Who kills more atheists?

[S.A.M.]

Are there any statistics as to where atheists are most likely to be actually killed for lack of belief? I'm not referring to laws (we have anti-homosexuality laws in India which everyone ignores, for instance), but actual violence against atheists.

[ronan]

Interesting question, but maybe there is a correlation between the probability to be killed and the belief in god :p

in other words:
dangerous environment makes you maybe believing more in god hoping it will save you.

If this correlations exist, their will be difficulties to find out whether the guy get killed because he was a theist or if he become a theist because he was most likely to be killed :p

[greenberg]

According to many atheists, people are atheists by nature. According to that view, a newborn is an atheist; I suppose so are the yet unborn.
So, to answer your question in the thread title -Who kills more atheists?-, the answer is women who have abortions and people who commit infanticide. Which is quite a number.
These children can't be said to have been killed for their atheistic persuasion, though.
But from an atheist perspective, infanticide and abortion are acts of violence against atheists. (To note though that not all atheists consider abortion to be murder.)

[toltec]

A muslim country that practices sharia law for apostates. While the person may never have had a belief he woudl still be considered an apostate.

[S.A.M.]

Can you give me an example of an actual killing?

[orcot]

Only atheist or also people from a other (the wrong) faith.

Their are also theist who get presecuted for none religious but still social behaviour. Like WWII with jews on politics and economics. Or more recent in Sudan were christians are suposedly killed by muslims (nobody bothers with the fact that the christian population live in a fertile area while the sahara is expanding into moslim territory.



Most of selective killings are done for on a different social class to resolve politcal economical, territorial,... disputes. The religious part is yust because they prosecuters know their wrong and therefore yustify their actions by saying that god did it. It's real immature until you can smell the blood then it becomes real scarry

[S.A.M.]

I'm just trying to figure out which place has most violent deaths for unbelief.

[Syzygys]

Are there any statistics as to where atheists are most likely to be actually killed for lack of belief?

Yes, it is called the history book. I know....

P.S.: I think some of the Islam countries have laws against being an atheist...

[Myles]

God, in his infinite love and mercy, kills them because he is righteous. Vengance is mine, etc., etc.

[S.A.M.]

Not a single atheist murdered?

[synthesizer-patel]

there was this loon:

http://www.parallelpac.org/murder.htm

[iceaura]

Are there any statistics as to where atheists are most likely to be actually killed for lack of belief? Quite a few people have been killed in Latin and South America for being "godless communists", especially if they attempted to organize trade unions or write newspaper articles.

But whether "lack of belief" was the offense or not is debatable. It's hard to spot atheists, in communities that threaten them. Very few of the atheistic Catholic priests are visible, for example.

Since the rise of science as a set of organized disciplines, de facto atheism has become much more acceptable to those who wish to enjoy the benefits of reliable description of the natural world. The opportunity cost of killing atheists is pretty high, these days.

The various Inquisitions and so forth in Christian Europe did fade. There are places in the Islamic world where atheism is a dangerous admission, but for some reason few atheists are found there.

The matter is complicated by the practice of declaring one's enemies to be "atheist", in the case of their practicing a different and therefore invalid version of Deity worship - whether the Catholics were killing the Protestants in Europe, or the Inca in Peru, because of their atheism as defined by the Church, is a slippery issue.

[pavlosmarcos]

Are there any statistics as to where atheists are most likely to be actually killed for lack of belief? I'm not referring to laws (we have anti-homosexuality laws in India which everyone ignores, for instance), but actual violence against atheists.it is very unlikely, but not impossible. Because atheists having no reason to believe in fantasies, so therefore can act the part of a theist without fear of retribution, thus surviving.
Kill the unbeliever, is the cry of the nutjobs which means any denomination of opposite religious belief.
You are atheist to all other religions bar your own, arn't you.

Interesting question, but maybe there is a correlation between the probability to be killed and the belief in god :pmost definitely there is.in other words:
dangerous environment makes you maybe believing more in god hoping it will save you.and belief could be the direct cause of the killing, IE kill the unbeliever.

[Zephyr]

It's hard to spot atheists, in communities that threaten them.
You could call them crypto-atheists.

[Sock puppet path]

Saudi King wants monotheisms to unite to defeat atheism (http://www.secularism.org.uk/93039.html)

good dog:D

[lightgigantic]

Saudi King wants monotheisms to unite to defeat atheism (http://www.secularism.org.uk/93039.html)

good dog:D
while there is an innuendo of violence from the journalist, you don't see any direct quotations from King Abdullah to confirm it - so I guess the score still stands at nil
:shrug:

[SnakeLord]

Is there an overall point somewhere in this thread? Nobody likes killing atheists? What?

[S.A.M.]

The point is I was trying to look for statistics re: another thread and could not find any, so I started a thread about it.

[Myles]

I haven't any statistics but I believe apostates can get a riugh time in some Islamic countries. It's not necessary to be an atheist; it's enough to convert to another faith.

Outcry: This is typical of how non-muslims interpret the Koran, which is all about peace and love. Sadly, it's how many Muslims interpret the Koran but, as we all know, they are not proper Muslims.

[S.A.M.]

I haven't any statistics but I believe .

Thanks

[Nasor]

it is very unlikely, but not impossible. Because atheists having no reason to believe in fantasies, so therefore can act the part of a theist without fear of retribution, thus surviving.

Exactly - in an atheist was seriously threatened because of their atheism, they would surely just pretend to be a theist. Why not?

[Michael]

Saudi King wants monotheisms to unite to defeat atheism (http://www.secularism.org.uk/93039.html)

good dog:D

"I ask representatives of all the monotheistic religions to meet with their brothers in faith," Abdullah told delegates to a seminar on "Dialogue Among Civilizations between Japan and the Islamic World,"


That's interesting as the vast majority of Japanese are not monotheistic. I wonder what the Japanese thought of the whole thing?

When the King visited the Vatican recently, the pope asked if he would consider allowing the building of a church in Saudi Arabia to accommodate some of the 800,000 Catholics in the country. The King is now reported to have turned this request down.

typical hypocrite.

[lepustimidus]

Given that of all the religions, Muslims hold atheists in the lowest regard, I wouldn't be surprised if atheists had a hard time living in theocratic Islamic shitholes.

[lepustimidus]

Thanks

Funny. You never seemed this keen for statistics regarding your complaints of the West. For example, the 'mistreatment' of the poor old Muslims in Europe and America.

[PsychoticEpisode]

Exactly - if an atheist was seriously threatened because of their atheism, they would surely just pretend to be a theist. Why not?

Because none of it means anything to me, I'd convert to any religion to save my hide. I wonder what Darwin would say about that?

Theoretically, one can imagine a billion people waking up one day and renouncing their religion only to find out that they were all really atheists anyway.

[Michael]

Exactly - if an atheist was seriously threatened because of their atheism, they would surely just pretend to be a theist. Why not?My Iranian buddy Reza was Muslim but became atheist while living in Japan. Anyway, he told me that if he went back to Iran then he would HAVE to pretend to be Muslim. At the very least life would be made difficult, maybe impossible. And at the worse, someone may kill him.

Also, I would like to note that my Baptist friend once told me an Atheist who visited their house was the reason why their dog had a still birth (their dog breeders). God was warning them not to let that person come back to their house and not to be friends with him. OH, and my buddy also asked me not to ever mention anything to his family that I don't believe in God.

Michael

[PsychoticEpisode]

My Iranian buddy Reza was Muslim but became atheist while living in Japan. Anyway, he told me that if he went back to Iran then he would HAVE to pretend to be Muslim. At the very least life would be made difficult, maybe impossible. And at the worse, someone may kill him.


How many more are there one can wonder? Its like Aryan looking Jews pretending to be German during the 40's. You do what it takes unless you desire martyrdom. Is this one of those things where God eventually sends you to hell for not dying for Him when you have the chance?

[iceaura]

The point is I was trying to look for statistics re: another thread and could not find any, so I started a thread about it. I have never seen a reliable source of statistics about the prevalence of atheistic worldviews in any country that punished them.

How would anyone collect them ?

[Arsalan]

Hey SAM, can you provide us with some stats on the number of people killed by Atheist governments and endeavours in the last century alone? I think China and Russia should be good for about +60 million. Add to that some stuff like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Should be interesting if you can find the stats.

[S.A.M.]

Arsalan: not in this thread, I am still waiting for any statistics on atheists killed for their (lack of) beliefs.

My Iranian buddy Reza was Muslim but became atheist while living in Japan. Anyway, he told me that if he went back to Iran then he would HAVE to pretend to be Muslim. At the very least life would be made difficult, maybe impossible. And at the worse, someone may kill him.

Also, I would like to note that my Baptist friend once told me an Atheist who visited their house was the reason why their dog had a still birth (their dog breeders). God was warning them not to let that person come back to their house and not to be friends with him. OH, and my buddy also asked me not to ever mention anything to his family that I don't believe in God.

Michael

Finally. Could Reza provide you with figures about the last atheists killed in Iran? How many? When?

[lepustimidus]

Why can't Arsalan derail this thread? You do it all the time. :shrug:

[geeser]

Hey SAM, can you provide us with some stats on the number of people killed by Atheist governments and endeavours in the last century alone? I think China and Russia should be good for about +60 million. Add to that some stuff like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Should be interesting if you can find the stats.what atheist governments are those, theres never been any.
China and Russia are/were communist, or is it you think religion equals capitalism. lol
People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

this is a common mistake made by theists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe atheism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

the first thing we should note is there is an automatic and almost unconscious assumption made by these theists that their religion is somehow equivalent with captialism.

