robot' previously pointed out and would eventually lead back to why Humanity could not have been created as such in the first place.

I would like to see the theistic approach to the dilemma before I propose any more questions, as I am betting there might be a response to this question that I hadn't thought of and would thusly render this dilemma moot.


[Renrue]

[lightgigantic]

One of the main arguments I have encounter against endowing human beings with perfection is that they would end up nothing more than mere 'robots'. Of course, I am sure there are several other arguments and I am no way to able determine what people think. Let us then avoid the argument against the malevolent nature in giving the ability to sin. The main question that I am proposing revolves around heaven.

When a person of a religion fits the properties prerequisite for the entry to heaven and thusly given passage through the Pearly gates, is he/she able to sin? Do you become sinless in that you are no longer human, and thusly unable to sin as the part of the human nature? Or are you able to sin (endlessly) in Heaven without fear of punishment?

The dilemma I encounter at this point is dependent on the answer. If someone cannot commit acts of sin within Heaven, then the person then becomes a 'robot' previously pointed out and would eventually lead back to why Humanity could not have been created as such in the first place.

I would like to see the theistic approach to the dilemma before I propose any more questions, as I am betting there might be a response to this question that I hadn't thought of and would thusly render this dilemma moot.


[Renrue]

basically heaven, or the spiritual world, functions in one way and the material world functions in another.
The living entity is marginal and can exist in either.
The very moment that one attempts to sin (or enjoy separately from god) is the very moment one is in the material world

[Lori_7]

i think that free will is paramount. otherwise i don't think we would be going through the suffering that we are today. what if we went back to the state of existence we were in before the fall of man in the garden, only we know what we know now? back then they obviously had a choice, otherwise they wouldn't have fallen. but after the fall a change took place in their being to where the propensity to sin changed...increased...or became inevitable somehow. so we've sinned, experienced the consequences, and if we're given the chance to go back to a "perfect" state, we would know better than to do it again. i think that perfect state is heaven...no sin, all good, infinite life. right now we have both here on earth, good and bad. but if you extracted one from the other you would end up with a heaven and a hell. there's nothing robotic about doing the right thing all the time as long as you're not doing it in ignorance. so have we had enough suffering to wise up?

[Myles]

basically heaven, or the spiritual world, functions in one way and the material world functions in another.
The living entity is marginal and can exist in either.
The very moment that one attempts to sin (or enjoy separately from god) is the very moment one is in the material world

There is nothing one can enjoy with god. All that time praising him must be a bit of a bore. That's why Lucifer pissed off; to have a bit of fun.

SIN IS THE GREATEST !

[CutsieMarie89]

Heaven always did seem sort of boring to me. From my perspective as a human who is currently alive and has never died, heaven doesn't really seem like all that exciting of a place it just seems like a better alternative to hell, but I can imagine a paradise that I would enjoy more than both heaven and hell.

[lightgigantic]

There is nothing one can enjoy with god. All that time praising him must be a bit of a bore. That's why Lucifer pissed off; to have a bit of fun.

SIN IS THE GREATEST !
actually in all regards, its the exact opposite
:o

[Myles]

actually in all regards, its the exact opposite
:o

I'm really sorry for you. You have clearly never enjoyed the pleasures of some really good sinning. Your life must be really boring. It will be even more so if you ever get to heaven or wherever you expect to go in the end.

Sin now or you will live with regrets later !

[Myles]

Heaven always did seem sort of boring to me. From my perspective as a human who is currently alive and has never died, heaven doesn't really seem like all that exciting of a place it just seems like a better alternative to hell, but I can imagine a paradise that I would enjoy more than both heaven and hell.

You are on the money. Some traditions would have you believe that heaven means living with god and worshipping him for all eternity. Can you imagine anything more boring ? Having grovelled about a bit and told him how much you love him, how great he is and so on, you will run out of nrw things to say. Then you will have to go on repeating yourself for all eternity, something to really look forward to.

[Prince_James]

You see, the problem with this thread is that it does not incorporate the greatest sense of Heaven: Valhalla.

Sin is irrelevant here. What is relevant? Eating an endless supply of medd and pork every night and killing eachother every day.

Then after a long time? You get to fight in a battle that destroys the world and remakes it.

How's that for a Heaven?

Better get yourself ready to die gloriously, as only the valourous get picked for there.

[Myles]

You see, the problem with this thread is that it does not incorporate the greatest sense of Heaven: Valhalla.

Sin is irrelevant here. What is relevant? Eating an endless supply of medd and pork every night and killing eachother every day.

Then after a long time? You get to fight in a battle that destroys the world and remakes it.

How's that for a Heaven?

Better get yourself ready to die gloriously, as only the valourous get picked for there.

Now that sounds really attractive. Will there be lots of blonde maidens to choose from or fight over ?

[Prince_James]

Myles:

Now that sounds really attractive. Will there be lots of blonde maidens to choose from or fight over ?

There will be copious amounts.

Wine, women, song, and violence.

I'm telling you, dude, this is where it's at.

[Myles]

Myles:



There will be copious amounts.

Wine, women, song, and violence.

I'm telling you, dude, this is where it's at.

I have the urge to convert. How do I join.

Yours in sin,
Myles

[Prince_James]

Myles:

I have the urge to convert. How do I join.

Sacrifice a male pig to Odin by hanging it from a tree and sticking it through with spears. Or a slave. Or a war captive.

I'm going to go out on a limb and think that you are more likely to have a pig on hand.

[codanblad]

Myles:

I'm going to go out on a limb and think that you are more likely to have a pig on hand.

you leave myles' mother out of this.

(i'm sorry, i couldn't resist.)

[Myles]

Myles:



Sacrifice a male pig to Odin by hanging it from a tree and sticking it through with spears. Or a slave. Or a war captive.