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to have communistic or socialistic views while being a theist and it isn't at all wrong to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism, which is a combination often found among objectivists and libertarians.
their existence alone demonstrates, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

is Christianity opposed to communism? No, the opposite, actually. There is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for capitalism, now is there.

quite a bit of what Jesus said supports many of the of socialism and even communism. http://latter-rain.com/general/commu.htm
He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

basic communism states to hold all property in common rather than privately, is practiced by numerous Christian communities now and throughout history. references to it can be found in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35 "With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. "
The similarity to Marx's principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" should be obvious.

and here again in Acts:

Acts 5:1-11 "But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. "Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!" Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

The young men came and wrapped up his body, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you and your husband sold the land for such and such a price." And she said, "Yes, that was the price." Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things."

their deaths served as an example to all the others of what would happen if they, too, held back profits for themselves instead of giving everything to the community.
so we can see that this was the first christian commune(ist) society.

so please lets get away from this silly reference to atheism and communism being the same, all religions are basically communist.

[S.A.M.]

Were the communists believers in God?

Society of the Godless (Общество безбожников in Russian); other names include Союз воинствующих безбожников (The Union of Belligerent Atheists or The League of the Militant Godless[1]) and Союз безбожников (The Union of the Godless), was a mass volunteer antireligious organization of Soviet workers and others in 1925-1947. It "consisted of Party members, members of the Komsomol youth movement, workers and army veterans"

The League was a "nominally independent organization established by the Communist Party to promote atheism." It published newspapers, journals, and other materials that lampooned religion; it sponsored lectures and films; it organized demonstrations and parades; it set up antireligious museums; and it led a concerted effort to persuade Soviet citizens that religious beliefs and practices were "wrong" and harmful, and that good citizens ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview

[Nasor]

Arsalan: not in this thread, I am still waiting for any statistics on atheists killed for their (lack of) beliefs.

As was pointed out, there aren't likely to be many because most atheists would simply pretend to be theists if threatened with death. Most middle eastern countries still officially have the death penalty for anyone who becomes an atheist. The result is that when someone becomes an atheist, they don't advertise it.

[Oli]

As was pointed out, there aren't likely to be many because most atheists would simply pretend to be theists if threatened with death.

Most?
You have figures?
I bloody wouldn't.

[Nasor]

Most?
You have figures?
I bloody wouldn't.
You mean if your choices were to pretent to believe in a god or be killed, you would choose to die? If so, I admire your commitment to honesty - even if I think you're insane. But even if you really would rather die than predent to believe in a god (which frankly I doubt), I suspect the vast majority of atheists wouldn’t share your convictions.

[Oli]

Then they're not actually atheists are they?
They're just people who are too sodding lazy to have a belief...
Death before hypocrisy!
(Just wait for the first atheist suicide bombers to come along)

[geeser]

Were the communists believers in God?which god are you referring too. there are over 2850. not including the Hindu gods, if you mean did they follow a doctrine, then yes.
However, they are no different to you, in regard to non-belief of gods, or do you follow every one. Are you a communist?.

[geeser]

Then they're not actually atheists are they?
They're just people who are too sodding lazy to have a belief...
Death before hypocrisy!
(Just wait for the first atheist suicide bombers to come along)Don't hold your breathe on that, lol. Atheists don't hold beliefs, it is the whole point of atheism, they lack belief in gods. Hence why they can play act, to survive.
It would only be hypocrisy if the had beliefs, and went against them.

[iceaura]

I am still waiting for any statistics on atheists killed for their (lack of) beliefs. There are no such statistics.

It would be easier to count theists willing to kill an atheist for their lack of belief, as a percentage of the theists in the world.

[Oli]

Don't hold your breathe on that, lol.
Yeah? I'm pretty close to doing it myself sometimes.

Atheists don't hold beliefs,
Ooops incorrect! Of course atheists have beliefs...

it is the whole point of atheism, they lack belief in gods.
Exactly. Atheists lack belief in gods, not in what's the right or wrong thing to do.

Hence why they can play act, to survive.
Or get a point across VERY forcefully...

It would only be hypocrisy if the had beliefs, and went against them.
Or even maybe: NOT having a belief in gods and behaving as if you did?

[geeser]

Yeah? I'm pretty close to doing it myself sometimes.
Ooops incorrect! Of course atheists have beliefs...being facetious, you knew what I meant.
What beliefs are you referring too.
an atheist has an objective knowledge, but beliefs are subjective.
Exactly. Atheists lack belief in gods, not in what's the right or wrong thing to do.lol, but in order to survive, a whole new game emerges.Or get a point across VERY forcefully...lol, if being forceful gets them killed it defeats the object.Or even maybe: NOT having a belief in gods and behaving as if you did?thats not hypocrisy, thats a survival strategy.

[Oli]

What beliefs are you referring too.
Sets of personal principles maybe?
Have you no particular beliefs you'd risk death for?

lol, if being forceful gets them killed it defeats the object.
No, it doesn't necessarily. One person may make the point strongly enough that the rest of his "group" survives...

thats not hypocrisy, thats a survival strategy.
So your atheism isn't strongly held?
You'd pay lip service to religion?
Where WOULD you draw the line when it comes to conformity's sake?

[Michael]

How many more are there one can wonder?Probably not very many. Reza said Iranians are religious. Which is why he wishes they were Xian, as then they'd be just like "Europeans". Anyway, it's not to say he is not a patriot. He also told me that if America attacked his country he would have to return home and defend Iran.

Anyway, yes there probably are a small number of athiests but most likely not many. (Although to tell you the truth who would know? I'd guess more people would be Baha'i or Zoroastrian or something like this than be atheist in such a religous country?


Michael

[Michael]

Finally. Could Reza provide you with figures about the last atheists killed in Iran? How many? When?You know, I asked Reza to come to this site. He said, man, I don't want to talk about religion and then insinuated I have some "issues" for doing so.

So, to tell you the truth, I really don't talk too much religion with Reza anymore. I think I was starting to really irritate him. Not just because of my direct questions but also because I "don't / can't really 'get it' " - or according to him anyway. Why have the argument I say, so I don't really bother him with too much of that stuff.

NOTE: I also made a BIG mistake of saying Saddam may have kind of been a good person in that he may have been looking out for Iraq's best interests. Needless to say I don't talk about Politics or Religion anymore with Reza. That's probably why they have these internet sites - I mean, remember when Kadark flew off the handle ...

[Michael]

As was pointed out, there aren't likely to be many because most atheists would simply pretend to be theists if threatened with death. Most middle eastern countries still officially have the death penalty for anyone who becomes an atheist. The result is that when someone becomes an atheist, they don't advertise it.That's right.

How many people were specifically killed in Communist countries for being religious? Are there even stats on that? I don't think "being religous" was a reason for the death penalty, even on the books - usually may have been a reason for "reeducation".


But anyway, my Chinese buddy told me his family (after 5 years of reeducation) said prayers to General Mao before dinner. I'd say that's a religion in my view. I mean, CoS don't have a God but they are religous.

[PsychoticEpisode]

But anyway, my Chinese buddy told me his family (after 5 years of reeducation) said prayers to General Mao before dinner. I'd say that's a religion in my view.

No, remember Nasor's earlier quote:
As was pointed out, there aren't likely to be many because most atheists would simply pretend to be theists if threatened with death.

Adapt and stay alive. Pretending in this case doesn't automatically make you a theist unless you think Mao is god.

[S.A.M.]

Adapt and stay alive. Pretending in this case doesn't automatically make you a theist unless you think Mao is god.

So who died that they were thinking this way? When was the last time it happened?

[S.A.M.]

which god are you referring too. there are over 2850. not including the Hindu gods, if you mean did they follow a doctrine, then yes.
However, they are no different to you, in regard to non-belief of gods, or do you follow every one. Are you a communist?.

So the doctrine they were following was promoting atheism and science? How do you explain that? Why were they promoting atheism in a manner similar to atheists on this site?

[PsychoticEpisode]

So who died that they were thinking this way? When was the last time it happened?

It is written that a few thousand years ago a global flood took out the entire human race sans the 8 people who played it smart.:shrug:;)

[S.A.M.]

Hmm so atheists today are afeared of something that happened a few thousand years ago? Okay.

[PsychoticEpisode]

Hmm so atheists today are afeared of something that happened a few thousand years ago? Okay.

Que? Do they look it? Theists on the other hand......

[S.A.M.]

So no atheists are being killed for their beliefs?

[PsychoticEpisode]

Belief in what?

[S.A.M.]

atheos, of course. What else? :confused:

[iceaura]

So no atheists are being killed for their beliefs? As pointed out, that's hard to say.

In the past forty years or so, somewhere between 0 and 10 million people have been killed for not believing in a particular God, depending on how you count these things and what you mean by a God (does Mao count? Stalin? North Korea's recently acquired Deity ?) Whether any of them were atheists killed for their atheism somehow is a matter of mind reading and definition, not statistics.

[S.A.M.]

One could also say that they are killed by those who do not believe in their God. Is that right?

[iceaura]

ne could also say that they are killed by those who do not believe in their God. Is that right? Sometimes - again, with lots of mindreading and making a few assumptions.

[Zephyr]

As with Muslims, it's only the extremist atheists that make the news :D

[geeser]

So the doctrine they were following was promoting atheism and science? How do you explain that?Wrong on both counts, they were just another form of religion. Acting as a government. just like Islamic, countries the similarities between the two are uncanny. Why do you think saddams idol was stalin. Why were they promoting atheism in a manner similar to atheists on this site?Where does it say in the communist manifesto to promote atheism?. All Marx said was that religion was the opium of the masses, and all that happened was they swapped one for another.
Any extremely dogmatic beliefs like communism are at least 99.9% similar to any religious beliefs.
There are atheist, in all forms of government, they are not exclusive to communism.
I've not come across atheist on this site or any other that are openly promoting atheism,
if stating the facts, and giving incite into what is real and what is not is promoting atheism,
then I'm a Dutchman,
oops! nu heb ik het gedaan, ga ik het Nederlands moeten spreken, van nu af aan.(translation: oops now look what I've done, I'll have to speak dutch from now on)
Just kidding, lol.

[iceaura]

All Marx said was that religion was the opium of the masses, A much misunderstood quote. Opium was not the evil addictive waste then that it is now. It was a balm, one of the few anesthetics available, something people with bad teeth or painful diseases were very grateful for - if they could pay for it. It wasn't that cheap. The masses were largely denied that comfort, one of the many sharp and ugly distinctions of class in Marx's day.

A distinction that is coming back - anesthesia for stitching wounds, abscessed teeth, corneal scratches, handling temporary healing times of pain, is available only by prescription, and doctors are being priced out of the range of the poor in the US.

Marx did not spend much time on theistic speculation, and even if his undermining of a social hierarchy closely identified with the local religion could not help but throw doubt on the religion as well, subsequent developments have proven that communism and even Marxism is perfectly compatible with Christianity, Judiaism, and I think Islam.

[S.A.M.]

Wrong on both counts, they were just another form of religion. Acting as a government. just like Islamic, countries the similarities between the two are uncanny. Why do you think saddams idol was stalin. Where does it say in the communist manifesto to promote atheism?. All Marx said was that religion was the opium of the masses, and all that happened was they swapped one for another.
Any extremely dogmatic beliefs like communism are at least 99.9% similar to any religious beliefs.
There are atheist, in all forms of government, they are not exclusive to communism.
I've not come across atheist on this site or any other that are openly promoting atheism,
if stating the facts, and giving incite into what is real and what is not is promoting atheism,
then I'm a Dutchman,
oops! nu heb ik het gedaan, ga ik het Nederlands moeten spreken, van nu af aan.(translation: oops now look what I've done, I'll have to speak dutch from now on)
Just kidding, lol.

Perhaps you should take a look at how the Stalinists were doing it. :)

[lightgigantic]

Perhaps you should take a look at how the Stalinists were doing it. :)
or mao china
or Khmer rogue
:o

[geeser]

Perhaps you should take a look at how the Stalinists were doing it. :)Yes they were actively promoting there god, just as the Christians and the Muslims do. Whats your point.
It is why they were called Stalinist's.
It's exactly what Despots do, promote themselves as god's and there people worship them as such.

[S.A.M.]

Yes they were actively promoting there god, just as the Christians and the Muslims do. Whats your point.
It is why they were called Stalinist's.
It's exactly what Despots do, promote themselves as god's and there people worship them as such.


So if someone "lampooned religion; sponsored lectures and films; organized demonstrations and parades; set up antireligious museums; and led a concerted effort to persuade citizens that religious beliefs and practices were "wrong" and harmful, and that good citizens ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview", they are practising a religion?

[geeser]

So if someone "lampooned religion; sponsored lectures and films; organized demonstrations and parades; set up antireligious museums; and led a concerted effort to persuade citizens that religious beliefs and practices were "wrong" and harmful, and that good citizens ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview", they are practising a religion?what! you mean, just like the Christians do to every other religion, and the Muslims do to every other religion etc etc.... yes correct, after all you are an atheist to every other religion bar yours, aren't you.
Yes like all the other religions they were following there gods wishes.
It's what the indoctrinated/gullible do.

[S.A.M.]

what! you mean, just like the Christians do to every other religion, and the Muslims do to every other religion etc etc.... yes correct, after all you are an atheist to every other religion bar yours, aren't you.
Yes like all the other religions they were following there gods wishes.
It's what the indoctrinated/gullible do.

Hmm so all the people who lampoon the religious, say that religion is wrong and harmful and that people ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview are all indoctrinated and gullible? Thats interesting.:D

[geeser]

Hmm so all the people who lampoon the religious, say that religion is wrong and harmful and that people ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview are all indoctrinated and gullible? Thats interesting.: lol, if you wish to read it that way, thats fine, but you cant be indoctrinated into an atheistic world view, or a scientific one, they are the default positions.
However you can be to following a god/gods, even if they only think they are gods, like Stalin, pol pot etc...

You are funny, lol.

[S.A.M.]

lol, if you wish to read it that way, thats fine, but you cant be indoctrinated into an atheistic world view, or a scientific one, they are the default positions.
However you can be to following a god/gods, even if they only think they are gods, like Stalin, pol pot etc...

You are funny, lol.

You're clearly indoctrinated. Very sad. ;)

[PsychoticEpisode]

You're clearly indoctrinated. Very sad. ;)

There very clearly was no other retort for you to exercise in this instance.

[geeser]

Sets of personal principles maybe?
Have you no particular beliefs you'd risk death for?No, however I would risk death to save another.
No, it doesn't necessarily. One person may make the point strongly enough that the rest of his "group" survives...And he might get them all killed, the sensible thing is to keep quiet.So your atheism isn't strongly held?My atheism is the default position, it doesn't need strength or conviction, it's not a belief.You'd pay lip service to religion?Yes why not, I wouldn't be committing any sin in doing so, would I.
I don't adhere to fantasies.Where WOULD you draw the line when it comes to conformity's sake?If I had to conform to certain rituals I would, it would not effect me in any way would it. I don't hold religion as truth.

[(Q)]

Perhaps you should take a look at how the Stalinists were doing it.

You're statement completely nullifies this thread and demonstrates it's creation was only for the demonstration of your unbounded stupidity. Your religion has turned your brain to mush.

[S.A.M.]

You're statement completely nullifies this thread and demonstrates it's creation was only for the demonstration of your unbounded stupidity. Your religion has turned your brain to mush.

Is that how the Stalinists do it?:p

[spidergoat]

You meant the first nation to put something in orbit?

[S.A.M.]

Yeah, we should all adopt their tactics. A little blood sacrifice here and there should not be amiss.

[Zephyr]

Blood sacrifice is an important part of many religions. In fact it still has its uses (http://www.givelife2.org/donor/faq.asp).

[OilIsMastery]

Atheists kill more Atheists than any other religion e.g. Nazi Germany vs. Soviet Russia.

[PsychoticEpisode]

Atheists kill more Atheists than any other religion e.g. Nazi Germany vs. Soviet Russia.

Your statement is ludicrous but suppose it was true, then those atheists you speak of still have a long way to go if they ever hope to catch the theist vs theist total.

[OilIsMastery]

Your statement is ludicrous but suppose it was true, then those atheists you speak of still have a long way to go if they ever hope to catch the theist vs theist total.
Atheists have murdered more innocent people than Islam and Christianity combined. The biggest murderers in world history are without exception Atheists: Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

[PsychoticEpisode]

Really!!! They may have been murderers in your eyes and they only killed atheists you say? Which brings up the question : who is more innocent? Theists or atheists?

[Arsalan]

Funny how suddenly people are claiming communists werent atheists. OR that if they killed people they didnt do it because they were atheists but for other political factors. But God help you if you try to claim the same thing for theists...

Double standard hypocrisy

[iceaura]

Some communists have been atheists, others haven't. Stalin found it necessary to launch a full scale campaign against theism - hardly a sign that his subjects were atheists, when they murdered the kulaks, say.

Pol Pot's inner circle was mostly atheist, and killed many in Cambodia especially emptying out the refugee concentrations in the cities. The US Air Force was mostly theist, and killed many in Cambodia driving them into the refugee concentrations in the cities. Which killed more ? How many of the actual killers were atheistic or theistic ? How do you classify animist tribesmen in this ?

Mindreading of this nature is foolish. The biggest and most significant mass murdering of humans in the past thousand years was done by Europeans, mostly theists, in the colonization of the New World and the development of the slave trade in Africa. They were ably assisted in the latter mass murdering by the resident theists in North Africa and Arabia. But how many of these humans were atheist ? Hard to say. How many were killed in the name of the Deity involved, for reasons of theism ? Again hard to say.

Meanwhile we have people trying to argue that Hitler was atheist, that the theist - enabled famines of India don't count the same as the atheist- enabled ones of China, that people who worship Leaders and light candles to their pictures and read their books of Laws and Wisdoms are strictly theists, and so forth.

It's a vain endeavor, this mindreading stuff. Much better to go by what can be known - how do the murderers themselves justify their murders? And here we find theism playing a much more prominent role than atheism.