I'm going to go out on a limb and think that you are more likely to have a pig on hand.

I'm now a member. I have one ex-pig to prove it . Must rush, got so much sinning to do that I don't know where to start

[Myles]

you leave myles' mother out of this.

(i'm sorry, i couldn't resist.)

You are forgiven but do remember that a female pig is a sow !

[Prince_James]

Codanblad:

you leave myles' mother out of this.

(i'm sorry, i couldn't resist.)

HIYO!

[Prince_James]

Myles:

I'm now a member. I have one ex-pig to prove it . Must rush, got so much sinning to do that I don't know where to start

Just remember to die gloriously, otherwise you're screwed.

[Yorda]

Some traditions would have you believe that heaven means living with god and worshipping him for all eternity. Can you imagine anything more boring ? Having grovelled about a bit and told him how much you love him, how great he is and so on, you will run out of nrw things to say. Then you will have to go on repeating yourself for all eternity, something to really look forward to.

Men and women worship each other for all eternity and they never get tired of it. They never get tired of telling how much they love each other. So why should we get tired of worshipping "god", which is the same thing, because god is love.

[Yorda]

When we go to heaven we become united with God which means that the male and female in us unite and we don't need love anymore because we ARE love. But heaven doesn't last forever because nothing lasts forever... not even nothing apparently.

[Prince_James]

Yorda:

1. God is love.

2. The the source of love is the heart.

3. The heart is deceitful above all things.

4. Therefore, God is deceitful.



1. To be deceitful is not to be perfect.

2. God is perfect.

3. Therefore, God cannot be deceitful.

4. Love is deceitful.

5. Therefore, God cannot be love.

[Myles]

Men and women worship each other for all eternity and they never get tired of it. They never get tired of telling how much they love each other. So why should we get tired of worshipping "god", which is the same thing, because god is love.

They get very tired. That's why a change is as good as a rest !

Sin is the Greatest !

[Myles]

When we go to heaven we become united with God which means that the male and female in us unite and we don't need love anymore because we ARE love. But heaven doesn't last forever because nothing lasts forever... not even nothing apparently.

Don't count on seeing me there !

[visceral_instinct]

There is nothing one can enjoy with god. All that time praising him must be a bit of a bore. That's why Lucifer pissed off; to have a bit of fun.

SIN IS THE GREATEST !

I can't believe it, I actually agree with you.

[Myles]

I can't believe it, I actually agree with you.

Great. I intend touring Kansas later in the year and proclaiming the joy of sin.
Would you like to join me and carry a banner ?

My message is simple. I remind people of the story of the Prodigal Son in the Holy Bible. He sinned and ended up making his virtuous brother envious. The moral of the story is that God loves a sinner who repents, more than someone who never sinned.

So, I want y'all to git yer sinnin done now; tomorrow may be too late. Sin now, repent later !

My book ,The Joy of Sin, is available at all fine bookstores in your neighbourhood now.

[Captain Kremmen]

The very moment that one attempts to sin (or enjoy separately from god) is the very moment one is in the material world

Very well put.
Is that your own definition, or are you quoting someone.
If so, who?

[synthesizer-patel]

Great. I intend touring Kansas later in the year and proclaiming the joy of sin.
Would you like to join me and carry a banner ?

My message is simple. I remind people of the story of the Prodigal Son in the Holy Bible. He sinned and ended up making his virtuous brother envious. The moral of the story is that God loves a sinner who repents, more than someone who never sinned.

So, I want y'all to git yer sinnin done now; tomorrow may be too late. Sin now, repent later !

My book ,The Joy of Sin, is available at all fine bookstores in your neighbourhood now.

will there be hookers and hooch?

[Yorda]

5. Therefore, God cannot be love.

but the bible..

They get very tired.

only for a moment.

Don't count on seeing me there !

it dosn't matter how much you sin, you will still go to heaven

[Prince_James]

Yorda:

but the bible..

Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (KJV).

[Lori_7]

you know, i don't mean to be a buzz kill, and i know you're just trying to be funny myles, but the consequences of sin aren't really all that fun. sickness, suffering of all sorts and ultimately death...that's no fun. i mean, when you think about oppression, starvation of children, abuse, neglect, hatred, prejudice, war...are these things the consequence of a good time? sometimes i think people confuse man-made morality with god's defined sins.

[Myles]

will there be hookers and hooch?

There will be no hookers. There will be nymphos who will shag you to death for free. Hooch will cost you or you can bring your own.

[Myles]

but the bible..



only for a moment.



it dosn't matter how much you sin, you will still go to heaven

So when can we get together and do some serious sinnin'. I'm sex mad; hope you are too.

[Myles]

you know, i don't mean to be a buzz kill, and i know you're just trying to be funny myles, but the consequences of sin aren't really all that fun. sickness, suffering of all sorts and ultimately death...that's no fun. i mean, when you think about oppression, starvation of children, abuse, neglect, hatred, prejudice, war...are these things the consequence of a good time? sometimes i think people confuse man-made morality with god's defined sins.

I'm not confused. I'm sex mad, can't get enough. Otherwise I am harmless, not involved in abuse, neglect and so on. I only sleep with girls who enjoy sinnin' as much as I do. Where's the harm ?

[Myles]

Yorda:



Jeremiah 17:9 - The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (KJV).

I have it on good authority that Jeremiah was a two-timin' sonofabitch.

[Lori_7]

I'm not confused. I'm sex mad, can't get enough. Otherwise I am harmless, not involved in abuse, neglect and so on. I only sleep with girls who enjoy sinnin' as much as I do. Where's the harm ?

having sex isn't a sin. liking sex isn't a sin. :shrug:

[heart]

having sex isn't a sin. :shrug:

According to the Bible it is a sin if you aren't married or having an affair

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

[EmmZ]

I don't think love is deceitful. Love is a true source of happiness. Love is a selfless mind. Attachment, desire, craving and grasping however, lie to you. It takes a sharp mind to distinguish the between them.