[pavlosmarcos]

Atheists have murdered more innocent people than Islam and Christianity combined. The biggest murderers in world history are without exception Atheists: Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.And you forgot to mention, Tamerlane, Ivan the Terrible, Robespierre, Francois Duvalier, Nicolae Ceausescu, Idi Amin, torquemada, saddam hussain, constantine XI, oliver cromwell. etc... all were despots including yours, some were (lutheran(Hitler) or otherwise) catholics, some muslim, some neither.
You need to look up what a despot is, what there religious Affiliation is, isn't really relevant now is it.
Funny how suddenly people are claiming communists werent atheists. OR that if they killed people they didnt do it because they were atheists but for other political factors. But God help you if you try to claim the same thing for theists...
Nobody is claiming that the likes of pol pot and stalin weren't atheist. however them being atheist does not make all atheist communists, thats like saying all catholics are evil killers because torquemada was, or all lutheran catholics are killers of jews just because Hitler was. etc... do you see how ludicrous it sound, there cant be any atheists who are capitalist, with your logic can there, but is that the case, in reality.
Take a look at Geezers post 32 on page 2 and then think about what you stated, you may realize where you err then.

[synthesizer-patel]

Funny how suddenly people are claiming communists werent atheists. OR that if they killed people they didnt do it because they were atheists but for other political factors. But God help you if you try to claim the same thing for theists...

Double standard hypocrisy

That's because its easy to prove it with theists:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2005/10_october/06/bush.shtml

[Arsalan]

Ok dont call them communists. Call them atheists. That sure makes atheists look good...

/sarcasm

Add on top of that people like Milton Friedman and his economic theory which is the main cause of economic turmoil in many 3rd world countries and now Iraq...

[Myles]

Some people kill other people, period.

[S.A.M.]

Some communists have been atheists, others haven't. Stalin found it necessary to launch a full scale campaign against theism - hardly a sign that his subjects were atheists, when they murdered the kulaks, say.

Hmm theists don't kill theists? Genghis Khan killed Muslims, Christians, Buddhists and Shamanists. So did Taimur (in addition to destroying temples and mosques, that is).

So no one is killing atheists, then? Only theists?

[Cris]

SAM,

So no one is killing atheists, then? Only theists?Nah, everyone deep down is really an atheist at heart, they are just too terrified to admit it for fear of not being included with the in-crowd.

[S.A.M.]

SAM,

Nah, everyone deep down is really an atheist at heart, they are just too terrified to admit it for fear of not being included with the in-crowd.

Its just interesting to me that with all the supposed prejudice against atheists, there really is no one who cares enough to actually kill them. They are probably the only minority to experience bias without violence (see for example, any genocide directed against minorities). At least, the lack of any statistics would appear to indicate that.

Which would mean that being an atheist, whether to one God or all, is statistically more likely to lead to violence. How about that? :eek:

[Cris]

SAM,

Its just interesting to me that with all the supposed prejudice against atheists, there really is no one who cares enough to actually kill them. They are probably the only minority to experience bias without violence (see for example, any genocide directed against minorities). At least, the lack of any statistics would appear to indicate that.The problem is that you can't easily tell an atheist from their appearance or accent, so unless they admit to their atheism, they can't be easily identified so they can be killed.

Now we know Muslims are told to hate atheists so in those communities no intelligent atheist is going to admit their perspective, are they? So there is no way to know how many real atheists there are in the world.

Which would mean that being an atheist, whether to one God or all, is statistically more likely to lead to violence. How about that? Huh? You mean if an atheist openly admits their position then the theists are likely to him him/her?

[Arsalan]

Now we know Muslims are told to hate atheists so in those communities no intelligent atheist is going to admit their perspective, are they?

Are they now... Quite how many Muslims are told to hate Atheists and where exactly...

[S.A.M.]

SAM,

Now we know Muslims are told to hate atheists so in those communities no intelligent atheist is going to admit their perspective, are they? So there is no way to know how many real atheists there are in the world.



Hmm if you statistically compare athiests who killed Muslims and Muslims who killed atheists, which number is higher?

[PsychoticEpisode]

Hmm if you statistically compare athiests who killed Muslims and Muslims who killed atheists, which number is higher?

When a murderous atheist bent on furthering the cause of atheism is on the loose:

If one maintains atheist status then their chances of not being killed are greater.

If one assumes it is easier for an atheist to become a theist while in the face of imminent danger then the number of atheists killed by atheists is negatively affected (lessened).

If one assumes it is easier for theists to become atheists while in the face of imminent danger then the number of atheists killed by atheists is also negatively affected (lessened).

A person's best chance for survival in this situation would be the willingness to become atheists in a last ditch effort to appease their potential killer and for atheists to remain atheists for the same reason.

[OilIsMastery]

Nicolae Ceausescu, Idi Amin
If they are Theists then I'm Cleopatra.

[orcot]

there are cases of discriminations against atheist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists)

Further on the subject I find theism is a rather easy solution

[OilIsMastery]

Most discrimination and persecution in the world is against Theists (Christians and Jews in particular).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_jews

http://www.persecution.com/

I find theism is a rather easy solution
I find atheism is a rather difficult solution (because it is ridiculous and logically absurd).

[S.A.M.]

*some stuff*

So which one is greater?

[orcot]

I find atheism is a rather difficult solution (because it is ridiculous and logically absurd).


What you think of the statement love is god, but god isn't love.

I think the whole religion ID apart of explaining things like thunder and earthquakes. Is really yust based on love for your partner, etc.
You have to admit god acts a bid like a women with the all mighty plan who actualy a secret. It actually reminds me of a joke of oscar wild when 2 guy's meet one is looking sad so the other one asked what's the matter. And the other guy responds I don't understand my women whereupon the first guy replies you don't have to understand then you have to love them.

Further on religion had it's merrits in the old days when the first the first society's where formed aftherall the guy who runed things could sell his position better using fancy lights and a ticket for a eternal aftherlife then yust a threat abouth pocking his stick where the sun doesn't shine. It's yust better diplomasy.


Logical spoken to get back on that there is offcourse the omnipotents or infinitie, stating that god could not have been infinite or he didn't create us aftherall how could something that's infinite create something finite, even if you infinitly split something infinite you still have infinite.

[SnakeLord]

Most discrimination and persecution in the world is against Theists (Christians and Jews in particular).

http://www.snakeystew.com/lolpie.gif

I find atheism is a rather difficult solution (because it is ridiculous and logically absurd).

You're talking out of your ass.

[PsychoticEpisode]

I can't imagine that there have been too many instances throughout history when an atheist has killed anyone, theist or otherwise, in the name of religion. So having one less reason to kill should automatically affect the number of atheists killed by atheists.

Do atheists kill atheists in the name of God? Oxymoronic way of saying can't happen.

Do theists kill atheists in the name of God? Sure they do.

[S.A.M.]

I can't imagine that there have been too many instances throughout history when an atheist has killed anyone, theist or otherwise, in the name of religion. So having one less reason to kill should automatically affect the number of atheists killed by atheists.

Do atheists kill atheists in the name of God? Oxymoronic way of saying can't happen.

Do theists kill atheists in the name of God? Sure they do.

Plenty of athiests have killed in the name of rejecting God. After all, as atheists like to say, even theists are atheists to some God! ;)

[PsychoticEpisode]

Plenty of athiests have killed in the name of rejecting God.

Look closely, I said atheists would not kill other atheists in the name of God. Your thread title is about who is killing more atheists.

Its obvious you want to talk about atheists killing theists.

[Simon Anders]

Are there any statistics as to where atheists are most likely to be actually killed for lack of belief? I'm not referring to laws (we have anti-homosexuality laws in India which everyone ignores, for instance), but actual violence against atheists.
You could argue that 'western' conflicts with communists were religious wars against atheists. Certainly much of middle american viewed the Vietnam was as such. Support for the war against the USSR in Afghanistan was couched in these terms for many and by many. Many fascist regimes based some of their abuse, torture and killing of leftists along religious lines, ie. that these were godless atheists undermining tradtional religious values. This latter being true of course since many tradtional values espoused by, for example, the Catholic church were challenged by godless leftists (and god believing leftists also, of course) in Latin America. So inter society and intra-society killings of atheists has taken place. I am afraid I cannot say who has killed the most and I am way too lazy to try to find out.

And in case any should assume I support the killing of godless lefties, well, I don't. Or any combination of atheist theist left and right, though I suppose I get along best with both theist and atheist left. I can't quite climb in the tiny box the theist right wants me to climb into. I like moving my arms, legs and genitals.

[iceaura]

Plenty of athiests have killed in the name of rejecting God. For example ?

Certainly the Stalinist and Maoist murders don't count here.

And we aren't going to be confusing religion with deity again, of course.

So - - -
Hmm if you statistically compare athiests who killed Muslims and Muslims who killed atheists, which number is higher? Interesting question. Atheists are hard to find in the vicinity of powerful Muslims who can kill easily, for some reason.

[S.A.M.]

And yet, there seem to be no dead atheists and plenty of dead Muslims, hmm?

[iceaura]

And yet, there seem to be no dead atheists and plenty of dead Muslims, hmm? We've established the problems connected with seeing atheists. And besides, it depends on where you look as well.

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

The Christians and Jews are doing more killing than dying, Muslims the opposite, these days - but they have been more tolerant of atheists, or at least curbed in their oppressions in recent generations, and have reaped the benefits of secular curiosity and exploration. Among the benefits, superior weaponry.