[Myles]

According to the Bible it is a sin if you aren't married or having an affair

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

Well, as I don't believe the Bible, that's ok.

[Myles]

I don't think love is deceitful. Love is a true source of happiness. Love is a selfless mind. Attachment, desire, craving and grasping however, lie to you. It takes a sharp mind to distinguish the between them.

Do you read many romance novels ?

[Medicine*Woman]

I'm not confused. I'm sex mad, can't get enough. Otherwise I am harmless, not involved in abuse, neglect and so on. I only sleep with girls who enjoy sinnin' as much as I do. Where's the harm ?
*************
M*W: Hey, Myles! I wanted to add my two cents to your post, well, because I have Lori on IGNORE. What she doesn't understand is that the original meaning of "sin" was "darkness or nighttime." It had absolutely nada to do with misbehaving. I know I don't have to tell you this, but the night was a scary time for ancient humans. After all, the sun grew their crops, and that was a good thing. At night, they couldn't see the world around them, and they were scared. To aleviate the scariness, they began worshipping the objects of the night sky.

Per your statement, there is no is done to do harm. Sex was one of the good things about being human, and it had no connotation with evil. Of course, those wonderful guys from the Patriarchy made it evil, and voila, they also gave us the bible where sex with a female was her fault for tempting man, and her fault for the downfall of the human race (BTW, it didn't happen).

I really feel that sex is one of the good things that humans (and every other living creature in the universe) partakes of. Let's face it, we really can't live without it. It's way up there on the hierarchy of human needs. People who deny their sexuality are liars and perverts... yes, perverts. It's perverted to deny one's sexuality, since that's where all artistry and emotion comes from. I really feel sorry for christians who believe that crap.

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"Sex is as important to people as is air, water and food. It's just more fun to survive with love of sex." ~ Author unknown

*************
M*W's Anti-Bitterness Comments (ABCs) of the Day:

"Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall." ~ Confucius 550-478 BC, Chinese Philosopher

[Medicine*Woman]

Do you read many romance novels ?
*************
M*W: Romance novels are for those who aren't getting any. People who have good sexual appetites and indulge don't need to read romance novels. For example, I have never read a romance novel, and I probably never will.

[Prince_James]

Medicine*Woman:

M*W: Romance novels are for those who aren't getting any. People who have good sexual appetites and indulge don't need to read romance novels. For example, I have never read a romance novel, and I probably never will.

So...you're a passionate woman, are you?

Mmm. You're getting more desirable by the second, mein liebe.

[ronan]

"Sex is as important to people as is air, water and food. It's just more fun to survive with love of sex." ~ Author unknown


sex is a delicious thing but love is even more.

"All You Need Is Love" ~ The Beatles

[Myles]

*************
M*W: Romance novels are for those who aren't getting any. People who have good sexual appetites and indulge don't need to read romance novels. For example, I have never read a romance novel, and I probably never will.

Thanks for your interesting remarks. Do you know of Mills and Boon novels ? They are what we call bodice rippers, mildly erotic novels to be read with one hand by deprived ladies.

[Lori_7]

According to the Bible it is a sin if you aren't married or having an affair

1 Corinthians 6:9
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites

yeah well, marriage IS for fuckin'...what else? :confused:

[Lori_7]

So Myles, this is kind of a rhetorical question as I could give a rats ass what the answer is but, would you say that your philosphies, behavior, and habits regarding sex values it, or devalues it ultimately? I've pondered this question a lot in terms of my own behavior.

[Myles]

So Myles, this is kind of a rhetorical question as I could give a rats ass what the answer is but, would you say that your philosphies, behavior, and habits regarding sex values it, or devalues it ultimately? I've pondered this question a lot in terms of my own behavior.

I value it and believe it is to be enjoyed as long as no one else is hurt in the process. All religions seem to have hang-ups about sex ,which are used to control the faithful. Think about it ! They would have us believe that one of our strongest drives is sinful. What a control mechanism !

This whole question of having us believe we are born in sin and so on is so utterly ridiculous that it astonishes me that anyone believes it.

[EmmZ]

Do you read many romance novels ?

Mills and Boon. I like the way they say, "pulsating man lump" and stuff.

[draqon]

And that is why I do not believe in heaven or hell

[heart]

yeah well, marriage IS for fuckin'...what else? :confused:

I don't think sex should be limited to marriage only.

[heart]

All religions seem to have hang-ups about sex ,which are used to control the faithful. Think about it ! They would have us believe that one of our strongest drives is sinful. What a control mechanism !

This whole question of having us believe we are born in sin and so on is so utterly ridiculous that it astonishes me that anyone believes it.

Well said!

[Lori_7]

I value it and believe it is to be enjoyed as long as no one else is hurt in the process. All religions seem to have hang-ups about sex ,which are used to control the faithful. Think about it ! They would have us believe that one of our strongest drives is sinful. What a control mechanism !

This whole question of having us believe we are born in sin and so on is so utterly ridiculous that it astonishes me that anyone believes it.

really? i think it's blatently obvious and demonstrated by our hang ups about sex and a bazillion other things. it is so obvious to me that there's something terribly wrong with us...systemically and inherently. how can you not see it?

[Lori_7]

I don't think sex should be limited to marriage only.

i think sex IS marriage.

[PsychoticEpisode]

i think sex IS marriage.

Careful, sex takes many forms. Rape, incest & bestiality to name a few.

How about our gay friends, they like sex too.