[spidergoat]

Stalin, Pol Pot, et. all. killed their political enemies, just like the Catholic church did for centuries. The Kmer Rouge did not officially object to religion, and the Russian following of the Russian Orthodox church runs about 70%, one should assume that hasn't changed much since USSR times, only the ability to practice it in public has changed.

[S.A.M.]

The Khmer Rouge used to force Muslims to eat pork (if they refused, they were killed), defrocked monks and killed people who were caught praying. I'd say that constitutes an "official objection" to religion.

Before 1975 the Khmer Rouge tolerated the activities of the community of Buddhist monks, or sangha, in the liberated areas in order to win popular support. This changed abruptly after the fall of Phnom Penh. The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks, regarded by the regime as social parasites, were defrocked and forced into labor brigades. Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails. Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying or expressing religious sentiments in other ways were often killed. The Christian and Muslim communities also were persecuted. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was completely razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim leaders were executed.

[iceaura]

The Khmer Rouge used to force Muslims to eat pork (if they refused, they were killed), defrocked monks and killed people who were caught praying. I'd say that constitutes an "official objection" to religion. Some religions, anyway. The ones that got in the way of following the Leader.

Now, about theism, atheism, and their role in killings - - -

[S.A.M.]

Some religions, anyway. The ones that got in the way of following the Leader.

Now, about theism, atheism, and their role in killings - - -

So Muslims not eating pork gets in the way of following the leader? A Pig, I presume. Like the statues that had to be defaced and thrown in the rivers and the people caught praying who just had to be eliminated.

[spidergoat]

The Khmer Rouge used to force Muslims to eat pork (if they refused, they were killed), defrocked monks and killed people who were caught praying. I'd say that constitutes an "official objection" to religion.

Muslims have historically reacted the same way to other religions. The Khmer would kill you just for wearing glasses or picking berries. They aren't a good example of atheists killing in the name of atheism.

[S.A.M.]

Muslims have historically reacted the same way to other religions. The Khmer would kill you just for wearing glasses or picking berries. They aren't a good example of atheists killing in the name of atheism.

Yeah, clearly a lack of belief means one can randomly pick attributes to kill for.

Frequently the Khmer Rouge ''killed people by cutting out their livers with a knife. . . . Often they ate the livers. . . . Babies were thrown up in the air and came down on bayonets.'' To save bullets, the Khmer Rouge murdered innocents by practicing what they called vay choul, which consisted of ''beating people with the back of a hoe.''

Geez Louise.

[spidergoat]

Not at all, they had a very strong faith in the righteousness of their political ideology, of which the punishment of some forms of religion was but a small part.

[S.A.M.]

Not at all, they had a very strong faith in the righteousness of their political ideology, of which the punishment of some forms of religion was but a small part.

Sounds like just about every other militant atheist out there. A man with an ideology who happens to hate religion.

[iceaura]

Sounds like just about every other militant atheist out there. A man with an ideology who happens to hate religion. That word again. The devout see hatred everywhere, for some reason.

Frequently the Khmer Rouge ''killed people by cutting out their livers with a knife. . . . Often they ate the livers. . . . Babies were thrown up in the air and came down on bayonets.'' To save bullets, the Khmer Rouge murdered innocents by practicing what they called vay choul, which consisted of ''beating people with the back of a hoe.''
”
Geez Louise. Sounds like Rwanda. Except Rwanda was more brutal, and the stories were better verified.

And instead of having been bombed into psychosis by theists, the Rwandans were the theists. Their psychosis was home grown.

[S.A.M.]

That word again. The devout see hatred everywhere, for some reason.

Believe you me, I don't just see the hatred, I feel it and experience it. Give an atheist some anonymity and he really lets you know what he thinks.

Sounds like Rwanda. Except Rwanda was more brutal, and the stories were better verified.

And instead of having been bombed into psychosis by theists, the Rwandans were the theists. Their psychosis was home grown.

Who imports their psychosis? I'd say the Rwandans were an excellent example of violently rejecting another's beliefs.

[Simon Anders]

And yet, there seem to be no dead atheists and plenty of dead Muslims, hmm?
But Latin America. But dead North Vietnamese or dead North Koreans. Certainly part of US foreign policy has been based on a hatred of atheism and religious rhetoric and support was a part of wars against atheistic regimes. And also as I said above atheists were also targeted by purportedly Christian regimes in South America. I am not sure if right wing atheists been targeted, but this is neither here nor there.

[S.A.M.]

But Latin America. But dead North Vietnamese or dead North Koreans. Certainly part of US foreign policy has been based on a hatred of atheism and religious rhetoric and support was a part of wars against atheistic regimes. And also as I said above atheists were also targeted by purportedly Christian regimes in South America. I am not sure if right wing atheists been targeted, but this is neither here nor there.

Finally! :p

Yup, absolutely correct. The Cold war was a struggle between atheist "terrorists" on the one hand and the righteous "saviours" on the other. Kudos for being the first one to get it. :thumbsup:

[Simon Anders]

Finally! :p

Yup, absolutely correct. The Cold war was a struggle between atheist "terrorists" on the one hand and the righteous "saviours" on the other. Kudos for being the first one to get it. :thumbsup:
I can't tell if any of the sarcasm is aimed at me. I'm not a fan of either total state socialisms or corporate oligarchies. I think there was a small island in the Pacific that was free of these options, but then someone bought it.

[(Q)]

Finally! :p

Yup, absolutely correct. The Cold war was a struggle between atheist "terrorists" on the one hand and the righteous "saviours" on the other. Kudos for being the first one to get it. :thumbsup:

What an idiot.

When Muslims strap on bombs and kill people while they scream their gods name, it's all politics. But when Communists institute their ideologies, it's all atheism.

What an idiot.

[SnakeLord]

And yet, there seem to be no dead atheists and plenty of dead Muslims, hmm

I think it's quite apparent to most members here that you would like nothing more than to see all atheists dead. The question is, where would you start if you decided to go about killing them? Atheists are not an organised collective, they are merely different people from all different walks of life that happen to not have belief in gods.

When any person goes about killing in large numbers, you'll find some of the dead were atheists. To target atheists specifically would be difficult to accomplish for reasons just mentioned.

[Simon Anders]

What an idiot.

When Muslims strap on bombs and kill people while they scream their gods name, it's all politics. But when Communists institute their ideologies, it's all atheism.

What an idiot.

I thought the point was that atheists seem to feel victimized by theists. But, in fact, it is hard to find large numbers of atheists killed by theists unless you include communists in atheists, which they must be, and notice who actually has killed communists. Christian nations with the support of their mainly atheistic technical classes.

Very few people are ONLY whatever -ism we can strap on to them.

Secular Americans, for example, need to face the fact that the main killers of anyone who could be considered an atheist have been Christians - pretend or otherwise - and that many of these killings, for example, took place in Latin America with the approval and often training and monetary support of the CIA.

We should also note that Christians and atheists, de facto or open ones, were responsible for the destruction of, for example, Native American cultures. You can see seeds of this kind of thinking on Bells thread where otherwise rational people are defending the use of the word 'savages' in relation to South American tribal members and basically supporting Manifest Destiny, yet again.

Atheists never notice that they are just as likely as anyone else to judge another group subhuman - and not just communist atheists - and set up policies that end up being very destructive for these people.

While theists have a magical belief in their religion's ability to make people good, atheists seem to think their atheist has moved them up some evolutionary ladder. A bureaucratic death is still a death. A bureaucratic genocide is still a genocide.

[iceaura]

Believe you me, I don't just see the hatred, I feel it and experience it. Give an atheist some anonymity and he really lets you know what he thinks. Likewise a theist. But assuming that theists one doesn't know are ubiquitously motivated by hatred, in their theism, is hardly supported.

Dawkins, for example, draws no such conclusion from the disturbing hate mail he and every other public atheist receives by the bushel.

Whereas our friend arsalan does, repeatedly on this forum, draw conclusions of hatred from no evidence whatsoever except his own (even erroneous) assumption of atheistic underpinnings to opinions contradicting his.

And IIRC you are on record as describing Dawkins's writings as expressions of his personal hatred.

For example.

Because the assumption of hatred motivating one's opponents, often on little or no evidence, seems far more common among the strongly theistic (and the politically rightwing authoritarian, a possibly confounding correlation) than among others.
Atheists never notice that they are just as likely as anyone else to judge another group subhuman Never ? I would say they notice somewhat more often, on probability, and not from their atheism but from other correlated factors.

[OilIsMastery]

I can't imagine that there have been too many instances throughout history when an atheist has killed anyone, theist or otherwise, in the name of religion.
Ever heard of Joseph Stalin? Mao Zedong? Pol Pot?

[spidergoat]

There haven't been very many atheists killed because there aren't many. It's only been fairly recently that they can reveal themselves without too much recrimination. Stalin, Mao, etc. killed in the name of Socialist Revolution.

[S.A.M.]

I think it's quite apparent to most members here that you would like nothing more than to see all atheists dead. The question is, where would you start if you decided to go about killing them? Atheists are not an organised collective, they are merely different people from all different walks of life that happen to not have belief in gods.

When any person goes about killing in large numbers, you'll find some of the dead were atheists. To target atheists specifically would be difficult to accomplish for reasons just mentioned.

Geez making excuses for lack of dead athiests now? Pathetic.



While theists have a magical belief in their religion's ability to make people good, atheists seem to think their atheist has moved them up some evolutionary ladder. .

Or they could simply refuse to recognise that atheists who kill are doing so inspite of a "lack of belief". And in very many horrendous numbers. Simply bracket whatever ideology they follow into a "religion". Every ideology apparently is a religion, except for the ones followed by those massive forebrainers who think theirs do not qualify.

There haven't been very many atheists killed because there aren't many. It's only been fairly recently that they can reveal themselves without too much recrimination. Stalin, Mao, etc. killed in the name of Socialist Revolution.

Why don't you ask the Chinese how few atheists there are? Or the Russians? or the Cambodians? Just ask them

[Simon Anders]

Or they could simply refuse to recognise that atheists who kill are doing so inspite of a "lack of belief". And in very many horrendous numbers. Simply bracket whatever ideology they follow into a "religion". Every ideology apparently is a religion, except for the ones followed by those massive forebrainers who think theirs do not qualify.

I think the misunderstanding is related to ideas like collateral damage and a hatred of emotions.

In other words 'The West' thinks it is morally superior to kill because one does not really give a shit about those one kills. "Our goal was not to kill them. We realized that many would die and we did not care about this. But our intention was to open markets, make ourselves safe, etc."

If anyone kills or threatens to kill and are angry they are inferior and by nature barbarians, irrational, savages, etc.

[Medicine*Woman]

I thought the point was that atheists seem to feel victimized by theists.
*************
M*W: You pose an interesting argument. I don't feel "victimized" by theists, but I stupidly allowed myself to be victimized by christians when I was one of them. As an atheist, I don't feel I can be victimized anymore by the religious. The unfortunate part of this equation is that christians don't realize they are brainwashed. I guess you could say I was one of the "lucky" christians who became aware of my christian victimization. The religious folk on this forum do not have the capacity to victimize the atheists, because their rants are nothing but ridiculous rhetoric.

[spidergoat]

Why don't you ask the Chinese how few atheists there are? Or the Russians? or the Cambodians? Just ask them

Not that many, less and less are repeating the official line about religion. The actual number of atheists in those countries are very small. Adherents.com says that only 14% of Chinese say they are "irreligious".

[Simon Anders]

*************
M*W: You pose an interesting argument. I don't feel "victimized" by theists, but I stupidly allowed myself to be victimized by christians when I was one of them. As an atheist, I don't feel I can be victimized anymore by the religious. The unfortunate part of this equation is that christians don't realize they are brainwashed. I guess you could say I was one of the "lucky" christians who became aware of my christian victimization. The religious folk on this forum do not have the capacity to victimize the atheists, because their rants are nothing but ridiculous rhetoric.
May I draw the conclusion from this that you believe a higher quality rhetoric could victimize someone?
I think most people do not realize they are brainwashed.

[SnakeLord]

Geez making excuses for lack of dead athiests now? Pathetic

Your stupidity aside, I would contend that - given world religiosity - there will always be a lack of dead atheists in comparison to dead theists - but that was not the focus of what I said or what you asked. Indeed I do believe I ended on a question that might help you answer your own question.

You want to kill atheists, as many as possible. Where do you start?

If you'd like to fuck around a little bit more then let me know, if your question was a serious one perhaps you should take your head out of your rectum and start paying attention? I don't have much time for idiots, regardless to how many idiotic posts they've managed to amass.

[S.A.M.]

So, who kills more atheists? Other atheists. That was a simple one

[spidergoat]

I'm glad you convinced yourself.

[SnakeLord]

So, who kills more atheists? Other atheists. That was a simple one

:bugeye:

Once again kindly answer this question..

"You want to kill atheists, as many as possible. Where do you start?"

Surely it's not a problem to answer, heh Sam?

In either case I don't see where your statement comes from. Other atheists kill more atheists? Where does that come from?

Answer the question Sam...

[Medicine*Woman]

May I draw the conclusion from this that you believe a higher quality rhetoric could victimize someone? I think most people do not realize they are brainwashed.
*************
M*W: I don't know about a "higher quality of rhetoric," but I agree with you that "most people do not realize they are brainwashed."

*************
M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote (FAQ) of the Day:

"Gullible is as gullible does." ~ M*W

[S.A.M.]

:bugeye:

Once again kindly answer this question..

"You want to kill atheists, as many as possible. Where do you start?"

Surely it's not a problem to answer, heh Sam?

In either case I don't see where your statement comes from. Other atheists kill more atheists? Where does that come from?

Answer the question Sam...

When atheists are in power they kill everyone. When they are not in power, they build weapons of mass destruction and kill everyone. They whine about discrimination and when you ask what discrimination they point to a majority exhibiting their religious beliefs in the society they live in. However, when a society declares itself atheist, you'll be killed even if you mumble a prayer in public and they'll burn down and destroy all public displays of religiosity. When they are a minority they whine about persecution and yet cannot locate a single atheist who has been killed for his (lack of) beliefs. But when they are in power, you can count bodies in the millions.

And to top it all they disavow despotic atheists in power as religious, argue that their lack of belief is an epistemologically sound argument and declare that all theists are atheists to Gods other than their own. By that argument, all atheists are only killed by other atheists.

[spidergoat]

When people with uniforms are in power, they kill everyone. Makes just as much sense.

[SnakeLord]

When atheists are in power they kill everyone. When they are not in power, they build weapons of mass destruction and kill everyone.

Curiously absolutely nothing you said answered the question I asked you. Third time lucky perhaps, need I restate it or draw a picture perhaps - they say I'm quite good with MS Paint?

As for your statement quoted, I see little reason to go through the very same thing all over again that has been done with you countless times by countless people. You can continue along your path of ignorance all you want but kindly stop repeating it constantly as if there is anything of merit in it.

However, when a society declares itself atheist, you'll be killed even if you mumble a prayer in public and they'll burn down and destroy all public displays of religiosity.

Verbal flatulence - along with the rest of your rant.

Anyway, once you've got it all off your chest for the thousandth time since March, do try and answer the question.

[iceaura]

When atheists are in power they kill everyone. When they are not in power, they build weapons of mass destruction and kill everyone. They whine about discrimination and when you ask what discrimination they point to a majority exhibiting their religious beliefs in the society they live in. However, when a society declares itself atheist, you'll be killed even if you mumble a prayer in public and they'll burn down and destroy all public displays of religiosity. When they are a minority they whine about persecution and yet cannot locate a single atheist who has been killed for his (lack of) beliefs. But when they are in power, you can count bodies in the millions. Because all it takes is one atheist in power, and the huge bulk of theistic, superstitious, people he commands start obeying his orders to indiscriminate slaughter.

The sheer power of atheism, allowing its possessor to command people's minds in this fashion, is probably a major attraction for evil people - which explains why evil and atheism are so often found conjoined, in the world as seen through theological categories.

Either that, or there's a major delusion involved in all this. We note that the statement "cannot locate a single atheist who has been killed for their (lack of ) belief " is simply false - many have been located, despite their comparative sparsity in the requisite circumstances. So that's a clue.

[Simon Anders]

I just love the irony in the anti-theist positions being strongly taken
by

SNAKELORD
&
MEDICINE WOMAN.

I think that irony is one we can all enjoy and in fact is more fun than this debate.

[MayanArch]

People proclaim Communists to be Athiests because it is part of Communist Law and state policy. In other words, Communists ARE atheists because Communists say so..........not because anyone else has ascribed this to them.

Furthermore, they are militant athiests who go about forwarding policy through violence. Communist governments around the world have killed 98,000,000 people................this is the NKVD's number.....not the Vaticans. :cool: IN case that number washes over you without meaning, let me put it into perspective: To kill 98 million people you would need to wipe out every human living between the Mississipi River and the Atlantic Coast of the United States.

These do not include deaths in wars. These are deaths of people who resisted mandatory collectivization. The numbers are also not made up of political enemies, unless you believe that there were 98 million rich industrialists hanging around. These were the very people Communism was supposed to protect: the common populus of these countries.

A lot of these were persecuted in order to stamp out the influence of religion in Communist countries. A lot of them were not. What is for certain is that atheism was, and is to this day State policy in Communist countries and that all of these governments saw the need to delete any notion that there was an authority above that of the State.

To say that some people in Communism happened to be atheists.....no different than some people in Capitalism happened to be athiest as well........is a complete misunderstanding of how central getting religion out of the way was for the survival of the Communist state. Or to put it more bluntly........it is a blantant lie and a complete miscaracterization of history for the purpose of defending atheists.

It is also completely consistent that a governmental body that asigns no value to a human being beyond that of a worker drone.........really, a beast of burden, a souless animal..........is also primed to commit the murder of 98 million of its own people without batting an eye. Religion in no way guarantees that humans will value the worth of another human.......but at the very least it doesnt devalue it to the stature of a mule.

[spidergoat]

People proclaim Communists to be Athiests because it is part of Communist Law and state policy. In other words, Communists ARE atheists because Communists say so..........not because anyone else has ascribed this to them.

That's what people say, but people aren't atheists just because the government says so. In Russia, people met in secret, and today 70% are Russian Orthodox. Those people didn't suddenly start believing when the USSR fell.

[MayanArch]

That's what people say, but people aren't atheists just because the government says so. In Russia, people met in secret, and today 70% are Russian Orthodox. Those people didn't suddenly start believing when the USSR fell.