[EndLightEnd]

And only Christians could be happy in heaven while billions were being tortured in hell justifying their cruelty through God.

[Leo Volont]

Paulism, the Doctrines that presuppose that Sinners are allowed wholesale into heaven, was eventually confronted by the Theologians of Catholicism who were not entirely idiotic -- Certainly it must be Impossible for Heaven to have Sin... God cannot be contaminated and still be God.

So we have Purgatory. Sinners are Saved... long enough to ship their funky asses to Purgatory, a great deal like Hell, where their suffering and atonements will eventually purify them to a state where they will not corrupt Heaven.

I have heard of Seers saying that Purgatory has the Light that burns. Those who are Pure see only Light, but those with any density or grossness in their Spirit feel the Light as HEAT. They burst into FLAME, and when the flame goes out, the grossness is gone.

[Prince_James]

Lori 7:

i think sex IS marriage.

You Tolkien elf, you.

[Captain Kremmen]

i think sex IS marriage.

That is an unusual theological stance.

[Enmos]

Heaven always did seem sort of boring to me. From my perspective as a human who is currently alive and has never died, heaven doesn't really seem like all that exciting of a place it just seems like a better alternative to hell, but I can imagine a paradise that I would enjoy more than both heaven and hell.

Heaven is as boring a coma is to comatose person. Meaning it's not.. ;)

[Medicine*Woman]

Medicine*Woman:

So...you're a passionate woman, are you?

Mmm. You're getting more desirable by the second, mein liebe.
*************
M*W: Ja, ich lieben Sie, mein grosse herr.

(Forgive my German. I used to be fluent in it).

[jessiej920]

I think I would go crazy in heaven. Talk about boring. Sin is relative. In some religions everything is a sin. Being human is a sin. WTF? If a higher being created these amazing bodies for us, then why would sex be a sin? I just don't get it. Can you have sex in heaven? I mean, what are you supposed to do up there for eternity? Seriously. I'll take reincarnation any day or even just non-existence over an eternity of wallowing in perfect love or whatever is supposed to happen in heaven. I think, if there is a heaven, you make your own.

[lightgigantic]

I'm really sorry for you. You have clearly never enjoyed the pleasures of some really good sinning. Your life must be really boring. It will be even more so if you ever get to heaven or wherever you expect to go in the end.

Sin now or you will live with regrets later !
lol
once again
in all regards, its actually the exact opposite
:p

[Prince_James]

Medicine*Woman:

M*W: Ja, ich lieben Sie, mein grosse herr.

I do believe I want to play doctor with the Medicine*Woman.

[tim840]

I think I would go crazy in heaven. Talk about boring. Sin is relative. In some religions everything is a sin. Being human is a sin. WTF? If a higher being created these amazing bodies for us, then why would sex be a sin? I just don't get it. Can you have sex in heaven? I mean, what are you supposed to do up there for eternity? Seriously. I'll take reincarnation any day or even just non-existence over an eternity of wallowing in perfect love or whatever is supposed to happen in heaven. I think, if there is a heaven, you make your own.

Any Christian who thinks sex is a sin didn't think about their opinion when they formed it. If God created the human body and designed the male and female sex organs, why wouldn't he want people to have sex? This opinion contradicts the Christian belief that God created man. In fact, the bible instructs married couples to have sex fairly often so that they don't drift apart.

"If I am not allowed to laugh in Heaven, I don't want to go there"

- Martin Luther :bravo:

[Myles]

I don't think sex should be limited to marriage only.

It isn't !

[Myles]

really? i think it's blatently obvious and demonstrated by our hang ups about sex and a bazillion other things. it is so obvious to me that there's something terribly wrong with us...systemically and inherently. how can you not see it?

I don't see it because I have no problems with it. Others can speak for themselves.

[Myles]

Paulism, the Doctrines that presuppose that Sinners are allowed wholesale into heaven, was eventually confronted by the Theologians of Catholicism who were not entirely idiotic -- Certainly it must be Impossible for Heaven to have Sin... God cannot be contaminated and still be God.

So we have Purgatory. Sinners are Saved... long enough to ship their funky asses to Purgatory, a great deal like Hell, where their suffering and atonements will eventually purify them to a state where they will not corrupt Heaven.

I have heard of Seers saying that Purgatory has the Light that burns. Those who are Pure see only Light, but those with any density or grossness in their Spirit feel the Light as HEAT. They burst into FLAME, and when the flame goes out, the grossness is gone.

You do pick up some strange ideas.

[Myles]

lol
once again
in all regards, its actually the exact opposite
:p

Which makes my point !

[Myles]

I think I would go crazy in heaven. Talk about boring. Sin is relative. In some religions everything is a sin. Being human is a sin. WTF? If a higher being created these amazing bodies for us, then why would sex be a sin? I just don't get it. Can you have sex in heaven? I mean, what are you supposed to do up there for eternity? Seriously. I'll take reincarnation any day or even just non-existence over an eternity of wallowing in perfect love or whatever is supposed to happen in heaven. I think, if there is a heaven, you make your own.

I think the general idea of heaven is that you are provided with a thesaurus listing all alternative ways of praising god as he sits on his throne and you grovel and tell him how wonderful he is. Sound's great, I can't wait to go there.

[Myles]

Mills and Boon. I like the way they say, "pulsating man lump" and stuff.

That comes later. According to the formula she has to feel his hard manhood pressing against her thigh while he stares in wonderment at her heaving breasts.

[Myles]

lol
once again
in all regards, its actually the exact opposite
:p

If you and your attention-seeking avatar are going to heaven, I'll settle for hell

[Lori_7]

If you and your attention-seeking avatar are going to heaven, I'll settle for hell

the only reason you're saying that is because you can't fathom such a place.

[SnakeLord]

the only reason you're saying that is because you can't fathom such a place.

If there is such a place that is so unimaginably horrendous that we can't even fathom it, we must invariably be a little bit suspect about the entity that created it. Let's be honest here, you're just a lowly nothing living on a big rock but even you would never, given the chance, make such a place and put others there on the basis that they didn't love, obey or worship you. What is the inevitable conclusion about any entity that would?

Regards,

[lightgigantic]

Which makes my point !

it seems you certainly aren't shy of equivocal means to make your point
:o

[lightgigantic]

Captain Kremmen

Very well put.
Is that your own definition, or are you quoting someone.
If so, who?
its a summation of scriptural conclusions that is reiterated again and again in scriptural commentaries

eg
(Sri Sri Kalyana Kalpana Kalpa-taru) 2.3.1.19
All the souls in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being (a purusa).

Purusa = controller, masculine etc
IOW even taking birth as a woman (in this world) is an attempt to fulfill purusa like desires.
Kind of interesting because it suggests that the whole business of us "purusing" in this world (in any guise of gender or life) is simply an artificial temporary covering.
In fact its even the premise that the OP of this thread operates on - namely "What would happen if you were a purusa in heaven"
to which the answer is, the very act of existing as a purusa is the exclusive opportunity available in the material world.

Does this make sense?

[lightgigantic]

Prince James

Yorda:

1. God is love.
The perfection of admirable qualities finds itself in god, and it finds itself reflected in others who are purely connected to him

2. The the source of love is the heart.
the source of love is actually god
whether that is reflected or not in one's heart depends on how much dirt and dust is in it

3. The heart is deceitful above all things.
for one who is materially contaminated, most certainly

4. Therefore, God is deceitful.
not quite



1. To be deceitful is not to be perfect.

2. God is perfect.

3. Therefore, God cannot be deceitful.

4. Love is deceitful.

5. Therefore, God cannot be love.
Love only becomes deceitful when one is victimized by lies that also speak the language of love .... which means basically being victimized by material desire in one's heart .... which again comes back to purification as being the most essential (and often neglected aspect) of spiritual practice

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

Just to note, I was being somewhat facetious in my argument. Not wholly, but somewhat.

for one who is materially contaminated, most certainly

Ala Nietzsche, I'd argue that love is fundamentally deceitful in as much as it changes one's perception of the beloved, often in favour of a fantasy, or of an idealized view. We often love what we want to see, rather than what we see.

Love only becomes deceitful when one is victimized by lies that also speak the language of love .... which means basically being victimized by material desire in one's heart .... which again comes back to purification as being the most essential (and often neglected aspect) of spiritual practice

I can agree that purgation seems to hold an appropriately esteemed position amongst those practices that one must undertake to manifest holiness, but I'd argue also that even in a situation of purity, the nature of love is to distort by virtue of its value. One must value in order to love. Placing value on something divorces one from objectivity of it. Therefore, it is in some sense, deceitful. To view through the glasses of love is to look through rose tinted glasses.

[Myles]

Captain Kremmen


its a summation of scriptural conclusions that is reiterated again and again in scriptural commentaries

eg
(Sri Sri Kalyana Kalpana Kalpa-taru) 2.3.1.19
All the souls in whom the desire to enjoy separately awakens, have to enter into the material world under the false conception of being (a purusa).

Purusa = controller, masculine etc
IOW even taking birth as a woman (in this world) is an attempt to fulfill purusa like desires.
Kind of interesting because it suggests that the whole business of us "purusing" in this world (in any guise of gender or life) is simply an artificial temporary covering.
In fact its even the premise that the OP of this thread operates on - namely "What would happen if you were a purusa in heaven"
to which the answer is, the very act of existing as a purusa is the exclusive opportunity available in the material world.

Does this make sense?

It is well known in informed circles, e.g., the retired- officers' dining club in Poona, that Sri Kalyana Kalpana was an imposter. He did not, repeat not, have an artificial temporary covering. He lived in a mansion, had numerous servants and played polo with the British.

You are posibly confusing him with Sri Gupta Banerji who lived in a tent and spent his days talking bollocks to the natives.

[Lori_7]

If there is such a place that is so unimaginably horrendous that we can't even fathom it, we must invariably be a little bit suspect about the entity that created it. Let's be honest here, you're just a lowly nothing living on a big rock but even you would never, given the chance, make such a place and put others there on the basis that they didn't love, obey or worship you. What is the inevitable conclusion about any entity that would?

Regards,

snake, i look around at and live in this world everyday and fathom it, and so i have no problem imagining a place like hell. i consider myself to be half way there right now. and for those who don't see this world the way i do, i would imagine that you wouldn't see hell that way either. it's amazing what people will accept and tolerate and numb themselves to and even enjoy and justify!

[lightgigantic]

It is well known in informed circles, e.g., the retired- officers' dining club in Poona, that Sri Kalyana Kalpana was an imposter. He did not, repeat not, have an artificial temporary covering. He lived in a mansion, had numerous servants and played polo with the British.