Not arguing that fact. The post was in response to the notion/post that athiests dont kill as much as religious people. To the contrary, the numbers are against athiests as the Communists really racked up the count. You would have to add up all 6,000 years of religious wars to maybe.......and thats a big maybe.........come close to 98,000,000 murdered by Communism, in the name of Communism, and as an devout and militant athiest form of government. Communists got to those numbers in just 80 years........maybe not all in the name of athiesm........but definetly proclaiming it as State policy and as a political necessity for the survival of International Communism.

Not all religious people signed up for the slaughters conducted in the Inquisition either. The Spanish Empire ceased to exist....the Inquisition ended just as Soviet Communism came to an end..........and people went back to being religious or atheiests or agnostics.

What is of concearn here is the zealotry practiced by the devout religious or the militant atheiests. ..............call it the "motivated" by their beliefs. I wouldnt condemn the Russian people as a whole for the sins of the Communist State, nor would I do that to the Cubans or Chinese in general..................just as I would not condemn the followers fo Catholic faith for the Inquisition. It is the motivated zealots that are to blame.

[spidergoat]

Communism had alot of enemies, some real, some imagined. That's why they sent so many to prison. It wasn't because of atheism. Communism cannot be characterized as a "militant atheist form of government". Rejecting religion was only a part of it. Religious people killed in the name of religion. Atheists have rarely if ever killed in the name of atheism. There are specific instructions in some religions to kill in various cirmcumstances. Atheism has no such dogma.

[MayanArch]

Communism had alot of enemies, some real, some imagined. That's why they sent so many to prison. It wasn't because of atheism. Communism cannot be characterized as a "militant atheist form of government". Rejecting religion was only a part of it. Religious people killed in the name of religion. Atheists have rarely if ever killed in the name of atheism. There are specific instructions in some religions to kill in various cirmcumstances. Atheism has no such dogma.

If you kill someone in order to stamp out religion because you fear it competes with the supremacy of the state.......you are killing for atheism.

Kill someone to stop them from being religious.....They are still murdered in order to get religion out of the way. Thats killing for atheism, by a state which desires its entire population to be atheist.

What is the difference between killing to force atheism onto a populus, or killing to force God onto a populus. Same thing. Still murder. Both are acts of zealotry.

Furthermore, this repeated itself in all Communists countries without exception. That is pathalogical. Thats zealotry. Thats an undeniable pattern on the part of governments whom claim atheism as state policy.

[Syzygys]

Since through history believers committed most of the crimes, they kill more atheists...

Any other question?

[spidergoat]

Furthermore, nothing about Communism makes people kill for Communism. What happened in Russia had nothing to do with Communism. They were leaders that led with a religious fervor, accomplished by taking the place of the people's inherent religious awe of the previous Czars. Stalin did not implement Communism, he was a totalitarian ruler. They sent anyone away that threatened their hegemony. Nothing about atheism made him do that, in fact Stalin studied at the Orthodox Theological Seminary as a youth, he may not have been an atheist at all.

Under Stalin's (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Was_Stalin_an_atheist) insisting In 1939-11-11, Politburo of the Central Committee has admitted prosecutions of believers "inexpedient". In 1939-11-11 Stalin canceled Lenin's instruction from May, 1st, 1919 for N 13666-2 "About struggle against priests and religion" and gave orders to People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs (NKVD) to release from custody already arrested priests "if activity of these citizens didn't harm the Soviet authority".

Stalin "hated" religion so much, that in 1951-06-27 he gaved "Stalin's Prize" to English clergyman Hewlett Johnson. Various prizes under Soviet authority received and other priests.

[spidergoat]

Communism and fascism do not follow from atheism (http://http://www.asktheatheists.com/questions/50-why-do-atheists-not-focus-on-the-evil-done-by-atheistic-regimes), and neither do the atrocities committed in the name of commnunism and fascism. Atheism is just the gap left by the forced removal of religion for ideological and PR purposes.

[MayanArch]

This is the science forum, right?

FACT: Communist regimes have had an athiest policy, and that they have forced it upon their people under penalty of death.

TESTING THE THEORY: If your people hide from the authorities to conduct religious rituals in secret for fear of facing a firing squad, then the State is killing with an athiest agenda.

Who cares if Stalin went to a religious school, so did Castro. Both had squads of stormtroopers that hunted down, incarcerated and murdered large portions of their people for the crime of practicing religion.

PROOF: None of this is refuted by the remaining KGB or NKVD or any others that took part. The Communists kept meticulous documents just like the Nazis. At the fall of the USSR it was ex-Communists who took upon themselves the task of gathering up the documents and tallying the figures.

Furthermore, the fact that Stalin didnt create or install COmmunism is useless to this conversation. Stalin was not alone in the killing spree. This repeated itself in EVERY SINGLE Communist country, and it repeated itself in the USSR before and after Stalin. Practicing religion has in all Communist countries been a punishable crime which often lead to a firing squad. That is murder in the name of atheism in its purest form.

Richard Dawkings uses 911 to demonstrate that zealots are running rampant killing people. He is right. Anyone that doesnt think that Islamists arent religious zealots who kill for their religions is truly lost.

However, Dawkings also fails to mention that Osama Bin Laden and his crew have many secular reasons that they list as their justification for their killings. Among these have to do with political relationships between Arab governments and the West, along with the management of trade policies, and other purely secular justifications. To state that the Islamists are not religious zealots because amongst their motivations are secular ones would be ridiculous. The same goes for the Spanish Empire at the time of the Inquisition. A lot of the people murdered were murdered so officials could appropriate their wealth, and hence greed was the reason for many of the murders in the Inquisition were secularly motivated.

HOWEVER, to state that either the Inquisition or 911 was a secularist phenomenon would be completely stupid.......................as it is to bring up small exceptions to the fact that Communism forced atheism on millions of people under penalty of death as proof that they somehow didn't.

It really doesnt matter at all what exceptions Stalin made to the rule. Stalin had his police force hunt down, incarcerate, and kill people for the crime of practicing religion. All Communist countries excercised this policy before, during and after Stalin.

[spidergoat]

He didn't do it because of atheism, though. He did it because religion was a threat to his totalitarian rule. That was a time of pseudo-religious uproar called revolution. The revolution could not be questioned, it was antagonistic to intellectualism and philosophical discussion. Nothing about atheism is like this. Atheism is qualitatively different to any ideology, since it is just the name religious people give to one premise, that there is no God (and sometimes, nothing supernatural exists). Religions are full of specific (and sometimes contradictory) instructions to it's believers. Atheism is not intrinsically anti-religion. Islam is, however, specifically antagonistic to non-Mulim people. Christianity is also antagonistic to non-christian people.

[MayanArch]

He didn't do it because of atheism, though. He did it because religion was a threat to his totalitarian rule. That was a time of pseudo-religious uproar called revolution. The revolution could not be questioned, it was antagonistic to intellectualism and philosophical discussion. Nothing about atheism is like this. Atheism is qualitatively different to any ideology, since it is just the name religious people give to one premise, that there is no God (and sometimes, nothing supernatural exists). Religions are full of specific (and sometimes contradictory) instructions to it's believers. Atheism is not intrinsically anti-religion. Islam is, however, specifically antagonistic to non-Mulim people. Christianity is also antagonistic to non-christian people.

The mistake you are making is attributing this to a single person........or a single country for that matter. IT WAS POLICY....and it was State policy that endured many changes of authority throughout EVERY Communist country.

To try to ascribe Stalin's personal motivations to save a handful of priests as proof that Communism in general wasnt forcing atheism under penalty of death is nuts.

Look, Hitler made it a standing order that the Jewish doctor that treated his mother's cancer could never be touched. This doctor was personally protected by Hitler himself. To use that small fact to try to persuade that Hitler didnt hate Jews would be a loosing argument..........as is using some scant facts about Stalin as to divorce Communism for is GLOBAL and UNIVERSAL atheist policy.

This is all very simple: kill in order to force people to be atheist.......and you are killing in the name of atheism.

[spidergoat]

One particular brand of Communism opressed theists, that much is true. I would suggest that any ideology if not allowed to be questioned, is dangerous. Atheism isn't based on faith or ideology but reason and evidence. By itself, it is inherently tolerant.

[Arsalan]

The simple fact of the matter is that communists killed loads of people. Communists were for the vast majority Atheists. In the last century in 2 countries alone we have Atheist communists kill over 60 million people. Then we have had the likes of Friedman concoct an economic theory which has started wars in almost all of South America and which still keeps killing people worldwide. Then we had the people who made the bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Saying that Atheists or Communists didnt kill people because of their religion is an incredible fallacy as Atheists have no religion. That criteria should not apply either because we are talking about the number of people killed. If a theist country kills people or starts war, that is atuomatically attributed to religion. So, lets level the playing field. Every person killed by Atheists or a country led by Atheists will be counted as murder in the name of Atheism. Its only fair. Or are people going to change the way they talk about religion and war? Open their minds to see that religion does not play a major role in starting wars, rather it is all political?

[spidergoat]

Well, you are mistaken there. No one counts WWII as a religious war, even if many of the participants were religious. We don't count Jeffrey Dahmer's victims as the product of religious violence just because he happened to be religious.

[Arsalan]

Youd be surprised at the number of people ive met that do blame it on religion and its not just that. Its the whole mindset that religion is responsible for the vast majority if not all the problems in the world. As if everything else is working out pico-bello...