You are posibly confusing him with Sri Gupta Banerji who lived in a tent and spent his days talking bollocks to the natives.
Sri Sri Kalyana Kalpana Kalpa-taru is a scriptural commentary, not a person

Get back to us when you have something purposeful to add to the discussion
thanks in advance
;)

[lightgigantic]

LightGigantic:

Just to note, I was being somewhat facetious in my argument. Not wholly, but somewhat.
ok
:)




Ala Nietzsche, I'd argue that love is fundamentally deceitful in as much as it changes one's perception of the beloved, often in favour of a fantasy, or of an idealized view. We often love what we want to see, rather than what we see.
unless of course it is through relationships of love that we arrive at our most essential designations of existence
for instance a man may be a factory owner, an atheist and a football player ... yet first and foremost he is the father of his daughter and the husband of his wife.
Theistic issues of relationship simply take it a step further by (re)introducing one's personal connection to god



I can agree that purgation seems to hold an appropriately esteemed position amongst those practices that one must undertake to manifest holiness, but I'd argue also that even in a situation of purity, the nature of love is to distort by virtue of its value. One must value in order to love. Placing value on something divorces one from objectivity of it. Therefore, it is in some sense, deceitful. To view through the glasses of love is to look through rose tinted glasses.
In the same vein as Nietzsche

http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/striphandler.ashx?stripid=38b7c9b4-f384-406f-a4da-444988731434

Existential despair does not always see through clean lenses
:D

[Myles]

Sri Sri Kalyana Kalpana Kalpa-taru is a scriptural commentary, not a person

Get back to us when you have something purposeful to add to the discussion
thanks in advance
;)

Herewith something purposeful as requested. Scriptures and commentators thereon are a legacy of the past, pre-Enlightenment to be precise. All this talk of spiritual realms, non-physical entities and so on is unadulterated bunkum.

That goes for your talk of a personal relationship with god ! Mankind has thousands of years in which to demonstrate the objective reality of any kind of deity and has failed to do so. Today, all we get is the same old stuff regurgitated by the deluded. There really is nothing of value to be said on the subject. When you have some hard evidence as opposed to mantras and wishful thinking, get back to us. I won't hold my breath.

[lightgigantic]

Herewith something purposeful as requested. Scriptures and commentators thereon are a legacy of the past, pre-Enlightenment to be precise. All this talk of spiritual realms, non-physical entities and so on is unadulterated bunkum.
thanks for your opinion
:D

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

unless of course it is through relationships of love that we arrive at our most essential designations of existence
for instance a man may be a factory owner, an atheist and a football player ... yet first and foremost he is the father of his daughter and the husband of his wife.
Theistic issues of relationship simply take it a step further by (re)introducing one's personal connection to god

The swamp of ecstasy a mystic is emersed in seems to be not unlike a rapturous love for an individual. One gets the sense of distortion based on the power of that love, which would again seem to make love "fundamentally deceitful".

[Prince_James]

Also, that was a funny New Yorker-esque comic. I think Sartre would have been far better than Kafka, though.

[BlueMoose]

Sinning is what distract you from God. When sin is no more tempting you, then, you are in heaven, no needs in heaven. Its called nirvana somewhere...
Thats my take on sin and heaven in religions.

[Myles]

Sinning is what distract you from God. When sin is no more tempting you, then, you are in heaven, no needs in heaven. Its called nirvana somewhere...
Thats my take on sin and heaven in religions.

What do you regard as sin and why ?

[SnakeLord]

When sin is no more tempting you, then, you are in heaven, no needs in heaven. Its called nirvana somewhere...
Thats my take on sin and heaven in religions.

I don't sin, at all, ever. Hence this is heaven. Hmm...

[lightgigantic]

LightGigantic:



The swamp of ecstasy a mystic is emersed in seems to be not unlike a rapturous love for an individual. One gets the sense of distortion based on the power of that love, which would again seem to make love "fundamentally deceitful".
what is it that you think is being distorted precisely?

[Prince_James]

LightGigantic:

what is it that you think is being distorted precisely?

The actual nature of the beloved.

All value makes that which is valued appear subjectively greater. Love is a powerful evaluator, as it is bundled up with feelings of ecstasy, which many become, for lack of a better term, addicted to. Indeed, pure, tremendous, substantial love, is almost indistinguishable from heroin or other opiates at its height. As such, one is met with a deceit which sober minds are not as victimized.

[lightgigantic]

LightGigantic:



The actual nature of the beloved.

All value makes that which is valued appear subjectively greater. Love is a powerful evaluator, as it is bundled up with feelings of ecstasy, which many become, for lack of a better term, addicted to. Indeed, pure, tremendous, substantial love, is almost indistinguishable from heroin or other opiates at its height. As such, one is met with a deceit which sober minds are not as victimized.
supposing a person works in a factory, who do you suppose knows them better?
their co-workers or their wife?

[jessiej920]

I think the general idea of heaven is that you are provided with a thesaurus listing all alternative ways of praising god as he sits on his throne and you grovel and tell him how wonderful he is. Sound's great, I can't wait to go there.

Haha, you and me both. Imagine, an eternity of wallowing in never ending love and groveling. Singing hyms and being all perfect and angelic. AHHHH! If there is a heaven ( and we don't get to have sex) there better at least be booze or chocolate. :rolleyes:

[BlueMoose]

What do you regard as sin and why ?

-Me ? I´m just a sinner...
-For me its sin to eat more than you need for example. I guess the whole
western lifestyle is sinful as long its for anti life i.e. destroying the planet.

I don't sin, at all, ever. Hence this is heaven. Hmm...

-Good for you ;)

Haha, you and me both. Imagine, an eternity of wallowing in never ending love and groveling. Singing hyms and being all perfect and angelic. AHHHH! If there is a heaven ( and we don't get to have sex) there better at least be booze or chocolate. :rolleyes:

-What is sinful in sex ? Humping just for fun without caring about the consequences could be sinful, you know, not wanted babies, diseases and so on, its all about control, does your impulses control you or do you control your impulses...
I think your perception of heaven is quite naive,
singing hymns and stuff, lol, sounds like your concept of heaven is
coming from an outside source, like from those boring automatic state-religion priests...well in otherhand it was a part of the question, the theist heaven,
as many heavens as there is theists...

[jessiej920]

-Me ? I´m just a sinner...
-For me its sin to eat more than you need for example. I guess the whole
western lifestyle is sinful as long its for anti life i.e. destroying the planet.



-Good for you ;)



-What is sinful in sex ? Humping just for fun without caring about the consequences could be sinful, you know, not wanted babies, diseases and so on, its all about control, does your impulses control you or do you control your impulses...
I think your perception of heaven is quite naive,
singing hymns and stuff, lol, sounds like your concept of heaven is
coming from an outside source, like from those boring automatic state-religion priests...well in otherhand it was a part of the question, the theist heaven,
as many heavens as there is theists...

I don't think there is anything sinful in sex...you should read all the posts before you make comments on what you assume others believe. I don't think there is a heaven such as where you sing hyms and live in everlasting love blah, blah, blah. So no, my perception of heaven is not naive. I was being sarcastic. And no, I have no affiliation with automatic state-priests either, but thanks for thinking so :rolleyes: And I don't think the consequences of sex are sinful...sin is a religious term that I don't relate myself with. If we are talking abut personal morals or ethics or even common sense...then yes, there are consequences to permiscuous, uneducated sex, but that, to me, is still not sin. It's ignorance or lack of access to education about sexual health. But thanks anyway for the input, next time I see my friends the boring, state-priests, religious fanatics I'll give them a big hello! Right. God Bless and all that. :rolleyes:

[Captain Kremmen]

supposing a person works in a factory, who do you suppose knows them better?
their co-workers or their wife?

There are possibly things that he reveals to his wife that his workmates don't know, and vice versa.

[Myles]

Haha, you and me both. Imagine, an eternity of wallowing in never ending love and groveling. Singing hyms and being all perfect and angelic. AHHHH! If there is a heaven ( and we don't get to have sex) there better at least be booze or chocolate. :rolleyes:

There may just be booze, if you are lucky...water into wineand all that ! The alternative is to be drunk with the love of Big Daddy.

[BlueMoose]

I don't think there is anything sinful in sex...

-Sarcastic of course, I may have missed some posts, often after 1st page its off the topic anyway and getting old... :D But hey, now I know what you think about sex&sin beyond being sarcastic ;) All is good. My bad.

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

supposing a person works in a factory, who do you suppose knows them better?
their co-workers or their wife?

Their wives, by virtue of spending more time with them and the nature of the relationship (one on one v. relatively uncommon).

However, I would argue that something like say............Two police partners, may well know eachother far more than their wives do.

War buddies tend to know eachother very well.

[jessiej920]

There may just be booze, if you are lucky...water into wineand all that ! The alternative is to be drunk with the love of Big Daddy.

I would have to think that if there was booze in heaven then sex would end up being inevitable ;) I think that if you're already in heaven, then nothing is a sin...I mean geez you already got through the pearly gates, why not party on? Can you be evicted from heaven? :D

[jessiej920]

-Sarcastic of course, I may have missed some posts, often after 1st page its off the topic anyway and getting old... :D But hey, now I know what you think about sex&sin beyond being sarcastic ;) All is good. My bad.

No harm done :D

[lightgigantic]

There are possibly things that he reveals to his wife that his workmates don't know, and vice versa.
sure
but in general, which one do you think has the most intimate or essential knowledge of him?

[lightgigantic]

Lightgigantic:



Their wives, by virtue of spending more time with them and the nature of the relationship (one on one v. relatively uncommon).
actually in this day and age it is more arguable that he would spend more time with his work mates
its not so much a matter of time but quality time
(I guess you could further the argument that in this day and age there is not much of that between partners anyway .... but you get my drift)

However, I would argue that something like say............Two police partners, may well know eachother far more than their wives do.

War buddies tend to know eachother very well.
and that is the precise element of quality time
namely sticking through in bad times as well as the good
(and that also perhaps indicates why there is not much quality time in relationships, ie walking out the door is so damn easy)
:shrug:

and as a further point, the ability to stick it out through thick and thin is an essential quality of love
so basically it boils down to
love = ability to see through good/bad times = ability to know a person = most essential aspect of a person
so
love = deceit
really only comes into being when (for whatever reason) the relationship cannot be maintained or stabilized

[Myles]

God knows all. Not a little bird shits but he knows about it.

In general, people dislike know-alls so why make god an exception ? That is a question that has puzzled theelogians for centuries. Answers on the back of a postcard to Vatican City.

[lightgigantic]

God knows all. Not a little bird shits but he knows about it.

In general, people dislike know-alls so why make god an exception ? That is a question that has puzzled theelogians for centuries. Answers on the back of a postcard to Vatican City.
I think the issue has only been puzzling atheists
unlike our common experience of know-it-alls in this world, god doesn't have parallel issues of arrogance
:D

[Myles]

I think the issue has only been puzzling atheists
unlike our common experience of know-it-alls in this world, god doesn't have parallel issues of arrogance
:D

I take it you know that because you are in constant contact with him.

[lightgigantic]

I take it you know that because you are in constant contact with him.
sure
:D
I take it you don't know it because you are not?

[Myles]

sure
:D
I take it you don't know it because you are not?

You are right; I am not. But I'm awaitin delivery of a copy of the sutras of Pantanjali, in the leather-bound edition, and then I shall have my feet under the celestial table.

He that speaks, knows not
He that doesn't speak would have us believe he knows when he doesn't.
He that knows is deluded
He that doesn't know is the only honest one in the bunch.

Sri Gupta Mahahead Biryaniy, no pickle please.

[lightgigantic]

You are right; I am not. But I'm awaitin delivery of a copy of the sutras of Pantanjali, in the leather-bound edition, and then I shall have my feet under the celestial table.

He that speaks, knows not
He that doesn't speak would have us believe he knows when he doesn't.
He that knows is deluded
He that doesn't know is the only honest one in the bunch.