[iceaura]

If you kill someone in order to stamp out religion because you fear it competes with the supremacy of the state.......you are killing for atheism. No, you are killing for the state, and killing its enemies - adherents of religion, in this case, not theists.

You are confusing religion with theism, and totalitarian state treatment of rival organizations with state interest in personal worldviews.

This, for example, has nothing to do with State objections to compassion, etc, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong It has to do with one organization's objections to the rise in influence of a rival, competitive organization.

Saying that Atheists or Communists didnt kill people because of their religion is an incredible fallacy as Atheists have no religion. There are atheistic religions, and religious atheists. They exist. They are obvious. That is so even if you absolutely deny that Soviet "Communism" was a religion, despite all appearances.

Why do you keep saying things like that ?
The simple fact of the matter is that communists killed loads of people. Communists were for the vast majority Atheists. In the last century in 2 countries alone we have Atheist communists kill over 60 million people. Then we have had the likes of Friedman concoct an economic theory which has started wars in almost all of South America and which still keeps killing people worldwide. Then we had the people who made the bombs used in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Soviet people who did the killing were mostly theists. The Nazi people who did the killing were mostly theists. The people doing the killing in South America were mostly theists, and so are most of the people who follow Milton Friedman's economic theories. The people who dropped the Bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were mostly theists.

So were the people they killed.

You are talking as if Abrahamic monotheism is the only form of religion, and the Abrahamic God the only kind of deity, that there is.

You are also absolving theists of any responsibility for their murderous, evil behavior if an atheist or atheistic theory is anywhere involved in any way in their evil deeds. That is silly. Theists are responsible for their behaviors as anyone else is - if theists kill people, that is not atheism killing people.
Open their minds to see that religion does not play a major role in starting wars, rather it is all political? The two are not mutually exclusive. Politicians find religion very useful in the motivating and launching of wars, religions find political power very useful and ready to hand in their congregations of believers. That is a serious problem with religion in general, theistic ones especially, and Abrahamic monotheisms in particular.

[audible]

here we go again.

Mayanarch and Arsalan, I've posted this up numerous times, isn't it about time. you lot understood it.

People of faith often claim that the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the inevitable product of unbelief. The problem with fascism and communism, however, is not that they are too critical of religion; the problem is that they are too much like religions. Such regimes are dogmatic to the core and generally give rise to personality cults that are indistinguishable from cults of religious hero worship. Auschwitz, the gulag and the killing fields were not examples of what happens when human beings reject religious dogma; they are examples of political, racial and nationalistic dogma run amok. There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its people became too reasonable.

this is a common mistake made by theists, typically those of the fundy type, they believe atheism is essentially socialist or communist in nature. Thus, atheism should be rejected since socialism and communism are evil. How stupid!

the first thing we should note is there is an automatic and almost unconscious assumption made by these theists that their religion is somehow equivalent with captialism.

Communism is not, however, inherently atheistic. It is possible to have communistic or socialistic views while being a theist and it isn't at all wrong to be an atheist while staunchly defending capitalism, which is a combination often found among objectivists and libertarians.
their existence alone demonstrates, that atheism and communism are not the same thing.

is christianity opposed to communism? No, the opposite, actually. There is nothing in the gospels which even so much as suggests a divine preference for captialism, now is there.

quite a bit of what Jesus said supports many of the tenets of socialism and communism. http://latter-rain.com/general/commu.htm
He specifically said that that people should give all they could to the poor and that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.

basic communism states to hold all property in common rather than privately, is practiced by numerous Christian communities now and throughout history. references to it can be found in Acts:

Acts 4:33-35 "With great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all. There was not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need. "
The similarity to Marx's principle of "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" should be obvious.

and here again in Acts:

Acts 5:1-11 "But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. "Ananias," Peter asked, "why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us but to God!" Now when Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard of it.

The young men came and wrapped up his body, then carried him out and buried him. After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter said to her, "Tell me whether you and your husband sold the land for such and such a price." And she said, "Yes, that was the price." Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and died. When the young men came in they found her dead, so they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. And great fear seized the whole church and all who heard of these things."

their deaths served as an example to all the others of what would happen if they, too, held back profits for themselves instead of giving everything to the community.
so we can see that this was the first christian commune(ist) society.

so please lets get away from this silly reference to atheism and communism being the same, the bible is basically a communist manifesto.

[MayanArch]

here we go again.

Mayanarch and Arsalan, I've posted this up numerous times, isn't it about time. you lot understood it.

OK, this is a science forum. Lets do this based on facts, not propaganda or common misconceptions:

1.) Communism is athiest because Communist countries, without exception are atheist by state policy and state decree. Communists are atheist BY LAW. The practice of religion is a crime often punishable by death, incarceration, or some other form of capital punishment. THis has been the case in one way or another in all communist states around the world throughout its 100 year history. Communists arent considered to be atheist by rummor. They are considered to be atheists because Communist governments says so. The fact that some people who would believe in communism or socialism may be atheist, or agnostic, or theist really doesnt make a difference. It is state policy despite of what individual opinions may be.

LAWS ARE FACTS. INTERPRETATIONS ARE OPINION.

2.) Hitler made constant theistic references in his speeches. National Socialism had a distinct theistic view, warped as it may have been, had Christian connotations in exclusion of the Jewish and other faiths. Whatever propaganda you are basing yourself on has no relevance. You have to base it on the facts. Hitler's word was law in the haphazard form of government that the National Socialists practiced. Whatever he wished was made into law. There were theistic connotations to his every speech, aside from the regular Jew hating stuff....there was "in the face of the lord", or "decreed by the creator" type of language constantly used.

I am sorry but your argument is poorly constructed. Neither theism or atheism is inherently ANY kind of government.....it is a form of personal belief. However, governments do adopt either theistic or atheistic policies......and have in fact killed in the name of both.

Christianity is not inherently ANY type of government. This notion that Christianity is inherently socialist is propaganda......again....not fact. Furthermore, it is propaganda circulated in NON-Communist countries by either hippies in the US or liberals in free Europe. This was not, and is not the case in the USSR, China, Cuba, or North Korea. It is a convinient 60's interpretation of communism....not Christianity. There is NOTHING in Christianity about either the redistribution of wealth or the banning of private property.....which are the two most fundamental views of Communism. In fact, Christ pretty much set the tone for the fact that Christianity had nothing to do with commerce or government when he said "Give onto Cesar...."

The founding fathers of the United States were pretty smart men. They came up with a form of government based on their CHristian values, and it had nothing of socialism in it. Christianity is in no way inherently any type of government.............However, it has been adopted by almost all types of government.

In the same way, atheist beliefs are an individual choice. This has nothing to do with how societies are assembled. It is an individual choice that has no inherent reference to law or government. However, just like in CHristianity........many governments have adopted it..........and yes, killed to enforce it.

Killing to force someone to be atheist is no different than if you kill someone to force God on them.

[spidergoat]

China tolerates most mainstream religions, so it is possible for an ostensibly communist country to have religious citizens that aren't considered criminals. The USSR was caught up in a kind of revolutionary fever. Besides, most of their prisoners were not in jail for the crime of having a religion. They did use that as an excuse to dispatch people they considered threatening, but they also used any number of trumped up charges.

[iceaura]

1.) Communism is athiest because Communist countries, without exception are atheist by state policy and state decree. Communists are atheist BY LAW. The practice of religion is a crime often punishable by death, incarceration, or some other form of capital punishment. Again the confusion of organized religion and theism.

You are also denying the religious aspects of Soviet and Chinese and Korean "Communism" (called "Maoism", for example, in China). (North Korea, far from being atheist by decree, has installed a former official as a deity. Theistic religion is a time honored enabler of totalitarian states.)

Communists arent considered to be atheist by rummor. They are considered to be atheists because Communist governments says so. And Saudis are considered heterosexual because their government says so ?

The Soviets beat down religious organizations, also trade unions, farmers cooperatives, fraternal lodges, and the like. Any organization that protected the individual from the State.

Btw: only a small minority of Soviet citizens were officially Communist. There were official procedures involved, including thorough grounding and competence in the teachings of the Prophets, and the taking of oaths, and the demonstration of proper character through good deeds and sincere discipline. I do not know if the rites of induction included a full immersion in sanctified water or not.
Killing to force someone to be atheist is no different than if you kill someone to force God on them. It is very rare, however.

[MayanArch]

Again the confusion of organized religion and theism.

You are also denying the religious aspects of Soviet and Chinese and Korean "Communism" (called "Maoism", for example, in China). (North Korea, far from being atheist by decree, has installed a former official as a deity. Theistic religion is a time honored enabler of totalitarian states.)

And Saudis are considered heterosexual because their government says so ?

The Soviets beat down religious organizations, also trade unions, farmers cooperatives, fraternal lodges, and the like. Any organization that protected the individual from the State.

Btw: only a small minority of Soviet citizens were officially Communist. There were official procedures involved, including thorough grounding and competence in the teachings of the Prophets, and the taking of oaths, and the demonstration of proper character through good deeds and sincere discipline. I do not know if the rites of induction included a full immersion in sanctified water or not.
It is very rare, however.

Yes, and Communism under Gorbachev was very tolerant as well. This doesnt reverse the murders, doesnt give any of the murdered their lives back. Whatever softer form of Communism is now being practiced in China doesnt in any way undo what they did at first.

And, no......hee hee.....I gotta laugh at your interpretation of Kim Yung Il as the God of Communist North Korea. Thats reall