Sri Gupta Mahahead Biryaniy, no pickle please.
BG 7.1 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Now hear, O son of Prtha, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt.

looks like you are reading the wrong book (but the pantanjali sutras might be a humble beginning for you)

[Myles]

BG 7.1 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Now hear, O son of Prtha, how by practicing yoga in full consciousness of Me, with mind attached to Me, you can know Me in full, free from doubt.

looks like you are reading the wrong book (but the pantanjali sutras might be a humble beginning for you)

I take it he was locked up with no prospect of parole.

God is a spirit; he hasn't got a head.

[lightgigantic]

I take it he was locked up with no prospect of parole.

God is a spirit; he hasn't got a head.
erm - no
rather he forms a respectable part of the understanding of nirguna and saguna (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-516336/saguna) descriptions of the absolute

[Myles]

erm - no
rather he forms a respectable part of the understanding of nirguna and saguna (http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-516336/saguna) descriptions of the absolute

Nirguna is a very hot curry. I don't know what the other one is. Some sort of fish ?

The way I see it we are all atome in the leg of god's chair.

( Hidden teachings of the Mahayana ) Dr. Suzuki.

[lightgigantic]

Nirguna is a very hot curry. I don't know what the other one is. Some sort of fish ?

The way I see it we are all atome in the leg of god's chair.

( Hidden teachings of the Mahayana ) Dr. Suzuki.
anyway, good luck with pantanjali
:D

[Prince_James]

lightgigantic:

actually in this day and age it is more arguable that he would spend more time with his work mates
its not so much a matter of time but quality time
(I guess you could further the argument that in this day and age there is not much of that between partners anyway .... but you get my drift)

Yes, I catch your drift fine.

and as a further point, the ability to stick it out through thick and thin is an essential quality of love
so basically it boils down to
love = ability to see through good/bad times = ability to know a person = most essential aspect of a person
so
love = deceit
really only comes into being when (for whatever reason) the relationship cannot be maintained or stabilized

Ah, but you are bypassing the nature of value in this situation.

Tell me, two men walk by a pile of gold, ripe for the taking. In one man's culture, gold is highly valued. In another, it is just metal. How will the two men respond? And what does it say about the essential nature of gold?

[lightgigantic]

lightgigantic:



Yes, I catch your drift fine.



Ah, but you are bypassing the nature of value in this situation.

Tell me, two men walk by a pile of gold, ripe for the taking. In one man's culture, gold is highly valued. In another, it is just metal. How will the two men respond? And what does it say about the essential nature of gold?

its relative of course

my question to you is what is the relative issue of this


love = ability to see through good/bad times = ability to know a person = most essential aspect of a person

even though the applications of love might be relative, the issues of it are essential

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

love = ability to see through good/bad times = ability to know a person = most essential aspect of a person

I agree that strong love endures. However, I am not certain that it knows "deeply" without a certain smokey haze of valuation over it. It certainly knows deeply, but with clouded lens.

[Captain Kremmen]

sure
but in general, which one do you think has the most intimate or essential knowledge of him?

His Wife, hopefully.
Though there may be things that he reveals to his workmates that he hides from his wife and family. Some of these things may be intimate or essential details about his life. If so, it points to a poor marital/family relationship.
What are you getting at?

[lightgigantic]

His Wife, hopefully.
Though there may be things that he reveals to his workmates that he hides from his wife and family. Some of these things may be intimate or essential details about his life. If so, it points to a poor marital/family relationship.
What are you getting at?
the issues of the essential aspect of a person have the opportunity to be displayed only through the medium of love, even if it is the camaraderie of workmates.
So to say that love =deceit doesn't seem to be quite right

[lightgigantic]

Lightgigantic:



I agree that strong love endures. However, I am not certain that it knows "deeply" without a certain smokey haze of valuation over it. It certainly knows deeply, but with clouded lens.
what is it that specifically gets clouded?

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

what is it that specifically gets clouded?

The nature of the beloved. When we value something, we claim it is great.

To go back to the gold analogue, the man who loves gold will view the pile of gold as an amazing find. He will cherish that find and thank God for the luck of becoming a wealthy man. Meanwhile, the man from the culture which devalues gold and has no use for it would not even give it a second glance.

[lightgigantic]

Lightgigantic:



The nature of the beloved. When we value something, we claim it is great.
and what is the truth?
that actually we are not great?
Isn't that also a value?

To go back to the gold analogue, the man who loves gold will view the pile of gold as an amazing find. He will cherish that find and thank God for the luck of becoming a wealthy man. Meanwhile, the man from the culture which devalues gold and has no use for it would not even give it a second glance.
however both of them can indicate something as possessing value and that would be identical - for instance the man who sees gold can explain it is wonderful because now he can purchase all his necessities in life and not have to worry - perhaps the other man might think that best situation for having no worries would be living in a grass hut in the jungle - regardless of issues of application, the value of being free from worries (or whatever value you attribute to the possession of god) is readily communicated outside of relative issues of culture etc

[Prince_James]

Lightgigantic:

and what is the truth?
that actually we are not great?
Isn't that also a value?

All personal value takes away from the objectivity. One could speak of valuelessness as perhaps the best feature.

however both of them can indicate something as possessing value and that would be identical - for instance the man who sees gold can explain it is wonderful because now he can purchase all his necessities in life and not have to worry - perhaps the other man might think that best situation for having no worries would be living in a grass hut in the jungle - regardless of issues of application, the value of being free from worries (or whatever value you attribute to the possession of god) is readily communicated outside of relative issues of culture etc

Agreed. There is a pragmatic benefit in certain basic things which no one can deny for anyone who is alive.

[lightgigantic]

Prince James:

All personal value takes away from the objectivity. One could speak of valuelessness as perhaps the best feature.

actually I think it is better to speak of understanding which values stand as more important/valid than other values as the best feature